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Tolero
03-31-2008, 12:27 PM
Weekly Development Activities

This week's edition of the WDA is extra-meaty-tasty-crispy, because there will be no WDA next week. Enjoy!
The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in Module 7.

General

Monks have been added to the game as a new playable class!UI Improvements

A confirmation dialog has been added to the Default button in the Options UI.
There are now 20 shortcut bars available, for those who carry too many clickies/weapons/spells to fit on 10. Those of you who had previously used the unsupported methods of accessing bars 11-20 will be happy to know that they now will remember where you put them on the screen.
When examined, some scrolls did not display their level 16 UMD class requirement. This has been fixed.
Quest portal info screen text has changed. It now shows the quest difficulty along with the level.
A new click and hold to attack option has been added to the game and is defaulted to on.
NEW The Finished button in the quest objectives panel will no longer be grayed out if the player is resurrected after quest completion.
NEW If your shopping cart is empty, the buy/sell/repair button will be grayed out to prevent confusion. Spells
General Spell Changes

The turn-you-to-stone effects used by elder earth elementals and stone scorpions are now named "Petrify" so as not to confuse warforged who are immune to "flesh to stone", but not to these effects.
When you summon a monster into your own persistent AOE (cloudkill, blade barrier, wall of fire, etc), it will no longer take damage on arriving in the world.
NEW Sound Burst has had its spell description changed to reflect the fact that the stun effect can be resisted using Spell resistance.
NEW Some spells which had been able to affect foes through doors and force fields now do a better job of checking line of sight.Skills, Feats, & Abilities
General Feat Changes

Insightful Reflexes and Force of Personality feats previously required that you logout and login to take effect; now they take effect immediately.
NEW The fascinate feat for bards now has a will saving throw. The DC is the bard's perform skill plus a d20.
NEW Barbarian/Rogue multi-class characters will now get a uses per day of uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge based on the sum of their rogue and barbarian levels.
NEW Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, and Dwarven Shield Mastery now only apply when blocking with a shield. Two weapon blocking has been updated to give +2DR when blocking, only when using two weapons.
NEW Wizards now receive Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed, as no classes should receive a non-proficiency penalty with natural weapons. New Feats
The following general changes have been made to existing enhancements:
The costs of Halfling Cunning I - III and Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I - III have been reduced to 1 action point per level.
The bonus granted by Rogue Sneak Attack Training has been increased to 3 points of sneak attack damage per level.
Rogue Way of the Assassin I now grants a passive +4 bonus to sneak attack damage in addition to its other effects.
The effect of Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Rogue Way of the Assassin I active abilities, and Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I "show time" now lasts 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.
Paladin Bulwark of Good and Resistance of Good costs reduced to 1 point per level
Paladin Focus of Good now grants +3, +6, or +9 to Concentration checks.
Paladin Courage of Good now grants +2, +4, or +6 to Fear saves.
The following iconic monk feats have been added to the game:
Purity of Body – You are immune to all forms of disease, including magical or supernatural diseases.
Wholeness of Body – Permits a monk to regain health over time.
Diamond Body – You have mastered your metabolism, and are immune to poison.
Timeless Body – Your body and soul are your own, and you do not create spawn effects should you fall in combat with the undead. NOTE: This is a level 17 feat, available to level 17 Monks and higher.
Still Mind and Fast Movement for the monk have been added to the game. Enhancements
New Enhancements
Halfling Cunning IV
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack rolls when flanking an enemy, bringing the total increase to 4.
Halfling Guile I
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 3 Halfling, Halfling Cunning I, 7 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain +2 to your sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff.
Halfling Guile II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 7 Halfling, Halfling Cunning II, Halfling Guile I, 22 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 4, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 2.
Halfling Guile III
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 11 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, Halfling Guile II, 37 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 6, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 3.
Halfling Guile IV
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Halfling, Halfling Cunning IV, Halfling Guile III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 8, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 4.
UPDATED Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Rogue, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit with your sneak attacks.
UPDATED Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Prereq: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)
UPDATED Rogue Wrack Construct I
Prereq: Rogue level 3, Rogue Disable Device I, 7 Action Points Spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 1d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. (6 second cool-down.)
Rogue Wrack Construct II
Prereq: Rogue level 7, Rogue Disable Device II, Rogue Wrack Construct I, 22 Action Points Spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 3d6 damage to constructs or living constructs.
Rogue Wrack Construct III
Prereq: Rogue level 11, Rogue Disable Device III, Rogue Wrack Construct II, 37 Action Points Spent
Cost: 3 Action Points
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 5d6 damage to constructs or living constructs.
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereq: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (6 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 10 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite I, Paladin Extra Smite III, 34 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier.
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite III:
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier.
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 18 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite III, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 64 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +2 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. (Yes, we realize you can't get this yet, but it will wait patiently for you to hit level 18.)
NEW Rogue Way of the Assassin II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Assassin I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +4 bonus to Sneak Attack Damage, +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. Even on a successful save, the target takes increased sneak attack damage. (10 second cool-down, no times per day limit, can only be used when sneak attacking.)
NEW Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.
NEW Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I, Rogue Dexterity III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, increases your movement rate by 10%, and 2 extra uses per rest of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants a greater increase to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to knockdown effects and slippery surfaces.
Note: Final values on all of these enhancements are still subject to change based on play-testing.
NEW Rogue Way of the Mechanic II is still in development. General Enhancement Changes
Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.
The costs of Halfling Cunning I - III and Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I - III have been reduced to 1 action point per level.
The bonus granted by Rogue Sneak Attack Training has been increased to 3 points of sneak attack damage per level.
Rogue Way of the Assassin I now grants a passive +4 bonus to sneak attack damage in addition to its other effects.
The effect of Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Rogue Way of the Assassin I active abilities, and Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I "Show time" now lasts 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.
Paladin Faith II enhancements dropped to level 6 (with appropriate drops in "Action Points Spent" requirements), to match the Cleric Faith II enhancements.
NEW Paladin auras now stack better -- previously, if two paladins who had taken different enhancements that affected their auras stood next to you, you would only benefit from one of their auras. Now, you will gain the highest AC bonus from any nearby paladin, the highest save bonus from any nearby paladin, etc.
NEW Cost of Paladin Divine Righteousness I reduced to 1 Action Point.
NEW Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I now grants increased attack speed with staves.
NEW Unarmed attacks now do damage when you cleave, whirlwind attack, and great cleave. Additionally, the following active attack feats will apply your maximum attack combo bonus when you execute an attack with them: Hamstring, Stunning Blow, Slicing Blow, Sap, Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Quivering Palm, and Stunning Fist.
Paladin Faith II enhancements dropped to level 6 (with appropriate drops in "Action Points Spent" requirements), to match the Cleric Faith II enhancements. Items

Bursting weapons now continue to increase their damage if they "burst" on an attack that has greater than a x4 damage multiplier.
Several new chain shirt appearances have been added to the treasure tables.
Gem and collectible bags now have an "auto-gather" feature that can be turned on. Whenever the player picks up a collectible or gem, it will go into a collectible or gem bag if there is room, when enabled. Auto-gathering prefers bags that already have a stack of the picked up item over bags that do not have any.
Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.
Several new chain shirt appearances have been added to the treasure tables.
The names of some item effects have been changed to avoid confusion with similarly named enhancements. The effects themselves remain the same. "Improved Maximize I", "Improved Enlarge I", "Improved Extend I", "Improved Empower II", and "Improved Empower Healing I" have been renamed to "Spell Point Discount - Maximize I", "Spell Point Discount - Enlarge I", "Spell Point Discount - Extend I", "Spell Point Discount - Empower II", and "Spell Point Discount - Empower Healing I".
The following potions are now equipped with funnels so they can be used on afflicted friends: Potion of Fear Removal, Potion of Poison Neutralization, Potion of Blindness Removal, Potion of Curse Removal, Potion of Disease Removal, Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion. The new funnels are especially easy to use so raging barbarians should have no problems with them.
NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.
NEW All of the various energy absorption treasure effects used by the M6 raid loot (Fire Absorption - 10%, Negative Energy Absorption - 10%, etc.) have been fixed so that they absorb the proper amount of incoming damage.
NEW Shields now can be randomly generated with a much wider range of enchantments. Monsters

Dispel magic no longer dispels ogre and troll rage.
A few wight priests will no longer cast cure spells on themselves.
NEW If a teleporting monster gets himself into water, he will now properly teleport home and heal himself.
NEW Previously, if you summoned a scorpion with "summon monster 2", enemy monsters might continue to attack it while it was burrowed. This should no longer happen (they might attack it as it is doing the burrowing animation, but won't chase it around while it is underground).
NEW Previously, some Orcs would stand around doing nothing (most notably Orc Rangers). Now they should work.
NEW Tieflings are now correctly immune to hold person and other spells that should not work on outsiders.
NEW Two of the shroud lieutenants were not properly buffing their pals; their boss has smacked them around a bit, and now they will play better with others. Quests

The Shroud
The agents of the twelve have been studying the shroud and report a shift in the 13th moon. They speculate the moon of death’s influence will wan in the northwest part of the valley.
Twilight Canyon
The way to the upper levels will now only open for players who speak to Paetus after he has been rescued.
Sands of Menechtarun
All zombies in the Menechtarun area now drop the special desert tokens instead of regular collectibles.
Orchard of the Macabre
A named rare blackbone skeleton in the Orchard of the Macabre now casts spells.
The Catacombs
NEW Oozes and slimes have disappeared but, other vermin may lurk in the shadows. Shopping

The potion vendor ogre in Gianthold now sells potions of Lesser Restoration.
The arcane scroll vendor for level 4 and 5 scrolls in House Jorasco no longer sells any level 3 scrolls.
NEW Soul gems will now appear under the Ingredients category in the auction house. Other Changes

If you had unlocked the bonus character slot from 1750 favor, it would intermittently not show up. That should no longer happen.
Previously, some poison dart traps (in the Sunken Sewer, for example) would damage warforged (and others wearing poison immunity items) despite their poison immunity. This should no longer happen. Similarly, there were a few dart traps that did fire/sonic/cold/etc damage, which would bypass appropriate damage resistances. This should also no longer happen.
The save DC's on traps that scale with difficulty have been lowered on Hard and Elite. Elite trap save DC's are now roughly equivalent to what Hard trap save DC's were before this change. (For example, a trap that previously had a save DC of 30 on Elite will now be DC 22.) Spot, search, disable, and damage values remain unchanged.
It is now easier to see when standing in an incendiary cloud
Scrolls that were missing a level 16 UMD class requirement will now display correctly when examined.
Bidding on an item from the Bids page of the auction house that you have been outbid on will no longer result in an error message.
Players who perish in either the realm of Dolurrh in Desecrated Temple or in the fire rooms in Rainbow in Dark will no longer leave their soul stones behind when they teleport out.
AOE buff spells cast in tavern brawl pits will now hit yourself (but not anyone else, since everyone else in the pit is your enemy!)
When wielding a finesse weapon, the to-hit value in the Inventory panel will now correctly display using your Dex mod if your Dex mod is greater then you Str mod.
Previously, the DC listed for combat feat tooltips did not include bonuses from enhancements and feats. This was a visual glitch only; they were still being added to the actual DC in combat. This is now fixed.
The fire effect for a minotaur shaman staff no longer hangs in the air after it has been shattered with a cold spell.
The teleport bug in The Shadow Crypt where the camera detaches and is floating in water has been fixed.

Ritual Sacrifice: Killing Ramak Orenah before the objective to do so appears, will no longer result in a broken quest.
Sirroco will now cause blindness only on critical hits, as per the description.
A visual bug was fixed where the XP or SP graphic bars would be in the wrong position, if your XP or SP changed in both directions rapidly. For example, if you were damaged, at the same time you were healed, the bar would move the the wrong position, however, the XP value shown would have been correct. .
Previously, spell focus: transmutation was not working. Now it works.
It is no longer possible to break some quests by having a pet trigger a monster entry.
The black abbot goggle effect will no longer persist if the goggles are destroyed while you are wearing them.
Bidding on an item that you have been outbid on, from the bids page of the auction house no longer results in an error message.
The description for the "Improved Uncanny Dodge" feat has been corrected; it now states correctly that the feat gives +6 to reflex saves.
The Lesser, Improved, and Greater Regeneration raid loot effects have been fixed so you no longer have to re-equip the items after zoning to get the effect reapplied.
It is now easier to see when standing in an incindeary cloud.
NEW Previously, some poison dart traps (in the Sunken Sewer, for example) would damage warforged (and others wearing poison immunity items) despite their poison immunity. This should no longer happen. Similarly, there were a few dart traps that did fire/sonic/cold/etc damage, which would bypass appropriate damage resistances. This should also no longer happen.
NEW If you had unlocked the bonus character slot from 1750 favor, it would randomly not show up. That should no longer happen.
NEW Ladders in the following dungeons have been fixed: Redfang, ShanToKor part 1 - The Kobold's Blockade, Stop Hazadill’s Shipment, Garrison’s Missing Pack, The Waterworks part 1, Waterworks part 2, Waterworks Adventure Zone, Delera's Part 1.
NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.
NEW While in a live event area (the one that allows spell casting in public areas), you no longer take the death penalty and death wear.
NEW Some areas of the game are a bit foggier because of the battles that have been occurring there.7.7

ArkoHighStar
03-31-2008, 12:27 PM
yay

rogue and pally stuff is finally starting to look nice

artvan_delet
03-31-2008, 12:31 PM
Exalted Smite a nice addition, and there are rewards for high level paladins. Thanks. Along with BOG 4, these are two nice improvements.

If we are stuck with the uses per rest smite mechanic, then I request we reduce or eliminate the smite cooldown.

Aspenor
03-31-2008, 12:32 PM
/waits for more level 8 arcane and cleric spells

Westerner
03-31-2008, 12:34 PM
NEW The fascinate feat for bards now has a will saving throw. The DC is the bard's perform skill plus a d20.
Will Perform items raise the DC?

jhorn02
03-31-2008, 12:34 PM
I think this might be my favorite, unanticipated, addition this week:

NEW Shields now can be randomly generated with a much wider range of enchantments.

Tolero
03-31-2008, 12:35 PM
Will Perform items raise the DC?

Yes perform items will raise it. Bring forth the perform boost items! :D

Cowdenicus
03-31-2008, 12:36 PM
Now if we could see some love for clerics......

Eladrin
03-31-2008, 12:36 PM
I think this might be my favorite, unanticipated, addition this week:

NEW Shields now can be randomly generated with a much wider range of enchantments.
That's the direct result of the thread that mentioned the overabundance of Ghost Touch shields.

Laith
03-31-2008, 12:37 PM
Yes perform items will raise it. Bring forth the perform boost items! :D
you should add "though ultimately, they should be unnecessary, as often fascinate will already be the hardest will save in the game"

;)

Coldin
03-31-2008, 12:37 PM
You know, I see a good deal of paladin love, and a little rogue love. Just saying, why isn't there any enhancements to boost a rogue's crit range or modifier while sneak attacking, or at least something similar?

Just kinda in a complaining type of mood. WotTA and WotA II both look pretty nice, and I'll probably switch my rogue over to one of those since WotM isn't getting a boost anytime soon, and traps are a piece of cake anyway.

And I wonder where the new Iron Companion enhancements are? ;)

Vorn
03-31-2008, 12:38 PM
Nice Pally/Rogue love. I may have to take my Pally off mule duty.:)

No more slimes in the Catacombs! Yea!!! I love that quest series.

/hopes for fighter enhancements like weaponmaster. Mod 8?

Tolero
03-31-2008, 12:38 PM
you should add "though ultimately, they should be unnecessary, as odds are fascinate will already be the hardest will save in the game"

;)

Perhaps. But for people who didn't invest heavily in perform, those boost items may come in handy, or for people who like to reallocate a few skill points in other areas ^^

Dylos_Moon
03-31-2008, 12:38 PM
Why is Tolero posting the WDA, what happened to Q?

Dariun
03-31-2008, 12:38 PM
NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.


That's very very cool. I will definitely be spending some time out in the graveyard once this is live.




P.S. Any chance of making part 2 of deleras soloable? (i.e., get rid of that sequence where someone has to throw a lever while someone else runs down a corridor). Pretty please?

Tolero
03-31-2008, 12:40 PM
Why is Tolero posting the WDA, what happened to Q?

Nothing "happened" to him. No need to panic hehehe.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-31-2008, 12:40 PM
NEW The fascinate feat for bards now has a will saving throw. The DC is the bard's perform skill plus a d20.

Muhahaha time to flood the auction house with all those Perform +15 necklaces I keep looting.



NEW Soul gems will now appear under the Ingredients category in the auction house.


Muhahaha time to flood the auction house with all those Soul gems Jackknife keeps looting.



7.7


Is this the number of weeks until mod 7 is released?

Garth

Aspenor
03-31-2008, 12:42 PM
Nothing "happened" to him. No need to panic hehehe.

So says the the usurper!!!

You put hemlock in his coffee didn't you T

Laith
03-31-2008, 12:42 PM
Perhaps. But for people who didn't invest heavily in perform, those boost items may come in handy, or for people who like to reallocate a few skill points in other areas ^^
fair enough, though i wasn't bashing the items themselves.

build options are always good.
maxing out perform has (and will never be) required for fascinate. if you do max it though... perform items are less than required.

Dylos_Moon
03-31-2008, 12:42 PM
Nothing "happened" to him. No need to panic hehehe.

Just like nothing "happened" to +Sir?

Laith
03-31-2008, 12:44 PM
Just like nothing "happened" to +Sir?1 point for San'tar...

later it will be discovered whether this point was the good kind, or the bad kind. :)

Turial
03-31-2008, 12:44 PM
Nothing "happened" to him. No need to panic hehehe.
That brings up the question of "what he did to himself?"

Syrin
03-31-2008, 12:45 PM
This is the best WDA in a long time, and proves you guys are really making an effort to balance rogues and paladins. :)

Lithic
03-31-2008, 12:45 PM
NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

And about time! :D

This just made my month.

Edit: As for the new tribute item, it is essentially a stone of good luck, with +5% exp bonus, a static location and lower min level (stone is lvl 7, new item was lvl 5 in the video). Will there be an update for those who cherish their old stone's of good luck and had a hard time getting one (maybe providing +1 luck bonus to ac and damage as well as saves/skills), or will it be relegated to useless but super rare item?

Dexxaan
03-31-2008, 12:45 PM
Exalted Smite a nice addition, and there are rewards for high level paladins. Thanks. Along with BOG 4, these are two nice improvements.

If we are stuck with the uses per rest smite mechanic, then I request we reduce or eliminate the smite cooldown.

I`d prefer the cooldown kept and the uses per rest eliminated..... What say you Turbine?

And Cowdenicus....u play a Cleric...what do you want...? Firewall and DancingBalls?

llevenbaxx
03-31-2008, 12:46 PM
You know, I see a good deal of paladin love, and a little rogue love. Just saying, why isn't there any enhancements to boost a rogue's crit range or modifier while sneak attacking, or at least something similar?



Were rogues really hurting for damage? I sure know palys were and will prolly continue too.

Smite enhancements will definitely get me to repec for more smites again to check out if they play as well as they look on paper..er pixel. Will hold any judgement for then.

Cowdenicus
03-31-2008, 12:46 PM
I`d prefer the cooldown kept and the uses per rest eliminated..... What say you Turbine?

And Cowdenicus....u play a Cleric...what do you want...? Firewall and DancingBalls?

well firewall would mean that clerics have the fire domain..... oh wait, yeah we dont have domains in ddo.

Yet another nerf in the long list of nerfs to clerics in DDO. Hey but Pallies can use turn undeads to cast a level 9 cleric spell now. WOOT. :rolleyes:

rpasell
03-31-2008, 12:47 PM
NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.


Very nice!!

Dariuss
03-31-2008, 12:48 PM
liking the Pali's Rez enhancement alot

Aspenor
03-31-2008, 12:48 PM
well firewall would mean that clerics have the fire domain..... oh wait, yeah we dont have domains in ddo.

Yet another nerf in the long list of nerfs to clerics in DDO. Hey but Pallies can use turn undeads to cast a level 9 cleric spell now. WOOT. :rolleyes:
I thought they used their lay on hands, not turns....

dameron
03-31-2008, 12:49 PM
That's the direct result of the thread that mentioned the overabundance of Ghost Touch shields.

And "Sacred". In general it just has to go, or only drop on simple blunt weapons and maybe necklaces.

I can think of a few mods that would be well worth it on shields (Elemental Guard, Weighted (!), Fearsome (!)) here's hoping those made it in.

Coldin
03-31-2008, 12:49 PM
Were rogues really hurting for damage?


Yes, specifically if a rogue is not getting sneak attacks or by himself.

Boulderun
03-31-2008, 12:49 PM
Perhaps. But for people who didn't invest heavily in perform, those boost items may come in handy, or for people who like to reallocate a few skill points in other areas ^^

Reallocate?

Laith
03-31-2008, 12:50 PM
Yet another nerf in the long list of nerfs to clerics in DDO. Hey but Pallies can use turn undeads to cast a level 9 cleric spell now. WOOT. :rolleyes:they can res what? 4-5 times a rest? (using up lay on hands each time, not a turn)
so the difference is either they heal someone before they die, or they do it after. BFD.
now that true res is a clicky, and res shrines are infinite use: who really cares?

DDO Clerics have never been found wanting, for all the "nerfs" people may cry.

GhostNull
03-31-2008, 12:51 PM
While Exalted Smiting is a step in the right direction for more damage, it's still a one-shot deal with a cool-down. Paladins still need something for more "consistent" DPS, maybe in the form of a boost. Oh wait, Divine Might would do just that, however...

Looking forward to Paladin Redemption though, gives Paladins a reason to go past level 11 now. Might also make high-level parties seek out a pure Paladin now.

Fahkrin
03-31-2008, 12:52 PM
What about fixing the random occurrences of WF barbs experiencing fatigue after their rage ends? I've bug-reported it a bunch of times myself...

Serpent
03-31-2008, 12:53 PM
well firewall would mean that clerics have the fire domain..... oh wait, yeah we dont have domains in ddo.

Yet another nerf in the long list of nerfs to clerics in DDO. Hey but Pallies can use turn undeads to cast a level 9 cleric spell now. WOOT. :rolleyes:

If you have trouble with your cleric than you need to pick a new class after all this time. I have a cleric he can dps and he can heal. Hit for between 50 and 60 on a non crit and his mcmw hits for over 135 every time, these are non crit numbers. His dps for spells are awesome too, comet fall for over 300, BB in the 350 range and searing light that hits for 200+. Only problem clerics have is not enough level 8 spells. I agree with you that they need to fix that, but beyond that just give it up already. You sound like you know less and less about clerics each time


as far as the WDA

The pally stuff is interesting but, it does seem too clicky dependent, hopefully they will come up with more stuff. The smiting action will be nice if it doesn't fail to register half the time and the ability to raise dead is neat but not really necessary with all the raise ability already in the game.

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 12:56 PM
Perhaps. But for people who didn't invest heavily in perform, those boost items may come in handy, or for people who like to reallocate a few skill points in other areas ^^

I actually think where this will have the biggest ramifications will be for low level bards where fascinate is most useful because arcanes are not as potent at those low levels. At the high levels gear, green steal items, etc. will be easier to attain, but fascinate will not be needed whether mass hold, mass suggestion, firewall, bb, fireball, are used, etc. The end result of all this is that there will be a lot less fascinates taking place in game which is actually a bad thing for ddo because fascinating is a truly unique aspect to the game. My advice to the devs is to add a few static items to low level quests which improve fascinating; thus reinforcing the advantages of fascinating. Like a +7 perform item min level 3 from ww for instance.

Tallyn
03-31-2008, 12:56 PM
well firewall would mean that clerics have the fire domain..... oh wait, yeah we dont have domains in ddo.

Yet another nerf in the long list of nerfs to clerics in DDO. Hey but Pallies can use turn undeads to cast a level 9 cleric spell now. WOOT. :rolleyes:

Nerf? What nerf, because other classes get more powerful Clerics are nerfed? *confused*

Anyways, singularly Clerics are the most powerful class in all of DDO and pen and paper D&D in my opinion.

rpasell
03-31-2008, 12:58 PM
Anyways, singularly Clerics are the most powerful class in all of DDO and pen and paper D&D in my opinion.

Druids.

Elsiah
03-31-2008, 01:00 PM
Oh, sweet god thank you!

Do you have ANY idea how hard it's been to justify being a level 16 pure pally until today? Thank you, turbine, for giving me the reasons i KNEW you would to have my main be a crazy pick-weilding pure paladin. WELL worth it! jeez, all my friends are gonna be dying now that i will be able to smite with such crazy numbers...

Tallyn
03-31-2008, 01:01 PM
Druids.

Hmmm, Druids can be strong, but PM me a build that can out-melee a battle cleric, or outspell an offensive caster cleric or is as defensive as a Cleric. Just basic books by the way, because I haven't reviewed too many of the new druid spells that were published with the other "Complete" series of books and what not.

ArkoHighStar
03-31-2008, 01:06 PM
I actually think where this will have the biggest ramifications will be for low level bards where fascinate is most useful because arcanes are not as potent at those low levels. At the high levels gear, green steal items, etc. will be easier to attain, but fascinate will not be needed whether mass hold, mass suggestion, firewall, bb, fireball, are used, etc. The end result of all this is that there will be a lot less fascinates taking place in game which is actually a bad thing for ddo because fascinating is a truly unique aspect to the game. My advice to the devs is to add a few static items to low level quests which improve fascinating; thus reinforcing the advantages of fascinating. Like a +7 perform item min level 3 from ww for instance.

we have them, its just nobody uses them. Phiarlans ring comes to mind, and gwylans blade(stacks with other perform items) they are min lvl 5.

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 01:11 PM
we have them, its just nobody uses them. Phiarlans ring comes to mind, and gwylans blade(stacks with other perform items) they are min lvl 5.

Both are from gwylan's stand a level 7 quest and the ring only adds +5 and blade +2. They are not static rewards but random drops. You can find better items on the AH - +7 at that level. Regardless there should be a really nice low level static reward which is higher then appropriate for that level. If it is like a tr or delaras 50% drop rate that is fine with me. What is going to happen is fascinate will begin to disappear from the game. Fireballs and firewalls already ruin the fun at high levels and now it will be ruined at low levels as well.

BlueBadger
03-31-2008, 01:15 PM
I love how Tolero hints at reallocating skill points and hardly anyone seems to notice or discuss it. I think that this is the single biggest change on all the WDA.

rpasell
03-31-2008, 01:18 PM
I love how Tolero hints at reallocating skill points and hardly anyone seems to notice or discuss it. I think that this is the single biggest change on all the WDA.

I think she misspoke/you misunderstood. I took that to mean for those who don't allocate max points to perform, not that you will be able to change how you allocated skill points..

TreknaQudane
03-31-2008, 01:18 PM
NEW Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I, Rogue Dexterity III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, increases your movement rate by 10%, and 2 extra uses per rest of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants a greater increase to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to knockdown effects and slippery surfaces.



Would that stave bonus include the Shining Crescent or is it only for staff weapons type Quaterstaff?

Laith
03-31-2008, 01:20 PM
What is going to happen is fascinate will begin to disappear from the game.
i don't get it.

without items, but with maxed skill, fascinate averages as on par (or better) in DC with an equivalent caster casting his highest level spell.

at lvl1 (assume 18 stat):
fascinate: 4ranks + 4stat + 1d20 = 9-28 DC (avg = 18.5 DC)
lvl1 spell: 10base + 4stat + 1spell level + 1 focus =16 DC

at lvl16 (assume 30 stat):
fascinate: 19ranks + 10stat + 1d20 = 30-49 DC (avg = 39.5 DC)
lvl8 spell: 10base + 10stat + 8spell level + 2 focus = 30 DC

Dylos_Moon
03-31-2008, 01:21 PM
I love how Tolero hints at reallocating skill points and hardly anyone seems to notice or discuss it. I think that this is the single biggest change on all the WDA.

And I think the single biggest change is that this is the only WDA not posted by Q since 7/2/07.

Eladrin
03-31-2008, 01:23 PM
Would that stave bonus include the Shining Crescent or is it only for staff weapons type Quaterstaff?
It will include the Shining Crescents.

Ragons
03-31-2008, 01:23 PM
Since fascinate now has a saving throw, will fascinate work against Orange Names?

Shaamis
03-31-2008, 01:26 PM
NEW! Shields now can be randomly generated with a much wider range of enchantments.PLEASE do this for Half-plate as well! PLEASE

Zenako
03-31-2008, 01:28 PM
i don't get it.

without items, but with maxed skill, fascinate averages as on par (or better) in DC with an equivalent caster casting his highest level spell.

at lvl1 (assume 18 stat):
fascinate: 4ranks + 4stat + 1d20 = 9-28 DC (avg = 18.5 DC)
lvl1 spell: 10base + 4stat + 1spell level + 1 focus =16 DC

at lvl16 (assume 30 stat):
fascinate: 19ranks + 10stat + 1d20 = 30-49 DC (avg = 39.5 DC)
lvl8 spell: 10base + 10stat + 8spell level + 2 focus = 30 DC

items just go to FURTHER the advantage to using fascinate.


Umm, don't forget all the spells, and things which add to Perform Skill as well (GH, Skill Boost, Focusing Chant, Luck Items). In general the effect will be almost nothing for any Bard who has kept Perform maxed out anyway. For example, my Spellsinger will have something on the order of a 19 (ranks)+12(stat)+4(GH)+2(head) = 37 in quests even without a Perform Item on him. add in one of the 15's I have and the DC is 52+ now. Don't see very many WILL saves coming into that neighborhood anytime soon. It does remove the song from being a 100% success to a 95% success for most bards. Warchanters builds might suffer a bit more depending on how that went about it.


Overall this WDA contains lots of yumminess for a lot of reasons. The explorer areas will help those of us compulsive types, and they figured out a way to avoid powerleveling effects. Lots of nice new options for Paly's, some for Rogues and few general things too. Like the cleaning up of the catacombs, those stupid slimes and oozes made that a low level hellride when you combine various undead with oozes it often ended up with trashed gear.

Strakeln
03-31-2008, 01:30 PM
While I think applying a save to fascinate is long overdue, it is yet another overwhelming example of the need for a skill respec capability. For over two years, there has been little use for the perform skill, now all of a sudden it becomes highly important (esp. vs casters with Force of Personality), yet there is no recourse for bards who decided to not waste skill points for RP purposes.

Yes, many of us have learned from being screwed over by skill changes in the past... my bards all have max perform... but come on, Turbine... get with the program here. You recognize the need to respec enhancements and feats, bite the bullet and implement a skill respec.

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 01:30 PM
i don't get it.

without items, but with maxed skill, fascinate averages as on par (or better) in DC with an equivalent caster casting his highest level spell.

at lvl1 (assume 18 stat):
fascinate: 4ranks + 4stat + 1d20 = 9-28 DC (avg = 18.5 DC)
lvl1 spell: 10base + 4stat + 1spell level + 1 focus =16 DC

at lvl16 (assume 30 stat):
fascinate: 19ranks + 10stat + 1d20 = 30-49 DC (avg = 39.5 DC)
lvl8 spell: 10base + 10stat + 8spell level + 2 focus = 30 DC

items just go to FURTHER the advantage to using fascinate.

It is really easy to cherry pick numbers like you did. At 1st level and 16th level fascinate will be at its strongest. The 1st level for 4 ranks in the skill and the 16th for the inevitable items you will get. The levels that are worrisome are 4th - 12th. 4th level fascinate is +11 + roll which will land alot less then now currently. Bards love fascinate and think it is cool, but if it doesn't help that takes away another nice feature in the game.

Yaga_Nub
03-31-2008, 01:31 PM
Since fascinate now has a saving throw, will fascinate work against Orange Names?

That would be great.

ShadesofGreen
03-31-2008, 01:35 PM
NEW Two of the shroud lieutenants were not properly buffing their pals; their boss has smacked them around a bit, and now they will play better with others. [/LIST][U][B]Quests


MuHahaha, oh yeah my laughter cause my boss to give me that; "You're not really working are you?" look! Priceless. Thanks Tolero.

Laith
03-31-2008, 01:36 PM
It is really easy to cherry pick numbers like you did. At 1st level and 16th level fascinate will be at its strongest. The 1st level for 4 ranks in the skill and the 16th for the inevitable items you will get. i didn't include items.
infact, i gave every advantage to spell casting, because i gave them focus feats but DIDN'T include skill boosting buffs for fascinate.


The problem with the "cherry picking" complaint is that both DCs and skill values raise LINEARLY as you level.

spell DCs go up 1 every 2 character levels.
skill DCs (and therefor fascinate DCs) go up 1 every 1 character level.

due to this. fascinate DCs improve at a quicker rate than spell DCs. At some point (depending on whether you look at average or worst-d20-roll) fascinate wins out hands-down.

worst-d20-roll tie (with no modifiers) falls at lvl13
fascinate: 16ranks + 1onthed20 = 17DC
spell (lvl7): 10base + 7spellLevel = 17 DC



worst-d20-roll: fascinate lose at lvl11
fascinate: 14ranks + 1onthed20 = 15DC
spell (lvl6): 16 DC

worst-d20-roll: fascinate win at lvl15
fascinate: 18 + 1onthed20 = 19
spell (lvl8): 18 DC

as you can see, the DC for fascinate goes up 1:1 for every level.
the DC for spells goes up .5:1 for every level.
spells start out at 11, fascinate at 5 (at lvl1).
naturally it takes a while to catch up.

~~~~

average-d20-roll has fascinate winning at lvl1.
fascinate: 3skill + 10.5rollond20 = 13 DC
spell lvl1: 10base + 1spell level = 11 DC
fascinate's lead just gets better as you progress.



at lvl16+, fascinate DCs are higher, assuming the same stat modifier and no buffs or feats.
this linear relationship would have been easier to see before if i had used the same stat modifier at lvl1 & 16, but i went for the more "real case" example.

stockwizard5
03-31-2008, 01:36 PM
Oh, sweet god thank you!

Do you have ANY idea how hard it's been to justify being a level 16 pure pally until today? Thank you, turbine, for giving me the reasons i KNEW you would to have my main be a crazy pick-weilding pure paladin. WELL worth it! jeez, all my friends are gonna be dying now that i will be able to smite with such crazy numbers...

There is nothing here justifying Pure Palidin through Level 16.

Compared to your Pally 10 - an effective +1 to Crit Range * 5 uses provides (at best) a 25% chance for a single additional crit per rest - that is less than one per quest - I very much doubt your friends (or any additional enemies) will be "dying".

1. Replace Smite Clicky with Smite Cooldown (Manyshot Style)
2. Update Divine Sacrifice (Level 4/8/12/16/20) to Permanent -10HP/Level and -10SP/Level for Inherant +1d6/Level vs Evil (Double for Undead)

MysticTheurge
03-31-2008, 01:37 PM
You know, I see a good deal of paladin love, and a little rogue love. Just saying, why isn't there any enhancements to boost a rogue's crit range or modifier while sneak attacking, or at least something similar?

So a no-uses-per-day, any-time-you're-sneak-attacking, short-cooldown death attack isn't enough?

;)

Oh, and while you guys are working on shields, can you do to shields what you did to scepters? I'd love to get some shields that boost spellcasting (spell penetration, potency et al., focus items) with a enhancement bonus based on the level of the item.

MysticTheurge
03-31-2008, 01:38 PM
There is nothing here justifying Pure Palidin through Level 16.

Yeah, but there's stuff for Paladin 18 and Paladin 19.

And you've got to be Paladin 16 before you can get either of those.

Gratch
03-31-2008, 01:40 PM
UPDATED Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Prereq: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)


So I finally figure out what to do on my UMD character who now has a +6 cha skills shroud item that has 300 sp on it for a character with no sp bar. Why take a 4th level of paly at the next level raise (mod 8?), so I can swap between casting virtue and using Paladin Divine Sacrifice. Mean devs reading my mind and wondering, "But will you take two levels of paladin for that?".

Nope... probably not.

MysticTheurge
03-31-2008, 01:42 PM
NEW Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I, Rogue Dexterity III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, increases your movement rate by 10%, and 2 extra uses per rest of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants a greater increase to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to knockdown effects and slippery surfaces.

Oh, and... is there a point to having a Balance bonus if you're immune to knockdown?

Or is that simply in there on the off-chance that balance becomes useful for something else in the future?

Aeneas
03-31-2008, 01:43 PM
How are more people not excited about rogue way of the assassin 2?? Oh that's right, you all multiclassed, ROFL.

Guess i should start hoarding more invis clickies - watch your back stormreach.

Aspenor
03-31-2008, 01:45 PM
How are more people not excited about rogue way of the assassin 2?? Oh that's right, you all multiclassed, ROFL.

Guess i should start hoarding more invis clickies - watch your back stormreach.

High level rogues, FTW!!!!!

I can finally finally FINALLY play my rogue the way I have always dreamed it!!!

Tolero
03-31-2008, 01:47 PM
Just like nothing "happened" to +Sir?

Hey something definitely "happened" to +Sir, no one can find him. The Coin Lords and The Twelve have been awfully quiet about it.

rpasell
03-31-2008, 01:47 PM
High level rogues, FTW!!!!!

I can finally finally FINALLY play my rogue the way I have always dreamed it!!!

And, how much fun is my pure class halfling rogue going to have with WotA, and Halfling guile?

oooo and Cunning as well.

Ustice
03-31-2008, 01:47 PM
I would like to make a comment on the Paladin Redemption Enhancement...

While I am all for giving Paladins some more love (since a BIG part of the class from PnP is missing in DDO), I think that this goes too far outside of the bounds of the source. As far as I am aware, there isn't a precident for paladins having the ability to raise someone from the dead. They don't even get Raise Dead, at their highest level. While I can get behind the idea of giving them this ability, it seems odd to not apply this to the Cleric class as well. What I suggest is to change the ability that this is based on from Lay On Hands to Turn Undead, and then make this enhancement line available to Clerics as well. After all, clerics should be able to specialize in this sort of thing at LEAST as well.

dragnmoon
03-31-2008, 01:47 PM
Nothing "happened" to him. No need to panic hehehe.

Yet............

Taerdra
03-31-2008, 01:48 PM
2 more levels to go for my rogue... can't wait.

jggbear
03-31-2008, 01:48 PM
Hi Tolero,

Excellent WDA, however, I havent seen anything that tells me of fixing things that are broken of Mod 6:

1.- Horns as Ingredients, will they be usefull in next mod? :confused:

2.- Collectable quests on the shroud :mad:
They are not working at all.

3.- Drop rates of Chipmunk Funk, Twigs and Pebbles, they should be revised, because they are very very rare.

4.- Drop rate of Khyber Dragonshards. For my Wizard is becoming almost impossible to get enough (10K) shards to use the Trap the soul spell.

Will there be some more 8 lvl spells for Wiz, Sorc and Clrs.

Will there be more recepies for Soul Gems.

Thanks a lot for your answers.

I REALLY LOVE THIS GAME. BEST ONE IN THE WORLD.

Pargos Ranger / Rogue / Figther
Kyrolyro Wizard

RavenStormclaw
03-31-2008, 01:50 PM
Someone pointed out that there a now so many rez clickie in the game etc...that Paladin redemtion series isn't all that great. Well that is nice but Redeption 3 is restored to full health...back into battle instantly no healing needed...a 500 hp barbarian back into action instantly. That is a powerfull ability...non interuptable mind you. I will take that over a one time/rest green steel clickie any day. Thanks the gods my Pali is going pure to 20 now.

dragnmoon
03-31-2008, 01:50 PM
well firewall would mean that clerics have the fire domain..... oh wait, yeah we dont have domains in ddo.

Yet another nerf in the long list of nerfs to clerics in DDO. Hey but Pallies can use turn undeads to cast a level 9 cleric spell now. WOOT. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't a Nerf require it had been there in the first place to take away?..:D;):p

I think we need Cleric Love for all clerics...but the ones Cowdenicus play..:D;):p

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 01:51 PM
yeah, the problem with that complaint is that both DCs and skill values raise LINEARLY as you level.

spell DCs go up 1 every 2 character levels.
skill DCs (and therefor fascinate DCs) go up 1 every 1 character level.

this linear relationship would be easier to see if i had used the same stat modifier at lvl1 & 16, but i went for the more "real case" example.

Let me break it down for you. Fascination has in effect the slowest casting time of any spell in the game and its effects are less beneficial then spells such as hold monster mass, high level fireball, mass suggestion, etc. The advantage that it had previously was an auto success. At high level the spell effects that arcanes and bards have for that matter outweigh fascinate other then for occasional situation as a tactic, but at low levels the arcanes don't have the same caliber/spell points, etc so the usefulness of fascinate is greater. I would want fascinate to be a 75-80% success rate at low-mid levels otherwise its usefulness as a tactic at low levels begins to disappear. Either or dramatically speed up its casting time. Finally, I think fascinate is cool and good for the game.

Dylos_Moon
03-31-2008, 01:52 PM
Hey something definitely "happened" to +Sir, no one can find him. The Coin Lords and The Twelve have been awfully quiet about it.

The coin lords were probably bribed, they are descended from pirates after all. Of course, even without bribes, likely Omaren is the only one that might care, or that might be phased, since she sees the Deneith as her own personal army.

As for the Twelve, they never cared about Stormreach to begin with.

Stormreach has abandoned +Sir, left him to rot in Shavarrath, and now Tolero is trying to do the same with Q!

stockwizard5
03-31-2008, 01:53 PM
Yeah, but there's stuff for Paladin 18 and Paladin 19.

And you've got to be Paladin 16 before you can get either of those.

I see another crit every two quests and a tier 2 Greensteel clicky that requires 12 APs instead of none for 8 levels of Paladin?

Paladins need to be a destructive force against evil and undead.

Laith
03-31-2008, 02:00 PM
Let me break it down for you.at low level, it will continue to be one of the most broad-spectrum, biggest AoE, effective CCs at your disposal. with a save that easily rivals all other spells available to you.
to get that 70-95% success rate, odds are the bard would have to use some enhancements, skill boosts, or their low level buff spells (heroism, eagles splendor, etc).

at high level, it will continue to be nigh "un-saveable".

in both cases, it will still remain largely unused.

EspyLacopa
03-31-2008, 02:02 PM
It is really easy to cherry pick numbers like you did. At 1st level and 16th level fascinate will be at its strongest. The 1st level for 4 ranks in the skill and the 16th for the inevitable items you will get. The levels that are worrisome are 4th - 12th. 4th level fascinate is +11 + roll which will land alot less then now currently. Bards love fascinate and think it is cool, but if it doesn't help that takes away another nice feature in the game.

Worried about intervening levels? Don't be. Let's assume that the bard in question has 14 charisma, and goes up to 16 around lv10, due to a basic +2 charisma item.

Level < 10 : d20 + lvl + 5 [so, d20 + 6 to 14, avg of 16.5 to 24.5]
Level >= 10: d20 + lvl + 6 [ d20 + 16 to 22, avg of 26.5 to 32.5]

Compare to wizard/sorc/cleric with maxed out casting stat at level 1 (18 typically): Shall do side by side comparison of what the Bard's got. Take note, the Bard is very low balling it(14 base charisma, and just +2 cha from an item), whereas the Caster is min/maxing(+6 item, +2 tome, +4 leveling, whole spiel).
Wiz Lv1: 10+4+1: 15 ---- d20 + 6, avg 16-17
Wiz Lv3: 10+5+2: 17 ---- d20 + 8, avg 18-19
Wiz Lv5: 10+6+3: 19 ---- d20 + 10, avg 20-21
Wiz Lv7: 10+7+4: 21 ---- d20 + 12, avg 22-23
Wiz Lv9: 10+8+5: 23 ---- d20 + 14, avg 24-25
Wiz Lv11:10+9+6: 25 ---- d20 + 17, avg 27-28
Wiz Lv13:10+10+7:27 ----d20 + 19, avg 29-30
Wiz Lv16: 10+11+8:29 ----d20 + 22, avg 32-33

Looks like that Bard, the entire way, generally keeps up the pace with that min/max Wizard. Let's toss in Perform Items for some of those levels!

Wiz Lv1: 10+4+1: 15 ---- Bard 1: d20 + 6, avg 16-17
Wiz Lv3: 10+5+2: 17 ---- Bard 3: d20 + 9, avg 19-20 [+1 Perform Item]
Wiz Lv5: 10+6+3: 19 ---- Bard 5: d20 + 11, avg 21-22
Wiz Lv7: 10+7+4: 21 ---- Bard 7: d20 + 15, avg 25-26[+3 Perform Item]
Wiz Lv9: 10+8+5: 23 ---- Bard 9: d20 + 17, avg 27-28
Wiz Lv11:10+9+6: 25 ---- Bard 11: d20 + 22, avg 32-33[+5 Perform Item]
Wiz Lv13:10+10+7:27 ---- Bard 13: d20 + 24, avg 34-35
Wiz Lv16: 10+11+8:29 ---- Bard 16: d20 + 29, avg 39-40[+7 Perform Item]

Huh. Suddenly, that matches that wizard on average at level 1. But the Fascinate DC increases faster than the Wizard's Spell DC, and by lv13 essentially nearly always has equal or better save DC on the fascinate. And it should still be noted, for it bears repeating. . .this isn't even close to a Min/Maxed bard.

Cowdenicus
03-31-2008, 02:04 PM
Wouldn't a Nerf require it had been there in the first place to take away?..:D;):p

I think we need Cleric Love for all clerics...but the ones Cowdenicus play..:D;):p

Do I even need to say it at this point?

Zenako
03-31-2008, 02:04 PM
new Fascinate mechanics...

Ranks + Stat bonus + AP boost + Skill Boosts + Items + Spells + d20 = DC

Human level 4 bard I have

7 ranks + 5 stat + 0 AP + 2 HV + 3 item + 2 Heroism = (17-19) +d20 for the DC I will be getting at. Most of the time that will be close to 95% success anyway. Could also cast Eagles Splendor (Clickie etc) for another net of +1 IIRC. I could also choose to drop a few AP on Enhancing the skill, and may choose to now, where as before it was pointless.

As mentioned before, top end bards have no worries as it stands. The saves will be very very hard for any level appropriate mobs to resist with any success.

llevenbaxx
03-31-2008, 02:10 PM
Did it say anywhere if Paly Divine Sacrifice will fit into the regular attack chain or if will cause an interruption? Hopefully it will work like trip/stun but its not sounding like it.

MysticTheurge
03-31-2008, 02:11 PM
High level rogues, FTW!!!!!

I can finally finally FINALLY play my rogue the way I have always dreamed it!!!

It takes a lot of APs though...

I'm running the numbers and you have 4 free AP between levels 2 and 4, and 6 free ones between level 9 and 12. Everything else is accounted for until after you get WotAII.

Vienemen
03-31-2008, 02:12 PM
Spells
New spells
New Level 8 Sor/Wiz
New Mind Blank
New Prismatic Wall
New Protection from Spells
New Maze
New Planar Binding, Greater
New Moment of Prescience
New Prying Eyes, Greater
New Antipathy
New Binding
New Symbol of Insanity
New Sympathy
New Bigby's Clenched Fist
New Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere
New Scintillating Pattern
New Clone
New Create Greater Undead
New Iron Body
New Polymorph Any Object
New Temporal Stasis



Sweet!

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 02:14 PM
new Fascinate mechanics...

Ranks + Stat bonus + AP boost + Skill Boosts + Items + Spells + d20 = DC

Human level 4 bard I have

7 ranks + 5 stat + 0 AP + 2 HV + 3 item + 2 Heroism = (17-19) +d20 for the DC I will be getting at. Most of the time that will be close to 95% success anyway. Could also cast Eagles Splendor (Clickie etc) for another net of +1 IIRC. I could also choose to drop a few AP on Enhancing the skill, and may choose to now, where as before it was pointless.

As mentioned before, top end bards have no worries as it stands. The saves will be very very hard for any level appropriate mobs to resist with any success.

Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...

ArkoHighStar
03-31-2008, 02:15 PM
Sweet!

can I ask how posting a bogus list helps anyone

dragnmoon
03-31-2008, 02:16 PM
Do I even need to say it at this point?

No Heals for me?...;)

EspyLacopa
03-31-2008, 02:16 PM
can I ask how posting a bogus list helps anyone
It's not even April First yet.

stockwizard5
03-31-2008, 02:21 PM
Don't forget that Bard's can't Fascinate from the safety of distance/back line. The 100&#37; is huge to the effectiveness and willingness of Bards to engage mobs in order to perform it.

This really hurts multi-class bards the most as they probably do not have sufficient DC to be effective any longer. I understand why this should be inherantly so - but its rather unfair to many builds.

Drew (a stealth wizard build) took Bard at 13 in response to changing sneak vis-a-vis doors+levers. I understand being flexible but its getting harder and harder to find alternative ways to complete quests - as its getting harder and harder to respec creative characters to keep them viable.

Did we really have too much stealth then - do we really have too much fascinate now?

Vienemen
03-31-2008, 02:22 PM
It's not even April First yet.

Damn your right, should have waited...****


can I ask how posting a bogus list helps anyone

Got to use your imagination

MysticTheurge
03-31-2008, 02:25 PM
Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...

+3 items are quite easy to get on the auction house.

Heroism comes in potions if you really want it.

Really, though, we shouldn't even be debating this. There's just no way that a first level ability should have no save. The perform-check based save is already really powerful (and not useable in combat according to the D&D rules).

Wizards have to wait til 15th to get a single-target, short duration, no save CC spell. Bards should have never gotten a AoE, long-duration, no save CC effect at first level.

dragonoffrost
03-31-2008, 02:26 PM
Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...


I play 3 bards (2 bards and a Bardbarian) and I don't see how the two non multiclass builds will have problems with facinate sticking. The bardbarian well he's another story, but then again I never expected to use facinate with him unless he was in DEEP trouble. They key is to keep perform skill maxed , wear charisma items(or carry a wand of eagles splendor, instant +2 for a short time to facinate), and maybe use a few buffs (be it spells or pots). Items might not even be needed as Eladrin has said in an earlier post. I will do the numbers on my level 8 and level 3 bards when I get home from work but I bet right now their DC's would be pretty high. As for the Bardbarian well I'll even check him and might be shocked.

llevenbaxx
03-31-2008, 02:29 PM
I understand being flexible but its getting harder and harder to find alternative ways to complete quests - as its getting harder and harder to respec creative characters to keep them viable.

QFT. Characters with anything more than a splash level or two are really going to be missing out on alot compared to their PnP MCing counterparts. Turbine really better be careful not to go too crazy with these "endclass" lines, I shudder to think what a dual class character is thinking of this game at this point. Not very pretty.

Oran_Lathor
03-31-2008, 02:29 PM
Nice love for pallies and rogues. I'd just like to say that the acrobat and assassin II sound a LOT like the suggestions a good friend of mine posted a month or two back. Good to see the devs are listening :)

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 02:34 PM
+3 items are quite easy to get on the auction house.

Heroism comes in potions if you really want it.

Really, though, we shouldn't even be debating this. There's just no way that a first level ability should have no save. The perform-check based save is already really powerful (and not useable in combat according to the D&D rules).

Wizards have to wait til 15th to get a single-target, short duration, no save CC spell. Bards should have never gotten a AoE, long-duration, no save CC effect at first level.

What I would really like is a faster casting time on fascinate (it should be a standard action just like a spell), but we all know that will not happen because of animation issues. So making it the best dc in the game with the high inflated mobs will dc is a poor but will have to do substitute. I am not disputing the change from no save, but rather I would like a corresponding item that makes this a difficult to save event. You are actually advocating the continued twink approach (buy your +3, +5, +7 + 10 perform item) which is an inadequate solution for newer players and poor solution for existing players.

Zenako
03-31-2008, 02:34 PM
Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...

Don't know about you, but I see them all the time, just like +3 spot, search, etc items. Human Versatility is in my Human build, and I might or might not want to use it for a Perform check, but it is a very viable option which is why it is on the list but optional. Bards can readily use cure wands (gained from collectible turn ins) and should not be expected to be a main healer in my opinion and have too many cure spells cluttering up their lists. My near capped bard keeps only one Healing Spell on his active list (CSW or CCW IIRC). Can they, sure, been there and done that, but I personally found that buffing the allies and CC the mobs far better than healing the booboos.

As for people breaking the effect, all it really takes is letting them know how it works AND letting them know that if they choose to bust it all up at once instead of taking down those music lovers one by one, that I was not equipped to (or willing to) spend lots of resources healing up their avoidable damage. Expeditous retreat and run in circles while singing and soon you have a enraptured audience. Been there and done that at all levels. Kinda like giving the whole battlefield a time out....

Naso24
03-31-2008, 02:43 PM
"NEW Sound Burst has had its spell description changed to reflect the fact that the stun effect can be resisted using Spell resistance. "

I have a question about the accuracy of soundburst description. When an opponent is stunned, why are attacks not auto-crit the same as stunning blow or greater shout?

MysticTheurge
03-31-2008, 02:45 PM
I am not disputing the change from no save, but rather I would like a corresponding item that makes this a difficult to save event. You are actually advocating the continued twink approach (buy your +3, +5, +7 + 10 perform item) which is an inadequate solution for newer players and poor solution for existing players.

Fascinate will already be the hardest save in the game, before a perform item. At all levels.

Typical early-game spell DC: 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (18 casting stat) = 15
Typical early-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 charisma) = 9-28 average: 18

Typical mid-game spell DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) + 6 (22 casting stat) = 20
Typical mid-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 12 (ranks) + 6 (22 charisma) = 19-38 average: 28

Typical end-game spell DC: 10 + 8 (max spell level) + 12 (34 in casting stat) + 1 (focus item) = 31
Typical end-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 19 (max ranks in perform) + 10 (30 charisma) = 28-47 average: 39

You're going to average a higher save than any level appropriate spell. At all levels of the game.

If you add in perform items at the appropriate levels and you're just about matching and/or significantly exceeding the spell DC when you roll a 1 on your check.

Coldin
03-31-2008, 02:47 PM
So a no-uses-per-day, any-time-you're-sneak-attacking, short-cooldown death attack isn't enough?

;)


I understand your point MT. And WotA II looks pretty awesome. I'll probably be taking it come Mod 7 (assuming there is no WotM II) since my rogue has a high Int to begin with. But that's only for Assassin specced rogues, and it requires a good deal of APs to achieve. There needs to be a few more cheaper enhancements that are available to all rogues.

Can't I just be overly pessimistic for a day? :rolleyes:

Zenako
03-31-2008, 02:48 PM
Fascinate will already be the hardest save in the game, before a perform item. At all levels.

Typical early-game spell DC: 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (18 casting stat) = 15
Typical early-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 charisma) = 9-28 average: 18

Typical mid-game spell DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) + 6 (22 casting stat) = 20
Typical mid-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 12 (ranks) + 6 (22 charisma) = 19-38 average: 28

Typical end-game spell DC: 10 + 8 (max spell level) + 12 (34 in casting stat) + 1 (focus item) = 31
Typical end-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 17 (max ranks in perform) + 10 (30 charisma) = 28-47 average: 37

You're going to average a higher save than any level appropriate spell. At all levels of the game.

If you add in perform items at the appropriate levels and you're just about matching and/or significantly exceeding the spell DC when you roll a 1 on your check.


And don't forget all the other things which routinely add to SKILLS like Perform, like Luck Items and Greater Heroism for example...

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 02:53 PM
Fascinate will already be the hardest save in the game, before a perform item. At all levels.

Typical early-game spell DC: 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (18 casting stat) = 15
Typical early-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 charisma) = 9-28 average: 18

Typical mid-game spell DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) + 6 (22 casting stat) = 20
Typical mid-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 12 (ranks) + 6 (22 charisma) = 19-38 average: 28

Typical end-game spell DC: 10 + 8 (max spell level) + 12 (34 in casting stat) + 1 (focus item) = 31
Typical end-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 17 (max ranks in perform) + 10 (30 charisma) = 28-47 average: 37

You're going to average a higher save than any level appropriate spell. At all levels of the game.

If you add in perform items at the appropriate levels and you're just about matching and/or significantly exceeding the spell DC when you roll a 1 on your check.

We will see what this does to perform, but my guess without decreasing the casting time is this effectively removes this from the game. The effects of spells at end game are just better then a fascinates effects and now at low and mid levels with corresponding saves, slow fascinate casting time, and slightly lesser effects then spells bye bye fascinate..

Freeman
03-31-2008, 03:01 PM
We will see what this does to perform, but my guess without increasing the casting time is this effectively removes this from the game. The effects of spells at end game are just better then a fascinates effects and now at low and mid levels with corresponding saves, slow fascinate casting time, and slightly lesser effects then spells bye bye fascinate..

Wait, are you trying to tell me that you've actually seen Fascinate used in the game, and it wasn't under controlled testing conditions? I thought they only allowed it on Risia or something like that, given the number of times I've seen it used. Your reasons for saying it won't be used the same reasons it is rarely used now. The change to the save mechanics will have no effect on those other factors. And no, the saves are not corresponding. The low end of Fascinate DC corresponds to the high end of spell DC after around level 3 or 4. For the first 2-3 levels, you'll need a little bit of luck with the dice to get a good Fascinate off, but that's the way things are supposed to work. One bad roll can ruin your whole day.(Ask my PnP monk about his encounter with a Delayed Blast Fireball. Oh, wait, you can't. He's a pile of ashes now)

MysticTheurge
03-31-2008, 03:02 PM
Can't I just be overly pessimistic for a day? :rolleyes:

Not allowed! :p ;)

Zenako
03-31-2008, 03:05 PM
Wait, are you trying to tell me that you've actually seen Fascinate used in the game, and it wasn't under controlled testing conditions? I thought they only allowed it on Risia or something like that, given the number of times I've seen it used. Your reasons for saying it won't be used the same reasons it is rarely used now. The change to the save mechanics will have no effect on those other factors. And no, the saves are not corresponding. The low end of Fascinate DC corresponds to the high end of spell DC after around level 3 or 4. For the first 2-3 levels, you'll need a little bit of luck with the dice to get a good Fascinate off, but that's the way things are supposed to work. One bad roll can ruin your whole day.(Ask my PnP monk about his encounter with a Delayed Blast Fireball. Oh, wait, you can't. He's a pile of ashes now)

Eee gads...am I the only bard who sings the enemy to sleep???? sigh. There are some quests where doing so make the quest a LOT easier, a few in the desert come to mind... do we need to kill those undead??? or can we just lull them away and move on???...

szalkerous
03-31-2008, 03:44 PM
The coin lords were probably bribed, they are descended from pirates after all. Of course, even without bribes, likely Omaren is the only one that might care, or that might be phased, since she sees the Deneith as her own personal army.

As for the Twelve, they never cared about Stormreach to begin with.

Stormreach has abandoned +Sir, left him to rot in Shavarrath, and now Tolero is trying to do the same with Q!

SHEEENANIGANS!!! :p

szalkerous
03-31-2008, 03:47 PM
NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.



This is definitely nifty, and I thank you for the tribute. What ever came of doing a statue monument??

Tallyn
03-31-2008, 03:54 PM
This is definitely nifty, and I thank you for the tribute. What ever came of doing a statue monument??

I still think there is going to be a monument in game in Delera's graveyard, near the entrance to the Delera's quests. Kind of fitting, in my opinion.

Cinwulf
03-31-2008, 03:56 PM
NEW Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10&#37; health.
NEW Paladin Redemption II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.

Not that I don't like this line of enhancements, but why does Paladin redemption I cost 4 AP and II and III cost 2 AP each?

Are there other lines of enhancements that follow this cost pattern? I can't recall any?

edit: also where is Paladin Divine Sacrifice II and III?

The_Phenx
03-31-2008, 04:18 PM
Oh, sweet god thank you!

Do you have ANY idea how hard it's been to justify being a level 16 pure pally until today? Thank you, turbine, for giving me the reasons i KNEW you would to have my main be a crazy pick-weilding pure paladin. WELL worth it! jeez, all my friends are gonna be dying now that i will be able to smite with such crazy numbers...

Now if there was just a reason for having stayed pure 16th lvl fighter...;)

Zenako
03-31-2008, 04:28 PM
Not that I don't like this line of enhancements, but why does Paladin redemption I cost 4 AP and II and III cost 2 AP each?

Are there other lines of enhancements that follow this cost pattern? I can't recall any?

edit: also where is Paladin Divine Sacrifice II and III?

Probably because of the huge step function between being able to Raise the Dead vs not. The extra steps merely make it closer to Ressurrection and True Res from what I see and rightly deserve a lower AP cost. For those of us for whom the Divine Soverignty enhancment was appealing, getting a Raise Dead effect at potentially level 9 sounds quite cool to me, and that happens well before many of the clickies that have been mentioned are useable. Even casting Raise Dead via UMD is tricky at those levels.

dragnmoon
03-31-2008, 04:32 PM
do we need to kill those undead??? or can we just lull them away and move on???...

What Skip a Kill?..NEVER!!!!!! :p;):D

maddmatt70
03-31-2008, 04:58 PM
Not that I don't like this line of enhancements, but why does Paladin redemption I cost 4 AP and II and III cost 2 AP each?

Are there other lines of enhancements that follow this cost pattern? I can't recall any?

edit: also where is Paladin Divine Sacrifice II and III?

A level 9 ability to raise dead. Isn't that when clerics get the ability to caste the spell raise dead? I would say this is overpowered for that level, but like a bad dm Turbine has to please everybody and every class by continually giving them more goodies at the lower and middle levels; thus making the game easier and easier and thus creating a snooze fest. Oh how about the new rogue ability to instantly kill something before a wiz even gets FOD -before that a wiz or sorc has pk which at least gives mobs a fort and will save and oh by the way this has a higher dc then an arcane of the same level. I could go on about tempest and crit rage I, but well you can see where this is going.

Now it is becoming more and more about how fast can I get to the level cap so I can fight the end game quests and raid. I suppose it has been like that for awhile so why beat around the bush. I feel for the mobs in the dungeons out there. I suppose if they made the mobs in the dungeons tougher in the low and mid level quests the problem is solved except for the new players out there who we actually hope to hang around.

Turbine, rethink your strategy or give the people what they want more candy the question is what is best for the game?

Angelus_dead
03-31-2008, 05:02 PM
NEW Some spells which had been able to affect foes through doors and force fields now do a better job of checking line of sight.[/LIST]Skills, Feats, & Abilities[U]
Warning, the Tomb of the Tormented quest is buggy which makes it harder and slower than it really should be (the bug only happens maybe 50% of the time, and I don't know how to cause it). Using spells to affects foes through fields is a technique to work around this bug. If the workaround is removed, consider either fixing the quest-specific bugs (if possible), or adjusting the quest to be easier/faster overall.



NEW Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, and Dwarven Shield Mastery now only apply when blocking with a shield. Two weapon blocking has been updated to give +2DR when blocking, only when using two weapons.
If you check the database of what feats people take, you'll notice that nobody takes Two Weapon Defense or Two Weapon Blocking. You could also check PnP players and discovered Two Weapon Defense feats are considered a pointless waste in that game as well.

In DDO, the benefits of Two Weapon Defense and Two Weapon Blocking should be blended into one feat (called Two Weapon Defense), which might make it useful enough to take.



UPDATED Rogue Wrack Construct I
Prereq: Rogue level 3, Rogue Disable Device I, 7 Action Points Spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 1d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. (6 second cool-down.)
Warning, the Wrack Construct series is weak. See here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=141078) for details of ways to fix it.



NEW Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereq: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (6 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)
As-written Exalted Smite isn't really worth it. It might be decent if the level-dependent damage bonus improves as you train higher levels of Exalted Smite.


NEW Rogue Way of the Assassin II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Assassin I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 42 Action Points Spent
I suggest that the requirements for step 2 rogue enhancements be dropped from Rogue Level 12 to level 10 or maybe just level 8. The requirement for 42 AP spent will keep it for level 12 characters only.

The reason I suggest that is because the rogue class (unlike paladin and fighter) actually does have reasons to keep taking it past level 12: increased sneak attack and special abilities. There was not a problem in DDO where builds like rog16 or rog12/X4 were at a disadvantage compared to rog10/X4 or rog8/X8.

Any character with 8-10 levels of rogue is clearly a very rogue-ish build in terms of the focus, yet it's also clearly behind a pure rogue in terms of those important sneak attack dice. And of course by losing 8-10 levels of the other class, he doesn't have access to that classes's best features either.

What I'm saying is, is there any reason Rogue-love shouldn't include Multiclass-Rogue-Love too?



NEW Rogue Way of the Assassin II
Benefit: Grants an additional +4 bonus to Sneak Attack Damage, +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier.
Warning, the D&D convention for typical saving throw DCs is 10 + level/2 + ability modifier. There are good game-design reasons for that. That system is used for spell DCs, for example, because a level 14 sorc casting Finger of Death has DC = 10 + 7 + cha. It will be strange that the rogue's death attack scales up twice as fast as insta-kill spells from a mage. If not for the wizard's maximized intelligence bonus, the rogue would have a seriously higher DC.

Expected DCs for Rogue's death attack vs Wizard's heightened death spell
Level 13: Rogue 10+13+4 = 29, Wizard 10+7+10 = 27
Level 16: Rogue 10+16+6 = 32, Wizard 10+8+12 = 30
Level 20: Rogue 10+20+6 = 36, Wizard 10+9+13 = 32

Kinda funny progression, huh? And of course, if he wanted the rogue could have intelligence only -3 below the wizard. If Way of the Assassin were switched to the method of 10+Character Level/2+ability, then the rogue DCs would instead be (22, 24, 26) when the wizard has (27, 30, 32).

I assume the reason Way of the Assassin adds rogue level directly into the DC is because the PnP Assassin prestige class adds class level directly into the DC. But in that case it's adding the prestige class level, not your total character level, meaning that all your rogue levels prior to taking Assasin don't count for it. (And also, you can't take Assassin for more than 10 levels, so it stops counting after that too).


NEW Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I, Rogue Dexterity III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, increases your movement rate by 10%, and 2 extra uses per rest of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants a greater increase to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to knockdown effects and slippery surfaces.
I wonder if the speed benefit will stack with something like barb or monk class features.


NEW Rogue Way of the Mechanic II is still in development.
If you need help with that, let me know!


NEW Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I now grants increased attack speed with staves.
I appreciate the thought, but the stave benefit of Thief Acrobat makes the enhancement somewhat self-contradictory. The enhancement is themed on having higher dexterity, yet it gives a bonus to staves, which are a non-finesse weapon. That means this feature would basically only be useful for high strength rogues. I suggest one of the following fixes:
1. Way of Acrobat allows to apply dex to staff attacks, instead of strength.
2. Way of Acrobat allows you to apply (str+dex)/2 to staff attacks, instead of strength (if that would be better).
3. Create a new +1 enchantment for quarterstaves which makes them finessable.
4. Declare that quarterstaves made from unnaturally light materials like darkwood and mithral are finessable.


NEW Some areas of the game are a bit foggier because of the battles that have been occurring there.[/LIST]7.7
I wonder if this applies to The Shroud, as an attempt to reduce the lag some player report?

gpk
03-31-2008, 05:10 PM
1st of all great news on the shields getting more random attributes, does this mean ghost touch is completely gone now? Will ghost touch be replaced on existing shields?

I have to say though the Paladin related news other than Aura AP reduction is VERY disapointing.
IMO you are going in the totally wrong direction with the focus on Smites, Divine Sacrifices and Rasie abilities.

What's needed is CONSISTENT abilities that actually contribute in a meaningful way througout the quest, the easiest way to add that is via Spells and a divine feat or 2 (Divine Might).
Limited use per day and per time abilities like Smites and Sacrifices in the end contribute almost nothing to a quest. Raise dead is a nice OPTION, but shouldn't be the focus, these do not address any of the current problems facing the paladin class in any meaningful way.

While Divine Sacrifice is techincally a spell in pnp tht has some use, here it is a poorly implemented version that is not adjusted properly to DDO levels (way more mobs, way more mob HP etc). Oddly enough the other spells I've been begging don't really need any pnp->DDO adjustments.

The ultimiate irony, one little non pnp version of a spell would be better than all the "pally love" thus far; Ram's Might.

PLEASE tell us there is more to come; I know these additions may seem good on paper to but they will fall way short of the mark, they will not change the situations paladins have been in for a year.
To further delay rectifying the situation would be unacceptable.

EspyLacopa
03-31-2008, 05:23 PM
A level 9 ability to raise dead. Isn't that when clerics get the ability to caste the spell raise dead? I would say this is overpowered for that level, but like a bad dm Turbine has to please everybody and every class by continually giving them more goodies at the lower and middle levels; thus making the game easier and easier and thus creating a snooze fest. Oh how about the new rogue ability to instantly kill something before a wiz even gets FOD -before that a wiz or sorc has pk which at least gives mobs a fort and will save and oh by the way this has a higher dc then an arcane of the same level. I could go on about tempest and crit rage I, but well you can see where this is going.

Now it is becoming more and more about how fast can I get to the level cap so I can fight the end game quests and raid. I suppose it has been like that for awhile so why beat around the bush. I feel for the mobs in the dungeons out there. I suppose if they made the mobs in the dungeons tougher in the low and mid level quests the problem is solved except for the new players out there who we actually hope to hang around.

Turbine, rethink your strategy or give the people what they want more candy the question is what is best for the game?
What they could to to fiddle with the Death Attack. . .is make it 10 + Rogue Level / 2 + Int Mod, instead of straight + Rogue Level. While the original Death Attack of the Assassin prestige class simply uses the Assassin Levels, it must be kept in mind that the character cannot have more than 10 Assassin Levels pre-epic.

Bronko
03-31-2008, 05:46 PM
Weekly Development Activities

This week's edition of the WDA is extra-meaty-tasty-crispy, because there will be no WDA next week. Enjoy!
The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in Module 7.

General
New Enhancements

UPDATED Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Prereq: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)

So-o-o-o close gang...

But Divine Sacrifice still needs to exists on a "pay X get Y" over a PERIOD OF TIME (much like Manyshot). If this is not corrected then all of the wonderful work you have done to develop it will be lost. Any issues in lag/latency/etc. will simply make it unusable unless you do so. I love the concept and I am thrilled by the fact that you are showing us so much Pally love, but the mechanic of what you have drafted simply will not work properly for the average player, especially if the cost is paid BEFORE the effect with the likely possibility of a ZERO outcome caused by latency factors beyond anyone's control.

In order to keep it balanced but still usable I would suggest something like this:


Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your attacks for the next 10 seconds. These attacks deal an aditional 5d6 Good damage to [omit evil] opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp. (2 minute cooldown).

I am of course open to suggestion/amendment on this, but the fact if the effect MUST exist over time and not be restricted to one strike. Increase the cost, increase the cooldown, shorten the length of the effect, or do whatever else you feel you need to do to keep it balanced, but please make the effect happen over time. And since it is a 'pay for effect' ability with the damaged typed as Good, why shouldn't it work on ANY non-good aligned monster? Or is that already the intent and the ability description is just not 100% clear on this?


NEW Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereq: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (6 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)

Absolutely wonderful. This is very balanced and allows 'tanking' paladins to excel where they should the most: against evil foes. It also scales nicely to give 'true' or even primarily paladin-level builds something to shoot for.


NEW Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health.

This is, without question, the most pleasantly unexpected addition I have seen. Again, absolutely wonderful.


NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.

All hail the King. A beautiful tribute to the Master himself.



Sirroco will now cause blindness only on critical hits, as per the description.


Alrighty, then why don't we just all sell our Sirrocos off to the vendors? This extremely rare drop was hard enough to use after the last nerf, but now it will be all but useless. I agree that the effect was only ever supposed to proc on a critical, but since you have already fixed when the trip (and now the blindness) effect happens you should now go back and fix that paltry DC of 14 to make the damn things usable.



NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.


Thank you for addressing that annoying text alert.

This is without a doubt the most promising WDA I have seen and I haven't even commented on the rest of the fixes or the additions to rogue enhancements. :)

Keep up the good work, but why are you mysteriously leaving us in the dark about the lack of a WDA for next week? :confused:

Quanefel
03-31-2008, 05:54 PM
NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.


All good stuff I see here but that above....Me and my OCD to things like this thank you. Thank you VERY much! :D

gpk
03-31-2008, 06:39 PM
Absolutely wonderful. This is very balanced and allows 'tanking' paladins to excel where they should the most: against evil foes. It also scales nicely to give 'true' or even primarily paladin-level builds something to shoot for.


At most you have 12 Smites per rest, how is it helpful?

10 AP for 8 extra smites (+4 base at 16) +6 more AP for Exalted Smite 3.
Let's assume mob doesn't suddenly twitch out of the way and every Smite lands , 25&#37; of those are confirmed critical hits (16-20 x5 on a khopesh due to +1 range +2 multi).

So 9 normal hits, 3 crits at 5 X multiplier. Ya that 5x crit will put up some nice numbers, but SO WHAT? You get 12 swings per rest.

This is one of the top problems with many paladins, they see a big fat crit number on screen and are so dazzled that they totally forget that they contribute nearly zero average damage throughout a quest.

Smite Evils contribute almsot nothing overrall and are usually consided at best secondary ability by most saavy players.
Unless Smite uses per rest is drastically increased (6-10x increase) or even cooldown timer decreased, they should not be the focus of any development time and certainly do not deserve any ooohs and ahhs.

If all the Smite Evils enhancements for 16 Action Points can't even match the usefulness of a little Sacred +4 STR bonus given by the curiously still missing Righteous Fury spell for 20 SP, then it is a waste of any development effort and cannot be considered "pally love".

Tallyn
03-31-2008, 07:03 PM
If all the Smite Evils enhancements for 16 Action Points can't even match the usefulness of a little Sacred +4 STR bonus given by the missing Righteous Fury spell for 20 SP, then it is a waste of any development effort.

Obsessed with Righteous Fury? :D

gpk
03-31-2008, 07:08 PM
Obsessed with Righteous Fury? :D

Just a tad ;)

Seriously though I bring it up a lot because:

-It's very easy to add
-Is pnp compliant (gasp) and still useful over time.
-Addresses lack of good high level spells, a reason to take more pally levels.
-Is true to the pally spirit, gaining power from divine sources.
-doesn't suck
-wouldn't be subject to a mysterious nerf request from WOTC
-Even in conjunction with Silverbeard and Righteous Aura and even Divine Might, it isn't overpowered like BBN Crit Rage 2 or even as powerful as Ranger Tempest and Ram's Might.

Turial
03-31-2008, 07:11 PM
Would be neat if the paladin extra smite gave a % chance for a free smite to go off. Along the lines of 1%, 3%, 5% or 1%, 5%, 10% though the second set maybe a little to powerful. Then again maybe not.

Wizzly_Bear
03-31-2008, 07:33 PM
Weekly Development Activities

This week's edition of the WDA is extra-meaty-tasty-crispy, because there will be no WDA next week. Enjoy!
The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in Module 7.



NEW Paladin Redemption I

Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption II

Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)

Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.why are pallies being granted the ability to raise dead?

Saaluta
03-31-2008, 07:37 PM
[U][B]Weekly Development Activities

1. NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.

2. NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.


as for part one, I will be running Delera's again just to get this item on all my characers. And for part 2, now those of us with OCD can finally check off all those empty boxes :)

Thanks, Saal :)

captain1z
03-31-2008, 08:44 PM
Lotta good stuff coming for palis ......... leaves me wondering if all those crit enhancements stack...... the wording leaves me a bit puzzled.


The instant death assassin attack was written alost word for word from an idea I put in the suggestion box on how to make the enhancement better. Although in my version there was no save ...... it was a percentage rolled on every attack, equal to your total rogue levels, while the enhancement was active. sounds good with the fortitude save as it stands now....... finally an assassin can kill stuff.

Paladins get a big raise.

- and I dont see why not, in a game when you can die 100 times a day, why shouldnt paladins get the ability to raise people. Having another class that can reliably raise is a good thing.

In PNP death is a big deal, in DDO..... not so much.


Its a good thing for everyone...... why?

- It saves up to 4 rez scrolls per paladin in every quest that someone dies and puts some money back in the clerics/bards/ insert UMD builds pockets.

- Every "self sufficient" group with a dragonmarked halfling, ranger splash wanding fighters, spell casting rangers and bards can now take a pali along, if they want someone who can raise, but dont want to foot the bill for scrolls or chance the scroll failure.

- Parties can now stop waiting for clerics like hitch hikers waiting for yellow cabs in the desert and instead can spread the clerical duties throughout the entire group................ and do it cheaply..... without spending tons of plat



From an RP perspective, as palis are closer to divine than any other class, save the cleric; it is not impossible that one who devotes himself to the cause of raising the dead and spends his time in training/prayer/meditations , why shouldnt he be rewarded for his efforts if his faith is Lawful and his intentions good.

SteeleTrueheart
03-31-2008, 09:37 PM
NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100&#37; health.


The problem I see with this:
Paladin and Barbarian are together and Barbarian is taking a lot of damage.... Paladin thinks to himself should I heal him with LoH for 200-300hp so he can keep going or should I wait till he dies and use that LoH to raise him and heal him 600hp? Hmm tough choice. Even then it is tough cos my LoH are precious and I dont want people to expect me to be a pseudo cleric.


Just a tad ;)

Seriously though I bring it up a lot because:

-It's very easy to add
-Is pnp compliant (gasp) and still useful over time.
-Addresses lack of good high level spells, a reason to take more pally levels.
-Is true to the pally spirit, gaining power from divine sources.
-doesn't suck
-wouldn't be subject to a mysterious nerf request from WOTC
-Even in conjunction with Silverbeard and Righteous Aura and even Divine Might, it isn't overpowered like BBN Crit Rage 2 or even as powerful as Ranger Tempest and Ram's Might.

Pretty Please with Shugar on top? Righteous Fury (even without Silverbeard and Divine Might) Palies would have been happy if you had just put in this 1 spell. This one spell and the enhancement changes you have done = NIIICE!

Solmage
03-31-2008, 10:48 PM
PLEASE do this for Half-plate as well! PLEASE

Honestly, rather than better options for half-plate, I'd like to see the useless armors being marginalized making their chance to drop almost non-existent. (Or if someone can come up with a really creative way to make them compete favorably with the 'real' armors, that'd be nice too)

But right now, you have to just sigh and shake your head when you pull a mithril half-plate, or banded mail, or some other gimp armor that could have been an uber set if only it had been a chain shirt, breastplate or platemail.

gpk
04-01-2008, 12:05 AM
Pretty Please with Shugar on top? Righteous Fury (even without Silverbeard and Divine Might) Palies would have been happy if you had just put in this 1 spell. This one spell and the enhancement changes you have done = NIIICE!

Truthfully I can't think of one reason why there shouldn't be Silverbeard, Righteous Fury and Divine Might (at +cha mod duration), the stuff announced to date is at best fluff and meaningless overrall.

Compare that to Crit Rage 2 (oh right we're not supposed to), a Temptest Ranger w/ Ram's might or the proposed Assasin 2 Insta-kill effect (mind boggling), or a rog w/ Assasin 2 and Radiance2 weap.

Honestly if no quality spells or divine feats are to be added just do away with the smite per day limit altogether, it still wouldn't be as powerful (or overpowered) as the stuff listed above.

I really just don't understand whats going on with the devs vis-a-vis the pally class; the fact that there is no WDA next week kinda implies there is no more info to come either.

Geonis
04-01-2008, 12:34 AM
UPDATED Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.

This only makes up for the nerf made a year ago.





UPDATED Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Prereq: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)

Great, so we clarified that this ability will waste HP and SP every time you miss (which will be often), made it a little harder to get (minimum level 5 instead of 4), and basically wasted tons of Dev time in a worthless and insulting enhancement. This needs to be dropped from the game period, since you guys are not willing to actually make it useful.





NEW Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereq: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (6 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)




NEW Paladin Exalted Smite II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 10 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite I, Paladin Extra Smite III, 34 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier.




NEW Paladin Exalted Smite III:
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier.

Again, is this some sort of stealth way to stop (intelligent) people playing Paladins?

I can do the math quite quickly, this is a lowering of a Paladin's DPS in disguise. With the prerequisite of coming to a complete stop before activating a Smite, it will definitely lower overall DPS, while flashing big shiny numbers for those to stupid to do the math. This is even with the 4th tier enhancement.







NEW Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10&#37; health.


NEW Paladin Redemption II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.


NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.

Why are you guys even thinking of adding the raise capability to Pallys?

No one asked for anything like this.

You are basically dodging the point made by the community, that Paladins are worthless combatants in the current end game. How does adding a made up raise ability help in combat?



I would say, given current announcements, that MOD 7 is quickly becoming the "Rogue Love/End of Pally" MOD.

Highly disappointing.


How about you guys add in the spells Pallies are missing, change Smite to a cooldown timer rather than times/day, the Smite enhancements could lower the cooldown, and get rid of Divine Sacrifice (no one uses it in PnP, why the hell would we use it here?).

Venar
04-01-2008, 12:38 AM
Dont sweat it, its not like paladins have extra AP to put into the pre-reqs anyways.

Hakushi
04-01-2008, 01:29 AM
NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.

About time, awesome change, very close if not the same as I proposed. This made my day, thank you so much devs for this great change. :) :D Now Raika will be able to visit all these areas, boycott is over.

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 01:45 AM
Why are you guys even thinking of adding the raise capability to Pallys?

No one asked for anything like this.
Some people somewhat asked, indirectly.

You see, there was a lot of complaint that there's little reason to stay paladin past level 11 or 12. Some paladin-defenders claimed that paladins help the party because they have better healing abilities than other melees.

But of course that is false, a pal12/rog2/X2 mix is a much better healer than a pal16, because his UMD ranks allow him to do things like Raise Dead scrolls. So maybe the devs decided to address that by giving paladins a way to raise a few teammates at low level without splashing rogue.

JD2134
04-01-2008, 02:49 AM
WHat about the horns that drop in the Shroud raid that are useless except to try and sell and hope someone buys them??????????

Geonis
04-01-2008, 02:49 AM
Some people somewhat asked, indirectly.

You see, there was a lot of complaint that there's little reason to stay paladin past level 11 or 12. Some paladin-defenders claimed that paladins help the party because they have better healing abilities than other melees.

But of course that is false, a pal12/rog2/X2 mix is a much better healer than a pal16, because his UMD ranks allow him to do things like Raise Dead scrolls. So maybe the devs decided to address that by giving paladins a way to raise a few teammates at low level without splashing rogue.

I understand what they're trying to do, but 4AP enhancements aren't real useful when they can be replaced by an item or some inventive character planning. (Edit) Even when my Pally has 8 spare APs sitting around. Also, the most important level of this is available at 9. Again, no reason to go above level 11. (Unless your point is to build a gimp character.)

Looks like it's time to delete my Pally and roll a Halfling Rogue. :mad:

Zack77
04-01-2008, 03:33 AM
Exalted smite and Paladin Redemption FTW!! FINALLY, my PURE paladin has hope!

gpk
04-01-2008, 04:20 AM
Exalted smite and Paladin Redemption FTW!! FINALLY, my PURE paladin has hope!

Really? Explain how those are good.
Start with Exalted Smite.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-01-2008, 06:26 AM
The problem I see with this:
Paladin and Barbarian are together and Barbarian is taking a lot of damage.... Paladin thinks to himself should I heal him with LoH for 200-300hp so he can keep going or should I wait till he dies and use that LoH to raise him and heal him 600hp? Hmm tough choice. Even then it is tough cos my LoH are precious and I dont want people to expect me to be a pseudo cleric.

That would be a silly pali. Clerics could make the same argument.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-01-2008, 06:27 AM
WHat about the horns that drop in the Shroud raid that are useless except to try and sell and hope someone buys them??????????

They have already said they will be useful in a future mod.

Oh, and if you think they have no value and you are still selling them to ppl who don't know better instead of vendoring them, whats that say about you?

Elsiah
04-01-2008, 07:04 AM
Now if there was just a reason for having stayed pure 16th lvl fighter...;)

yeah, i often wish about being able to hit harder, do more damage...but i like my role, rezzing folks and healing them (oddly...fighters much of the time:D) and generally being the last defense against a party wipe.

Mhykke
04-01-2008, 07:25 AM
I'm not a fan of having any kind of pally "love" tied to smite evil, or other clicky attacks. It's just too few per encounter to rely on.

Looking like the devs have turned paladin "love" into paladin "don't call us, we'll call you."




yeah, i often wish about being able to hit harder, do more damage...but i like my role, rezzing folks and healing them (oddly...fighters much of the time:D) and generally being the last defense against a party wipe.

If a paladin's "role" is rezzing and healing, then paladins will always be considered 2nd class. Clerics are much better, MUCH better at this "role", than paladins. Why would anyone take a paladin in their group if that's the "role" they were looking to fill? Why not just a 2nd cleric? A paladin is a holy warrior. Not a holy "i'll stand around and toss some spot heals around and hope you guys kill stuff, b/c if I'm left alone w/ any mob, i'm dead" stiff.

And as to being the last line of defense against a party wipe, pretty much any class can be the equivalent. Any other class can just go into a corner, hit sneak, and do nothing during a fight, and they'll draw just slightly less aggro than a paladin. Usually paladins aren't the 1st to die b/c they're not considered the biggest threat by a mob.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 07:36 AM
Can you guys make Paladin Devotion affect the amount of healing from a Lay on Hands?

Or maybe even make it do double duty for healing spells and healing wands.

I've been seeing some complaints about it as a pre-req for the raise enhancements to the effect of "Most paladins don't use cure spells" which seems fair. Adding one or both of the above effects would probably make a Paladin's Devotion enhancements useful.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 07:41 AM
Can you guys make Paladin Devotion affect the amount of healing from a Lay on Hands?

Or maybe even make it do double duty for healing spells and healing wands.

I've been seeing some complaints about it as a pre-req for the raise enhancements to the effect of "Most paladins don't use cure spells" which seems fair. Adding one or both of the above effects would probably make a Paladin's Devotion enhancements useful.

Wait so clerics devotion cannot affect wands or scrolls but you want pallies to? Are you kidding me?

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 07:44 AM
Wait so clerics devotion cannot affect wands or scrolls but you want pallies to? Are you kidding me?

Yes and no. Respectively.

(And for the record, Clerics don't have "Devotion" they have "Life Magic" which affects positive and negative energy spells.)

Yaga_Nub
04-01-2008, 07:46 AM
Can you guys make Paladin Devotion affect the amount of healing from a Lay on Hands?

Or maybe even make it do double duty for healing spells and healing wands.

I've been seeing some complaints about it as a pre-req for the raise enhancements to the effect of "Most paladins don't use cure spells" which seems fair. Adding one or both of the above effects would probably make a Paladin's Devotion enhancements useful.

I like that suggestion. Make it so!

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 07:47 AM
Yes and no. Respectively.

(And for the record, Clerics don't have "Devotion" they have "Life Magic" which affects positive and negative energy spells.)

OOOO it affects 5 whole negative spells, get out of here. Why that is almost as effective as the enhancement for Clerics Smiting spells.

:rolleyes:

Vhlad
04-01-2008, 07:51 AM
Dear Developers,

I don't like seeing new special and strong enhancements that require high levels of a pure class. PrCs in pnp are feat, skill, BAB, etc based. There's nothing that requires super high levels of a pure class, except for perhaps some specific epic level feats, so I'm not sure why you're doing this.

Critical rage II requires barb lvl 14. I'd put the limit there, or maybe 16 max.

Preferably I'd like to see ALL PrC related enhancements be converted to non class based requirements, as they are in pnp. In fact, many of the PrCs in pnp require split classing to meet their requirements. The precident to remain, for example, a pure fighter in pnp is not there. Fighter is more of a multiclassing/PrC focused class.

Other classes gain abilities that are progressive (more sneak attack dice, more spells, etc).

Anyway, if you come out with new special enhancements that require fighter lvl 17+, you're going to make a lot of people who splashed unhappy. Unless you offer some kind of respec. Because not everyone is not going to reroll and spend months grinding replacement raid loot, bound crafted items, etc, just to get back where we left off. Many players prefer to play the optimal build. If they're faced with playing something that is "gimp" because they splashed, or rerolling, they may choose neither at this point, and just go on to a different MMO.

I roll the best build available based on the data available. I don't make mistakes. If you change the rules then I'll pour over tables and graphs and make a new build, to a certain point.

When you changed the enhancements, added 32 pt, and made dwarf uber, I rerolled my fighter. (tonnes of raid loot and +2 tomes gone)
When you changed stunning blow, trip, and evasion, I rerolled my fighter again. (tonnes of raid loot and +2 tomes gone)
When you added critical rage, I stopped playing my fighter and rolled a sorc.
When you added tempest, I thought maybe fighter will get something eventually and I started grinding for raid loot on my fighter again.
If you come out with a super enhancement that requires fighter lvl 19+, and if you don't offer a respec or a way to transfer bound loot to a replacement toon, then I'm not going to reroll another fighter and lose tonnes of raid loot, +2-3 tomes, and crafted loot. I'll either just play my sorc or move on to a game that doesnt keep yanking the carpet from under me.

Elsiah
04-01-2008, 07:53 AM
I'm not a fan of having any kind of pally "love" tied to smite evil, or other clicky attacks. It's just too few per encounter to rely on.

Looking like the devs have turned paladin "love" into paladin "don't call us, we'll call you."





If a paladin's "role" is rezzing and healing, then paladins will always be considered 2nd class. Clerics are much better, MUCH better at this "role", than paladins. Why would anyone take a paladin in their group if that's the "role" they were looking to fill? Why not just a 2nd cleric? A paladin is a holy warrior. Not a holy "i'll stand around and toss some spot heals around and hope you guys kill stuff, b/c if I'm left alone w/ any mob, i'm dead" stiff.

And as to being the last line of defense against a party wipe, pretty much any class can be the equivalent. Any other class can just go into a corner, hit sneak, and do nothing during a fight, and they'll draw just slightly less aggro than a paladin. Usually paladins aren't the 1st to die b/c they're not considered the biggest threat by a mob.

i didn't say it was the role of all paladins to do so, but i've been the last man standing many times, and saved my group from a party wipe. As for being left alone with a mob, i may not be able to do the damage that a fighter or barb can do, but i get right in the thick as either of them. That i get hit far less often and heal them instead of DPSing while the cleric heals the rogue and caster, whose spells and sneak attacks have drawn the majority of the aggro only says that i'm a team player. A paladin is a hard character to play at times, because as a class they can go many ways. If i wanted to do DPS like a barb, i would have built one. If i wanted only to heal, i would have had my main be a cleric. I didn't. I wanted a toon that i could do a bit of everything with, and bards just aren't my cup of tea. My main solos the vale at least once a day, and currently has more than 4k in kills for shavarath alone, so i'm not too worried about my ability to stay up in a fight.

As it is, i rarely use my smite. Usually i use it when something is stunned or otherwise in a situation that allows for an auto-crit. In these scenarios i use a bursting heavy pick, which does pretty respectable numbers, about the same with a one-hander and shield as a crit by a barb with a greataxe. However, if the crit range extensions stack with improved crit, than my pali will be critting on a 17-20 at level 18 with a x6 multiplier. I'll use it when the opportunity presents itself.

Well, i've learned my lesson about expressing happiness about anything on the forums. Too many people willing to insult the intelligence of those few of us that truly enjoy the gameplay and become excited about what they percieve to be improvements (i for one will gladly take what's been given, i like to be able to res if needed; this will make it easier) and my excitement, for the record, is more for the fact that turbine is making an effort (though many of you will say a misguided or bad one) than for the actual improvements. I see it as a sign that paladins and classes in general will get more improvements/enhancements/spells in the future. I'd personally like to see a few of the spells from the forge of war put in...

Anyway, i'm sure to be further insulted for enjoying myself, so i'll leave the WDA alone from now on, other than to read whats new. It's obvious to me that posting here is simply a way to get flamed, and i have better things to do.

cheers.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 07:57 AM
OOOO it affects 5 whole negative spells, get out of here. Why that is almost as effective as the enhancement for Clerics Smiting spells.

:rolleyes:

If by 5 you mean 9.

As of now. Lord help us if they add a (noncanonical) "Mass Harm" spell.

But really, is your cleric seriously having trouble? Cause my cleric is pretty much one of the most powerful characters I know. Your nonstop "Clerics need help" complaints are getting kind of tired, and ringing more than a little hollow.

Mhykke
04-01-2008, 08:01 AM
Well, i've learned my lesson about expressing happiness about anything on the forums. Too many people willing to insult the intelligence of those few of us that truly enjoy the gameplay and become excited about what they percieve to be improvements (i for one will gladly take what's been given, i like to be able to res if needed; this will make it easier) and my excitement, for the record, is more for the fact that turbine is making an effort (though many of you will say a misguided or bad one) than for the actual improvements.



Where was your intelligence insulted or where were you flamed? I'm sorry if someone disagreed w/ your point of view, but don't expect everyone to agree w/ you just b/c you like something. And just b/c Turbine is making an effort shouldn't preclude people from pointing out if the effort is a misguided one, and to point out how maybe other things would work better.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 08:04 AM
Where was your intelligence insulted or where were you flamed?

Oh, well that's easy. I can answer that.


Again, is this some sort of stealth way to stop (intelligent) people playing Paladins?

Mhykke
04-01-2008, 08:05 AM
Oh, well that's easy. I can answer that.

Sorry MT, thought he was referring to my response to his post.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 08:11 AM
If by 5 you mean 9.

As of now. Lord help us if they add a (noncanonical) "Mass Harm" spell.

But really, is your cleric seriously having trouble? Cause my cleric is pretty much one of the most powerful characters I know. Your nonstop "Clerics need help" complaints are getting kind of tired, and ringing more than a little hollow.

OK 9 spells.... most of them worthless, but Hey.

My clerics are not having trouble. I just have chosen to retire my clerics in favor of a new rogue, except for of course reaver timers. No expectations of him to have stacks of heal scrolls or mnemonic pots, I can play him how I want.

Clerics are basically gimped in this game. No Domains, No Improved Metamagics (save empower healing /vomit), the expectations are for clerics to fill one slot and one slot only, healing. It is tired, expecially after 2 years.

The funny thing in all of this is Paladins are stronger than clerics overall, yet Pallies are getting serious upgrades and not a peep about doing anything to improve clerics in months.

I mean you are hearing pallies whine about how they want 3 new spells (even in this thread) and that is equal to what, almost half of the spells clerics got for level 8.

Seriously at level 16, I had to say to myself, which of these craptastic spells am I going to put in my level 8 slot... to this day, I have no idea which one I picked. All the power in the world there. :rolleyes:

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 08:19 AM
Clerics are basically gimped in this game.

The funny thing in all of this is Paladins are stronger than clerics overall...

And this is why no one takes your complaints seriously.

I mean, yeah, I'd love to see domains, and have more spells too. But not cause clerics need them or are gimped without them.

And I recognize that there are other classes that really do need help, and that that's probably why the devs are working on other stuff before they put in more "cleric love."

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 08:25 AM
And this is why no one takes your complaints seriously.

I mean, yeah, I'd love to see domains, and have more spells too. But not cause clerics need them or are gimped without them.

And I recognize that there are other classes that really do need help, and that that's probably why the devs are working on other stuff before they put in more "cleric love."

Sure Clerics dont need more level 8 spells, I mean we have mass deathward and Cure Mass Critical (without a devotion item for it but lets not go there yet) so we can at least keep the melees alive, in theory, as long as our blue bar holds out.

If you do not htink that a pally can get more kills in the shroud then a cleric, well........ yeah.

Now if you wanted to say are clerics as powerful as say rangers or barbarians, I could agree with you. But then again I would say a cleric doesnt achieve any of their levels.

Rogues dont need any additional help, people just need to learn how to play a rogue and not a trap monkey. I run with a rogue (a guildie) that has better saves and more kills than most fighters (and probably out dps'es them also).

The only reason clerics are even accepted into most groups is to heal for the most part. If they wanted melee ability they would bring a rogue or barbarian, if they wanted casting ability they would bring a sorc, if they wanted buffs they would bring a bard.

fefnir3284
04-01-2008, 08:34 AM
wow, just wow. well I got to say I dont like the bard will save on fascinate, but I rarely used that anyway, it was more of an "Oh $$$$" button anyway. but the pally LoH rezzing is cool (might rethink my pally9/rogue10/wiz1 build.... well maybe not :p), and I will MOST definitely be running delaras with all my guys til they ALL have the 'voice of the master.' plus YAY i can now go back with my level 14s to do cerulan hills, searing gorge and all that jazz ^.^

Yaga_Nub
04-01-2008, 08:37 AM
The only reason clerics are even accepted into most groups is to heal for the most part. If they wanted melee ability they would bring a rogue or barbarian, if they wanted casting ability they would bring a sorc, if they wanted buffs they would bring a bard.

Cow, I guess I don't understand what you want from clerics. Are they supposed to be virtual gods?

Yes if I want melee I'm going to be a full BAB class instead of a cleric. I know that clerics can cast spells to give them full BAB but that can be dispelled.

Yes if I want pure casting then I'm going to invite a sorc because they have more damaging spells and twice as much mana. I think that's pretty smart don't you?

If I want buffs I'm going to be a bard, a wizard or sorc, and a cleric to make sure I get every buff possible.

So a cleric is reduced to healing. Not really. They CAN heal yes, in fact they can heal better than any other class but it's not all they can do. I look at clerics sort of like I do my MC builds except I didn't have to MC to get the variety that I do with my cleric. The ONLY reason why I don't like playing my cleric more is the fact that at level 14 I have 1200 mana with enhancements and items. That just seems so wrong but then again I'm used to my sorc that has 2000 at level 16. So I always try to be a second or third cleric so I can blow my mana on max empowered extended blade barriers and stuff like that.

So tell me what role do you see clerics filling besides healer that isn't better suited to another class?

Vhlad
04-01-2008, 08:43 AM
A well made cleric is uber.

Quicken, empowered/max blade barrier, destruction.

Clerics can solo running with devils with blade barrier. They can solo the reaver too.

You can focus on healing and be a super uber healer. You can focus on CC. And you can focus on DPS.

A cleric with a bunch of mana pots (or no mana pots but a short quest or a quest that lets you train huge groups of mobs or a quest with lots of shrines) can do more DPS than a sorc.

Many clerics may perhaps not know how to play the class well or how to space blade barriers, etc. But if you take someone who focuses on playing the class and doing it well, then there's nothing weak about it.

Zenako
04-01-2008, 09:00 AM
Cow, I guess I don't understand what you want from clerics. Are they supposed to be virtual gods?

Yes if I want melee I'm going to be a full BAB class instead of a cleric. I know that clerics can cast spells to give them full BAB but that can be dispelled.

Yes if I want pure casting then I'm going to invite a sorc because they have more damaging spells and twice as much mana. I think that's pretty smart don't you?

If I want buffs I'm going to be a bard, a wizard or sorc, and a cleric to make sure I get every buff possible.

So a cleric is reduced to healing. Not really. They CAN heal yes, in fact they can heal better than any other class but it's not all they can do. I look at clerics sort of like I do my MC builds except I didn't have to MC to get the variety that I do with my cleric. The ONLY reason why I don't like playing my cleric more is the fact that at level 14 I have 1200 mana with enhancements and items. That just seems so wrong but then again I'm used to my sorc that has 2000 at level 16. So I always try to be a second or third cleric so I can blow my mana on max empowered extended blade barriers and stuff like that.

So tell me what role do you see clerics filling besides healer that isn't better suited to another class?

Actually it almost sounds like he needs to run with different people, that the ones he is running quests with expect him to do healing and only healing and in that regard he is feeling less empowered than he used to. While other classes improved in some measureable way, sometimes with large step functions, clerics only increased in healing effectiveness incrementally.

However, I will agree with the rest of the above, my Cleric can run into quests and not have to worry about "can I handle it"? A pure melee needs to bring the right weapons to the fight or they are next to useless in many quests these days. Not so with a cleric/wizard.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:02 AM
Cow, I guess I don't understand what you want from clerics. Are they supposed to be virtual gods?

Yes if I want melee I'm going to be a full BAB class instead of a cleric. I know that clerics can cast spells to give them full BAB but that can be dispelled.

Yes if I want pure casting then I'm going to invite a sorc because they have more damaging spells and twice as much mana. I think that's pretty smart don't you?

If I want buffs I'm going to be a bard, a wizard or sorc, and a cleric to make sure I get every buff possible.

So a cleric is reduced to healing. Not really. They CAN heal yes, in fact they can heal better than any other class but it's not all they can do. I look at clerics sort of like I do my MC builds except I didn't have to MC to get the variety that I do with my cleric. The ONLY reason why I don't like playing my cleric more is the fact that at level 14 I have 1200 mana with enhancements and items. That just seems so wrong but then again I'm used to my sorc that has 2000 at level 16. So I always try to be a second or third cleric so I can blow my mana on max empowered extended blade barriers and stuff like that.

So tell me what role do you see clerics filling besides healer that isn't better suited to another class?


To answer your question, none, and that is the problem. The worst part of all of this is when monks come into the game, and then druids there will be NO reason to play a cleric. Why would I want to play a cleric, when my Druid, can shapechange, cast heal, and cast wall of fire. I dont need an Arcane Lore Item to make every one of my offensive spells crit in the game as a druid, fire lore will do nicely.

Everybody is so looking at right now, pigeon holed into this one second of time, to concentrating on the vale to realize what is coming in the future, but that hasnt brought about any problems in this game, well other than melee, bab, AC and every other combat issue.

Soon it will hit clerics also. I hope you all invested in UMD, cause somebody will need those heal scrolls.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 09:05 AM
Now if you wanted to say are clerics as powerful as say rangers or barbarians, I could agree with you. But then again I would say a cleric doesnt achieve any of their levels.

Clerics are vying with Sorcerers for the most powerful class in the game at present.

Mhykke
04-01-2008, 09:07 AM
The funny thing in all of this is Paladins are stronger than clerics overall, yet Pallies are getting serious upgrades and not a peep about doing anything to improve clerics in months.



Wow, I mean, wow.

I'm speechless.

I have to sit here a minute and take this in, b/c that's out there. Paladins more powerful? We're talking about DDO here.

I think I have a pretty good paladin. I invite you to my server as an observer, and I'll jump on my paladin, and we'll get a decent cleric to join us. Who do you think will dominate any quest we go in?

It's not even close. The power gap is astronomical b/w the 2. I'm amazed that anyone can sit here and try to argue otherwise. There are few things that are certain, but this is one of them. Paladins don't approach a cleric's power.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:10 AM
Clerics are vying with Sorcerers for the most powerful class in the game at present.

With such obvious success because of the heavy prevalence of clerics on all the servers. I mean every day I log in and see all these clerics standing around with nothing to do waiting for enough melee classes to fill groups.

I hear on the forums all the time about melee classes (especially paladins) having to go anonymous so they dont get spam telled to join the groups in the LFM's, those pesky clerics.

Seriously though..... no. Versatile, maybe, powerful no.

llevenbaxx
04-01-2008, 09:10 AM
snip

Well, i've learned my lesson about expressing happiness about anything on the forums. Too many people willing to insult the intelligence of those few of us that truly enjoy the gameplay and become excited about what they percieve to be improvements (i for one will gladly take what's been given, i like to be able to res if needed; this will make it easier) and my excitement, for the record, is more for the fact that turbine is making an effort (though many of you will say a misguided or bad one) than for the actual improvements. I see it as a sign that paladins and classes in general will get more improvements/enhancements/spells in the future. I'd personally like to see a few of the spells from the forge of war put in...

snip

I hope you are right here and they continue to look at the paly as more than a back-up healer/rezzer. While Im one who thinks they missed the mark, at least they were looking at the right target. Will wait to try these enhancements out and see how they play but it appears not much OA will change, when real change was what was needed. A limited use mechanic like smite is always going to be seriously second class in an all combat game like this. Will still be a nightmare getting in a shroud group at any rate.

I hope the "paly love" is not at an end... it would be a shame if this is all Turbine thinks palys needed. Lets call this the paly foreplay mod for now...:)

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:12 AM
Wow, I mean, wow.

I'm speechless.

I have to sit here a minute and take this in, b/c that's out there. Paladins more powerful? We're talking about DDO here.

I think I have a pretty good paladin. I invite you to my server as an observer, and I'll jump on my paladin, and we'll get a decent cleric to join us. Who do you think will dominate any quest we go in?

It's not even close. The power gap is astronomical b/w the 2. I'm amazed that anyone can sit here and try to argue otherwise. There are few things that are certain, but this is one of them. Paladins don't approach a cleric's power.


Sure they do. Paladins are extreemly strong, best saves in game, immunities galore, LOH, smites, Pallies are very strong, just more defensive oriented. Pallies have their flaws (primarily agro generation) but they are strong.

Mhykke
04-01-2008, 09:24 AM
Sure they do. Paladins are extreemly strong, best saves in game, immunities galore, LOH, smites, Pallies are very strong, just more defensive oriented. Pallies have their flaws (primarily agro generation) but they are strong.


It's not as though clerics' saves are all that bad. Sure, reflex isn't great, but the fact they have protection spells help any elemental damage coming their way on a failed reflex save, coupled w/ the fact they can instakill a caster before he actually casts those spells, meh, not a huge factor.

LOH? LOH???? That's your argument? A 4 times (at max) ability per rest for about 200 or so hit points a pop, vs. clerics ability to self heal? I mean, really?

Smites? Yeah, I'd much rather smite something 12 times per rest (max) for a couple hundred a hit (if I'm lucky and crit) than walk it through a blade barrier for 300+ hit points a hit on a non crit.

You do realize that clerics solo quests much, much more than paladins right? Is that b/c the paladin is "so strong"?

Your logic is simply backward. On the one hand you say that there's sooo many groups looking for clerics, but then you say that's b/c they're so weak. And I guess the flipside to that is nobody looks for paladins b/c they're sooo strong right? Come on.

Honestly, how am I even sitting here discussing this point. There is no argument. Clerics are in a different stratosphere than paladins. You cannot seriously make that argument.


With such obvious success because of the heavy prevalence of clerics on all the servers. I mean every day I log in and see all these clerics standing around with nothing to do waiting for enough melee classes to fill groups.

I hear on the forums all the time about melee classes (especially paladins) having to go anonymous so they dont get spam telled to join the groups in the LFM's, those pesky clerics.

Seriously though..... no. Versatile, maybe, powerful no.

Again, the # of people playing a class does not equal its power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's hard to play a cleric and have fun. It's not an easy class. That's why a lot of people don't play it. Not because of the power! Do you think that if somehow, magically, the devs made it so clerics didn't have to heal anyone else, that people wouldn't be playing clerics? That people would think they're too weak to play? OF COURSE NOT!!!! There'd be a huge number of people blade barriering, crowd controlling, meleeing, and instakilling their way through dungeons on clerics. It's HARD to do all that AND heal people. So people don't do it!

It's flawed logic to think that # of people playing a class equals a class's power.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 09:27 AM
With such obvious success because of the heavy prevalence of clerics on all the servers. I mean every day I log in and see all these clerics standing around with nothing to do waiting for enough melee classes to fill groups.

You've said this before, multiple times, and I'm not really sure how you think it supports your argument.

A) There are other reasons that people either don't like playing a cleric (often because they fail to understand how powerful they become).

B) There are other reasons that you don't see clerics waiting around (usually because clerics are anonymous because people blind invite them, which has nothing to do with how strong the class is and/or they only group with guildies because of the widespread inability to understand that a cleric can do way more than just heal).

C) There are other reasons clerics don't wait around. My cleric doesn't usually wait for other people to do stuff. If there isn't a group I want to join to do something, I'm off soloing stuff.


I hear on the forums all the time about melee classes (especially paladins) having to go anonymous so they dont get spam telled to join the groups in the LFM's, those pesky clerics.

Again, what does this have to do with anything?

People blind invite clerics because they think they "need" one. Because they think that clerics should be healing them and they don't do well without one. In fact, one of the cleric's main advantages in DDO is that they never have to worry about that. They don't have to devote resources to UMD to be able to heal scroll themselves, or use a highly limited resource like LoH. They have immense access to self-healing that's only matched by Warforged wizards and sorcerers.

But really, what does that fact that people want clerics in their groups have to do with whether or not clerics are a powerful class.

If anything, it should point towards clerics being powerful, not the other way round.


Versatile, maybe, powerful no.

Immense DPS output: Blade Barrier
Insta-killing: Banishment, Dismissal, Destruction
Crowd Control: Cometfall (with damage included!), Greater Command, Hold Person
Defense: Plenty of buffs, in fact the only ones that are lacking are DR buffs (a la stoneskin). Blur would be nice too, but can be replicated (if you care to) with Obscuring Mist.
Healing: Pretty obvious

What other "power" do you want? Clerics are versatile and powerful.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:34 AM
You've said this before, multiple times, and I'm not really sure how you think it supports your argument.

A) There are other reasons that people either don't like playing a cleric (often because they fail to understand how powerful they become).

B) There are other reasons that you don't see clerics waiting around (usually because clerics are anonymous because people blind invite them, which has nothing to do with how strong the class is and/or they only group with guildies because of the widespread inability to understand that a cleric can do way more than just heal).

C) There are other reasons clerics don't wait around. My cleric doesn't usually wait for other people to do stuff. If there isn't a group I want to join to do something, I'm off soloing stuff.



Again, what does this have to do with anything?

People blind invite clerics because they think they "need" one. Because they think that clerics should be healing them and they don't do well without one. In fact, one of the cleric's main advantages in DDO is that they never have to worry about that. They don't have to devote resources to UMD to be able to heal scroll themselves, or use a highly limited resource like LoH. They have immense access to self-healing that's only matched by Warforged wizards and sorcerers.

But really, what does that fact that people want clerics in their groups have to do with whether or not clerics are a powerful class.

If anything, it should point towards clerics being powerful, not the other way round.



Immense DPS output: Blade Barrier
Insta-killing: Banishment, Dismissal, Destruction
Crowd Control: Cometfall (with damage included!), Greater Command, Hold Person
Defense: Plenty of buffs, in fact the only ones that are lacking are DR buffs (a la stoneskin). Blur would be nice too, but can be replicated (if you care to) with Obscuring Mist.
Healing: Pretty obvious

What other "power" do you want? Clerics are versatile and powerful.

Domains, more devotion items (7 & 8), more spells to choose from, arcane lore to not only be on 3 raid items and 1 other item, improved metamagics for clerics (other than improved empower healing), and if no domains for clerics because I think that would honestly be alot of work for the devs (although it should have been done pre release) Then some decent enhancement lines (cleric only) that rival in power to what rangers got, rogues are getting, etc etc, and if somebody tells me a 10 minute timer heal is a great enhancement then I am going to vomit.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 09:40 AM
Look.

There are obviously ways to make clerics more powerful. No one's denying that.

But they're already powerful. They're already one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:44 AM
Look.

There are obviously ways to make clerics more powerful. No one's denying that.

But they're already powerful. They're already one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Yet one of the least played, which needs to change.

Even if that point were to be ignored, There is no way a cleric will keep up with what druids will be. It wont happen. MT you know the spell lists, give me one reason why anybody would play a cleric over a druid other than healing. I doubt you can, and that will be an issue.

Impaqt
04-01-2008, 09:46 AM
I like to think I'm on the side that clerics do indeed need a boost, but as many have pointed out, they are pretty solid.

I'd like to see Blade Barrier go back to where it was... Hopefully with the new Barrier Recognition, the Devs can fix Blade barrier so it stacks again....

I'd like to see some more PrC Enhancments. The ones we have do what? Give us a Martial Weapon Proficincy Clicky and some not so exciting spell like castings for tier 2..... Get rid of the 10 minute timer on those.. Or at least let it reset when we shrine(And when We Log Out!).

I'd Like to see less reliance on Heal Scrolls and Mnemonic potions. It is way out of hand. If I want to do anything but heal, I must use scrolls. I'm buying 100 every couple days... More if I do some Shroud Runs.....

Would Ilike to see Domains? Of Course.... Am I gimped without them? Not by a long shot.

You've made your name as a Cleric Cow..... and you've done it all.. Your Burned out on it.... That doesnt mean the class is broken..... Maybe playing another character for a while is what you need..... You Probobly need to Roll a Pure paly so you can see just how bad off they are compared to us Clerics.... I wouldtn dare go into any l10+ Quest Solo n a Paly.... But On My cleric, I've soloed most of the Vale..... Palays cant touch us.

As a final note

There NOTHING the devs can do that will change Player perception of what clerics "Should Be" and what they as "Designed to do". We will ALWAYS be the "Healer". Thats something you need to come to grips with or you'll never have fun playing your clerics ever again.

Gunga
04-01-2008, 09:49 AM
Now if we could see some love for clerics......

Nonsense.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:49 AM
I like to think I'm on the side that clerics do indeed need a boost, but as many have pointed out, they are pretty solid.

I'd like to see Blade Barrier go back to where it was... Hopefully with the new Barrier Recognition, the Devs can fix Blade barrier so it stacks again....

I'd like to see some more PrC Enhancments. The ones we have do what? Give us a Martial Weapon Proficincy Clicky and some not so exciting spell like castings for tier 2..... Get rid of the 10 minute timer on those.. Or at least let it reset when we shrine(And when We Log Out!).

I'd Like to see less reliance on Heal Scrolls and Mnemonic potions. It is way out of hand. If I want to do anything but heal, I must use scrolls. I'm buying 100 every couple days... More if I do some Shroud Runs.....

Would Ilike to see Domains? Of Course.... Am I gimped without them? Not by a long shot.

You've made your name as a Cleric Cow..... and you've done it all.. Your Burned out on it.... That doesnt mean the class is broken..... Maybe playing another character for a while is what you need..... You Probobly need to Roll a Pure paly so you can see just how bad off they are compared to us Clerics.... I wouldtn dare go into any l10+ Quest Solo n a Paly.... But On My cleric, I've soloed most of the Vale..... Palays cant touch us.

As a final note

There NOTHING the devs can do that will change Player perception of what clerics "Should Be" and what they as "Designed to do". We will ALWAYS be the "Healer". Thats something you need to come to grips with or you'll never have fun playing your clerics ever again.

I just created a halfling rogue to see what all the buzz is about, other than reaver timers, i think as of today, my clerics are semi retired.

Laith
04-01-2008, 09:50 AM
Even if that point were to be ignored, There is no way a cleric will keep up with what druids will be. It wont happen.
magic items don't work when you use wild shape.
in the world of min-maxing, and powerful magic items: this has serious implications.

it means your animal forms probably won't have physical stats of other classes.
It also means that wild shaping means giving up your +6 wis, magi, immunity, fortification, weapon, armor, shield, and other items. leet-sauce, eh?
D&D wild shape isn't quite as good as the WoW variant. ;)

~~~

it all, of course, depends on how a druids abilities are implemented.

in NWN2, for example, druids are considered seriously underpowered.
in PnP, they are considered one of the most brokenly-powerful class around.
the major difference is the wild shapes and spell lists that are allowed.
another dealbreaker for druids is that only one summon is allowed at a time in NWN2 (sound familiar).

generally speaking, druids are poorer healers and don't have as many combat buffs as clerics.
their damage & CC magic is roughly equivalent to a cleric.
they probably won't have animal companions, but of course clerics don't really have turning or domains either. ;)

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:55 AM
I wish clerics recast timer on Unyielding Soverignity was comparable to rogues chance to deal a death blow with their way of the assassin 2 enhancement.

Gunga
04-01-2008, 09:56 AM
Yet one of the least played, which needs to change.

Even if that point were to be ignored, There is no way a cleric will keep up with what druids will be. It wont happen. MT you know the spell lists, give me one reason why anybody would play a cleric over a druid other than healing. I doubt you can, and that will be an issue.

Clerics are primarily healers. EVERYTHING else is secondary. If you're a great player, you can create a monster of a cleric that can melee, do great offensive damage and keep the party up. But Clerics are designed to heal, no sense in arguing that point. Clerics currently have enhancements that give them more power than any other class. Both of my tricked out sorcs are tweaked to the max for damage and cannot consistently dish out 1200 point damage like my cleric can dish out 1200 point heals. I'm all for progress as long as it doesn't take away from the game.

Turial
04-01-2008, 09:56 AM
Can you guys make Paladin Devotion affect the amount of healing from a Lay on Hands?

Or maybe even make it do double duty for healing spells and healing wands.

I've been seeing some complaints about it as a pre-req for the raise enhancements to the effect of "Most paladins don't use cure spells" which seems fair. Adding one or both of the above effects would probably make a Paladin's Devotion enhancements useful.

Now would you support the boosting of devotion lines to do this for the 2/3 classes that get them (bards get healing and sonic boosted so they dont technically have devotion) or would this be a paladin only change?

Personally I think the more healing a group can eek out from the secondary "battle medics" the more well rounded they will be and more able to diversify out of pigeon holes.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 09:56 AM
magic items don't work when you use wild shape.
in the world of min-maxing, and powerful magic items: this has serious implications.


in NWN2, for example, druids are considered seriously underpowered.
in PnP, they are considered one of the most brokenly-powerful class around.
the major difference is the wild shapes and spell lists that are allowed.

it all, of course, depends on how a druids abilities are implemented.

generally speaking, druids are poorer healers and don't have as many combat buffs as clerics.
their damage & CC magic is roughly equivalent to a cleric.
they probably won't have animal companions, but of course clerics don't really have turning or domains either. ;)

Hey Vanash when he was quasi specd for turning didnt have too bad of a time with it in catacombs on normal at level 14. I tried it.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 09:58 AM
magic items don't work when you use wild shape.

And, depending on whether they implement Natural Spell or not (and not implementing it could be a valid DM Decision; I've heard of D&D DMs who don't allow this feat), you may not be able to cast while Wild Shaped either. Even if it is implemented, you're down a feat.

A fix to either BB or Wall of Fire, so that both use the same mechanic (either "crossing the plane is required" or "standing in the wall/barrier" counts) would also leave BB being the significantly more powerful spell.

Depending on how they implement Reincarnation (or, in fact, whether they implement the spell or not), Druids may not be the best guys to have around when you die.

Several important spells are lower levels. Mass Death Ward as an 8th instead of a 9th. Heal as a 6th instead of a 7th level spell. Destruction as a 7th level spell vs. Finger of Death as an 8th level spell.

Cure Spells >> Summon Nature's Ally.

Mass Heal.

Gunga
04-01-2008, 09:58 AM
I like to think I'm on the side that clerics do indeed need a boost, but as many have pointed out, they are pretty solid.

I'd like to see Blade Barrier go back to where it was... Hopefully with the new Barrier Recognition, the Devs can fix Blade barrier so it stacks again....

I'd like to see some more PrC Enhancments. The ones we have do what? Give us a Martial Weapon Proficincy Clicky and some not so exciting spell like castings for tier 2..... Get rid of the 10 minute timer on those.. Or at least let it reset when we shrine(And when We Log Out!).

I'd Like to see less reliance on Heal Scrolls and Mnemonic potions. It is way out of hand. If I want to do anything but heal, I must use scrolls. I'm buying 100 every couple days... More if I do some Shroud Runs.....

Would Ilike to see Domains? Of Course.... Am I gimped without them? Not by a long shot.

You've made your name as a Cleric Cow..... and you've done it all.. Your Burned out on it.... That doesnt mean the class is broken..... Maybe playing another character for a while is what you need..... You Probobly need to Roll a Pure paly so you can see just how bad off they are compared to us Clerics.... I wouldtn dare go into any l10+ Quest Solo n a Paly.... But On My cleric, I've soloed most of the Vale..... Palays cant touch us.

As a final note

There NOTHING the devs can do that will change Player perception of what clerics "Should Be" and what they as "Designed to do". We will ALWAYS be the "Healer". Thats something you need to come to grips with or you'll never have fun playing your clerics ever again.

/signed

Laith
04-01-2008, 09:59 AM
Hey Vanash when he was quasi specd for turning didnt have too bad of a time with it in catacombs on normal at level 14. I tried it.even not specced at lvl16 (with reaver gloves and 20 cha) i can turn one giant skele at a time on normal in reaver pre-raid and necropolis pre-raid.

no, i didn't kill them: they feared instead. "Destroying" isn't "turning", it's all together different.

Boulderun
04-01-2008, 10:05 AM
Look, let's just add in Bolt of Glory so that we can all then agree clerics are massively overpowered along with everyone else (except fighters and paladins :p ).

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 10:07 AM
Look, let's just add in Bolt of Glory so that we can all then agree clerics are massively overpowered along with everyone else (except fighters and paladins :p ).

A 15d6 ray spell would be overpowered for clerics?

Boulderun
04-01-2008, 10:11 AM
Uh... 15d12 against evil outsiders and undead. Augmentable by life magic enhancements, potency, arcane lore, maximize and empower.

Cowdenicus
04-01-2008, 10:18 AM
Uh... 15d12 against evil outsiders and undead. Augmentable by life magic enhancements, potency, arcane lore, maximize and empower.

That sounds like just the ticket for clerics :D

Yvonne_Blacksword
04-01-2008, 11:40 AM
Weekly Development Activities

The Catacombs
NEW Oozes and slimes have disappeared but, other vermin may lurk in the shadows.
Wait...somoone other than me is gonna want to do catacombs now...unless the vermin is....rusties!


NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.He he....Cerulean Hills here I come!
lol.

Cinwulf
04-01-2008, 12:02 PM
I think you are safe, rusties are aberations :)

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 12:03 PM
Wait...somoone other than me is gonna want to do catacombs now...unless the vermin is....rusties!

Rust Monsters aren't vermin. They're aberrations.

I suspect the catacombs will soon be infested with Rats.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-01-2008, 12:22 PM
Clerics are primarily healers. EVERYTHING else is secondary. If you're a great player, you can create a monster of a cleric that can melee, do great offensive damage and keep the party up. But Clerics are designed to heal, no sense in arguing that point..

Sorry, you are simply wrong. As a long time D&D player clerics do more than healing. In fact in D&D clerics spend less time healing than they do fighting.

Impaqt
04-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Rust Monsters aren't vermin. They're aberrations.

I suspect the catacombs will soon be infested with Rats.

I wonder what the Reasoning was behing this change..... Seems to me withteh Abundance of Muckbanes and Everbright weapons now, the Oozes in the Catacombs werent that big of a deal. Seems to me an easier adjustment for this quest if people were buring through too many weapons would be for the Friar to give you an "Everbright Club of the Holy Flame" when you got the quest from him... Like Delaras....

Laith
04-01-2008, 12:28 PM
I wonder what the Reasoning was behing this change.....
because they have rats in the game now, and we don't fight them until lvl10+? :)

previous to this change, id guess the ratio of rats in an area was inversly proportional to the number of kobolds...

dragons1ayer74
04-01-2008, 12:33 PM
Weekly Development Activities

The effect of Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Rogue Way of the Assassin I active abilities, and Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I "show time" now lasts 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.
Paladin Bulwark of Good and Resistance of Good costs reduced to 1 point per level
Paladin Focus of Good now grants +3, +6, or +9 to Concentration checks.
Paladin Courage of Good now grants +2, +4, or +6 to Fear saves.[/LIST]
UPDATED Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.
UPDATED Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Prereq: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereq: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (6 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 10 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite I, Paladin Extra Smite III, 34 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier.
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite III:
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier.
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 18 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite III, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 64 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +2 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. (Yes, we realize you can't get this yet, but it will wait patiently for you to hit level 18.)


So this is our paladin love, I don't know why they tied it so much to Smite, even if smite never missed and had no cool down this still seems a bit weak. It not like PnP where you have a few bad guys to smite, you have hordes and hordes. I can't see me taking this line as it currently is suggested (and my pure Paladin tires to be an offensive paladin).



NEW Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10&#37; health.
NEW Paladin Redemption II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.

I might take something like this (espicaly if the smite line stays as proposed), but shouldn't it at least be one (or even two) levels higher for each level?




NEW Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.

Am I the only one that dosnt see this as a good thing? Don't get me wrong I love the idea of continuing to get reduced xp (and think it should be expanded to regular quests too) but this "Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced." is not good. So now you have one guy at 5th level in WW he is the only one that gets slayer every one else 4th and below in his party gets nothing?




NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.

Almost forgot...wow what a nice gift and way to ensure every character in the game pays homage to Gary.

oronisi
04-01-2008, 12:34 PM
Sorry, you are simply wrong. As a long time D&D player clerics do more than healing. In fact in D&D clerics spend less time healing than they do fighting.

Gotta agree. In PnP, my cleric(s) would spend more time shouting about their beliefs and swinging their mace than healing. In fact, I don't recall healing during combat at all unless someone was on death's door. And only then, 1 or 2 cures. My time was better spent trying to incapacitate the enemy than trying to heal the bleeder.

Laith
04-01-2008, 12:38 PM
So now you have one guy at 5th level in WW he is the only one that gets slayer every one else 4th and below in his party gets nothing?well, it is an improvement for some that hurts noone...

the system will probably be changed down the road though, when we forget that at one point having a single character above level would mean no xp for anyone.

i'd say it'd be fine to give half xp to the "appropriately leveled", but others would just complain saying that means they can't go back later and get full xp.

if you give them full xp, well... that, my friend, is powerleveling.

dragons1ayer74
04-01-2008, 12:42 PM
umm... currently EVERYONE would get nothing.

at the end of the day, no one is hurt from this change. that's why it's a good thing.

The little guy gets hurt, even if the little guy does all the work, the little guy could even power level the big guy. I would rather see EVERYONE get nothing rather than little guy get nothing, if the little guy is out of level range fine but in dungoens or areas that are made for the little guys level to have them get nothing feel wrong to me.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Am I the only one that dosnt see this as a good thing? Don't get me wrong I love the idea of continuing to get reduced xp (and think it should be expanded to regular quests too) but this "Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced." is not good. So now you have one guy at 5th level in WW he is the only one that gets slayer every one else 4th and below in his party gets nothing?

Presumably, it's to prevent level-appropriate people from getting the reduced XP. Which seems like a decent compromise.

Mostly you're going to have people above the level of the slayers soloing the area for little to no XP or groups of level appropriate people doing the area as normal.

A group of level appropriate people aren't going to take an over-leveled person with them.

Laith
04-01-2008, 12:49 PM
The little guy gets hurt, even if the little guy does all the work, the little guy could even power level the big guy.what? by giving him half-xp from enemies that are deemed "below him"?

either keep your group in the level range, or stay above it.

and yes, as MT said: this seems primarily aimed at keeping adventure areas open to solo by people above the normal level.

EspyLacopa
04-01-2008, 01:00 PM
Rust Monsters aren't vermin. They're aberrations.

I suspect the catacombs will soon be infested with Rats.
Rats aren't vermin either, they're Animals.

I suspect it'll be lots of little spiders.

MysticTheurge
04-01-2008, 01:12 PM
Rats aren't vermin either, they're Animals.

Tell that to the Favored Enemy: Vermin icon. ;)

I'm still leaning towards Rats, for the reason Laith pointed out above.

LeLoric
04-01-2008, 02:27 PM
Tell that to the Favored Enemy: Vermin icon. ;)

I'm still leaning towards Rats, for the reason Laith pointed out above.

They arent revisiting old quests are they?

Ironwind
04-01-2008, 02:34 PM
NEW Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I, Rogue Dexterity III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, increases your movement rate by 10%, and 2 extra uses per rest of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants a greater increase to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to knockdown effects and slippery surfaces.

I'm not sure if the DEVs actually read replies to this thread.

I got excited about trying out a Thief-Acrobat; but, I'm curious. Is the staff a weapon that will usable with the Weapon Finesse feat?

If not, then this option becomes much less attractive.

Eladrin
04-01-2008, 02:47 PM
Rats aren't vermin either, they're Animals.
Lowercase 'v' vermin in the Catacombs. Everyone loves rats 'n' bats. (At least, more than slimes and jellies.)


I got excited about trying out a Thief-Acrobat; but, I'm curious. Is the staff a weapon that will usable with the Weapon Finesse feat?
That's an interesting suggestion I've seen in a couple threads already.


this seems primarily aimed at keeping adventure areas open to solo by people above the normal level.
That's the case. Places like Searing Heights are still potentially enjoyable when you're over the level limit. We also don't want to either deny the lower level characters their full share of XP, nor produce scenarios where a capped character will kill all but one creature in a slayer objective then leave the party.

Impaqt
04-01-2008, 03:00 PM
Lowercase 'v' vermin in the Catacombs. Everyone loves rats 'n' bats. (At least, more than slimes and jellies.)


That's an interesting suggestion I've seen in a couple threads already.


That's the case. Places like Searing Heights are still potentially enjoyable when you're over the level limit. We also don't want to either deny the lower level characters their full share of XP, nor produce scenarios where a capped character will kill all but one creature in a slayer objective then leave the party.

Um, Eladrin, I think You've been Misinformed..... No one likes bats... Certainly not more than Slimes and oozes. The only reason they are tolerable in the vale is because we have spells like Firewall and Blade barrier to take careof them. Meleeing them sucks.

Arent Quarterstaffs Finnessable as a DOuble weapon in PnP?

EspyLacopa
04-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Um, Eladrin, I think You've been Misinformed..... No one likes bats... Certainly not more than Slimes and oozes. The only reason they are tolerable in the vale is because we have spells like Firewall and Blade barrier to take careof them. Meleeing them sucks.

Arent Quarterstaffs Finnessable as a DOuble weapon in PnP?
No. While it can be used for two-weapon fighting, and you take penalties as though wielding a one handed weapon and a light weapon, the Staff itself is still a Two-Handed Weapon.

Impaqt
04-01-2008, 03:04 PM
No. While it can be used for two-weapon fighting, and you take penalties as though wielding a one handed weapon and a light weapon, the Staff itself is still a Two-Handed Weapon.

That seems Odd to me.... Especially since a quarterstaff is rated for 4lbs (Same weight as the Finessable "Light Mace"
\
Regardless, I dont see a major issue with making it finessable... It would certainly increase their popularity inthe game and make them somewhat useful.

TreknaQudane
04-01-2008, 03:04 PM
Um, Eladrin, I think You've been Misinformed..... No one likes bats... Certainly not more than Slimes and oozes. The only reason they are tolerable in the vale is because we have spells like Firewall and Blade barrier to take careof them. Meleeing them sucks.

Arent Quarterstaffs Finnessable as a DOuble weapon in PnP?

No they aren't



Quarterstaff
A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

The quarterstaff is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding a quarterstaff special options.


The only thing "light" about a staff is that one end counts as a light weapon for to hit penalties for it to work with the Two-Weapon Fighting feats

TreknaQudane
04-01-2008, 03:06 PM
That seems Odd to me.... Especially since a quarterstaff is rated for 4lbs (Same weight as the Finessable "Light Mace"
\
Regardless, I dont see a major issue with making it finessable... It would certainly increase their popularity inthe game and make them somewhat useful.

Finesse weapons are not finesse because of their weight, but because of how they are balanced. Were it just on weight rogues would use Mithral Khopeshes :D

It's a stick... It might be shod with metal on one end.. but a long piece of wood only nothing fancy, nothing balanced

Dungnmaster001
04-01-2008, 03:09 PM
So this is our paladin love, I don't know why they tied it so much to Smite, even if smite never missed and had no cool down this still seems a bit weak. It not like PnP where you have a few bad guys to smite, you have hordes and hordes. I can't see me taking this line as it currently is suggested (and my pure Paladin tires to be an offensive paladin).


In PnP there are (IMO) 3 iconic paladin abilities: Lay on Hands, Smite evil, and a mount. They are focusing on the smite evil mechanic because it's an iconic ability for paladins. And smite evil isn't intended for use on those hordes and hordes of creatures. They are intended (again just my opinion) for boss fights. I can definitely see my next paladin taking these for just that reason.

Impaqt
04-01-2008, 03:13 PM
Finesse weapons are not finesse because of their weight, but because of how they are balanced. Were it just on weight rogues would use Mithral Khopeshes :D

It's a stick... It might be shod with metal on one end.. but a long piece of wood only nothing fancy, nothing balanced

meth... I know your a rules stickler, but come on.. are you telling me a Stick cant be balanced? Where would the imbalance be if Quarterstaves were made Finessable?

AS it sits, the Staff Boost in WotA is Completely accademic..... No one in their right mind uses staffs.

Dungnmaster001
04-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Finesse weapons are not finesse because of their weight, but because of how they are balanced. Were it just on weight rogues would use Mithral Khopeshes :D

It's a stick... It might be shod with metal on one end.. but a long piece of wood only nothing fancy, nothing balanced

I agree with the comment about weight having nothing to do with Finesse, however I disagree that a stave shouldn't be. Have you ever seen a martial artist fight with one? Pure grace and finesse. It requires training to use a staff like that though (I believe some of the Oriental Adventures material has feats or prestige classes that allow monks to use weapon finesse with staves...not sure though)

Perhaps make that an additional bonus for the enhancement, making staves finesseable...or make a separate feat for it but I dislike that option since most builds are already pressed for feats.

EspyLacopa
04-01-2008, 03:20 PM
I agree with the comment about weight having nothing to do with Finesse, however I disagree that a stave shouldn't be. Have you ever seen a martial artist fight with one? Pure grace and finesse. It requires training to use a staff like that though (I believe some of the Oriental Adventures material has feats or prestige classes that allow monks to use weapon finesse with staves...not sure though)

Perhaps make that an additional bonus for the enhancement, making staves finesseable...or make a separate feat for it but I dislike that option since most builds are already pressed for feats.

Ok. Find a light blunt weapon that is also made of wood in a D&D source. Clubs are not light, and deal 1d6 damage. Closest I can find are Nunchaku, and those are Exotic.

Perhaps make Quarterstaves finessable if you take an exotic proficiency in them.

Impaqt
04-01-2008, 03:33 PM
Ok. Find a light blunt weapon that is also made of wood in a D&D source. Clubs are not light, and deal 1d6 damage. Closest I can find are Nunchaku, and those are Exotic.

Perhaps make Quarterstaves finessable if you take an exotic proficiency in them.

So it would be OK to make them Finesseable if you take a Make believe Feat? That Doesnt make sense.....


Hows about this...

Take your Nice quarterstaff, Pop it into a Eldarich Device with say a level appropriet number of Air Elemental Shards, and Out pops a Finesseable Quartersaff. (Ala "of FInesse" Weaponry)

Ironwind
04-01-2008, 04:17 PM
I agree with the comment about weight having nothing to do with Finesse, however I disagree that a stave shouldn't be. Have you ever seen a martial artist fight with one? Pure grace and finesse. It requires training to use a staff like that though (I believe some of the Oriental Adventures material has feats or prestige classes that allow monks to use weapon finesse with staves...not sure though)

Perhaps make that an additional bonus for the enhancement, making staves finesseable...or make a separate feat for it but I dislike that option since most builds are already pressed for feats.

I am a martial artist in real life.

I'm tall but I'm definitely not a muscle man. My DEX > STR.
I have been trained in the staff, among other weapons.
It is not a STR based weapon in the hands of a trained martial artist.

Sure, if I grabbed the staff with both hands and swung it over my head like a baseball bat then it might fall under Two Handed Fighting. But a staff is much too long for those sorts of shenanigans.

Gornin
04-01-2008, 04:21 PM
I am a martial artist in real life.

I'm tall but I'm definitely not a muscle man. My DEX > STR.
I have been trained in the staff, among other weapons.
It is not a STR based weapon in the hands of a trained martial artist.

Sure, if I grabbed the staff with both hands and swung it over my head like a baseball bat then it might fall under Two Handed Fighting. But a staff is much too long for those sorts of shenanigans.

QFT

Nightseer
04-01-2008, 04:24 PM
NEW A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list.
"Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.


Any chance on more details about this item?
Does the XP reward apply to every dungeon as long as you've got the item?
What type of item is it, trinket, or something else? (Really hope it's a trinket =) )

Great touch as a memorial item. =)

Riggs
04-01-2008, 04:40 PM
The thing about staves is people tend to group all of the varities into one category. The D&D staff is pretty much based on the old middle ages type of staff, long, heavy, and while requiring some skill, mostly a bashing weapon.

A 'martial art' staff, like a Jo staff, would be lighter and more balanced, and shorter (usually you use a staff that comes up to a certain point on your shoulder). A 6 foot staff that is not balanced is a very different from a 4-5 foot balanced staff in use and 'finessibility'. Comparing the weights in the phb is not really a good indication of use, as the weapons tend to be a generic 'one size fits all' mix.

It would be far simpler most likely to make the quarterstaff a finesse weapon than to add a new graphic and staff type, and probably wouldnt be out of line as the staff itself is certainly not an overpowered weapon if it was made finessable. Also would make monks using a staff a lot easier than if it stays a str based weapon.

DNDJESS
04-01-2008, 04:48 PM
I am a martial artist in real life.

I'm tall but I'm definitely not a muscle man. My DEX > STR.
I have been trained in the staff, among other weapons.
It is not a STR based weapon in the hands of a trained martial artist.

Sure, if I grabbed the staff with both hands and swung it over my head like a baseball bat then it might fall under Two Handed Fighting. But a staff is much too long for those sorts of shenanigans.

Best response I've seen so far (even though I'm a bit confused whether you're for or against the idea of making it finessable). One thing I have to bring up though is that you say it's not a STR based weapon. Unfortunately, in DDO, ALL weapons are STR weapons, since there is no damage modifier for DEX.

Personally I've said many times that I would love to see staffs finessable. Hell, I would also like to see two-hand slashing finesse weapons, and 2-hand piercing weapons of both types added to the game. There would be NOTHING unbalancing about adding any of these, and it would allow for some new builds, which is always a major +.


Finesse weapons are not finesse because of their weight, but because of how they are balanced. Were it just on weight rogues would use Mithral Khopeshes :D

Isn't that kinda how a Sunblade works?

Cinwulf
04-01-2008, 04:49 PM
My monk is probably going to be dex based so I'd love a finessable staff :)

Beherit_Baphomar
04-01-2008, 04:52 PM
Lowercase 'v' vermin in the Catacombs. Everyone loves rats 'n' bats. (At least, more than slimes and jellies.)

You have feedback from people telling you "Hey El! I freakin LOVE those bats man! The way they mob me and I cant seem
to hit them! LOVE THEM BRO! Put more in!! Oh and while we're at it...the rats that can catch my 30% striding, took-the-
full-line-of-Barbarian-sprintboost Barbarian...CLASSIC! We need more mobs that move at the speed of light please!"??

Interesting...anyone want to admit to telling El these things? No? Because you'll be shunned by your entire server admitting it.

oronisi
04-01-2008, 05:14 PM
You have feedback from people telling you "Hey El! I freakin LOVE those bats man! The way they mob me and I cant seem
to hit them! LOVE THEM BRO! Put more in!! Oh and while we're at it...the rats that can catch my 30% striding, took-the-
full-line-of-Barbarian-sprintboost Barbarian...CLASSIC! We need more mobs that move at the speed of light please!"??

Interesting...anyone want to admit to telling El these things? No? Because you'll be shunned by your entire server admitting it.

That was me. But in my own defense, it was an early April Fool's joke.

gpk
04-01-2008, 05:23 PM
In PnP there are (IMO) 3 iconic paladin abilities: Lay on Hands, Smite evil, and a mount. They are focusing on the smite evil mechanic because it's an iconic ability for paladins. And smite evil isn't intended for use on those hordes and hordes of creatures. They are intended (again just my opinion) for boss fights. I can definitely see my next paladin taking these for just that reason.

I disagree. Smite Evil maybe be iconic to you but its a secondary ability at best especially due to it's extremely low usage. DND 4 may be changing that but this ain't DND4.
A paladin's combat prowess and supplemented defense comes from divine sources -> good SPELLS and Divine Combat Feats; 2 areas sorely lacking in DDO for the pally.

Someone curiously and wrongly chose to focus on Rezzing LOHs and Smite Evils as if they were needed, wanted, not a waste of time. Smite Evils for boss fights? Irrelevant. Too few, too weak, bosses too strong.

Anyone excited about the fancy smite evils, divine sacrifice or rezzing LOHs needs to seriously start playing their pally more, or the game in general.

Whoever was responsible for "pally love" in mod7 completely missed the mark, the "love" given is more an insult to injury at this point than anything else; it may sound harsh but it's the truth.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-01-2008, 05:30 PM
I disagree. Smite Evil maybe be iconic to you but its a secondary ability at best especially due to it's extremely low usage. DND 4 may be changing that but this ain't DND4.
A paladin's combat prowess and supplemented defense comes from divine sources ->SPELLS and Divine Combat Feats; 2 areas sorely lacking in DDO for the pally.

Someone curiously and wrongly chose to focus on Rezzing LOHs and Smite Evils as if they were needed, wanted, not a waste of time. Smite Evils for boss fights? Irrelevant. Too few, too weak, bosses too strong.

Anyone excited about the fancy smite evils, divine sacrifice or rezzing LOHs needs to seriously start playing their pally more, or the game in general.

Whoever was responsible for "pally love" in mod7 completely missed the mark, the "love" given is more an insult to injury at this point than anything else; it may sound harsh but it's the truth.

Nice post.

Vormaerin
04-01-2008, 05:31 PM
The medieval quarterstaff was not, in fact, generally wielded like a modern jo staff or martial arts weapon. It was often used more like a two handed sword or polearm was. That's the weapon that 'quarterstaff' models in D&D. That's why there are separate entries for jo sticks and similar weapons in the Oriental Adventures rules.

I don't care if they make it finessable or not... would be an alright replacement for its p&p ability to be a double weapon. It is currently a waste of space in DDO, unfortunately.

Vormaerin
04-01-2008, 05:46 PM
Oh, and I got the impression that Eladrin was being a bit snide with the comment about 'everyone loves bats and rats'. That's the whole point of the "at least more than slimes and oozes", which are tied for least favorite thing in DDO in the lastest feedback thread (air elementals being the other one).

So I think they are intending to have nuisance creatures in the catacombs, but decided that bats and rats are better than slimes and oozes for that role.

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 07:56 PM
The medieval quarterstaff was not, in fact, generally wielded like a modern jo staff or martial arts weapon. It was often used more like a two handed sword or polearm was.
Read a medieval author like George Silver in his Paradoxes of Defense book, section 26.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html


Yet again for the short staff: the short staff has the vantage against the battle axe, black bill, or halberd: the short staff has the advantage, by reason of the nimbleness and length: he will strike and thrust freely, and in better and swifter time than can the battle axe, black bill, or halberd, and by reason of his judgement, distance and time, fight safe. And this resolve upon, the short staff is the best weapon against all manner of weapons, the forest bill excepted.

Also the short staff has advantage against two swords and daggers, or two rapiers, poniards and gauntlets(19), the reasons and causes before are for the most part set down already

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 08:00 PM
I disagree. Smite Evil maybe be iconic to you but its a secondary ability at best especially due to it's extremely low usage. DND 4 may be changing that but this ain't DND4.
A level 16 D&D paladin has smite evil 4 times per day. And by the D&D rules, he also has 4 combats per day.

A smarter way to implement the "one smite per combat" idea is to use the 4th edition system and simply give you one smite per encounter. In DDO the boundary between one combat and another is hard to define, which is why the idea of a longer cooldown for unlimited Smite uses is a good method.

gpk
04-01-2008, 08:09 PM
A smarter way to implement the "one smite per combat" idea is to use the 4th edition system and simply give you one smite per encounter. In DDO the boundary between one combat and another is hard to define, which is why the idea of a longer cooldown for unlimited Smite uses is a good method.

Yep, and this has been suggested before in numerous threads. However the Smite Evil is and will continue to remain a secondary-tertiary ability with a longer cooldown even with unlimitid uses (thought it's a start). The rounds are much shorter in DDO, mobs more plentiful and stronger; certain spells abilities need to be adjusted in DDO as they have been adjusted for other classes.
Smite Evils, in order to be at all viable and to make up for the ever-lacking useful spells and feats needs to not only have drastically more use per rest (see unlimited) but the cooldown examined as well.
Otherwise boost them all you want, they are still irrelevant in the big picture, and their only use is to placate the less saavy players and make them giggle and feel good about seeing the occasional big number.

jarew2you77
04-01-2008, 08:17 PM
who the heck thought of this? Why not add machine guns and cannons while your at it....heck why not give them rocket boosters and some seats while your at it so they can be a jet and fly everyone around. Your getting to be that ******** DM nobody wanted to play with. I saw that on the front page and i thought...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! If this game gets any more ******** i'm leaving....it was even talking about BLING!! I would rather leave than see walking motercycles in the D&D world.... You havent even implemented half the classes and you add BLING AND FRICKEN WHEELS FOR WARFORGED??!!!!

PS- It is april 1st so i'm hoping this is a big april fools joke....

Vormaerin
04-01-2008, 09:00 PM
Read a medieval author like George Silver in his Paradoxes of Defense book, section 26.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

I don't see anything in that article that contradicts what I said. The staff has various advantages over the other weapons in that you can do more things with it, but it doesn't change the fact that "quarterstaff fencers" such as the London Masters did not generally wield the staff in the same way that people think of it today. It is very much more like a polearm or, at times, a greatsword, than anything else. Polearm fighters also used their weapons' shafts to parry, but the weapon was less balanced and generally longer (like the long staff mentioned by Silver). Most players think of 'half staff' fighting when they imagine the use of a quarterstaff.

The D&D quarterstaff is longer than a greatsword or short spear. Medieval ones were 6-8 feet long. Anyway, kind of a side track that's not really germaine to the point.

D&D's quarterstaff is properly set up to be used either as a two handed or a double weapon. DDO's is not. I don't think that substituting weapon finesse ability for the two weapon fighting option would be a problem. Two weapon fighting would be better, but it would also seem like a pretty big change in the game's functioning.

Serpent
04-01-2008, 10:37 PM
UPDATED Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Prereq: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)

Prereq: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (6 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)[/LIST]
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 10 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite I, Paladin Extra Smite III, 34 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier.
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite III:
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier.
NEW Paladin Exalted Smite IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 18 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite III, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 64 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +2 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. (Yes, we realize you can't get this yet, but it will wait patiently for you to hit level 18.)

NEW Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.
NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.


These are ****. Anyone who thinks that making paladins more clicky dependent is a good thing is nuts.

I'm not going to say why they are bad, that has been done in detail already. Simply put this is not what a paladin needs. Giving them 12 times per rest to be decisive to the party is a mistake

Divine Might, Righteous Aura and others are what they need, these are jsut more AP to limit your paladin to the back line. ALmost like Turbine wants them to be secondary healers.

You think I'm wrong then tell me why, please someone give a good argument as to why these are what a paladin needs.

Hvymetal
04-02-2008, 05:23 AM
who the heck thought of this? Why not add machine guns and cannons while your at it....heck why not give them rocket boosters and some seats while your at it so they can be a jet and fly everyone around. Your getting to be that ******** DM nobody wanted to play with. I saw that on the front page and i thought...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! If this game gets any more ******** i'm leaving....it was even talking about BLING!! I would rather leave than see walking motercycles in the D&D world.... You havent even implemented half the classes and you add BLING AND FRICKEN WHEELS FOR WARFORGED??!!!!

PS- It is april 1st so i'm hoping this is a big april fools joke....
Didn't read to far into it or check the link at the bottom of the op did we? ;)

Aesop
04-02-2008, 05:46 AM
These are ****. Anyone who thinks that making paladins more clicky dependent is a good thing is nuts.

I'm not going to say why they are bad, that has been done in detail already. Simply put this is not what a paladin needs. Giving them 12 times per rest to be decisive to the party is a mistake

Divine Might, Righteous Aura and others are what they need, these are jsut more AP to limit your paladin to the back line. ALmost like Turbine wants them to be secondary healers.

You think I'm wrong then tell me why, please someone give a good argument as to why these are what a paladin needs.


Smite Evil: remove the use per rest on smite evil and make it a cooldown like Stunning Blow. Paladins will then be able to use this ability more often and with less frustration of missing with a limited resource. Damage should be based on the Paladins level and an Enhancment to replace the increase uses per day should be added in to increase the base damage of the smite. Say a 4 tier that give +5/10/15/20. If the damage still seems too low (and it may with the high hp of the critters we fight) then increase the damage or decrease the timer. A 15-20 sec cooldown should allow Paladins to maintain a good ratio. If with the Exalted Smite the DPS seems too high then instead remove one of the benefits or just have Exalted Smite be the damage upgrade and ignore the part about +5/10/15/20.

A given encounter doesn't typically last too much longer than a minute or so at high levels so while this will improve the Paladins contributions over time they won't become a hugely dominating force that overshadows everything else.

Aesop

gpk
04-02-2008, 06:18 AM
A given encounter doesn't typically last too much longer than a minute or so at high levels so while this will improve the Paladins contributions over time they won't become a hugely dominating force that overshadows everything else.
Aesop

Here is the litmus test: is it even as good as Ram's Might alone.

Unlimited uses a day is a good 1st step if you are serious about ungimping the proposed smites. Then you can adjust the cooldown timer.

Average the damage over time with average pally stats, average the crits with a tier2 positive crafted khopesh and compare it's contribution to Ram's Might on a hasted Tempest ranger, edit: balance it as if it were on a hasted pally (no tempest, no twf).
If the answer is not even close to Ram's Might reduce the cooldown timer or better yet increase the number of swings smite lasts for. Adjust until you get it right.
In fact consideration should also be given to the fact that since smites are not a persistent boost, they are subject to different issues entirely: not being properly queued into attack chain, moving mobs, dead mobs etc. A pay-on-attack-roll fix for all speciall attacks would most of that.

edit: Furthermore look at the big picture and compare the sum of mod7 pally love to mod 6 range love.

Vhlad
04-02-2008, 06:21 AM
Here is the litmus test: is it even as good as Ram's Might alone.

Unlimited uses a day is a good 1st step if you are serious about ungimping the proposed smites. Then you can adjust the cooldown timer.

Average the damage over time with average pally stats and compare it's contribution to Ram's Might on a hasted Tempest ranger, then just for for fun for fun compare it as if it were on a hasted pally (no tempest, no twf).
If the answer is not even close to Ram's Might reduce the cooldown timer or better yet increase the number of swings smite lasts for.

Wait,

so you want a pally ability that cannot be debuffed that requires no feats and no mana and allows him to use a shield and pick cha as a prime stat to result in just as much DPS as a ranger combination that requires a bunch of feats and no shield, has str has a prime stat, costs mana, and can be debuffed?

Naw, I must have read that wrong.

gpk
04-02-2008, 06:40 AM
Wait,

so you want a pally ability that cannot be debuffed that requires no feats and no mana and allows him to use a shield and pick cha as a prime stat to result in just as much DPS as a ranger combination that requires a bunch of feats and no shield, has str has a prime stat, costs mana, and can be debuffed?

Naw, I must have read that wrong.
Yes you did read wrong but I shoulda been more clear too, my bad.

1st of all debuff aren't the problems they were in Mod 3, 2nd of all 10 SP to re-cast? Big whoop to a ranger, there is no DF to recast every minute.
Im saying it should at least match the contribution of ram's might to 1 hand on a hasted pally, I'll edit for clarity.
As for prime stats, compare the stat reliance of a ranger to a paladin, ranger comes out ahead even if only by one stat.

Overall though there is zero reasons why the sum of all this "pally love" should be less valuable than what was given to the less needy ranger, you can factor in the feats required for Tempest, and you should aslo factor in the bigger hole paladins are in. In fact since paladins were already behind rangers before mod 6 one could say they need relatively more "quality love" than rangers got.

Thus far add up all the proposed "love" and it all falls way short of lil old Ram's Might and really is of near zero value.

If you read my previous posts elsewhere this is not the route I would have taken for "pally love" nor is it the route I thought the devs would have taken.
I'm trying to make lemonade out of some very sour lemons.

Actually you know you have a point, maybe a more detailed comparison of where the pally stands in relation to a mod6 tempest ranger is needed to really put things into perspective, it's early and I'm tired and am making many spelling mistakes, I may get to it later.

Vhlad
04-02-2008, 07:38 AM
It's really just the nature of the mods. Mod 5 was designed in a way where casters blew everyone away. Mod 6 shroud gives that role to DPS barbs/rangers (AC and saves don't matter). If they fill a mod with choas orbs, beholders, anti magic zones, casters that spam greater command, etc, then paladins would be quite the asset.

I think leaving the current smite alone, but giving the paladin a &#37; chance per hit to deliver an exalted smite would be more fun than a clicky they need to spam. A lot of rangers don't like mashing the deepwood sniper button for example, so it would be nice if they didn't start adding more button mashy enhancements (I don't use auto attack so I mash keys enough). Haste boost for example causes a 1 second attack delay after use and sometimes you have to stop attacking for it to even register and go off. I'm not sure if exalted smite is integrated nicely like trip or stunning blow and causes no delay (hopefully it's like that) or if it's lame like the boost clickies, but nonetheless a % chance would be less aggravating than a clicky spam. We're spamming enough with trip, stunning blow, sunder, cleave/great cleave, etc. There's not enough mouse side buttons for more!

gpk
04-02-2008, 07:45 AM
It's really just the nature of the mods. Mod 5 was designed in a way where casters blew everyone away. Mod 6 shroud gives that role to DPS barbs/rangers (AC and saves don't matter).

While I don't necessarily disagree I feel that's an oversimplification of things and I'm not sure where you're going with this; maybe I'm just sleepy.


If they fill a mod with choas orbs, beholders, anti magic zones, casters that spam greater command, etc, then paladins would be quite the asset.
A barbarian would still be much better, and the pally would suffer more from losing all his buffs.

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 07:50 AM
A barbarian would still be much better, and the pally would suffer more from losing all his buffs.

Just another good reason to fix beholders.

Shaamis
04-02-2008, 07:54 AM
All I know is, the day monks come out I will be in the race for the first capped monk in Khyber! :P


Drunken (Dwarf) Style Kung Fu FTW.

Deragoth
04-02-2008, 08:29 AM
Um, Eladrin, I think You've been Misinformed..... No one likes bats... Certainly not more than Slimes and oozes. The only reason they are tolerable in the vale is because we have spells like Firewall and Blade barrier to take careof them. Meleeing them sucks.

Arent Quarterstaffs Finnessable as a DOuble weapon in PnP?

I like bats... When they die :D

Probably the coolest death animation in the game. Kudos to the art department.

EspyLacopa
04-02-2008, 09:58 AM
D&D's quarterstaff is properly set up to be used either as a two handed or a double weapon. DDO's is not. I don't think that substituting weapon finesse ability for the two weapon fighting option would be a problem. Two weapon fighting would be better, but it would also seem like a pretty big change in the game's functioning.

Main problem really is coding to be able to dynamically change how a weapon is wielded. Such as using a Longsword with two-hands for the strength bonus. Or having a Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe be a Martial Two-Handed weapon and an Exotic One-handed Weapon.

I don't know any D&D based computer game that allows a player to dynamically choose such a thing. Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil came the closest, allowing you to use a one-handed weapon in two-hands when a buckler or no shield was equipped. But even then, one could not dynamically change how the weapon was wielded.

Mad_Bombardier
04-02-2008, 10:36 AM
A level 16 D&D paladin has smite evil 4 times per day. And by the D&D rules, he also has 4 combats per day.

A smarter way to implement the "one smite per combat" idea is to use the 4th edition system and simply give you one smite per encounter. In DDO the boundary between one combat and another is hard to define, which is why the idea of a longer cooldown for unlimited Smite uses is a good method.Unlimited use with 60 second cooldown would be appropriate.

Scholar
04-02-2008, 10:47 AM
These are ****. Anyone who thinks that making paladins more clicky dependent is a good thing is nuts.

I'm not going to say why they are bad, that has been done in detail already. Simply put this is not what a paladin needs. Giving them 12 times per rest to be decisive to the party is a mistake

Divine Might, Righteous Aura and others are what they need, these are jsut more AP to limit your paladin to the back line. ALmost like Turbine wants them to be secondary healers.

You think I'm wrong then tell me why, please someone give a good argument as to why these are what a paladin needs.

You are not wrong. These are mostly window dressing. They don't really help much. Some "look" cool. But, that is about it. The only upcoming change that helps is the reduction in the cost of auras. However, in case anyone has forgotten, doesn't put us back where we were before the nerf last winter. You need to be 15th level and spend a lot of points to have the same paladin aura as you had at 9th level before. Some people see this as a bunch of great stuff and don't even realize that it isn't as much a buff as a nerf reduction.

Anyways, if they really want to give me something I'll invest in, come up with something usefull for my 13 turns. I'd really like to have a reason to keep them on my hotbar.

Mhykke
04-02-2008, 11:38 AM
It's really just the nature of the mods. Mod 5 was designed in a way where casters blew everyone away. Mod 6 shroud gives that role to DPS barbs/rangers (AC and saves don't matter).

I disagree. While talking about melee, barbs and rangers, and fighters for that matter, have been ahead of paladins since the cap was 10.

If they fill a mod with choas orbs, beholders, anti magic zones, casters that spam greater command, etc, then paladins would be quite the asset.

Again, I disagree. If they filled a zone w/ anti magic, I'd much, much rather the barb than the paladin. Where does the barb rely on his combat ability? From his rage. That can't be dispelled. The paladin's already anaemic combat ability would be further weakend by having his DF useless.

And beholders? Again, I'd much rather a barb go up against a beholder than a paladin. A beholder is deadly from neg leveling. You need to kill the beholder before it neg. lvls you to death, or down to make your saves useless when it FTS's you or something. A barb. is much better at this task. And if you take things such as the beholder optic nerve into account, barbs are even better, b/c they have the better chance of killing the beholder before the charges on his item are expended.

And barbs will saves are perfectly fine when raged. Grtr command is one of the last things I'm worried about when on my barb. And when leading parties through the shroud, I'll gladly put the barbs on the gnoll in part 2.

I think leaving the current smite alone, but giving the paladin a % chance per hit to deliver an exalted smite would be more fun than a clicky they need to spam.

I agree, making all the paladin combat clicky based is annoying, and a mistake.

A lot of rangers don't like mashing the deepwood sniper button for example, so it would be nice if they didn't start adding more button mashy enhancements (I don't use auto attack so I mash keys enough). Haste boost for example causes a 1 second attack delay after use and sometimes you have to stop attacking for it to even register and go off. I'm not sure if exalted smite is integrated nicely like trip or stunning blow and causes no delay (hopefully it's like that) or if it's lame like the boost clickies, but nonetheless a % chance would be less aggravating than a clicky spam. We're spamming enough with trip, stunning blow, sunder, cleave/great cleave, etc. There's not enough mouse side buttons for more!

Replies in red.

Aesop
04-02-2008, 04:00 PM
Unlimited use with 60 second cooldown would be appropriate.

honestly givien the nature it would not be inappropriate for a 20sec cooldown even. Even with enhanced damage a fighter with Greater Weapon Spec will do as much or more damage over the same period of time as the paladin and their damage is based around the weapon not the alignment of the target. I also feel that Fightes have been lacking on effective Enhancments and should be given a little love sometime soon.

Aesop

gpk
04-02-2008, 07:25 PM
honestly givien the nature it would not be inappropriate for a 20sec cooldown even. Even with enhanced damage a fighter with Greater Weapon Spec will do as much or more damage over the same period of time as the paladin and their damage is based around the weapon not the alignment of the target. I also feel that Fightes have been lacking on effective Enhancments and should be given a little love sometime soon.

Aesop

I think if you compare the contribution of Ram's Might to a hasted 1 handed pally the Smite timer would have to be somewhere in the 6-12 second range (just of the top of my head).
And as I said before, if all there is unlimited smites (and right no there is NO reason for there not to be) then it should be adjusted to better than Ram's might levels primarily due to the fact that the pally is further behind a mod5 ranger.

I'd rather not see all the eggs be put in the smite and would still like to see some supplemental spells like Silverbeard, Righteous Might and Righteous Fury.

And yes these clicky attacks you need to inject into the attack queue aren't really practical, I think there needs to be an alternate passive toggle where the attack would trigger automatically on the swing of your choosing, a little popup box you can drag to tool bar, 1st swing, 4th swing , manual activation .

And yes Fighters are in a very dangerous spot as well, they have already started their journey to paladin-neglect-ville and there should be alarms going off at turbine.

Kraegor
04-02-2008, 07:56 PM
Ok. Find a light blunt weapon that is also made of wood in a D&D source. Clubs are not light, and deal 1d6 damage. Closest I can find are Nunchaku, and those are Exotic.

Perhaps make Quarterstaves finessable if you take an exotic proficiency in them.

In d20 D&D, anything that can be easily used in 1 hand, made of wood/metal with no special attachments to it can be a "club".
(2 handed "clubs" are greatclubs, i.e. Baseball Bat)

Broken Broom Handle
Chair Leg
Sawed off Baseball bat
Sheathed Sword
Umbrella

Now we get into the finessable weapons:

Nightsticks (police type issue)
Rattan (Long slender 18" wooden sticks)
Baton (long 18 inch 1" diameter club)
Shinai (slightly curved form of the Rattan)

and many many others...



Most of the following martial arts use stick weapons similar to these, or slight variations.

* Arnis (Filipino)
* Bartitsu (English, Swiss/French and Japanese)
* Bata (Irish)
* Baranta (Hungarian)
* Canne de combat (French)
* Bâton français (French)
* Bōjutsu (Japanese, Okinawan)
* Calinda (Caribbean, especially Trinidad)
* Dravidian martial arts (Dravidian)
* Egyptian stick fencing
* Eskrima (Filipino)
* Gun (staff) (Chinese)
* Hanbo (Japanese)
* Jogo do Pau (Portuguese)
* Jojutsu (Japanese)
* Juego del Palo (Canary Islands)
* Kendo (Japanese)
* Kali (martial art)) (USA - based on Filipino)
* La canne (French modern)
* Makila (Basque)
* Nguni stick fighting (South African herdboy tradition)
* Quarterstaff (English Medieval)
* Shillelagh (Irish)
* Silambam (Tamil)
* SCA rattan weapons (United States)
* Tamil Martial Arts (Tamil)

MysticTheurge
04-02-2008, 08:32 PM
In d20 D&D, anything that can be easily used in 1 hand, made of wood/metal with no special attachments to it can be a "club".
(2 handed "clubs" are greatclubs, i.e. Baseball Bat)

Broken Broom Handle
Chair Leg
Sawed off Baseball bat
Sheathed Sword
Umbrella

Uh, no.

Those things are improvised weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons).

EspyLacopa
04-02-2008, 10:00 PM
In d20 D&D, anything that can be easily used in 1 hand, made of wood/metal with no special attachments to it can be a "club".
(2 handed "clubs" are greatclubs, i.e. Baseball Bat)

Guess what?

Clubs aren't Light.

Geonis
04-03-2008, 12:36 AM
Oh, well that's easy. I can answer that.

Well, I will apologize to anyone that thinks I am calling them unintelligent.

That being said, I said what I said, because it is a mathematical fact that the new enhancements will lower overall DPS.

That is the opposite of what we (the Paladin playing majority) have asked for time and time again.

Add to that the fact that Pallys have been nerfed on several occasions, but the Devs are unwilling to even adjust what they have admitted was an overpowered enhancement to Barbarians.

It all adds up to a complete lack of "Pally Love".

I don't understand the Devs infatuation with Smite Evil.

It can be a useful ability in PnP, where it does not slow down your attack speed, in fact does nothing but help your offense.

This is in an environment where you would be facing approximately 2-4 encounters a day.

In DDO we face 2-4 encounters about every 5 minutes.

That being said, 4 or even 8 Smite Evils per day, if they are to be the primary form of damage dealing of the Paladin, are insufficient at best.

An alternative for Smite Evil:


Smite Evil should be placed on a timer like ManyShot.
Edit:The timer should be nowhere near the length of ManyShot, perhaps 20-30 seconds cooldown.


This gives the ability to use it unlimited times per "day", but not excessively often.

The enhancements for Paladins could include 2 for Smite Evil, one to lower the cooldown, another to increase the base damage.


Improved Smite Evil I
Prereq:Extra Smite Evil II, 16 AP spent
Cost 1AP
Benefit:Lowers the Smite Evil cooldown from 25 seconds to 21 seconds.


Improved Smite Evil II
Prereq:Improved Smite Evil I, 32 AP spent
Cost 2AP
Benefit:Lowers the Smite Evil cooldown from 21 seconds to 17 seconds.


Improved Smite Evil III
Prereq:Improved Smite Evil II, 48 AP spent
Cost 3AP
Benefit:Lowers the Smite Evil cooldown from 17 seconds to 13 seconds.


Enhanced Smite Evil I
Prereq:Improved Smite Evil II, Smite Evil I, 28 AP spent
Cost 2AP
Benefit:Adds Good alignment to all smites, and increases the threat range for your smites by +1.


Enhanced Smite Evil I
Prereq:Extra Smite Evil II, Enhanced Smite Evil I, 52 AP spent
Cost 4AP
Benefit:Increases the threat range for your smites by an additional +1, and ignores any DR (including those normally not bypassable).


There is an example of Smite Evil enhancements I would take.

Adding xd6 to an ability doesn't work in this game, because the mobs have an insane number of HPs.

If the proposed "enhancements" go into the game as is, I won't say another word, I will just quietly delete my Pally and roll a Halfling Rogue..........:(

gpk
04-03-2008, 01:32 AM
I'm sorry but there is just no rational way to justify the proposed "additions" to the paladin class as "pally love".
Anytime you sit down and compare the numbers, their contribution etc. you see that they amount to near zero worth.

Those that are wowed by the possibility of the occasional high crit simply haven't given it much thought or would be pleased no matter what you gave them. There are players in every game that no matter what have "fun", glaring imbalances or not they still have "fun" and still say "oh that's good". Some people are just not good gamers, this is not an insult it's just the way life is. Others don't have the free time to improve or make more sound observations, again there is nothing wrong with that, there is no shame in having a busy real life.

However, a game like DDO attracts a fair amount of savvy players and unfortunately I feel they are very underrepresented here in the forums, and this so called "pally love" is far from even being close to even what rangers got in mod6; and let's not forget rangers were in better shape than pallies were.

The proposed changes are completely the opposite of what is needed to stop the paladin from being in a distant last place compared to all other classes. Not only are they the opposite, but they are near worthless and irrelevant and really serve only as insult to injury.

I challenge anyone to explain to us WHY they are valuable additions; the reasons why they are terrible have been presented in this and various other threads already.

It would be a HUGE mistake for there not to be any actual pally love for mod7; bigger than the imbalances created with other things given to other classes.

You'll have to forgive the "impolite" tones in these posts; but we've been waiting for what will soon be a year for the pally class to be fixed, and thus far there is nothing that indicates positive changes.

I sure hope there is a bunch more quality stuff coming.

Geonis
04-03-2008, 01:55 AM
I'm sorry but there is just no rational way to justify the proposed "additions" to the paladin class as "pally love".
Anytime you sit down and compare the numbers, their contribution etc. you see that they amount to near zero worth.

Those that are wowed by the possibility of the occasional high crit simpy haven't given it much thought or would be pleased no matter what you gave them. There are players in every game that no matetr what have "fun", glaring imbalances or not they still have "fun" and still say "oh that's good". Some people are just not good gamers, this is not an insult it's just the way life is. Others don't have the free time to improve or make more sound observations, again there is nothing wrong with that, there is no shame in having a busy real life.

However, a game like DDO attracts a fair amount of savvy players and unfrotunately I feel they are very underepresented here in the forums, and this so called "pally love" is far from even being close to even what rangers got in mod6; and let's not forget rangers were in better shape than pallies were.

The proposed changes are completely the opposite of what is needed to stop the paladin from being in a distant last place compared to all other classes. Not only are they the opposite, but they are near worthless and irrelevant and really serve only as insult to injury.

I challenge anyone to explain to us WHY they are valuable additions; the reasons why they are terrible have been presented in this and various other threads already.

It would be a HUGE mistake for there not to be any actual pally love for mod7; bigger than the imbalances created with other things given to other classes.

You'll have to forgive the "impolite" tones in these posts; but we've been waiting for what will soon be a year for the pally class to be fixed, and thus far there is nothing that indicates positive changes.

I sure hope there is a bunch more quality stuff coming.



QFT

Turial
04-03-2008, 05:59 AM
I like your idea for the passive insertion of clicky attacks into the attack que via passive toggle. Though the tactical attacks like trip, stunning blow, etc maybe a little to powerful if they simply happened every time the timer was up.
I think if you compare the contribution of Ram's Might to a hasted 1 handed pally the Smite timer would have to be somewhere in the 6-12 second range (just of the top of my head).
And as I said before, if all there is unlimited smites (and right no there is NO reason for there not to be) then it should be adjusted to better than Ram's might levels primarily due to the fact that the pally is further behind a mod5 ranger.

I'd rather not see all the eggs be put in the smite and would still like to see some supplemental spells like Silverbeard, Righteous Might and Righteous Fury.

And yes these clicky attacks you need to inject into the attack queue aren't really practical, I think there needs to be an alternate passive toggle where the attack would trigger automatically on the swing of your choosing, a little popup box you can drag to tool bar, 1st swing, 4th swing , manual activation .

And yes Fighters are in a very dangerous spot as well, they have already started their journey to paladin-neglect-ville and there should be alarms going off at turbine.