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LeLoric
03-25-2008, 12:54 PM
So I have been thinking with level 20 supposedly gonna be with the next level cap increase, will there be anything that rewards staying pure class. Most classes really don't get much in the last couple levels. Barb and monk are the only that get really significant class bonuses.

This is mainly just some thoughts I had and I know many won't agree but best to discuss it now so that the devs can get our feedback before they have everything already put together and cant change it.

I think each class should get an enhancement opened at level 20 that will be somewhat significant and a reason to stay with a pure class build otherwise almost all classes will have a splash of something at lev 20.

My proposed ideas.

Wizard Mastery

6 ap +1 dc to all spells or -3 to all metamagic costs.

Sorc Mastery

6 ap 10% dmg to all spells

Fighter Mastery

6 ap +4 dmg to any weapon that you have greater weapon spec in

Ranger Mastery

6 ap +2 dmg to favored enemies

Rogue Mastery

6 ap +3 to all skills or a sneak attack dmg bonus

Paladin Mastery

6 ap +2 ac and save bonus to aura

Cleric Mastery

6 ap 10% bonus to all heals and 10% bonus to wand and scroll effeciency

Bard Mastery

6 ap 10% bonus to song duration and +2 dmg bonus to Inspire courage

Barb Mastery

6 ap +2 dmg bonus while raging.

Monk Bonus

Not sure on this have to see how monks are implemented first.

Would something like this be enough to persuade people to stay pure class?
Once again just some ideas please feel free to voice your opinion either way or provide some other examples.

Snoggy
03-25-2008, 03:04 PM
Would something like this be enough to persuade people to stay pure class?

My guess is that no this wouldn't persuade people to stay pure class. 6 APs for something that is just a small boost, when they might be able to achieve more flexibility or more bang for their buck by multiclassing.

Not saying your ideas are bad ideas. Just saying the suggestions won't make people stop and think about staying pure.

Turial
03-25-2008, 03:52 PM
What there needs to be is a set of 3 tier enhancements for each class starting at level 16 and jumping at 18 and finishing at 20. These enhancments should focus making the class itself more powerful while maintaining a distinct barrier between the classes. Likely each class would need either 2 or 3 lines for the top tiers. The only requirement would be x levels of y class and if you take 1 line it locks the others out. (yeah I know sounds a lot like PrCs at the moment)

Emili
03-25-2008, 04:04 PM
What there needs to be is a set of 3 tier enhancements for each class starting at level 16 and jumping at 18 and finishing at 20. These enhancments should focus making the class itself more powerful while maintaining a distinct barrier between the classes. Likely each class would need either 2 or 3 lines for the top tiers. The only requirement would be x levels of y class and if you take 1 line it locks the others out. (yeah I know sounds a lot like PrCs at the moment)


That is does...

The problem is doing it by enhancements is that enhancements are also somewhat part of the problem... ie.) enhancement x IV costs more then Enhancement x III yet yields the same increase - although it stacks the payoff is often way too small when you can look at adding another class thus even allowing even cheaper ap cost for enhancemnt y I... thus entered the bang for the buck.

Impaqt
03-25-2008, 04:14 PM
SOrry, this goes against PnP on many Levels. The Multiclassing system in 3.5 PnP was created to allow people more flexibility in their Character creation. Adding Overpowereed enhancments so deep in the game would cause severe unrest in the community.

Emili
03-25-2008, 04:33 PM
SOrry, this goes against PnP on many Levels. The Multiclassing system in 3.5 PnP was created to allow people more flexibility in their Character creation. Adding Overpowereed enhancments so deep in the game would cause severe unrest in the community.

While the idea was flexibility... I do get the picture it was not thier intent to discourage pures or else they would have level capped the pure classes to begin with - ie.) a 20 bard is very much more a barb then a splashed 2 rogue/2 ranger/18 barb... in fact the 20 barb'd may be even a tad more powerful at being a barb as they enter epic level. You do not find that here in DDO due to lack of feats and if anything the current enhancement system encourages multi-classed even moreso.

Impaqt
03-25-2008, 04:45 PM
While the idea was flexibility... I do get the picture it was not thier intent to discourage pures or else they would have level capped the pure classes to begin with - ie.) a 20 bard is very much more a barb then a splashed 2 rogue/2 ranger/18 barb... in fact the 20 barb'd may be even a tad more powerful at being a barb as they enter epic level. You do not find that here in DDO due to lack of feats and if anything the current enhancement system encourages multi-classed even moreso.

THeres already a Significant benefit in PnP.. Its called Epic Levels.

LeLoric
03-25-2008, 06:58 PM
Im not saying that pure classes should be better or a system like this is designed to do that but there should be some sort of benefit for staying pure. Another idea would be to have the prestige class enhancements last line be at 20

Emili
03-25-2008, 08:57 PM
Im not saying that pure classes should be better or a system like this is designed to do that but there should be some sort of benefit for staying pure. Another idea would be to have the prestige class enhancements last line be at 20


THeres already a Significant benefit in PnP.. Its called Epic Levels.

Impaqt already addressed that ... he said wait til epic levels to gain your bonus epic feats. I suppose one could just hope they're as potent as one class (feat + enhancement) + another class (feat + enhancement).

Yuhjn
03-25-2008, 10:40 PM
First of all you're wrong about the next level cap being 20. I know there are rumors because "all the spells are done at 18 so they can just give us 20 for free" but those rumors are completely false.

They have to make a bunch of content to go from 18 to 20. As a result you'll see 16-20 as 2 seporate modules (16-18 and 18-20)

Expect M7 in may-ish (monks)
M8 is level 18 and happens late summer.
From them I expect one really big module late in the year that gives us level 20 and hopefully 1 new race.

LeLoric
03-26-2008, 01:10 AM
Impaqt already addressed that ... he said wait til epic levels to gain your bonus epic feats. I suppose one could just hope they're as potent as one class (feat + enhancement) + another class (feat + enhancement).

And we have not been promised epic levels at any time. There was a couple posts that mentioned if.

Biggest issue is at 18 a pure character would benefit more from taking a couple of levels in a different class if there are no high level enhancements provided as I can take my fighter add 2 ranger levels get several feats given plus enhancements like ranger dex and the like.

I am not against multiclassing in any way, I have several characters that do it and benefit greatly from it. I just think there should be some incentive to stay pure. Epic levels arent a good incentive as theres no guarantee we will ever get them.

FluffyCalico
03-26-2008, 01:19 AM
So I have been thinking with level 20 supposedly gonna be with the next level cap increase, will there be anything that rewards staying pure class. Most classes really don't get much in the last couple levels. Barb and monk are the only that get really significant class bonuses.

This is mainly just some thoughts I had and I know many won't agree but best to discuss it now so that the devs can get our feedback before they have everything already put together and cant change it.

I think each class should get an enhancement opened at level 20 that will be somewhat significant and a reason to stay with a pure class build otherwise almost all classes will have a splash of something at lev 20.

My proposed ideas.

Wizard Mastery

6 ap +1 dc to all spells or -3 to all metamagic costs.

Sorc Mastery

6 ap 10% dmg to all spells

Fighter Mastery

6 ap +4 dmg to any weapon that you have greater weapon spec in

Ranger Mastery

6 ap +2 dmg to favored enemies

Rogue Mastery

6 ap +3 to all skills or a sneak attack dmg bonus

Paladin Mastery

6 ap +2 ac and save bonus to aura

Cleric Mastery

6 ap 10% bonus to all heals and 10% bonus to wand and scroll effeciency

Bard Mastery

6 ap 10% bonus to song duration and +2 dmg bonus to Inspire courage

Barb Mastery

6 ap +2 dmg bonus while raging.

Monk Bonus

Not sure on this have to see how monks are implemented first.

Would something like this be enough to persuade people to stay pure class?
Once again just some ideas please feel free to voice your opinion either way or provide some other examples.

Um rewards are built into DnD for staying pure class.

Example at 20 a fighter has 20BAB
But a 18 fighter 2 rogue has 19 bab or 1 less attack in the cycle and in DDO that last attack in the cycle is your best. Or about 20% less DPS. So yes there are huge rewards for staying a pure class, its already built into the system for pretty much every class. All these people running around with a level of this and a level of that really should look at how hosed they will be if the cap stays at 20 for a long long time like it proabably will. Epic will probably be a whole new software buy.

Emili
03-26-2008, 05:53 AM
... as stated in interview here. Yet as we all know anything not concieved as of yet may never be brought to fruition.

http://www.massively.com/2008/03/15/ddo-qanda-mod-7-the-monk-and-more/

Q: Is there an intended end level for DDO?
A: I wouldn't say it's the end, but our goal for this year is to get to level 20; next year we'll talk about epic levels and other plans for the game. We focus on a view of the next 2/3 years but until we get closer we can't nail down specifics.

... as a class enters into epic levels epic feats become available for all. The diffrences between a splash truely is in the number of bonus feats they may have missed out on in the end. I find it uncanny though how some of the enhancement lines themselves mimic an epic feat in some ways such as Greater Dexterity, etc... so then the multi-classed splash really may not be as behind as some may think - it all depends on the implementation.

llevenbaxx
03-26-2008, 07:12 AM
What there needs to be is a set of 3 tier enhancements for each class starting at level 16 and jumping at 18 and finishing at 20. These enhancments should focus making the class itself more powerful while maintaining a distinct barrier between the classes. Likely each class would need either 2 or 3 lines for the top tiers. The only requirement would be x levels of y class and if you take 1 line it locks the others out. (yeah I know sounds a lot like PrCs at the moment)

The thing about MCing is if you just splash a level or two of a class you dont give much up and can still get some nice benefit from this system. If you did any kind of deep MCing you end up giving much more power up because of the enhancement system. So the MCers that could use the most power boost becasue of lost enhancements end up getting nothing while the splashers who give up virtually nothing still can further benefit.

Unfortunately with the current enhancement system you give up much more by deep MCing than you do with splashing. I play pure, splash and deeply MCed characters so I dont like the idea of playing build favorites. This is all "end-class" enhancements do and is why I am wholly against them in any form. Unless the compensate deeply MCed characters(who in most cases already give up more overall power than they gain from diversity) in some way, I think it would be very poor design. Not to say I dont think they will do it.

I would be fully for them if they decided to some how base them around a characters race.

Mad_Bombardier
03-26-2008, 09:15 AM
Im not saying that pure classes should be better or a system like this is designed to do that but there should be some sort of benefit for staying pure. Another idea would be to have the prestige class enhancements last line be at 20I half agree. I'd like to see something available at high levels for each class. But, that comes from class benefits at 20 such as Mighty Rage or Inspire Courage +4. Prestige Classes/Enhancements have nothing to do with pure class. Prestige Enhancements will do fine with 3 tiers at L6/12/18. Likewise, most enhancement lines can probably stop with highest tier at L18.

MysticTheurge
03-26-2008, 12:33 PM
I could see them translating some epic feats into level 20 enhancements for the various classes.

Holy Strike, Bane of Enemies, Multispell, Music of the Gods, Keen Strike, Chaotic Rage, Lingering Damage, Overwhelming Critical.

They could pull some nice "capstone" abilities from there.