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View Full Version : Potions as clickies - great change or not?



Shade
03-24-2008, 05:08 PM
NEW The following potions are now equipped with funnels so they can be used on afflicted friends: Potion of Fear Removal, Potion of Poison Neutralization, Potion of Blindness Removal, Potion of Curse Removal, Potion of Disease Removal, Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion. The new funnels are especially easy to use so raging barbarians should have no problems with them.
Here's a few great reasons why there chaining more potions into clickies to make the game more fun:
Remove Fear:
Ok you just got feared by that kobold shaman, good thing you have that potion. Drink it - you cannot do that you are feared (cannot use clickies while feared)
Remove Curse/Poison/Disease:
Ok your doing shroud and your new to phase 4 so you are not quite equiped with all the imunity items yet.. you got cursed by a bearded devil and poisoned and disease from the pit fiend - now luckily you saved and carry potions... Ok drink remove curse potoion - you cannot do that you have madstone rage... Ok wait 30 seconds, its gone, drink - uh oh 10 seconds on poison timer and 5 on disease - drink remove disease potion - you cannot do that, clicky timer is not up - you take strength damage, ok 6 secnds later - drink it, good.. Oh no, poison is at 5 seconds - cannot drink neutralize poison - you die.
Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion:
These are those great potions you get in tangleroot gorge.. Ok so your doing the slayers and collected a few of these things.. Running around, doing the slayers and you then need to use one, ok click.. animation going.. Interupted by getting tripped by a wolf.. No problem, try again.. oh interupted by getting tripped by a goblin , ok no problem, jump in water to try - cannot use clickes in water.. Ok try in mid air - interupted by animation fault.. Great.
Blindness Removal:
Ok so you got blinded in some dungeon, your running around like mad trying not to get hit searching for that remove blindness potion in your backpack.. Sweet you found it - click - doesn't work.. What happen? ok you grabbed a ledge or ladder since your blind so it wont work now, please wait 6 seconds.

Also please make water breathing potions like this, would be more fun to not be able to use those underwater.

....
Constructive feedback: The idea of potions with funnels has merits and surely some uses to certain players.. But giving all the problems it will cause I think it needs some serious thought and tech to make it work correctly and avoid all these issues.

maddmatt70
03-24-2008, 05:33 PM
For some reason they have decided to give clerics more work - I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. The most hideous example is your 12 man raid example. Lets just say in the future in a 12 man raid there is a condition that a pot could remove, but most players will not be able to protect against it then you get people constantly yelling out or typing the condition they have and the clerics having to remove that condition. Kind of annoying to say the least. These changes makes the game evermore cleric dependent which I think is a bad thing.

Sem34
03-24-2008, 05:35 PM
All this did was make these the same as the potions of remove paralysis… for me really don’t care (since I carry wands of these) but what I see happening is now on top of what the cleric/casters are carrying they have to carry potions to cure the ones that don’t even carry cure light wounds… heck I know of founders that still don’t carry their own pots.

I remember back when you got blinded/cursed/poisoned you where screwed if you did not come prepared for the quest. Let’s just make this game even more WoW friendly.

again really don't care still going to play the way I play...

Lifespawn
03-24-2008, 05:45 PM
clerics don't have to carry the extra pots if people don't take care of them selves with basic pots and stuff let them die and place them in your pocket.

Tough love does work....spread the "love"

Kire
03-24-2008, 05:49 PM
Here's a few great reasons why there chaining more potions into clickies to make the game more fun:
Remove Fear:
Ok you just got feared by that kobold shaman, good thing you have that potion. Drink it - you cannot do that you are feared (cannot use clickies while feared)
Remove Curse/Poison/Disease:
Ok your doing shroud and your new to phase 4 so you are not quite equiped with all the imunity items yet.. you got cursed by a bearded devil and poisoned and disease from the pit fiend - now luckily you saved and carry potions... Ok drink remove curse potoion - you cannot do that you have madstone rage... Ok wait 30 seconds, its gone, drink - uh oh 10 seconds on poison timer and 5 on disease - drink remove disease potion - you cannot do that, clicky timer is not up - you take strength damage, ok 6 secnds later - drink it, good.. Oh no, poison is at 5 seconds - cannot drink neutralize poison - you die.
Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion:
These are those great potions you get in tangleroot gorge.. Ok so your doing the slayers and collected a few of these things.. Running around, doing the slayers and you then need to use one, ok click.. animation going.. Interupted by getting tripped by a wolf.. No problem, try again.. oh interupted by getting tripped by a goblin , ok no problem, jump in water to try - cannot use clickes in water.. Ok try in mid air - interupted by animation fault.. Great.
Blindness Removal:
Ok so you got blinded in some dungeon, your running around like mad trying not to get hit searching for that remove blindness potion in your backpack.. Sweet you found it - click - doesn't work.. What happen? ok you grabbed a ledge or ladder since your blind so it wont work now, please wait 6 seconds.

Also please make water breathing potions like this, would be more fun to not be able to use those underwater.

....
Constructive feedback: The idea of potions with funnels has merits and surely some uses to certain players.. But giving all the problems it will cause I think it needs some serious thought and tech to make it work correctly and avoid all these issues.

Couple things:

You can use pots (even the clicky ones) when raged. in any form. They fixed that.

The blindness thing, You can't drink a pot on a ladder anyway, even when its not acting like a clicky.

Being tripped: You can't drink pots while being tripped. THIS MAKES SENSE. typically when you fall you hit your head correct? Ok. Your pots are in your backpack correct? So unless you fall on your face, Reach behind your back, grab the pot, and drink while on your stomach you cant drink it. you fall on your back you cant get into your pack. Stop zerging, kill the thing, drink the pot, move on.

The multipy Debuff scene: Poision Immun can be drank before hand and last quite some time. Get in the habit. Why drink remove curse before remove disease? Slow down and think about it. You're going to be standing there drinking pots. Better to take out the timed one first. Adjust.

Water Breathing Pots: You can use pots underwater for some strange reason (drinking liquid in liquid?) so doesnt change anything. Also you might want to spend 2k plat on AH and get a UA item.

OK thats everything.

You do know that these pots only look like the clickie animation. Really everything else is the same. Cept Cooldown.


For some reason they have decided to give clerics more work - I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. The most hideous example is your 12 man raid example. Lets just say in the future in a 12 man raid there is a condition that a pot could remove, but most players will not be able to protect against it then you get people constantly yelling out or typing the condition they have and the clerics having to remove that condition. Kind of annoying to say the least. These changes makes the game evermore cleric dependent which I think is a bad thing.

Uhm... How does this make more stress on cleric? If you PuG alot as a cleric then yeah, your going to run into groups that dont carry all the pots, but atleast now you won't have to waste SP on getting rid of stupid debuffs. You can do them with some-what in-expensive pots. If there was a condition that could not be protected against you as a cleric are going to have to heal it away anyway. These pots just let you do it faster. You can hit one person with a pot, then one with a spell, so on and so forth.

Any questions?

~Kire

Kire
03-24-2008, 05:52 PM
I remember back when you got blinded/cursed/poisoned you where screwed if you did not come prepared for the quest. Let’s just make this game even more WoW friendly.

again really don't care still going to play the way I play...

Heh isnt the main idea of DnD as a whole that you're party mates are supposed to help you? Well these funnel pots let them do that. It's alot faster then staying in place, waiting for a party mate to trade you with a pot, make sure they're in range, take the pot, open your inventory, and drink the pot, with teh same result.

~Kire

Arnya
03-24-2008, 05:53 PM
Remove fear pots have always worked while you are feared....

Talcyndl
03-24-2008, 05:58 PM
Remove fear pots have always worked while you are feared....

And is there any indication they will stop working with the addition of a funnel?

Not the way I read the Weekly notes.

Angelus_dead
03-24-2008, 06:07 PM
And is there any indication they will stop working with the addition of a funnel?

Not the way I read the Weekly notes.
As written, the notes don't say that. But based on previous changes to Lesser Restore potions, it is reasonable to guess that the way they "add a funnel" is redefining those potions to use the clicky code instead of the potion code.

Angelus_dead
03-24-2008, 06:09 PM
Couple things:
You can use pots (even the clicky ones) when raged. in any form. They fixed that.
Since it's not fixed on the live servers, and it's not mentioned as being fixed in the WDA, why do you say they fixed it?

Maybe you are getting confused by the difference between Barbarian Rage and other possible forms of rage. Madstone Rage does not currently obstruct your use of a Remove Blind potion, but in the future it might.

Invalid_86
03-24-2008, 06:09 PM
People actually use water breathing potions?

maddmatt70
03-24-2008, 06:16 PM
Couple things:

Uhm... How does this make more stress on cleric? If you PuG alot as a cleric then yeah, your going to run into groups that dont carry all the pots, but atleast now you won't have to waste SP on getting rid of stupid debuffs. You can do them with some-what in-expensive pots. If there was a condition that could not be protected against you as a cleric are going to have to heal it away anyway. These pots just let you do it faster. You can hit one person with a pot, then one with a spell, so on and so forth.

~Kire

You can't drink pots when madstone raged which for barbarians and fighters means the lesser restore fix didn't really help things and they are enlarging that existing pool of conditions which will require ever more cleric dependency. The cleric has to take account of the conditions other players have and remove these conditions during a battle- this doesn't promote mana effiiciency or general time efficiency for the situations where heal will fix the damage, but then there are the conditions which heal doesn't fix the condition the best example is remove curse. Picture this scenario the players are in part 2 with the red named devil who curses and makes it so they can't be healed when cursed - they want to have more hit points and dps so they would like to have madstone boots on, but if they do then they can't remove curse during the fight and the cleric has to take care of that condition or they die. Clerics always try to remove curse, but currently a player can drink a pot before a cleric even removes that curse which makes it so the players are less reliant on the cleric. Cleric reliance is not a good thing in my opinion because it leads to less diversity in play styles, character building, etc.

Shade
03-24-2008, 06:24 PM
You can use pots (even the clicky ones) when raged. in any form. They fixed that.

Yea no, they didn't. Not sure why I read the rest of your post since clearing you never tested this much but rather just trying to disagree for the sake of trolling, but ok.
While using the standard barbarian raged - yes there usuable - thats great, but wasn't a big deal because we already have the dismiss rage ability.
While madstone raged - no you cannot use clicky potions - and thats what my example said and an important one because you cannot dismiss madstone rage or even remove it by using a shrine. I believe the same applies to tensors transmformation - but will admit i have not tested that one (just a guess based on the fact tensors gives the same error message as madstone rage)

The animation issues I think are clear to players who have actaully use lesser restore potions often, but I will clarify it anyways:
The animation length is MUCH longer for clicky then drinking - about double the length, and as such is interupted much more often by things like being tripped/grabbing a ledge, etc. Regular potions can be interupted yes - but the chances are far lower of it happening.

QuantumFX
03-24-2008, 06:25 PM
Remove fear pots have always worked while you are feared....

But not mummy dispared.

Angelus_dead
03-24-2008, 06:29 PM
But not mummy dispared.
By adherence to the D&D rules, as well as the principles of game balance, characters shouldn't be able to drink potions when either Feared or Despaired, but teammates should be able to feed them potions in both those cases.

By the D&D rules, the only potions usable while feared are potions that produce a travel effect. (As a stretch, that could include Haste)

Kire
03-24-2008, 06:32 PM
You can't drink pots when madstone raged which for barbarians and fighters means the lesser restore fix didn't really help things and they are enlarging that existing pool of conditions which will require ever more cleric dependency. The cleric has to take account of the conditions other players have and remove these conditions during a battle- this doesn't promote mana effiiciency or general time efficiency for the situations where heal will fix the damage, but then there are the conditions which heal doesn't fix the condition the best example is remove curse. Picture this scenario the players are in part 2 with the red named devil who curses and makes it so they can't be healed when cursed - they want to have more hit points and dps so they would like to have madstone boots on, but if they do then they can't remove curse during the fight and the cleric has to take care of that condition or they die. Clerics always try to remove curse, but currently a player can drink a pot before a cleric even removes that curse which makes it so the players are less reliant on the cleric. Cleric reliance is not a good thing in my opinion because it leads to less diversity in play styles, character building, etc.

For Restoration: Erm.. You can use the pots on the fighters and barbs instead of mana...

Curse Removal: If they choose that they need madstone rage then DO NOT feel bad when they die because they cannot use a pot. Some players need to realise when certain buffs are appropriate and when you need to be more defensive. If they do not recognize these situations then they become ghosts. They'll learn.

~Kire

EDIT: also with being able to cast pots on party mates its making the spell available to other classes making it easier for the cleric because he/she is not the only with access to curing the afflicted person. SO the cleric can yell " hey <insert random class here> will you throw a <insert random infliction pot here> on the barbarian? he has madstone going.

Strykersz
03-24-2008, 06:32 PM
Remove fear pots have always worked while you are feared....

They won't after mod 7.

Kire
03-24-2008, 06:34 PM
Since it's not fixed on the live servers, and it's not mentioned as being fixed in the WDA, why do you say they fixed it?

Maybe you are getting confused by the difference between Barbarian Rage and other possible forms of rage. Madstone Rage does not currently obstruct your use of a Remove Blind potion, but in the future it might.

Ah i forgot that madstone rage is a different type in the coding.

Well as i said above, These tanks need to learn when and when not to use certain clickies, items, and skills. Do i occasionally use madstone when i shouldn't? yes. Do i sometimes where my madstone boots in battle when i know i may need to cast a heal scroll or drink a pot? Yes. But these are normally by accident and if people continue to not realize when certain things are appropriate they will continue to die and i will feel none the worse about it, even if im playing a cleric.

~Kire

Kire
03-24-2008, 06:35 PM
They won't after mod 7.

It says this in the release notes?

~Kire

Kire
03-24-2008, 06:42 PM
Yea no, they didn't. Not sure why I read the rest of your post since clearing you never tested this much but rather just trying to disagree for the sake of trolling, but ok.
While using the standard barbarian raged - yes there usuable - thats great, but wasn't a big deal because we already have the dismiss rage ability.
While madstone raged - no you cannot use clicky potions - and thats what my example said and an important one because you cannot dismiss madstone rage or even remove it by using a shrine. I believe the same applies to tensors transmformation - but will admit i have not tested that one (just a guess based on the fact tensors gives the same error message as madstone rage)

The animation issues I think are clear to players who have actaully use lesser restore potions often, but I will clarify it anyways:
The animation length is MUCH longer for clicky then drinking - about double the length, and as such is interupted much more often by things like being tripped/grabbing a ledge, etc. Regular potions can be interupted yes - but the chances are far lower of it happening.

I am not trolling. But it's not right to throw up a bunch of hypothetical situations that can easily be avoided by teamwork and slowing down.

I was incorrect on using pots in madstone rage. I admit it. Sorry. But still, the tank should: A) Ask whether he would be alright to use madstone (maybe delving into what the mobs cast and whether the cleric will be ready to combat the debuffs with cures). B) Know what is coming and instead of depending on someone, be able to judge what would be more effective.

As far as "Not Testing" I never disagreed that you cannot do the things you said in your post.

You cannot drink a pot while on ladder if you happen to become blinded. Simply slow down, get off the ladder and drink your pot. Im not sure how adding a funnel to a pot changes this. Also why were you runnign around when you were blind? lol.

While tripped you cant drink pots now. While being tripped you cannot use clickies. So how does a pot becoming a clicky change this? In your example you were cursed. Ok well theres no point in continuing to try to use a pot when something is obviously hitting you. I know you have lower to hit but you're more likely to going to be able to kill teh dog/wolf/warg/hob/mob and drink the pot faster then hoping to save on a trip and not get interupted by getting hit. Common Sense.

Multiple Debuff: Again it sucks, but slowing down, pre-planning and thinking a little will easily get you through this. At low lvls i always drink a Posion Immun pot before every quest. it lasts 8 mins i think. Thats a good bit. Ask for one at the beggining of a quest or carry pots and chug one every 8 mins. You prolly chug haste pots every 30 sec, so this shouldnt be hard to remember. Now for getting rid of disease and curse at the same time: You can either wear a disease immun item (pre-planning) or figure which one is going to hurt you sooner. If you are not fighting then the disease is obviously going to hurt sooner, because curse is perm. Disease has a 1 min timer and if you pay attention to your buff list you should take it out pretty early all you need is the pots for it (Planning). Curse goes last ccuz its not changing, its not going to hurt more hten it already is. If you're in the middle of a fight you can either A) Fight through the pain, trying to get a disease removal off every 6 sec, B) run away and jump to get a curse removal off then try to kill the monsters before your disease hits.

Off course the offset to the multiple debuff is good saves.




~Kire

QuantumFX
03-24-2008, 06:47 PM
By adherence to the D&D rules, as well as the principles of game balance, characters shouldn't be able to drink potions when either Feared or Despaired, but teammates should be able to feed them potions in both those cases.

By the D&D rules, the only potions usable while feared are potions that produce a travel effect. (As a stretch, that could include Haste)

Just pointing out the one exception to the rule in DDO and why it can be useful to implement it as a clickie. (The rule in DDO being you can drink pots while feared. And despair is a fear effect.) No rant fuel there. :)

Strykersz
03-24-2008, 06:49 PM
It says this in the release notes?

~Kire

We can extrapolate fairly well based upon what the actual change made is likely to be. Does a remove fear clickie work while feared? Unless they create a special circumstance exception a la rage(which is, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, an incomplete special circumstance) then we can deduce that it is likely the potion will not work while feared. Personally, I feel it would be better to overreact now and make certain that this will be going in correctly than to have to wait 6 months - 1 year to get it fixed later.

Kire
03-24-2008, 06:54 PM
We can extrapolate fairly well based upon what the actual change made is likely to be. Does a remove fear clickie work while feared? Unless they create a special circumstance exception a la rage(which is, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, an incomplete special circumstance) then we can deduce that it is likely the potion will not work while feared. Personally, I feel it would be better to overreact now and make certain that this will be going in correctly than to have to wait 6 months - 1 year to get it fixed later.

heh well over-reacting is fun and all but normally doesnt end all that well.

There'll be teh flamers, saying how the devs shoulda caught this and how much they suck.

The Fanboi's who completely defend The devs, saying that they knew about thsi all along.

The trollers wholl call both teh fanboi's and the flamers idiots, because its just a game.

Fun Fun.

~Kire

Shade
03-24-2008, 08:06 PM
The fact is they did NOT think of any of this. Not once, but twice now - first when they did the change to the 2 potions, and again when they tried to fix 1 of the 2 potions for barbarians - so to think they have without mentioning it isn't over reacting - its obvious. They made 1 special circumstance that ignored the overall problem, infact they did it only for 1 of the 2 potions they broke for barbarians - remove paralysys still aren't even usable while raged - barbarian or madstone.

And all of these examples can be tested right now - just go buy a lesser restore potion. There is no reason to think any of the other ones changed will work any different.

Anyways the issue is very clear and plain. To those who don't see it or care about it - thats fine, but irrelevant to the topic.

Talcyndl
03-24-2008, 10:06 PM
There is no reason to think any of the other ones changed will work any different.


Considering they "fixed" (in their words) the Lesser Restore pots to work while raged (granted Madstone wasn't included in the fix), isn't that a "reason to think" the new funnel pots will be useable while raged and (hopefully - DEVS?) feared.

Emili
03-24-2008, 11:08 PM
For Restoration: Erm.. You can use the pots on the fighters and barbs instead of mana...

Curse Removal: If they choose that they need madstone rage then DO NOT feel bad when they die because they cannot use a pot. Some players need to realise when certain buffs are appropriate and when you need to be more defensive. If they do not recognize these situations then they become ghosts. They'll learn.

~Kire

EDIT: also with being able to cast pots on party mates its making the spell available to other classes making it easier for the cleric because he/she is not the only with access to curing the afflicted person. SO the cleric can yell " hey <insert random class here> will you throw a <insert random infliction pot here> on the barbarian? he has madstone going.

Except for the fact that madstone is not only offensive but also defensive... it's increased ac and HP aside from strength. Predicting a caster off in the corner is going to cast a debuff is a **** shoot I'd say... thus you're saying never use madstone except when there are only melee or ranging mob around. I can tell you many a time where I was madstoned.. not in trouble myself at all but others in the party died because I was madstoned and could not deliver a lesser or anything but res them after my madstone wore off.

The concept of funnel is a nice gesture on the devs part but the short-cut taken to do it is not exactly optimum approach to the feature.

Mad_Bombardier
03-25-2008, 09:59 AM
Good point Shade, I totally forgot about underwater potions... :(

Strakeln
03-25-2008, 11:13 AM
Here's a few great reasons why there chaining more potions into clickies to make the game more fun:
Remove Fear:
Ok you just got feared by that kobold shaman, good thing you have that potion. Drink it - you cannot do that you are feared (cannot use clickies while feared)
Remove Curse/Poison/Disease:
Ok your doing shroud and your new to phase 4 so you are not quite equiped with all the imunity items yet.. you got cursed by a bearded devil and poisoned and disease from the pit fiend - now luckily you saved and carry potions... Ok drink remove curse potoion - you cannot do that you have madstone rage... Ok wait 30 seconds, its gone, drink - uh oh 10 seconds on poison timer and 5 on disease - drink remove disease potion - you cannot do that, clicky timer is not up - you take strength damage, ok 6 secnds later - drink it, good.. Oh no, poison is at 5 seconds - cannot drink neutralize poison - you die.
Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion:
These are those great potions you get in tangleroot gorge.. Ok so your doing the slayers and collected a few of these things.. Running around, doing the slayers and you then need to use one, ok click.. animation going.. Interupted by getting tripped by a wolf.. No problem, try again.. oh interupted by getting tripped by a goblin , ok no problem, jump in water to try - cannot use clickes in water.. Ok try in mid air - interupted by animation fault.. Great.
Blindness Removal:
Ok so you got blinded in some dungeon, your running around like mad trying not to get hit searching for that remove blindness potion in your backpack.. Sweet you found it - click - doesn't work.. What happen? ok you grabbed a ledge or ladder since your blind so it wont work now, please wait 6 seconds.

Also please make water breathing potions like this, would be more fun to not be able to use those underwater.

....
Constructive feedback: The idea of potions with funnels has merits and surely some uses to certain players.. But giving all the problems it will cause I think it needs some serious thought and tech to make it work correctly and avoid all these issues.Very good points.

I really wish they'd take things like this into consideration before making changes. It really sucks waiting 6 months+ for them to finally fix the issues they introduced to something that was working perfectly fine.

tihocan
03-25-2008, 11:35 AM
The first obvious thing is we shouldn't have to use a funnel to drink a potion by ourselves, so the tech just shouldn't apply when we're using the potion on ourselves.
The second obvious thing is I have no idea how hard it would be to properly implement it. But I'll be happy to wait till mod.10 for a proper implementation if existing potions are not changed until then.

herculesatan
03-25-2008, 11:40 AM
One thing they still need to fix is the potion/madstone rage bug.

Madstone Rage prevents you from casting spells.

It shouldn't prevent you from drinking a pot, which it does.

Shade
03-25-2008, 04:01 PM
Considering they "fixed" (in their words) the Lesser Restore pots to work while raged (granted Madstone wasn't included in the fix), isn't that a "reason to think" the new funnel pots will be useable while raged and (hopefully - DEVS?) feared.

I agree. But (barbarian rage) was not one of the problems this topic is about. Madstone rage was the main example.

And considering they did NOT "fix" remove paralysys potions to be usuable while barbarian raged - whos to say they won't leave out half the potions in the next change?
I mean yea generaly for remove paralysys - who cares - but there is one situation where I wish I could use them;
Fighting cholthullz - in either black mausoleum or ghosts, he casts this permanent slow effect that cannot be displled or remove with haste - the only way to fix it is remove paralysys.

Talcyndl
03-25-2008, 05:05 PM
I agree. But (barbarian rage) was not one of the problems this topic is about. Madstone rage was the main example.

And considering they did NOT "fix" remove paralysys potions to be usuable while barbarian raged - whos to say they won't leave out half the potions in the next change?
I mean yea generaly for remove paralysys - who cares - but there is one situation where I wish I could use them;
Fighting cholthullz - in either black mausoleum or ghosts, he casts this permanent slow effect that cannot be displled or remove with haste - the only way to fix it is remove paralysys.

Right. But the point is there is little to indicate that the Developers intentionally designed things so that potions would be useable in fewer situations. Rather, it appears that it was an unintended bug that they weren't useable while raged.

I would certainly hope that the developers now recognize the issue. So absent an express statement to the contrary (or reports from Risia) I'm not going to assume the worst.

bobbryan2
03-25-2008, 06:24 PM
Right. But the point is there is little to indicate that the Developers intentionally designed things so that potions would be useable in fewer situations. Rather, it appears that it was an unintended bug that they weren't useable while raged.

I would certainly hope that the developers now recognize the issue. So absent an express statement to the contrary (or reports from Risia) I'm not going to assume the worst.

I will continue to believe that what we have now is what we will continue to have until, at the very least, a developer even acknowledges that they know potions do not work while madstone raged. Until they even admit that it's not working they way they intended, there's absolutely no indication that the people who need to know that potions don't work even know the problems.

Talcyndl
03-25-2008, 06:43 PM
I will continue to believe that what we have now is what we will continue to have until, at the very least, a developer even acknowledges that they know potions do not work while madstone raged. Until they even admit that it's not working they way they intended, there's absolutely no indication that the people who need to know that potions don't work even know the problems.

Since they just fixed the regular rage bug, they are obviously aware of the general problem.

bobbryan2
03-25-2008, 07:23 PM
Since they just fixed the regular rage bug, they are obviously aware of the general problem.

There's nothing obvious about it at all. In fact, fixing rage but not madstone implies to me that they chose not to fix it for madstone. (Simply because I find it very hard to believe they went through the trouble of fixing for regular rage and didn't even check it for other forms of rage). I find it hard to believe, not impossible.

My point is that when it's practically inexplicable why they didn't fix it for madstone at the same time, there's no guarantee how the next batch of potions will be fixed.

Again.. that's not even addressing the fact that all these potions will be drank more slowly. It'd be better if they kept potions exactly the same for when you drink it yourself, and only change the animations for when you affect others. I doubt most raged barbarians care if they're able to use lesser restore pots on other people.

Kire
03-25-2008, 08:02 PM
Snip


Again.. that's not even addressing the fact that all these potions will be drank more slowly. It'd be better if they kept potions exactly the same for when you drink it yourself, and only change the animations for when you affect others. I doubt most raged barbarians care if they're able to use lesser restore pots on other people.

The main problem is that this will take alot more coding and time. Right now they can simply take the code they made for Lesser Restore Pots and throw it on the potions that they want. If they wanted the animation to change depending ont he target they would have to code this (this would prolly be a good bit of code because of recognizing variables and what not) then search their code for all the potions they ahve used the previous code for and replace it. Then test it.

Also you said that the animation takes too long. I do believe it takes longer to uncap a potion, put a funnel on it and spill down a party mates throat then it does to simply uncap a potion and chug it.

Of course we could just make potions throwing weapons that do 1d8 damage and teh effect:

(To Party):"Hey ranger can you throw me a restoration?"
(Party) Mr.RangerMan: "Sure"

(Combat): You Receive lesser restoration debuff.
(Combat): You take 6 bludgeon damage from Potion.

(To Party): "Hm thats odd. Hey Mr.RangerMan, can you throw me a cure light pot?"
(Party) Mr.RangerMan: "/sigh. Fine."

(Combat): You heal 4 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 8 bludgeon damage from potion.

(To Party): "hey... hrm... can i have another?"
(Party) Mr.RangerMan: "Arg!! HERE!"

(Combat): You heal 4 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 6 bludgeon damage from potion.
(Combat): You heal 6 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 2 bludgeon damage from potion.
(Combat): You heal 2 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 8 bludgeon damage from potion.
(Combat): You heal 8 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 4 bludgeon damage from potion.

(To Party): "Uhm... Yeah im still down like 5 health. Heal please cleric?"


Wooh that took forever to type. Good fun though. And who wouldn't want to pelt some party members with potions?

~Kire

Strakeln
03-25-2008, 08:33 PM
Anyone seen the movie "Hot Fuzz"? Kire's idea made me think of that trash can that kept getting thrown into people's faces. :D

Shade
03-26-2008, 07:00 AM
There's nothing obvious about it at all. In fact, fixing rage but not madstone implies to me that they chose not to fix it for madstone. (Simply because I find it very hard to believe they went through the trouble of fixing for regular rage and didn't even check it for other forms of rage). I find it hard to believe, not impossible.


Well then you don't understand how coders think. Coders brains are very advanced, but do not work like regular humans you see - they see a problem as a bunch of lines of code we do not understand as something very easy to them. They change the code so that it all lines up right.. They test that line of code, and if it compiles and works- its shipped, QA takes a quick look at it and all is well. But to the actuall players - it turns out it's not so well as they thought see, they don't think that way. 1 problem gets 1 solution, thats it.

The fact the underlaying issue still remains is not there concern, the bug in the code was fixed and there job was complete. It's not hard for me to understand. I don't blame the coders who did the work - they did there job and did it well. It was someone else's job - the guy who has that job may not exist at turbine tho.

Shade
03-26-2008, 07:23 AM
Oh few other great things i've noticed:

Interupted while using a clicky potion = its gone. You didn't drink it, you didn't click it onto someone else, you got interupted by a ledge/tumble/water/trip/breeze of soft air hitting you... And its gone, where did it go? no one knows, but its gone, you dont have it anymore. Hope they make menonic potions clickies so we can remove feblemidn on other players, really won't mind losing a few majors due to animation issues there.

Interupted while drinking a potion - sure it might happen, very very rarely.. But you know what, the potion isn't gone, its still there, ready to drink.

Failed Mummy rot - currently a 3 second potion drink fix, curse, disease, lesser restore. Soon to be a 18 second ordeal (12 seconds cooldown, 2 second animation x3). Fun. Good thing we can use em on other players tho, because you can't open a trade window to give another player a curse or disease potion.. Oh wait you can, but thats harder then waiting 18 seconds right.
Imagine if you got poisoned too - you'd be looking at a good 25 seconds to fix that doosy!

But potions are overpowered, so they should be slowed down. Nerf em all!

Aspenor
03-26-2008, 07:57 AM
I'm going to have to agree that this probably wasn't necessary....who runs around without fear removal pots? They are like 50 gold....

Yaga_Nub
03-26-2008, 09:05 AM
I'm going to have to agree that this probably wasn't necessary....who runs around without fear removal pots? They are like 50 gold....

You would be surprised at the number of people that don't know that you can drink a fear removal pot while feared. I'm not talking about new people that just joined DDO. I'm talking about people with Founder under their names here in the forums that should know better. I'm talking about clerics that refuse to carry them because they can cast the spell.... right up until the time THEY are the ones that are feared.

People are just stupid for the most part. (and I'm not saying that I can't be at times either but my moments of stupidity usually involve running the wrong way in TS :) ).

Strakeln
03-26-2008, 09:41 AM
I'm going to have to agree that this probably wasn't necessary....who runs around without fear removal pots? They are like 50 gold....Unfortunately, a surprising number of people.

Edit: um, what Yaga said.

Aspenor
03-26-2008, 09:57 AM
Unfortunately, a surprising number of people.

Edit: um, what Yaga said.

So I see, after the recently posted threads RE: fear pots!!

:cool:

Kire
03-26-2008, 12:15 PM
Except for the fact that madstone is not only offensive but also defensive... it's increased ac and HP aside from strength. Predicting a caster off in the corner is going to cast a debuff is a **** shoot I'd say... thus you're saying never use madstone except when there are only melee or ranging mob around. I can tell you many a time where I was madstoned.. not in trouble myself at all but others in the party died because I was madstoned and could not deliver a lesser or anything but res them after my madstone wore off.

The concept of funnel is a nice gesture on the devs part but the short-cut taken to do it is not exactly optimum approach to the feature.



Well if you know there are alot of casters in a quest then you should know not to use madstone. Now if you choose to use madstone when theres a chance of getting debuffed tehn you can either live with the debuffs or at the beginning of the quest(s) Hand some pots to the cleric (or any other person that would be willign to do it) and say, hey, im Madstoning mind tossing these on me if i get debuffed?

These funnels are helping promote working together with your party mates. how is that bad?

~Kire

Mad_Bombardier
03-26-2008, 01:15 PM
These funnels are helping promote working together with your party mates. how is that bad?Funnels are great. But, they should NEVER get in the way of self use. Not being able to use potions when in a certain state or when underwater is a bad change.

A big part of the problem is that we already have "ally" target effects; they are called spells, wands, and clickies. Potions cost more, but we pay the premium for unrestricted use. Why should we be forced to revert to a non-self-sufficient playstyle just because of game bugs?

I do like the potions with funnels. They add a great deal to party cooperation. But, to take away self-sufficiency by changing potion implementation is no good.

Talcyndl
03-26-2008, 01:47 PM
Not being able to use potions when in a certain state or when underwater will be a bad change if the Dev's haven't learned from the whole lesser restore/rage issue.


Fixed it for you. ;)

And hoping that the Developers don't disappoint. :D

Cuchilo
05-26-2008, 07:09 PM
bump

captain1z
05-26-2008, 09:30 PM
People actually use water breathing potions?

My cleric carries 36 water breathing pots. I dont wear an UA item.

My helmet slot is a wizardy 6 helmet, my necklace is a wisdom +6 item

my ring slot is greater false life ring the other is a +4 charisma ring.

When I take any one of those items off, it costs me sp, hp or dv's.

so I threw everything I had on him that could be swapped in there and cause trouble in the bank until I find something better.


All my alts collect water breathing potions for him and keep 3 on them just incase I find someone ingroup with a broken UA item or just doesnt have one. I also have more water breathing wands than I will ever use.

Cyr
05-26-2008, 11:10 PM
Dumb change due to implementation...true I am only guessing that they did not fix the madstone bug, the removal of CE, the fear bug...hmm did i miss any? I for one know that very few people will bother using these potions on other people and I see some really annoying problems arising due to this. Again..if you they are going to change something make sure all the aspects are covered (see the mess quivers are).

Talcyndl
05-27-2008, 07:10 AM
Fixed it for you. ;)

And hoping that the Developers don't disappoint. :D

Although it appears they did disappoint. :(

So much for assuming they learned something from the rage/lesser restore pot bug.

Bunker
05-27-2008, 07:56 AM
DEVS:

THIS IS QUITE SIMPLE. YOU SHOULD BE MAKING ALL POTIONS WORK UNDER THE SAME COOL DOWN TIMER AND SAME USE ABILITY.

1. JUST LIKE CURE POTIONS, ANY OTHER SHOULD SHARE THE SAME COOL DOWN TIMER.
2. IF YOU CAN DRINK A CURE POTION INFRONT OF A BEHOLDER, THEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRINK ALL POTIONS INFRONT OF A BEHOLDER.
3. IF YOU CAN DRINK A CURE POTION WHILE FEARED, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRINK ALL POTIONS WHILE FEARED (I.E. FEAR REMOVAL POTIONS)
4. IF YOU CAN DRINK A CURE POTION UNDER WATER, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRINK ALL POTIONS UNDER WATER.


POTIONS, WANDS, SCROLLS, CASTABLE/CLICKIES, SPELLS, DRAGON MARKS

SOME OF THE ABOVE SHARE THE SAME COOL DOWN TIMERS, DO NOT MIX POTIONS WITH ANY OF THE ABOVE EXCEPT POTIONS. THEY SHOULD BE TREATED SEPARATE AS THEY HAVE BEEN UP UNTIL NOW.

FIX AND GET BACK

/CHEERS

P.S. The caps goes along with over 20 bug reports stating this in game over the past 2 months. And with those reports came no response, reply, or even stating that it was to be looked into. Devs: Please make it proper and get back with updated report.

Bunker
05-27-2008, 08:02 AM
These funnels are helping promote working together with your party mates. how is that bad?

~Kire

A part of teamwork is being able to handle yourself in situations. Yes, working together is great but there is a difference between working as a team and being dependant on a certain class. So taking away abilities and capabilities which every class should still have creates stress on certain classes which is NOT teamwork.

Angelus_dead
05-27-2008, 08:18 AM
3. IF YOU CAN DRINK A CURE POTION WHILE FEARED, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRINK ALL POTIONS WHILE FEARED (I.E. FEAR REMOVAL POTIONS)
Untrue.

The Fear spells are supposed to be effective Crowd Control that can temporarily remove the victim as a contributor to combat. Allowing players to dispel their own fear by pressing one button undermines the purpose of the spell. The effect of the spell isn't supposed to be merely a gear-check that deducts potions from your inventory- it's meant to be real CC. How would players feel if every time they Feared a monster it went back to fighting after 1/2 second of potion drinking?

From a logical standpoint, the only thing you should be able to do while feared is run or cower, so that would rule out any potion. However, as a generous present to the players, the designers could allow them to continue to drink Cure potions to stay alive if they want. But for gameplay, you shouldn't be able to cure your own fear.


So taking away abilities and capabilities which every class should still have creates stress on certain classes which is NOT teamwork.
Every class SHOULD NOT have the ability to cure themselves of fear effects. That's a feature of paladins.

Aspenor
05-27-2008, 08:21 AM
This seemed like as good a place as any...

So what do you guys think the new entry in the WDA re: Greater Heroism fear immunity is supposed to mean?


NEW The Greater Heroism Fear Immunity effect has been changed to a match other beneficial effects of the spell.

DasLurch
05-27-2008, 08:28 AM
I don't know if someone mentioned this, but my little pet peeve with the new clickie pots is that it always toggles off CE. That is a load of cow chips in my line of thinking. And now fighters get another annoying "debuff" to deal with. I mean so few fighters already carried pots to begin with, and now this will only encourage more of them not to. This is a bad trend that needs to stop.

Angelus_dead
05-27-2008, 08:30 AM
My cleric carries 36 water breathing pots. I dont wear an UA item.
so I threw everything I had on him that could be swapped in there and cause trouble in the bank until I find something better.
Cult of the Six, named end reward, belt of underwater action.

Strakeln
05-27-2008, 09:35 AM
This seemed like as good a place as any...

So what do you guys think the new entry in the WDA re: Greater Heroism fear immunity is supposed to mean?Very curious... :confused:

Rilen
05-27-2008, 10:16 AM
Just my .02 .. Remove Fear via potion .. effect applied to yourself and nearby party members ..

.. justified via the concept of "a funnel?".

Cmmon. Single use. Yourself or someone you target? ok I can see that.. but everyone nearby?

Thats not a funnel, thats an udder. :-)

Prefer to see pots be single target usage. Kinda agree with AD .. if you are feared, you should
be able to do almost nothing w/o assistance from a party member or until the effect wears off.

As for pots in general .. if there be funnels .. they should be available for all pots, or not at
all.

Bunker
05-27-2008, 12:39 PM
Untrue.

The Fear spells are supposed to be effective Crowd Control that can temporarily remove the victim as a contributor to combat. Allowing players to dispel their own fear by pressing one button undermines the purpose of the spell. The effect of the spell isn't supposed to be merely a gear-check that deducts potions from your inventory- it's meant to be real CC. How would players feel if every time they Feared a monster it went back to fighting after 1/2 second of potion drinking?

From a logical standpoint, the only thing you should be able to do while feared is run or cower, so that would rule out any potion. However, as a generous present to the players, the designers could allow them to continue to drink Cure potions to stay alive if they want. But for gameplay, you shouldn't be able to cure your own fear.


Every class SHOULD NOT have the ability to cure themselves of fear effects. That's a feature of paladins.

You are missing my point. Im stating that the game mechanic for all potions should be the same. "If" you were able to drink a potion while feared, you should still be able to unless the mechanic of the fear spell has changed.

It is like saying it is ok that you can't drink a potion while the antimagic field from a beholder is active. I know that isn't right.

I agree with you about fear to a point, but dont' get off topic, lets stay on the ball, and the ball right now is potions should be potions, not clickies/wands/castables.

Bunker
05-27-2008, 12:41 PM
As for pots in general .. if there be funnels .. they should be available for all pots, or not at
all.

/signed

That is what wands are for. I feel bad for all the players that wanted umd to use a wand that now there is a funnel for. Pots should be pots.

Ishturi
05-27-2008, 03:28 PM
/signed

That is what wands are for. I feel bad for all the players that wanted umd to use a wand that now there is a funnel for. Pots should be pots.

agreed.

Either that or buy the funnels separately, and in order to use them on an ally it takes 1 pot, 1 funnel, and within 5 feet.

That way It would still be true to the dnd rules, where you COULD poor a potion down an ally's throat if you wanted to.

However, I also believe that if you FAIL the disease DC as a FIGHTER, where is your con at? Same for poison. And at any rate, drink the one with the shortest hit-time first. Drinking remove curse first is never a good idea unless you have mummy rot.

Shade
01-23-2011, 04:05 AM
NEW The following potions are now equipped with funnels so they can be used on afflicted friends: Potion of Fear Removal, Potion of Poison Neutralization, Potion of Blindness Removal, Potion of Curse Removal, Potion of Disease Removal, Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion. The new funnels are especially easy to use so raging barbarians should have no problems with them.

About 3 years later..

Barbarians still can not use any of these "easy to use" potions while raged.

Great job Turbine. Really, Great job.

(Yes I know, use guild potions, but really shouldn't have to join a guild to freakin drink a potion)