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Angelus_dead
03-24-2008, 06:04 PM
As listed in the WDA (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=141027), rogues are getting a new enhancement to fight Constructs. The concept is nice: rogues are normally weak against constructs due to sneak attack immunity, rogues have some anti-machine skills in the form of Disable Device, therefore rogues could use that to battle constructs. But as written, it's not good enough to take.

Rogue Wrack Construct I: +1d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 2 total AP
Rogue Wrack Construct II: +3d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 4 total AP
Rogue Wrack Construct III: +5d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 6 total AP

Here's a rule of thumb: Minor benefit + Short Cooldown = Recipe for Failure. Let's cut to the chase and look at the single situation in DDO where you want to do the most hitpoint damage to constructs: Phase 1 of the Shroud. It takes prehaps 45 sec to kill one portal, meaning a rogue has the time to use Wrack Construct about 5 times. That's +17 damage from tier 1, or +87 damage from tier 3. And these portals have unknown thousands of hitpoints.

Compare it against Ranger Favored Damage I, another enhancement that grants extra damage against a limited category of enemy. In 8 sec a typical rogue with a single weapon can attack 14 times, meaning Favored Damage I would give +14 against Constructs (if he could train it). (And if the construct isn't crit immune, there's even more damage). In comparison Wrack Construct I gives +3.5 damage, and only if the user correctly presses the icon every 8 seconds. The downside of needing to hammer an icon on a short interval should not be underestimated. Plus, of course, Wrack Construct effectively costs more AP, because not all rogues will have Disable Device I already.

Here is a long list of alternatives to the announced Wrack Construct enhancement. I like choices 4 or 5 best.

Option 1: Multiply the damage and cooldown by some number.
Tier I: +3d6 damage, 24 sec cooldown.
Tier II: +9d6 damage, 24 sec cooldown.
Tier III: +15d6 damage, 24 sec cooldown.

This would give the same overall DPS benefit as the current plan, but free the user from needing to hit the icon so often. I don't really think this amount of DPS is worth it, though.

Option 2: A per-hit bonus
Tier I: +1 damage against constructs that you flank, or that are denied dex AC bonus.
Tier II: +2 damage against constructs that you flank, or that are denied dex AC bonus.
Tier III: +3 damage against constructs that you flank, or that are denied dex AC bonus.


Option 3: A chance for sneaks
Tier I: Your attacks have a 10% chance of bypassing a construct's immunity to sneak attacks.
Tier II: Your attacks have a 19% chance of bypassing a construct's immunity to sneak attacks.
Tier III: Your attacks have a 28% chance of bypassing a construct's immunity to sneak attacks.

Many players will like this best, but I feel it is too situationally powerful, badly themed, and has too much syngery with sneak-damage / assasination bonuses. In terms of DPS it is nearly 4x as good as option 2, and over 13x as good as Wrack Construct as it was announced.


Option 4: A debuff
Tier I: You have learned to impair the functioning of machine creatures. When you damage a construct with an attack, it may suffer a -2 penalty to attacks, damage, AC, and saves. Fortitude save DC 14 + int mod negates. The effect lasts 15 seconds, and the target is immune to this effect for that duration, regardless of the result of the save.
Tier II: Penalty is -4, DC 16 + int mod
Tier III: Penalty is -6, DC 18 + int mod

This choice moves away from the hitpoint damage, making it useless to break portals in The Shroud. But it would be more helpful when fighting other constructs, as it makes them less dangerous and also easier to hit. Let's be realistic: generally when high-level parties fight golems they use Smiting weapons, so hitpoint damage is nearly irrelevant. This effect would remain useful regardless of if you're fighting constructs with damage or with smiting. Also, the fact that it is passive is a nice benefit for the player, who's freed of having to juggle another active icon. Notice that Warforged have better fort saves than other constructs, and will generally resist the debuff.


Option 5: A skill check
Tier I: When you damage a construct that is flanked or denied dex AC, there is a 5% chance you may add a Disable Device check to the damage.
Tier II: When you damage a construct that is flanked or denied dex AC, there is a 10% chance you may add a Disable Device check to the damage.
Tier III: When you damage a construct that is flanked or denied dex AC, there is a 20% chance you may add ac Disable Device check to the damage.

This choice has the fun result of encouraging rogues to equip a Disable Device skill item when attacking constructs.


As mentioned, I would prefer option 4 or 5. But anything's better than what was announced.

PS. Regardless of what else is done, Way of the Mechanic should suffice as an alternative to Skill Disable III for qualifying.

Eudimio
03-24-2008, 06:37 PM
Angelus, you really underestimated the uselessness of the enhancement.

Using dual Adoryn's Malice's a hasted rogue using 30% haste boost is attacking over 30 times in those 8 seconds. The average greater bane portion of that damage is over 300. The primary damage will vary, but for my rogue (completely buffed in the shroud raid) ,the total damage is well over 1000 in those 8 seconds. So are you saying I could add an average of 17.5 damage to that? That's an increase of nearly 2% for only 6 action points. Wow!

Angelus has an overly-complicated solution, as per usual. Why not just make it a flat 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 for each tier all-time? Most rogues would still have to debate whether that would be worth the APs or not.

Happy Hunting.

DNDJESS
03-24-2008, 10:00 PM
Angelus, you really underestimated the uselessness of the enhancement.

Using dual Adoryn's Malice's a hasted rogue using 30% haste boost is attacking over 30 times in those 8 seconds. The average greater bane portion of that damage is over 300. The primary damage will vary, but for my rogue (completely buffed in the shroud raid) ,the total damage is well over 1000 in those 8 seconds. So are you saying I could add an average of 17.5 damage to that? That's an increase of nearly 2% for only 6 action points. Wow!

Angelus has an overly-complicated solution, as per usual. Why not just make it a flat 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 for each tier all-time? Most rogues would still have to debate whether that would be worth the APs or not.

Happy Hunting.

I think you're forgetting one likely aspect of this ability - while you trigger the ability and wait for it to activate, you will not be attacking. Using the damage numbers you say you're getting, will it really be worth it to stop attacking for a couple seconds so you can do 17.5 damage?

Eudimio
03-24-2008, 11:05 PM
I think you're forgetting one likely aspect of this ability - while you trigger the ability and wait for it to activate, you will not be attacking. Using the damage numbers you say you're getting, will it really be worth it to stop attacking for a couple seconds so you can do 17.5 damage?

I didn't forget activation time, because I've never seen it activate. Any visible delay from activating this ability will absolutely lower your dps in comparison to not using it. But there's still a chance of zero delay. Either way, it's still useless.

Coldin
03-24-2008, 11:25 PM
I think you guys are reading how the enhancement works wrong. I don't think it's "Does xd6 damage per attack for 8 seconds", but rather "Activate to deal xd6 damage as part of an attack every 8 seconds."

Angelus_dead
03-24-2008, 11:27 PM
I think you guys are reading how the enhancement works wrong. I don't think it's "Does xd6 damage per attack for 8 seconds", but rather "Activate to deal xd6 damage as part of an attack every 8 seconds."
What makes you think someone read it wrong?

Inkblack
03-25-2008, 12:10 AM
I read it as a special attack, similar to cleave, stunning blow, trip, etc.

If it is just extra damage in a normal attack chain, I just don't see it being worthwhile. The cost is to expensive. If you get the damage for 4 seconds out of 8, or something like that, I might consider it. But I doubt it -- there are to many other good enhancements to waste AP's on limited opponents.

Ink

Xaxx
03-25-2008, 05:08 AM
so you want to make an enhancement equal to a core ranger class skill????

arent you one of these people who constantly moans about some enhancements being over the top... yet you wanna make one that hasnt even been tested yet into the equal of a core class skill.........talk about duplicity.

Strykersz
03-25-2008, 05:37 AM
so you want to make an enhancement equal to a core ranger class skill????

arent you one of these people who constantly moans about some enhancements being over the top... yet you wanna make one that hasnt even been tested yet into the equal of a core class skill.........talk about duplicity.

The Favored Damage I enhancement is a core class skill(and not an enhancement)? I could understand your indignation and outrage if he had, maybe, compared the enhancement to a maxed out Favored Enemy. He didn't. He compared it to 1 level of the enhancement, absent any of the bonuses granted by the feat itself. I think I'm just going to assume you misread and let you take it from here.

Serpent
03-25-2008, 06:38 AM
so you want to make an enhancement equal to a core ranger class skill????

arent you one of these people who constantly moans about some enhancements being over the top... yet you wanna make one that hasnt even been tested yet into the equal of a core class skill.........talk about duplicity.

Umm I believe Angelus has really only referred to Critical Rage for Barbarians being over the top, Which it is.

Are you saying the enhancement is good as it is proposed in the WDA, frankly it just looks like a waste of development time.

Deriaz
03-25-2008, 06:52 AM
frankly it just looks like a waste of development time.

I dunno, I like it. Probably going to be taking it on my Warforged Rogue (If I can ever level the poor little guy!). It looks really useful to me. Worth the cost, as well.

-D

Talcyndl
03-25-2008, 08:55 AM
I read the WDA as it being a one at a time special attack with an 8 second timer - akin to smite evil, trip, etc.

If that's the case, I don't like it for two reasons.

(1) It's very little damage for the cost - especially considering how situational it is.

(2) It adds more complexity to a class that already has to juggle a lot of functions, abilities, etc.

My suggestion is a simple enhancement line that permits an increasing percentage of your sneak attack damage against constructs. And then another line for undead. The cost could be 1, 2 and 4 and give 15, 25 and 40% damage. The cost and percentages could vary depending on play testing.

This would have several advantages.

(1) It's more in line with rogues' sneak attack approach. A rogue gets sneak attacks because they are able to pinpoint vulnerable spots when the enemy is distracted. They can thus do this continuously as long as they don't attract attention. With the new enhancement they have merely gained the knowledge of construct's (and undead's) vulnerable points. The underlying mechanism remains consistent.

(2) It is more straightforward and doesn't add (IMO) unnecessary complexity to the game. To use the current proposed attack it will be necessary to add it to already crowded shortcut bars (and an extra 10 doesn't help for those who don't feel like filling most of the screen up with bars). And as those who use smite are aware, one shot special attacks are inherently difficult to trigger.

(3) It's also got a basis in PnP. There is a weapon effect that permits sneak attack damage against undead (??and one for constructs as well??). Translating this to an enhancement seems appropriate.

Developers: Please consider changing this.

Aspenor
03-25-2008, 08:58 AM
I consider this a virtually worthless enhancement.

Maybe if they gave us one where we could sneak attack UNDEAD, which are like 50% of DDO, then we'd be talking.

And none of this "clickie activation" garbage.

Talcyndl
03-25-2008, 09:07 AM
And none of this "clickie activation" garbage.



QFT.

Borror0
03-25-2008, 09:15 AM
I read the WDA as it being a one at a time special attack with an 8 second timer - akin to smite evil, trip, etc.

If that's the case, I don't like it for two reasons.

(1) It's very little damage for the cost - especially considering how situational it is.

(2) It adds more complexity to a class that already has to juggle a lot of functions, abilities, etc.


I consider this a virtually worthless enhancement.

Maybe if they gave us one where we could sneak attack UNDEAD, which are like 50% of DDO, then we'd be talking.

And none of this "clickie activation" garbage.

What these guys said. :)

ahpook
03-25-2008, 09:37 AM
I dunno, I like it. Probably going to be taking it on my Warforged Rogue (If I can ever level the poor little guy!). It looks really useful to me. Worth the cost, as well.

I think you need to seriously consider the opinions here before wasting your action points. It is weak for the AP's and its invocation will not be worth the hassle or trying to find space on your hot bars.

Angelus, I could agree with options 3, 4, 5. Option 1 does not resolve the problem of YAC (yet another clickie) and option 2 is not enough damage to really be worth the cost.

Mad_Bombardier
03-25-2008, 10:30 AM
Just a side note: I'm also very confused as to why this has nothing to do with Way of the Mechanic. Seems a better fit for tha specialty. Maybe Way of the Mechanic + Wrack Construct could have a togglable stance as a synergy?

ahpook
03-25-2008, 10:38 AM
Just a side note: I'm also very confused as to why this has nothing to do with Way of the Mechanic. Seems a better fit for tha specialty. Maybe Way of the Mechanic + Wrack Construct could have a togglable stance as a synergy?
Sure would. I would even be content if the WoM II ability gave you 30 seconds of being able to sneak constructs (instead of the repair ability) and they dropped the wrack altogether.

Talcyndl
03-25-2008, 10:44 AM
Sure would. I would even be content if the WoM II ability gave you 30 seconds of being able to sneak constructs (instead of the repair ability) and they dropped the wrack altogether.

Personally, I'd prefer a simple percentage of sneak attack damage - without having to mess with another clicky, timed ability.

Especially, since in this case the timed aspect makes no sense. Either a rogue knows how to sneak attack constructs (and undead!!!) or he doesn't. If he does, the effect should apply to all sneak attacks. And the amount of training determines the percentage of normal sneak attack damage he does.

Mad_Bombardier
03-25-2008, 10:49 AM
Personally, I'd prefer a simple percentage of sneak attack damage - without having to mess with another clicky, timed ability.Someone already posted the suggestion, but why isn't Wrack Construct a special Fortification reducing attack (similar to sunder)? -25%, -50%, -75%. That still gives constructs a chance to block sneak attacks, but gives the rogue a small chance to

I suppose the problem lies in reduced fort being applied to all player's crits. Also lies in not differentiating Fortification and immunity (not sure if that's a problem, but could be). And lastly, in differentiating bewteen constructs and other crit immune creatures like undead.

GeneralDiomedes
03-25-2008, 10:55 AM
There are spells to render constructs and undead susceptible to sneak attacks, they should just add those.

As far as clickie damage goes, even though people complain (what else is new) about the manyshot timer mechanic, it works for DPS and gameplay. People don't feel annoyed, they feel incredibly powerful for 20 seconds. A 20 second burst actually has uses WRT bosses and big fights. A piddle of extra damage every 8 seconds has little use and just serves to annoy.

And to those who want always on extra damage against constructs, please take some Ranger levels.

Garund
03-25-2008, 11:01 AM
[QUOTE=Angelus_dead;1632564]As listed in the WDA (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=141027), rogues are getting a new enhancement to fight Constructs. The concept is nice: rogues are normally weak against constructs due to sneak attack immunity, rogues have some anti-machine skills in the form of Disable Device, therefore rogues could use that to battle constructs. But as written, it's not good enough to take.

Rogue Wrack Construct I: +1d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 1 total AP
Rogue Wrack Construct II: +3d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 2 total AP
Rogue Wrack Construct III: +5d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 3 total AP

Per the WDA you wrongly quoted, I've fixed it for you:D I can't believe everyong missed the AP costs and is crying doom and gloom over this. Yeesh, 6 AP to do more DPS to constructs....not that big of a deal breaker people.

Gar

dameron
03-25-2008, 11:29 AM
While you're messing around with sneak attacks, can you please make it so that held or helpless mobs take the sneak attack damage, even if they were aggroed on the rogue before being held or helpless?

Mad_Bombardier
03-25-2008, 11:35 AM
While you're messing around with sneak attacks please make it so that held or helpless mobs take the sneak attack damage, even if they were aggroed on the rogue before being held or helpless?Yeah, that'd be nice!

Angelus_dead
03-25-2008, 12:08 PM
Rogue Wrack Construct I: +1d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 1 total AP
Rogue Wrack Construct II: +3d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 2 total AP
Rogue Wrack Construct III: +5d6 damage on constructs, 8 sec cooldown, 3 total AP

Per the WDA you wrongly quoted, I've fixed it for you:D
I was correct. Tier I costs 2 total AP, when you add in the requirement to get Disable I first. Some rogues will be able to get Wrack Construct I for only 1 AP if they already have Disable I. However many rogues do not have Disable I in their builds, and far fewer have Disable II or III.

oronisi
03-25-2008, 12:47 PM
I consider this a virtually worthless enhancement.

Maybe if they gave us one where we could sneak attack UNDEAD, which are like 50% of DDO, then we'd be talking.

And none of this "clickie activation" garbage.

Gotta quote this because it's how I feel. Also, apply the same logic to the new stupid pally enhancements....get rid of the clickie activation garbage, make enhancements people might consider using.