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The_Ick
04-01-2008, 12:28 PM
Branching off another post about inscribing scrolls, how many people would be interested and willing to pay for increased Healing potions. i.e. Potions of Heal (the spell)


With HPs increasing, Cure Serious Potions just doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore and it would definately lesson the burden on the clerics.

Turial
04-01-2008, 12:30 PM
Doesnt the top level of silver flame give something similar...granted I think they have a really bad drawback to them (just cant remember at the moment).

Serpent
04-01-2008, 12:31 PM
I think the introduction of a simple CCW pot or even a potion that mimics the effect of the Vigor spell from the spell compendium would be an excellent addition. Pots are seriously starting to become lacking.

Dimicron
04-01-2008, 12:36 PM
I can get my coffee in a double-shot and triple-shot, I'd like my cure potions the same way. ;)

Though it does go against every PnP rule on pots. Maybe if they doubled the effect of the potions? Since HPs are a bit inflated in DDO, the cure potions effects should be increased also.

oronisi
04-01-2008, 12:38 PM
Doesnt the top level of silver flame give something similar...granted I think they have a really bad drawback to them (just cant remember at the moment).

Yes, higher silver flame potions do the job everyone complains about not having. The drawback is a 30 second debuff that you can live with if you are outside of combat.

There are only 3 problems with them:

1) They are expensive.
2) They require 400 Silver Flame favor (not really a problem)
3) People don't know about them still.

While the debuff puts you out of the fight for 30 seconds, it's a completely workable situation.

KR1
04-01-2008, 12:45 PM
When using a Heal Scroll you need a UMD of what... 40? So if we had heal pots how would that work, ML14 to use and then everyone would run to buy these up and scrolls would become obsolete. But, on the other hand the price for pots, scrolls and wands are something to consider given the repair bill these days. I'm sure thats a topic in another thread somewheres lost in here.

DragonKiller
04-01-2008, 12:52 PM
I would also like to see some sort of healing wand enhancement line for Rangers & Pally's. Getting 20 - 25 HP's back from a CSW wand isn't really cutting it any more.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 12:52 PM
Potions And Oils

A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.

Club'in
04-01-2008, 12:54 PM
If anyone has played Neverwinter, they have heal packs that are of varying levels of strength, and I believe they are enhanced by the character's heal skill. Why can't we do something like that in DDO? Isn't it pretty ridiculous that the heal skill is essentially worthless? These heal packs would allow extra skill point classes like rangers, rogues, and bards to provide some extra healing ooompf. Even a couple points in heal would allow you to use any level of heal pack (maybe level restricted), but it just wouldn't get the bonus healing power that a higher heal skill value would provide.

binnsr
04-01-2008, 12:56 PM
Getting 20 - 25 HP's back from a CSW wand isn't really cutting it any more.

You mean kinda like my fighter quaffing a 20-30 CSW pots after a near death experience? :)

Turial
04-01-2008, 12:56 PM
I would also like to see some sort of healing wand enhancement line for Rangers & Pally's. Getting 20 - 25 HP's back from a CSW wand isn't really cutting it any more.

Though they would be nice...at higher levels your more likely going to get better results by using your innate cure spells combined with a devotion item and either the green blade or gauntlets of eternal faith.

Zaodon
04-01-2008, 12:57 PM
D&D rules say no.
That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.

DDO: Potion of Barkskin (+3)

From SRD:
Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.

DDO: Potion of Shield of Faith (+3)

This spell creates a shimmering, magical field around the touched creature that averts attacks. The spell grants the subject a +2 deflection bonus to AC, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).

DDO rules say yes.

;)

DragonKiller
04-01-2008, 01:14 PM
You mean kinda like my fighter quaffing a 20-30 CSW pots after a near death experience? :)

Yep :D... Just think how nice it would be to have the Pally or Ranger be able to help wand whip you back up :D


Though they would be nice...at higher levels your more likely going to get better results by using your innate cure spells combined with a devotion item and either the green blade or gauntlets of eternal faith.

I don't like having to count on raid loot, and as of right now I'm in no hurry to craft (not a big grinding fan). Also with the limited spell selection, and SP of both a Ranger & Pally it get's hard to take and use healing spells. While I do it, it's for the OOO S**T only cases. Where wand whipping is pretty much after every fight.

As I said, it would be a really nice to have, but it far from breaks the game for me or makes me mad. I just think that it would also help elevate Cleric's from being the only real class that can heal reasonable well (in the case of fleshies that is) and therefor the burden of healing be placed on them. I think it could make for better party dynamic, and more fun, if the Pally's and Rangers could also been seen as more than just a "WAAAYYY back up" healer.

Just throwing out a wish list is all :D

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 01:17 PM
I don't like having to count on raid loot, and as of right now I'm in no hurry to craft (not a big grinding fan).

You can also get the invaders mace, for both Devotion and Healing Lore.

And since most people already have their invaders items you can probably convince them to give you their Invader Tokens (while they're in the chest) too.

Zuldar
04-01-2008, 02:47 PM
D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.

It's true that potions can only go up to level 3, but wondrous items can go up to any level. So all they have to do is make an elixir of heal, similar to the elixirs in the wondrous items section of the dmg. It'd be a one time shot heal effect that you'd have to drink to activate. Problem solved.

juniorpfactors
04-01-2008, 02:56 PM
UMD for the win

jrp

Selinius
04-01-2008, 05:13 PM
Or you could just say that a crazy halfling with levels in the Master Alchemist presige class from the Forgotten Relm's ported into Stormreach and set up shop. Even if he sold Heal pots (cl11) for 3000gp each he would make a killing.

Serpent
04-01-2008, 05:56 PM
D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.

LOL, every fighter and barbarian this side of Xendrik just offered to float more of the bill for clerics and you say no, when there are already potions that break this pnp rule.

See potions of:
Shield of Faith +3,+4,+5
Potions of Barkskin +3
Resist potions 20 and 30
and Potions of Wonder that can mimic effects well beyond the level 3 requirement.

Impaqt
04-01-2008, 06:02 PM
DDO: Potion of Barkskin (+3)

From SRD:
Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.

DDO: Potion of Shield of Faith (+3)

This spell creates a shimmering, magical field around the touched creature that averts attacks. The spell grants the subject a +2 deflection bonus to AC, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).

DDO rules say yes.

;)

Uh, they are still 2nd level Spells.... Just because their effect increases as the caster gains levels doesnt make them higher level spells.

Vormaerin
04-01-2008, 06:10 PM
Those potions don't break the rule. You are confusing spell level with caster level. You can make a potion at whatever caster level the potion maker is. But you can't make one with spells above a certain level in p&p. So Shield of Faith is a lvl 1 spell, whether its cast by a lvl 1 cleric or a lvl 20 cleric.

Deaths_ward
04-01-2008, 06:25 PM
Those potions don't break the rule. You are confusing spell level with caster level. You can make a potion at whatever caster level the potion maker is. But you can't make one with spells above a certain level in p&p. So Shield of Faith is a lvl 1 spell, whether its cast by a lvl 1 cleric or a lvl 20 cleric.

And while barkskin isn't granted to rangers until level 8, it's still only a level 2 'Ranger Spell' (another one of those 3, 3.5 r-tard moments, it was good with just arcane and divine in 2nd ED.) so technically it doesn't break the level restriction either, even though any cleric, wizard or sorcerer would have lvl 4 spells by then.

BlueLightBandit
04-01-2008, 06:40 PM
D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.

*sigh*

This is not D&D, this is DDO.

I'd honestly like to see a side-by-side comparison of all the things that Turbine kept true to D&D, and all the things they "upgraded" (like mob tohit and hit points).

Vormaerin
04-01-2008, 06:46 PM
And while barkskin isn't granted to rangers until level 8, it's still only a level 2 'Ranger Spell' (another one of those 3, 3.5 r-tard moments, it was good with just arcane and divine in 2nd ED.) so technically it doesn't break the level restriction either, even though any cleric, wizard or sorcerer would have lvl 4 spells by then.

Besides which, Barkskin is a lvl 2 druid spell and its far more likely a druid would be taking the brew potion feat and making them than some ranger...

TwilightOracle
04-01-2008, 07:18 PM
Assuming the current conventions are to keep with pnp, perhaps allow players to purchase cure potions created by higher level casters. For example lvl 5 CLW, lvl 10 CMW, and lvl 15 CSW potions. The result would allow a small boost to each potion with would add up over uses (3d8+15 vs 3d8+5=10 extra hp/pot). I think that this would be flexible enough to the devs and not be game unbalancing.

Emili
04-01-2008, 07:20 PM
D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.


Healing in DnD does not work the same as it does in DDO either... the main source of healing in DnD is a physical regen on HP via rest and tending to the wounds... thus where the healing skill comes into play. DnD healing by spell, scroll, potion or wand is usually an after encounter thing ... even lay on hands normally is, these things are not the norm in DnD - rest is. First it takes touching, second people fumbling thru a pack for a potion, scroll or wand is not something you do mid encounter... third people do not carry 100 heal scrolls/potions/4 wands of healing etc... as the bulk of carrying all that is beyond DnD comprehension. While I know the equipment our avatars carry is far from DnD ... the availability of all these items is also inflated 1000 fold.

The problem exists for a number of reasons... 1.) HP is bloody higher than it ever was in PnP, 2.) the cleric design in DDO is an extreme healing class compared to PnP... seriously PnP clerics do not have 20+ heal spells mem'd a day and toss them for 900+ hp, 3.) Lack of touch attacks/AC plus couple this with the fact that DPS by both PC and Mob is 10x-100x and there in lay the reason healing in DDO needs to be so prevalent.

We took a game where healing via spell was a convience not the norm and placed a great emphasis on the feature... and people wonder from day one why domains were never added o the cleric class... it's because they planned all clerics to fall into a quasi heal domain by default.

Invalid_86
04-01-2008, 09:25 PM
There is no such thing as a level 4+ spell in potion form, and there never should be.

The problem isn't the potions, it's the bloat in the rest of the game. This is just yet another example why "just make everything else bigger" doesn't work.

Naso24
04-02-2008, 02:34 AM
Cure Critical pots are also missing. Yet we have wands, scrolls, and spells for this. Even a little better healing capability would be welcome.

Vormaerin
04-02-2008, 06:53 AM
As pointed out.. Cure Critical pots are NOT missing. They are illegal according to the D&D rules. Obviously, not everything in DDO accords with the p&p rules. But the proper way to get lvl 4+ spells sans a spellcaster who knows that spell is to use a wand or scroll. Not use a potion.

Clickies have already turned most non spell casters into mini casters, with UMD adding to the fun. Buy the Silver Flame healing potions if you need more self healing capability.

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 07:45 AM
It's true that potions can only go up to level 3, but wondrous items can go up to any level. So all they have to do is make an elixir of heal, similar to the elixirs in the wondrous items section of the dmg. It'd be a one time shot heal effect that you'd have to drink to activate. Problem solved.

Yes.

And, as has been pointed out in this thread, they already did that.

Get thee to a silver-flame-favor-dealer. ;)

oronisi
04-02-2008, 09:16 AM
Yes.

And, as has been pointed out in this thread, they already did that.

Get thee to a silver-flame-favor-dealer. ;)


Sometimes I think I just ****ed off alot of people and made their ignore list. Either that, or people just don't read.


For those that don't know:

400 Silver Flame favor grants access to a shop where you can purchase:

-100hp heal pots
-250hp heal pots

Both are expensive and both give you a 30 second debuff similar to the Black Abbot death debuff. So you are out of combat for 30 seconds.

jjflanigan
04-02-2008, 09:58 AM
With the exception of some strategies used for the Shroud part 4 / 5, I have never run into an instance where a healer in a group has run out of spell points and had to resort to using a ton of scrolls or multiple wands.

If you want to help them foot the bill...buy them wands or scrolls. Adding in more and more powerful potions to take things further away from "the spirit" of the game and granting people more and more of other classes abilities is not a good thing in my opinion.

Zuldar
04-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Yes.

And, as has been pointed out in this thread, they already did that.

Get thee to a silver-flame-favor-dealer. ;)

Not everybody has the silver flame favor to purchase the potions, and the use of the potions mid combat is questionable at best. What we need instead is a more traditional form of healing without the stat loss if it is to be viable for combat use.

The silver flame potions work well providing the following conditions; you have the 400 silver flame favor, you are not in combat, and you have a con higher then 10. Not exactly the most optimum solution.

Mad_Bombardier
04-02-2008, 01:47 PM
Fancy, schmancy mock Heal potions are fun. But, I'd be happy with more access to CL10 CMW and CSW potions outside of Cryptmoss Sutures and Sporesaps. There's nothing quite like leveling 6 characters and collecting EVERY collectable along the way, only to finally turn in the collectables and get 10 Cryptmoss Sutures and 20 Sporesaps. :(

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 02:07 PM
Not everybody has the silver flame favor to purchase the potions, and the use of the potions mid combat is questionable at best. What we need instead is a more traditional form of healing without the stat loss if it is to be viable for combat use.

Oh you want easy-to-access Heals mid-combat without having to have or be a cleric, or have any UMD?

:rolleyes:


But, I'd be happy with more access to CL10 CMW and CSW potions outside of Cryptmoss Sutures and Sporesaps.

Higher caster level Cure potions and wands should drop in chests the same way Resist potions/wands do. That's a request I can support.

Mercules
04-02-2008, 02:25 PM
There is no such thing as a level 4+ spell in potion form, and there never should be.

The problem isn't the potions, it's the bloat in the rest of the game. This is just yet another example why "just make everything else bigger" doesn't work.

Thank you... This is exactly my belief. "Big numbers look cool!" tends to break games that are based around D4 - D20 number ranges.

Magus_d
04-02-2008, 02:33 PM
There is no such thing as a level 4+ spell in potion form, and there never should be.

The problem isn't the potions, it's the bloat in the rest of the game. This is just yet another example why "just make everything else bigger" doesn't work.

Not that we have prestige classes implemented. And of course we don't really have crafting implemented. But there is a prestige class that allows crafting of potions all the way up to lvl 9 spells.

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 02:43 PM
But there is a 3.0 Forgotten Realms prestige class that allows crafting of potions all the way up to lvl 9 spells.

If the Master Alchemist was updated to 3.5, I'm unaware of it.

And it doesn't fit very well in Eberron. We have Cannith Alchemist Savants, but that allows for entirely different stuff.

oronisi
04-02-2008, 02:53 PM
To further the discussion of raising potion caster levels, does anyone know what a cure serious pot does now and what it could do if it had caster level 15 on it?

Is it currently: 14-29 (avg 21.5)

Potential: 24-39 (avg 31.5)


If so, would that make a huge difference for those with 400+ HP? 10 potions to top off instead of 15 I guess.

Zuldar
04-02-2008, 03:36 PM
Oh you want easy-to-access Heals mid-combat without having to have or be a cleric, or have any UMD?

:rolleyes:



Higher caster level Cure potions and wands should drop in chests the same way Resist potions/wands do. That's a request I can support.

Why yes I do, thanks for asking. Though I'd settle for anything that helps someone with hundreds of hitpoints move his bar more then a smidgeon.

Pyromaniac
04-02-2008, 04:23 PM
Here's another option:

Black Dragon scale armor - one of them has a heal 1/rest clicky on it.

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 04:38 PM
Thank you... This is exactly my belief. "Big numbers look cool!" tends to break games that are based around D4 - D20 number ranges.


"Just make everything else bigger!" doesn't address the core issue. DDO is straining the 3.5 rules system, the solution isn't to just strain it some more.

As you noted there are hard limits built into the system.

Mercules
04-03-2008, 09:48 AM
"Just make everything else bigger!" doesn't address the core issue. DDO is straining the 3.5 rules system, the solution isn't to just strain it some more.

As you noted there are hard limits built into the system.

Which is why many MMOs built around a percentile system. You have a larger range of numbers to work with. Now the difference between 20 and 60 is smaller so you can have items that add 1, 14, 37, 55, 72, or 98 to your to hit and not leave the Die Range. a +1 is a good bonus in a D20 system. A +5 is huge. A +5 on top of a +6 on top of a +2 on top of a +3 with a stacking +2 adding in is game breaking for a D20 based system.

Spells are set up with D6s and D8s in a lot of cases but the HPs are set up at max with maxed out stats, stat boosting items, and multiplicative Enhancements and Feats. This pushes HPs out of a conceivable range of certain spells, potions, and wands. The real solution is not to make the potions bigger, but to make the HP ranges smaller to fit the range of the Dice System they are using. That might just mean that mobs shouldn't do 100 HPs worth of damage on a non-crit hit and hit nearly every time.

EspyLacopa
04-03-2008, 02:30 PM
DDO: Potion of Barkskin (+3)

From SRD:
Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.

DDO: Potion of Shield of Faith (+3)

This spell creates a shimmering, magical field around the touched creature that averts attacks. The spell grants the subject a +2 deflection bonus to AC, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).

DDO rules say yes.

;)

Barkskin: Lv2 Druid/Ranger Spell. PASS
Shield of Faith: Lv1 Cleric Spell. PASS
All that's changed in those two potions you listed is the Caster Level, which doesn't affect the availability of the potion.

Caster Level is not the same as Spell Level.

Vizzini
06-30-2008, 01:08 PM
Your only out of combat for 30 seconds if you suck without buffs :D




Both are expensive and both give you a 30 second debuff similar to the Black Abbot death debuff. So you are out of combat for 30 seconds.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-30-2008, 01:39 PM
D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.

Normally I'd agree with you about sticking to PnP...except no one in PnP has 600 hp because no one can dream of the enhancements and con levels you get in this game.

I think cure crit pots make sense.

Kris_P._Letus
06-30-2008, 02:30 PM
or how about (sorry if its already posted...just poked my head in while my girl finishes her lunch) an enhancment line? kind of like how clerics/casters have an enhancment for there wand powers, fighters and barbarians get a pot enhancment line? ive been sayin this for months. itd be kinda nice. +50% bonus per pot drank. :D a chance to crit yer imbibing??

Kris_P._Letus
06-30-2008, 02:31 PM
Normally I'd agree with you about sticking to PnP...except no one in PnP has 600 hp because no one can dream of the enhancements and con levels you get in this game.

I think cure crit pots make sense.

qfdt!

Turial
06-30-2008, 02:32 PM
or how about (sorry if its already posted...just poked my head in while my girl finishes her lunch) an enhancment line? kind of like how clerics/casters have an enhancment for there wand powers, fighters and barbarians get a pot enhancment line? ive been sayin this for months. itd be kinda nice. +50% bonus per pot drank. :D a chance to crit yer imbibing??

Seems like it mirrors the human improved healing line. It just goes higher.

Roman
06-30-2008, 02:38 PM
I would like to see a healing equivalent to Major Mnemonic Enhancement pots. Make them loot/reward drops like mnemonics. Useful and obtainable, but expensive and not readily available in large quantities so their use wouldn't break game balance.

Dimicron
06-30-2008, 03:00 PM
I would like to see a healing equivalent to Major Mnemonic Enhancement pots. Make them loot/reward drops like mnemonics. Useful and obtainable, but expensive and not readily available in large quantities so their use wouldn't break game balance.

Sure, then on Ghallanda We'll have a buy-in for raids of X mnemonic pots and X uber healing pots... don't know if I like that idea. I think it should be tied to favor, and they should be asa available as regular pots, and not have any bad side effects.

Or else enable us to drink more pots at once.

Turial
06-30-2008, 03:10 PM
Sure, then on Ghallanda We'll have a buy-in for raids of X mnemonic pots and X uber healing pots... don't know if I like that idea. I think it should be tied to favor, and they should be asa available as regular pots, and not have any bad side effects.

Or else enable us to drink more pots at once.

It really seems like the best way to do this would be to eliminate the negative stats from the silver flame pots, I would keep the slowed portion cause it would eliminate the 40's chug in each hand.

djinni69
06-30-2008, 03:29 PM
The Silver Flame potions are not functional in any way. Why would I grind 400 Silver Flame favor for a potion that only works between encounters, and I can only take one before the group begins belly-aching about slow play??? Seriously, it's a nice sentiment but it just doesn't work. Especially when we need it in the middle of an encounter. There's no way I'm gonna down one of those in the Vale. Just no freaking way ... never ... at any time. Maybe at the end ... oh wait, there's shrines. Ok, never gonna do it.

It's just so much easier to give a few heal scrolls to my group's Bard/Cleric/Rogue instead. And way less *pokemyeyesout* annoying than grinding favor ... ugh

EDIT - and my 600 hp Barbarian would need to down 3 of those things. That's 90 seconds of picking my nose, instead of skewering baddies! No Barbarian will stand for it ;) Right Kargon?!?!?!

tenga
06-30-2008, 10:56 PM
D&D rules say no.



whens the last time you've fought a mob in pnp that had a million hp? i think we've passed the 'd&d rules trump all' arguement a few mods ago

tenga
06-30-2008, 10:58 PM
When using a Heal Scroll you need a UMD of what... 40? So if we had heal pots how would that work, ML14 to use and then everyone would run to buy these up and scrolls would become obsolete. But, on the other hand the price for pots, scrolls and wands are something to consider given the repair bill these days. I'm sure thats a topic in another thread somewheres lost in here.

these wouldn't make scrolls obsolete, since the pots would probably scaled to be much more expensive. if you compare csw pots to scrolls, teh scrolls are alot more wallet friendly.

Strakeln
07-01-2008, 12:30 AM
D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.Easy fix: potion of cure serious wounds 10th, similar to the wands of blur/shield/resist

fefnir3284
07-01-2008, 01:06 AM
D&D rules say no.

That's what wands (spells up to 4th level) and scrolls (any spell) are for. And they have limits on them accordingly.

DND also says there is no way for a barbarian level 16 to have 1000 hps, but we do here. Everything is inflated, and as such this game is no longer dnd, its ddo (a mmo). so I say add a double potency pot or a triple one.

Zaodon
07-01-2008, 07:57 AM
DDO: Potion of Barkskin (+3)

From SRD:
Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.

DDO: Potion of Shield of Faith (+3)

This spell creates a shimmering, magical field around the touched creature that averts attacks. The spell grants the subject a +2 deflection bonus to AC, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).

DDO rules say yes.

;)

Quoting myself, because precisely *0* people understood this post.

Are the spells I quoted 1st-3rd level? Yes.
Do these Potions in DDO come in different levels of power based on CASTER level? Yes. (Barkskin=lvl 2, Barkskin (+3)=lvl 6)
Do Cure Serious Wounds potions exist in DDO? Yes.
Are Cure Serious Wounds (+8) potions (a higher caster level) allowable in DDO by 3.5 D&D Rules? Yes.
Are Cure Serious Wounds (+15) potions (a higher caster level) allowable in DDO by 3.5 D&D Rules? Yes.

Hello? McFly?

EspyLacopa
07-01-2008, 08:32 AM
Quoting myself, because precisely *0* people understood this post.

Are the spells I quoted 1st-3rd level? Yes.
Do these Potions in DDO come in different levels of power based on CASTER level? Yes. (Barkskin=lvl 2, Barkskin (+3)=lvl 6)
Do Cure Serious Wounds potions exist in DDO? Yes.
Are Cure Serious Wounds (+8) potions (a higher caster level) allowable in DDO by 3.5 D&D Rules? Yes.
Are Cure Serious Wounds (+16) potions (a higher caster level) allowable in DDO by 3.5 D&D Rules? Yes.

Hello? McFly?
While you can make them. . .they would still only heal 3d8+15 HP, since that's where Cure Serious Wounds caps out.

Kotter
07-01-2008, 08:39 AM
I believe that the potions are fine as is. Beyond that why do you need a cleric in group. The whole point is the group dynamic and with Improved pots you wouldn't need either the cleric or a group for a lot of quests.

Zaodon
07-01-2008, 11:01 AM
I believe that the potions are fine as is. Beyond that why do you need a cleric in group. The whole point is the group dynamic and with Improved pots you wouldn't need either the cleric or a group for a lot of quests.

We already have potions that cure 3d8 hitpoints.
We already have potions that cure 100 and 250 hit points with a drawback if you have Silver Flame faction of 400.

How does adding potions that cure 3d8+15 (caster level 15 Cure Serious Potions) change anything ?

Largo_Kyber
07-01-2008, 12:38 PM
1. Get the bracers from Hound that have 20% healing amplification or craft an item with +30% healing amp.

2. Take the improved recovery line +30 healing amplification (human).

3. Get a finger necklace (LOTD) +10% healing amplification.

They all stack and heal pots now heal me for around 50 pts on average. I can heal back up to full (470 HP) for around 10 pots now.

There is another thread in the Fighter Forums detailing how the stacking works if anyone is interested.

Zaodon
07-01-2008, 12:42 PM
1. Get the bracers from Hound that have 20% healing amplification or craft an item with +30% healing amp.

2. Take the improved recovery line +30 healing amplification (human).

3. Get a finger necklace (LOTD) +10% healing amplification.

They all stack and heal pots now heal me for around 50 pts on average. I can heal back up to full (470 HP) for around 10 pots now.

There is another thread in the Fighter Forums detailing how the stacking works if anyone is interested.

You left one suggestion out of your list:

- create lvl 15 Cure Serious Potions that cure 3d8+15 hit points, exactly the same way that Turbine created Barkskin (+3) pots and Shield of Faith (+3) pots.

Oh wait, that was the OP of this thread (essentially).

EspyLacopa
07-01-2008, 01:07 PM
You left one suggestion out of your list:

- create lvl 15 Cure Serious Potions that cure 3d8+15 hit points, exactly the same way that Turbine created Barkskin (+3) pots and Shield of Faith (+3) pots.

Oh wait, that was the OP of this thread (essentially).

Actually, the OP was asking for Potions of Heal, which is certainly not a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds (CL15).

Branching off another post about inscribing scrolls, how many people would be interested and willing to pay for increased Healing potions. i.e. Potions of Heal (the spell)


With HPs increasing, Cure Serious Potions just doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore and it would definately lesson the burden on the clerics.

You're the first person to bring up the idea of CSW Potions with higher Caster Level.

Zaodon
07-01-2008, 01:09 PM
Actually, the OP was asking for Potions of Heal, which is certainly not a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds (CL15).
You're the first person to bring up the idea of CSW Potions with higher Caster Level.

Sorry, my bad. I foolishly assumed that the poster I was responding to had read the entire thread and saw the conversation change once it was pointed out that Heal potions cant exist due to D&D rules.

EspyLacopa
07-01-2008, 01:23 PM
Sorry, my bad. I foolishly assumed that the poster I was responding to had read the entire thread and saw the conversation change once it was pointed out that Heal potions cant exist due to D&D rules.

Just went through the entire thread:


Started out asking for Potions of Heal: Was denied because of the core rules concerning potions
Moved onto Potions of Cure Serious Wounds CL15: Was accepted by several people as perfectly reasonable, though several stated that it still wouldn't be enough,
which leads into this: People complaining about the massive inflation of HP on both sides of combat (monsters and players), and wanting potions that can keep up with the inflated HP totals.

Sue_Dark
07-01-2008, 01:44 PM
I wouldnt mind seeing CSW pots in loot. We already see wands, so why not.

I certainly wouldnt mind being able to buy CSW pots at a comparable price to the existing pots. (look at diff in CLW/CMW and increase accordingly)

I also like the idea of adding to or even doubling the effect of pots in game now. This is not DnD this is DDO, never in the history of DnD did a Character start off with 40+ HP. A CLW pot in loot should be a find, not "junk". Yes, for some they might be a find, for a few levels, but for most it's "blah, got another pot".

My personal pref would have to be increasing the current pot effects as that *should* require the least development time and offer more control. Double or triple them on Risia and see how they work out, then tweak up/down for live release. Unfortunately the odds are that none of these suggestions will ever happen.

The game started off loosely based on 3.5 ruleset. This implies house rules in effect and changes to make the game mmo compatable. Trying to drive it to be more 3.5 or even 4.0 would make ddo not ddo. Trying to drive toward 4.0 is just a plain bad idea. Dont change the rules mid-race, lest your runners quit running. If someone wants a game wrapped up tight in 3.5/4.0/1.0/whatever ruleset, perhaps they should go build it. The game I like has already been built and people whining about it not being 100% 3.5 are really starting to **** in my cheerios.

Largo_Kyber
07-01-2008, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Zaodon- You left one suggestion out of your list:
- create lvl 15 Cure Serious Potions that cure 3d8+15 hit points, exactly the same way that Turbine created Barkskin (+3) pots and Shield of Faith (+3) pots.


Well I was not suggesting that they add any new potions to the game. I was simply saying to those who may not know, that by using healing amplification items (which sometimes stack- separate discussion) you get much better results from the current Cure Serious pots in game.

I've felt a dramatic difference in playstyle, survivability, and cleric spell point totals by upping my healing amplification to 50%.

Might be a good alternative for those tanks who solo alot and tire of drinking 30-40 pots to heal between battels.

xanvar
07-01-2008, 05:04 PM
Maybe if they add brew potion feat and allowed metamagic feats to work in the potion creation process then this would help alleviate the process. Would some clerics make some pp selling potions....of course but that is just as much a part of DnD and hack and slash.

Hafeal
07-01-2008, 06:08 PM
2) They require 400 Silver Flame favor (not really a problem)

*cough* uh, that is a lot of favor. My main has 2300+ favor and still does not have 400 silver flame favor. I would guess you have to run all of the Abbott pre-raid but not the raid itself? I have run the first two sets of necro through elite ... the last 5, not sure.


*sigh*

This is not D&D, this is DDO.

I'd honestly like to see a side-by-side comparison of all the things that Turbine kept true to D&D, and all the things they "upgraded" (like mob tohit and hit points).

Amen. I agree with your sentiment on a side-by-side comparison. Of course is that by 3.5 rules? 4.0? 1.0?

Fetchi
07-01-2008, 08:54 PM
If anyone has played Neverwinter, they have heal packs that are of varying levels of strength, and I believe they are enhanced by the character's heal skill. Why can't we do something like that in DDO? Isn't it pretty ridiculous that the heal skill is essentially worthless? These heal packs would allow extra skill point classes like rangers, rogues, and bards to provide some extra healing ooompf. Even a couple points in heal would allow you to use any level of heal pack (maybe level restricted), but it just wouldn't get the bonus healing power that a higher heal skill value would provide.

Excellent idea indeed.:)

MysticTheurge
07-01-2008, 09:52 PM
DDO is not D&D, yes, you're all correct.

However it's irrelevant in this case; the reason that there aren't Potions of Heal in the game are exactly the same in both games.

It would be bad game design.

If you want to be able to Heal yourself, then either a) be a cleric (or someone else who can cast the spell, should they ever add such a class), b) get enough UMD to be able to use the scrolls or c) be a halfling and get the dragonmarks.

If they were to add Potions of Heal, they would immediately sap major benefits from those three things (particularly the halfling's dragonmark).

As has been pointed out several time already, there are already ways, in the game, to increase the effectiveness of the potions you do have access to.

Aesop
07-01-2008, 09:59 PM
DDO is not D&D, yes, you're all correct.

However it's irrelevant in this case; the reason that there aren't Potions of Heal in the game are exactly the same in both games.

It would be bad game design.

If you want to be able to Heal yourself, then either a) be a cleric (or someone else who can cast the spell, should they ever add such a class), b) get enough UMD to be able to use the scrolls or c) be a halfling and get the dragonmarks.

If they were to add Potions of Heal, they would immediately sap major benefits from those three things (particularly the halfling's dragonmark).

As has been pointed out several time already, there are already ways, in the game, to increase the effectiveness of the potions you do have access to.

Hey MT glad to see ya

Been a little worried about ya

oh wait there is a thread here isn't there.


um... I'm just gonna go with What MT said cause I need sleep and I frequently enough agree with him that I can be pretty sure that I will here on the subject... of... oh Potions of Heal... yeah bad voojoo

Aesop

Sue_Dark
07-02-2008, 07:16 AM
Potion of Heal = bad idea, yes.

I dont, however, see how it could be a bad thing to increase the effectiveness of existing potions slightly to moderately. As I previously suggested, they could put them on Risia and let them roll there for a few months to see how things looked before bringing the final product to live servers.

How difficult would it be to add say 1d-whatever to the existing pots and test em for balance? Too strong, ok drop 1d-whatever and adjust the mod at the end. I see it as a form of compensation for inflating the hp of everything in the game (players and mobs) to levels where the standard CLW pot is only a truely viable healing agent for a L1 mage/rogue and just a tickle for the melee classes (generally).

EspyLacopa
07-02-2008, 07:38 AM
Fun idea:

Improving cure potions, in two parts!

Change the rolled portion of all cure spells, any source, from 1d6+2 to 1d4+4
Add Potions of CLW(5), Potions of CMW(10), and CSW(15)

First part is in keeping with how things such as d10s and d6s are rolled (1d6+4 and 1d3+3 respectively), while the second part is in keeping with things like the Barkskin +3 and Shield of Faith +3 potions.

Let's look at the numbers of these, old and new:
Old:

Potion of Cure Light Wounds: 50 gp, cures average of 6.5 hp
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds: 300 gp, cures average of 14 hp
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds: 750 gp, cures average of 21.5 hp

New:

Potion of Cure Light Wounds, CL1: 50 gp, cures average of 7.5 hp
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, CL3: 300 gp, cures average of 16 hp
Potion of Cure Light Wounds, CL5: 250 gp, cures average of 11.5 hp
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, CL5: 750 gp, cures average of 24.5 hp
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, CL10: 1000 gp, cures average of 23 hp
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, CL15: 2250 gp, cures average of 34.5 hp

debo
07-02-2008, 08:20 AM
1. Get the bracers from Hound that have 20% healing amplification or craft an item with +30% healing amp.

2. Take the improved recovery line +30 healing amplification (human).

3. Get a finger necklace (LOTD) +10% healing amplification.

They all stack and heal pots now heal me for around 50 pts on average. I can heal back up to full (470 HP) for around 10 pots now.

There is another thread in the Fighter Forums detailing how the stacking works if anyone is interested.

That is a sure way to gimp yourself. Two important inv. slots and about... jeez at work but what 10 enhancement points? Maybe more? All so you can get 50 points a pot? The ends don't justify the means imo. If you can pull it off inventory wise then yea that would be nice... but I wouldn't sacrafice it at the expense of a +6 stat item or chaos guards etc... and I definetely wouldn't waste all those enhancment points.

Oxvon
07-02-2008, 08:35 AM
Potions of Wonder can cast heal... and can't you trade in the runes from the new raid explorer area to get a clicky with heal on it?

Turial
07-02-2008, 10:50 AM
That is a sure way to gimp yourself. Two important inv. slots and about... jeez at work but what 10 enhancement points? Maybe more? All so you can get 50 points a pot? The ends don't justify the means imo. If you can pull it off inventory wise then yea that would be nice... but I wouldn't sacrafice it at the expense of a +6 stat item or chaos guards etc... and I definetely wouldn't waste all those enhancment points.

One could also switch items around before drinking pots. I and I would imagine a lot of other secondary healers do it all the time.

tenga
07-24-2008, 11:05 PM
Potions of Wonder can cast heal... and can't you trade in the runes from the new raid explorer area to get a clicky with heal on it?

the heal clicky isnt really a clicky, just a 1-shot, then it's depleted.



Sure, then on Ghallanda We'll have a buy-in for raids of X mnemonic pots and X uber healing pots... don't know if I like that idea. I think it should be tied to favor, and they should be asa available as regular pots, and not have any bad side effects.

Or else enable us to drink more pots at once.

playing for 2 years, i have never been in a raid with a "buy-in" for mnemonic pots. i dont understand why a healing version of these would be anymore overpowering than mnemonic pots.

MysticTheurge
07-25-2008, 08:51 AM
the heal clicky isnt really a clicky, just a 1-shot, then it's depleted.

You mean it's kind of like a "Heal Potion"?

Galapas
07-25-2008, 09:34 AM
Quoting myself, because precisely *0* people understood this post.

Are the spells I quoted 1st-3rd level? Yes.
Do these Potions in DDO come in different levels of power based on CASTER level? Yes. (Barkskin=lvl 2, Barkskin (+3)=lvl 6)
Do Cure Serious Wounds potions exist in DDO? Yes.
Are Cure Serious Wounds (+8) potions (a higher caster level) allowable in DDO by 3.5 D&D Rules? Yes.
Are Cure Serious Wounds (+15) potions (a higher caster level) allowable in DDO by 3.5 D&D Rules? Yes.

Hello? McFly?


You could even go beyond this and remain consistent with the alterations to PnP rules that DDO has already made.

In PnP, maximize, empower etc. all raise spell level, so you couldn't have a maximized potion of cure serious wounds. Since DDO does not treat metamagic spells as higher level, you could have maximized, empowered potions of cure serious, caster level 15 curing 80-90 hp. It's a bit cheesey, but if we blur our vision a bit and don't look closely it's still D&D.

Another alternative, mentioned above, is the "Wondrous Item" catagory. I have found "Keoughtum's Ointments" in game, so the mechanic already exists. It equipped to the trinket slot, and could be used on others or myself to cure damage or various effects. The neat thing about wondrous items is that you can throw in all sorts of balancing effects.

I would recommend a wondrous item that requires the use of both hands and a full round action (unequip weapon and shield, equip item in 2 hands, use item). Some healing balm that you spread all over your body. There should really be a drawback to solving your problems with money. Simply missing a couple of attacks is too easy.

Turial
07-25-2008, 09:37 AM
...There should really be a drawback to solving your problems with money. Simply missing a couple of attacks is too easy.

-10 to each stat and saves plus reduced movement speed for 30 seconds is the current cost for healing potions.

DoctorWhofan
07-25-2008, 01:10 PM
Here's a suggestion between the DDO and PnP:

Have CCW Potions (namethem something else if they want) but only allowed to carry X amount at a time? say, like 20? Or Kargon's Super Tasty Ham?

or

Give to the cleric.

I have a feeling that the latter will be the option of choice. I know DDO ISN'T PnP, but it does try to follow PnP rules as much as possible. And I think CCW potions weren't added due to the partying aspect ofthe game. As for Pallys and Rangers, I highly recommend not dumping UMD, if you want your character to use them. my Pallys can use CCW wands if needed, though with some misfires. Besides, I have LoL.


The Silver Flame is nice, but I have one cleric stuck at 399.

Turial
07-25-2008, 01:27 PM
...
The Silver Flame is nice, but I have one cleric stuck at 399.

Until blighted was fixed ....so was I. Now I loves me some silver flame items.

Aesop
07-25-2008, 03:51 PM
Why not just make Cure Crit Wands available for purchase that way clerics and other healers can use them... after all you already have Repair Crit available right?

Implement Crafting that would allow people to make Clickies of Cure Serious (or Critical)Wounds (5/rest max on each)... heck technically by the rules you could have this make Heal and Raise Dead Clickies... though it would be super expensive and take up a lot more room than Pots do... but there in lies the sacrifice I suppose

Implement the Spells Lesser Vigor, Vigor and Greater Vigor and Pots of like. (each supplies more HP than their relative level equivilant Cure Spell)... though to really make it DDO like you may want to modify them to be d2 per click (lesser) d3 regular and d4 Greater... that way Metamagic will affect them.

Seneca_Windforge
07-25-2008, 06:30 PM
You know, it might be easiest just to automatically max out the random element of all Cure X wands and potions. It's simple, and people wouldn't have to keep track of stacks of Potions of Cure Serious Wound and Potions of Cure Serious Wounds (15th). DDO already maxes out hit points at each level, and frankly it's not a huge increase over the way the game calculates 1d8 now (1d4+4, I believe), though it would help some.

There does need to be a middle step between Cure Serious potions and the Silver Flame stuff, though (like...Healing Surges, maybe). And frankly, the DnD rule that you can't make potions of higher than 3rd level is irrelevant. What the book says should never, ever be used as a set of shackles when there is a problem that needs to be solved, especially in this game. However, Cure Critical Potions, in this case, are not the solution -- it's 4d8+7 instead of 3d8+5, and it would be crazy expensive for that extra little boost.

JakLee7
07-25-2008, 06:47 PM
What about making a healing pot that doesn't stack.
WAIT WAIT WAIT - think about this for a sec.
Make it moderately effective, less than a cleric spell for example and bound. How many free spots do you have in your inventory normally? If you want any loot you have to have an open spot. What you would likely see is people carrying 3-5 or maybe 3-10 at all times. In the end it would be a nice supplement to standard healing & actually would work well as small burst battlefield healing without removing the need for a "real" healer.

DoctorWhofan
07-26-2008, 03:24 AM
Until blighted was fixed ....so was I. Now I loves me some silver flame items.

Already havethat on elite, BEFORE it was busted. The only things I haven't done is the Pre-raid on rlite and the raid at all.

DoctorWhofan
07-26-2008, 03:26 AM
What about making a healing pot that doesn't stack.
WAIT WAIT WAIT - think about this for a sec.
Make it moderately effective, less than a cleric spell for example and bound. How many free spots do you have in your inventory normally? If you want any loot you have to have an open spot. What you would likely see is people carrying 3-5 or maybe 3-10 at all times. In the end it would be a nice supplement to standard healing & actually would work well as small burst battlefield healing without removing the need for a "real" healer.

Nice idea in theory: In loot heavy quests, yeah, but if you see some people, they dont even pick up everything out of a chest in a raid on elite!! That's why I said make it son you can only carry 10 at a time.

BlackSteel
07-26-2008, 05:26 PM
alternating beaver charges with potions cuts your time and potion usage in half. ^^

Just one more reason to roll a wf.

Rog
07-26-2008, 07:02 PM
what ever happen to pot of cure serious+3,+4 or +5

Slayer918
07-26-2008, 08:20 PM
New:

Potion of Cure Light Wounds, CL1: 50 gp, cures average of 7.5 hp
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, CL3: 300 gp, cures average of 16 hp
Potion of Cure Light Wounds, CL5: 250 gp, cures average of 11.5 hp
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, CL5: 750 gp, cures average of 24.5 hp
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, CL10: 1000 gp, cures average of 23 hp
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, CL15: 2250 gp, cures average of 34.5 hp


So I pay 3x as much for 1.4x as much healing?

Not really a great solution if you ask me.

Zuldar
07-26-2008, 11:35 PM
According to the rules potions can't use a spell of 3rd level or higher (with the exception that Turbine house ruled some 4th level spells). However, they could just implement a Wondrous Item that duplicates a higher level heal spell. It would a one use item in elixir form, coincidentally not unlike a potion.

Wondrous Items solve all.

Aesop
07-26-2008, 11:37 PM
According to the rules potions can't use a spell of 3rd level or higher (with the exception that Turbine house ruled some 4th level spells). However, they could just implement a Wondrous Item that duplicates a higher level heal spell. It would a one use item in elixir form, coincidentally not unlike a potion.

Wondrous Items solve all.

Which 4th level+ spells have they placed in potion form?


Aesop

Zuldar
07-27-2008, 01:07 AM
Which 4th level+ spells have they placed in potion form?


Aesop

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but the point isn't about 4th level spells. It's about using making better use of the Wondrous Item category of items.

Aesop
07-27-2008, 09:44 AM
I can't think of any off the top of my head, but the point isn't about 4th level spells. It's about using making better use of the Wondrous Item category of items.

see my post above about crafting clickies then. As far as I know they haven't done any pots above 3rd level. but I think that when crafting is completed they should have something to help with this matter as well. I also think they should expand out the use for repair Kits and Healers kits Healers Kits to Heal an amount of Damage based on the Heal skill and Curing Disease and Poison effects using the DC of the effect as the DC check of the effect to determine success. repair Kits to Repair Damage to Warforged based on repair Skill and for repairing damage to items on the fly up to a percentage equal to the Skill rating

just opinions

Aesop

MysticTheurge
07-27-2008, 10:02 AM
Wondrous Items solve all.

And you can get wondrous items that cast Heal from the new Subterrane collectible system.

Zuldar
07-27-2008, 08:01 PM
And you can get wondrous items that cast Heal from the new Subterrane collectible system.

Hardly the most efficient means of distribution.

Amaras
07-27-2008, 08:12 PM
And you can get wondrous items that cast Heal from the new Subterrane collectible system.

It casts it Twice.. for 50 tokens. Also can not be re-used.

GlassCannon
07-27-2008, 11:30 PM
It casts it Twice.. for 50 tokens. Also can not be re-used.

A price which seems extremely steep for the tiny reward it offers.

GlassCannon
07-27-2008, 11:32 PM
Which 4th level+ spells have they placed in potion form?


Aesop

In the dream I had, a fella used a Disentigrate potion in combat against Beholders(Drink and it acts like you are the caster, and assumes the Metamagic Properties of the original potion crafter), and later on a Rogue used a Greater Heroism Potion for a boost to trap-monkey-ing.

Sadly, DDO has yet to catch up with what it SHOULD be.

MysticTheurge
07-28-2008, 07:48 AM
Hardly the most efficient means of distribution.


It casts it Twice.. for 50 tokens. Also can not be re-used.

So now the complaint isn't that "Heal Potions" aren't in the game, it's that they're too hard/expensive to get? :rolleyes:

Talcyndl
07-28-2008, 08:34 AM
2) They require 400 Silver Flame favor (not really a problem)
3) People don't know about them still.



The reason people don't know about them is because 400 Silver Flame is the hardest favor level to hit. MUCH harder than 1750 total. In fact, I'd bet only a 1-2% of players have 400 Silver Flame (if that).

Zuldar
07-28-2008, 12:40 PM
So now the complaint isn't that "Heal Potions" aren't in the game, it's that they're too hard/expensive to get? :rolleyes:

Unless you're a cleric or arcane wf you could easily use up 20 to get the necessary collectibles. Makes it kinda self-defeating.

Seems to me that the alternative could easily make a good plat sink (which we definitely need seeing as we don't have any real money sinks) without introducing more needless grind into the game.

Turial
07-28-2008, 01:57 PM
The reason people don't know about them is because 400 Silver Flame is the hardest favor level to hit. MUCH harder than 1750 total. In fact, I'd bet only a 1-2% of players have 400 Silver Flame (if that).

I would say its more of the penalties that drinking the silver flame potions have that make them less known. If they only slowed you for 30 seconds rather then -10 stats and saves + slow then everyone would grind for them because they wouldn't have been written off as useless and thus no one talks about how good they are.