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Big_Russ
03-15-2008, 07:36 PM
I know Superior Two Weapon Fighting was slated for the module, but it looks like it didn't make it in? What exactly happened?

Mad_Bombardier
03-16-2008, 09:43 AM
We don't know exactly. We only know that 5th attack with TWF is automatically right and left hand. And 5th attack with THF automatically gets a free glancing blow. We have the benefits built in. So, IMO, Superior <combat styles> are kind of unnecessary at this point.

Mad_Bombardier
03-16-2008, 09:57 AM
sorry, double post. :o

DasLurch
03-16-2008, 12:55 PM
This probably isn't what you are looking for, but I thought that STWF and STHF are like level 17-18 required feats.

Gornin
03-17-2008, 06:57 AM
STHF and STWF were supposed to be BAB 16 feats and they are unique to DDO. They didn't make it into the game as per the WDA and nothing has been said by the Devs as to what is going on, even though there has been other questions on the subject.

Please let us know the status of these feats Devs.

MysticTheurge
03-17-2008, 07:18 AM
We don't know exactly. We only know that 5th attack with TWF is automatically right and left hand. And 5th attack with THF automatically gets a free glancing blow. We have the benefits built in. So, IMO, Superior <combat styles> are kind of unnecessary at this point.

As it should be.

Missing_Minds
03-17-2008, 07:24 AM
STHF and STWF were supposed to be BAB 16 feats and they are unique to DDO. They didn't make it into the game as per the WDA and nothing has been said by the Devs as to what is going on, even though there has been other questions on the subject.
Please let us know the status of these feats Devs.

STWF is not unique to DDO actually. It was in the splat books. I think what ended up happening is that the feat got mentioned by a dev once and the rest of us jumped on the bandwagon thinking it was going to come out this mod. :( I know I was one of them.

Who knows.. maybe the whole 5th attack slowdown (which never should have happened) caused a quick reversal? I don't know.

MysticTheurge
03-17-2008, 07:31 AM
STWF is not unique to DDO actually. It was in the splat books.

Source?

Cause it's not in the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=superior).

(There is a Superior Two Weapon Fighting ability that some monsters have, which gives them no penalties for wielding two weapons. But that's completely different from what DDO was doing. And it's not a feat, that I know of.)

Aspenor
03-17-2008, 07:43 AM
Source?

Cause it's not in the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=superior).

(There is a Superior Two Weapon Fighting ability that some monsters have, which gives them no penalties for wielding two weapons. But that's completely different from what DDO was doing. And it's not a feat, that I know of.)

IIRC it's an ability gained from having two heads.

studentx
03-17-2008, 07:52 AM
Source?

Cause it's not in the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=superior).

(There is a Superior Two Weapon Fighting ability that some monsters have, which gives them no penalties for wielding two weapons. But that's completely different from what DDO was doing. And it's not a feat, that I know of.)

Thinking of monkey grip maybe?

Missing_Minds
03-17-2008, 07:58 AM
Source?

Cause it's not in the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=superior).

(There is a Superior Two Weapon Fighting ability that some monsters have, which gives them no penalties for wielding two weapons. But that's completely different from what DDO was doing. And it's not a feat, that I know of.)

Call of the Wild, part of the Tempest if I remember correctly. I may be thinking of a non wotc splat book also. Just... toooooo many of those.

Missing_Minds
03-17-2008, 07:58 AM
IIRC it's an ability gained from having two heads.

Thought it was from having 4 or more arms/hands.

Aspenor
03-17-2008, 07:59 AM
Thought it was from having 4 or more arms/hands.

Both??? :confused::confused:

Missing_Minds
03-17-2008, 08:09 AM
Both??? :confused::confused:

Emm... a 4 armed ettin.

....

I think that lowered my IQ. :D

Dimicron
03-17-2008, 08:37 AM
Emm... a 4 armed ettin.

....

I think that lowered my IQ. :D

[Baldur's Gate] "I will crush... crush you to goo!" [/Baldur's Gate]

Gornin
03-17-2008, 08:44 AM
Thought it was from having 4 or more arms/hands.

Multi-attack.

I don't use the d20 3rd party stuff, so it may be in there. IIRC it goes from greater to perfect which is an epic level feat.

Missing_Minds
03-17-2008, 08:58 AM
Multi-attack.

I don't use the d20 3rd party stuff, so it may be in there. IIRC it goes from greater to perfect which is an epic level feat.

Doh.. that is probably what I was getting confused with, but I know the Tempest PrC deffinatly had something along the lines we are getting in DDO.

MysticTheurge
03-17-2008, 09:11 AM
Call of the Wild, part of the Tempest if I remember correctly. I may be thinking of a non wotc splat book also. Just... toooooo many of those.

Call of the Wild is 3.0.

The 3.5 Tempest does get "Superior Two Weapon Fighting" (though I don't recall if it's called that), but again it has nothing to do with getting more attacks, it only removes the penalty you get for wielding two weapons. And it's still not a feat.

Eladrin
03-17-2008, 09:15 AM
Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist.

MysticTheurge
03-17-2008, 09:23 AM
Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist.

Are you still considering or have you come to the conclusion that it is not desirable yet? ;)

Gornin
03-17-2008, 09:24 AM
Thanks for the info E.

EspyLacopa
03-17-2008, 09:28 AM
Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist.

And interestingly enough. . .Neither exist in PnP ^_^

beeofdoom
03-17-2008, 09:42 AM
I don't see Superior THF as being too overpowering, however Superior TWF + Oversized TWF would be too much without adding more desirable feats for melee in general. Just oversized TWF by it self now *is* unbalancing vs the other melee styles. Being able to dual weild kopeshes and heavy picks is already too much.

Just to bring sword and boarders back in line with TWF'ers you'd need to implement Monkey Grip, or at least start implementing some of the advanced fighter/melee feats, Improved CE, improved Power Attack, (Severe Stunning Blow?), so folks have to make some actual choices in their feat selection. It's getting to the point where pure fighters are behind fighter/barb mixes simply because there aren't enough melee feats implemented.

And btw, when are fighters going to get Armor Mastery IV restored to their enhancement line? I've been waiting 3 module releases for a restoration of an enhancement level that *was in game* when I rolled up my 32 point build.

The_Phenx
03-17-2008, 10:02 AM
STWF is not unique to DDO actually. It was in the splat books. I think what ended up happening is that the feat got mentioned by a dev once and the rest of us jumped on the bandwagon thinking it was going to come out this mod. :( I know I was one of them.

Who knows.. maybe the whole 5th attack slowdown (which never should have happened) caused a quick reversal? I don't know.

Feat was in the compendium at game launch. The only irritating thing to me about it is that I planned my toon around it. If they never implement it I wasted a lot of stat points starting with a base 17 dex (19 with +2 tome)... sigh.

And oversize twf isnt overpowering. You could use two large weaps before with only a -2 th and with a pureclass fighter spec'd right that wasnt much of a hinderance. Been dual weilding kopshs since 6th lvl, just have to sue high + weaps to compensate. It did allow for removal of spring attack however and addition of dragonmarks :).

I could care less about superior if they would give me a reason for having stayed pure fighter... like maybe a crit multiplier or crit range enhancement like say the pure barbs got at lvl 14.

The_Phenx
03-17-2008, 10:05 AM
Just to bring sword and boarders back in line with TWF'ers you'd need to implement Monkey Grip,

Hate to say it but... sword and board is about ac... not dps.. they aren't supposed to keep up. The trade off for less damage is more survivability.

EspyLacopa
03-17-2008, 10:10 AM
Being able to dual weild kopeshes and heavy picks is already too much.

Meh.

Dual Wield Heavy Picks: 1d6 for 20/x4 crit
Dual Wield Light Picks: 1d4 for 20/x4 crit

Spend a feat and gain 1 average point of damage. That's even less than Weapon Spec.

As for the Khopesh. . .That's two feats spent. One for the proficiency, another for the oversized TWF. One feat gives higher crit mod (x3 over x2), the other gives 1 avg damage (equivalent of going from Shortsword 1d6 to Longsword 1d8)

Sounds fair enough for the investment required.

DareDelvis
03-17-2008, 12:11 PM
Feat was in the compendium at game launch. The only irritating thing to me about it is that I planned my toon around it. If they never implement it I wasted a lot of stat points starting with a base 17 dex (19 with +2 tome)... sigh.

Exactly, +2 favor tome, +1 stat point at level 16, starting dex of 16...

Nothing is really ever game breaking but it is dissappointing to base a character around supposition that was thought to be closer to fact.

EspyLacopa
03-17-2008, 01:12 PM
Exactly, +2 favor tome, +1 stat point at level 16, starting dex of 16...

Nothing is really ever game breaking but it is dissappointing to base a character around supposition that was thought to be closer to fact.

I still find it odd how they didn't do proper Dex requirements for GTWF. It's actually supposed to require 19 dexterity.

MysticTheurge
03-17-2008, 01:16 PM
You do end up with an extra feat though.

Even if you "wasted" a few stat points.

Jhoran
03-17-2008, 01:20 PM
"Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist."

ouch.

wonder if i will end up regretting the 19 dex on my twf barb that i've been levelling these past few weeks

Xaxx
03-17-2008, 01:30 PM
If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?

If they aren't putting it in the game, or even were ever debating about putting it in, why would any information be given on the specifics needed to obtain it. When someone comes out and gives me the required stats to obtain something, thats saying *ok this is comming heres how ya get it, go ahead and wait* Considering how close to the vest the devs for this game pretty much keep the details of everything close to the vest and only give us glimpses of future stuff, whenever someone comes strait out and says "heres how you get this" and then not implimenting it..... not exactly the best message to be sending your gamers. "ok guys heres some info *snicker* yeah we're gonna add *snort* a new *ROFL*..... while next they say *oh im sorry we cant give you any info except to say that there MIGHT be *yadayada* comming within the next few years.

good community relations there

Angelus_dead
03-17-2008, 01:31 PM
I don't see Superior THF as being too overpowering, however Superior TWF + Oversized TWF would be too much without adding more desirable feats for melee in general. Just oversized TWF by it self now *is* unbalancing vs the other melee styles. Being able to dual weild kopeshes and heavy picks is already too much.
That's wrong. Oversized TWF has minimal effect on balance. Arguably, it is a mistake to even select that feat.

The result of taking the feat is you gain +2 on attack rolls when using a heavy weapon in the left hand. Compare it to the Weapon Focus feat, which gives you +1 on attack rolls regardless of weapon size. The majority of non-fighter characters do not consider it worthwhile to spend a feat on Weapon Focus to get +1, so spending a feat on OTWF for +2 is only slightly better.

In general, DDO has an increasing iterative-attack bonus which means that feats to increase your attack rolls are not worth it.

Gornin
03-17-2008, 01:31 PM
If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?

If they aren't putting it in the game, or even were ever debating about putting it in, why would any information be given on the specifics needed to obtain it. When someone comes out and gives me the required stats to obtain something, thats saying *ok this is comming heres how ya get it, go ahead and wait* Considering how close to the vest the devs for this game pretty much keep the details of everything close to the vest and only give us glimpses of future stuff, whenever someone comes strait out and says "heres how you get this" and then not implimenting it..... not exactly the best message to be sending your gamers. "ok guys heres some info *snicker* yeah we're gonna add *snort* a new *ROFL*..... while next they say *oh im sorry we cant give you any info except to say that there MIGHT be *yadayada* comming within the next few years.

good community relations there

Not trying to picka fight with you here, just an observation. There was quite a bit of community outcry on these 2 feats due to the fact they are not DnD feats and the requirements were previously unknown and a few other things, so maybe the Devs were listening and thats why the are re-evaluating them. An answer sooner than today would have been better, but I am glad to have an answer.

I seriously doubt there were any shenanigans on the Devs part as they wouldn't have said they were going to do something and knowingly not going to follow through.

MysticTheurge
03-17-2008, 01:34 PM
If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?

If they aren't putting it in the game, or even were ever debating about putting it in, why would any information be given on the specifics needed to obtain it.

good community relations there

I suspect they actually started debating it once they announced it on the Forums and got no small amount of feedback that adding such a feat would be a bad idea.

Which means that yes, that was good community relations.

Gornin
03-17-2008, 01:41 PM
I suspect they actually started debating it once they announced it on the Forums and got no small amount of feedback that adding such a feat would be a bad idea.

Which means that yes, that was good community relations.

Stop agreeing with me :D, it makes you look bad.

Angelus_dead
03-17-2008, 01:44 PM
If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?
Every time a game rule is changed, regardless of whether the rule had already been in effect or merely had been announced, the devs should give free respec tokens to all effected player characters.

DDO does not have the technical mechanism to respec stats, class levels, or skill points- but it should. Then the devs would be able to fix mistakes in the game rules without worrying that they'll upset players who already made irrevocable character choices based on the older rules.

JFeenstra
03-17-2008, 02:02 PM
Source?

Cause it's not in the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=superior).

(There is a Superior Two Weapon Fighting ability that some monsters have, which gives them no penalties for wielding two weapons. But that's completely different from what DDO was doing. And it's not a feat, that I know of.)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=Perfect%20Two-Weapon%20Fighting

it's 'perfect' not 'superior'

EspyLacopa
03-17-2008, 02:05 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=Perfect%20Two-Weapon%20Fighting (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=Perfect&#37;20Two-Weapon%20Fighting)

it's 'perfect' not 'superior'

That's also an Epic Level Feat:




Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterTwoWeaponFighting), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTwoWeaponFighting), Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting).

Benefit
You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.

Normal
Without this feat, you can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if you have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTwoWeaponFighting), or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if you have Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterTwoWeaponFighting)).

Laith
03-17-2008, 02:06 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=Perfect&#37;20Two-Weapon%20Fighting

it's 'perfect' not 'superior'
actually, perfect TWF only has to do with the NUMBER of swings you get, not the two-weapon penalties (to-hit).

we already have perfect TWF now, once you purchase greater TWF. once you have gTWF, you swing you offhand with every attack animation (moving or standing).

this change occured in mod6, which is why i'm surprised that people complain about sTWF not coming: we HAVE the bonus it was going to give, but didn't have to pay a feat for it.

i have to assume the same for sTHF, but i can't confirm. are you guys getting glancing blows on your last animation?

EspyLacopa
03-17-2008, 02:11 PM
actually, perfect TWF only has to do with the NUMBER of swings you get, not the two-weapon penalties (to-hit).

we already have perfect TWF now, once you purchase greater TWF. once you have gTWF, you swing you offhand with every attack animation (moving or standing).

this change occured in mod6, which is why i'm surprised that people complain about sTWF not coming: we HAVE the bonus it was going to give, but didn't have to pay a feat for it.

i have to assume the same for sTHF, but i can't confirm. are you guys getting glancing blows on your last animation?

Sure. But what if we get yet another extra attack at BAB +20?

GeneralDiomedes
03-17-2008, 02:47 PM
Well, not unless they add the 'Extra Head' feat first as a prereq.

Extra Head

Your personality splits in two and manifests as a second head. After a brief argument and an agreement to floss regularly, each head decides to control the nearest arm. Your type changes to Aberration.

Prerequisite: Schizophrenia. Wide shoulders would be a bonus.

MysticTheurge
03-17-2008, 03:06 PM
Sure. But what if we get yet another extra attack at BAB +20?

Then all would be right with the world. (Or at least with Two Weapon Fighting in DDO.)

And you would pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting as an Epic Feat.

Laith
03-17-2008, 04:59 PM
Sure. But what if we get yet another extra attack at BAB +20?


you would pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting as an Epic Feat.

bingo.

who knows what kind of dex that would require though (dex25 in PnP)... it IS epic though, which has stat raising feats.
in any case, they already GAVE us what sTWF was originally going to give us. for free. it's odd that so few seemed to notice.

beeofdoom
03-17-2008, 07:02 PM
Meh.

Dual Wield Heavy Picks: 1d6 for 20/x4 crit
Dual Wield Light Picks: 1d4 for 20/x4 crit

Spend a feat and gain 1 average point of damage. That's even less than Weapon Spec.

As for the Khopesh. . .That's two feats spent. One for the proficiency, another for the oversized TWF. One feat gives higher crit mod (x3 over x2), the other gives 1 avg damage (equivalent of going from Shortsword 1d6 to Longsword 1d8)

Sounds fair enough for the investment required.

That's a serious oversimplification of what Oversized 2-weapon fighting gives you. Aside from the moderate increase in damage from weilding a full-sized 1-handed weapon, you're also NOT taking the additional -2 to-hit penalty in the off hand for every single full-sized 1-handed weapon in game. In terms of only damage output, no, it's not all that unbalancing, however a single feat that effectively grants an off-hand +2 to hit with longsword, scimitar, kopesh, heavy mace, morningstar, heavy pick, warhammer, etc...PLUS not having to look for finessable versions of weapons that complement your main hand weapon is too good to pass up. It's on-par with the ill-proposed Weapon Alarcity feat that was for sword and board tanks.

EspyLacopa
03-17-2008, 07:36 PM
That's a serious oversimplification of what Oversized 2-weapon fighting gives you. Aside from the moderate increase in damage from weilding a full-sized 1-handed weapon, you're also NOT taking the additional -2 to-hit penalty in the off hand for every single full-sized 1-handed weapon in game. In terms of only damage output, no, it's not all that unbalancing, however a single feat that effectively grants an off-hand +2 to hit with longsword, scimitar, kopesh, heavy mace, morningstar, heavy pick, warhammer, etc...PLUS not having to look for finessable versions of weapons that complement your main hand weapon is too good to pass up. It's on-par with the ill-proposed Weapon Alarcity feat that was for sword and board tanks.

Heavy Pick(1d6) combo with Light Pick(1d4): -2 dual wield penalty
Heavy Pick(1d6) combo with Heavy Pick(1d6) and OTWF: -2 dual wield penalty

Dwarven axe(1d10) combo with Handaxe(1d6): -2 dual wield penalty
Dwarven axe(1d10) combo with Dwarven axe(1d10) and OTWF: -2 dual wield penalty

Warhammer(1d8) combo with Light Hammer(1d4): -2 dual wield penalty
Warhammer(1d8) combo with Warhammer(1d8) and OTWF: -2 dual wield penalty

So. . .spend a feat and you up the damage of your off-hand weapon by 1-3 average points of damage per hit.

Finesse weapons? Unless you're talking Rapiers, they are ALL light, and as such can all be used as off-hand weapons w/o needing Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. And if you are. . .you're upgrading a Shortsword (1d6, 19-20 crit) to Rapier (1d6, 18-20 crit). That's only an increase of 1 to the crit range of the offhand weapon. That is where the balance is aimed, not at this perceived "+2 on all attacks!" nonsense.

Angelus_dead
03-17-2008, 08:01 PM
So. . .spend a feat and you up the damage of your off-hand weapon by 1-3 average points of damage per hit.
The big advantage of OTWF is you can use an offhand weapon which has no similar equivalent in a light version: a khopesh instead of a kukri, or the Deathnip instead of a light pick.

However, large numbers of TWF barbarians were already using dual khopesh or dual deathnip before module 6. They soaked up the -2 attack penalty, and they could still choose to do so. OTWF doesn't improve damage very much.

Xithos
03-18-2008, 06:58 AM
"Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist."

ouch.

wonder if i will end up regretting the 19 dex on my twf barb that i've been levelling these past few weeks

I am definitely regretting starting my new ranger with 17 Dex; I could have dropped to 16 and bumped up my strength further. It seems that a few others like ourselves took a hit from mismanaged game development :D

Big_Russ
03-18-2008, 07:31 AM
Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist.

Thanks for the clarification, Eladrin.

Just my two CP, but it is DEFINITELY desirable for them to exist. With HP inflation what it has been, this will help most melee classes get a little closer to casters in game.

MysticTheurge
03-18-2008, 08:07 AM
Just my two CP, but it is DEFINITELY desirable for them to exist. With HP inflation what it has been, this will help most melee classes get a little closer to casters in game.

While it is desirable for the announced effects of these two feats to exist, it is 100% undesirable for them to be attached to new, additional feats.

D&D requires a certain number of feats to be a fully proficient two weapon fighter. Since DDO does not offer people more feats than D&D it should not require more feats than D&D.

Big_Russ
03-19-2008, 07:15 AM
To heck with TWF fighters--I'm concerned about my 12 Ranger/4 Fighter Tempest build. ;)

Seriously, I was really looking forward to taking STWF at 15 or 16 (both fighter levels for me). I had the spot for it. I ended up taking extend and Spring Attack (Spring Attack was planned--I decided on extend for buff reasons).

I really hope you add it back for future mods.