PDA

View Full Version : Acrobat II and Q-staves



Oran_Lathor
04-01-2008, 11:21 AM
Heya All,

Before I begin, I would just like to say that this is not a complaint. I think the new rogue specialties look pretty good over all. What I would like to do, though, is suggest that - if acrobats are being given an attack speed increase with staves - that staves be made finessible.

I have no idea if there is a PnP precedent for this or not, but I feel it's necessary in order for the q-staff bonus to be worthwhile.

Take for example a hypothetical level 16 drow rogue with 16str and 34dex. The rogue has been using a rapier, with the drow enhancements, and a +5 heavy mithral shield. In switching to a staff, our hypothetical rogue will (as it stands now) lose 7 points of AC, 11 points of to-hit, 2 points of damage, 4 points of critcal range, and some blocking DR. In return he will gain a ~10% (?) attack speed increase.....


Now, that just seems like an awful lot to give up for some flavour. Granted some may still do it, and others will likely build (or have) Strength - based rogues who will like it.... but for me, acrobats are dextrous, and use q-staffs (apparently), and therefore staves should be made finessible.... I think, and stuff.

What say you guys?

cdbd3rd
04-01-2008, 11:30 AM
Hmmm....

There is a certain amount of precedent in this, given the actual use of a staff is more agility than brute force. (but they still hurt. a lot.)


This would fly in the face of PnP game mechanix, but DDO is no stranger to that....

I'll /sign up in behind this idea.


If it doesn't make it as a mainstream idea - perhaps offer 'finessed quarterstaff' as an exotic weapon choice?

Oran_Lathor
04-01-2008, 11:33 AM
Right, wasn't sure about the PnP mechanic as I haven't played since 2nd edition.... I would be okay with the new exotic weapon option also.

DareDelvis
04-01-2008, 11:34 AM
Hmmm....

There is a certain amount of precedent in this, given the actual use of a staff is more agility than brute force. (but they still hurt. a lot.)


This would fly in the face of PnP game mechanix, but DDO is no stranger to that....

I'll /sign up in behind this idea.


If it doesn't make it as a mainstream idea - perhaps offer 'finessed quarterstaff' as an exotic weapon choice?

Or maybe an enhancement as a feat seems pretty cosly.

roadkill525
04-01-2008, 11:41 AM
I never understood why quarterstaffs and spears were not finessable weapons. someone useing strength to swing a quarterstaff like a great club? you could but its the same thing as swinging a rapier like a greatsword.

thats another thing... I don;t know if it already does or not but if ya useing a 1 handed weapon with nothing in yer offhand the game should have you use it 2 handed, in pnp ya could use any 1 handed weapon 2 handed if you wished.

coolpenguin410
04-01-2008, 12:47 PM
I never understood why quarterstaffs and spears were not finessable weapons. someone useing strength to swing a quarterstaff like a great club? you could but its the same thing as swinging a rapier like a greatsword.

thats another thing... I don;t know if it already does or not but if ya useing a 1 handed weapon with nothing in yer offhand the game should have you use it 2 handed, in pnp ya could use any 1 handed weapon 2 handed if you wished.

You can use any non-light, one handed weapon in two hands for 1-1/2 STR bonus to damage. A bit of a difference there.

Quarterstaves should be possible to finesse if used as two weapons. You would take the same penalties as using a one handed weapon and a light weapon in your off-hand. I have been planning on designing a quarterstaff specc'ed monk when mod 7 is released.

I like the new Theif-Acrobat II enhancement, but I'm a bit confused on the quarterstaff thing. Also, if you become immune to knockdown effects, balance no longer has a use. Why keep giving it a bonus?

roadkill525
04-01-2008, 12:54 PM
You can use any non-light, one handed weapon in two hands for 1-1/2 STR bonus to damage. A bit of a difference there.

Quarterstaves should be possible to finesse if used as two weapons. You would take the same penalties as using a one handed weapon and a light weapon in your off-hand. I have been planning on designing a quarterstaff specc'ed monk when mod 7 is released.

I like the new Theif-Acrobat II enhancement, but I'm a bit confused on the quarterstaff thing. Also, if you become immune to knockdown effects, balance no longer has a use. Why keep giving it a bonus?

not sure what the diference is, sept you specified non light. I'm used to the 3.5 rulebook where there are light weapons 1-handed then two handed weapons. but I;ll have to check into it, I dont' remember now if it specified that ya couldn't do it with light weapons.

but the 1 and a half sr dammage for weilding a weapon with 2 hands the same you get for weilding a two handed weapon, if that was the point ya was gettin at.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 01:28 PM
I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

LeLoric
04-01-2008, 02:15 PM
The q-staff thing kinda confuses me unless they do make it finesse the whole enhancement line is based around dex I think it should provide the ability to finesse it if i were using it as a str based weapon its really no more than a great club aesthetically and way worse statistically.

btw I look at the q-staff feature of this and just think of Natt Gann in the Market

Shade
04-01-2008, 02:31 PM
Seems logical to me that its not finessable.

I mean its a large 2handed blunt weapon.. To make it hurt someone you need to hit them pretty hard, else its not a leathal weapon at all, but just a toy... To work a weapon as finesse - you don't apply brute strength, and thus would not deal enough damage to get thru someones AC, and thus should not gain any to-hit bonus with the weapon.

Other finesse weapons let you get a to-hit bonus with them, because they really don't require much force to hit someone with, like a rapier.. Or that they are small and light enough that you can target the more vulnerable areas of a monster to hurt it, like a light mace. A quarterstaff is neither of those, not deadly enough to hurt without force, and much too large and heavy to be used to carefully target vulnerable areas.

And overpowered because well, 2handed strength x1.5 bonus, and power attack x2 + finesse attack bonus isn't meant to happen in pnp. 2handed weapons are never finesse weapons for that reason.

That said I think its fine to have the attack speed boost with way of the acrobat. It's not that great, but its a cool addition, probably just for flavour.

The real powerful benefits of the enhancements are mainly the knockdown imunity, the 10% runspeed increase (like gaining that awesome barbarian ability for free without splashing a lvl is pretty powerful) and the xtra 2 uncanny dodges too.

There is one already finesseable quarterstaff in the game tho which will work very nicely with this enhancements: The shining Cresent... It is considered a sickle for proficiency and finesse purposely - so perfect for a rogue, and a quarterstaff in terms of animation, so the attack speed boost will apply to it. So yea use that.. To make all wstaffs finesseable is a nerf to that weapon as well, so thats not cool.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 02:33 PM
And overpowered because well, 2handed strength x1.5 bonus + finesse attack bonus isn't meant to happen in pnp. 2handed weapons are never finesse weapons for that reason.

Clearly, anything that would make the quarterstaff finesse-able would also have to make it act as a light (or one handed) weapon with regards to strength bonuses and power attack damage.

Shade
04-01-2008, 02:35 PM
Clearly, anything that would make the quarterstaff finesse-able would also have to make it act as a light (or one handed) weapon with regards to strength bonuses and power attack damage.

Should also make it act as a double weapon and use the TWF feats too.

But all of that requires allot more tech that the game doesn't have that the devs aren't likely wanting to spend the time to add.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 02:37 PM
Should also make it act as a double weapon and use the TWF feats too.

But all of that requires allot more tech that the game doesn't have that the devs aren't likely wanting to spend the time to add.

I can't imagine it's that hard to flip the "2-handed? Y/N" switch.

Arianrhod
04-01-2008, 02:39 PM
If they implemented double weapons, q-staves should certainly be among them (and finessable, I suppose, if double weapons are in general). Wouldn't expect to see it until then, though.

LeLoric
04-01-2008, 02:40 PM
Should also make it act as a double weapon and use the TWF feats too.

But all of that requires allot more tech that the game doesn't have that the devs aren't likely wanting to spend the time to add.

Then why give the bonus to a dex based class?

It's possible its being implemented already as part of the monk as a monk uses the q-staff in more of a finesse mode than a str based swing. I don;t think its humanly possible to use a staff in a flurry of blows type attack while using brute force to make sure it hits its definately more of a dextrous attack.

Shade
04-01-2008, 02:47 PM
I can't imagine it's that hard to flip the "2-handed? Y/N" switch.

Heh, whos to say such a switch exists. If I was a coder I probably wouldn't design such a switch, seems like xtra work for something not needed at the time.

Shade
04-01-2008, 02:51 PM
Then why give the bonus to a dex based class?

To add flavour.
The same reason barbarians get improved trap sense.. Or any number of almost-never used enhancements, there just there for variety. And this one is a bonus to an already great enhancement so cant hurt at all.

And there are allot of strength based rogues. The devs realise that and thus did not force everyone into a cookie cutter "dex based class" via enhancements. The same reason they cut out the rogue dextery IV enhancement.

A strength based THF dwarf rogue with the thf feats, power attack, etc and this enhancement would be great. Every enhancement doesn't have to cater perfectly to the standard halfling dex based rogue.

LeLoric
04-01-2008, 02:58 PM
To add flavour.
The same reason barbarians get improved trap sense.. Or any number of almost-never used enhancements, there just there for variety. And this one is a bonus to an already great enhancement so cant hurt at all.

And there are allot of strength based rogues. The devs realise that and thus did not force everyone into a cookie cutter "dex based class" via enhancements. The same reason they cut out the rogue dextery IV enhancement.

A strength based THF dwarf rogue with the thf feats, power attack, etc and this enhancement would be great. Every enhancement doesn't have to cater perfectly to the standard halfling dex based rogue.

And I never disputed strength based rogues but this enhancements lends itself to a dex based build in all ways except the q-staff bonus.

Tier I requires tumble and balance which are dex based skills. The clickie gives +4 dex. Uncanny dodge gives a bonus to ac and reflex save both dex based.

Tier II much more of the same.

I am not saying its a bad enhancement i alrady have tier 1 on my rogue and will be able to use the qstaff somewhat as i have a 26 str but dex would be better and be more in tune with the entire enhancement line

geoffhanna
04-01-2008, 05:03 PM
I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

I agree with MT. Otherwise you're creating the first finesse THF. Which I expect to have unintended balance consequences.

BillBob
04-01-2008, 05:06 PM
I do support this idea to make Q-staves finessable and i don't believe it would be very overbalanced due to the 2 handed bonuses.

Firstly, ~28/28 Str/Dex based rogues with power attack can already utilize the 1.5 str bonus from Q-staves and will only obtain the ~10% alacrity from this enhancement. The approx. dps offered from this is not going to overshadow a high-crit range 2wf strength based rogue as is. (with full 2wf feats mind you ;) )

Secondly, having Q-staves finessable will open up more options for the high dex rogue when it comes to weapon strategy. The Q-staves will offer an option of punching through DR of mobs, even with lower strengths due to the 1.5 str bonus. Punching through DR is pretty much the best utilization of the Q-staff (with the effects that go with it) as the restricted crit range prevents it from being an expedient medium to deliver the many crit-based effects.

As for Monks, i am not sure how this will affect their combat ability, be it pure or multi class. I'm sure there is a sweet spot somewhere between str and dex where you could possibly eek out some extra benefit.

"Rogues with Sticks!" :O

Deaths_ward
04-01-2008, 06:01 PM
I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

Occasionally I see your posts on the boards and they just stand out and say "C'mere devs got something useful for you to work on." This is one of those.

I say that because Way of the Thief-Acrobat II grants a bonus that doesn't currently fit in with the rest of its abilities (not saying it isn't already a great enhancement, or that it isn't powerful in its own right.) and using the first tier of its line to sync its bonus up would be useful.

For all the people crying out that a 1 + 1/2 STR damage weapon would be to powerful as a finesse weapon, um.....Dex builds generally don't have the greatest strength scores so they don't get a big a benefit, and if that's not good enough then hell tack this on as a modification to RWoT-A I.

"You treat quarterstaves as a light weapon for the purpose of finessability, to hit, and damage bonuses."

BlueLightBandit
04-01-2008, 06:47 PM
Wait... Quarterstaves?

I've heard of them, but I don't know that I've ever seen anybody using them.

I figured they were just there as a placeholder, like all those extra doors in the marketplace, or the double mace section in the AH.

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 07:28 PM
Seems logical to me that its not finessable.

I mean its a large 2handed blunt weapon.. To make it hurt someone you need to hit them pretty hard, else its not a leathal weapon at all, but just a toy... To work a weapon as finesse - you don't apply brute strength, and thus would not deal enough damage to get thru someones AC, and thus should not gain any to-hit bonus with the weapon.
That's not logical at all.

If you accept the existing rule that the light mace is finesse in one hand, then it makes perfect sense that a quarterstaff held with two hands is also finesse. Both weapons weigh 4 lbs, so the staff user actually has less weight supported by each hand.

Furthermore, the staff actually makes more sense as doing damage without much strength. It's striking leverage is over twice as long (even when the intermediate hand grip is considered), so it can achieve damaging impact force with less strength behind it.


Or that they are small and light enough that you can target the more vulnerable areas of a monster to hurt it, like a light mace. A quarterstaff is neither of those, not deadly enough to hurt without force, and much too large and heavy to be used to carefully target vulnerable areas.
That's hilarious, and backwards from reality. If there's any finesse weapon which doesn't make sense, it's the Light Mace.


And overpowered because well, 2handed strength x1.5 bonus, and power attack x2 + finesse attack bonus isn't meant to happen in pnp. 2handed weapons are never finesse weapons for that reason.
Untrue. The Player's Handbook includes the Spiked Chain as a core weapon which is two-handed and finesse. It requires the investment of special training in your character build to use properly, which corresponds to how the hypothetical finesse quarterstaff requires investing in Way of the Acrobat enhancements.

Also untrue is the idea it would be unbalanced... a higher strength multiplier just isn't that great for someone whose dexterity is higher than his strength anyway.


The shining Cresent... It is considered a sickle for proficiency and finesse purposely - so perfect for a rogue, and a quarterstaff in terms of animation, so the attack speed boost will apply to it. So yea use that.. To make all wstaffs finesseable is a nerf to that weapon as well, so thats not cool.
It would only be a nerf if everyone got Way of the Acrobat for free, or at least if everyone could train Way of the Acrobat for low cost. But in reality it is an expensive enhancement few will take, especially considering it blocks them from Way of the Assassin.

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 07:33 PM
I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.
That idea was suggested last year in this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130586).

That also looks like the thread where Knockdown immunity came from. (Although it was also bumped in another thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=137637), although mostly in the form of a bonus, not total immunity)

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 07:41 PM
I can't imagine it's that hard to flip the "2-handed? Y/N" switch.
It would be fairly hard to cope with the issue of the offhand end of the quarterstaff lacking any magical enhancement.

If you follow the D&D rules, then it's not attractive to fight with a masterwork stick in your left hand. Or if you disregard the D&D rules, then it is possibly unbalanced to allow a ranger to grab a +5 quarterstaff of greater undeadbane and function as if he had two copies of such a rare and expensive weapon enhancement.

The imbalance might not be bad, considering that the TWF quarterstaff is missing out on the critical range and multiplier the character could get by using khopeshes or rapiers. But it's not an easy concern to dismiss.

KristovK
04-01-2008, 08:25 PM
Don't know so much about making the staff a finesse weapon, not in PnP for certain, but I can see the logic behind the request. As it stands, the staff IS a double weapon in PnP, if you wish to use it that way, which naturally incurs all the standard penalties for twf, one end being considered medium and the other light, 1d6 and 1d4 damage. And AD, a magic staff is magic from one end to the other, so yes, a +5 of greater undead bane being used as a double weapon would indeed be the same as using 2 +5 weapons of greater undead bane, one doing 1d6 and the other doing 1d4. Standard for double weapons, whatever it's magic, it applies to both ends, however you can have double weapons that have different magics applied to each end, seen on double bladed swords, orc double axes, gnome hooked hammer, and dwarven urgrosh, since each end actually has different parts and can be enchanted with different magics, especially the urgrosh and gnome hammer, slash/pierce and blunt/pierce combos possible. Keep in mind, there is no 1.5x damage bonus if you use these weapons as double weapons, that gets lost and you take the standard damage/0.5x damage for twf.

From a personal perspective, finesse with a staff..yes, in reality many of the moves used in the traditional martial forms don't use brute strength with one at all times, it's more speed and control then brute force, but that actually goes for almost any melee weapon. Speed and control are the most effective tools when using melee weapons generally speaking, that's a fact that anyone who's used them real life knows. However, there's times when picking up a staff and swinging it like Babe Ruth going for that home run just can't be beat :)

/signed

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 08:39 PM
And AD, a magic staff is magic from one end to the other, so yes, a +5 of greater undead bane being used as a double weapon would indeed be the same as using 2 +5 weapons of greater undead bane, one doing 1d6 and the other doing 1d4. Standard for double weapons, whatever it's magic, it applies to both ends
That is entirely and explicitly wrong. You can go read the rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
and
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons


Double weapons have separate magical bonuses for their different heads. If randomly determined, the second head of a double weapon has the same enhancement bonus as the main head (01-50 on d%), doubling the cost of the bonus, or its enhancement bonus is one less (51-100 on d%) and it has no special abilities. All magic weapons are masterwork weapons.

PS. The bit about the quarterstaff doing 1d6/1d4 is also incorrect. They ends are the same, so the do the same damage.

Vormaerin
04-01-2008, 09:06 PM
Yeah, if you have a quarterstaff that's magical you have to enchant it at a cost equal to enchanting two weapons. Same thing with all the other double weapons.

So it would either be silly expensive in DDO or it would have to function at the Main hand: +5 greater bane/off hand +4 weapon. And no one would use a quarterstaff to dual wield if the latter. Letting someone get two greater banes or banishers for the price of one would be a bad thing.

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 09:11 PM
Letting someone get two greater banes or banishers for the price of one would be a bad thing.
Since DDO's Banishers only work on crits (unlike the silly-overpowered Banisher in D&D), it wouldn't much matter that you could get dual 20/x2 Banish weapons for the same price as a 19-20 Banish shortsword or an 18-20 Banish rapier.

However, an effect independent of crits might be overpowered on a quarterstaff. +1 Quarterstaff of Disruption anyone? However, I'm not sure if that would be imbalanced to the degree where it's a problem. The majority of DDO monsters are not immune to critical hits, so TWF player characters will prefer to go Khopesh+Kukri or some other combo to get awesome crits, rather than dink away with a 20/x2 wooden stick.

Consider the +5 Quarterstaff of Greater Evil Outsider-bane that constantly drops from the Reaver's Fate...

DNDJESS
04-01-2008, 10:50 PM
I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

Mystic, I don't say this often to you, but that is a very good and very fair suggestion :D


Clearly, anything that would make the quarterstaff finesse-able would also have to make it act as a light (or one handed) weapon with regards to strength bonuses and power attack damage.

This, on the other hand, is a bad idea. This would make the quarterstaff totally, completely, and unarguably weaker than using two 1-hand weapons. If you don't get any strength or damage bonus, why in the world would you use one weapon with two possible effects instead of two weapons with four possible effects (3 vs. 6 if if you count material type)?

Oh, and to everyone saying that Qstaffs are strength-based weapons and not dex-based, keep in mind that every finessable weapon is still strength-based, since there is no dex mod for damage.

Chaosjihad
04-01-2008, 11:17 PM
A quarterstaff is neither of those, not deadly enough to hurt without force, and much too large and heavy to be used to carefully target vulnerable areas.

Heh. Come on over to my place, but bring your safety goggles. I'd hate for you to lose an eye. ;)

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 07:18 AM
It would be fairly hard to cope with the issue of the offhand end of the quarterstaff lacking any magical enhancement.

Why should the offhand end of a quarterstaff be lacking any magical enhancement?

When/if double weapons are added, they're going to have to have both ends enchanted without doubling the minimum level, in order for them to be of any use at all.

That is, a double mace has to have the enchantments of two separate maces without having twice the ML of the given mace.

So, if you have a ML: 10 enchantment on one end, you should have an ML: 10 enchantment on the other end and the item should be ML: 10.

Weapons don't have a higher ML when you're dual wielding them. It would be insane to try to make the ML of a double weapon based off the total enchantments to the weapon as opposed to the enchantments on on end or the other.

In that way, it would be perfectly reasonable for existing "double weapons" (i.e. quarterstaves) to be considered as having the same enchantment on both ends. Yes, particularly powerful enchantments are going to make particularly powerful quarterstaves, but that's just how it works. It's even in the rules you quoted from the SRD. "If randomly determined, the second head of a double weapon has the same enhancement bonus as the main head (01-50 on d%)." So there's a 50% chance that all quarterstaffs have the same enchantment on both ends.

Once they get a system in place for actually generating enchantments to both ends of a double weapon, then they can change how things behave. But it seems logical, currently, to treat both ends of a quarterstaff as being enchanted in the same way.

Which is all kind of beside the point, because I never meant they should turn the quarterstaff into a double weapon when it's being finessed, I just meant they should turn off the extra strength and power attack damage from being two-handed.

honkuimushi
04-02-2008, 07:30 AM
To be honest, finesse is one place where 3.x screwed up. I like that it was added, but the way they did it made it a mechanically inferior option. There are a few situations where it's decent, but in general, stength based builds are better off. One of the problems was the decisions about what weapons were finessable. Anyone who has seen a staff demonstration or seen the staff used in a martial arts movie would be hard pressed to say that it isn't a finessable weapon. Now back in 2nd Edition, staffs were divided into 2 weapons. The quaterstaff, the thicker, iron shod European version, and the bo, the lighter, unshod Eastern version. They shared a proficiency, but the quarterstaff did 1d6 damage to small, medium and large targets. The bo did 1d6 to small and medium targets, but only 1d4 to large targets. Perhaps 3.x should have kept that distiction and made the bo finessable, but with slightly lower damage, maybe 1d4+1 or something. They didn't. But, it is screwed up enough that I really wouldn't mind deviating from 3.5 rules here.

The quarterstaff rules in PnP are kind of wierd. It can be used as a 2 handed weapon, or a dual weapon. When used as a dual weapon, you have to use your strength for attacks by your main hand, but since your off hand is treated as a light weapon, you can finesse those blows. So you can end up in the odd situation of having a much higher attack bonus with your off hand while using the same weapon.

Perhaps more important is balance in DDO. Right now, I almost never see people using quarterstaffs. About the only people I see using them are casters in the harbor. Once they get out of the harbor they usually have a couple of one handed spell effect weapons to dual wield. You cannot use a quarterstaff as a dual weapon and currently, they don't have each end seperately enchanted. Yes, if dual wielding is added, a quarterstaff with a good mod would be like having 2 of them, but is it really that hard to find 2 decent weapons for other weapons? And you can't mix and match like using a seeker and a crit activating weapon with a quarterstaff like you can with other weapons. In this, you really can't comare DDO with PnP. When crafting is intoduced, I could see making each end craftable at double the cost. But for random weapons, just leave them as is.

After all, the quarterstaff does moderate damage with inferior crit properties, 20 x 2. It can't be made of special DR matching materials either. Even if it's finessable, i don't see many people dropping rapiers or even short sword for them. Technically they do 1.5 strength damage as 2 handed weapons. But if you're using weapon finesse, your strength probably isn't that high anyways. Also THF doesn't work with them. You have to waste that feat to get the later THF line feats, which do afeect it to a lesser extent. So if an enhacement that allows quaterstaffs to be finessed is added, you have to spend APs to gain some use out of the weakest two handed weapon in the game. I would prefer to have an enhancement that requires Way of the Acrobat I and costs 1 or 2 APs and allows you to use weapon finesse with a quarterstaff. You should still be able to get the 1.5 strength bonus and use Power Attack. Maybe that and the 10% bonus from Acrobat II will actually lead to people using quarterstaffs. It would still be enourmously feat intensive. To really take advantage you'd need Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, THF, ITHF, and GTHF. That's 5 feats. Improved Critical would be nice but not as good as with martial weapons. And unless you multiclassed, you wouldn't be able to take the proposed STHF. Depending on how the mok works, that might be an interesting multiclass as well.

The quarterstaff has the coolest looking animation in DDO. It's sad that noone actually uses one. Maybe with this change, and maybe a few others(allowing the THF feats to grant full bonuses to Acrobats?) one class will be able to use quaterstaffs effectively.

roadkill525
04-02-2008, 07:42 AM
I'd like to see an enhancement line for finessable weapons that work kinda like the pristige class from one of the complete books where you could add up to a certin amount of yer int score to dammage with finessable weapons. because they are easier to hit vital targets, and you are smart enough to know the most vital areas. forget what the class was called though. if no one can remember I'll look it up

Angelus_dead
04-02-2008, 07:54 AM
Why should the offhand end of a quarterstaff be lacking any magical enhancement?
Because... the D&D rules says it's lacking?


Yes, particularly powerful enchantments are going to make particularly powerful quarterstaves, but that's just how it works. It's even in the rules you quoted from the SRD. "If randomly determined, the second head of a double weapon has the same enhancement bonus as the main head (01-50 on d%)." So there's a 50% chance that all quarterstaffs have the same enchantment on both ends.
Which doubles the price of the weapon, eating up the rest of the treasure value being randomly generated, and probably even invalidating this item as being part of the treasure roll.


But it seems logical, currently, to treat both ends of a quarterstaff as being enchanted in the same way.
Prehaps, but since that would mean the invention of new game rules unprecedented by D&D, it cannot be said to be as easy as flipping a switch.


Which is all kind of beside the point, because I never meant they should turn the quarterstaff into a double weapon when it's being finessed, I just meant they should turn off the extra strength and power attack damage from being two-handed.
Well that would be totally pointless. You'd allow people to finesse the quarterstaff, so long as they treat it like a light mace that denies them the use of a shield or offhand weapon. Who would willingly do that?

Dailus
04-02-2008, 07:56 AM
Really the fact of the matter is gymnist and acrobats in real life require a great deal of strength and dexterity to be really effective I see no reason to shy away from this fact in the fantasy version. Also as many of you have pointed out the quarter staff is not finessable in PnP. Why should we stray away from the table top rules the game is based on? In NWN clubs were finessable should we do the same here just so rogues can effectively weild a muckbane or so every twfer can be a muck killing machine? I have seen the argument that no one uses a quarter staff and making it finessable would be a good incentive to use them, but how many ppl actually use a club as a weapon instead of a spell enhancment? How about scale male or hide, maybe we should do away with those or bend the rules somehow to make them more attractive? My vote is to stick to the rules and let the players decide if the want to take advantage of that enhancment line.

-Dailus

roadkill525
04-02-2008, 08:19 AM
I don't think clubs were finessable in NWN... I remember having a problem because of that (havign a rogue guard not being able to use the guards club)

and per pnp rules light weapons are finessable. my DM said even though its 2 handed quarterstaffs are light weapons. after all the spiked chain, and I believe the 3 section staffs both 2 handed weapons that were also finessable?

Mad_Bombardier
04-02-2008, 10:02 AM
Wait... Quarterstaves?

I've heard of them, but I don't know that I've ever seen anybody using them.

I figured they were just there as a placeholder, like all those extra doors in the marketplace, or the double mace section in the AH.Quarterstaff is the only simple 2H weapon available to my melee pure Cleric. I find them on the AH all the time and get great use from them, especially versus non-crittable targets. Holy Qstaff of Undead Bane, of Disruption, of Construct Bane, of Everbright, etc.

I've been championing staves as finessable weapons for a while now. But, I think it depends entirely on use/implementation. Implemented as double weapon = Finessable. Implemented as 2H weapon for x1.5 STR and double PA = not finessable (essentially a simple proficiency lesser greatclub). Default could be 2H weapon as it is now. And differentiation could be as easy as dragging the staff into a weapon set. Drag it once (or just hotkey from inventory) = 2H weapon. Drag it twice (same as making an offhand weapon set) = TWF.

Vormaerin
04-02-2008, 10:46 AM
. The majority of DDO monsters are not immune to critical hits, so TWF player characters will prefer to go Khopesh+Kukri or some other combo to get awesome crits, rather than dink away with a 20/x2 wooden stick.


Yeah, the effectively unlimited availability of high end weapons does undercut the value of a double weapon getting a 'free' enhancement. Still, it would be significantly more expensive to get two high end khopeshes or rapiers than one quarterstaff, particularly for the middle of the road players who don't have a stack of everything laying around.

But I would be amazed if they implemented proper dual weapons in DDO, so its kind of a moot point. The quarterstaff is the only one that might see much use. All the others are exotic weapon proficiencies and you'd be better off taking Oversized fighting than exotic: odd dual weapon if you wanted that effect. Quarterstaff, at least, wouldn't cost any feats.

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 01:54 PM
(scratches head)

Not sure what the devs are getting at here. Why pigeonhole thief acrobats into one weapon? Isn't 3.5 about less pigeonholing?

Why quarterstaffs? They are not particularly helpful when tumbling- in fact they often get in the way- and are one of the poorer implemented weapons in the game.

True you could talk about finessing but then consider this- finesse should only apply when using the weapon as a dual weapon, and only to the off hand attacks. Remember that when being used as a dual weapon the main attack is considered a one handed weapon, the off attack a light weapon, so only the off attack gets the finesse bonus and none of the attacks get the 1.5x Strength damage bonus.

Next consider that we'd need proper dual weapon rules. We'd need to option to use staffs either way (as MT already pointed out), we need rules for enchanting each end of the quarterstaff seperately, and the ability to choose which end you are using when attacking with only one end as if the staff was a two handed weapon.

So yeah, what are these guys up to?

DNDJESS
04-02-2008, 04:49 PM
(scratches head)

Not sure what the devs are getting at here. Why pigeonhole thief acrobats into one weapon? Isn't 3.5 about less pigeonholing?

The precedent has already been set for this by the Clerics' 'Follower of.....' line, each of which specializes in one specific weapon. This line also introduced the idea of automatically granting a 'feat' with the enhancement, since the line you choose also gives you a bonus weapon profficiency. So including the ability to make Qstaffs finessable when you choose Way of the Acrobat certainly wouldn't stray from DDO's development philosophies.

I keep seeing people claiming that making Qstaffs finessable would be unbalanced. Can someone please explain to me how it would be overpowered as compared to normal two-hand weapons on a high strength character?

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 04:55 PM
The precedent has already been set for this by the Clerics' 'Follower of.....' line, each of which specializes in one specific weapon. This line also introduced the idea of automatically granting a 'feat' with the enhancement, since the line you choose also gives you a bonus weapon profficiency. So including the ability to make Qstaffs finessable when you choose Way of the Acrobat certainly wouldn't stray from DDO's development philosophies.

I keep seeing people claiming that making Qstaffs finessable would be unbalanced. Can someone please explain to me how it would be overpowered as compared to normal two-hand weapons on a high strength character?

Religious orders using a specific weapon has DnD precedence- see the favored weapon entries in the dieties section. Acrobats, however, do not have this.

Reread my post. There is no reason why staffs should not be finessable. But under DnD rules they would only be so when used as a dual weapon (negating the x1.5 Strength bonus) and only with the off hand attacks, as the main attacks are considered to come from a one handed weapon.

DDO is adding a bonus with no background to a class in a weapon that is poorly set up in the game. So, yeah, it's a head scratcher.

Angelus_dead
04-02-2008, 05:25 PM
DDO is adding a bonus with no background to a class in a weapon that is poorly set up in the game. So, yeah, it's a head scratcher.
Sorry wrong. Turn to the Thief-Acrobat prestige class entry in the D&D book. Look at the painting of the example Thief-Acrobat.

See that thing in her hand? It's a quarterstaff. Acrobats wielding weapons are normally depicted with a quarterstaff- it's simply the weapon that makes most sense for the class theme.

For DDO's Way of the Thief-Acrobat to give quarterstaff bonuses makes perfect sense. The choice of a speed bonus instead of an attack bonus is the questionable part.

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 05:37 PM
So what, it's in a painting. Not really a selling point. DnD hardly bases it's bonuses to classes around what they are carrying in a picture, and is that the only weapon that they are seen to carry?

Have you ever actually tried to tumble while carrying a six foot pole? It doesn't help at all. Is a six foot pole going to really help you balance? Or jump? Nope.

So why again are quarterstaffs big with acrobats? Or is it just coincidence? Might as well say that clerics should get a crossbow bonus because they have pictures of them carrying them.

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 05:40 PM
Have you ever actually tried to tumble while carrying a six foot pole?

Oddly enough, the D&D rules don't have any sort of "encumbrance" penalty for wielding large weapons.

Presumably it wouldn't have been that hard to have a "Weapon Check Penalty" akin to the "Armor Check Penalty" if they really wanted to.

Thus, in D&D, it's no harder to tumble with a six foot pole than it is to tumble with a dagger.

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 05:42 PM
Oddly enough, the D&D rules don't have any sort of "encumbrance" penalty for wielding large weapons.

Presumably it wouldn't have been that hard to have a "Weapon Check Penalty" akin to the "Armor Check Penalty" if they really wanted to.

Thus, in D&D, it's no harder to tumble with a six foot pole than it is to tumble with a dagger.


That's true. But it doesn't add a bonus either.

LeLoric
04-02-2008, 05:47 PM
I thin the biggest issue here is why even have q-staff as a bonus apparently because its in some picture in a sourcebook, or maybe some guy at the local circus uses a plole to balance a tightrope?

In all reality tying q-staff into this enhancemnt was a bad idea anyways its a completely dex based enhancement then add a weapon that isnt dex based unless you change the rules of the game slightly?

Not a very well thought out idea imho

BlueLightBandit
04-02-2008, 06:38 PM
Because... the D&D rules says it's lacking?

*sigh*

Once again boys and girls... This is not D&D, this is DDO. DDO left D&D rules behind several years ago.

Angelus_dead
04-02-2008, 06:39 PM
So what, it's in a painting. Not really a selling point. DnD hardly bases it's bonuses to classes around what they are carrying in a picture, and is that the only weapon that they are seen to carry?
Do I have to spell it out?

The painting is based on the underlying concept of a fantasy combat acrobat. It represents the idea of what looks and feels good for an acrobat to use in battle. The same reasons the artist decided it would look good to put a quarterstaff in the picture mean it would be fun for developers to put it in the game.


Have you ever actually tried to tumble while carrying a six foot pole? It doesn't help at all.
It helps a whole lot. Especially when trying to tumble in a way that is tactically helpful in combat- vaulting over obstructions to escape the reach of your enemies. The pole itself also helps parry attacks or simply keep enemies at a distance from you... and without some way to achieve that effect, tumbling in battle is even more suicidal.

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 06:44 PM
Well that would be totally pointless. You'd allow people to finesse the quarterstaff, so long as they treat it like a light mace that denies them the use of a shield or offhand weapon. Who would willingly do that?

People who want an increase in attack speed from Way of the Thief Acrobat.

KristovK
04-02-2008, 06:54 PM
That is entirely and explicitly wrong. You can go read the rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
and
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons



PS. The bit about the quarterstaff doing 1d6/1d4 is also incorrect. They ends are the same, so the do the same damage.

Did you read the two pages you linked? Gonna have to say you didn't or you wouldn't have linked them, they don't support your argument very well. One DOES mention that creating a magical double ended weapon costs x2 as much, that's it. The other one has a subnote that double ended weapons have a 50% chance of EACH end being the same and a 50% chance of one end being +1 less and without any special abilities when you randomly determine the difference, which I'm not used to seeing happen, standard is that a double weapon has the same magic on both ends, which the note even supports. Again..did you actually read them? The double weapon rule is usually applied to things like double bladed swords, orc double axe, urgrosh and gnome h/h, not quarterstaffs..it's not like there's 2 heads on a quarterstaff like the others, maybe end caps, which can change the damage to a pierce type on occasion...don't see that listed in those pages you linked either...again, players know these little things and tend to take them for granted. Also, a quick examination of all the magical quarterstaves listed shows that none of them mention which end is magical and which isn't. Of course, only a few of them are considered magical weapons, but those are clearly missing any mention of either end being of lesser enchantment.

And thanks for pointing that out about the damage though, I missed that, was looking at another weapon for the damage.

*edit*
Just saw this and had to laugh.


Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
Well that would be totally pointless. You'd allow people to finesse the quarterstaff, so long as they treat it like a light mace that denies them the use of a shield or offhand weapon. Who would willingly do that?

Are you aware that you can't use a shield or offhand weapon WHILE using a 2handed weapon? Using the staff as a double weapon takes nothing away but the 1.5 damage bonus and adds the extra attacks of using two weapons.

Angelus_dead
04-02-2008, 07:10 PM
it's not like there's 2 heads on a quarterstaff like the others, maybe end caps, which can change the damage to a pierce type on occasion...don't see that listed in those pages you linked either...again, players know these little things and tend to take them for granted.
You don't see it? Well, it's there. It is completely explicit, and not something you have to infer by combining several facts from multiple places. The only double weapon in the random treasure table for D&D is the quarterstaff, and attached to the quarterstaff entry is the comment that the separate head is costed against the treasure value in addition to the primary head.

KristovK
04-02-2008, 07:48 PM
You don't see it? Well, it's there. It is completely explicit, and not something you have to infer by combining several facts from multiple places. The only double weapon in the random treasure table for D&D is the quarterstaff, and attached to the quarterstaff entry is the comment that the separate head is costed against the treasure value in addition to the primary head.

First page you linked says nothing about whether or not existing items have different enchantments on each end, it actually only says you have to spend x2 the price to enchant both ends, doesn't even say you don't HAVE to spend x2 the cost if you only enchant one end. Of course, we know as players that we can make that call and only spend the normal price, but it's NOT explicitly stated in the rules now is it.

Second page gives instructions on how to determine random magic items, and it does indeed give the subnote ruling on double weapons, and if you'd actually read the entire page AND the entire list, you'd have seen that that subnote is given for ALL the double weapons, which are all listed as possible items on the random weapon list NOT just the quarterstaff..double bladed sword, orc double axe, dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, and the gnomish h/h. [eaten by cube]

DNDJESS
04-02-2008, 08:07 PM
So what, it's in a painting. Not really a selling point. DnD hardly bases it's bonuses to classes around what they are carrying in a picture, and is that the only weapon that they are seen to carry?

Have you ever actually tried to tumble while carrying a six foot pole? It doesn't help at all. Is a six foot pole going to really help you balance? Or jump? Nope.

OK, yet another person wants to argue reality in a fantasy game, so here goes:

What is the name of the ability? Answer: Way of the Acrobat
What could a dextrous Acrobat do with a pole in combat? Answer: more than just swing it like a club I'm sure. There are many different kinds of spinning, vaulting attacks that a skilled acrobat could do with such a weapon.

A pole won't help balance? Ever hear of something called a tightrope walker?
A pole won't help you jump? Ever hear of pole vaulting?

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 08:17 PM
OK, yet another person wants to argue reality in a fantasy game, so here goes:

What is the name of the ability? Answer: Way of the Acrobat
What could a dextrous Acrobat do with a pole in combat? Answer: more than just swing it like a club I'm sure. There are many different kinds of spinning, vaulting attacks that a skilled acrobat could do with such a weapon.

A pole won't help balance? Ever hear of something called a tightrope walker?
A pole won't help you jump? Ever hear of pole vaulting?

You apparently missed the part where a quarterstaff is only about six feet long (about 4 feet for a small character)- a useless length for pole vaulting and of dubious use as a tightrope balance.

Spinning and vaulting attacks are actually not restricted to just quarterstaffs- in fact they are better suited to many other smaller, less cumbersome weapons or one where one hand is always free.

I've actually tumbled with a pole. It is not a particularly handy object to take with you into a roll.


Do I have to spell it out?

The painting is based on the underlying concept of a fantasy combat acrobat. It represents the idea of what looks and feels good for an acrobat to use in battle. The same reasons the artist decided it would look good to put a quarterstaff in the picture mean it would be fun for developers to put it in the game.

So a guy painted a thief acrobat with a quarterstaff, and now they just magically get a bonus with them. You may want to spell it out better, as many weapons can look and feel good- and in DnD terms, be more efficient- in a thief acrobat's hands.


It helps a whole lot. Especially when trying to tumble in a way that is tactically helpful in combat- vaulting over obstructions to escape the reach of your enemies. The pole itself also helps parry attacks or simply keep enemies at a distance from you... and without some way to achieve that effect, tumbling in battle is even more suicidal.

No, a pole that is as tall as you won't help you vault. A polearm length staff, maybe, a quarterstaff, no.

The rest of that can also be done with a wide variety of weapons, or improvised attacks, or maybe even the Bluff skill. No special quarterstaff qualities there.

DNDJESS
04-02-2008, 08:30 PM
So if you're going to make all these arguments, perhaps you can explain how a ring can make me float like a feather. Or how a hat can make me more intelligent. Or how a pair of boots can help me jump (or perhaps you believe pumping up your shoes makes you jump higher?)

THIS IS A FANTASY GAME! Stop trying to deny good ideas because you don't think they'd work in reality. They work here. It's magic. Accept it and ST%U!

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 10:12 PM
So if you're going to make all these arguments, perhaps you can explain how a ring can make me float like a feather. Or how a hat can make me more intelligent. Or how a pair of boots can help me jump (or perhaps you believe pumping up your shoes makes you jump higher?)

THIS IS A FANTASY GAME! Stop trying to deny good ideas because you don't think they'd work in reality. They work here. It's magic. Accept it and ST%U!

Now this is just desperation. Acrobats and quarterstaffs exist in real life, we have something solid to draw on. Saying "it works because it's a fantasy game" is just a cop out.

But I will humor you and fight fantasy with fantasy. Where in the DnD 3.5 rules does it say that thief acrobats get to attack faster with a quarterstaff simply because they are thief acrobats?

Right then, that should clear that nonsense up.

DNDJESS
04-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Now this is just desperation. Acrobats and quarterstaffs exist in real life, we have something solid to draw on. Saying "it works because it's a fantasy game" is just a cop out.

But I will humor you and fight fantasy with fantasy. Where in the DnD 3.5 rules does it say that thief acrobats get to attack faster with a quarterstaff simply because they are thief acrobats?

Right then, that should clear that nonsense up.

Can you please direct me to the page in the 3.5 rulebook that discusses Enhancements...........

The point is, you were arguing against ideas that would improve the game because it isn't possible in reality. Now you're arguing against ideas that would improve the game because it isn't in a ruleset that DDO has moved beyond.

Forget all that nonsense. The only question that really, truly matters is this: how would the change effect DDO? Would it improve gameplay for some? Undoubtedly yes. Would it make the game worse for some people? Undoubtedly no. If you don't like the enhancements, can you ignore them? Yes.

As far as DDO is concerned, there is absolutely no downside to the ideas presented, and plenty of upside to make it worth implementing.

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 10:55 PM
Can you please direct me to the page in the 3.5 rulebook that discusses Enhancements...........

Nope those aren't in there either. But that wasn't the question was it?

DNDJESS
04-02-2008, 11:01 PM
Nope those aren't in there either. But that wasn't the question was it?

I answered your question, and the answer was - it doesn't matter. See above post.

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 11:09 PM
I answered your question, and the answer was - it doesn't matter. See above post.

Actually you didn't- you avoided it.

You aren't going to take real life arguments for something that does happen in real life. You avoid arguments based on the sourcebooks. So I'm guessing you just want to disagree to disagree- at which point I am wasting my time.

Fantasy games still follow their own internal logic, it's what holds them together. "It's a fantasy world" is not an argument when what is being presented has no basis in those rules or by default in reality.

Delacroix21
04-03-2008, 07:17 AM
There is one already finesseable quarterstaff in the game tho which will work very nicely with this enhancements: The shining Cresent... It is considered a sickle for proficiency and finesse purposely - so perfect for a rogue, and a quarterstaff in terms of animation, so the attack speed boost will apply to it. So yea use that.. To make all wstaffs finesseable is a nerf to that weapon as well, so thats not cool.


NEVER count raid loot as a fix or solution to a problem.

DNDJESS
04-03-2008, 04:24 PM
Actually I did sufficiently answer your question, but you couldn't put 2 and 2 together:


But I will humor you and fight fantasy with fantasy. Where in the DnD 3.5 rules does it say that thief acrobats get to attack faster with a quarterstaff simply because they are thief acrobats?

Can you please direct me to the page in the 3.5 rulebook that discusses Enhancements............

There is absolutely no basis in the 3.5 rulebook for enhancements, so how can you possibly presume what this enhancement can or cannot do? If the Devs decide to make Qstaffs finessable upon purchasing this enhancement, there is no basis for argument against it based on the 3.5 ruleset since enhancements do not exist in that ruleset.


You apparently missed the part where a quarterstaff is only about six feet long (about 4 feet for a small character)- a useless length for pole vaulting and of dubious use as a tightrope balance.

Can you please explain how I buy a 6' long staff from a tall character, and when it is given to my small character, it becomes 4'? Is my character hacking off the end of a magical staff with a hacksaw when I'm not looking?

Invalid_86
04-03-2008, 04:41 PM
Actually I did sufficiently answer your question, but you couldn't put 2 and 2 together:

There is absolutely no basis in the 3.5 rulebook for enhancements, so how can you possibly presume what this enhancement can or cannot do? If the Devs decide to make Qstaffs finessable upon purchasing this enhancement, there is no basis for argument against it based on the 3.5 ruleset since enhancements do not exist in that ruleset.

D'oh! You didn't realize that a Thief Acrobat in DnD is a prestige class, and that class does not get a quarterstaff bonus?


Can you please explain how I buy a 6' long staff from a tall character, and when it is given to my small character, it becomes 4'? Is my character hacking off the end of a magical staff with a hacksaw when I'm not looking?

Reread the rules about weapon and character sizes.

Basically if a halfling or gnome buys a quarterstaff made for small characters it would be about 4 feet tall
and do d4 damage.

MysticTheurge
04-03-2008, 06:17 PM
D'oh! You didn't realize that a Thief Acrobat in DnD is a prestige class, and that class does not get a quarterstaff bonus?

Doh! You didn't realize that Thief Acrobat in DDO is an enhancement, and that enhancement is only based on the D&D prestige class of the same name?

Invalid_86
04-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Doh! You didn't realize that Thief Acrobat in DDO is an enhancement, and that enhancement is only based on the D&D prestige class of the same name?

Thanks Mystic for pointing out the earlier point that I made- that thief acrobats have no earlier precedent for having
a bonus when using a quarterstaff.

Thus the oddity of the devs choosing to give this bonus when there is no DnD reason for it, real life reason for it,
and despite quarterstaffs being basically a broken weapon in the game. Very curious!

MysticTheurge
04-03-2008, 06:31 PM
when there is no... real life reason for it

That is, apparently, quite debatable.

DNDJESS
04-03-2008, 06:56 PM
Thus the oddity of the devs choosing to give this bonus when there is no DnD reason for it, real life reason for it, and despite quarterstaffs being basically a broken weapon in the game. Very curious!

They probably did it because even they have now accepted that jump and tumble are useless, and nobody would get the enhancement if that was all it entailed. They also realized that Qstaff was useless. So to kill two birds with one stone, they added the two together in an attempt to make both of them useful. But without being finessable, both of them are still pretty much useless, which is why players are asking for it.


Reread the rules about weapon and character sizes.

Basically if a halfling or gnome buys a quarterstaff made for small characters it would be about 4 feet tall
and do d4 damage.

Maybe I was a bit unclear. I'm referring to when a halfling player buys a staff from a human player. Suddenly the 6' staff one character was using becomes a 4' staff in the hands of another. Any explanation on that?

Invalid_86
04-03-2008, 07:53 PM
That is, apparently, quite debatable.

Not really. There has yet to be an example of when a quarterstaff is a consistantly preferable weapon when tumbling/jumping/balancing over any other weapon. Note I said quarterstaff- not a pole- there is a difference.

But I am game. Surely I am not the only martial artist here who has practiced ukemi while carrying a staff. Anyone else done so and found it to be handier than, say, a one handed finessable weapon like a knife or short sword? So much so that there should be a big benefit to an acrobat who uses one?


They probably did it because even they have now accepted that jump and tumble are useless, and nobody would get the enhancement if that was all it entailed. They also realized that Qstaff was useless. So to kill two birds with one stone, they added the two together in an attempt to make both of them useful. But without being finessable, both of them are still pretty much useless, which is why players are asking for it.

Note that I did not say that a staff should not be finessable- quite the contrary I pointed out that there was rules to be found that showed that the off end of the staff is a light weapon. Go back and look at my earlier post.

As implemented right now quarterstaffs are pretty useless to acrobats and finesse fighters in general, and unless the dual weapon rules are introduced they will continue to be messed up. that's part of the mystery as to why you'd encourage use of this weapon.

Jump and Tumble? Well I'd be inclined to say that instead of treating the symptoms they should look at why these skills are questionably useful. That's a real fix.


Maybe I was a bit unclear. I'm referring to when a halfling player buys a staff from a human player. Suddenly the 6' staff one character was using becomes a 4' staff in the hands of another. Any explanation on that?

Yes. DDO is missing the small character weapon rules, which are a big counterbalance to the awesomeness of halflings. Right now halflings have all of the perks of being small but only one of the drawbacks- reduced weight carrying.

MysticTheurge
04-03-2008, 08:14 PM
Not really.

Actually, yeah.

Given that you think one thing and many other people seem to think something else, it meets all the criteria for "debatable."

Invalid_86
04-03-2008, 08:26 PM
Actually, yeah.

Given that you think one thing and many other people seem to think something else, it meets all the criteria for "debatable."

We did have people mistaking a quarterstaff for a pole, and people decribing effects from a quarterstaff that could come from a variety of weapons. That's just confusion.

Oh and did we mention the guy who thought it was right because he saw it in a picture?

Not much of a debate here.

DNDJESS
04-03-2008, 10:28 PM
We did have people mistaking a quarterstaff for a pole, and people decribing effects from a quarterstaff that could come from a variety of weapons. That's just confusion.

Oh and did we mention the guy who thought it was right because he saw it in a picture?

Not much of a debate here.

The problem is, DDO has been around for over 2 years, and how many new weapons have been added? I can think of 2, and both are thrown weapons with no new attack animations. So if they ever actually add new weapons, I would expect poles to be very low on the list. For purposes of this game, I'd rather think of poles and staffs as the same item, since it makes more sense than thinking poles just don't exist.

Angelus_dead
04-03-2008, 11:57 PM
Oh and did we mention the guy who thought it was right because he saw it in a picture?
Not much of a debate here.
True. It's not much of a debate- your responses are so irrelevant to the positions advanced by your opponents, that they don't count as part of the same conversation at all.

What part of "Attacking with staves is part of the theme of a fantasy acrobat" do you contest?

Invalid_86
04-04-2008, 12:17 AM
The problem is, DDO has been around for over 2 years, and how many new weapons have been added? I can think of 2, and both are thrown weapons with no new attack animations. So if they ever actually add new weapons, I would expect poles to be very low on the list. For purposes of this game, I'd rather think of poles and staffs as the same item, since it makes more sense than thinking poles just don't exist.

Poles aren't weapons. They could be used to attack- if DDO added in the improvised weapons rules.


True. It's not much of a debate- your responses are so irrelevant to the positions advanced by your opponents, that they don't count as part of the same conversation at all.

What part of "Attacking with staves is part of the theme of a fantasy acrobat" do you contest?

Go back and reread my first post in this thread.

So far the only "debates" put against me have been based on misinformation and coincidence.

Say.....Acrobats are thieves (or rogues, if you prefer) and part of their theme is knifing people in the back. By your logic doesn't that mean they should get an attack bonus with daggers? Hey the pictures of these guys even have them carrying daggers! They could even make a slicing attack with them while somersaulting so they must be an acrobat specialist weapon! Who cares if it doesn't say that they get a bonus in the 3.5 rules lets give it to them anyways.

That has about as much foundation as the quarterstaff arguments. Plus daggers actually work right in the game.

Gornin
04-04-2008, 08:39 AM
RR - I agree that performing tumbling (ukemi) with bo/jo staff is more difficult than with, say Arnis/Escrima sticks, or any of the small blades/swords, but I am sure as a martial artist you have seen those who have specialized in the staff forms who do some pretty awesome feats. I am also sure you have heard how staff wielders used to defeat sword weilders regularly. A six foot staff should allow a trained person to increase his jump distance and heigth, and allow a small bonus to balance.

Just so you know I have studied some Judo and Ju Jitsu which I am sure you know at least teaches the basics of how to take a fall and regain your feet quickly, and to lessen a blow by using basic tumbling techniques. And Ju Jitsu does have some staff techniques.

I think that is the thinking here, and I somewhat agree. This PrC should indicate specialized and focused training, and one of the bonuses should be able to use a staff in an unusual way. I have always felt that DnD limited the way a person engages in combat by the weapon they use instead of the form they learned. Many of the medium weapons can be used in form that stresses agility and quickness rather than strength. The staff falls into that category, and I am much more familiar with those techniques and feel they should apply for this PrC.

Dailus
04-04-2008, 09:02 AM
I have been watching this thread pretty closely and despite what people may assume there is a precedent for quarterstaffs in D&D. A 1st edition thief could become a thief-acrobat at 6th level in 1st edition AD&D. If memory serves the character must have a 15 strength and a 16 dex. Notice they had to not only be strong, but agile as well. Among their abilities gained were the use of the quarter staff and lasso and the ability to pole vault and tight rope walk. Granted this is a pretty old edition, but it does set a precedent for acrobats in D&D. Information is given from memory so please correct me if I am wrong.

-Dailus

Gornin
04-04-2008, 09:43 AM
I have been watching this thread pretty closely and despite what people may assume there is a precedent for quarterstaffs in D&D. A 1st edition thief could become a thief-acrobat at 6th level in 1st edition AD&D. If memory serves the character must have a 15 strength and a 16 dex. Notice they had to not only be strong, but agile as well. Among their abilities gained were the use of the quarter staff and lasso and the ability to pole vault and tight rope walk. Granted this is a pretty old edition, but it does set a precedent for acrobats in D&D. Information is given from memory so please correct me if I am wrong.

-Dailus

Unearthed Arcana from 1st ed had this along with the Barb and Cavalier. I don't remember the stat requirements, but the rest of the info is accurate.

DNDJESS
04-04-2008, 03:26 PM
Reread the rules about weapon and character sizes.

Basically if a halfling or gnome buys a quarterstaff made for small characters it would be about 4 feet tall
and do d4 damage.

Re-read my post a couple times, and tell me if this response really has anything to do with what was discussed.

KristovK
04-04-2008, 05:04 PM
Unearthed Arcana from 1st ed had this along with the Barb and Cavalier. I don't remember the stat requirements, but the rest of the info is accurate.

It's spot on, and the class actually costs you skills, they max at 5th level and don't get better, this was a more combat oriented take on the Thief and it prized Str as much as Dex.

Now, keep in mind, that's the origin of the prestige class and it's changed a lot since that time. Even so, the staff in PnP has always been a Str based weapon, never Dex, so making it finessable has always been a house rule, and usually only in houses which contained active martial artists :) We had house rules for Traveller that would have really surprised the designers, bunch of military and ex-military types who knew the weapons inside and out and laughed at the rules on them. Keep in mind, most of the PnP rules for D&D were created by people without any training in the melee arts, so they don't know what is or isn't possible and go by what they THINK works. The quarterstaff is a great example..it's a weapon that's both str and dex based, depends on who's using it and how they are using at the moment. You can strike targets as precisely with it as you would a dagger or rapier and you can use it to power through defenses and knock people flying, just depends on what you want to do and what level of training you've had.

Invalid_86
04-04-2008, 09:54 PM
It's spot on, and the class actually costs you skills, they max at 5th level and don't get better, this was a more combat oriented take on the Thief and it prized Str as much as Dex.


Well it took away some skills and gave you some new ones. Unfortunately they tended to be the skills that the rest of the party wanted a thief to have!

In 1st edition the class did give you the option of learning to use a staff but you had to spend a proficiency slot on it and gained no other bonuses with it. In fact the only combat bonus the class gave you was a bonus when making unarmed pummelling attacks!

Note too that in the section about pole vaulting it specifically mentions that the pole being used had to be at least four feet taller than the character, meaning staffs were right out.

Invalid_86
04-04-2008, 10:14 PM
RR - I agree that performing tumbling (ukemi) with bo/jo staff is more difficult than with, say Arnis/Escrima sticks, or any of the small blades/swords, but I am sure as a martial artist you have seen those who have specialized in the staff forms who do some pretty awesome feats. I am also sure you have heard how staff wielders used to defeat sword weilders regularly. A six foot staff should allow a trained person to increase his jump distance and heigth, and allow a small bonus to balance.

Just so you know I have studied some Judo and Ju Jitsu which I am sure you know at least teaches the basics of how to take a fall and regain your feet quickly, and to lessen a blow by using basic tumbling techniques. And Ju Jitsu does have some staff techniques.

I think that is the thinking here, and I somewhat agree. This PrC should indicate specialized and focused training, and one of the bonuses should be able to use a staff in an unusual way. I have always felt that DnD limited the way a person engages in combat by the weapon they use instead of the form they learned. Many of the medium weapons can be used in form that stresses agility and quickness rather than strength. The staff falls into that category, and I am much more familiar with those techniques and feel they should apply for this PrC.

I just got back from my dojo and, after a few odd looks and a "I magic missile the darkness!" joke I was able to try out a staff as it relates to an acrobat's skills. If you are curious I was coming from primarily a aikido/ninjutsu background but my colleagues include black belts in tae kwon do, karate, and jujutsu.

Luckily we had some spare jo's that were on the chopping block (excuse the pun) to be cut down into hanbos (a weapon similar to a cane) so if we messed up an end it didn't matter.

First off a staff is an excellent weapon! Let there be no doubt about this. It's amazing too how many principles in unarmed combat translate directly into armed combat, and vice versa.

Secondly a staff is useless for helping in tumbling. If anything it's in the way. A big strike here.

Next, jumping. After remarks of "some people watch too much anime" we gave it a try. A big note- you cannot vault with a staff. At all. It is too short and, unlike a vaulting pole, it does not bend. Now there are instances of long jumpers carrying weights in their hands that- when strategically swung out- can extend your jump a bit. A staff on the other hand is just too light. Oh well, strike two.

Finally, balance. Here again in a tightrope walking you may be able to talk your DM into giving you a +1 circumstance bonus if they are in a good mood, but in trying on the edgings of the mats they just lacked enough weight and length to be a useful counterbalance.

But wait! They did help in one respect. Much like a walking stick they can they can occasionally lend a bit of support to a weak side when off balance. So they did have that going for them. Sadly in the SUper Mario world of DDO the balance skill doesn nothing for keeping you from falling, only helping when getting up after a fall. So the bright spot in all of this doesn't apply in DDO, not to mention that this isn't a staff only quality- any long stick like weapon can do something similar in the right circumstances.

Anyways those were our impressions. Not scientific of course but it was better than nothing.

Gornin
04-05-2008, 07:57 AM
I understand your point RR, and agreed before that it is very difficult to perform many stunts with the staff in hand. But I think we can both agree that it is not impossible, and for some one who focuses on the staff to combine it with acrobatics, and uses it as the focal point of their manouvres, would be able to increase jumping distance some,or flip over a 6' barrier or opponent, or attack with dizzying routines that strike quickly and often.

My point being, that this PrC (the way it is written for DDO ) is focused on the staff that combines a martial artist with an acrobat, and I think that a benefit of this should be the ability to use your dex modifier to attack. I don't think that is an unreasonable advantage to a character that focuses on a weapon or combat style.

Do you think that it is an unreasonable bonus, putting the rules aside for a moment? Most PrC's do break the rules somewhat, and keeping the staff as a STR attack bonus would seriouly hinder this PrC IMO, taking away the rogues ( usually ) biggest advantage, their quickness and agility.


Guess we could call them pole dancers :P

Invalid_86
04-05-2008, 01:07 PM
Oh no doubt the off hand attacks of a staff should be finessable when it it wielded as a dual weapon. The rules specifically say that the main attacks counts as a one handed weapon and the off hands are a light weapon when being used this way.

The trick is getting the weapon coded right. You have to have the option of either using it as a regular weapon or a dual weapon, you have to have seperate enchantments for each end, and if you are wielding the staff two handed which enchanted end you want to use to strike with. Those are the rules for a staff, but none of that is in DDO.

True, it doesn't matter much now as extremely few warriors bother using as staff, and most wizards take advantage of the faulty rods rules to just dual wield rods. But if you are going to make it central to a class you had better bone up on the rules!

Thus part of the "why a staff?" mystery. But who knows, maybe tomorrow's update will include New Updates For Staffs!

And updates for other dual weapons too, as if you are adding one you might as well add them all! Medievel Darth Maul builds rejoice!

Gornin
04-05-2008, 05:13 PM
LOL. Yeah I understand your intent about the double ends.

I think they can code it like the shining crescents(?) from the Titan, and apply it to a PrC instead of a particular wep. That way it is the same bonus regardless of which end hits. At least I think that may be the intent if they allow it. It may be harder than I think, as I have little software experience, but I think it would be doable.

KristovK
04-05-2008, 05:47 PM
Oh no doubt the off hand attacks of a staff should be finessable when it it wielded as a dual weapon. The rules specifically say that the main attacks counts as a one handed weapon and the off hands are a light weapon when being used this way.

The trick is getting the weapon coded right. You have to have the option of either using it as a regular weapon or a dual weapon, you have to have seperate enchantments for each end, and if you are wielding the staff two handed which enchanted end you want to use to strike with. Those are the rules for a staff, but none of that is in DDO.

True, it doesn't matter much now as extremely few warriors bother using as staff, and most wizards take advantage of the faulty rods rules to just dual wield rods. But if you are going to make it central to a class you had better bone up on the rules!

Thus part of the "why a staff?" mystery. But who knows, maybe tomorrow's update will include New Updates For Staffs!

And updates for other dual weapons too, as if you are adding one you might as well add them all! Medievel Darth Maul builds rejoice!

Actually the PnP rules give a 50% chance that both ends of a dual weapon are the exact same when randomly determined, and if you make one or have it made, both ends ARE the same, costs 2x the cost due to that. So no reason to change anything, dual weapon would be +whatever at each end, as the Shining Cresent is already. And the actual dual weapon rules in PnP don't allow you to use finesse with them, you simply get the two weapon fighting benefit of one end being normal and the other end being a light weapon when used as a dual weapon, meaning -4/-2 if you have training as opposed to -4/-4 if you have training.

I personally wouldn't try to vault anything using a quarterstaff, it's a stiff weapon with little if any bend, and that's a requirement of vaulting, the pole bends to give you extra delta v from the stored energy released as the weapon straightens out as you approach the release point. And I can tumble with a quarterstaff, or a greatsword or a spear and even with a kite shield on my left arm and a weapon in my right hand, but I trained specifically for that and it was rather hysterical at first...more then a few black eyes and bruised ribs and even a concussion or three before I actually got good at it :) It's quite possible though, just takes training and practice. And I wouldn't use a quarterstaff for balance either, too short to act as a reliable counterbalance. As RR pointed out, the UA T-A had to use a pole at least 4 feet taller then the user to vault or balance with. Didn't take anything special to learn how to use the staff though, it's a gimme when you take the class..no prof's in 1st ed, classes got to use specific weapons and racials could add to those, but that's all you were trained to use otherwise. Thief didn't have quarterstaff in their list, T-A did.

Invalid_86
04-05-2008, 07:31 PM
Actually the PnP rules give a 50% chance that both ends of a dual weapon are the exact same when randomly determined, and if you make one or have it made, both ends ARE the same, costs 2x the cost due to that. So no reason to change anything, dual weapon would be +whatever at each end, as the Shining Cresent is already.

That's part true for randomly generated staffs. There is a 50% chance that both ends are the same, and a 50% chance that the off end is 1 less then the main end. There is no particular reason why you couldn't just make a staff with two completely different ends, you just won't randomly roll one up on the fly.


And the actual dual weapon rules in PnP don't allow you to use finesse with them, you simply get the two weapon fighting benefit of one end being normal and the other end being a light weapon when used as a dual weapon, meaning -4/-2 if you have training as opposed to -4/-4 if you have training.

Shhhhh! (looks around suspiciously)...I was trying to give people an out for why a staff could get a benefit from weapon finesse. Just play it cool, man! (smiles and waves!)


I personally wouldn't try to vault anything using a quarterstaff, it's a stiff weapon with little if any bend, and that's a requirement of vaulting, the pole bends to give you extra delta v from the stored energy released as the weapon straightens out as you approach the release point. And I can tumble with a quarterstaff, or a greatsword or a spear and even with a kite shield on my left arm and a weapon in my right hand, but I trained specifically for that and it was rather hysterical at first...more then a few black eyes and bruised ribs and even a concussion or three before I actually got good at it :) It's quite possible though, just takes training and practice. And I wouldn't use a quarterstaff for balance either, too short to act as a reliable counterbalance. As RR pointed out, the UA T-A had to use a pole at least 4 feet taller then the user to vault or balance with. Didn't take anything special to learn how to use the staff though, it's a gimme when you take the class..no prof's in 1st ed, classes got to use specific weapons and racials could add to those, but that's all you were trained to use otherwise. Thief didn't have quarterstaff in their list, T-A did.

It sounds like you train in more of a Western style as opposed to Gornin and myself's Eastern styles. SCA?

Have you seen any really good staff users?

I still remember back when I was first learning ukemi- basic tumbling. It was the day after I had a flu shot, and man by the end of the day my shoulder was just trashed! I was so sore the next day.

DNDJESS
04-05-2008, 08:00 PM
The 3.5 rules are like the pirates' code - they're more like guidelines than actual rules. Just because there's nothing in the 3.5 rules about staffs being finessable doesn't mean that DDO shouldn't do it if it is an improvement to the game. After all, I don't believe there's anything in the rules that specifically states that a staff can't be finessed, is there?

Now, about the way you guys are suggesting that Qstaffs be used - you are still left with a weapon that is vastly inferior to dual weilding light maces and clubs. For one thing, you'd have to actually find a Qstaff that has 2 valuable, useful effects on it, or you're left with a weapon that's only useful on 1/2 of your swings. And with all the possible combinations of effects that you can have on a staff, you'd have a very slim chance of looting a staff with 2 'useful' ends, and a great chance of watering down the loot tables with more unusable vendor fodder.

Second, you wouldn't have the versatility that you would when using light maces or clubs. You wouldn't be able to keep your primary hand weapon the same, and switch just your secondary hand to either a different weapon or a shield when needed. That would be a HUGE drawback.

Invalid_86
04-05-2008, 08:55 PM
The 3.5 rules are like the pirates' code - they're more like guidelines than actual rules. Just because there's nothing in the 3.5 rules about staffs being finessable doesn't mean that DDO shouldn't do it if it is an improvement to the game. After all, I don't believe there's anything in the rules that specifically states that a staff can't be finessed, is there?

If being used as a two handed weapon it can't by default as it is not a light weapon, and unlike spiked chains the rules don't specifically say that you can do so. That's part of the reason why spiked chains are cheesariffic!


Now, about the way you guys are suggesting that Qstaffs be used - you are still left with a weapon that is vastly inferior to dual weilding light maces and clubs. For one thing, you'd have to actually find a Qstaff that has 2 valuable, useful effects on it, or you're left with a weapon that's only useful on 1/2 of your swings. And with all the possible combinations of effects that you can have on a staff, you'd have a very slim chance of looting a staff with 2 'useful' ends, and a great chance of watering down the loot tables with more unusable vendor fodder.

Second, you wouldn't have the versatility that you would when using light maces or clubs. You wouldn't be able to keep your primary hand weapon the same, and switch just your secondary hand to either a different weapon or a shield when needed. That would be a HUGE drawback.

Now my friend you are beginning to understand why I was questioning why even have a quarterstaff as a favored weapon for any fighting class, let alone an acrobat. In DnD it isn't a very spectacular weapon, useful but not uber, and in DDO it just isn't implemented correctly.

We can both scratch our heads at this curious state of events!

DNDJESS
04-05-2008, 10:59 PM
If being used as a two handed weapon it can't by default as it is not a light weapon, and unlike spiked chains the rules don't specifically say that you can do so. That's part of the reason why spiked chains are cheesariffic!

Now my friend you are beginning to understand why I was questioning why even have a quarterstaff as a favored weapon for any fighting class, let alone an acrobat. In DnD it isn't a very spectacular weapon, useful but not uber, and in DDO it just isn't implemented correctly.

We can both scratch our heads at this curious state of events!

...and that is why we, as players, are brainstorming to think of better ways to fix the staff. The original rules weren't good. The current rules aren't good. And removing them from the game is pretty unlikely. But when we have people arguing against change for no other reason than 'it differs from the 3.5 rules' or 'it wouldn't work like that in real-life', it just makes it harder for the Devs to take our suggestions seriously.

Invalid_86
04-06-2008, 12:12 AM
...and that is why we, as players, are brainstorming to think of better ways to fix the staff. The original rules weren't good. The current rules aren't good. And removing them from the game is pretty unlikely. But when we have people arguing against change for no other reason than 'it differs from the 3.5 rules' or 'it wouldn't work like that in real-life', it just makes it harder for the Devs to take our suggestions seriously.

There is nothing wrong with the rules for a quarterstaff in 3.5. The problem seems to stem from forcing a square peg into a round hole.

DNDJESS
04-06-2008, 01:18 AM
There is nothing wrong with the rules for a quarterstaff in 3.5. The problem seems to stem from forcing a square peg into a round hole.

There is a difference between 'nothing wrong' and 'there is a better way'. Personally I'd rather not see the developers waste their programmers' time turning a useless weapon into a barely useful weapon. I think they can do better. And apparently they think we can do better as well. Otherwise these wouldn't be the 'Development' forums - they'd be the 'How Can We Make DDO More Like D&D 3.5' forums.

Invalid_86
04-06-2008, 01:36 AM
There is a difference between 'nothing wrong' and 'there is a better way'. Personally I'd rather not see the developers waste their programmers' time turning a useless weapon into a barely useful weapon. I think they can do better. And apparently they think we can do better as well. Otherwise these wouldn't be the 'Development' forums - they'd be the 'How Can We Make DDO More Like D&D 3.5' forums.

How about just fixing what doesn't work before fiddling with anything else?

Right now it's spending time trying to give a weapon bonus to a class that doesn't get a bonus with that weapon- and opening a can of worms with it.

Square peg, round hole.

Angelus_dead
04-06-2008, 01:53 AM
There is nothing wrong with the rules for a quarterstaff in 3.5.
No, in fact there are things wrong with the D&D 3.5 weapon rules. The non-finessability of the quarterstaff is one of the problems, but there are many others.

Invalid_86
04-06-2008, 02:25 AM
No, in fact there are things wrong with the D&D 3.5 weapon rules. The non-finessability of the quarterstaff is one of the problems, but there are many others.

Even if a staff is completely finessable that still doesn't explain why an acrobat should even get a combat bonus with it.

A speed bonus, it might be added, that even a fighter with greater weapon specialization doesn't get.

Gornin
04-06-2008, 08:26 AM
I think we are on the same page here, just different areas.

Why the T-A gets a bonus with staff that fighters can't get? It is a PrC for rogues that most fighters couldn't qualify for, since it takes advantage of a rogues usual advantage if high agility and quickness.

I think we just stay away from the different bonuses for each end and give the same bonus for each end. This keeps the coding nightmare less, keeps the same number of attacks for the TWF, with the disadvantage of not having the ability to switch out just one wep for certain encounters and losing the bonus for doing so. I think that is balanced.

DNDJESS
04-06-2008, 09:12 AM
Even if a staff is completely finessable that still doesn't explain why an acrobat should even get a combat bonus with it.

Because unlike D&D, DDO is completely combat-based. If you think logically about it, what benefits would come from an enhancement called 'Acrobat'? The only ones that logically make sense would be jump, tumble, and balance. And who would waste their time on an enhancement that only gave those benefits? I sure wouldn't, would you? So they added a combat bonus out of necessity to make the enhancement line desirable to more than 1 or 2 people.

KristovK
04-06-2008, 06:50 PM
RR, my training is actually more eastern then western originally, Wu Tang, Judo, and Jujitsu, with a smattering of various other arts taught by my teacher whenever he felt it would add to the student's abilities(he was heavy on the self control/mental and soft forms). I learned fencing and more western style melee weapon arts in high school, and started doing SCA and other re-creation style western martial/melee arts in high school/college and after. My eastern arts training helped me a lot in learning how to tumble with weapons/armor on, as it's not actually something you normally do in the western styles..if you hit the ground, you are usually in deep trouble, but I was used to the more flowing and movement oriented styles of combat and hated just STANDING there and trading blows with a sword/axe/flail/whatever, trying to get around a shield...bugger that, I would tumble through a shield wall, dive over it, shoulder roll over it, worked quite effectively AND tumbling around on the ground doing rolls, cartwheels and front/backflips made my armored ass hard to hit :) I had gymastics training as well as the martial arts, so that really helped a lot, ONCE I got around the whole weapons in my hands, armor on my body problems. Full plate..forget it, half plate or lighter armors, very easy to tumble in, so I only wore half at most..knee cops were the biggest problem, they'd dig into the dirt and get stuck sometimes, causing me to veer off course or stop suddenly, or rip right off totally and force me to stop fighting(do NOT want to take a bastard sword in SCA to an unprotected knee!). Light armor/no armor with weapons only..tumbling is easy, staff is real easy to use in that case as you can do a number of things with it while tumbling, including swinging it at ground level as you roll and trip people, and so on.

Sadly, PnP rules never allowed finesse with a staff and I've never understood that and have always had/been a DM who made it a house rule, as that IS how you often use a staff of any type.

And the rules for double ended weapons in PnP are rather...messy...for what the different ends are magically. Any weapon who's full stats are given in the books have them apply to both ends unless they state otherwise, which they usually don't unless it's like the gnome h/h or dwarven urgrush, those actually have different weapon types on each end. Otherwise, if you find a +2 double bladed sword, it's +2 on both ends and so on. Of course, making them yourself, you CAN choose what's on each end, never seen a DM who didn't allow that, although the rules don't actually say you can, they say the cost is simply 2x because each end gets the same enchantment. And I've never personally had a DM just randomly roll up stuff except for wandering monsters, magic is always very tightly controlled so everything magical is pre-made by the DM and double ended weapons are the same at both ends UNLESS it's something special. DM once gave a guy in the party a double orc axe with +2 Flaming and +2 Frost ends, and he was talking about having a vorpal/smiting weapon for him once we hit 18th+ levels.

Questing_Healer
04-06-2008, 08:59 PM
I, for one, was intrigued by the new thief-acrobat enhancement set. I completely agree that to make this skill useful, especially to, say, halfling rogues, they would need to make the quarterstaff a 'finesse' weapon.

In fact, I'm holding off on making one despite how much I love the concept of a thief-acrobat with a staff just to see if this ever gets implemented. I don't post often here, but this is something important to me.

So /signed. ;)

-qh

Aeneas
04-07-2008, 01:29 PM
This is a pointless discussion...clearly the purpose of all of this is to find a replacement for Nat Gann.

Might as well call way of the thief-acrobat II "Stormreach's next top Nat Gann!"

Invalid_86
04-07-2008, 06:22 PM
Light armor/no armor with weapons only..tumbling is easy, staff is real easy to use in that case as you can do a number of things with it while tumbling, including swinging it at ground level as you roll and trip people, and so on.


Just to play devil's advocate there are alot of weapons that an acrobat could also use while doing a low tumbling attack. Cut the femoral artery with a dagger, slice the Achilles tendon with a short sword, smash the kneecap with a light mace, cut off the foot with a sickle....and that's just the basic finessable weapons that all rogues have access to.

I've never tried SCA fighting before. When I lived out East I had friends that were involved in it and I heard the stories, but never made it out myself. If I had the opportunity I'd love to spend a weekend learning from a true classical duellist, maybe in a seminar or the like.

All I can say is if you can tumble with a shield strapped to one arm and a weapon in the other hand then your kung fu is much stronger than mine! (laughs!)

SableShadow
04-07-2008, 08:20 PM
/signed

Finesse staves.

Real tumbling attacks would be nice. Real dual-weapons would be nice. Making staves finessable in the hands of a thief-acrobat is a nice little work around. Heck, even then the only real advantage of stacking up on staves is to spare pack space or perhaps a feat (switch out twf + itwf)...you save some space, spare some feats, lose some dps (dual rapier + ss rogues are going to be doing more).

Gymkata! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkata)

:cool:

Invalid_86
04-07-2008, 08:27 PM
Oh no! Gymkata! (rolls Sanity check!)

DNDJESS
04-07-2008, 08:56 PM
/signed

Finesse staves.

Real tumbling attacks would be nice. Real dual-weapons would be nice. Making staves finessable in the hands of a thief-acrobat is a nice little work around. Heck, even then the only real advantage of stacking up on staves is to spare pack space or perhaps a feat (switch out twf + itwf)...you save some space, spare some feats, lose some dps (dual rapier + ss rogues are going to be doing more).

Gymkata! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkata)

:cool:

I'm not sure I agree with the thought of saving feats with this. Even if the staff was made finessable, it should be effected by either TWF or THF feats depending on how it's implemented, so the feats spent would potentially be the same.

SableShadow
04-07-2008, 09:10 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the thought of saving feats with this. Even if the staff was made finessable, it should be effected by either TWF or THF feats depending on how it's implemented, so the feats spent would potentially be the same.


Sure, I agree. Ideally (imho, ymmv, void where prohibited), a stave should be finessable, but handle as if you were dual-wielding two smaller weapons *or* non-finessable and handle as if you were wielding a two-hander. User chooses. Been wanting that ever since I picked up Shining Cresents. :D

I'm just saying it's maybe easier to just give the speed bonus (currently planned) and make it finessable...done! Otherwise, there's sorting out some kind of mechanic to switch it from one to the other. Don't know how complicated that might be, but haven't seen anything like it in ddo (yet). *shrug*


Oh, and...Gymkata! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkata)

:cool:

DNDJESS
04-07-2008, 10:20 PM
Sure, I agree. Ideally (imho, ymmv, void where prohibited), a stave should be finessable, but handle as if you were dual-wielding two smaller weapons *or* non-finessable and handle as if you were wielding a two-hander. User chooses. Been wanting that ever since I picked up Shining Cresents. :D

The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

Invalid_86
04-07-2008, 10:40 PM
The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

It's almost trying to put a square peg...into a round hole! The mystery lives on!



Oh, and...Gymkata! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkata)

:cool:

Aaaaah!!! It's everywhere! Why is that guy karate fighting ninjas on a pommel horse?????
(rolls another Sanity Check!)

But wait....he didn't use a quarterstaff.........maybe it's a sign?

SableShadow
04-07-2008, 10:48 PM
The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

Sure. I said before, you only get pack space and maybe a feat or two. Heck, make it finessable as a 2-hander *and* a double-weapon, user's choice. It'd be awesome on the Reaver staff, but other than that it'd be sub-par compared to other weapons available.

If you need the feats to make it viable, then the only thing you're saving is pack space. Hence, just make it finessable, keep the speed increase, and be done. Die hard stave wielders (stavers? stavenators?) can save a couple feats, lose some dps, and save a bit of pack space.

And, RR? This one's for you.


...








...







...






Gymkata! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkata)

SableShadow
04-07-2008, 10:53 PM
But wait....he didn't use a quarterstaff.........maybe it's a sign?

You mean...Thief-Acrobats should get a bonus pommel horse proficency instead of stave bonus abilities? :eek:

I think you may have something there.



And, of course....Gymkata! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkata)

Invalid_86
04-07-2008, 10:56 PM
And, RR? This one's for you.


...








...







...






Gymkata! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkata)


Gaaaargh!!!! (rolls Sanity Check)
Aw man now I need to change my pants :eek:

dejafu
04-07-2008, 11:05 PM
A note for those who worry about a lack of precedence for finessable two-handed weapons in PnP:

In the 3.5 book Races of the Wild, p. 166: The elven courtblade is an exotic weapon that is two-handed, finessable, and is not treated as a light weapon.

Granted, it's an exotic weapon, but it also has the crit range of a rapier and does 1d10 damage, so it would seem the game designers didn't think that a making a two-handed weapon finessable was enough to justify expending an entire feat :)

Come to think of it... To heck with quarterstaves... devs, where's my elven courtblade?! ;):D

Invalid_86
04-07-2008, 11:11 PM
A note for those who worry about a lack of precedence for finessable two-handed weapons in PnP:


Spiked chains. Extremely cheesy, sure, but two handed and finessable.

jjflanigan
04-07-2008, 11:18 PM
Yes...but quarterstaff is a "simple weapon" not exotic, heck it's not even martial. If you want most of the options applied to it, you'll need to have it pulled out of the simple weapon category as it doesn't make sense to beef it up otherwise (aside from the fact that you just want it to be beefed up).

SableShadow
04-07-2008, 11:25 PM
Yes...but quarterstaff is a "simple weapon" not exotic, heck it's not even martial. If you want most of the options applied to it, you'll need to have it pulled out of the simple weapon category as it doesn't make sense to beef it up otherwise (aside from the fact that you just want it to be beefed up).

Well...keep in mind the sickles, daggers, and light maces are also in the simple category, and also finessable. Also, I'm more of a 'make it finessable in the hands of a Thief-Acrobat' as part of the upgrade for that class rather than speaking of a blanket upgrade to the weapon.

The thrust of the thread is 'hey, devs...if you're going to put the staff in as a specialty weapon for the Thief-Acrobat, be sure to make it finessable'.

dejafu
04-07-2008, 11:38 PM
Well...keep in mind the sickles, daggers, and light maces are also in the simple category, and also finessable. Also, I'm more of a 'make it finessable in the hands of a Thief-Acrobat' as part of the upgrade for that class rather than speaking of a blanket upgrade to the weapon.

/signed.

In addition, what I said about the elven courtblade also applies with the spiked chain: you get a lot more out of the weapon than just being able to finesse a two-hander - specifically, the ability to double your reach while still being able to attack adjacent opponents. Which is probably meaningless to anybody who doesn't play PnP, but trust me, it's the main reason people take the feat to get it - I've rarely seen anybody use it with finesse.

Still, it's a powerful enough ability that the game designers made it only appear on exotic weapons, so it seems reasonable to ask people to pay something for the ability. Making it a part of the enhancement is an excellent compromise.

jjflanigan
04-08-2008, 12:04 AM
Well...keep in mind the sickles, daggers, and light maces are also in the simple category, and also finessable. Also, I'm more of a 'make it finessable in the hands of a Thief-Acrobat' as part of the upgrade for that class rather than speaking of a blanket upgrade to the weapon.

The thrust of the thread is 'hey, devs...if you're going to put the staff in as a specialty weapon for the Thief-Acrobat, be sure to make it finessable'.

Gotcha. I can totally get behind that!

GlassCannon
04-08-2008, 04:57 AM
Shining Crescents: Finessable slashing quarterstaff.

I see no reason to exclude standard q-staves from the Finesse table, and never verified whether they were or not(They rightly should be with STR of 12-14 or better). Thanks to my experience in Martial Arts I would say that Weapon Finesse would apply to ANY WEAPON, given the proper STR modifier. Example: 42 DEX 26 STR dwarf attempts to Finesse a Greataxe using his Quarterstaff and Axe proficiencies. STR Check: Modifier of +6 or better, Success! You will use your DEX modifier to make Attack rolls with your Greataxe.

Of course, this would be entirely too logical and not applicable in a universe wherein not many people use physics in combat, and the only ones that do have such a high INT that they don't melee. The Dex bonus would still apply in combat, but the Dodge AC portion would be moved into a defensive fighting role, and the greataxe would become an extension of the body, moving in unison with the dextrous wielder, who just happens to be jumping all around and using bodyweight and inertial levers...

KristovK
04-08-2008, 05:16 AM
Just to play devil's advocate there are alot of weapons that an acrobat could also use while doing a low tumbling attack. Cut the femoral artery with a dagger, slice the Achilles tendon with a short sword, smash the kneecap with a light mace, cut off the foot with a sickle....and that's just the basic finessable weapons that all rogues have access to.

I've never tried SCA fighting before. When I lived out East I had friends that were involved in it and I heard the stories, but never made it out myself. If I had the opportunity I'd love to spend a weekend learning from a true classical duellist, maybe in a seminar or the like.

All I can say is if you can tumble with a shield strapped to one arm and a weapon in the other hand then your kung fu is much stronger than mine! (laughs!)

Tumbling with a shield just takes practice, and after a while you learn how to keep that arm 'out' and move the shield to provide constant coverage as you tumble...and even bash people with as you roll by :)

Oh, and it takes a LOT longer then a weekend to learn even the basics. I taught basic european sword, sword and board, and polearms, as well as teaching florentine and advanced techniques of the sword/shield/polearms. I can teach you enough in a few hours to NOT maim yourself the first time you swing a sword, but to actually teach you how to fight takes a while, teaching you how to fight effectively takes even longer, and that's IF you've already got some training in martial arts...teaching people who'd had NO training was always something I dreaded, it could take months to get them good enough to NOT accidently maim themselves or the guy standing next to them on the line.

Vaypor
04-08-2008, 05:43 AM
I think if Q-staves will be a weapon of choice in the acrobat II features, then it should be finessable by rogues automatically. We get few enough feats as it is w/o having to swap out something we like/use all the time. So, I'm all for this being a rogue only feature also (a little rogue love here). Why we would get weapon choice that seemingly penalizes us by negating our weapon finesse (a very common feat among rogues, as we all know), confuses me.

If it's an enhancement-great. If it's free-even better :) If it's a feat-I'm discouraged from giving it serious use.

DNDJESS
04-08-2008, 04:11 PM
Thanks to my experience in Martial Arts I would say that Weapon Finesse would apply to ANY WEAPON, given the proper STR modifier.

I'd take that one step further - shouldn't every weapon use the Dex modifier for the to-hit bonus? You're a martial artist and I'm sure you'll agree - how often do you hit a target because of your strength? If that were the case, you'd see bodybuilders in MLB batting around .900.

That is the problem with bringing real-life arguments into the fantasy scenario - you realize the entire system doesn't really make sense.

Invalid_86
04-08-2008, 07:07 PM
I'd take that one step further - shouldn't every weapon use the Dex modifier for the to-hit bonus? You're a martial artist and I'm sure you'll agree - how often do you hit a target because of your strength? If that were the case, you'd see bodybuilders in MLB batting around .900.

That is the problem with bringing real-life arguments into the fantasy scenario - you realize the entire system doesn't really make sense.

No. Strength should determine the chance to hit in most circumstances.

Strength allows you to....

Recover faster, allowing you to take advantage of gaps that come up in an opponent's defenses

Swing faster, making your attacks harder to dodge

Power through your opponent's defenses, allowing the attacker to blow through a potential parry, press through a weapon lock, or strike through armor. Remember that very often an opponent will be damaged despite being hit on an armored part of the body.

Use weapons that aren't made for finesse more effectively. This includes many blunts, two handers, and polearms. These weapons are often made for brute force, not subtlety. Even a straightforward weapon like a longsword quickly dulls and loses its edge in combat, forcing the wielder to rely on arm strength more and more as fights go on.

Strength is also one of several factors that help to ward off fatigue, which quickly gnaws away your ability to hit.

Keep in mind to that many (if not all) finessable weapons still work very well if not better with raw muscle and guts behind them.

Invalid_86
04-08-2008, 07:10 PM
Tumbling with a shield just takes practice, and after a while you learn how to keep that arm 'out' and move the shield to provide constant coverage as you tumble...and even bash people with as you roll by :)

Oh, and it takes a LOT longer then a weekend to learn even the basics. I taught basic european sword, sword and board, and polearms, as well as teaching florentine and advanced techniques of the sword/shield/polearms. I can teach you enough in a few hours to NOT maim yourself the first time you swing a sword, but to actually teach you how to fight takes a while, teaching you how to fight effectively takes even longer, and that's IF you've already got some training in martial arts...teaching people who'd had NO training was always something I dreaded, it could take months to get them good enough to NOT accidently maim themselves or the guy standing next to them on the line.

Oh man I can't even pretend to master anything in a weekend. I'd be happy with a bit more practical experience and exposure to new attacking theories- that never hurts!

Invalid_86
04-08-2008, 07:12 PM
I think if Q-staves will be a weapon of choice in the acrobat II features, then it should be finessable by rogues automatically. We get few enough feats as it is w/o having to swap out something we like/use all the time. So, I'm all for this being a rogue only feature also (a little rogue love here). Why we would get weapon choice that seemingly penalizes us by negating our weapon finesse (a very common feat among rogues, as we all know), confuses me.

If it's an enhancement-great. If it's free-even better :) If it's a feat-I'm discouraged from giving it serious use.

See if it is finessable it should be able to be used that way by anyone. It's hardly an acrobat ability, and there still is no reason why they should get an extra bonus on top of what anyone else would get.

DNDJESS
04-08-2008, 08:13 PM
See if it is finessable it should be able to be used that way by anyone. It's hardly an acrobat ability, and there still is no reason why they should get an extra bonus on top of what anyone else would get.

But the thing you're just not understanding is, there has to be a good reason to choose the acrobat ability, and jump&tumble just isn't enough. If you don't like this idea, by all means, make some other suggestions to add to the acrobat ability to make it worth spending the enhancement points on it.

SableShadow
04-08-2008, 08:19 PM
See if it is finessable it should be able to be used that way by anyone. It's hardly an acrobat ability, and there still is no reason why they should get an extra bonus on top of what anyone else would get.

I see a bonus with staves as being a little extra incentive, and maybe a touch of flavor to motivate folks to take the Way of the Thief-Acrobat.

One of the reasons I've been bringing up cheesy (well, super ultra mega cheesy) martial arts flicks in this thread is to highlight the fantasy aspects of the game...there are terribly few martial arts flicks that don't make a student of same wince, yet there's an audience for them. I view staves-for-acrobats in the same light, and am willing to suspend my disbelief...well, as long as they are finessable, since adding a boost to a non-finessable weapon, then giving it to the rogue class would be, in a word, silly.

Does it make a lot of practical sense? Nah.

The more tumbling/jumping/running you do, the more it makes sense to use lighter weapons than a staff. I'd personally love a boost to daggers, and daggers only, but I'm told that's a fetish of mine. :) Or, better, dump the weapon boost and bump the tumble/jump/balance bonus to +4, or even raise the bonus for Showtime to +20(!!!) for the second degree of Thief-Acrobat.

From a practical perspective, I'm ready to take anything the devs give, and if they've already started down the staff road, then I ask them to just be sure that a Thief-Acrobat can use a staff with either str or dex...in a word, make them finessable.


Oh, and ... Gymkata!

Invalid_86
04-08-2008, 08:22 PM
But the thing you're just not understanding is, there has to be a good reason to choose the acrobat ability, and jump&tumble just isn't enough. If you don't like this idea, by all means, make some other suggestions to add to the acrobat ability to make it worth spending the enhancement points on it.

You forgot the movement bonus- which is a nice perk, and immunity to knockdown effects- which I would absolutely love to have, and can't really get elsewhere.

But really acrobat isn't a combat perk class (never has been)- it's one you take because it's fun.


Oh, and ... Gymkata!
Oh the humanity! Think of the children! (children rolling their Sanity Checks....!)

SableShadow
04-08-2008, 08:39 PM
But really acrobat isn't a combat perk class (never has been)- it's one you take because it's fun.

True enough, though I think the devs are shooting for a certain % of players to pick up the Way of enhancements...someone there apparently thinks it isn't sweet enough to get the numbers they want.

I'll still be taking it (probably) when it comes out, regardless of staff or no staff (the increase in ShowTime was the deal maker for me...the added speed and balance are just bonus). It would, though, annoy my sense of symmetry if it included bonuses to a non-finessable weapon. I'd want them to either make it finessable or take it out entirely. :confused:


Oh the humanity! Think of the children! (children rolling their Sanity Checks....!)

Muhuhuahahahaha! Soon my army of pommel horse wielding, acrobatic, Lovecraftian cultists shall be complete! :cool:

DNDJESS
04-09-2008, 04:47 PM
No. Strength should determine the chance to hit in most circumstances.

Strength allows you to....

Recover faster, allowing you to take advantage of gaps that come up in an opponent's defenses

Swing faster, making your attacks harder to dodge

Strong does not = fast. Think of the big, dumb, lumbering ogre. He is very strong, but not very fast. When you put that much strength behind a swing, it actually takes you longer to recover. Making a more controlled attack would allow you to recover faster and hit more often. Yes, I agree strength would help, but you'll hit more often if you're dextrous than you will if you're just strong.


Power through your opponent's defenses, allowing the attacker to blow through a potential parry, press through a weapon lock, or strike through armor. Remember that very often an opponent will be damaged despite being hit on an armored part of the body.

I would agree with you here, except for the fact that there's no such thing as parry or weapon lock in DDO. Maybe that would be a better benefit for Acrobats - the ability to parry? As for striking through armor, I partially agree with you, but you still have to hit the target to overcome their armor. And if you are damaging them through their armor, shouldn't every piece of armor have a natural damage reduction associated with it?


Use weapons that aren't made for finesse more effectively. This includes many blunts, two handers, and polearms. These weapons are often made for brute force, not subtlety. Even a straightforward weapon like a longsword quickly dulls and loses its edge in combat, forcing the wielder to rely on arm strength more and more as fights go on.

Keep in mind to that many (if not all) finessable weapons still work very well if not better with raw muscle and guts behind them.

With the exception of ranged weapons, all weapons are more effective with strength. But again, it's because you'll do more damage when you hit, not because you'll hit more often.


Strength is also one of several factors that help to ward off fatigue, which quickly gnaws away your ability to hit.

Wouldn't that have as much or more to do with endurance i.e. constitution than strength? But yes, strength would be a factor.

If you think about your 'to hit' bonus, there are several things that would effect it more than strength. For example: Intelligence - spotting weaknesses in their armor or defenses. Wisdom - knowing from experience where the weaknesses are in certain mobs or types of armor. Dexterity - aiming and successfully hitting their weak spots.

Invalid_86
04-09-2008, 10:38 PM
Strong does not = fast. Think of the big, dumb, lumbering ogre. He is very strong, but not very fast. When you put that much strength behind a swing, it actually takes you longer to recover. Making a more controlled attack would allow you to recover faster and hit more often. Yes, I agree strength would help, but you'll hit more often if you're dextrous than you will if you're just strong.

Strong also does not equal slow. Think of a strong man swinging a sledgehammer compared to a weaker man. The strong man can do it faster, with more control for a longer period of time.

The controlled quick attacks you describe is what weapon finesse lets you do.


I would agree with you here, except for the fact that there's no such thing as parry or weapon lock in DDO. Maybe that would be a better benefit for Acrobats - the ability to parry? As for striking through armor, I partially agree with you, but you still have to hit the target to overcome their armor. And if you are damaging them through their armor, shouldn't every piece of armor have a natural damage reduction associated with it?

Actually there is parries and weapon locks. That's part of the give and take of a combat round. What, you thought that having 1 attack per round literally meant you swung once in the round then just stood there?

In this regard the animations in the game are incorrect. They should have shown feints/ducking and weaving/whatever along with the attack, rather than swing swing swing. Then as our BAB's increased we would simply get more efficient and cut out some of the baggage, like how it works in DnD.

DnD is alot like a movie battle scene as regards to fighting. You will see a big battle, and in the background you see all of the grunts crashing weapons together alot, hesitating, swinging too wide, whatever. Sure they hit but they can do better. Then pan to the hero moving through the grunts. Quick block, stab, move on. Duck, come underneath, slash, move on. Sidestep, hack out knee, move on. Is the Hero literally swinging 3-4 times faster than everyone else? No, he is simply more efficient.


With the exception of ranged weapons, all weapons are more effective with strength. But again, it's because you'll do more damage when you hit, not because you'll hit more often.

Really? Because it is strength that lets you push a dagger through chainmail links, or bash shoulder armor with a mace so hard that it breaks the victim's collarbone.

Technically with some ranged weapons you should also get some sort of a bonus to hit from strength. A strong character can use a bow with a higher draw strength- which means an arrow hits with more impact and is more likely to pierce armor or a shield. Ditto with thrown weapons, plus the thrown object will travel faster, making it harder to dodge.


Wouldn't that have as much or more to do with endurance i.e. constitution than strength? But yes, strength would be a factor.

If you think about your 'to hit' bonus, there are several things that would effect it more than strength. For example: Intelligence - spotting weaknesses in their armor or defenses. Wisdom - knowing from experience where the weaknesses are in certain mobs or types of armor. Dexterity - aiming and successfully hitting their weak spots.

Alot of that instinctiveness is covered in your BAB. Good fighters begin to flow better and naturally spot weaknesses better.

Not to be rude but have you ever actually trained with weapons?

DNDJESS
04-09-2008, 11:25 PM
Not to be rude but have you ever actually trained with weapons?

To be honest, no I haven't. So I guess I'll admit I was completely wrong about everything and have no clue what I"m talking about. I'll just trust your experience for what it takes to be an expert with weapons - spend 99% of my time in the gym. After all, I don't need hand-eye coordination to hit my target if I'm strong enough. And intelligence and wisdom have no bearing on overcoming someone's defense (which makes me confused about why boxing is called the 'sweet science', but hey, what do I know?). All I have to do is make sure I get strong enough, and I'll never miss, right?

KristovK
04-10-2008, 04:47 AM
To be honest, no I haven't. So I guess I'll admit I was completely wrong about everything and have no clue what I"m talking about. I'll just trust your experience for what it takes to be an expert with weapons - spend 99% of my time in the gym. After all, I don't need hand-eye coordination to hit my target if I'm strong enough. And intelligence and wisdom have no bearing on overcoming someone's defense (which makes me confused about why boxing is called the 'sweet science', but hey, what do I know?). All I have to do is make sure I get strong enough, and I'll never miss, right?

Go find a piece of rebar, 1/2" diameter, about 3' long, and start swinging it. Start off with just a simple one handed swing from right to left(or vice versa if left handed) clear across your body and see how long you can swing it as fast as possible. Now, once you notice it hurting your arm/wrist(which probably won't take long), stop and rest a bit. Now, repeat this with a slight twist, swing halfway across your body and whip it straight back on a reverse course. In a very short time you'll understand the purpose of this exercise, which is exactly what this is, one I use myself and that I made all my students use as well.

It does indeed require more then just eye-hand coordination to use a weapon in combat effectively, you need the strength to alter it's direction of travel instantly and redirect it instantly and hit the target with enough force to do damage. Lighter weapons this isn't as much of a problem as larger/heavier weapons, daggers are incredibly easy to use, while a long sword or quarterstaff takes a lot more power to alter the direction of travel radically, more mass involved.

It takes no great intelligence or wisdom to look at someone in armor and see the gaping holes, which is what you'll see in plate armors. Ring mail and studded leather, rather obvious where the weakness again, you can visually see them. Hardened leather or soft leather, again, you can visually see the weak points. Chain is harder to find weak points in, because it's weak point IS the armor usually, it's only effective against slashing weapons, so you instead stab or using a blunt object, chain doesn't help against impact damage, just cuts. Depending on the type of chain, there could also be rather visually obvious weak points, same as in the plate types, depends on how it's made. Same with boxing I might add, an opponent's weaknesses and defenses become apparent fairly quickly, being able to capitalize on them is another matter, as they might not be something you personally can exploit due to your own weaknesses and strengths. I've yet to meet a genius boxer, nor hear of one, how about you?

Invalid_86
04-10-2008, 09:02 AM
On a side note there are also several feats in DnD that give more combat options to smart warriors.

SableShadow
04-10-2008, 09:19 AM
DDO (and D&D) use heavily abstracted combat models; that's part of the reason why 'real life' arguments are somewhat suspect, no matter how well intentioned...just as trying to use the DDO (and D&D) models to illustrate a 'real life' argument will also be suspect.

It's really only about how much 'reality' is needed in the system to get the players to suspend disbelief.

Rav'n
04-10-2008, 10:03 AM
Quote
True enough, though I think the devs are shooting for a certain % of players to pick up the Way of enhancements...someone there apparently thinks it isn't sweet enough to get the numbers they want.

I re-spec'd my rogue BASED on the Roleplay I wanted for my Rogue. I call him my "Chinese Acrobat". Does the Thief/Acrobat currently give me any bonuses in quests? Probably not. But now when I tumble thru a Trap... I jump and Roll. Which LOOKS absolutely Groovilicious!

Invalid_86
04-10-2008, 11:12 AM
Go find a piece of rebar, 1/2" diameter, about 3' long, and start swinging it. Start off with just a simple one handed swing from right to left(or vice versa if left handed) clear across your body and see how long you can swing it as fast as possible. Now, once you notice it hurting your arm/wrist(which probably won't take long), stop and rest a bit. Now, repeat this with a slight twist, swing halfway across your body and whip it straight back on a reverse course. In a very short time you'll understand the purpose of this exercise, which is exactly what this is, one I use myself and that I made all my students use as well.


My shoulders hurt just thinking about this one!

Many martial arts also take an interest in learning about using a bokken, which is in effect training to use a
katana except you use a wooden sword. In this every movement should use your whole body's strength (yep I said
strength) as one when striking. Many experienced martial artists will spend some time working on this art- just to find
themselves with sore shoulders the next day! And that's from swinging what's basically a stick!

I know when I first started my shoulders were stiff for two days. But then again maybe I'm just getting old! (laughs)


Quote
I re-spec'd my rogue BASED on the Roleplay I wanted for my Rogue. I call him my "Chinese Acrobat". Does the Thief/Acrobat currently give me any bonuses in quests? Probably not. But now when I tumble thru a Trap... I jump and Roll. Which LOOKS absolutely Groovilicious!

Now that's why playing thief acrobats is cool! They don't need a made up staff bonus.

Rav'n
04-10-2008, 01:02 PM
As an FYI.... Darex can be found 'backflipping' over the tables in the Everfull Flagon. Why? Because it's Cool! That and he has his hat out ...pan handling his skills.... :eek: ... working Oh so hard for a hand out!

roadkill525
04-10-2008, 01:34 PM
I don;t know... some of the arguments only go so far.

quarterstaffs are light, and they weight is held in 2 hands. take that swinging the metal stick exersize... now use 2 hands to swing it... it just got alot easier. extend the length to what 4'? yse yer offhand as a pivot point for the stick. doesn;t take much effort, I've no practice in martial arts, pretty damn weak to boot, least compared to eyr average person in the time period we saposta be playing in. and I have no problems playing around with a quarter staff, swiging full out, thrusting full power... or trying to change direction with it. quarterstaffs are 2 handed weapons... but they are not swong like a greatsword.

Emili
04-10-2008, 02:04 PM
Remember any weapon in the off-hand is only 1/2 x str mod damage... in the primary hand is 1 x str mod damage and in both hands is 1 1/2 x str mod damage... Personally I can see where a staff may seem a tad difficult as it is actually a double weapon.

DDO varies from core rules in terms of weapons quite a bit:

Off the top of my head weapons work like below in DnD core.

Light weapon:
Many people I think do not understand what a Light weapon is by comaprison to a one-handed weapon... all light weapons may be used in the off hand or the primary hand - in the primary hand you get full str bonus to damage or in the off-hand then half... The thing about a light weapon is you cannot use it in two-hands at all...

One-Handed Weapon:
A one-handed weapon can be in the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, half Str bonus if it’s used in the off hand. A one-handed weapon may be used with two hands for one and a half times Str bonus damages. The exception is Rapier - which is always a one-handed weapon <- this I believe is one of the reasons they add it into the finesse feat weapon list.

Two-Handed Weapon:
Always required two hands and thus get one and a half times the Str bonus damages.

A word on arrows... those that hit a target are destroyed, while those which miss are destroyed or just get lost 50&#37; of the time.

A word on Pole-arms... A spear for instance has a reach of ten feet and may be used to hit an opponent in front of you but not directly completely adjacent to you.

A word on exotics:
Bastard swords... anyone with martial weapon proficiency can use them in two hands - no penalty. The exotic weapon feat allows those who take it to weild the weapon in one hand should they wish..

Dwarven axe... again like the bastard sword this is treated like a big axe and anyone with martial weapon proficency can use it in two hands with no penalty. The feat allows you to weild it in one hand if you wish. Dwarves with martial weapon proficency basically get this feat free because they of course they're dwarves.

Urgrosh... again like the dwarven axe and bastard sword martial weapon proficency is required to use it ... but you need the proficency to treat it like you're fighting with two weapons instead of one (it's a double weapon). Those without the exotic feat may only make one attack instead of treated it like a double weapon... and of course dwarves get this proficiency if they have martial proficency.

Double weapons ... are not treated like TWF in DnD either.

Quarterstaff
A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

DNDJESS
04-10-2008, 04:34 PM
DDO (and D&D) use heavily abstracted combat models; that's part of the reason why 'real life' arguments are somewhat suspect, no matter how well intentioned...just as trying to use the DDO (and D&D) models to illustrate a 'real life' argument will also be suspect.

It's really only about how much 'reality' is needed in the system to get the players to suspend disbelief.

Well said. The arguments made against such things as finessable staffs just baffle me. If your imagination so limited that you can't deal with the idea of a staff being swung in a dextrous manner, you need to find a new hobby. If you can't accept the concept of a finessable staff, but you're OK with a ring that can make you fall like a feather and drop 50' without hurting yourself, or a necklace that can allow you to stay underwater for an infinite amount of time, you seriously need to seek professional help.

Rav'n
04-10-2008, 04:44 PM
I'll be a little more diplomatic than the above poster... :eek:

Like many of you who frequent this board, I study and have studied various forms of Martial combat. I have to say, if you've never seen an Eastern Martial Artist with a Quarter staff.... you're missing something. UN-FREAKn-BELIEVABLE!! is all I can say! The Dexterity used is amazing!

To call them an Artist is an Understatement.

kk... going back to my "Table Flips" in the Everful Flagon on 'Argo' please come by and throw some loose coin, Vorpals, +3 Tomes... what ever you can spare into the +2 Intel Cap!

Invalid_86
04-10-2008, 10:34 PM
Well said. The arguments made against such things as finessable staffs just baffle me. If your imagination so limited that you can't deal with the idea of a staff being swung in a dextrous manner, you need to find a new hobby. If you can't accept the concept of a finessable staff, but you're OK with a ring that can make you fall like a feather and drop 50' without hurting yourself, or a necklace that can allow you to stay underwater for an infinite amount of time, you seriously need to seek professional help.

Ah I see you are still confused about staff combat in 3.5, and think that having a high Dex does not benefit a staff user. Not so.

A staff is a simple weapon. Pretty much anyone can pick it up and swing it two handed like a big pinata stick. Not subtle but a good whack to the head from a gnarled staff will knock some sense into someone.

Then there are the dextrous types, who with training can unlock to real strength of a quarterstaff- use as a dual weapon. If you have a high enough dexterity you can take the two weapon fighting chain of feats and apply them to the staff, gaining almost twice as many attacks per round with the weapon. That is nothing to sneeze at. Of course you need a high dex- a 15-19 depending on how far you want to go- and the desire to master this ability and spend the feats on it. This is the cool twirling lashing out with both ends looks really great in the movies staff wielder.

Thief acrobats, like any class with a high Dex, can fall into the second category. But the majority of characters who pick up a staff will end up just using it as a two handed simple weapon and just club people with it.

You are simply mistaking "Weapon Finesse" for "Two Weapon Fighting".

DNDJESS
04-11-2008, 04:32 PM
Thief acrobats, like any class with a high Dex, can fall into the second category. But the majority of characters who pick up a staff will end up just using it as a two handed simple weapon and just club people with it.

You are simply mistaking "Weapon Finesse" for "Two Weapon Fighting".

Most will, yes. But wouldn't most skilled fighters use the weapons in different ways? Yes, using it as two weapons is an option. But what about attack moves like a thrust for example? That is a two-hand maneuver, and is at least as much a dex move as strength, probably more so.

Kinda funny, after thinking about this, I had a flashback to that old Bugs Bunny 'Robin Hood' cartoon, where Daffy Duck is practicing with his staff "Ho! Ha ha! Guard! Turn! Perry! Dodge! Spin! Thrust! (thwonnnnnngggg!!!)" Now I don't know if the Warner Bros. are skilled combatants, but even they think there's more ways to use a staff than the two options you mentioned.