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View Full Version : Human Versatility - A Spellcaster's Perspective



Aspenor
03-28-2008, 08:43 AM
Firstly, before I begin, I will put forth that my current main character is a human caster. So, take that for what you will, however, I feel that Human Versatility could/should be expanded a bit in its functionality.

It just seems like the human versatility boost is designed around melee-type characters. AC, Saves, To-Hit....all useful for a melee. However, what about human casters? Could not human versatility be made more...utilitarian??

The essential proposal is to add one or both of these options to the human versatility enhancement:
1. Spell Penetration Levels - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell penetration rolls for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell penetration rolls for duration, etc.
2. Spell DC's - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell DC's for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell DC's for duration; etc.\

Yeah, I know, people are gonna say "the devs could be working on more important things" or "revert HV to a static bonus" or tons of things of that nature. That's fine if you want to, but the importance is a non-issue for me and boosting HV is here to stay, I believe.

It's just an idea, so, discuss.

Turial
03-28-2008, 08:45 AM
Sounds like a decent addition to help diversify the caster pool from drow and forged.

MysticTheurge
03-28-2008, 08:48 AM
It seems to me that spell DC boost would be too powerful, but I like the idea of a spell penetration boost.

Other things that might be useful to spellcasters: DR, concealment, sprint boost, a "quicken" like boost (or some other "your spells are harder/impossible to interrupt" kind of boost), a casting speed boost, a cooldown-reduction boost, spell damage increase (relatively small: say +3/6/9/12 which stacks with other enhancements).

Aspenor
03-28-2008, 08:50 AM
It seems to me that spell DC boost would be too powerful, but I like the idea of a spell penetration boost.

Other things that might be useful to spellcasters: DR, concealment, sprint boost, a "quicken" like boost (or some other "your spells are harder/impossible to interrupt" kind of boost), a casting speed boost, a cooldown-reduction boost, spell damage increase (relatively small: say +3/6/9/12 which stacks with other enhancements).

Keep in mind, MT, that HV is a timed boost with a cooldown (which happens to be 10 seconds or so longer than the boost itself).

Are *temporary* spell DC bonuses too powerful?

krud
03-28-2008, 08:54 AM
What are you doing with a human spellcaster?! Didn't you reroll him as a drow yet?!

seriously, not a bad idea at all. My first thoughts were, like MT, that it would be a bit too powerful. His list seems like a good compromise.

Aspenor
03-28-2008, 08:56 AM
What are you doing with a human spellcaster?! Didn't you reroll him as a drow yet?!

seriously, not a bad idea at all. My first thoughts were, like MT, that it would be a bit too powerful. His list seems like a good compromise.

Human > Drow

krud
03-28-2008, 08:59 AM
Keep in mind, MT, that HV is a timed boost with a cooldown (which happens to be 10 seconds or so longer than the boost itself).

Are *temporary* spell DC bonuses too powerful?

5 spells at a +4 DC per shrine. Probably not much difference for run of the mill mobs, but you could save them for only mini bosses. It would be a big boost against them.

Aspenor
03-28-2008, 09:02 AM
5 spells at a +4 DC per shrine. Probably not much difference for run of the mill mobs, but you could save them for only mini bosses. It would be a big boost against them.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of 20 seconds of spellcasting at maximum +4 DC (assuming you maxxed out HV), not per spell.

A human sorc could get off quite a few spells in those 20 seconds, I guess, depending on which quest they are in.

rimble
03-28-2008, 09:11 AM
Raising spell DC is a bit much I think. Raising Spell Penetration is more acceptable, but I still think a little much. I think to really highlight this whole 'human versatility' thing, maybe Humans should get a sort of Practiced Spellcaster ability in Enhancement form. It'd make them superior multi-class casters, and I think that more accurately reproduces the Human jack-of-all-trades affinity.

Really, the whole 'boost' thing is nonsense. Humans aren't known for being better at some things in short spurts...they're just good jack-of-all-trades types. I'm not a 'boost' fan, and I don't think it really fits in with Human design goals, and I think making them the superior caster race (for small bursts) isn't consistent with Human lore either.

KoboldKiller
03-28-2008, 09:17 AM
As my main is a Human Wizzy I would agree with Asp. I also don't think it goes against lore as humans have been known in certain situations to overcome something seemingly insurmountable so a short burst of power would be acceptable.

Draiden
03-28-2008, 01:18 PM
Human > Drow

QFT!!!! Thank GOD! Somebody else out there sees this... Asp, you rock.

Kaldais
03-28-2008, 06:24 PM
Firstly, before I begin, I will put forth that my current main character is a human caster. So, take that for what you will, however, I feel that Human Versatility could/should be expanded a bit in its functionality.

It just seems like the human versatility boost is designed around melee-type characters. AC, Saves, To-Hit....all useful for a melee. However, what about human casters? Could not human versatility be made more...utilitarian??

The essential proposal is to add one or both of these options to the human versatility enhancement:
1. Spell Penetration Levels - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell penetration rolls for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell penetration rolls for duration, etc.
2. Spell DC's - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell DC's for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell DC's for duration; etc.\

Yeah, I know, people are gonna say "the devs could be working on more important things" or "revert HV to a static bonus" or tons of things of that nature. That's fine if you want to, but the importance is a non-issue for me and boosting HV is here to stay, I believe.

It's just an idea, so, discuss.

I disagree, I can see where Dev gets the HV boost ideas, all HV boosts have an existing action boost for their respective class. To hit, to damage, to save, to skills etc. There is no action boosts for spell DC. Spell pen. maybe, but +4 is too powerful of a burst, cap it at +2.

BillBob
03-29-2008, 06:09 PM
I do like the idea but i'd say that it may scale something like: All 20 secs and This is a separate HV line for casters.

Human Versatility Arcane: I (4pts), II (6pts)

HVI - Arcane Aggression +1% Arcane Lore
HVII - Arcane Aggression +2% Arcane Lore

HVI - Arcane Utility 1 +1 spell penetration
HVII - Arcane Utility 2 +2 spell penetration

HVI - Arcane Focus +1 Abjuration, Illusion, Enchantment
HVII - Arcane Focus +1 Necromancy, Transmutation, Evocation

**They all stack with current bonuses

I dunno, there are quite a few options that are available and placing them all under HV could get too powerful and/or too cumbersome. This alone could prove to be too powerful.

I, personally, would love to see some more school specialization for casters. Maybe giving humans some enhancements that would make them more school focused provide a nice niche as compared to other casters. Right now with the additional feat humans already lend themselves well to being school specialists if they dump their extra feat into Spell Focus and Grtr Spell Focus.

Lithic
03-29-2008, 07:36 PM
Its true that arcane humans have no reason to take this sucky enhancement (none of mine do), but it would be nice if HV counted as rogue skill boost 1/2/3/4, as well as paladin save boost 1/2/3/4 etc... for prereq purposes. The way things are going, most of the prestige-style enhancements are going to require thier class's boost as a prereq, and if I have to take a class boost, im not going to also take HV for the same boost (especially if they share a times/day as I have heard, though not confirmed).

Humans seriously need some enhancement attention. the healing is kind of nice, but should be 1/2/3 progession (if not a 1/1/1), versitility is a joke for most (though my hagglebot uses it to further my wallet), and they cant even take both stat bonuses on the same stat. Give them a "slay everything within 200ft, no save 3xday" button and humans would STILL be sub-dwarf in enhancements.

Ok now that my rant is over, how bout for casters you make HV into a 20second "quicken" boost? Make spells uninteruptable at stage HV3, and have each tier give a stacking +20% casting speed. At HV4, you would cast at 180% casting speed and could not be interrupted for 20seconds. Considering the +5 damage, saves, or AC boost, I think this would be about balanced for what melee's get.

DagazUlf
03-29-2008, 08:03 PM
If they want to keep HV on the cooldowns, I would like to see the existing options changed into packages based on melee, caster, ranged, healer, trapsmith, etc., instead of the current offering.

Examples (very spur-of-the-moment here):

Caster Package
HV 1 - +1 Focus (all schools)
HV 2 - +1 Spell Penetration
HV 3 - +1 Spell DC
HV 4 - +2 Spell Penetration

Melee Package
HV 1 - +1 AC
HV 2 - +2 AC, +1 Damage
HV 3 - +3 AC, +2 Damage, +05% Melee Alacrity
HV 4 - +4 AC, +3 Damage, +10% Melee Alacrity

Rogue Package
HV 1 - +1 Skills
HV 2 - +2 Skills, +1 Saves
HV 3 - +3 Skills, +2 Saves
HV 4 - +4 Skills, +3 Saves, Speed Boost

I think you get the picture. The "packages" would need need some really cool names, though. :p

Only similar packages stack, but you could take multiple packages if you wanted to spend the AP.

honkuimushi
03-30-2008, 10:13 AM
Its true that arcane humans have no reason to take this sucky enhancement (none of mine do), but it would be nice if HV counted as rogue skill boost 1/2/3/4, as well as paladin save boost 1/2/3/4 etc... for prereq purposes. The way things are going, most of the prestige-style enhancements are going to require thier class's boost as a prereq, and if I have to take a class boost, im not going to also take HV for the same boost (especially if they share a times/day as I have heard, though not confirmed).

Humans seriously need some enhancement attention. the healing is kind of nice, but should be 1/2/3 progession (if not a 1/1/1), versitility is a joke for most (though my hagglebot uses it to further my wallet), and they cant even take both stat bonuses on the same stat. Give them a "slay everything within 200ft, no save 3xday" button and humans would STILL be sub-dwarf in enhancements.

Ok now that my rant is over, how bout for casters you make HV into a 20second "quicken" boost? Make spells uninteruptable at stage HV3, and have each tier give a stacking +20% casting speed. At HV4, you would cast at 180% casting speed and could not be interrupted for 20seconds. Considering the +5 damage, saves, or AC boost, I think this would be about balanced for what melee's get.


When they changed HV to boost more than skills, it was changed so that it no longer used the same counter as the class skill boosts. My Ranger/ Rogue picked up Rogue Skill Boost II when he got his 6th Rogue level in order to pick up Way of the Mechanic. It wasn't so bad, it only cost 3 APs and now I have 5 +5 boosts and 5 +3 boosts. It's occasionally useful in trap heavy quests or when I need to UMD something. While I'm still not completely satisfied, the addition of the other boosts did entice me to pick it up on a few of my melee focused humans, especially sice they're all fairly deeply multiclassed. And the only class that looks like it will require a kill boost is Rogue. I haven't seen any of the other boosts listed as prereqs for PrEs either.


The Improved Recovery is nice, but only really great on Barbarians. I agree, 6 APs for another 10% to get you to 30% is a bit steep.

Human Adaptability should probably have it's costs reduced as well. +1 to a stat, even 2 stats, is less useful than +2 to 1 stat. The fact that you have to wait a lot longer, 'till levels 5 and 13 should be plenty to balance it. The fact that it costs the same as a +2 racial stat bonus is ridiculous. It should probably be a 2/2 or 1/2 enhancement, not 2/4. Especially because you have to reset your enhancements to change what stat you add it to.

I agree, Humans need a lot of help with their enhancements. I was hoping to get Able Learner added, ideally as a Racial ability, but even getting just the feat would be a nice bonus.

Aesop
03-30-2008, 10:16 AM
Firstly, before I begin, I will put forth that my current main character is a human caster. So, take that for what you will, however, I feel that Human Versatility could/should be expanded a bit in its functionality.

It just seems like the human versatility boost is designed around melee-type characters. AC, Saves, To-Hit....all useful for a melee. However, what about human casters? Could not human versatility be made more...utilitarian??

The essential proposal is to add one or both of these options to the human versatility enhancement:
1. Spell Penetration Levels - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell penetration rolls for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell penetration rolls for duration, etc.
2. Spell DC's - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell DC's for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell DC's for duration; etc.\

Yeah, I know, people are gonna say "the devs could be working on more important things" or "revert HV to a static bonus" or tons of things of that nature. That's fine if you want to, but the importance is a non-issue for me and boosting HV is here to stay, I believe.

It's just an idea, so, discuss.



Sounds a little potent really... Maybe combine the two Spell pen at 1 and 3 and DC at 2 and 4

Aesop

oronisi
03-30-2008, 12:36 PM
I think humans need some enhancement options. I'm not going to complain and say that humans don't get good enhancements, they do. But they only get a few powerful enhancements. I think that humans should have some less powerful but diverse enhancements, like ones for casters, a redo of the old HV line for a constant skills boost, maybe broken up by stats, and maybe even an enhancement or two specifically geared towards multiclassing.

So something like:

Human Versatility: Necromancy Focus - +1 spell pen for spells from the necromancy school

and

Human Versatility: Intelligence Skills Focus - +1 to all intelligence-based skills (Disable Device, Search,...)

Jarlaxel
03-30-2008, 03:06 PM
Human > Drow

agreed :)

Lithic
03-30-2008, 03:09 PM
agreed :)

Kind of funny considering you are named after, and use the forum avatar of a drow :D

bandyman1
03-30-2008, 03:18 PM
Sorry bro, but I'd have to disagree here.

The main point being that wizards need the extra spell pen boost from enhancements and free feat slots from free metamagics, in addition to thier versatility of spell selection, in order to remain viable compared to sorcs. Sure sorcs can still take the feats...but in doing so they limit their available metamagic and other feat options.

Now I know if this were implemented that a human wizard would see the same benefits, but the wizard needs those benifits exclusively, over the sorc in order to remain a viable class.

Perhaps I'd agree with the DC boost, but I agree that +4 is a little potent. Maybe +2.

QuixoticDan
03-30-2008, 03:27 PM
To keep in line with the OP:

Maybe some boosts that use up the HV boosts per day, but are purchased on a separate enhancement line, like a rogue with Way of the Mechanic getting that WF heal. Having one set for spell DC's (+1 at rank 1, +2 at rank 2), one for spell pen (+1 at rank 1, +3 at rank 2), maybe a set for casting speed and interruptability, maybe even a set for mana costs (-1 mana/cast at rank 1, -3 mana/cast at rank 2).

As a side note, getting a little extra AC isn't too bad, getting a bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Concentration is probably underrated, and everybody makes saving throws eventually. I do agree that, specifically, casters are a bit left out of the list (unless the damage bonus could apply to spells somehow).

To follow with how the thread is 'splaying out' a bit in idea:

HV is a really great clickie, and if used right can patch up a lot of holes in a multiclass build (for 20 seconds). I think one thing would be really sweet, but maybe imbalancing...if the HV boost was on a separate cooldown from existing class boosts (fighter AC boost, ranger/rogue skill boosts). Based on what I remember from the descriptions, it's an untyped boost, so they would both stack if they could be used at the same time.

Improved Recovery is nice to have, pretty much all my humans take the first rank (and I do like playing humans). The other ranks are a bit expensive. And I'm inclined to agree, the high level requirement on the stat boosts (and the fact that you can't double up on a single stat) doesn't combine well with the high AP cost, especially if you're focusing on class enhancements more than purely human enhancements.

Snoggy
03-30-2008, 03:32 PM
I'm a little stuck on the basic concept. Human racials should boost arcane spellcasting ... because?

QuixoticDan
03-30-2008, 03:37 PM
Arcane and Divine. Because the enhancement lines currently representing the inherently versatile nature of humanity don't reflect casting classes...at least, not to the extent they reflect melee- and skill-based classes.

Aesop
03-30-2008, 03:43 PM
I'm a little stuck on the basic concept. Human racials should boost arcane spellcasting ... because?

I think because humans are good at everything is the theory.

Maybe instead a boost that lowers SP costs by its level +1 so 2,3,4,and 5 for 20 sec

Aesop

MysticTheurge
03-30-2008, 04:08 PM
I'm a little stuck on the basic concept. Human racials should boost arcane spellcasting ... because?

Versatile:

capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.

honkuimushi
03-31-2008, 02:07 AM
How about 1 combined clickie for spellcasting? This might be a little stronger than the other boosts, but as has been mentioned, most casters don't have a lot of use for the otherw, while melee characters will use several of the boosts.

HV I -10% SP, +10% Damage
HV II +1 DC, +1 Spell Penetration
HV III -10% (20% total) SP, +10%(20% total) Damage
HV IV +1 DC (+2 total) , +1(+2 total) Spell Penetration

So with HV IV, you get a 20% discount on spell points, do 20% more damage, and have +2 to DC and Spell penetration. But you can only do that 5 times per rest in 20 bursts. The fact that these are somewhat at cross purposes should help balace it. On a damage spell, the damage enhancement is nice, but the spell penetration doesn't matter at all and the DC is less important. On spells like holld and FoD, the damage is less important, but the DC and spell penetration are very valuable. When you include the casting times, that should provide even more balance. A melee character will attack many more times in 20 than a caster will be able to cast.

Hvymetal
03-31-2008, 02:15 AM
I'm a little stuck on the basic concept. Human racials should boost arcane spellcasting ... because?The same reason Dwarves get a boost to divine spell points? :D

FluffyCalico
03-31-2008, 02:30 AM
Firstly, before I begin, I will put forth that my current main character is a human caster. So, take that for what you will, however, I feel that Human Versatility could/should be expanded a bit in its functionality.

It just seems like the human versatility boost is designed around melee-type characters. AC, Saves, To-Hit....all useful for a melee. However, what about human casters? Could not human versatility be made more...utilitarian??

The essential proposal is to add one or both of these options to the human versatility enhancement:
1. Spell Penetration Levels - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell penetration rolls for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell penetration rolls for duration, etc.
2. Spell DC's - e.g. HV1 - gain +1 to spell DC's for duration; HV2 - gain +2 to spell DC's for duration; etc.\

Yeah, I know, people are gonna say "the devs could be working on more important things" or "revert HV to a static bonus" or tons of things of that nature. That's fine if you want to, but the importance is a non-issue for me and boosting HV is here to stay, I believe.

It's just an idea, so, discuss.

UM NO WAY!! If you give humans +4 spell DC for human versitility 4 that is like giving them +8 to their casting stat. Or 4 free feats in every school for free. Last time I checked humans got 1 free feat already the last thing they need is 24 more free feat.

FluffyCalico
03-31-2008, 02:32 AM
How about 1 combined clickie for spellcasting? This might be a little stronger than the other boosts, but as has been mentioned, most casters don't have a lot of use for the otherw, while melee characters will use several of the boosts.

HV I -10% SP, +10% Damage
HV II +1 DC, +1 Spell Penetration
HV III -10% (20% total) SP, +10%(20% total) Damage
HV IV +1 DC (+2 total) , +1(+2 total) Spell Penetration

So with HV IV, you get a 20% discount on spell points, do 20% more damage, and have +2 to DC and Spell penetration. But you can only do that 5 times per rest in 20 bursts. The fact that these are somewhat at cross purposes should help balace it. On a damage spell, the damage enhancement is nice, but the spell penetration doesn't matter at all and the DC is less important. On spells like holld and FoD, the damage is less important, but the DC and spell penetration are very valuable. When you include the casting times, that should provide even more balance. A melee character will attack many more times in 20 than a caster will be able to cast.

Build a drow and stop asking for free feats. It boosts your skills +4 like diplomancy etc