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EightyFour
03-20-2008, 07:46 PM
I was thinking that rangers should get a feat called something like Improved Bow Strength that would maybe triple the damage you get from their strength stat, maybe make it a level 11 or 13 feat so that only rangers can get it. It might help bow rangers get back into the game? What does everyone else think about this idea, good or maybe something similar that could work?

paintedman
03-20-2008, 07:56 PM
At first blush it looks good, great extra damage per shot, but I think it does not cover enough bow(which usually are dex based) users. There have been a lot of good suggestions and this is a nice stab at it. I just don't think it covers enough.

-paintedman

EightyFour
03-21-2008, 03:37 AM
OK, well, I could say a good idea would be to call it "Bow Agility" you get the feat at a latter level, and it's 3 times the damage extra of your dex stat bonus. Because the ranger is so familiar with their bow and they are so agile, they do extra damage due to there well aimed shots. I would say that could work with bow rangers main stat being dex. Anyone think this is a better idea?

brshelton
03-21-2008, 03:47 AM
OK, well, I could say a good idea would be to call it "Bow Agility" you get the feat at a latter level, and it's 3 times the damage extra of your dex stat bonus. Because the ranger is so familiar with their bow and they are so agile, they do extra damage due to there well aimed shots. I would say that could work with bow rangers main stat being dex. Anyone think this is a better idea?

horrible idea

it would totally unbalance it

EightyFour
03-21-2008, 04:11 AM
horrible idea

it would totally unbalance it

Unbalance what? What is the relationship of balances that you speak of?

herzkos
03-21-2008, 05:01 AM
my ranger would love the str bonus tripling, but I actually think
it would be a weeee bit overpowered. I'd be doing +18 or +21 damage
per shot. with manyshot enabled, I really don't want to think about crit damage.

Yaga_Nub
03-21-2008, 07:08 AM
Rangers are fine for the most part. They just need to fix RoF and make MS a stance and we would be okay.

There is no need to make up new feats. I'm glad that they decided to rethink Superior TWF for the very reason they now understand they can damage the game with feats that are knee-jerk reactions to players demands/requests.

EightyFour
03-21-2008, 08:27 AM
Rangers are fine for the most part. They just need to fix RoF and make MS a stance and we would be okay.

There is no need to make up new feats. I'm glad that they decided to rethink Superior TWF for the very reason they now understand they can damage the game with feats that are knee-jerk reactions to players demands/requests.

Honestly I like your idea best, I was just thinking that Turbine well not change the RoF because they would have to re tune the animation and they may end up with problems as in it just looks funny. If they made MS a stance I think that would fix the problem all together, I just don't understand there cares and concerns so trying to come up with other alternatives because it seems that several people have suggested making MS a stance for awhile now, and I haven't seen anything happen with it, so I assume that is not going into the play book.

I think another concern is that they figure a ranged character makes up for less damage because they can do it at range, believe me, I don't agree.

EightyFour
03-21-2008, 08:30 AM
my ranger would love the str bonus tripling, but I actually think
it would be a weeee bit overpowered. I'd be doing +18 or +21 damage
per shot. with manyshot enabled, I really don't want to think about crit damage.

I was thinking of that also, the only thing I could come up with was turning off the feat every time you activate manyshot. That's the best I can think of.

Issip
03-21-2008, 09:36 AM
I also think rangers are in great shape. Ram's Might and now we get 4 arrows/shot for multishot - my ranger was my weakest toon, now my old 28 pt elven ranger from the pre-order days makes my lvl 16 dwarf fighter/barbarian seem like a chump, and they have similar gear.

Rangers are the trickiest toons to play I think, which makes them fun, but if you have good gear and play effectively they are awesome.

Three Cheers for Rangers!!!

negative
03-21-2008, 10:16 AM
I also think rangers are in great shape. Ram's Might and now we get 4 arrows/shot for multishot - my ranger was my weakest toon, now my old 28 pt elven ranger from the pre-order days makes my lvl 16 dwarf fighter/barbarian seem like a chump, and they have similar gear.

Rangers are the trickiest toons to play I think, which makes them fun, but if you have good gear and play effectively they are awesome.

Three Cheers for Rangers!!!

Please, you're really not helping. My "ranged" ranger almost exclusively melees.

Xalted_Vol
03-21-2008, 10:21 AM
I think the main problem is the Ranger who pulls before grp is set or aggros the wrong mob. I think another problem is chasing monsters down. I for one HATE chasing monsters all around while the Ranger jumps around and runs this drives me insane. I know someone will say work with the ranger blah blah but I am tired of telling Rangers to stop running around :)

Turial
03-21-2008, 10:34 AM
I think the main problem is the Ranger who pulls before grp is set or aggros the wrong mob. I think another problem is chasing monsters down. I for one HATE chasing monsters all around while the Ranger jumps around and runs this drives me insane. I know someone will say work with the ranger blah blah but I am tired of telling Rangers to stop running around :)

If Ranged ROF was the same as melee ROA like it is in pnp you wouldn't have to chase things nearly as much.

Melees draw aggro at the wrong times just as much as any other class (this is a player problem not a class problem).

Clerics are tired of telling melees to put down the axe and pull out a shield if they are getting torn appart and tried of telling them to carry pots for healing between fights.

Also with the silver bow and just plain +5 bows of pure good being easy to get I'm surprised more people dont carry a bow for times when a poor player goes running off with a mob chasing them. You would be surprised that it only takes a few shots from a bow to get aggro from that player rather then chasing them. And yes this is faster then running after the mob and trying to hit it but being unable to do so.

Also intimidate is an easy way to draw aggro off of running players. Melees should invest a little in it.

TFPAQ
03-21-2008, 10:40 AM
Rangers are fine for the most part. They just need to fix RoF and make MS a stance and we would be okay.

There is no need to make up new feats. I'm glad that they decided to rethink Superior TWF for the very reason they now understand they can damage the game with feats that are knee-jerk reactions to players demands/requests.

... MS shouldn't be any difference of a stance than power attack.

- T

TFPAQ
03-21-2008, 10:42 AM
I think the main problem is the Ranger who pulls before grp is set or aggros the wrong mob. I think another problem is chasing monsters down. I for one HATE chasing monsters all around while the Ranger jumps around and runs this drives me insane. I know someone will say work with the ranger blah blah but I am tired of telling Rangers to stop running around :)

... let the rangers who do that die....


- then throw their stone in the water or lava, or whatever is available....


P.S. I love my rangers by the way...

negative
03-21-2008, 11:23 AM
... let the rangers who do that die....


- then throw their stone in the water or lava, or whatever is available....


P.S. I love my rangers by the way...

What you'll probably find more than likely is that the Ranger didn't actually need your help killing the mob anyways. If I want the melee's to help me take down a mob I'm ranging, I'll switch to my paralyzer.

Impaqt
03-21-2008, 11:54 AM
Rangers who Kite Mobs away from the group are either Really good or Really bad. Neither needs you to go running off after the mob thats chasing him.

Doubling or even Tripling Bow Str enh would be a serious imbalance.... witha 3xCrit multiplier on bows and a decent str (Many have 24-26 str) your talking about an extra 24-72 points of damage PER Arrow lol.... I know rangers that already Crit for close to 100 points against their favorite enemies......

1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +8(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 34 x3 =102 Points on a Crit

Now add in Holy Damage and May SHot.....

With the Proposed Change
1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +24(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 50 x3 =150 Points on a Crit

No thanks...... Let em work on Tempest 2 and other more interesting things.

Milolyen
03-21-2008, 12:41 PM
I think the main problem is the Ranger who pulls before grp is set or aggros the wrong mob. I think another problem is chasing monsters down. I for one HATE chasing monsters all around while the Ranger jumps around and runs this drives me insane. I know someone will say work with the ranger blah blah but I am tired of telling Rangers to stop running around :)

First off ... don't chase them and fight the mobs the ranger is not kiting. Don't run after them to try and heal them either. If nothing else they have pulled the extra mobs off and died and you can deal with them your way then and it only costs one rezz and one heal for party recources where an extra 2 or 3 mobs in a big fight would have cost alot more. Then if they live they can also heal themselves up my ranger currently has 304hps 586 mana and with item I average 55-60 hp with my cure serious.


Rangers who Kite Mobs away from the group are either Really good or Really bad. Neither needs you to go running off after the mob thats chasing him.

Doubling or even Tripling Bow Str enh would be a serious imbalance.... witha 3xCrit multiplier on bows and a decent str (Many have 24-26 str) your talking about an extra 24-72 points of damage PER Arrow lol.... I know rangers that already Crit for close to 100 points against their favorite enemies......

1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +8(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 34 x3 =102 Points on a Crit

Now add in Holy Damage and May SHot.....

With the Proposed Change
1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +24(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 50 x3 =150 Points on a Crit

No thanks...... Let em work on Tempest 2 and other more interesting things.

With same ranger above useing +2 transmuting longbow of lawfull outsider bane using +3 house d returners I often get upto 150 base dmg crits on the pit fiend and with the + 1 w/p longbow using +3 returners I still see 100 + base dmg crits and you don't even wanna hear about the con dmg done by the w/p longbow with multishot and deepwood sniper lol.

Milolyen

Milolyen
03-21-2008, 12:41 PM
sorry for double post

Emili
03-21-2008, 01:19 PM
Rangers who Kite Mobs away from the group are either Really good or Really bad. Neither needs you to go running off after the mob thats chasing him.

Doubling or even Tripling Bow Str enh would be a serious imbalance.... witha 3xCrit multiplier on bows and a decent str (Many have 24-26 str) your talking about an extra 24-72 points of damage PER Arrow lol.... I know rangers that already Crit for close to 100 points against their favorite enemies......

1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +8(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 34 x3 =102 Points on a Crit

Now add in Holy Damage and May SHot.....

With the Proposed Change
1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +24(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 50 x3 =150 Points on a Crit

No thanks...... Let em work on Tempest 2 and other more interesting things.

Was going to say this is where my ranged ranger sits ... except it's 4 arrows under multi-shot thus 136 before adding in rage, bard songs or other buffs. Thus multi-shot is a killer. What would have been best is if rof was increased a little yet the rof under multi-shot remained the same as it does now.

Yaga_Nub
03-21-2008, 01:39 PM
sorry for double post

leave it to Milo......

EightyFour
03-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Rangers who Kite Mobs away from the group are either Really good or Really bad. Neither needs you to go running off after the mob thats chasing him.

Doubling or even Tripling Bow Str enh would be a serious imbalance.... witha 3xCrit multiplier on bows and a decent str (Many have 24-26 str) your talking about an extra 24-72 points of damage PER Arrow lol.... I know rangers that already Crit for close to 100 points against their favorite enemies......

1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +8(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 34 x3 =102 Points on a Crit

Now add in Holy Damage and May SHot.....

With the Proposed Change
1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +24(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 50 x3 =150 Points on a Crit

No thanks...... Let em work on Tempest 2 and other more interesting things.

OK, 5 damage from Silver Longbow + 3 arrows + (24STR) +7 + 4(Rams) = 19 x 3 + 57 points on a crit.
Every ranger is not an elf so you have to remove that, and favored enemy, it's not always like your fighting your favored enemy and even if you are you should be able to take it down faster.
So Holy Damage and Many shot, 6 damage from Holy + original 19 = 25 x 3 = 75 on a crit. (rolling a 19-20 90 times in a row(17-20) with silver bow)) = 225 damage per shot. However if you are not as lucky as some and you can't roll that many 20's in a row, and maybe roll one 20 out of three, that's 75 + 25 + 25 = 125 per shot or more likely 25 + 25 + 25 = 75 damage.

However I don't think there are many people carrying that many Holy arrows to constantly use manyshot.
I would say a times 3 damage from strength would work out,
5 damage(Silver LongBow) + 3 arrows + 21(24STR) + 4(Rams) = 33 x 3 = 99 points on a crit.
99 points damage with manyshot, with one crit and two hits = 165 points of damage, two crits = 231 points of damage, and with an amazing three crits an amazing 297 points of damage.

OK, maybe 3 times might be a bit much with manyshot, but i've said that. Turning it off when you turn on manyshot would be a good idea, but for a regular hit it seems fair.

OK, so how about x3 damage from strength or dexterity but doesn't apply to critical hits?
Or if everyone would think better of it, that maybe x3 is to much, what about x2?

Aesop
03-21-2008, 05:03 PM
84 why do you keep listing Ram's as +1 damage? its +2 Str and +2 damage
just curious

Aesop

Draiden
03-21-2008, 06:35 PM
Actually, something I was going to save for a new thread, but my current archer build is a barb14/ranger2. This build has bow strength, imp crit ranged, precision, imp precision, rapid shot, manyshot and BARBARIAN IMP CRIT RANGE... This nets the crit range at lvl 16 from 17-20 when raging and REALLY high str due to raging (especially all 3 rages). The fact that this is THE most bow dps build out there saddens me.

The fix? Give Rangers either enhancements or granted feats that increase their bow crit range (and don't say the Deepwoods Sniper is it- cuz that's not enough).

EightyFour
03-21-2008, 07:29 PM
84 why do you keep listing Ram's as +1 damage? its +2 Str and +2 damage
just curious

Aesop

I forgot that it does +2 damage due to size too, my mistake, I'll make the corrections.

QuantumFX
03-21-2008, 07:54 PM
Ranged Rangers don't need a feat to triple their bonus damage from STR. They need to stop treating STR as a dumpstat.

Make ranged combat work more like it's P&P counterpart and then you're going to see ranged combat become more than just a niche combat style.

EightyFour
03-21-2008, 09:44 PM
Ranged Rangers don't need a feat to triple their bonus damage from STR. They need to stop treating STR as a dumpstat.

Make ranged combat work more like it's P&P counterpart and then you're going to see ranged combat become more than just a niche combat style.

I don't think all rangers treat there STR as a dump stat, when I was thinking about this I was considering a ranger as have a STR of 34 or a dex of 34, even though I know there are ways to get it higher, I didn't take stats above 34 into consideration.

But I'm interested in knowing more details on what you think the P&P counterpart has that the DDO version does not have?
Are you speaking of the attack speed or something else?

Emili
03-21-2008, 10:47 PM
Ranged Rangers don't need a feat to triple their bonus damage from STR. They need to stop treating STR as a dumpstat.

Make ranged combat work more like it's P&P counterpart and then you're going to see ranged combat become more than just a niche combat style.



Actually I do not think many ranged rangers did treat it as a dump-stat but more as a secondary, I think the typical ranger built to actually range has a str of 22-28 str. While dex may be thier primary str is far from a dump stat like cha may typically is on many a fighter or barb. Then there is the real reason for aiming the high dex... that is the to-hit and the ac of a ranger. It's not surprising many ranged base rangers prior to last mod has an extreme high dex. With no - whatsoever - attack sequence bonus attached to ranged attack at all - base to-hit was it... then the added attraction of managing a decent AC out of dex was the other perk. Let's face it... if it were not for favored enemy plus a possible elf ranged enhancement rangers even the dex based ones would be rather thin in stat - much akin to pally in a sense... Str Dex Con and Wis all have some bearing on the class... the typical ranged build at lvl 16 looks like this before buffing Dex 30-36, Str 22-28, Con 18-24 then Wis 16-20 and they may level off Int 10 just to assure they're not tossing skill points out. Now if you went below 30 dex in the past you'd start to see miss, miss, miss rolls too often - thus countering really any real extra you'd get from a higher str...

gpk
03-21-2008, 11:08 PM
84 why do you keep listing Ram's as +1 damage? its +2 Str and +2 damage
just curious

Aesop

Actually Ram's Might is +2 str and +3 damage for my lev 15 ranger, +4 total damage for a 1 hander.

GlassCannon
03-22-2008, 12:18 AM
Actually I do not think many ranged rangers did treat it as a dump-stat but more as a secondary, I think the typical ranger built to actually range has a str of 22-28 str. While dex may be thier primary str is far from a dump stat like cha may typically is on many a fighter or barb. Then there is the real reason for aiming the high dex... that is the to-hit and the ac of a ranger. It's not surprising many ranged base rangers prior to last mod has an extreme high dex. With no - whatsoever - attack sequence bonus attached to ranged attack at all - base to-hit was it... then the added attraction of managing a decent AC out of dex was the other perk. Let's face it... if it were not for favored enemy plus a possible elf ranged enhancement rangers even the dex based ones would be rather thin in stat - much akin to pally in a sense... Str Dex Con and Wis all have some bearing on the class... the typical ranged build at lvl 16 looks like this before buffing Dex 30-36, Str 22-28, Con 18-24 then Wis 16-20 and they may level off Int 10 just to assure they're not tossing skill points out. Now if you went below 30 dex in the past you'd start to see miss, miss, miss rolls too often - thus countering really any real extra you'd get from a higher str...


My Ranged Rangers all started with 10-12 STR.

They max out at 38 DEX currently(that is, if they pull the incredibly elusive +3 DEX tome...), or 40 with Exceptional DEX 2. They all 3 use Repeaters and finesse weapons.

My Tempest build was structured for balanced STR, DEX and CON, so is closer to what you called 'normal', but will have a hard time hitting things in later life, much like tanks do.

My Main bbn1/rgr15 is 37 DEX currently(+2 tome on her, Shroud ingredients are too tedious to acquire), 20 STR(+6 item, Ram's Might, no tome), 16 CON(+4 item, +2 tome), 10 INT, 20 WIS(+5 item, +1 tome) 10 CHA... yeah, I messed it up a little. She took 37 seconds to build, from Character Generation screen to Feat Selection finalization.

EightyFour
03-22-2008, 01:15 AM
Actually Ram's Might is +2 str and +3 damage for my lev 15 ranger, +4 total damage for a 1 hander.

Yeah I noticed that, it's not what the spell says, but it seems to be what comes out of it, didn't know if it was a bug, something I missed, or what it was, so I left it out. But now that I see a second person has it also I can add that part in.

Wu_Jen
03-22-2008, 01:31 AM
Fix ranged ROF to = melee ROA. Problem fixed no trippling, quintupling etc needed.

If a ranged attacker pulls a MOB and starts kiting it around, I leave him/her to it. I figure if they pull it then they can deal with it. If I see their lifeless corpse on the ground a few minutes later then I will kill the mob, or at least attempt to, then take their stone to the nearest shrine.

Let them continue to do this time and time again. Either A) They will learn to let someone else get inital aggro or B) Their equipment will soon break and I won't have to worry about them pulling too much. :)

Smart ranged combatants know to either try to initally kill a MOB by manyshot etc, cripple/slowburst so that the mob can't get to them or curse/para and contain the MOB.

They will learn with enough deaths, theirs or the MOBs, otherwise they are playing under the influence :p and friends don't let friends play drunk~!

QuantumFX
03-22-2008, 02:19 AM
I don't think all rangers treat there STR as a dump stat, when I was thinking about this I was considering a ranger as have a STR of 34 or a dex of 34, even though I know there are ways to get it higher, I didn't take stats above 34 into consideration.

But I'm interested in knowing more details on what you think the P&P counterpart has that the DDO version does not have?
Are you speaking of the attack speed or something else?

Most of the "Ranged Ranger" builds that wind up in the ranger forums wind up with the "Don't use STR as a dumpstat" suggestions right off the bat. (FYI: I think both DEX/Finesse and STR rangers have their places in DDO. :) )

As to what I see as different between DDO and P&P: Attack speed and bad implementation of the feats.

I have a ranger that hits 36STR and 30 DEX and the crits from a silver longbow are just amazing. (average 122pts of crit damage on the Pit Fiend before the holy damage.) From a base 1d10 weapon that's just fine for the damage output per strike. The problem is that if we're standing still we should be able to do it WAY more often than we do now.

Here's my take from the thread in the ranger forums. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1624160&postcount=45)

My version of manyshot is based on my P&P group's implementation of manyshot though. We think the "standard action" is actually an "attack standard action" otherwise there's no benefit. Though we make loading a manyshot a move action unless the archer has quickdraw.

EightyFour
03-22-2008, 03:20 AM
Most of the "Ranged Ranger" builds that wind up in the ranger forums wind up with the "Don't use STR as a dumpstat" suggestions right off the bat. (FYI: I think both DEX/Finesse and STR rangers have their places in DDO. :) )

As to what I see as different between DDO and P&P: Attack speed and bad implementation of the feats.

I have a ranger that hits 36STR and 30 DEX and the crits from a silver longbow are just amazing. (average 122pts of crit damage on the Pit Fiend before the holy damage.) From a base 1d10 weapon that's just fine for the damage output per strike. The problem is that if we're standing still we should be able to do it WAY more often than we do now.

Here's my take from the thread in the ranger forums. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1624160&postcount=45)

My version of manyshot is based on my P&P group's implementation of manyshot though. We think the "standard action" is actually an "attack standard action" otherwise there's no benefit. Though we make loading a manyshot a move action unless the archer has quickdraw.

I think that in the post you made on the ranger forums makes a lot of sense. I think that I would be happier if the animations were faster to equal melee attack animations. Also the manyshot and pecise shot I wouldn't mind those changes.

However the Spring Attack and Shot on the run points I would disagree with, not because there bad ideas. They are good idea's and would work very well, but I think they would only have worked if that's how it was on opening day. To have everyone take Shot on the Run or Spring Attack just to play how they do now would be seen as the developers coming out with a huge nerf bat and I think we would lose a lot of players. And we would lose them because I don't think people like large changes like that. I believe when they changed the enhancements line people freaked out, but some adapted, new players came, and some got used to it. But we took a hit in player population, I think something like that would be a even bigger hit, and those players that we kept from the enhancement line change might decide that it's to much and take off. Sorry to say but this game depends on players to pay for the changes and updates. So as to your last point I disagree with those changes.

Wu_Jen
03-22-2008, 04:18 AM
There used to be a ranged power attack. It was even in the compendium for a bit. Don't know why it was never added as a feat. That would help a bit as well. Same as power attack -5 to hit and +5 dmg for ranged attacks.

I agree though, I would like to see manyshot get changed to more closely resemble its PnP counterpart. I.e. make it a stance instead of the every 2 min thing it is now.

QuantumFX
03-22-2008, 04:39 AM
However the Spring Attack and Shot on the run points I would disagree with, not because there bad ideas. They are good idea's and would work very well, but I think they would only have worked if that's how it was on opening day. To have everyone take Shot on the Run or Spring Attack just to play how they do now would be seen as the developers coming out with a huge nerf bat and I think we would lose a lot of players. And we would lose them because I don't think people like large changes like that. I believe when they changed the enhancements line people freaked out, but some adapted, new players came, and some got used to it. But we took a hit in player population, I think something like that would be a even bigger hit, and those players that we kept from the enhancement line change might decide that it's to much and take off. Sorry to say but this game depends on players to pay for the changes and updates. So as to your last point I disagree with those changes.

Spring Attack/SotR already slow down your number of attacks (the people who use it to get "more attacks" are actually breaking the animation chain to switch from the slow animations to a more reasonable speed. You don't need SA to do this though.) the major difference is that your running speed will slow down during the attack animation. For running up and beating on something it won't make a difference. Turbine would still have to fix the issues that they have with running foes to make it a viable feat chain for chasing down baddies. (IMHO I think the issue is in the order that the server calculates things.) They'll also have an excuse to ditch the unreasonable +300% striding items that mobs have.

Zuldar
03-22-2008, 06:02 AM
Three times the damage would be a little extreme. Perhaps 1.5 times wouldn't be unreasonable, seeing as it's a two-handed weapon.

Really though, bow damage isn't the problem, it's the attack speed. The solution would be to have manyshot work as intended in the PH.

The way it should work is as a toggle, providing additional arrows based on your BAB, and a decreased to-hit based on the number of arrows fired. This is especially true seeing as manyshot is supposed to be a standard action, meaning that you should be able to move your full movement speed and still fire your alloted arrows. Though seeing as DDO is real time that becomes slightly less relevant in practice though the spirit of the feat remains.

Another alternative would be to turn rapid shot into both a passive and an active, the passive providing the speed boost, and the active working as a toggle ala PH by providing two arrows both at -2 to strike.

A last option would be to allow a ranged character to quickly (key word there) fire off their alloted attacks in a row with a slight reload time between volleys. The reload animation could also be used when shooting and moving at the same time to prevent people from skipping it, though the shot on the run feat could be used to eliminate or reduce the animation while moving.

EightyFour
03-22-2008, 03:08 PM
There used to be a ranged power attack. It was even in the compendium for a bit. Don't know why it was never added as a feat. That would help a bit as well. Same as power attack -5 to hit and +5 dmg for ranged attacks.

I agree though, I would like to see manyshot get changed to more closely resemble its PnP counterpart. I.e. make it a stance instead of the every 2 min thing it is now.

I think a bow power attack is a reasonable idea as long as the animations are sped up.

It's amazing to me how many people think manyshot should be a stance. It makes me think that there might be some kind of programming issue that we don't know about that prevents Turbine from doing it.

EightyFour
03-22-2008, 03:24 PM
Spring Attack/SotR already slow down your number of attacks (the people who use it to get "more attacks" are actually breaking the animation chain to switch from the slow animations to a more reasonable speed. You don't need SA to do this though.) the major difference is that your running speed will slow down during the attack animation. For running up and beating on something it won't make a difference. Turbine would still have to fix the issues that they have with running foes to make it a viable feat chain for chasing down baddies. (IMHO I think the issue is in the order that the server calculates things.) They'll also have an excuse to ditch the unreasonable +300% striding items that mobs have.

Well it doesn't sound as bad as I thought the first time I read it, however I still disagree, and all my melee's have Spring Attack or Shot of the Run. The reason I disagree is because you are right, the mob's would have to go back to the way they were before they were "improved" that way we wouldn't have the glitch where you are bumping into the mob's butt, but unable to hit it. I personally hate running mob's, why can't I run and become invunerable to attack? But to far off the subject here, I guess it could be a good idea, but I'm just looking at changing one thing and hoping it doesn't effect to many others. Changing mob's back and adding in the new combat way would be a bigger change than I'm asking for personally. The one thing it would do is make SA and SotR a lot more valuable. I'm either way on this one.

EightyFour
03-22-2008, 03:32 PM
At least one thing I'm hearing here is that the animations need to be re-keyed to be faster, does anyone disagree with that?

Draiden
03-22-2008, 03:32 PM
I think a bow power attack is a reasonable idea as long as the animations are sped up.

It's amazing to me how many people think manyshot should be a stance. It makes me think that there might be some kind of programming issue that we don't know about that prevents Turbine from doing it.

No kidding! For 20 seconds, a Ranger can put out just as much dps as a melee... then he/she needs to wait another 1:40 to be useful again. Imagine this for the melee types... you hit your "okay, I'm going to swing my sword for a bit" button, and you have 20 seconds to do so. Then, for whatever reason (your arms get tired, or whatever), you can only get one attack per second-and-a-half. Then, 1:40 later, you can melee full speed again. *sigh*

More ppl would play ranged-type char's, and it could be a TON of fun. Rangers focused on ranging... bow-using rogues with sneak attack... fighters who specialize in bows... barbarian "mongol" builds... changing manyshot to a stance could really bring a lot more depth to the game.

Eudimio
03-22-2008, 03:58 PM
I was thinking that rangers should get a feat called something like Improved Bow Strength that would maybe triple the damage you get from their strength stat, maybe make it a level 11 or 13 feat so that only rangers can get it. It might help bow rangers get back into the game? What does everyone else think about this idea, good or maybe something similar that could work?

Alright, horrible idea as is, but you may be on to something. What about a feat chain that replaces strength damage with a damage increase based on your dexterity?

EightyFour
03-22-2008, 07:03 PM
Alright, horrible idea as is, but you may be on to something. What about a feat chain that replaces strength damage with a damage increase based on your dexterity?

That would be a good idea I think, I mean it would suck up a few feats which would be hard on rangers but I could maybe see a feat and an enhancement chain or two feats and an enhancement chain. I just thik a feat chain would make it harder to get other feats as well. But I can see it as a trade off for dumping STR and going all DEX, so I could see if working with one or two feats or an enhancement chain, but I think if it was more than 2 feats I think it maybe a bit to much.

Also I think about all those rangers out there that worked to put points into that stat to make there bow damage better. I think it needs to be something that balances between characters that put points into strength, the rangers that are mostly dex, and new rangers that are built.

Kraak
03-22-2008, 08:33 PM
/not signed
/vote against


If manyshot becomes a stance, then my current ranged Barb/Ranger 14/2 becomes useless, as you can not rage and be in a stance at the same time. Reducing the timer would be much better imo - to either 1 min, or 1:30.

bobbryan2
03-22-2008, 08:54 PM
Rangers already get Bow Strength... this basically means that no character can give worthwhile damage with bows unless they have at least 1 level in ranger.

Making it a ranger only feat would only make that problem worse. I have no problem with ranged combat being better, but I do have problems with Ranger's ranged combat extending their gap with other guilds.

Zuldar
03-22-2008, 09:26 PM
/not signed
/vote against


If manyshot becomes a stance, then my current ranged Barb/Ranger 14/2 becomes useless, as you can not rage and be in a stance at the same time. Reducing the timer would be much better imo - to either 1 min, or 1:30.

Technically manyshot isn't a stance, but rather just a normal form of attack. As such while it should be a toggle, it shouldn't be broken by things such as casting and rage.

I suppose an alternative to balance it would be to put power attack on a 2 minute timer with a 20 second duration hehe. How many people would complain about that though.

EightyFour
03-23-2008, 05:23 AM
OK, so some people think that the feat idea is not so good and some think it is good. But so far I still haven't seen anyone complain about speeding up the shooting speed.

Also I personally would take 1 min of manyshot with a minute cool down would make me a lot happier. I can't say that I think it's a perfect solution, but it seems it would be easy to do. Maybe not easy to decide on what the timer duration should be to find a balance, and what the developers think of as balanced I prob. wouldn't agree with, but it would be something easy to change.

It just seems to me that at least one thing that most don't have a problem with or are for is increasing the ranger rate of fire.
I just hope when a change is made it's made in a realistic way and not a way that puts together something strange. For example Examining if you had 6 rangers all in one group and you had one mob running at them and they could take it out before the target reached them, well that's not realistic to me. Normally there is more than one target.

As to making it a stance that breaks on rage, I don't see that as realistic in a real world situation, someone can be enraged and still take down targets with a gun, why not with a bow?

Kraak
03-23-2008, 11:10 AM
Most of the toggle feats are stances - CE, Resilience, PA, Precision, etc. Improve Precise Shot is one of the exceptions, if they made Many Shot a non-stance toggle feat, and I could rage, Improve Precise Shot, and Many Shot (like I can now) then I'd have no issue with this. Although, I think if I had Many Shot on all the time (even with or without IPS, locking out), I wouldn't need IPS. Just crank on the mower and cut the lawn. A marginal increase to shot speed and reduce the cool down timer to 1 min would probably best.

EightyFour
03-23-2008, 11:22 AM
Most of the toggle feats are stances - CE, Resilience, PA, Precision, etc. Improve Precise Shot is one of the exceptions, if they made Many Shot a non-stance toggle feat, and I could rage, Improve Precise Shot, and Many Shot (like I can now) then I'd have no issue with this. Although, I think if I had Many Shot on all the time (even with or without IPS, locking out), I wouldn't need IPS. Just crank on the mower and cut the lawn. A marginal increase to shot speed and reduce the cool down timer to 1 min would probably best.

Yeah I'm thinking your right, at least for an easy fix of things anyway. But you could always make it so Many Shot and Precise Shot couldn't be running at the same time. I could just imagine a dancing sphere and a ranger like that. I can't even imagine the agro that would generate. You would generate so much agro, their mom's would agro you.

Kraak
03-23-2008, 11:36 AM
yeah and so, to your OP. I agree that bow's could use an uplift, but not sure what would be easy for the dev's to balance and implement. A lot of great ideas here. The tricky part is keep the bowyer's from turning into 1920's gangsters with tommy guns. Which I think we agree on. Anyway, thanks for bringing this up. As far as improving shot speed, applying str to damage, and making manyshot more available:

/signed

Zenako
03-23-2008, 11:48 AM
How about this, (borrowed from the Bards...)

Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)

First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Step one Req would be level 9 Ranger
Step two would be level 12 Ranger
Step three would be level 15 ranger
Step four will be level 18 ranger...

Of just time them into the steps where your manyshot increases....

Same mechanic, just changes the timer...

Nirvana
03-23-2008, 12:23 PM
It's been about 2 years since the first MS rework suggestion came out.

Didn't happen and not gonna happen. Face the fact.

EightyFour
03-23-2008, 03:40 PM
How about this, (borrowed from the Bards...)

Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)

First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Step one Req would be level 9 Ranger
Step two would be level 12 Ranger
Step three would be level 15 ranger
Step four will be level 18 ranger...

Of just time them into the steps where your manyshot increases....

Same mechanic, just changes the timer...

That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I could go for that, but if we had to spend enhancements on it feel better if it was more like:

First step (1 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (2 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (4 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (6 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Level 6, 9, 12, and 15. Or even 3, 6, 9, and 12.
With this idea it would take some time to balance out. But it's a good idea to start on and see how things work out.

EightyFour
03-23-2008, 03:55 PM
It's been about 2 years since the first MS rework suggestion came out.

Didn't happen and not gonna happen. Face the fact.

You have to realize that a game of this scale takes a lot of time to build and a large team of people to work on it.
When something is not in the fore front it gets put on the back burner, it gets done when there is more time.

The idea's here not only allow the developers to get ideas and different point of views, but also to see what it is that is most bothering players. They may pull from these ideas or make a rework themselves. It might be on a list of things to get done, but things like getting the Monk done and introducing guild housing, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Druids, as well as come up with several ideas for the level 18 level cap raise, the mob's they are introducing have to be decided on, the concept art has to be done, the textures, the modeling of those mob's as well as the modeling and texturing of the next quests, and than the animation has to be done for it, it has to be programmed in, debugged for compile problems, alpha tested, released on Risea, fix major bugs from Risea.

There are a few things that have to be done before any of the older stuff needs to be revamped. Just by speeding up the animation of the ranger it has to be re-keyed and the rate of fire has to be reprogrammed. With the many shot it's already in place, so I imagine it would be easier to tool around with that, but it has to get on a list first and than given a priority and the devlopers have to have enough time and people to start changing it, also when they do change it it's going to be some time before they can change it again so they have to do there best to get it right, and even if they make a mistake and have to change it right away that takes time and effort away from other projects that are due by certain dates.

So it takes awhile for these changes, but with enough people interested in them we can let the developers know that this is an issue and it should be addressed at some point.

Kraak
03-24-2008, 11:18 AM
Eighty - had another idea about how to easily address manyshot within current (percieved) coding constraints. Reduce the manyshot active timer to 10 seconds, and reduce cooldown to say 30. This would still address the burstiness of how manyshot should work, and still make it more available. But not to the point where you can roll the mobs into a circle and weedwhack them for a full 20. What do you think?


BTW - not sure if this was suggested before or not - just came to me and wanted to post it.

EightyFour
03-24-2008, 11:23 AM
Eighty - had another idea about how to easily address manyshot within current (percieved) coding constraints. Reduce the manyshot active timer to 10 seconds, and reduce cooldown to say 30. This would still address the burstiness of how manyshot should work, and still make it more available. But not to the point where you can roll the mobs into a circle and weedwhack them for a full 20. What do you think?


BTW - not sure if this was suggested before or not - just came to me and wanted to post it.

No I don't believe that anyone had this idea, but it sounds like a good one to me. I know that I could deal with that. I personal would rather have a 10 second burst fallowed by a 10 second cool down, but I could go 10 seconds than 30 seconds.

Draiden
03-24-2008, 11:26 AM
How about this, (borrowed from the Bards...)

Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)

First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Step one Req would be level 9 Ranger
Step two would be level 12 Ranger
Step three would be level 15 ranger
Step four will be level 18 ranger...

Of just time them into the steps where your manyshot increases....

Same mechanic, just changes the timer...

ONLY if you take away the Ranger requirement for this, does it work. Otherwise, you have barbarian/rogue/fighter builds that get wacked... er, nerfed. Make these enhancement lines available to any character with the manyshot feat... so call it IMPROVED MANYSHOT I, IMPROVED MANYSHOT II, IMPROVED MANYSHOT III and IMPROVED MANYSHOT IV. Much like any character that picks up Maximize for spellcasting gets the IMPROVED MAXIMIZE line of enhancements.

Zenako
03-24-2008, 11:36 AM
ONLY if you take away the Ranger requirement for this, does it work. Otherwise, you have barbarian/rogue/fighter builds that get wacked... er, nerfed. Make these enhancement lines available to any character with the manyshot feat... so call it IMPROVED MANYSHOT I, IMPROVED MANYSHOT II, IMPROVED MANYSHOT III and IMPROVED MANYSHOT IV. Much like any character that picks up Maximize for spellcasting gets the IMPROVED MAXIMIZE line of enhancements.

Given the general wisdom I often see on the boards about the efficiency of ranged attacks I would be a little surprised to find many non rangers with Manyshot, since you need both Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and a 17 DEX minimum. I am sure there are a few, but I have never met any that I can recall. Most of the Fighter rich ranged attackers I have seen were using Repeaters with special attacks (para, banish, etc).

As to them getting whacked, aka nerfed, how so. Nothing they currently do would be any worse than it currently is, and there are a number of feats which get class specific enhancements to boost the effect of that feat ----toughness anyone, metamagics? Keeping it to rangers would be consistent with the current paradigm. Can argue about the merits of the paradigm, but it would be consistent.

Thrudh
03-24-2008, 11:54 AM
It's amazing to me how many people think manyshot should be a stance. It makes me think that there might be some kind of programming issue that we don't know about that prevents Turbine from doing it.

It's amazing to me too, since it's a ridiculous idea...

For 20 seconds every 2 minutes, my ranger can out DPS EVERYBODY... 4 arrows every shot, silver bow with Bow Strength, Improved Crit: Ranged, Improved Precise Shot so I can line up my enemies and hit ALL of them with all 4 arrows. Figure one of those is a crit, I'm probably doing 150-200 damage per set of 4 shots... to MULTIPLE monsters at the same time.

Oh, and it's all at range, so they can't hit me back!!!! (Maybe a spell-caster or two may throw a lightning bolt at me... Oh, I forgot, I have a huge reflex save and evasion... so never mind!)

Rangers totally rock when manyshot is active... Sure, I'd love to have it on all the time... But anyone who's ever had a high-level ranger has to admit that it would be ridiculously overpowered.

Zuldar
03-24-2008, 12:17 PM
It's amazing to me too, since it's a ridiculous idea...

For 20 seconds every 2 minutes, my ranger can out DPS EVERYBODY... 4 arrows every shot, silver bow with Bow Strength, Improved Crit: Ranged, Improved Precise Shot so I can line up my enemies and hit ALL of them with all 4 arrows. Figure one of those is a crit, I'm probably doing 150-200 damage per set of 4 shots... to MULTIPLE monsters at the same time.

Oh, and it's all at range, so they can't hit me back!!!! (Maybe a spell-caster or two may throw a lightning bolt at me... Oh, I forgot, I have a huge reflex save and evasion... so never mind!)

Rangers totally rock when manyshot is active... Sure, I'd love to have it on all the time... But anyone who's ever had a high-level ranger has to admit that it would be ridiculously overpowered.

Manyshot would hardly be overpowered if they had followed the Player's Handbook. A ranged character is already supposed to fire off as many attacks per round as a melee character, manyshot simply allows a ranged character to perform these attacks as a standard action, albeit at a penalty to hit.

Now I suppose I could see manyshot being left as is if the ranged attack speed wasn't so far out of proportion to what it should be. But if they don't modify the attack speed to what it should be ala pnp; then making manyshot a toggle, with the penalty to hit, is the best option.

All us ranged characters are asking is for what we should rightly have in the first place, an equitable attack speed based on bab.

Turial
03-24-2008, 12:22 PM
All us ranged characters are asking is for what we should rightly have in the first place, an equitable attack speed based on bab.

Couldn't have said it better.

Thrudh
03-24-2008, 12:43 PM
All us ranged characters are asking is for what we should rightly have in the first place, an equitable attack speed based on bab.


Except that manyshot is currently BETTER than any melee attack... Again, you get comparable DPS, AT RANGE, on MULTIPLE monsters at the same time... That's not equitable...

So they'd have to make more changes than just make it an "always on stance". I'm not sure if that would be better... Always on, but less powerful, or only on for 20 seconds but super-powerful.

There have been many times that activating manyshot while kiting a sudden ambush of mobs has "saved the day" for my party. I don't know if I'd want to lose the super-ability I can use in an emergency to gain better average DPS all the time.

Zuldar
03-24-2008, 01:03 PM
Except that manyshot is currently BETTER than any melee attack... Again, you get comparable DPS, AT RANGE, on MULTIPLE monsters at the same time... That's not equitable...

So they'd have to make more changes than just make it an "always on stance". I'm not sure if that would be better... Always on, but less powerful, or only on for 20 seconds but super-powerful.

There have been many times that activating manyshot while kiting a sudden ambush of mobs has "saved the day" for my party. I don't know if I'd want to lose the super-ability I can use in an emergency to gain better average DPS all the time.

So fix it like I keep saying. Manyshot while nice in theory does apply penalties to hit, so add those penalties. Though the point is moot in a way as ranged characters should have the same attack speed as a melee character to begin with, the only difference is manyshot allows you to make those attacks as a standard action rather then a full round action.

If what you are concerned about is the "apparent" overpowering of ranged attacks to melee attacks, you need not worry. Ranged attacks suffer from a lack of tactical feats, no power attack (big issue there), ammo requirement which can take up a considerable inventory space, and neither the ability to cause glancing blows, use a shield, or perform 10 attacks a round.

GrayOldDruid
03-24-2008, 02:04 PM
I would like to see Auto-sniper shot, so that you "set it and forget it" - in middle of huge battle, its hard to remember to activate sniper shot when the timer runs out. Could see how that could be overpowered...

My suggestion for 'fixing' ranged rangers : Decrease timer on multi-shot. 20 seconds of multi-shot every 60 seconds wouldn't be so bad. Or give us some better Ammo (and a place to stack that ammo - Quiver). Yeah, you can FIND bane arrows and holy arrows, etc, but not enough to actually use those arrows often. 20 arrows of greater aberration bane last, what, One or Two encounters? Give us ability to either buy or create Frost Arrows. 100% returning Arrows, poison arrows... yeah, we can make Flame Arrows.... if we have a good UMD (which I finally do), but Carrying around specalized arrows for several scenarios takes up a TON of space.

Arcane Archer had potential, but just a +x free-to-create arrows kind of sucks. Plus, the AP cost for return is bad. Would be great to get Elemental Arrows with it... select your element and boom, arrows of that type.

Issip
03-24-2008, 04:54 PM
No kidding! For 20 seconds, a Ranger can put out just as much dps as a melee... then he/she needs to wait another 1:40 to be useful again. Imagine this for the melee types... you hit your "okay, I'm going to swing my sword for a bit" button, and you have 20 seconds to do so. Then, for whatever reason (your arms get tired, or whatever), you can only get one attack per second-and-a-half. Then, 1:40 later, you can melee full speed again. *sigh*

More ppl would play ranged-type char's, and it could be a TON of fun. Rangers focused on ranging... bow-using rogues with sneak attack... fighters who specialize in bows... barbarian "mongol" builds... changing manyshot to a stance could really bring a lot more depth to the game.

I have a really hard time imagining a melee build that can come anywhere near the damage my ranger does during multishot, and I'm perplexed by all the "ranged combat is broken" comments. I won't go through the math on 4 arrows/multishot and all the damage that does, but I can easily watch a raged out barbarian go after a boss and give it 4-5 good whacks with a greataxe, then open up a multishot and have the boss in my face well before multishot expires (refer to previous pages for math, but it's easily 150+ damage per shot - on average, not on crits).

This is just assuming there is 1 mob. If there are say 5 or 50 then the advantage to the ranger is even greater due to improved precise shot, which is essentially always on. Even with cleave, great cleave and whirlwind I can't touch that with my fighters/barbarians. In most cases I find that the emergency that caused me to hit multishot is a pile of corpses by the time multishot wears off.

It is true that the Barbarian will have the aggro back shortly after the multishot wears off, and overall he will do more damage assuming he stays in melee range, but that's the trick - he can't do that damage from 50 yards, and if rangers could out-damage fighters and barbarians all the time from 50 yards away then melee would be completely senseless.

I still think ranged is nicely balanced as of Mod6, and I've never had so much fun playing my ranger. My only complaint is arrows in inventory - that is a huge mess and something that ranged oriented toons should not have to deal with.

Edit: Thinking about this - rangers come into their power finally at level 16. Leveling a ranger sucks, and I'd probably go through about 4 dragonshards changing the feats to make the ranger slightly less terrible at different levels (e.g. repeaters until lvl 12 then switching to longbows). So for the majority of the game content the ranger is still fairly underpowered. At lvl 16 you get your 4th multishot arrow and another feat (imp crit piercing for the good rapiers you've been saving up?). As they go up form level 16, however, an increase in damage of the sort originally suggested would make rangers seriously overpowered.

EightyFour
03-24-2008, 10:59 PM
ONLY if you take away the Ranger requirement for this, does it work. Otherwise, you have barbarian/rogue/fighter builds that get wacked... er, nerfed. Make these enhancement lines available to any character with the manyshot feat... so call it IMPROVED MANYSHOT I, IMPROVED MANYSHOT II, IMPROVED MANYSHOT III and IMPROVED MANYSHOT IV. Much like any character that picks up Maximize for spellcasting gets the IMPROVED MAXIMIZE line of enhancements.

You have a point, in fact I know someone in my guild that has a build like that. I guess the real fixes should be held to the feats themselves as those seem to be the problem.

Kraak
03-25-2008, 09:10 AM
Except that manyshot is currently BETTER than any melee attack... Again, you get comparable DPS, AT RANGE, on MULTIPLE monsters at the same time... That's not equitable...

So they'd have to make more changes than just make it an "always on stance". I'm not sure if that would be better... Always on, but less powerful, or only on for 20 seconds but super-powerful.

There have been many times that activating manyshot while kiting a sudden ambush of mobs has "saved the day" for my party. I don't know if I'd want to lose the super-ability I can use in an emergency to gain better average DPS all the time.

Tanks can intimidate (roll all the mobs to them) then cleave, and great cleave (with minimal timers). Then finish off the rest. Done with a vorpal or 2-hander this can be very effective. Also leaves the cleric with 1 person to heal. And to the follow on point, you can then trip, sunder, stun, or sap anyone of the individual mobs.

EightyFour
03-25-2008, 09:34 PM
It's amazing to me too, since it's a ridiculous idea...

For 20 seconds every 2 minutes, my ranger can out DPS EVERYBODY... 4 arrows every shot, silver bow with Bow Strength, Improved Crit: Ranged, Improved Precise Shot so I can line up my enemies and hit ALL of them with all 4 arrows. Figure one of those is a crit, I'm probably doing 150-200 damage per set of 4 shots... to MULTIPLE monsters at the same time.

Oh, and it's all at range, so they can't hit me back!!!! (Maybe a spell-caster or two may throw a lightning bolt at me... Oh, I forgot, I have a huge reflex save and evasion... so never mind!)

Rangers totally rock when manyshot is active... Sure, I'd love to have it on all the time... But anyone who's ever had a high-level ranger has to admit that it would be ridiculously overpowered.

I have a level 13Ranger/2Fighter/1Rogue, I would consider that to be a high level ranger. I mean I could be wrong. With most of the high level content they are faster than you unless you have a haste on, than we are talking that you are slightly faster than them, enough to kite around, but some of your shot's don't even count if they are right up on you. While you are moving, the closer a mob gets, the less arrows you can fill them with, and I mean that as a bug. Also you have to consider room, if you are out in the vale I could see having plenty of room to not let something hit you, however if you are in a cramped cave your not going to have as much room to move around. Also I have to say that lining up shots of several mob's in a row is a rare thing. Normally they are grouped, so you can hit thru the middle, from the left, or the right, but your not going to hit everything.

Also I have to add, if it was me out DPSing everyone, that means I would have a majority of the agro. And if that's the case, that's mean's it is me running around with a mob full of monsters that all want me blocked in so they can smash me. I can see one not being a problem, but what happens when you have 8 in a cramped cave. I'm not saying that if your in a cramped cave you would even use your manyshot.

I guess the point I'm getting at here is that maybe re tooling manyshot is not the answer, but it's an option.

I also just want to state that when I play a malee character, I look at the dice and say to myself, "was that a 20 I just rolled, I could swear I just saw one" on my ranger it's "Oh, I rolled a 20 I wonder what the next roll well be."

What I'm seeing here is that people have problems with bow use, it's slow and doesn't put out the DPS that a one hander can with a similar weapon type. Between a +5 bow user with compairable stats to a +5 long sword user, the damage should be the same, but it isn't, and that's where it seems most of the problem is to me. And I guess in that case you could say that a malee has to get into the fight, were a ranged character does not, so that may balance it out in our heads, but that would mean ranged characters never die because they never get into the fight. Yea I understand they may take less damage over time. But I also have to say that a bow user can not rip of a stuning blow arrow and than his arrows crit everytime they hit that target. I can't trip a guy with an arrow, the one option I have is to use a bow with comparable abilities on it, and those abilitys don't increase with my strength or my dex.

But for those that just want to have fun playing a ranged character, do you really want them in your group if you know they are going to be doing less damage than a malee character? I know there are several people that don't mind, but it makes it harder for a ranged character to find a group. How many people look at a ranger joining the group and wonder if he's a bow ranger or a two handed, I'm not say that there are not bad tanks out their, but there seems to be more question when it comes to the ranger than it does with a paliden, fighter, or barb.

So here's another idea to throw into the hat, how about something other than manyshot for bow users that everyone can get. How about default abilities like trip and sunder. And feats like stunning blow. Or just speed up the RoF, that would make me happy.

EightyFour
03-25-2008, 09:44 PM
I have a really hard time imagining a melee build that can come anywhere near the damage my ranger does during multishot, and I'm perplexed by all the "ranged combat is broken" comments. I won't go through the math on 4 arrows/multishot and all the damage that does, but I can easily watch a raged out barbarian go after a boss and give it 4-5 good whacks with a greataxe, then open up a multishot and have the boss in my face well before multishot expires (refer to previous pages for math, but it's easily 150+ damage per shot - on average, not on crits).


So I would have to say without crits. you average about 35-40 damage on a normal shot?
Which means your character has about a 36 STR?

Kraak
03-26-2008, 12:47 AM
I believe the number quoted was non-criting while manyshotting. So 4 arrows. A lot of mobs come in groups from 4-6. My warchanter - 2 hander non-crits for 42-50 a shot. With cleave, that gets you 128 at the low end to 300 hp of damage at the high end for non-crits. Followed up by another great cleave. That's some serious dps. timer is 10-15 seconds. So I pop again for 128-300 hp of damage (depending on the size of the mob). While this is distributed versus localized on a single target. Thats still a pretty damn powerful attack. Then add in stunning blow, and trip, and things can get out of hand pretty quickly. All in all the balance is still close but, definitely sides on melee.

Turial
03-26-2008, 06:01 AM
What I'm seeing here is that people have problems with bow use, it's slow and doesn't put out the DPS that a one hander can with a similar weapon type. Between a +5 bow user with compairable stats to a +5 long sword user, the damage should be the same, but it isn't, and that's where it seems most of the problem is to me.

A longbow is mechanically similar to a warhammer rather than a longsword. The expanded crit range of a longsword will win out against the longbow.

EightyFour
03-26-2008, 09:43 AM
A longbow is mechanically similar to a warhammer rather than a longsword. The expanded crit range of a longsword will win out against the longbow.

Yeah, I would agree with that. Guess I just thought of that on the back end. But I still think that a warhammer is going to do more damage than a longbow well.

bobbryan2
03-26-2008, 09:55 AM
A longbow is mechanically similar to a warhammer rather than a longsword. The expanded crit range of a longsword will win out against the longbow.

The expanded crit multiplier of the longbow will negate the expanded crit range of the longsword.

As soon as you can attack as fast with a bow as you can at melee, ranged with be fixed. The problem now isn't the amount of damage done with a bow, but the fact that you can't attack very fast.

Kraak
03-26-2008, 10:23 AM
The expanded crit multiplier of the longbow will negate the expanded crit range of the longsword.

As soon as you can attack as fast with a bow as you can at melee, ranged with be fixed. The problem now isn't the amount of damage done with a bow, but the fact that you can't attack very fast.

Pretty much whatever I've said - aligns, or was intended to align with this point. Simplicity in itself. Thanks Grig.

EightyFour
03-26-2008, 11:11 AM
Is there anyone here that disagrees that bow use animations should be sped up?

Or disagree that rapid shot feat should be faster than the standard animation?

jjflanigan
03-26-2008, 11:36 AM
I personally love the idea of making manyshot a stance. I realize it wouldn't play nicely with some multi-class builds...but it's not a multi-class feat, and there are a lot of things like that so I don't really see that as being a negative.

As it stands with current speeds -- at BaB 16 you can get 53 shots / minute with a bow and rapid shot (47 without rapid shot) (not using manyshot) and 89 attacks / minute with a standard 1h weapon attack. So we could still be bumped up in speed a good amount and remain behind melee combat speed if they so desire.

As a side note, if you take both rapid shot and quick draw, you can get your thrown weapon rate of attack to 56 shots / minute

EightyFour
03-27-2008, 09:30 AM
Anyone else see a problem with rapid shot only given you one more shot every 10 seconds?

Mad_Bombardier
03-27-2008, 10:23 AM
Anyone else see a problem with rapid shot only given you one more shot every 10 seconds?Yes. At the very least, it should be +1 shot every 6 seconds (and a melee attack animation is 3 seconds). But, Ranged combat uses a different scale and Rapid Shot is applied as a % bonus.

Turial
03-27-2008, 11:00 AM
So how many attacks can one currently get with a repeater?

I know at one point repeaters firing at the same rate as other ranged weapons was pretty broken and led to the whole everyone playing repeater builds in beta and breaking the game as far as ranged combat went.

Coldin
03-27-2008, 11:10 AM
So how many attacks can one currently get with a repeater?

I know at one point repeaters firing at the same rate as other ranged weapons was pretty broken and led to the whole everyone playing repeater builds in beta and breaking the game as far as ranged combat went.

Eh, repeaters are all still pretty broken, especially once they made it so Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload affected the reloading times.

Turial
03-27-2008, 11:35 AM
Eh, repeaters are all still pretty broken, especially once they made it so Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload affected the reloading times.

My theory is that a change to ranged ROA is held back because of two things.

1) repeater ROA and Crossbows in general
2) Manyshot may have been rushed into the game and increasing ranged ROA with manyshot as it currently stands would be bad....crossing the streams bad!

Seems like there should be a way to increase the ROA on a specific type of ranged weapon without increasing the ROA for all ranged weapons as a whole. This might allow them to adjust bows up without breaking ranged with repeaters...and possibly tune repeaters down to where they fit thematically.

Manyshot needs to get some serious rework time. As it stands this is a block to ranged combat being changed very much from a mechanics stand point. If it was simply changed to a stance ranged combat would be too good and the devs fears of all ranged combat all the time would come to pass.

(Crazy very rules oriented suggestion)
Seems like if it was changed to a single attack clicky like trip, except with a single round cool down, it would fit with pnp rules and we could then bring ranged ROA up with less fear of power overload. The feat itself provides a set of attack boxes when you take it in your feat section of your character sheet. One symbol with 2 arrows for 2 arrow shots, symbol with 3 arrows for 3 arrow shots and so on and so forth. When you click the symbol you fire a volley of x arrows that the symbol corresponds to. That attack gets the appropriate penalty to attack associated with it. The activation of one works like the boost system and locks out all of the symbols for the cool down. The cool down would be equal to a round of melee combat (5 attacks) ~about 3-5 seconds. If a player wanted to spam the manyshot volley they could but it would be slower then what would be the improved ranged ROA.

Imagine if manyshot worked like deepwood sniper does right now and you could hit it every 5 seconds rather then 10. Would you use it? Would it be worth a better normal ROA?

bobbryan2
03-27-2008, 12:36 PM
Imagine if manyshot worked like deepwood sniper does right now and you could hit it every 5 seconds rather then 10. Would you use it? Would it be worth a better normal ROA?

In general, I find this to be less than optimal design. I don't like the current implementation of Deepwood sniper, and I wouldn't enjoy seeing further expansion of this idea.

Mad_Bombardier
03-27-2008, 03:21 PM
Eh, repeaters are all still pretty broken, especially once they made it so Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload affected the reloading times.With both feats, Repeaters fire faster than 1H melee swings starting at BAB+8. I agree that it's broken, but not in the way you are suggesting.

Coldin
03-27-2008, 04:06 PM
With both feats, Repeaters fire faster than 1H melee swings starting at BAB+8. I agree that it's broken, but not in the way you are suggesting.

I was actually suggesting multiple degrees of being broken. Both in that rapid shot shouldn't effect crossbows, and that repeaters fire way too fast.

Of course I feel that regular bows speed should be increased, and that repeaters should just be slowed down a little so they're about equal to bows, at least in quickness.

Ravynclaw
03-28-2008, 09:26 PM
I agree that making manyshot a constant stance with a - to hit would be best.

Right now we are a burst dps class with too much down time between MS.

You have barbs going in there and just destroying mobs while we plink away with arrows and hope we get a kill shot.

Make ranged DPS a reality!

nbhs275
03-28-2008, 10:24 PM
If my ranger got x3 str to bow damage, he would be doing 1d10+5wp+2ram+39 str, with another 10 for FE. So 47-56 damage a shot, 159-186 on a crit, nevermind the extra 10(30 on crit) vs FE. Way more powerful for the str ranger then the dex ranger.

NOW, if they gave you at say lvl 14 ranger dexterious aim(or something similiarly named) that gave your dex bonus as a damage modifier on ranged attacks, i would consider that fair, as it would even out about the same between str and dex rangers.

Turial
03-28-2008, 11:43 PM
I was actually suggesting multiple degrees of being broken. Both in that rapid shot shouldn't effect crossbows, and that repeaters fire way too fast.

Of course I feel that regular bows speed should be increased, and that repeaters should just be slowed down a little so they're about equal to bows, at least in quickness.

Repeaters equal bows in speed when some one takes rapid reload and the bow user has not taken rapid shot. Rapid shot will work with regular light crossbows and rapid reload to have the same total speed as a bow.

Draiden
03-29-2008, 02:42 AM
A bunch of people are saying that making manyshot a stance would break the game!? That the dps would out-class melee's?! Ya know... my main is a sorc. When I push '5' something instantly dies. When '5' is on timer, I push '4' and the next mob instantly dies. By that point '5' is refreshed, I push it, and the next mob dies.

I have a guildie who is a piercing-spec'd Barbarian. When he pulls out the dual wounding/puncturing rapiers and right-clicks 3 times, things die... fast. He clicks his 'Rage' button, and it lasts for more than 3 MINUTES!!! And when the 3 mintues is up, he drinks a restore pot and clicks it again- immediately. Corpses pile up at his feet and mobs are tripping over themselves to die with the rest of them. WE ARE LEVEL 16, GANG!!! Things are SUPPOSED to die fast. Ranged Rangers aren't pulling their weight. Manyshot is broken. Yes, toggling manyshot will make things die quickly. That's the point.

Thanks for the soapbox...

-D-

Draiden
03-29-2008, 02:46 AM
As an afterthought... give Manyshot a line of enhancements almost identical to the Barbarian Rage enhancements? With same tie-ins to Dexterity that the Rage has with Constitution? *shrugs* As I mentioned before, though... don't make it available to only rangers. There are fighter builds and barbarian builds that use manyshot. That would cheese a lot of people.

-D-

nbhs275
03-29-2008, 11:37 AM
As an afterthought... give Manyshot a line of enhancements almost identical to the Barbarian Rage enhancements? With same tie-ins to Dexterity that the Rage has with Constitution? *shrugs* As I mentioned before, though... don't make it available to only rangers. There are fighter builds and barbarian builds that use manyshot. That would cheese a lot of people.

-D-

I would be happy with an enhancment that shortened the cooldown for manyshot at a flat rate 15 seconds each teir, at a price of 1/2/3/4. Then you could manyshot every other minutes, which would be a big boost in ranged output, but not gamebreakingly so.

EightyFour
03-30-2008, 10:51 PM
I was thinking of another idea that might work out for everyone. How about combine the bonus for dex and str to bow strength, that way either way you go you have the dex rangers getting extra damage and there higher to hit with a bow, and stength rangers would be able to get there high to hit with melee as well as any dex bonus they have for range but not as much with somone that goes all dex. Plus I dont think it would be overpowering.

EightyFour
03-30-2008, 10:56 PM
Also I compiled all the idea's that I saw in the order that I saw them, lemme know if I missed one.


Increse bow strength to either x2 or x3 the damage with the exception of crits.

Use the dexterity modifier and the strength modifier, which ever is higher.

Use the dexterity modifier plus the strength modifier to determine bow damage. (Just thought up this one)

Fix the rate of fire.

Make Manyshot a stance.

QuantumFX’s Idea:
Rapid Shot and Manyshot should be stacking toggleable stances. Bow Strength should either be applied to all composite bows or made into a full BAB class bonus feat. Since Attacks of Opportunity are dropped for melee it shouldn't apply to ranged attackers. Improved precise shot should only have a 33% chance at hitting multiple targets. This would make Arcane Archer more attractive as "Seeker Arrow" and "Phase Arrow" could be implemented to raise that chance back up to 100%. Ranged Increments are already in game by the fact that stuff can sidestep your arrows.

Emulating a full attack option: Meaning your standing still picking off foes. You should get your full number of attacks per round and the Rapid Shot stance should apply. Manyshot in this mode should have half the number of attack animations but will deliver the full number of arrows. Basically you'll get: 5 shots at regular BAB; 6 shots with a -2 BAB; 2 Shots of 4 arrows at -8 BAB or 3 Shots of 4 arrows at -10 BAB.

Emulating Shot on the Run: We'll need to go back a bit to the pre mod 3 days and make some minor changes.
- If you don't have SotR: then you should be able to run around, reload and attack. You'll suck up the -4 to hit penalty and take a 50% running speed reduction while attacking/reloading. (Same should apply to those w/o Spring Attack) Your attack speed will be 50% of your standing still speed but the manyshot stance will not slow down your RoF.
- If you do have SotR: The -4 to hit and 50% running speed reduction go away.
Sorry, I really didn’t know how to compress this one.

Manyshot should be a toggle, providing additional arrows based on your BAB, and a decreased to-hit based on the number of arrows fired.

Turn rapid shot into both a passive and an active, the passive providing the speed boost, and the active working as a toggle ala PH by providing two arrows both at -2 to strike.

Allow a ranged character to quickly (key word there) fire off their alloted attacks in a row with a slight reload time between volleys. The reload animation could also be used when shooting and moving at the same time to prevent people from skipping it, though the shot on the run feat could be used to eliminate or reduce the animation while moving.

A feat chain that replaces strength damage with a damage increase based on your dexterity
Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)

First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Make it for those with the Manyshot feat.

Reduce the manyshot active timer to 10 seconds, and reduce cooldown to say 30.

Enhancment that shortened the cooldown for manyshot at a flat rate 15 seconds each teir, at a price of 1/2/3/4.

Geonis
03-30-2008, 11:17 PM
I think the main problem is the Ranger who pulls before grp is set or aggros the wrong mob. I think another problem is chasing monsters down. I for one HATE chasing monsters all around while the Ranger jumps around and runs this drives me insane. I know someone will say work with the ranger blah blah but I am tired of telling Rangers to stop running around :)

This is still the dumbest thing I hear over and over.

Tired of chasing mobs the Ranger pulls? Then.......................stop! :eek:

Seriously, it may take a little bit longer, but he's taking no damage and keeping them off the group, so let it be.

Draiden
03-31-2008, 12:24 AM
This is still the dumbest thing I hear over and over.

Tired of chasing mobs the Ranger pulls? Then.......................stop! :eek:

Seriously, it may take a little bit longer, but he's taking no damage and keeping them off the group, so let it be.

Yeah, the problem is people get bloodthirst. The see a mob running away, and they feel the need to kill it. Problem is, somebody is already working on the killing, so the bloodthirst gets redirected to the ranger.

Aesop
03-31-2008, 05:58 AM
Ranged Combat Rebalancing: Ranged Combat feels like an after thought that is the bastard stepchild of an abusive alcoholic schizophrenic. It still needs a little love but it doesn't seem to get any at home. So put the stepparent on prozac and lets get by this.

a. RoF: I've posted this a number of times but here it goes again. The RoF of Ranged attacks is far too low relative to Melee. I understand that Mele actually has to be up close and personal with the baduns so risk taking more damage vrs ranged who is well... ranging. However that is a benefit of Ranged combat. The benefits of Melee varies a little. Sword and Shield has better Armor Class due to using bigger shields and thus get more blocking DR when they use it. They also typically have heavier armor options and Shields can carry other useful effect on them like Deathblock or Resistances. Two Handed Fighters do Strength and 1 Half Damage and get glancing blows for a bunch more damage. Two Weapon Fighters are the Quisinarts of the DDO world and attack a huge number of times (though possibly not as many as they should). That said the following should be considered.

1.Change the base RoF of Ranged attacks to 60% that of Sword and Shield Melee(hence forth with regard to Ranged RoF refered to as Melee). (if melee swings 100 times in a minute then Archers and thrown weapons should fire off 60 shots without any modifiers)

2.Rapid Shot should increase the RoF to 75% that of Melee

3.The Feat Improved Rapid Shot should be implemented to give an additional 10% bringing Ranged to 85% the RoF of Melee

4.Manyshot should be changed to a Stance with the following conditios and modifiers.
4a. Many Shot cannot be used in conjunction with Rapid Shot or Improved Rapid Shot thus reducing the RoF back down to 60% Melee.
4b. Numbers of Arrows used should be selectable with limitations by BAB. 2 at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, and 4 at BAB 16.
4c. Each arrow should give a cumulative penalty. I suggest -2 to hit for the first additional arrow and -1 for each beyond that and a RoF penalty of -5% per additional arrow thus reducing the RoF of a Many Shot to 45% at BAB 16 with 4 Arrows flying and a -4 to hit penalty. (note: In PnP Many Shot is a Standard Action which means it can only be fired once per round and comes with a penalty of -8 for firing 4 arrows at the same time. While this (sorta) works in PnP in a Real Time MMO the penalty would be slightly out of balance with the rest of combat to have the RoF reduced to 20% melee)
4d. It may already be there but as Melee has a reduce RoF while moving so too should Ranged. As Many Shot would already encompass a RoF Penalty that is to emulate the Standard Action the movement penalty shouldn't stack to further reduce the Many Shot.

b. Ammunition: Ranged needs a better selection of Ammunition.
1. We should be able to purchase any Material type for base arrows. Silver, Cold Iron, Adamantine, Byeshk ...whatever. Should be made available. Basic Elemental types Should be made available as well. Flaming, Frost, Acid and Shock. Favor Rewards should be implemented to make available other ammunition types (Holy, Axiomatic, Burst effect, Cursespewing etc... almost any weapon effect can be placed on ammunition)
2. From the SRD
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. I would like this translated into all normal ammo being 10% returning and Masterwork and magic being 15%(or more) returning.
3. Thank the gods that Quivers are being implemented. Consider the addition of Magic Quivers that grant normal arrows special effects like increased returning or keen or flaming or poison. These wouldn't need to be low level rewards but even as raid gear or quest creation gear (like the Orchard Shields and Hats)

Range: Range and distance seem a bit off right now.
1. Please increase the Range increments. As it stands now, Point Blank Shot only kicks in at a range almost being able to swing a sword at the critter I'm attacking. 30 ft seems much closer to 10.
2. Also add in Range Increments. even if it is only 5 of them with the ranges being touch, short, medium, long and extreme. throwing a hammer from accross the valley shouldn't hit as effectively as an Arrow from 10 ft. which brings me to the next part
3. Penalties. have penalties kick in beyond medium range. -2 for long range and -4 for extreme. let Point Blank range be within the Short Range category.
4. Implement Far Shot as a Feat. Have Far Shot increase the effective range of Point Blank Shot to Medium and decrease penalties by 2. (note let this also affect Sneak Attack range)
5. Implement Guided Shot (Ranger/Wiz Spell level 1 that negates Ranged Penalties for 1 round ... of just a short time here), Sniper Shot (level 1 ranger/wiz spell lvl 1 which removes the range limitation on Sneak Attack for 1 shot...or just a short time here), and Arrow Mind (ranger/wiz spell level 1 which makes it so ranged attacks don't cause Attacks of Opportunity... here it would negate the AC penalty)

Bow Strength: I understand that when first starting it appeared that rangers needed a little love... and they might have. I also understand that in an environment where crafting was not existant that requiring Composite bows that match your characters strengh could get problematic. However making Archery a Ranger only ability is a bad bad thing. If you needed to, just add Bow Strength to Point Blank Shot and give the Bow Strength to rangers anyway (since they bypass PBS and go straight on to Rapid Shot). Fighters and other range Centric characters shouldn't need to splash Ranger to make an archer.

Or alternately let Rangers have teh Bow Strength but apply a Property to Composite Bows called Mighty which allows the Archer to gain their Strength Bonus (this would be a non magical effect that was on all Compocite Bows). Make this effect combine with a Rangers Bow Strength to give the effect of Strength and a half (or a quarter if that's too strong uou could even add enhancements that increase it to Strength and a half and maybe even strength ax2 at high levels of ranger)

Turial
03-31-2008, 12:10 PM
Sadly none of this is likely to happen.

Though check out the new paladin stuff. Why wasn't the ranger love mod as deep in cool enhancements for ranged? All turbine seems to be doing is increasing the power of melee relative to the barbarian critical rage. At this rate I may have to hang up my bows and look for a better assortment of melee weapons.

Sorry kinda a glum rainy day here and seeing all of the melee power boosts, even though paladins really needed them and I'm happy for them, didn't help.

Yaga_Nub
03-31-2008, 12:17 PM
Sadly none of this is likely to happen.

Though check out the new paladin stuff. Why wasn't the ranger love mod as deep in cool enhancements for ranged? All turbine seems to be doing is increasing the power of melee relative to the barbarian critical rage. At this rate I may have to hang up my bows and look for a better assortment of melee weapons.

Sorry kinda a glum rainy day here and seeing all of the melee power boosts, even though paladins really needed them and I'm happy for them, didn't help.

I guess we aren't looking at the same enhancements because I'll take what the devs gave to the Rangers over what the devs have created for the paladins ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday. There are no "prestige class" enhancements and even the smiting enhancement is a clicky that just replaces the normal smite.

Turial
03-31-2008, 12:48 PM
I guess we aren't looking at the same enhancements because I'll take what the devs gave to the Rangers over what the devs have created for the paladins ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday. There are no "prestige class" enhancements and even the smiting enhancement is a clicky that just replaces the normal smite.

Speaking ranged combat vs paladin melee I would take the paladin set. They dont require 2 less useful feats and a set of rather useless enhancements to qualify for. Also they are synergistic with the paladin smite. Granted we can user the deep wood sniper shot more often but against fast melee combat with a nice boost it isnt too combarable.

But I was speaking more to the depth of enhancements that paladins ended up with rather then their overall power.

ChildrenofBodom
03-31-2008, 01:26 PM
If a ranger is kiting something and you are chasing it, kinda sounds like you are the idiot. :rolleyes:

Remember, you have a decision, no one makes you chase it, it's not that hard, don't chase it. I don't range often, but I do enjoy kiting from time to time. Don't spoil a rangers fun because you are being ********.

Yaga_Nub
03-31-2008, 01:29 PM
Speaking ranged combat vs paladin melee I would take the paladin set. They dont require 2 less useful feats and a set of rather useless enhancements to qualify for. Also they are synergistic with the paladin smite. Granted we can user the deep wood sniper shot more often but against fast melee combat with a nice boost it isnt too combarable.

But I was speaking more to the depth of enhancements that paladins ended up with rather then their overall power.

I would still disagree that there is depth in the new enhancements. One is a new line of smiting and one is a resurrection line. Where is the depth in that? We got prestige classes and an awesome new spell. :)

Turial
03-31-2008, 02:45 PM
I would still disagree that there is depth in the new enhancements. One is a new line of smiting and one is a resurrection line. Where is the depth in that? We got prestige classes and an awesome new spell. :)

Each of the 2 lines is fully drawn and several tiers deep where only 1 of the ranger lines was shown fully. That is depth.

But yes we did get an awesome spell.

Draiden
04-01-2008, 10:26 AM
If a ranger is kiting something and you are chasing it, kinda sounds like you are the idiot. :rolleyes:

Remember, you have a decision, no one makes you chase it, it's not that hard, don't chase it. I don't range often, but I do enjoy kiting from time to time. Don't spoil a rangers fun because you are being ********.

Rangers don't kite mobs, they kite party members. "Oops, looks like Kargon failed his WIS check again... lol" ;)