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Invalid_86
03-24-2008, 06:49 PM
Out of curiousity has anyone made a character that takes advantage of the new great crossbow rules? If so what did you do and how has it worked out for you?

The idea of a halfling with a hand cannon sounds fun, just wondering how practical it is.

Thanks!

Mad_Bombardier
03-25-2008, 09:45 AM
Halfling is definitely the way to go. Fighter for all the feats necessary for optimized ranged combat. A guildie just built a new version of the classic repeater build. Still took repeater for low levels, but will also take Great Crossbow later in life (has Banishing and Smiting Great Crossbows waiting for ml:12).

You'll mow through normal monsters, but find yourself backpeddling/kiting more and more on Hard and Elite due to monster HP. Coordinate with your party and draw monsters. You soften them up, draw them through your waiting infantry and let them hack 'em down.

sigtrent
03-25-2008, 12:46 PM
My philosophy on crossbows and ranged weapons in general is that it isn't a good thing to specificaly build for (aka base the whole character on) but they are decent strategies to add to a character that isn't a naturaly good melee fighter.

I've seen some great crossbow builds and they functioned pretty well if not spectacularly. Still I think you want to bring something to the party beyond your hand cannon. Personaly I like bards becasue in the process of making themselves a strong ranged combatant they are helping out the whole party via buffs.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-25-2008, 01:07 PM
I already had a Great Crossbowman build before the change.
Definately more powerful now!
He's a human fighter, dex based and weapon finesse as a backup.

few things I've noticed.
One trick ponies have limitations.......many times baddies will charge and force you to fight hand to hand......eliminates your primary attack power.

Improved Crit is awesome!
My Crossbowman seems to actually get the high kill count often.....suprises me that he does, and I think I've just been lucky (sorta) to run with non-uber melee types lately......but Ive seen some decent numbers in the kill count post mod 6.

Banishing Great Crossbow and Improved Crit is nice!
Burst and other Crit stuff is nice!

My guy is lvl 10 now and has only ranged feats & weapon Finesse.
Not sure how he will turn out in end game.......defintately has flaws....lack of melee ability......but can be fun to play.

Most important feat is Improved Crit.........I think rapid reload and rapid shot both increase crossbow speed.

roadkill525
03-25-2008, 01:11 PM
I got a rogue useing a repeater... what feats are most needed for a crossbow/repeater user?

Talon_Moonshadow
03-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Halfling is definitely the way to go. Fighter for all the feats necessary for optimized ranged combat. A guildie just built a new version of the classic repeater build. Still took repeater for low levels, but will also take Great Crossbow later in life (has Banishing and Smiting Great Crossbows waiting for ml:12).

You'll mow through normal monsters, but find yourself backpeddling/kiting more and more on Hard and Elite due to monster HP. Coordinate with your party and draw monsters. You soften them up, draw them through your waiting infantry and let them hack 'em down.

That's a good point..
I have several ranged builds....
All do better on normal dificulty than hard/elite....because of HP.

Seems ranged combat is extremely effective against lower HP baddies.....tabbing through targets and not needing to move to attack them.
But the kill counts drop behind as the HP increase.....

It's true even on higher lvl content. Normal difficulty still lands high kill counts for a ranged specced combatant.....but drops way behind on elite.

The difference is quite large. It seems ranged combat is not very gimped on normal.....but is still very gimped on elite.

(gimped, but still very useful, especially on some quests)

sigtrent
03-25-2008, 03:16 PM
I got a rogue useing a repeater... what feats are most needed for a crossbow/repeater user?

The essentials are: Weapon Proficiency and Improved Critical

Next up are rate of fire feats: Rapid shot & Rapid Reload

Then there are the so/so generics: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization

Then there are the (I only have it because I must): Point Blank Shot, Mobility

Then you have the nice to have but hard to get stuff: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Many Shot (bows only), Shot on the Run

You should definately take the essentials, the rate of fire feats are highly recomended and the rest are really about how dedicated you want to be to that weapon.

roadkill525
03-25-2008, 06:24 PM
The essentials are: Weapon Proficiency and Improved Critical

Next up are rate of fire feats: Rapid shot & Rapid Reload

Then there are the so/so generics: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization

Then there are the (I only have it because I must): Point Blank Shot, Mobility

Then you have the nice to have but hard to get stuff: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Many Shot (bows only), Shot on the Run

You should definately take the essentials, the rate of fire feats are highly recomended and the rest are really about how dedicated you want to be to that weapon.

ah this really helps... so far the only info I had gotten was for bows and figured there had to be something diferent. good to know manyshot doesn't work. but what is mobility needed for?

so far I have the prof feat pointblank shot(+1 to attack when within sneakattack range so I still see it as a good feat) percice shot and rapid reload. think I'ma hafta skil the so so generics, am takin 2 levels of fighter to help with feats but is not enough to get weapon spec.

I plan to take improved percice shot when I can... and had not thought about taking imp crit. I want to take resiliance too to help me get thru traps that have boxes on the far side I think that will use up all my feats

Quartzite
03-26-2008, 01:56 AM
Does Imp Crit: Piercing effect ranged weapons? They ARE piercing but do they count for the purpose of feats? Or do you have to take Imp Crit: Ranged?

Uska
03-26-2008, 01:59 AM
Does Imp Crit: Piercing effect ranged weapons? They ARE piercing but do they count for the purpose of feats? Or do you have to take Imp Crit: Ranged?

It takes ranged.

gametap
03-27-2008, 09:49 AM
I'm finding that Melees are doing quite a bit more damage than me at level 3. I'm using a +2 Heavy Repeater. Did a few elites last night and the biggest problem is hitting them.

Halfling, 21 Dex. +9 to hit. Rogue/Fighter/Fighter.

On normal I blow through stuff though like they were paper, but you can do that on most any character.

Bombalo
03-27-2008, 10:04 AM
The biggest problem is if your on elite and your not a totally tricked out build with all buffs hitting on elite is tough work. Esp with ranged weapons. The biggest issue there is the monsters HP's go up dramatically. When high hp's are in order that is where the ranged builds start to lag behind.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-27-2008, 10:20 AM
I'm finding that Melees are doing quite a bit more damage than me at level 3. I'm using a +2 Heavy Repeater. Did a few elites last night and the biggest problem is hitting them.

Halfling, 21 Dex. +9 to hit. Rogue/Fighter/Fighter.

On normal I blow through stuff though like they were paper, but you can do that on most any character.

You may be moving a lot......-4 to hit when moving I think.
On Normal, you should rule. Elite is another story. try using those Goldskuttle reptilian bane crossbow bolts, and you should see a huge difference.

binnsr
03-27-2008, 10:31 AM
The essentials are: Weapon Proficiency and Improved Critical

Next up are rate of fire feats: Rapid shot & Rapid Reload

Then there are the so/so generics: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization

Then there are the (I only have it because I must): Point Blank Shot, Dodge, Mobility

Then you have the nice to have but hard to get stuff: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Many Shot (bows only), Shot on the Run

You should definately take the essentials, the rate of fire feats are highly recomended and the rest are really about how dedicated you want to be to that weapon.

You forgot Dodge in the 'only because i have to have them' category

to roadkill525: you need dodge, point blank shot and mobility to take Shot on the Run - which does away with the -4 to-hit when moving penalty

binnsr
03-27-2008, 10:39 AM
I'm currently leveling a heavy repeater build - it started out before Mod6 as a Great Crossbow build, but the lack of damage pre-mod6 was disappointing, so I switched for heavy repeater. She's 14Ftr/2Rgr (currently 5ftr/2rgr) and accumulating a decent set of heavy repeaters, making the switch back to great crossbows less and less likely..

As she's leveled, I've noticed that I've shifted from dominating the kill counts to softening them up enough that by the time they close with the party, they're only 1 or 2 hits from the melees from death - so I don't lead the kill counts, but rarely does anyone take serious injury either.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-27-2008, 10:47 AM
I'm currently leveling a heavy repeater build - it started out before Mod6 as a Great Crossbow build, but the lack of damage pre-mod6 was disappointing, so I switched for heavy repeater. She's 14Ftr/2Rgr (currently 5ftr/2rgr) and accumulating a decent set of heavy repeaters, making the switch back to great crossbows less and less likely..

As she's leveled, I've noticed that I've shifted from dominating the kill counts to softening them up enough that by the time they close with the party, they're only 1 or 2 hits from the melees from death - so I don't lead the kill counts, but rarely does anyone take serious injury either.

That's something I noticed with repeaters....whack, whack, whack.......one hit from death....long reload time...and someone else gets the kill. :(

gametap
03-27-2008, 04:32 PM
That's something I noticed with repeaters....whack, whack, whack.......one hit from death....long reload time...and someone else gets the kill. :(

Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot make it really quick reloading time. Range is nice too. Sucks in close situations though. I think when I get enough feats to get the -4 penalty to moving taken away it'll be a lot nicer.


What do you think the class setup should be for the hand cannon build?

I thought about 2 fighter and the rest rogue to keep up with sneak attack. You can get a lot of damage with it when mobs backs are turned, but then I was thinking about 2 fighter and the rest ranger for the spells and the BaB, along with a few free feats in there.

Maybe 2 Fighter, 2 rogue (for evasion) and the rest ranger?

Geonis
03-28-2008, 02:18 AM
I am currently leveling a Repeater build, it's kind of odd and is actually an attempt to make use of Halfling Dragonmarks.

He is 8 Ranger/2 Fighter/1 Rogue, will end up 13/2/1.

Most people will tell you not to take Ranger with a xbow, but for this build there ends up being some very useful synergy:

1-Ranger feats free up a few for Dragonmarks

2-Ranger skill points let me keep up Rogue skills so I have some secondary usefulness

3-Rangers get +% cure enhancements to help with the DMs

4-A few very useful spells

5-With one feat (Weapon Finesse) I am a passable melee combatant

6-(One I don't think many thought of) Ram's Might adds to xbow damage!!!!!!


This build is working out spectacularly so far, including some elite runs, and some forays into Gianthold at starting at level 9.

(At level 9, I was unable to find the Cabal trap, but also only had regular Heroism and Search +7 goggles, at level 10 with Search +10 goggles and the one extra skill point, I can find it no problem on normal)

I imagine you could sub in the Great Crossbow for repeater without changing any other part of the build.


For those finding themselves falling behind in Elite, just follow the melees example, go with Puncturing.

Now, Wounding of Puncturing can be real rough to find, but Keen of Puncturing (ML:6) can be found relatively easy (bought mine of the AH for 2200pp), once Imp Crit is picked up, all kinds of special things can be tossed on the front.

My current combo (which is kind of ridiculous to watch) is a Cursespewing Light Repeater of Puncturing, coupled with Mummy Wrappings. It is fun to watch a mob come running at you, get cursed, hit you once, and go running away in fear. :D


This character is not going to be leading kill counts very often, but I am almost always in the second tier. Combine that with disarming all the traps and throwing the occasional Heal (<-Note capitalised, because it's the Heal spell), and you have an amazingly well rounded character with great survivability.


PS

I have noticed that on the repeater, Rapid Shot increases shots per minute more than Rapid Reload.

gametap
03-28-2008, 09:18 AM
I have noticed that on the repeater, Rapid Shot increases shots per minute more than Rapid Reload.

Use both feats and they stack ;)

roadkill525
03-28-2008, 09:28 AM
I am currently leveling a Repeater build, it's kind of odd and is actually an attempt to make use of Halfling Dragonmarks.

He is 8 Ranger/2 Fighter/1 Rogue, will end up 13/2/1.

Most people will tell you not to take Ranger with a xbow, but for this build there ends up being some very useful synergy:

1-Ranger feats free up a few for Dragonmarks

2-Ranger skill points let me keep up Rogue skills so I have some secondary usefulness

3-Rangers get +% cure enhancements to help with the DMs

4-A few very useful spells

5-With one feat (Weapon Finesse) I am a passable melee combatant

6-(One I don't think many thought of) Ram's Might adds to xbow damage!!!!!!


This build is working out spectacularly so far, including some elite runs, and some forays into Gianthold at starting at level 9.

(At level 9, I was unable to find the Cabal trap, but also only had regular Heroism and Search +7 goggles, at level 10 with Search +10 goggles and the one extra skill point, I can find it no problem on normal)

I imagine you could sub in the Great Crossbow for repeater without changing any other part of the build.


For those finding themselves falling behind in Elite, just follow the melees example, go with Puncturing.

Now, Wounding of Puncturing can be real rough to find, but Keen of Puncturing (ML:6) can be found relatively easy (bought mine of the AH for 2200pp), once Imp Crit is picked up, all kinds of special things can be tossed on the front.

My current combo (which is kind of ridiculous to watch) is a Cursespewing Light Repeater of Puncturing, coupled with Mummy Wrappings. It is fun to watch a mob come running at you, get cursed, hit you once, and go running away in fear. :D


This character is not going to be leading kill counts very often, but I am almost always in the second tier. Combine that with disarming all the traps and throwing the occasional Heal (<-Note capitalised, because it's the Heal spell), and you have an amazingly well rounded character with great survivability.


PS

I have noticed that on the repeater, Rapid Shot increases shots per minute more than Rapid Reload.

if that last part is true I might have to use my free feat respec to swap em. lvl 9 seamin pretty far away at this point lol.

binnsr
03-28-2008, 10:43 AM
I have noticed that on the repeater, Rapid Shot increases shots per minute more than Rapid Reload.


if that last part is true I might have to use my free feat respec to swap em. lvl 9 seamin pretty far away at this point lol.

Rapid Shot has always made repeaters fire faster. Rapid Reload decreases the amount of time needed to reload a crossbow/repeater.

Until Mod6, though, Rapid Reload didn't actually work with Repeaters, just with light, heavy and great crossbows.

The problem with both of them helping is that now you need 3 feats (4 if you count improved crit) to optimize your repeater build.


Also, I have a question of my own that I just thought of-- Does precise shot / improved precise shot work with repeaters? My girl is set to take Precise Shot as one of her lvl8 feats and I had just assumed that it worked with crossbows, but have never seen verification ...

xealot7
03-28-2008, 10:49 AM
I have a 15 Fighter/1Paladin that uses Greatcrossbows and has Imp Crit Ranged. My dex is only 22 but with the 15-20 Crit range, banishers of shattermantle and smiters with elemental damage, not to mention the Wounding of Puncturing, most everything can be killed or severely weakened before it reaches you. My character is a DPS build and still loves this. I've even contemplated changing a few more feats out to pick up Rapid Reload/Rapid Shot. I just wish Bow str applied to Greatcrossbows...