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Riggs
03-18-2008, 12:05 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=139959

This mentioned the announcement and interview about monks, but of course ended up digressing into people agruing who is going to make a better monk by page 2.

The idea of a 'Chi bar' is good. The mention previously about Oriental Adventures and the special 'monk feats' that were in there could be really cool, that was a really cool expansion book. Having stances inherent to monks that are similar to fighting feats , fire/air/water stance sounds like it could be good. Using chi for these abilities sounds about right, so they are powerful, but limited use over time abilities. I would also suggest that a monk could 'power up' and get more dr, just like the idea of a martial artist being able to 'focus his/her chi and shrug off an attack'. This would have to be a stacking dr, as at level 20 they get outsider dr anyway, and 10 dr as in the book is pretty low at level 20 with the DDO environment being what it is.

What sounds less good is the direction of the chi bar i.e. You lose it for resting or not attacking stuff, and ONLY grow the chi bar by attacking or getting hit.

This sounds a lot like rage/frenzy functions used in some other games, and is a completely opposite concept for a martial arts/meditative/chi class. A barbarian frenzied berkerker (possible new enhancement line for barbs?) makes a lot of sense to get 'more angry' more speed/attacks as they hit and get hit more. More anger = more energy. Where another person would lose energy fighting over time the raging type gains energy "Hulk SMASH, puny humans making Hulk ANGRY!!!!!!", for a monk it should be the exact opposite.

Monks should start with a full bar just like any spell casting class. Stances, when activated, would use a small amount of energy per second. Fighting using no special abilities would use no energy. Using special attacks, like stunning blow or dim mak, chi strikes, ethereal step etc, all would use energy, more the higher level or more powerful the ability.

The chi bar could gain over time even if not resting, or if not then normally at a shrine. Monks should also have the special ability of meditation. Like the other special class enhancements, it would be a 'once per 10 minutes' thing that could be activated anywhere, and would let the monk rest as if they just used a shrine. This would simulate the ability of monks to meditate anywhere at any time and regain their chi, where everyone else has to 'sleep once per day'.

So most things about the coming monk sound promising - but please Turbine, make the chi bar go down in combat, not up. As others have stated, in addition to the fact that it is not in the spirit of the class, it will give monk players a very strong encouragement to just run ahead and never stop fighting...no matter what that does to the rest of the party. And that would lead to many more negative group dynamics. (Not everyone is running in awesomeness guild gruops 100% of the time, and pugs are already a **** shoot whether they are good or horrible).

Thanks,
Riggs

tihocan
03-18-2008, 12:33 PM
The chi bar could gain over time even if not resting
In the past, devs have made lots of efforts to avoid "regen over time" things that would encourage players to stop and wait instead of going on in a quest. I really hope it stays this way.

MysticTheurge
03-18-2008, 12:53 PM
In the past, devs have made lots of efforts to avoid "regen over time" things that would encourage players to stop and wait instead of going on in a quest. I really hope it stays this way.

Mod 6 disagrees with you.

And I find the converse (the suggested "fade away when not fighting") likely to provide exactly the opposite problem. Which is to say, it's going to encourage zerging more than anything else in the game so far.

wiglin
03-18-2008, 12:57 PM
Mod 6 disagrees with you.

And I find the converse (the suggested "fade away when not fighting") likely to provide exactly the opposite problem. Which is to say, it's going to encourage zerging more than anything else in the game so far.

QFT...lol

I will wait to pass judgment on the monk until I play one.

tihocan
03-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Mod 6 disagrees with you.
I disagree with this statement.

wiglin
03-18-2008, 01:10 PM
I disagree with this statement.

Minus the whole humping trees or jumping in and out of water to slowly get back hp/sp.

Riggs
03-18-2008, 01:31 PM
It doesnt have to be regen over time. It can be simply a rest and recover same as anyone else. The main point is...it should NOT be "Zerg and get hit on PURPOSE to get more dps".

My cleric already hates this idea. Most clerics I know dont enjoy groups where certain players go out of their way to take damage. "Hey maybe I can jump through the trap 5 times! I didnt die the first 2 times..." I can guarentee that my cleric is going to say "Well if you want to go out and get hit fine - then heal yourself because I am not wasting sp on someone who is intentionally getting hit".

A frenzy bar for monks, considering the day of Mod 7 there are going to be a billion monks running around (very fast running) is going to make group dynamics very bad. People in many cases already dont like, or simply dont, play their clerics in pugs because of the general random, and often bad, nature of pugs. This effect would vastly increase the rate of clerics ...not playing. The game is already not cleric friendly (know a lot of rich clerics?) Adding a new effect that is essentially going to increase the healing needs of a group will drive many clerics to never pug, and already pretty much every shroud group is sitting around waiting for clerics to want to pug with random people who may or may not be able to kill things, and will very likely cost the cleric most of what they would make looting the chests.

And again - a frenzy/rage bar goes against any concept of monks.

MysticTheurge
03-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Minus the whole humping trees or jumping in and out of water to slowly get back hp/sp.

And the fact that mod 6 added regeneration over time back into the game.

The only example of "We don't want you to stand around" that I know of is the removal of the Troll-Regen ring. But now Shroud items give the exact same kind of regen, so that kind of counters that entire argument.

bandyman1
03-18-2008, 04:40 PM
And the fact that mod 6 added regeneration over time back into the game.

The only example of "We don't want you to stand around" that I know of is the removal of the Troll-Regen ring. But now Shroud items give the exact same kind of regen, so that kind of counters that entire argument.

Not to mention resetting shrines. " Yeah, we blew through all our mana. Shrines going reset in a few minutes anyways " has become a mantra in PuG groups.

Invalid_86
03-18-2008, 07:04 PM
Or just make them be like they are in the Player's Handbook.

G_kinkaid
03-18-2008, 07:55 PM
Or just make them be like they are in the Player's Handbook.

Brilliant!

Grond
03-18-2008, 08:51 PM
Brilliant!

Except for the changes necessary to translate turn based abilities into a real time game?

Invalid_86
03-18-2008, 08:56 PM
Except for the changes necessary to translate turn based abilities into a real time game?

Those changes are few indeed.

Riggs
03-21-2008, 02:07 PM
Those changes are few indeed.

It wouldnt take much to adapt basic monk abilities. The complexity seems to be in implementing the various chi options into a real time environment. Oriental Adventures was mentioned, which had a lot of different options for a monk.

However the chi bar seems a good idea - the direction it goes in combat is not.

Zaodon
03-21-2008, 02:13 PM
Am I the only one that saw in the video where she pressed a special button, and the monk sat down and generated Qi in a meditative stance (without having to fight) ?

Just sayin'.

MysticTheurge
03-21-2008, 02:52 PM
Am I the only one that saw in the video where she pressed a special button, and the monk sat down and generated Qi in a meditative stance (without having to fight) ?

Just sayin'.

Watching the video also made me realize that we've all (or at the very least I have) assumed that there's some general over-time Chi loss, mostly based on how we've experienced similar fight-to-gain-it mechanisms in other games.

But that may not be the case. You may gain Chi by fighting (or by meditating) and then only lose it by performing certain attacks.

I tried to watch to see if I could tell one way or the other in the video, but the Chi bar was too small to really see.

BlueLightBandit
03-21-2008, 03:34 PM
Hey, what if they added <speculation>??? I mean, wouldn't that be nearly as awesome as <other speculation>?!?

I mean, if monks could <speculation> and then <speculation> without having to <speculation> before they <speculation> again... I mean, crazy right?

So I'm totally all for <speculation>, especially if it includes <speculation> and <speculation> about <speculation>.

/sarcasm off
/sigh

ShadesofGreen
03-21-2008, 03:37 PM
I didn't see the video where a button was pressed for chi. Can anyone link that article, or did I just miss it all together. I saw where the monk went through the attack cycle of punches and kicks. Seemed very fluid, I liked it.

As for what players will do with the new class seems fairly obvious, they'll rush into combat and max out the character with all the elite equipment they can find. I'd have to say that is my biggest dislike of DDO, but its a facet of MMO playing. It makes it all a tough balancing act, true to the D&D spirit yet competetive enough to stay afloat in a very competetive market.

I can see a lot of players running monk on the first day. I'll even put money on seeing numerous Aangs and Tophs, each with some kind of "bending" in their names. Yeah, its a cartoon, check it out. I like that they are consulting Oriental Adventure for inspiration for the class.

I'm not sure how the Qi bar increasing through combat will work out, it seems like people will want to rush and rush more to keep it full. I can see many people complaining about using a shrine because they are at full Qi and don't want it to drop. I'll take a wait and see approach. I've been wating for my half-orc illusionist since lauch, so I'll wait some more... and watch.. ;)

Nevermind, I just found the vid on TenTonHammer.

Borror0
03-21-2008, 04:05 PM
You may gain Chi by fighting (or by meditating) and then only lose it by performing certain attacks.

I think it'd be more logical. The fights were too spaced for anything else.

Invalid_86
03-21-2008, 05:13 PM
It wouldnt take much to adapt basic monk abilities. The complexity seems to be in implementing the various chi options into a real time environment. Oriental Adventures was mentioned, which had a lot of different options for a monk.

However the chi bar seems a good idea - the direction it goes in combat is not.

As I said make it like the PHB. There are no chi options in there.

Now I saw that there will be with a WoW power type meter attached. Not crazy about the idea as what is in the PHB works just fine and we don't need a third status bar. But who knows, we'll just have to wait and see.

Pellegro
03-21-2008, 05:23 PM
And the fact that mod 6 added regeneration over time back into the game.

The only example of "We don't want you to stand around" that I know of is the removal of the Troll-Regen ring. But now Shroud items give the exact same kind of regen, so that kind of counters that entire argument.

Limited regen was "added back" into the game with the Titan mod (was that mod 3? I forget. ...).

The jungle cloak: a 2 minute Heal over time in 5 point clicks.

Hendrik
03-21-2008, 05:26 PM
Hey, what if they added <speculation>??? I mean, wouldn't that be nearly as awesome as <other speculation>?!?

I mean, if monks could <speculation> and then <speculation> without having to <speculation> before they <speculation> again... I mean, crazy right?

So I'm totally all for <speculation>, especially if it includes <speculation> and <speculation> about <speculation>.

/sarcasm off
/sigh

LOL!

Post of the month!

Pellegro
03-21-2008, 05:28 PM
I have no idea how the chi bar will work.

My assumption was that it would decrease over time, but increase due to (a) fighting or (b) meditation. I assume you can only do the meditation thing so many times/day.

I would think they'd go this way (rather than the opposite) for balance reasons. If you start with full bar and go down, then "Qi management" becomes a big issue. Players whine that the class is too weak b/c you run out of Qi. "Give us Qi pots". Yadda yadda.

If you go the opposite direction - that Qi is gained in combat, then you're effectively limiting how powerful the monk is (i.e. they get their best hits in at the end) while also makign "Qi management" less a resource issue.

Will it encourage zerging? In theory, yes. But I suspect that the data feeds off the servers woudl show that zerging is already firmly entrenched as the prevailing play style. I don't think monks will change that.

Cheers!

Snoggy
03-21-2008, 06:29 PM
Mod 6 disagrees with you.

Yeah, but certain parts of Mod 6 are also really good examples of how and why the chi bar shown in the video will work well. A spell bar in the pit fiend fight goes away. And is a limited resource. But the Pit Fiend fight is one of the more standard "raid" style encounters where it takes a lot of concerted melee damage and the target has a lot of hit points. The Chi Bar the way it is being described is more useful in that kind of fight than, in, say, the Titan encounter. The monk's resource continues to build during the fighting. The monk then has greater access to the monk's "bar." If DDO continues to design content/encounters that are along those standards of prolonged melee centric fights, then the chi-bar will work out ok for monks.

It's an already proven functional aspect of MMOs. It's no different than a rage bar or building combo points in World of Warcraft. Combat in DDO is so fast that the monks may find it problematic maintaining their Chi in quite a few quests though.

MysticTheurge
03-21-2008, 06:31 PM
My assumption was that it would decrease over time, but increase due to (a) fighting or (b) meditation. I assume you can only do the meditation thing so many times/day.

I assumed that too, at first, but looking at the meditation in the latest video, that wouldn't be a very reasonable way to go about it.

Meditation actually sits you down and appears to give you a small amount of Chi regen over time.

What would be the point of doing that if Chi, normally, decreased over time. It would be a almost entirely pointless ability. But if Chi doesn't decrease over time, then the ability makes far more sense.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

Pellegro
03-21-2008, 07:32 PM
I assumed that too, at first, but looking at the meditation in the latest video, that wouldn't be a very reasonable way to go about it.

Meditation actually sits you down and appears to give you a small amount of Chi regen over time.

What would be the point of doing that if Chi, normally, decreased over time. It would be a almost entirely pointless ability. But if Chi doesn't decrease over time, then the ability makes far more sense.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

I guess I'm confused.

If chi normally declines over time, but meditation will actually make it increase, then it seems like meditation is a good thing, no?

So if a Monk gets 3/day ... then can use them right before a big fight if they're low in Chi at that moment, or use them after party stood around for 5 minutes waiting for someone to enter quest , etc....

So like you start at 0. You fight fight fight. You get it up to (I dunno) - 20. You use some special attacks. Its now at 5 again. Fight fight fight. Back to 20. Booyah, guy's dead. Your group is moving to next quest ... 19 ... 18 ... etc.

Its down to 7, but a big fight is ahead. You want it to be at 10 so you can use SUPER-KUNGFUMOVE-#119(TM) on the first guy you see and drop him in his tracks.

So, BANG, you meditate. The others run ahead but you know it'll be fine cuz when you stand up you'll be at ... 17 Chi, will be able to catch up no prob (monk speed) and put the Laydown on that first ogre with your SUPER-KUNGFUMOVE-#119(TM).

Right?

Or maybe I'm missing it? :confused:

MysticTheurge
03-21-2008, 08:14 PM
So, BANG, you meditate.

Yeah. Did you watch the video?

Cause it doesn't look like you ever "BANG meditate."

It looks like you "Sit down a meditate and wait for a while to gain some Chi."

It just wouldn't be worth the time if, when you stand back up, that Chi just disappears again.

Pellegro
03-21-2008, 08:35 PM
Yeah. Did you watch the video?

Cause it doesn't look like you ever "BANG meditate."

It looks like you "Sit down a meditate and wait for a while to gain some Chi."

It just wouldn't be worth the time if, when you stand back up, that Chi just disappears again.

Oh yeah, I was kind assuming that the decay rate would be kinda low so like, hypothetically, it would take maybe 1 minute to lose the chi you gain from meditating again.

You know, like the meditate is a "buff" to your Chi, but you always are continually losing it (unless you're gaining it from meditating or beating on something).

Sheezgame
03-23-2008, 03:35 AM
Personally I prefer that the chi bar increases, hopefully it doesn't decrease over time. If it doesn't it should all but solve the zerg issue that some groups have.

I don't think it should be like spell points, i would rather the monk be different to play. If you want your bar to decrease, go roll a wizard..

Please rename your post to "The way I think monks should be"

Xaxx
03-23-2008, 04:27 AM
So you one person know exactly whats better for a class you havent even touched yet then the guys who've spent a year developing the class???

You who've not see 4th ed where as the devs im sure have been privy to info your hands havent and wont see for another few months....

You think this is how it HAS to be, when they're this close to finished development... not a "hey devs did you guys look at doin things this way" or "hey maybe things should be backwards" its "this is how monks should be and you guys are *insert your phrase of choice here*.

Granted I've personally not liked alot of things the devs have decided to do or not to do, but I'm still here. If you think monks HAVE to be this way and they're not, theres a simple solution, dont play. Buh-Bye

Sheezgame
03-23-2008, 05:16 AM
You know most of the problems with the monk seem to be that the party is impatient. If the way the monk works means the party slows down and stops zerging the quests then it's a good thing imo..

KristovK
03-23-2008, 05:07 PM
My first thought to the 'itll make people zerg more!' is...what game are YOU playing? No offense, but seriously, what game are you playing where people aren't zerging constantly, cause it sure ain't the DDO I'm playing. I tell everyone to stop for a moment so my Bardarian can sing his songs, including the Warchanter DR song..and there's MAYBE 1 person standing near me, usually the cleric. My cleric tells everyone to hold still while he gives out buffs, and there's MAYBE 1 person waiting for SOME of the buffs before they too run off. My Barbarian is standing near the cleric while they toss out some buffs, wondering why the rogue and wizard are already almost dead and we've just entered the quest?

It's become common, I don't even bother saying anything anymore, because hey, death doesn't HURT like it used to, so who cares, it's just a few coins.

Monks can build up some chi using Meditation, they can build up chi hitting mobs and they can build up chi getting HIT by mobs, less for getting hit than for hitting, 2 to 1 ratio actually, so zerging monks, yeah, probably going to see that. Then again, I seem to recall monks in PnP being first into combat because..well..they move so much faster then anyone else and they have feats/abilities that make them good shock troops. Monks dashes in, grabs the first baddie and tosses him into the next one, then trips the 3rd baddie, and starts hitting it. 1 baddie usually down and out before the rest of the party gets into the action, baddies all confused and not sure what is going on or who to target because there's this insane mother in robes, ROBES!, tossing them around and kicking and hitting and..did he just BITE you Yark? and oh my gods we're all going to die! Morale rolls usually start about this time and a lot of mobs get a little antsy when they see a monk going to town, especially if there's a caster in the party who starts lighting up some arses. Who to go for first, this insane mother in the robes in our faces or that casting monster in the robes....nevermind, that one in the robes up front just tossed me across the room, think I'll just lay here for a minute and get my breath back, oh that's a shiney dagger..*erk*. Which is why monks are so much fun in PnP, they really are whirling dervishes of pain and death and confusion..but we don't get all those fun rules in DDO like grappling and tossing and so on. But we'll still be seeing monks charging ahead and doing their thing cause..well..that IS what monks do, like barbarians, they get up close and personal and lay some hurting down fast and with extreme prejudice.

At least with the chi bar and having to build it up and watch it go away as you use special moves, monks will have some limitations built in. Won't be much point in zerging if you can't at least hit the mobs, 1 chi per incoming hit isn't very cost effective, so that'll keep some of them under control a bit..maybe. Mobs the monks can wail on without trying, yeah, zerging will be constant, unless there's some abilities/feats that are X/rest, in which case we'll see monks stop and use rest shrines at least :) Pretty much like a barbarian...actually, almost exactly like a barbarian today, minus the greataxe, ungodly hps and with a better AC and Will saves.

Strakeln
03-23-2008, 06:18 PM
Mod 6 disagrees with you.

And I find the converse (the suggested "fade away when not fighting") likely to provide exactly the opposite problem. Which is to say, it's going to encourage zerging more than anything else in the game so far.I predict that my monk will be the fastest leveled of all of my characters.

There will be 18,000,000 monks looking for group, all zerging like crazy.

/rubs hands together in glee

Riggs
03-23-2008, 06:26 PM
So you one person know exactly whats better for a class you havent even touched yet then the guys who've spent a year developing the class???

You who've not see 4th ed where as the devs im sure have been privy to info your hands havent and wont see for another few months....

You think this is how it HAS to be, when they're this close to finished development... not a "hey devs did you guys look at doin things this way" or "hey maybe things should be backwards" its "this is how monks should be and you guys are *insert your phrase of choice here*.

Granted I've personally not liked alot of things the devs have decided to do or not to do, but I'm still here. If you think monks HAVE to be this way and they're not, theres a simple solution, dont play. Buh-Bye

Well if we are talking about D&D....then I have been 'touching' monks for a lot more years than DDO has been around. Like 15-20.

Unlike your post I never actually made any statements about the developers, just that what I think would have a negative impact on the game. But thanks for the postive post. I look forward to your one day learning what a contructive comment is.

Riggs
03-23-2008, 06:35 PM
As I said make it like the PHB. There are no chi options in there.

Now I saw that there will be with a WoW power type meter attached. Not crazy about the idea as what is in the PHB works just fine and we don't need a third status bar. But who knows, we'll just have to wait and see.

By chi options I was generalizing about the special moves in Oriental Adventures, any high level monk will have things like 'eagles claw, iron fist, spinning kick, hurl, great hurl, iron skin etc'. Having a dozen special moves (that would use chi, since everything in martial arts stems from chi pretty much) that would require toggling would be cumbersome. But having what was mentioned in the dev post "Air stance, Earth stance" etc, would be more generic, but enable a faster change from offensive/defensive styles.

Even if nothing was added but the basic phb they would still be a strong class(but the fast movement would be way too fast by high level...)

Delacroix21
03-23-2008, 07:52 PM
More important then this chi problem is if unarmed will even be viable. To be honest all signs point to no unless your willing to give up=

1. Elemental damage
2. holy/unholy
3. damage reduction other then lawful and adamantine
4. +5 to hit and damage (big one)
5. Amulet slot (if they add amulet of mighty fists to balance #4, every monk will give up this slot)
6. wounding, puncturing, etc. etc. etc.
7. *EDIT* heh, forgot BANE! no small thing

Lets be honest, DDO isnt DnD, elemental puncturing.wounding weapons are not rare. SO unless they add unarmed weapons called fistwraps or something to that effect, every monk will use kamas, and too a lesser degree then a fighter no less. =(

MysticTheurge
03-23-2008, 08:09 PM
My first thought to the 'itll make people zerg more!' is...what game are YOU playing? No offense, but seriously, what game are you playing where people aren't zerging constantly, cause it sure ain't the DDO I'm playing.

Haha. That's a fair point, I suppose. :D

KristovK
03-23-2008, 08:56 PM
More important then this chi problem is if unarmed will even be viable. To be honest all signs point to no unless your willing to give up=

1. Elemental damage
2. holy/unholy
3. damage reduction other then lawful and adamantine
4. +5 to hit and damage (big one)
5. Amulet slot (if they add amulet of mighty fists to balance #4, every monk will give up this slot)
6. wounding, puncturing, etc. etc. etc.
7. *EDIT* heh, forgot BANE! no small thing

Lets be honest, DDO isnt DnD, elemental puncturing.wounding weapons are not rare. SO unless they add unarmed weapons called fistwraps or something to that effect, every monk will use kamas, and too a lesser degree then a fighter no less. =(

Points 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7 are all covered under the standard rules for 3.5 as it stands now, these can all be put on gloves, bracers, necklaces and even helmets, different items governing different things naturally. Elemental and alignment damage can be put on gloves/bracers, bonuses to hit and damage as well, as can Bane, Wounding, and anything else you can put on a blunt damage weapon, since unarmed is blunt damage until Epic levels, where you can take feats to change it to slash damage..and even take a feat to make your unarmed strikes Vorpal.

As for point 3..Ki strike makes your unarmed attacks equal to a magic weapon and it goes up from there to Lawful and adamantine, and in Epic levels you get Epic magic weapon and Axiomatic option feats(the Axiomatic overrides and doesn't stack with the Lawful, so...). Tie that in with the feat that allows DR penetration with any weapon against specific DR types...

The amulet..eh..there's plenty of amulets in PnP, plenty in DDO, so who knows what people will be using for that slot.

Invalid_86
03-23-2008, 09:29 PM
So you one person know exactly whats better for a class you havent even touched yet then the guys who've spent a year developing the class???

You who've not see 4th ed where as the devs im sure have been privy to info your hands havent and wont see for another few months....

You think this is how it HAS to be, when they're this close to finished development... not a "hey devs did you guys look at doin things this way" or "hey maybe things should be backwards" its "this is how monks should be and you guys are *insert your phrase of choice here*.

Granted I've personally not liked alot of things the devs have decided to do or not to do, but I'm still here. If you think monks HAVE to be this way and they're not, theres a simple solution, dont play. Buh-Bye

The irony here is Monks aren't in 4th edition.

They are , however, in 3.5, the version that DDO supposedly follows. You can't really blame people for using that as a reference.
It's a core class. People will expect it to be like, well, the PHB. Call them crazy!

Now I am suspicious simply because every time DDO unnecessarily deviates from the core rules game balance gets screwed up. Sure, it might not happen with monks but looking at the past track record it doesn't bode well.

MysticTheurge
03-23-2008, 09:47 PM
Now I am suspicious simply because every time DDO unnecessarily deviates from the core rules game balance gets screwed up.

That's a bit silly, given that they can stick directly to the core rules and game balance would still get screwed up. (Casters vs. Fighters being the most obvious example.)

Invalid_86
03-23-2008, 09:52 PM
That's a bit silly, given that they can stick directly to the core rules and game balance would still get screwed up. (Casters vs. Fighters being the most obvious example.)

But not quite as badly. The 3.5 rules, while not 100% perfect, have been heavily playtested. The same cannot be said about the DDO changes. We tend to find their flaws after its too late to change them.

MysticTheurge
03-23-2008, 10:04 PM
But not quite as badly. The 3.5 rules, while not 100&#37; perfect, have been heavily playtested.

So heavily playtested that they're being overhauled almost entirely.

3.5 has some pretty major flaws. I love the system, and it was leaps and bounds ahead of second edition. But there was stuff about it that just wouldn't translate. And stuff about it that could be translated but probably shouldn't be.

MysticRhythms
03-23-2008, 10:17 PM
The way Monks should be:


1) Take the Fighter Class.
2) Take Improved Unarmed Strike.
3) Done.

Invalid_86
03-23-2008, 10:43 PM
So heavily playtested that they're being overhauled almost entirely.

3.5 has some pretty major flaws. I love the system, and it was leaps and bounds ahead of second edition. But there was stuff about it that just wouldn't translate. And stuff about it that could be translated but probably shouldn't be.

Yep. Being overhauled completely.

I spent most of my 20's working in the gaming industry, where there is a concept called "planned obsolescence". In order to continue to make money (and stay in business) your product needs to be updated every few years.

Add to that you have a constant refinement of systems- which hopefully 4E is one example of that.

However what DDO has done is not translate core rules that could have been put in that have haunted us since, like touch ACs, AOOs, BaB, and ranged combat working properly.

They have added things that made things worse for game balance, like the enhancement system and using a spell point system

And they have just ignored 30 year's worth of good advice, such as in the case of the Monty Haulism that's rampant in the game.

Yes, 3.5 isn't perfect but it was a relatively solid foundation. Look at a game balance issue in the game. Ask yourself "is that how it's supposed to be in D&D?" . The answer is overwhelmingly "no".

So yeah, when I hear that DDO is messing with a core class it gives me that "um....ok" feeling.

Cinwulf
03-24-2008, 09:02 AM
Mod 6 disagrees with you.

And I find the converse (the suggested "fade away when not fighting") likely to provide exactly the opposite problem. Which is to say, it's going to encourage zerging more than anything else in the game so far.


Ah yes, exactly like Brutes in CoV. Their inherent "rage" causes exactly this effect :p

Zaodon
03-24-2008, 09:22 AM
1) There is absolutely no evidence that Chi/Qi/Ki fades over time.
2) Even if it does fade, without knowing how fast it fades, any argument about "forcing zerging" is premature.
3) If it does not fade, it must reset somehow. Obviously, using a "special move" uses it up. I also assume it resets when leaving/entering a quest. It might also reset when you shrine.
4) Its unknown how many times a Monk can use "Meditate", or if there is even a limit/rest. Its unknown how much Qi it creates.
5) Its unknown if Qi generates only when attacking, or if it generates when a Monk is hit.
6) Its unknown how much Qi is generated per hit (or per getting hit), and its unknown how much is used when a "special move" is activated.

Lorien_the_First_One
03-24-2008, 10:03 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=139959

The idea of a 'Chi bar' is good.

It's idiodic and not consistant with D&D rules.

Illuminati
03-24-2008, 10:11 AM
It's idiodic and not consistant with D&D rules.

Remember, they are privy to the next rule set so perhaps the Chi will be in all of our tea =p

I am more worried about trio bar toons extending the party bar beyond what my monitor holds.

Delacroix21
03-24-2008, 01:38 PM
Points 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7 are all covered under the standard rules for 3.5 as it stands now, these can all be put on gloves, bracers, necklaces and even helmets, different items governing different things naturally.

The amulet..eh..there's plenty of amulets in PnP, plenty in DDO, so who knows what people will be using for that slot.

You really think they are going to be adding all these bonuses to all these items? That is just silly and would be ridiculously overpowered as well. Geez, fire gloves, ice bracers, holy necklace, and bashing helmet? Comon man...


It would be MUCH simplier to just add fistwraps as no one is all that keen to give up an inventory spot that no other class has too.

Invalid_86
03-24-2008, 01:47 PM
Remember, they are privy to the next rule set so perhaps the Chi will be in all of our tea =p


Sadly monks are not in the next PHB, so this statement means nothing.

MysticTheurge
03-24-2008, 02:07 PM
Sadly monks are not in the next PHB, so this statement means nothing.

Just because they're not in the PHB doesn't mean they're not being designed for 4E.

Invalid_86
03-24-2008, 02:22 PM
Just because they're not in the PHB doesn't mean they're not being designed for 4E.

Nonetheless I can't imagine Turbine having any finalized rules on hand to reference. Isn't it far more likely that Turbine just made chi/ki/qi/whatever bars up?

RazorrX
03-24-2008, 02:24 PM
I have yet to see a post from Wizards that states that Monks are not in the PHB. They have said that they are set on 8 classes in the PHB, and in another interview that there may be up to 11 classes in the PHB. Later it was said that the ONLY classes that were for sure in the PHB would be fighter, cleric, wizard and rogue. In the races and classes book that came out, paladin, ranger, monk, sorcerer, warlord, etc. were all listed as being worked on at that time.

So at this time, it is unknown if Monks will be in the first PHB. Also note that the 1st PHB is not the only 'core' phb that will be published. 4e is going a different route with that as well.

This is the latest I could find from Enworld:


Fewer than 11 core classes (source (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204373)). James Wyatt -- Although two PCs may serve the same role, they may do it in different ways. (Like fighters with different styles.) The roles are geared towards combat; a PC's non-combat aspects can differentiate him further. He also said that they are still considering the possibility of there being a class or two that doesn't quite fit the four "roles".
Update on number of classes (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3724633&postcount=22) from 4E Mechanical Designer Logan Bonner -- "There are 8 classes in PH1, but more will come out later in other books and the magazines. Think of it this way: There are many classes, but each will fit into one of the four roles. This way you have plenty of variability, but you can always be sure that the class is filling a basic function it's expected to." Note, though that 11 classes have actually been mentioned so far (below), implying that while all of those classes are in 4E, they're not necessarily in the [first] PHB.
Although Mike Mearls disagrees (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3870291&postcount=11) on the number of classes: "Mearls said 8 was about the 'middle range' of the number of classes that might be in the PH when I asked him about it yesterday, specifically mentioning that the Internet was taking 8 classes as confirmed."
Logan Bonner (WotC designer) (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3725016&postcount=448): "Nobody has said which 8 classes are in or out of the PH1. We've talked about classes in seminars and on the boards, and we've mentioned way more than eight classes in them. All the classes in the 3.5 PH will appear at some point in the game's lifespan, but the only ones you can call "confirmed" in the PH1 are fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard."

MysticRhythms
03-24-2008, 02:38 PM
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Yellow]I have yet to see a post from Wizards that states that Monks are not in the PHB. They have said that they are set on 8 classes in the PHB, and in another interview that there may be up to 11 classes in the PHB.
I played 4e at DDXP. There are eight classes and none of them are the Monk. You can pick up the Races and Classes preview book now. One of my judges at the convention was James Wyatt - one of the main designers for 4E. Monks will not be in the first PHB for 4.0.

MysticTheurge
03-24-2008, 02:54 PM
Nonetheless I can't imagine Turbine having any finalized rules on hand to reference. Isn't it far more likely that Turbine just made chi/ki/qi/whatever bars up?

I think it most likely that WotC is still shopping around 4E concepts.

And honestly, Chi doesn't sound that different from some of the stuff I'm hearing about 4E abilities already, just made more fluid.

RazorrX
03-24-2008, 02:58 PM
First: Cool that you were there, hope you had a blast. Was 4.0 super cool or total bull?

But from what I have read the DDXP was a preview and they had still not finalized the first classes from there. Races and Classes put Paladins in the same section as Monks the 'other classes we are working on'. BUT a paladin was at DDXP as a player class.

As an interested player I have tried to keep up with the information that has been coming out. There are many things that I am really happy to see, and some that suck to me. (Tieflings are not drenai!!!) But so far they have always said that things are still in flux as to the final count, etc.

With that in mind, I am waiting on the book to actually be in hand before I say that Monks are or are not in the first PHB.

KristovK
03-24-2008, 04:01 PM
You really think they are going to be adding all these bonuses to all these items? That is just silly and would be ridiculously overpowered as well. Geez, fire gloves, ice bracers, holy necklace, and bashing helmet? Comon man...


It would be MUCH simplier to just add fistwraps as no one is all that keen to give up an inventory spot that no other class has too.

Ah yes, it's SO much more balanced to add all these things to the weapons Monks can't/don't use as is already done, so why add them to the items and weapons that would benefit the Monk, that wouldn't be balanced at all.

Fistwraps or gloves, it's the same slot and would serve the same function.

Keep in mind, ANYONE can take Improved Unarmed Strike, and while they don't get the same combat abilities with it that a Monk does, they too could use all the same items a Monk could to improve their unarmed combat. There are even classes in 3.5 that are purely unarmed combat based, like the Brawler, who's not a PrC but a base class. That's why there are rules for the creation of items that enhance unarmed combat by adding to hit, damage, elemental damage and special effects to various items.

Invalid_86
03-24-2008, 06:44 PM
I think it most likely that WotC is still shopping around 4E concepts.

And honestly, Chi doesn't sound that different from some of the stuff I'm hearing about 4E abilities already, just made more fluid.

That could be. But we'll find out soon enough. Despite all of the uneven rumors I've heard I'll buy my 4E book as soon as I see it at the local store and give it a look through. I've been playing D&D for 25+ years, I can give them the benefit of the doubt.

Now as to monks having a chi bar in 3.5? Seriously? Come on. This had better be a pretty cool monk for something this silly. Why add a third bar, mess with something that already works fine, and fiddle with a core class?

KristovK
03-24-2008, 10:34 PM
That could be. But we'll find out soon enough. Despite all of the uneven rumors I've heard I'll buy my 4E book as soon as I see it at the local store and give it a look through. I've been playing D&D for 25+ years, I can give them the benefit of the doubt.

Now as to monks having a chi bar in 3.5? Seriously? Come on. This had better be a pretty cool monk for something this silly. Why add a third bar, mess with something that already works fine, and fiddle with a core class?

Chi bar is there because..it's there, design decision based on what worked best at the time in keeping some sort of balance with a class that's notorious for not being balanced in PnP. Might not even make it to Risia for the testing for all we know, could be they decide to redo how Monk abilities work before we ever get to see it, it's just in pre-alpha in the interviews at Connect 08 after all. Hells, the 16th level Monk wasn't even that, it was a 1 Ranger/15 Monk because they couldn't create a Monk at 1st level yet!

As for how balanced and play tested 3/3.5 are...HUH? 3 was released shortly after WoTC got the license, and within a few years they were already putting out 3.5. Now they are about to put out 4. EACH of these was a few years apart from the previous version, none of which were works in progress for any amount of time BEFORE the previous version was released and 4 is STILL a work in progress, publishing date is coming up and they still can't even tell us what to expect for certain? 3 was the update of the old 1st/2nd systems into one coherent whole..sorta kinda, since they combined the old rules and all the various sourcebooks, errata, updates, revisions, magazine articles and club rules into 1 more or less single set of rules. And they quickly realized..oh boy, this is messed up. So they started the 3.5 revisions...which simply took the imbalances from here and moved them over there. Of course, WoTC published huge lists of books for 3 and 3.5, so from a marketing perspective, it was pure genius, they made a fortune off that little trick, still are, and they are about to do it AGAIN! And to make it better, they've made it clear that 4 won't work with 3/3.5, so you HAVE to buy all the new books if you want to use 4! Not only that, but all the core races and classes won't even be in the first books! SOME will be, enough to get started, but if you want all of em, including many of the original core classes and races, you'll have to wait for the extra books to be published and buy those. And..this is the best part, ALL of the classes and races in 3/3.5 will EVENTUALLY be included in the official ruleset for 4. Of course, none of the 3/3.5 stuff works with 4, so you'll have to wait and buy the books with whatever race/class you want to be published before you can use it. I must admit, someone at WoTC is a bloody genius when it comes to marketing. Too bad that kind of genius has never been applied to removing the imbalances so blatant in the rulesets....ah well.