PDA

View Full Version : Fix Mr. Abbot



Jefro
03-15-2008, 06:14 AM
Abbot rarely if ever gets run anymore. They still need to slow down the asteriods and floor puzzle perhaps add static floor pieces so easier to guide them across. They also should make the encasement vanish eventually, nothing worse then using your ice wand and can't get back out due to a encasement stone blocking path back. Plus encasement shouldn't reach out into the water :p
By lowering the bar a little more maybe it be alot more playable and even puggable.

Mhykke
03-15-2008, 09:28 AM
By lowering the bar a little more maybe it be alot more playable and even puggable.

And enjoyable.

/signed

Angelus_dead
03-15-2008, 10:00 AM
Hey devs, drop me a PM. I will come to your office and fix the Abbot for you.

When I'm done, it won't be perfect, but I'll advance the player reaction out of "Worst quest ever" and move it into "Somewhat disappointed" territory.

Jack_No.7
03-15-2008, 01:19 PM
the asteroid room needs to be altered to have less asteroids that are more visible and higher tragectories(35degrees or more from the platform).. no asteroid should come in flush with the platform... the tile room needs to be altered to have the barriers altered in a way that u can actually c ur teammate if hes on the 3rd or 4th tile row back. other then that.... the abbot shouldnt be able to attack anyone off of the platform in the main room , period.

ice room is perfect
platform fights are fine

i personnally hate the asteroid room, i dont even believe the devs beat it themselves before releasing it to testers to c if it was possible, but thats me. they called hanging off the ledge a legit tactic? from the japanese... so i guess they could have used that.

KIELBASEE555
03-15-2008, 02:34 PM
being that 90 percent of the public is either in the vale- shroud runs, in giant hold doing reaver runs or doing tap runs in house P necropolis, i've never seen this place. Is this the place where you could get into If you finished what is in the orchards?? or is this part of the wizard king? or is it the big castle in the house J grave yard north of dead girls spell book? there are some places that have become tabo quest's, where everyone just avoids. maybee i should get my duckee and try to goto the abbot, to witness this mess.

KIELBASEE555
03-15-2008, 02:44 PM
I have this lvl 13 fighter warforge. his favor list is averga, but has a LOT of lvl 10's Most 11's and 12's quest's completly undone. once he could get into the orchards and get the tap helmets the von's have been ignored. i would like to see a poll set up most of the new charactors getting to lvl 12 for the first time. how many people have the all the lvl 10's and 11's done on normal? how many peope are treating these quest's as fly-over country and avoiding them, while they LIVE in the orchards for 2-3 lvls?

Angelus_dead
03-15-2008, 02:59 PM
Hey devs, drop me a PM. I will come to your office and fix the Abbot for you.
Seriously devs.

If you think the Abbot raid is OK right now, that's wrong, and I can explain why.
Or if you think the Abbot raid is of lower priority than other things you're working on, that's also wrong, and I can tell you why.

To not fix the Abbot after so many months just does not make sense.

kaelis
03-15-2008, 03:04 PM
I think the raid should be fixed as well, but i also think some people posting push the dev's a little to much, saying to a game maker they NEED to do something is exactly the way to see it not done, give suggestions but don't try to tell the devs how to make their game it just might tick them off once in a while :P

Lorien_the_First_One
03-15-2008, 04:00 PM
Didn't they eliminate the Abbot quest from the game? I haven't heard of anyone running it in ...well...months...

gpk
03-15-2008, 05:18 PM
I think the raid should be fixed as well, but i also think some people posting push the dev's a little to much, saying to a game maker they NEED to do something is exactly the way to see it not done[...]

I'm not sure if you're beign sarcastic or not, but I think we need to give the devs a little more credit in this instance, they are paid professionals and we are the clients.
I doubt very much they see a post by, oh say me, and go "well gpk hurt my feelings let's teach him a lesson and not fix the abbot raid !".
Edit: Actually this raises an interesting question, if the coders and desingers don't see the posts themselves, do the forum monitors report relevant posts to them? Or do they go "unnoticed" because someone perceived them as being "impolite"?

The topic brought up several times before "politely" and the only area we saw any tangible improvement was the ice puzzle. Many players spent many hours to give very good feedback and 90% of it has gone ignored.

There has been more than one patch to the raid as well, and 5 months later to not have a properly working mod5 raid is a crying shame to say the least.

Mhykke
03-15-2008, 05:20 PM
Hey devs, drop me a PM. I will come to your office and fix the Abbot for you.

When I'm done, it won't be perfect, but I'll advance the player reaction out of "Worst quest ever" and move it into "Somewhat disappointed" territory.


I'll pay for the airfare.

Torosar
03-15-2008, 08:32 PM
I'll pay for the airfare.

I'll pay accomodation!

Knightrose
03-15-2008, 11:03 PM
I just spent the last hour learning the Abbot.

It's extremely easy. Just takes some mechanical coordination.

I guess teaching it to newcomers, or new puggers would be cause for some restarting. But otherwise its very straightforward and completable.

Put more effort into it and stop whining. Would be my suggestion to those who are upset.

It's by far my new favorite quest. Some of the Devs, I'm sure, don't like most of my posts but I'll give them props for this raid.

The Shroud might have crafting and loot, but Abbot is actually fun to play.

Angelus_dead
03-15-2008, 11:10 PM
I just spent the last hour learning the Abbot.
It's extremely easy. Just takes some mechanical coordination.
So um, how many times did you beat the Abbot yet?

Torosar
03-15-2008, 11:50 PM
I just spent the last hour learning the Abbot.

It's extremely easy. Just takes some mechanical coordination.


And how many times have you heard of people beating it since it was implemented as it currently is?

Those few who have had to spend an extraordinary amount of time trying to win and had to resort to have cheap tricks all work in succession in the same run to win. I would advise for you to read up on the topic a little more.

Riminy
03-16-2008, 02:20 AM
Edit: Torosar and Angelus made their point for Knightrose

Bradik_Losdar
03-16-2008, 03:04 AM
Yes devs, please do something to fix the Abbot raid. It truely is unplayable by 99% of the player base - what a horrible waste.

Those that have beat it spent weeks paracticing the puzzles, and then by their own admission got lucky with the quest not lagging at just the wrong moment. If these two things alone don't cry 'broken' - I sure don't know what would!!!

gpk
03-16-2008, 06:30 AM
I just spent the last hour learning the Abbot.

It's extremely easy. Just takes some mechanical coordination.

I guess teaching it to newcomers, or new puggers would be cause for some restarting. But otherwise its very straightforward and completable.

Put more effort into it and stop whining. Would be my suggestion to those who are upset.

It's by far my new favorite quest. Some of the Devs, I'm sure, don't like most of my posts but I'll give them props for this raid.

The Shroud might have crafting and loot, but Abbot is actually fun to play.

Wow an hour!

Seriously, do keep us posted with screenshots of victories, loot and "tactics" used on asteroids and other areas.
Notice the quotes around "tactics" ?

Lifespawn
03-16-2008, 07:57 AM
And how many times have you heard of people beating it since it was implemented as it currently is?

Those few who have had to spend an extraordinary amount of time trying to win and had to resort to have cheap tricks all work in succession in the same run to win. I would advise for you to read up on the topic a little more.

please get your facts straight while it took us alot of practice we used no cheap tricks to be the abbot recently.

Hendrik
03-16-2008, 08:40 AM
Instead of whining and accusing others of cheating because you cannot run it, why not put forth some effort in addressing specific issues with the Abbot. Only seen a couple posts here that even come close in attempting that, rest is all whining. Can always try for some DEV answer to specific questions - some of these things might be bugs.

But, if people would rather rant, rave, and whine in "Fix This" thread then offer ideas, solutions, and ask direct questions then it is no wonder the Abbott does not get the attention some are requesting. I'd pass right over these type threads if I was a DEV and not surprised at all if they do the same, espically when people claim they can come do the DEV's job better or for them.

I'll even help/start;

1. Should Encasement happen any other place besides the main platform?
2. Still experiencing targetting issues with the Ice Wand. Isles appearing underwater or not at all.

Kalanth
03-16-2008, 09:02 AM
People even still consider this raid? I had given up on running it ages ago. The raid was bad, the items were worse. It's a raid that needs revision or removal.

Angelus_dead
03-16-2008, 09:16 AM
Only seen a couple posts here that even come close in attempting that, rest is all whining.
Your having missed them doesn't mean they didn't exist. Posts with concrete suggestions were more common back a reasonable time after the Abbot raid was released. After so much time has passed, the question has changed from "How can the devs fix the Abbot?" to "Will the devs even try to fix the Abbot?"


I'd pass right over these type threads if I was a DEV and not surprised at all if they do the same, espically when people claim they can come do the DEV's job better or for them.
You are mischaracterizing my quote. I didn't say I could do this better than the devs... I said I could do it better than nobody, which is what we have now. If they tried, the real devs could fix it better than me.

But they're not trying. Apparently they're locked into an old project schedule, and the budgeted time for Module 5 fixes didn't allow for more than one round of changes. By now they all must have been pushed to working on Monks or some such. It's a managerial error to keep pushing on new stuff when the old stuff is still unfinished, but I can see why people make those mistakes. They're valuing potential customers above real customers- adding features generates press releases that get you blurbs on the gaming websites, but fixing bugs does not.


1. Should Encasement happen any other place besides the main platform?
You are correct that it seems strange for Encasement to occur off the main platform. However, restricting Encasement to the platform would make the quest a lot harder. Increasing Abbot difficulty isn't a good idea at this time.



2. Still experiencing targetting issues with the Ice Wand. Isles appearing underwater or not at all.
Hilarious. The Ice Wand is not a problem compared to the other "puzzles" in that quest. Players who try seriously achieve 90% ice success within 20 minutes of practice, and over 95% success with an hour.

Oh no, the real targetting "issues" (euphemism for bugs) show their face in the Asteroids puzzle.

Gruntus
03-16-2008, 01:44 PM
We have a guild core 6 man group thats been hitting this raid very hard lately. We decided that after Mod6 it would be beatable. WRONG. Just thought I'de put our guilds two cents in.

The ice challenge is actually pretty cool. Doesn't seem to bug much anymore and if it does there is usually something we could have done to avoid it. IMO nothing there needs to be changed.

The meteor challange is a joke. The meteors come so fast and so frequently that there's no chance of survival. Even with Haste and fighters haste boosts you have no shot. I would have to agree with whoever said that the Devs never beat that challange before they released it. If the meteors would come half as frequent we might have a shot. I dont agree that the challenge is made to be beaten by hanging off the side, or spawning mobs, dispelling them and then flesh to stone them for protection from the meteor shower. Creative Yes, but not the way it should be.

The Phase tile room is also a joke. If you dont get a lucky pattern on the first two rows you have no shot(as if you have a shot when you get the first 2 rows lol). Ive taken a few people in there that have so-so computers and they cant even see the player when he's lined up with the last row. As many times as we've run that quest for practice we've only made it across the first section once. And then having to get back across lmao, yeah right. I would suggest making 3 larger rows instead of 4. And then making certain tiles(maybe 2 per row) stationary so you have spots to plan for and can adjust your position on the tiles to keep going. Also, we figure the only way to successfully run back and forth, would be to have two computers next to each other(like the Japanese group in the sweat shop that took it down) so you can accuratly navigate by shadowing the other person. We run into slight problems with latencys between each other that slightly cause a delay in fluent character movement. This quest doesnt allow for that without failier because the tiles are too small and phase in and out too quickly.


So we only go in this raid with a static 6 man group. Its totally counter-productive to run this raid full, as people just dont get enough practice at the puzzles to make a real run for it. So lets just say you happen to beat all these puzzles, buff up and head through portals to resume the fight, HERE COMES THE INFERNO lol. So we use these nifty ice wands and cast an 8 second ice island to stand on over the acid lake. So Mr Abbott realises that he cant melee you so he entrapts you in rock, then the 8 second ice island wears off and you fall in the acid. Now we're down to 5 man group. At this point you are running low on resources and buffing makes no sense because you constantly get dispelled. Is this a sick joke you wonder? Are there really Devs this badass that can get a group of 12 of them together and knock this out and then say..."yeah, average players shoud get this no problem"? it is quite discouraging to run something so much and be no closer to beating it as you were before. We get through Ice every time, 1 out of 2 times exploiting the meteor shower and NEVER make it trough the Phase puzzle.

Even if this raid is tuned down as suggested it will still take a really great group to have any shot of beating it. This raid will never be for the average pug, but some tweaking might make it a fun challenge for well communicating guilds groups.

DEVS PLEASE HELP US!!

Gruntis
Officer in - The Hand of The Black Tower - Khyber

oronisi
03-16-2008, 02:51 PM
I think the raid should be fixed as well, but i also think some people posting push the dev's a little to much, saying to a game maker they NEED to do something is exactly the way to see it not done, give suggestions but don't try to tell the devs how to make their game it just might tick them off once in a while :P

As a paying customer you DO have the right to demand things from the person you are paying. I don't go to the automechanic and say 'hey, I would like a new muffler and it'd be cool if you could paint it black' only to have the mechanic say 'well hows about I just take the muffler off, look it sounds like a motorcylce, and paint it red with flames because that's cooler'. You are paying him. You get to tell him what you want and if he can't do it, you get to take your business elsewhere.

As long as we are paying we DO have the right to say 'fix the Abbot because it's broke and wasted content'. And seeing as game developers shouldn't want their names associated with ****, they should want to fix it.

How'd you like to take the Abbot raid in with you as your resume for a job interview?

popltree2
03-16-2008, 02:55 PM
Yeah and wasnt the loot supposed to be upgraded also, havent seen this yet either.

Angelus_dead
03-16-2008, 03:02 PM
Yeah and wasnt the loot supposed to be upgraded also, havent seen this yet either.
The reason you haven't seen the upgraded loot is because players haven't been winning the quest. A small number of players have beaten it a small number of times, which was enough to learn that the Abbot Robe had 25% fortification added to it. Possibly they have also found other items which were not improved, and didn't publicize it.

Of course, the separate problem is that there is only one chest in the Abbot raid, compared to four chests in the shorter and easier Reaver raid. It also hasn't been fixed.

Qzipoun
03-16-2008, 03:17 PM
From my recent experience with the Abbot, it is clearly possible and much easier than it used to be. The issue though is you need to spend a lot of time to train people for it. Pretty much every time I join a group attempting it at LEAST one person says "first time in here", well that's a guaranteed failure right there if they get teleported to a puzzle.

There are two ways to fix this, either you spend hours training them but then right when they become good at it they have to leave or you get another person you need to train which doesn't get you anywhere. The second option is you put an LFM up for "experienced only" which will get you a decent group and will allow you to complete it but might take ages to fill. I know enough people on Sarlona that can get together and beat it, but how much time and effort do I have to spend tracking these people down and getting them in my group?

Later tonight on Sarlona I will try an "experienced only" group and see how many people out there do know the quest well, but even if we beat it, what about the other 99.99% of the playerbase? Do they not get to run the quest?

gpk
03-16-2008, 07:33 PM
Instead of whining and accusing others of cheating because you cannot run it, why not put forth some effort in addressing specific issues with the Abbot. Only seen a couple posts here that even come close in attempting that, rest is all whining. Can always try for some DEV answer to specific questions - some of these things might be bugs.

But, if people would rather rant, rave, and whine in "Fix This" thread then offer ideas, solutions, and ask direct questions then it is no wonder the Abbott does not get the attention some are requesting. I'd pass right over these type threads if I was a DEV and not surprised at all if they do the same, espically when people claim they can come do the DEV's job better or for them.



There have been numerous threads full of good concrete actual gameplay based fanboi-free feedback.

Have you've already forgotten the threads to which you replied ?
Do a quick search on posts by you with keyword "abbot" for a refresher.



I'll even help/start;
1. Should Encasement happen any other place besides the main platform?
2. Still experiencing targetting issues with the Ice Wand. Isles appearing underwater or not at all.

That is just hilarious because your 2 little points have been brought up numerous times in the threads you don't seem to think exist; again threads you participated in.

Auran82
03-16-2008, 08:39 PM
Yeah and wasnt the loot supposed to be upgraded also, havent seen this yet either.

About 4 or 5 items have been seen since the items were upgraded. The only change was for the the Shroud of the Abbot.

Old Version:
Robe, Armor Bonus +4, Natural Armor Bonus +4, Boon to Undeath*, Greater Fire Resistance, Superior Void Lore, Superior Lightning Lore

Super upgraded version:
Robe, Armor Bonus +4, Natural Armor Bonus +4, Boon to Undeath*, Greater Fire Resistance, Superior Void Lore, Superior Lightning Lore, Light Fortification

Other than that, none of the seen items have changed.

Gruntus
03-17-2008, 12:06 AM
From my recent experience with the Abbot, it is clearly possible and much easier than it used to be. The issue though is you need to spend a lot of time to train people for it. Pretty much every time I join a group attempting it at LEAST one person says "first time in here", well that's a guaranteed failure right there if they get teleported to a puzzle.

There are two ways to fix this, either you spend hours training them but then right when they become good at it they have to leave or you get another person you need to train which doesn't get you anywhere. The second option is you put an LFM up for "experienced only" which will get you a decent group and will allow you to complete it but might take ages to fill. I know enough people on Sarlona that can get together and beat it, but how much time and effort do I have to spend tracking these people down and getting them in my group?

Later tonight on Sarlona I will try an "experienced only" group and see how many people out there do know the quest well, but even if we beat it, what about the other 99.99% of the playerbase? Do they not get to run the quest?


That really is impressive to me. This raid has fought us so much and we have such a hard time with the Phase room. I would love to hear some stratagies or ideas on what we are doing wrong. Thats awesome that you guys can take it down though. No one on Khyber has beaten it yet other than by exploiting it. Thanks!

Riminy
03-17-2008, 02:31 AM
From my recent experience with the Abbot, it is clearly possible and much easier than it used to be. The issue though is you need to spend a lot of time to train people for it. Pretty much every time I join a group attempting it at LEAST one person says "first time in here", well that's a guaranteed failure right there if they get teleported to a puzzle.

There are two ways to fix this, either you spend hours training them but then right when they become good at it they have to leave or you get another person you need to train which doesn't get you anywhere. The second option is you put an LFM up for "experienced only" which will get you a decent group and will allow you to complete it but might take ages to fill. I know enough people on Sarlona that can get together and beat it, but how much time and effort do I have to spend tracking these people down and getting them in my group?

Later tonight on Sarlona I will try an "experienced only" group and see how many people out there do know the quest well, but even if we beat it, what about the other 99.99% of the playerbase? Do they not get to run the quest?

It is certainly possible. But its how you define possible. Do you need to exploit? Do you have to use cheap tricks to avoid asteroid? With complete luck and knowledge of the puzzles you might get your completion. Ok but the problems with the abbot are endless.

Lets start with the Asteroid puzzle. As of my knowledge, this has not been beaten by destroying every possible asteroid (Yes to my knowledge, I do not know everything :)). Ok so its been failed 100,000 times across the DDO world. This one is clearly impossible without using "tricks". There are far too many asteroids and they are too fast. Not to mention when there are NO asteroids and i seem to still get knocked off.

Lets move on to lag. Not everyone in DDO is from the USA, I cannot stress that enough. So say a person from australia or somewhere else on the otherside of the planet is in the abbot, goodluck to him. Yeah I am not from USA and i can honestly say, i lag every second jump i do, even if im not in the abbot. I can also do ice puzzle 99% of the time with the lag (You kind of get used to it).

Ok now the tile puzzle. Now this is surely possible (a few % chance of actually winning). It requires minimal lag (once again this is important) and maximum teamwork. It literally has to be flawless on both players part and yeah you have to do it twice. Once would be more fair.

Is it that we need practice or that the abbot is just unbeatable without "tricks". Because i tried the practice part, many, many, many times.

Heres a new LFM for your Abbot: Looking for players only from USA with fibre optics. Must know "tricks" and must be very experienced!

Torosar
03-17-2008, 04:28 AM
please get your facts straight while it took us alot of practice we used no cheap tricks to be the abbot recently.

So i suppose when you won the asteroid puzzle you beat it by actually throwing boulders..?

Lifespawn
03-17-2008, 04:36 AM
yes along with a helpful earth ellie to cover my back

Riminy
03-17-2008, 04:47 AM
yes along with a helpful earth ellie to cover my back

But you didnt beat it on your own, you needed help right? Do you have to summon an earth elemental everytime or can you do it without? Is this to say we must all summon them to win? I dont think this was intended and I indeed consider this a "trick".

Torosar
03-17-2008, 04:50 AM
yes along with a helpful earth ellie to cover my back

The way which summoned monsters are used on the asteroid puzzle was included in my earlier "cheap tricks" statement. Do you think using them that way is the intention the devs wanted when they presented the challenge of giving you 50 boulders and several waves of of asteroids coming towards you on a small platform? Summoning monsters that give you some advantage that you shouldnt otherwise have in a raid is a cheap trick as far as im concerned i.e The Shroud.

stockwizard5
03-17-2008, 09:00 AM
So I think this may be the easiest way to think about this ...

The Mod5 Raid has puzzles; the Mod6 Raid has puzzles.

One of these things is not like the other. We can debate "solvers out" and if it is challenging enough but the Abbot puzzles are orders of magnitude out of line with anything else in the game.

Aspenor
03-17-2008, 09:10 AM
So I think this may be the easiest way to think about this ...

The Mod5 Raid has puzzles; the Mod6 Raid has puzzles.

One of these things is not like the other. We can debate "solvers out" and if it is challenging enough but the Abbot puzzles are orders of magnitude out of line with anything else in the game.

And the loot is well....

Meh

Memnir
03-17-2008, 09:41 AM
For me it's a PITA vs. Reward factor.
The drops from the Abbot raid are by and large not worth the utter aggravation of attaining them - so why beat my head against a punishingly designed quest for lackluster rewards? I have better things to do with my $15 a month than to try to bludgeon my way past this raid just to say I've done so - things that involve having fun and enjoying what I'm playing. Right now, the Abbot raid fails on those two key factors.

Apply all the fixes you want... but if it's still not fun, I'm still not going to bother with it.

Rekker
03-17-2008, 09:53 AM
Instead of changing the Abbot raid itself, how about letting us have the ability to practice the puzzles without being in the quest. Add them to the PvP area where you talk to the guy to do CTF. That way you can put a group together, go in and practice the puzzle of your choice.

Angelus_dead
03-17-2008, 11:00 AM
Instead of changing the Abbot raid itself, how about letting us have the ability to practice the puzzles without being in the quest. Add them to the PvP area where you talk to the guy to do CTF. That way you can put a group together, go in and practice the puzzle of your choice.
Adding such a thing would be admitting the puzzles are broken.

Also, adding it wouldn't really help in terms of completing the raid. But, it would help generate more accurate critiques of the raid! Right now we get occasional players defending the Abbot raid because they haven't tried it enough to know that it's broken. Adding puzzle practice would accelerate the process of players learning that the puzzles are unreasonable, which would prevent [edit: disagreements]

Rekker
03-17-2008, 11:08 AM
Adding such a thing would be admitting the puzzles are broken.

It wouldn't admit that the puzzles are broken. It would just be another way to practice without running the quest. I know 1 of the puzzles. If I got sent to one of the others I would be worthless. This would let me learn the others ones instead of me running the quest 20 times hoping I get sent to one I don't know so I can learn it.

gpk
03-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Apply all the fixes you want... but if it's still not fun,[...]

See thats the thing, in it's original version the raid actually WAS fun, at least for me it was (without the then optional puzzles that is).
There was a lot happening that required the party to be on it's toes and to me it was the most fun and dynamic Raid fight since one the Lailat Raid versions. None of the other raid battles had the same feel the original Abbot did , fun , frantic, dynamic and no real room for "spectator" players; everyone had a role to play. I'm just glad I got to win it a few times before the patches killed it.

It's a shame after the 2nd patch failed to fix the raid after the 1st one broke it they just didn't put back the original raid with the modified puzzles (as optionals) and moved on rather than leaving it broken for what , 5 months now? I guess that would have been admitting defeat...

Zaodon
03-17-2008, 12:30 PM
I just spent the last hour learning the Abbot.
It's extremely easy. Just takes some mechanical coordination.
I guess teaching it to newcomers, or new puggers would be cause for some restarting. But otherwise its very straightforward and completable.
Put more effort into it and stop whining. Would be my suggestion to those who are upset.
It's by far my new favorite quest. Some of the Devs, I'm sure, don't like most of my posts but I'll give them props for this raid.
The Shroud might have crafting and loot, but Abbot is actually fun to play.

You have your holidays confused.

Today is March 17th, which is St. Patricks Day.
April 1st is April Fools day.

Just FYI....

oronisi
03-17-2008, 02:01 PM
I just spent the last hour learning the Abbot.

It's extremely easy. Just takes some mechanical coordination.

I guess teaching it to newcomers, or new puggers would be cause for some restarting. But otherwise its very straightforward and completable.

Put more effort into it and stop whining. Would be my suggestion to those who are upset.

It's by far my new favorite quest. Some of the Devs, I'm sure, don't like most of my posts but I'll give them props for this raid.

The Shroud might have crafting and loot, but Abbot is actually fun to play.

You know I'd love to see a screenshot of your /quest completions and how many times you've beaten this 'very straightforward and completable' raid.

Hendrik
03-17-2008, 02:14 PM
From my recent experience with the Abbot, it is clearly possible and much easier than it used to be. The issue though is you need to spend a lot of time to train people for it. Pretty much every time I join a group attempting it at LEAST one person says "first time in here", well that's a guaranteed failure right there if they get teleported to a puzzle.

There are two ways to fix this, either you spend hours training them but then right when they become good at it they have to leave or you get another person you need to train which doesn't get you anywhere. The second option is you put an LFM up for "experienced only" which will get you a decent group and will allow you to complete it but might take ages to fill. I know enough people on Sarlona that can get together and beat it, but how much time and effort do I have to spend tracking these people down and getting them in my group?

Later tonight on Sarlona I will try an "experienced only" group and see how many people out there do know the quest well, but even if we beat it, what about the other 99.99% of the playerbase? Do they not get to run the quest?

Great post Qzi.

Sums up the Abbott very well and what is necessary to complete it.

Beherit_Baphomar
03-17-2008, 02:15 PM
Great post Qzi.

Sums up the Abbott very well and what is necessary to complete it.

?
Did you read Qzipoun's post?

Hendrik
03-17-2008, 02:26 PM
?
Did you read Qzipoun's post?

Yes. Did you understand?

You need to spend a lot of time with a dedicated group to do it. If you do not have said group, or guild, your chances to complete it are very low. Introducing those with no knowledge into the group, until they gain it, is failure.

Finally, due to the small amount of 'experienced' players with the Abbott, the trickle down of knowledge is very slow. Add in the fact those that impart knowledge are met with 'cheaters', 'exploiters', 'liars', or other cute metaphors can see why that information is slow to move beyond those small, core groups.

Angelus_dead
03-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Sums up the Abbott very well and what is necessary to complete it.
Have you ever completed the Abbot? Have you ever completed the Phase Chasm, or the Asteroid Pillar?

If not, then what is your basis for making claims about what is necessary to complete it?



You need to spend a lot of time with a dedicated group to do it. If you do not have said group, or guild, your chances to complete it are very low.
There are dozens of decidated groups and guilds who play DDO. They're not completing the Abbot either. If they could, they would.

The chance for a Litany trinket by itself makes spending the time worthwhile... if the time was anywhere remotely reasonable.

Bradik_Losdar
03-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Yes. Did you understand?

You need to spend a lot of time with a dedicated group to do it. If you do not have said group, or guild, your chances to complete it are very low. Introducing those with no knowledge into the group, until they gain it, is failure.

Finally, due to the small amount of 'experienced' players with the Abbott, the trickle down of knowledge is very slow. Add in the fact those that impart knowledge are met with 'cheaters', 'exploiters', 'liars', or other cute metaphors can see why that information is slow to move beyond those small, core groups.

So this wonderful quest is a Catch 22 then for 99.99% of DDO players:

Player A "I want join your group to learn the Abbot raid"

Player B "You can't join unless you've already learned it"

Yeah, that says a lot.

Sure hope the 42 folks spread across all five servers that can "dedicate" 20+ hours of practice and then hope the connection doesn't lag at just the wrong time enjoy running their own private quest.

So okay, you win, it isn't broken....

The_Shadow
03-17-2008, 02:43 PM
Just like the titan raid when it first came out. It was broken and no one would admit it. Then the miracle fix and everyone could beat the titan now. The Abbott is no different. It has been punishment for the people that "exploited" it from the beginning when the Abbott could be ranged and players couldn't be touched. I think it's still punishment, because it definetly not fun to run. I am one of the "6 core" members that run with Gruntis and the guild, and with Good/Bad/A+ players...no matter what, we have NEVER gotten past the tiles. The closest EVER was beating 2 puzzles and missing the final 2 tiles (NOT to mention they would have to run it again on the other side.) and we still got nuked by inferno because it lasts longer then the 8 sec. ice island...another story... I've hated the neCRAPolis quests from the beginning of the Silver Flame quests when I was level 2. This Abbott raid is an extension of this hate. Luckily DDO redeemed themselves with Mod 6 and crafting, because a lot of people took "breaks" when the neCRAPolis mod came out and slowly are coming back. I am not saying make the Abbott beatable like a 4 person group in the Titan, but having only been beat less then a handful of times (if even that?) by level 16 characters??? This does not seem reasonable? So for our 2 year anniversary gift Turbine...instead of cake or a lag fest of 20 marketplace instances...can we get a fix on the Abbott please?

Beherit_Baphomar
03-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Once again, people are coming to these Abbott threads with an eliter-than-thou attitude.
Once again, they argue that nothings broke, but list one of the requirement to complete the raid as
"a dedicated team" and "weeks of practice".

Showing, once again, that the raid needs a major overhaul.

Beherit_Baphomar
03-17-2008, 02:49 PM
Just like the titan raid when it first came out. It was broken and no one would admit it. Then the miracle fix and everyone could beat the titan now. The Abbott is no different. It has been punishment for the people that "exploited" it from the beginning when the Abbott could be ranged and players couldn't be touched. I think it's still punishment, because it definetly not fun to run....can we get a fix on the Abbott please?

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Well, one of the nails.

Angelus_dead
03-17-2008, 02:53 PM
Just like the titan raid when it first came out. It was broken and no one would admit it. Then the miracle fix and everyone could beat the titan now.
The unbelievable part is that they didn't learn from the Titan fiasco.

gpk
03-17-2008, 02:53 PM
From my recent experience with the Abbot, it is clearly possible and much easier than it used to be.

Can you please tell us what's changed in the raid since the last time the abbot was patched? Is there some stealth fix we are unware of?

gpk
03-17-2008, 02:57 PM
Yes. Did you understand?

You need to spend a lot of time with a dedicated group to do it. If you do not have said group, or guild, your chances to complete it are very low. Introducing those with no knowledge into the group, until they gain it, is failure.

Finally, due to the small amount of 'experienced' players with the Abbott, the trickle down of knowledge is very slow. Add in the fact those that impart knowledge are met with 'cheaters', 'exploiters', 'liars', or other cute metaphors can see why that information is slow to move beyond those small, core groups.

Why is it YOU never tell us how many times you've beaten it, before it was patched and since, and what "tactics" you used?
Got some screenshots of wins and completions for us?
How many hours of practice and how many hours of attempts are needed for 1 successful run?
And by succesful I mean throwing rocks at boulders, using ice pads to avoid inferno and not 1 summon being summoned.

I'm sure many of us would sure like to know.

Angelus_dead
03-17-2008, 03:01 PM
Can you please tell us what's changed in the raid since the last time the abbot was patched? Is there some stealth fix we are unware of?

Here are the stages of Abbot changes, as well as I can remember. If anyone has more accurate details, it would be nice to know:

1. No raid timer, puzzles are 100% unreasonable, no reason to complete puzzles, no death penalty.

2. Raid timer added.

3. Abbot gets stronger, puzzles get mandatory, death penalty introduced. Inferno and Phase Wraiths given spellpoint drain. Encasement changed to only target one character, but to obstruct jumping out of the box. Flesh To Stone replaced with Greater Shout and Horrid Wilting. A certain exploit is removed.

4. Ice puzzle adjusted to be reasonable. Chasm puzzle adjusted with longer tile duration and red warning colors, but still unreasonable due to lag and visual range. Asteroids not improved, but given a longer starting delay (which ironically makes things harder, unless you're using certain exploits). Certain loot items improved.

5. A global exploit which worked in all raids is removed.

The_Shadow
03-17-2008, 07:12 PM
Even if the fix's are gonna come slowly...Can we AT LEAST GET THE DAMN GOGGLES BUG FIXED?????????????? Many a times we've forgotten to take the goggles off on a failed tile attempt and it bugs the person on the loading screen and we have to wait forever for a GM to "unstick" this person and the person stuck with him/her....Ugggg...more fustration from this raid!

Paragon
03-17-2008, 08:45 PM
I'd like to start by saying that a lot of good stuff has been done by the devs to make this quest somewhat playable, however, I'd like to add my name to the list of those who want it made better. IMO, there is a little something wrong with each puzzle:

Asteroids--draw distance for the asteriods. I have my graphics on the highest settings possible and have literally seen asteroids appear out of thin air to kill me. Also, the fact that they come from a 360 degree arc around the platform all at the same time is quite hard to deal with, but not necessarily impossible if they were all visible more than 3 seconds before impact.

Ice Room--there's a nasty bug where you have the ice ball wand malfunction in one of several ways. Either it flies off into the air, or it hits the water but doesn't do anything. This should never, ever happen.

Goggles Hall--latency and lag. Just play the quest routing through a proxy server on the west coast and you'll know what I'm talking about. The annoying thing where you see a tile turning red, walk forward, and by the time your buddy sees you move on his screen and starts walking himself, it's too late.

None of this would be that hard if it just worked as I'm sure it's supposed to.

Riminy
03-18-2008, 01:07 AM
Great post Qzi.

Sums up the Abbott very well and what is necessary to complete it.


Yes. Did you understand?

You need to spend a lot of time with a dedicated group to do it. If you do not have said group, or guild, your chances to complete it are very low. Introducing those with no knowledge into the group, until they gain it, is failure.

Finally, due to the small amount of 'experienced' players with the Abbott, the trickle down of knowledge is very slow. Add in the fact those that impart knowledge are met with 'cheaters', 'exploiters', 'liars', or other cute metaphors can see why that information is slow to move beyond those small, core groups.

How much time have you ever spent INSIDE the abbot raid. Furthermore are you even abbot ready? I think you have done it once since its been released. Please go in the abbot and as you so frequently tell everyone in these threads, try harder and alls you need is more practice. After you wipe for the 50th time and you finally realise, wow this is just not fun and impossible please come back on the forums and give us some POSITIVE (+) feedback rather then the same thing you say everytime. "You need to spend more time in the puzzle" No raid should take more then 50-100 trys.

Re-attempting the puzzles will not help you if they are not completable. I do not understand your reasoning. If I jump off a second story roof trying to fly, I'm going to get hurt right? If I keep trying, its still not going to make a difference because it is impossible. If i do keep trying to fly of a second story building I am going to keep getting hurt and thats alls that is happening with the
Abbot. We try the impossible puzzles (Without using "Tricks") and we fail. We have to pay for the bills and such to our weapons and items. We are getting hurt, but thats not the problem. I don't really care about the bills and such but It's the fact we are getting hurt when we should not be. The abbot should be completable to a degree where it is difficult. But turbine crossed the line of difficult into impossible.

Can you really just skip a part of the game you screwed up? What was the basis of the patches that made it harder?

These questions mean nothing now because what do they matter? Mod 5 (Mod 6 now) is in place and these questions only slow down the process of fixing the mod 5 raid. Do we really care what there reasoning for mod 5 raid is or would be just prefer to see it fixed? Ofcourse we care a little but I think the majority of the people who enjoy the Abbot raid would like to see it fixed as soon as possible.

The quickest way to fix the mod 5 raid would to just keep giving positive feedback of how to better the mod 5 raid. Make it easier, but keep it fairly difficult. It seems we are being left out in the cold with no dev responses but i guess alls there is to do is just keep making these threads and keep replying to them.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2008, 01:41 AM
Goggles Hall--latency and lag. Just play the quest routing through a proxy server on the west coast and you'll know what I'm talking about. The annoying thing where you see a tile turning red, walk forward, and by the time your buddy sees you move on his screen and starts walking himself, it's too late.
I have confirmed experimentally that even if both players are close to the server (40 ms ping), there still is over 2 seconds of total latency from the time you see a tile change to the time your partner hears your voice that it has changed. Part of that may be protocol-latency, where the voice chat software waits to accumulate a certain length of audio before sending it.

It gets even worse if you look at the latency of a moving character. Here's an experiment you can do: in a public DDO area, have a friend run towards a cliff (with his monitor off!) and you try to yell "stop" and get him to halt before he falls over. Even on a very low ping, you may need to give the stop command nearly 3 seconds before he reaches the cliff.

Note that there is less latency if you use a non-verbal method of signaling, such as moving your character back and forth, or jumping. But for best results you'd need to convey at least four possible signals (NSEW), and running in a linear hallway only gives the guide two directions to move.

Dimz
03-18-2008, 01:52 AM
please get your facts straight while it took us alot of practice we used no cheap tricks to be the abbot recently.

What do you consider cheap sir?

:rolleyes:

stockwizard5
03-18-2008, 08:06 AM
please get your facts straight while it took us alot of practice we used no cheap tricks to be the abbot recently.

I see we have been going about this entirely the wrong way :eek:

Aspenor
03-18-2008, 08:37 AM
How much time have you ever spent INSIDE the abbot raid. Furthermore are you even abbot ready? I think you have done it once since its been released. Please go in the abbot and as you so frequently tell everyone in these threads, try harder and alls you need is more practice. After you wipe for the 50th time and you finally realise, wow this is just not fun and impossible please come back on the forums and give us some POSITIVE (+) feedback rather then the same thing you say everytime. "You need to spend more time in the puzzle" No raid should take more then 50-100 trys.

Re-attempting the puzzles will not help you if they are not completable. I do not understand your reasoning. If I jump off a second story roof trying to fly, I'm going to get hurt right? If I keep trying, its still not going to make a difference because it is impossible. If i do keep trying to fly of a second story building I am going to keep getting hurt and thats alls that is happening with the
Abbot. We try the impossible puzzles (Without using "Tricks") and we fail. We have to pay for the bills and such to our weapons and items. We are getting hurt, but thats not the problem. I don't really care about the bills and such but It's the fact we are getting hurt when we should not be. The abbot should be completable to a degree where it is difficult. But turbine crossed the line of difficult into impossible.

Can you really just skip a part of the game you screwed up? What was the basis of the patches that made it harder?

These questions mean nothing now because what do they matter? Mod 5 (Mod 6 now) is in place and these questions only slow down the process of fixing the mod 5 raid. Do we really care what there reasoning for mod 5 raid is or would be just prefer to see it fixed? Ofcourse we care a little but I think the majority of the people who enjoy the Abbot raid would like to see it fixed as soon as possible.

The quickest way to fix the mod 5 raid would to just keep giving positive feedback of how to better the mod 5 raid. Make it easier, but keep it fairly difficult. It seems we are being left out in the cold with no dev responses but i guess alls there is to do is just keep making these threads and keep replying to them.
Just to be picky, as far as I know Hendrick was in the only party that beat the Abbot, post patch, on the American servers.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2008, 08:54 AM
Just to be picky, as far as I know Hendrick was in the only party that beat the Abbot, post patch, on the American servers.
You are wrong. First, Hendrik was not a member of the well-publicized Sarlona group which showed screenshots of killing the Abbot.

Second, more than one party has beaten it in the USA. The other groups didn't publicize it, because they felt nervous about the exploits used to win.

Third, Hendrick and Hendrik are different accounts.

Aspenor
03-18-2008, 09:00 AM
You are wrong.

Suspicion confirmed. /wave

Hiya Gimpster!!

Qzipoun
03-18-2008, 09:32 AM
Can you please tell us what's changed in the raid since the last time the abbot was patched? Is there some stealth fix we are unware of?

I'm really not sure WHEN the changes were made (since I stopped running it for a bit) but the abbot himself is much easier to bring down. He rarely one shots people, dispels a lot less often, I don't recall seeing his chain lighting anymore, if it's still there then not nearly as powerful. I THINK these changes were made at the same time as the other "public" changes such as having more than one go at the puzzles etc... but not 100% certain. Basically, at this point, a team of 6 people can easily beat him down and get teleported while I've seen groups of 12 people not being able to bring him down before because he could kill everyone with 1 chain lighting.

What really shocks me though is Kate Paiz's recent comment on the black abbot when someone asked her a question on it, her answer made me think she has no idea how dead this raid is.

Hendrik
03-18-2008, 09:35 AM
How much time have you ever spent INSIDE the abbot raid. Furthermore are you even abbot ready? I think you have done it once since its been released. Please go in the abbot and as you so frequently tell everyone in these threads, try harder and alls you need is more practice. After you wipe for the 50th time and you finally realise, wow this is just not fun and impossible please come back on the forums and give us some POSITIVE (+) feedback rather then the same thing you say everytime. "You need to spend more time in the puzzle" No raid should take more then 50-100 trys.

More of the standard ****. But you forgot to call me an exploiter or the I cheese my way through the puzzles.

But to answer your 'questions';

I have spent a TON of time in there. Coordinated and shared much info on what has worked and not with the groups that have completed and are still attempting.

Yea pal, I am Abbott ready.

Sorry there bud, been in there far more then once. And if I was to wipe 50 times doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result, that would be insane. I can see why this is 'impossible' to those that only do the same thing each and every time. Might be better to try something new and different, maybe think outside the box, after like the 5th.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2008, 09:49 AM
Basically, at this point, a team of 6 people can easily beat him down and get teleported while I've seen groups of 12 people not being able to bring him down before because he could kill everyone with 1 chain lighting.
A team of six always could. Your perception could be biased by several factors:
1. All the players got +2 levels higher.
2. Many characters got fancy new items, like Green Steel bracers of +600 sp.
3. The players are probably more experienced with fighting the Abbot than before.
4. Now that the raid is so old, weak or clueless players have probably given up on it, and only more capable characters even try.

I know for a fact that he doesn't use Greater Dispel Magic any less than he used to. However, his chance to dispel has gone down from 75% to 65%.


What really shocks me though is Kate Paiz's recent comment on the black abbot when someone asked her a question on it, her answer made me think she has no idea how dead this raid is.
She's in denial. Well, personally she knows the raid is in trouble, but when publically representing the corporation, she can't admit it.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2008, 09:55 AM
What really shocks me though is Kate Paiz's recent comment on the black abbot when someone asked her a question on it, her answer made me think she has no idea how dead this raid is.
Here is that comment (http://www.massively.com/2008/03/15/ddo-qanda-mod-7-the-monk-and-more/):

Q: What about areas like the Abbot that aren't played?
A: It's one of those things, as players start to be successful with it they play more, it's a lifecycle thing.
Audience member: the Abbot won't be played until games are fixed, you just can't do the goggles game or asteroid game.
A: There are bugs and issues, we are tweaking it, bug fixing is a priority for us. Those very challenging raid mechanics, when we innovate, do take some time to get balanced.

gpk
03-18-2008, 10:37 AM
I'm really not sure WHEN the changes were made (since I stopped running it for a bit) but the abbot himself is much easier to bring down. He rarely one shots people, dispels a lot less often, I don't recall seeing his chain lighting anymore, if it's still there then not nearly as powerful. I THINK these changes were made at the same time as the other "public" changes such as having more than one go at the puzzles etc... but not 100% certain. Basically, at this point, a team of 6 people can easily beat him down and get teleported while I've seen groups of 12 people not being able to bring him down before because he could kill everyone with 1 chain lighting.

What really shocks me though is Kate Paiz's recent comment on the black abbot when someone asked her a question on it, her answer made me think she has no idea how dead this raid is.

Well see you are talking about the abbot himself on his main platform before reaching the puzzles checkpoint and that's not really important to any abbot discussion.
The only times he was changed was in the patches and people already knew of this; what we are interested in are unanounced changes to the puzzles and as far as we know there are none. When someone says "things changed" many assume it's puzzle related changes.

Qzipoun
03-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Well see you are talking about the abbot himself on his main platform before reaching the puzzles checkpoint and that's not really important to any abbot discussion.
The only times he was changed was in the patches and people already knew of this; what we are interested in are unanounced changes to the puzzles and as far as we know there are none. When someone says "things changed" many assume it's puzzle related changes.

Yes, I realize that, I should probably have been more clear.

What I was trying to get at is since the abbot himself is a lot less powerful you don't need a full party to do much, all you need is 6 people, one or two extra if you're worried about dying before the teleport. It was more along the idea that it is much more efficient to get a very small group of very experienced people in rather than get people who want to "learn", making the raid useless for the majority of the people playing the game.

gpk
03-18-2008, 10:48 AM
Yes, I realize that, I should probably have been more clear.

What I was trying to get at is since the abbot himself is a lot less powerful you don't need a full party to do much, all you need is 6 people, one or two extra if you're worried about dying before the teleport. It was more along the idea that it is much more efficient to get a very small group of very experienced people in rather than get people who want to "learn", making the raid useless for the majority of the people playing the game.

Well I think most groups have been going in with just 6 to get to the puzzles since day 1, I know our groups have. In fact the abbot is stronger since patch 1 or 2 than he was in the original version.

I can't begin to tell you how many countless hours we spent in all version of the raid in order to give proper feedback to the devs and after patch 2 we had to beg people to come along.

Gruntus
03-18-2008, 01:10 PM
Seeing as im either on my Warchanter or my Cleric for our 6 man runs I can tell you he still uses chain lightening, dispell and horid wilting quite frequently. He is however much easier to take down to the 75% to get teleported than he used to be. Its much easier not having to worry about being fleshed to stone on normal so I would have to say again that the only real problem with this raid are the puzzles. Just some slight tweaking to the Meteor challenge and the Phase room would bring this raid back to life. I am really not whining at all about the countless hours we've spent trying different stratigies or "tricks" but trying to give positive feedback to whats broken here. My earlier post had some really good suggestions on a few easy ways to make this raid beatable. These wont by any means make this an easy raid for most but at least the hardcore players will have something to fall back on since we've just about run the shroud into the ground. I hope Turbine sees the fluctuation in activity since Mod6 and will take steps not to let things get back to the way the were shortly after Mod5. I dont know about other guilds but we had a HUGE number of players take breaks from the game because of the dissapointment of Mod5. The crafting system is awesome as well as the anniversary events but really, what are people gonna fall back on after the Shroud becomes too repetative to continue running. I would think that a newer raid that became beatable might give players something else to key for and act as a great distraction untill Mod7. Just some thoughts, and again our guilds purpose for posting in this thread is for constructive critisism, not to try and whine or *****. PZ Guys, Gruntis :)

Yuhjn
03-18-2008, 02:12 PM
When Mod1 came out, the red dragon was undefeatable for months.

When the Titan mod came out, it was unbeatable for months.

Finally we found an exploit to kill the dragon, and in response Turbine quickly fixed it.



The only time Turbine fixes raid bugs is when there is an exploit involved.

If you can exploit and beat it too easy, HOTFIX. If it's bugged so bad no one can complete it, well that's just too darn bad. But look there is a new mod comming out!


I just wish Turbine would take their existing raid content more seriously and give it a higher priority.

Beherit_Baphomar
03-18-2008, 02:18 PM
When Mod1 came out, the red dragon was undefeatable for months.

When the Titan mod came out, it was unbeatable for months.

Finally we found an exploit to kill the dragon, and in response Turbine quickly fixed it.



The only time Turbine fixes raid bugs is when there is an exploit involved.

If you can exploit and beat it too easy, HOTFIX. If it's bugged so bad no one can complete it, well that's just too darn bad. But look there is a new mod comming out!


I just wish Turbine would take their existing raid content more seriously and give it a higher priority.


This isn't a bug, it does need bug fixes...but who the hell cares about bug fixes when no ones running the raid?

The Abbotts about to become "old content"...which will then fall into Turbines policy of not going back and redoing "old content".

Or maybe its already there.

Turial
03-18-2008, 02:41 PM
This isn't a bug, it does need bug fixes...but who the hell cares about bug fixes when no ones running the raid?

The Abbotts about to become "old content"...which will then fall into Turbines policy of not going back and redoing "old content".

Or maybe its already there.

Yet they went back and changed the behavior of the mobs in the dragon raid. Sadly Turbines policy seems to be very flexable in when it gets implemented.

I've been running the abbot a bit in the last few weeks and the initial beat down is much easier then it used to be. The ice puzzle is about the same as always, it can be beat but we all knew that one.

Asteroids I can only beat via cheese...that is if I can phase in fast enough to avoid being pawned by the blankity blank things while the screen is still black. 32 times sent to this puzzle and I've had that happen 23 times, where I get knocked off before fully in. I would change this one so that the asteroids start flying once both players or even just one player picked up the rocks you have to use to beat the asteroids. If that doesnt help enough I would make it so the asteroids can only come down onto the platform rather then coming up from under it.

Phase puzzle I would change so that when you equip the goggles you are able to see the tiles as if you were the one standing on the bridge. That should change it to an acceptable challenge for some...some challenges will always be trivial for others.

If you beat a puzzle it should disable the "attack" that the item from that puzzle lets you deal with. That way if you fail but still have the item you can deal with the "attacks" that the item.

bobbryan2
03-18-2008, 02:53 PM
The unbelievable part is that they didn't learn from the Titan fiasco.

I can't agree with that strongly enough. I was astonished at the titan fiasco... when they did it again... it blew me away.

I have no doubt that people will eventually run the Abbot after the devs fix it. But I also know that the Abbot will probably take another 9 months or so to recover from this fiasco. Even after the titan was run... people still didn't run it because people got into the habit of not running it. And back then, it was only the second raid. It took months of people slowly tricklin' before it was run again.

This time around... people have no real desire to run the titan, because A)the loot sucks, and B) there are like 5 other raids to go do.

Fix it as soon as you can... but more importantly: Don't do this again.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2008, 03:22 PM
When Mod1 came out, the red dragon was undefeatable for months.
Your history on the dragon is confused. It was beaten within a week with a no-risk method that was soon fixed.
From then on, the dragon was regularly beatable by groups who went in and spent an excessive cost in resources, and they'd have a failure rate of sometimes over 75% (depending on the skills of the group, and luck with buffets). That meant for a long period, it was unreasonable for an average player to expect to beat the dragon... but there was never a time when the top elite players couldn't beat it.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Asteroids I can only beat via cheese...that is if I can phase in fast enough to avoid being pawned by the blankity blank things while the screen is still black. 32 times sent to this puzzle and I've had that happen 23 times, where I get knocked off before fully in.
What!! Your computer must be horrible.
When originally released, you had a delay of over 30 seconds before they come... 30 tense, boring, seconds waiting for the unbeatable assault.
Then they increased the delay to be even longer.

Riminy
03-18-2008, 04:00 PM
More of the standard ****. But you forgot to call me an exploiter or the I cheese my way through the puzzles.

But to answer your 'questions';

I have spent a TON of time in there. Coordinated and shared much info on what has worked and not with the groups that have completed and are still attempting.

Yea pal, I am Abbott ready.

Sorry there bud, been in there far more then once. And if I was to wipe 50 times doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result, that would be insane. I can see why this is 'impossible' to those that only do the same thing each and every time. Might be better to try something new and different, maybe think outside the box, after like the 5th.

Fair enough then, how can you try something different in the asteroid puzzle? Should i hang off a ledge, should i summon some monsters? Beating down the abbot is no problem, its mainly the asteroid puzzle everyone is infuriated by because it can only be beaten those 2 ways. Now there is a difference between how is it supposed to be done and trying something different. I'm not saying your implying for me to use cheap tricks but what else realistaclly is there to do in that puzzle other then throw boulders at asteroids? Yeah I've had an insane amount of trys at it. I've played many first person shooter games. When i first saw it, i thought wow this shouldn't be hard. I think the only change to asteroid is that there needs to be less asteroids, maybe alot less and they need to be slightly slower.

The tile puzzle is still...very hard. I have completed this one but its more like a 1/20 chance just to make the first side. I am not from USA so my latency and lag are quite substantial to someone from USA. Like i said before, i lag every second jump i do. I'd wish they made some tiles that did not fade away but these titles were amongst tiles that did fade away. Making us figure out the correct path using the goggles and leading the other person across the tiles that do not fade away avoiding and trying to remember the tiles that do fade away.

I would just like to see this raid fixed. It was my favourite raid and still is(?), but i have pretty much given up that it will ever be fixed. The abbot raid is so exciting, unlike the reaver, titan, most dq's and dragon runs, the Abbot gave everyone something to do. Everyone has there own part which is probably a little of the reason its hard for your average players. When it was beatable, I really enjoyed the abbot. It's a good feeling to accomplish something like the abbot that requires so much teamwork. I just don't understand when people say "Just keep trying, you need more practice". These kind of remarks just further delay the Mod 5 raid. I think if the puzzles were ALL beatable with some degree of difficulty all of the DDO community could see just how exciting this raid is :). People know it's just ridiclous, so they don't even bother. I'm glad people are still trying, maybe it'll give turbine a reason to fix it.

Turial
03-18-2008, 06:15 PM
What!! Your computer must be horrible.
When originally released, you had a delay of over 30 seconds before they come... 30 tense, boring, seconds waiting for the unbeatable assault.
Then they increased the delay to be even longer.

Thats the thing though my computer is fine running the game at full graphics. I normally only run medium or low though because I have issues with my ISP.

Andah
03-18-2008, 11:41 PM
platform fights are fine


LIES! When the wands will still mis-target and shoot their projectile straight up, or spawn islands underwater, I would hardly call that 'fine'.

Jefro
03-23-2008, 08:09 AM
Any chance to see changes with amount of asteriods or getting some static platforms for google puzzle in next update?

sirgog
03-23-2008, 08:25 AM
Any chances of making the puzzles optional again?


IMO, the quest should be changed so the puzzles help more with the fighting than they do now, but are optional.



Also, any chance of upping the number of chests at the end?

Angelus_dead
03-23-2008, 12:35 PM
IMO, the quest should be changed so the puzzles help more with the fighting than they do now, but are optional.
I don't know any way the ice puzzle could help more. It would truly take a miracle (or consumption of 2 mana potions per second) to beat the Inferno without it.

I'm not exactly sure how the goggles help fight the phase wraiths (because everyone I've seen win the new version used an exploit). But those wraiths are really bad news, what with the spellpoint drain attack. Anything that helps against them is also important.

And of course, Encasement is a randomly-applied death sentence to individual players unless you use boulders to get them out.

Jefro
03-24-2008, 02:28 AM
We did both asteroid and ice puzzle back to back complete, but died both times with googles puzzle though. We beat him down again and he still teleport us to all 3 puzzles, then killed us with inferno. Thought suppose to remove done puzzles?
Will he keep teleporting us unless we do enough damage to kill him that 3rd round?



They should fix googles and let the items not disappear on death.
Put the tiles as static, since just telling people where to go hard enough

Angelus_dead
03-24-2008, 03:05 AM
Thought suppose to remove done puzzles. They should fix googles and let the items not disappear on death.
Put the tiles as static, since just telling people where to go hard enough
Guess I may as well repeat my suggestions, which I made long ago (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=133862).

1. Change the Phase Goggles so that a character who leaves the instance wearing them can still play the game. It's not acceptable for such a blatant bug to remain so long after the quest was released.

2. Add 3 more treasure chests. It makes no sense for the hardest raid to have the least loot. Velah 2, Titan 2, Laliat 2, Reaver 4, Abbot ONE!?!?

3. Change the items (goggles/wands/boulders) so they are not bind-on-acquire. There's no reason to prohibit players from trading them around once back in the main chamber. (However, to prevent sharing boulders with all 12 players, change them from stacks of 50 to a single 100% returning boulder. That also means the replacement stacks can be removed).

4. Add grid lines to the phase chasm so that both players can see where the edges of tiles are, even if they can't see the actual tiles. This will greatly help cope with the multiple-second latency of DDO's network chat.

5. On normal, add one randomly-positioned tile in the 7th row which is always on. On hard, add one randomly-positioned tile in the 3rd or 10th row which is always on.

6. Change DDO's targeting so that the direction you throw a manually-aimed object is based only on where your mouse is pointing, and nothing else. Terrain and creatures in front of you or behind you should not deflect the path of the shot. There is a myth that this has already been fixed in mod6, but testing on Risia showed that to be incorrect.

7. Increase the range at which incoming asteroids can be seen.

8. Change the effect of an asteroid impact to not involve bumping the characters around. Instead, it does 15d6 bludgeon damage (reflex half) and damages the platform itself. After about 5 hits the platform is totally destroyed, and you fall to death. This change would make the challenge more forgiving, but also eliminate sneaky tricks that keep you on the platform without destroying any asteroids. (I know of 4 techniques to beat this puzzle, and none involve throwing a boulder)

9. Characters not standing on stone floor should be immune to Encase. (Thus, it won't hit you out on an iceball). If that cannot be changed, then increase the cooldown separating Inferno and Encase so players have time to get off the iceball.

10. If you have fewer than 6 players, but at least 2, then as many players as possible should be teleported to challenges. Keep on porting them after each cycle until they've been to all the challenges. Conceivably, it should be possible for a duo to win the raid in this fashion (assuming they can survive the Abbot's attacks, which is improbable).


Bonus! Good changes that aren't necessary:

11. Put in mummy-spawning on hard and elite. However, Warforged characters should be immune, and Spawn Screen should give some protection (The Abbot will dispel it anyhow)

12. Give back the Abbot's Flesh To Stone spell.

13. Give the Abbot some excellent trash-talk to rival Velah or Laliat as he fights us. Anyone who thinks he is ascending to GODhood should have a memorably egotistical monologue.

14. Add a scroll of Inferno to the loot table so we can learn it for ourselves. (Ok, maybe not)

Bronko
03-24-2008, 08:30 PM
We did both asteroid and ice puzzle back to back complete, but died both times with googles puzzle though. We beat him down again and he still teleport us to all 3 puzzles, then killed us with inferno. Thought suppose to remove done puzzles?
Will he keep teleporting us unless we do enough damage to kill him that 3rd round?



They should fix googles and let the items not disappear on death.
Put the tiles as static, since just telling people where to go hard enough

Well, we beat our heads against that wall again last night in yet another futile attempt to beat this thing. Three painful hours later and all we got for our trouble was completely naked characters wearing nothing but their underpants after death-damage made them that way. Yes, we probably stayed far too long in that last run while spam-rezzing people in a futile attempt to beat it.

Every time we ran it he acted buggy at some point. Most often he stood there like a dummy letting us beat on him after we came back from the puzzle rooms. We successfully beat the asteroids AND the ice puzzle on the same run, but never once were we able to get a goggle puzzle completed. On one run a poor guildie got stuck with the now infamous loading screen bug when he died with the goggles on.

But on those occasions the Abbot was 'playing possum' when we came back from the puzzles. After beating on him for a short while he woke up and sent us to the puzzles all over again. All three. Even the ones we defeated. Again. Did I mention we defeated two of them already? By the end of our last run we had mastered them so well I was carrying around four extra ice wands. Until I encountered a lag related death on the main platform and all our hard work went away.

Yup, Angelus and Jefro are right on the money with that one: don't let those incredibly hard-earned items disappear on death. Let them drop on death like they should otherwise it guarantees a party wipe.

Granted we were a bit rusty and the number of runs we needed to get back up to speed help along a hefty repair bill but even with the extra two levels under our belts that thing was simply IMPOSSIBLE. No question. I'm sorry, but I've been running with this crew for a while and we seem to be able to handle everything else the game has thrown at us with hard work, practice, and teamwork (and occasionally with just brute force ;)). Not so with the Abbot.

And so this little rant is my release after all of that. If our tactics are way off I'd like to hear about what others can provide for advice. I'm humble enough to admit I cannot beat this thing without outside help, but in all honesty that outside help should be in the form of a fix from the Devs to revive a dead raid.

My suggestions? They're pretty much the same as everyone else that's posted anything constructive on the issue.

But however Turbine deems it fit to fix this thing, fix it they must. The concepts of the raid were promising. Everyone needed to work together and multiple characters could have a role to play in making or breaking the completion, but the mechanics of how that all comes together make this beautifully crafted and conceptualized raid all but unbeatable imho.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-24-2008, 08:38 PM
There are some excellent suggestions in this post. I will highlight two I really like:

1. Increase the time delay between inferno ending and encasement starting. There should be sufficient time for people to jump back off the ice platforms and get spread out on the main platform before the Abbot starts encasing people.

2. Come up with a way that the Ice Wands can be kept between teleports - either make it that once you've done the ice wand puzzle once, those two players (and possibly everyone else) don't teleport there again, or possibly make it so they drop on the floor when people teleport. Right now - you have to do the ice puzzle EACH TIME to stand a chance of surviving the inferno, when once is enough to complete the quest. In fact, you shouldn't have to do each puzzle more than once - maybe just teleport four people once Ice is done...?

Garth

p.s. I welcome the announced changes coming in Mod 7 to make the phase room puzzle easier.

Hendrik
03-24-2008, 08:38 PM
LIES! When the wands will still mis-target and shoot their projectile straight up, or spawn islands underwater, I would hardly call that 'fine'.

Try this next time;

Equip the wand and when your in free target mode, do a single left click. Then target and cast your ice platform.

No advice I can pass on about them going underwater as I have not seen that happen in a VERY long time.

Hendrik
03-24-2008, 08:42 PM
There are some excellent suggestions in this post. I will highlight two I really like:

1. Increase the time delay between inferno ending and encasement starting. There should be sufficient time for people to jump back off the ice platforms and get spread out on the main platform before the Abbot starts encasing people.

2. Come up with a way that the Ice Wands can be kept between teleports - either make it that once you've done the ice wand puzzle once, those two players (and possibly everyone else) don't teleport there again, or possibly make it so they drop on the floor when people teleport. Right now - you have to do the ice puzzle EACH TIME to stand a chance of surviving the inferno, when once is enough to complete the quest. In fact, you shouldn't have to do each puzzle more than once - maybe just teleport four people once Ice is done...?

Garth

p.s. I welcome the announced changes coming in Mod 7 to make the phase room puzzle easier.

Hiya Garth!

Had a **** load of fun there last few days. Today was the best! Laughing so hard at the end - near tears...

:)

Angelus_dead
03-24-2008, 09:23 PM
Every time we ran it he acted buggy at some point. Most often he stood there like a dummy letting us beat on him after we came back from the puzzle rooms.
Maybe someone in your group was intentionally doing this, and you didn't notice because you were either out of the room teleported to a puzzle, or busy watching other things. The Shroud raid has made the technique to cause this bug a lot more popular, so it's possible someone decided to do it to the Abbot on that basis.

Also there is a small chance that the technique used to beat asteroids was causing the bug. (Small!)

Jefro
03-25-2008, 10:29 AM
How many rounds is the abbot suppose to be fought, and are we suppose to be teleported to a completed puzzle to do it over again?

tihocan
03-25-2008, 11:39 AM
LIES! When the wands will still mis-target and shoot their projectile straight up
Make sure your partner is as far away behind you as possible, ideally on a side, and it should not mis-target.

Angelus_dead
03-25-2008, 11:54 AM
How many rounds is the abbot suppose to be fought, and are we suppose to be teleported to a completed puzzle to do it over again?
Abbot takes 3 rounds minimum, or more if there is still a puzzle you haven't completed by that time.
I believe round 1 ends at 50% hp, round 2 at 25% hp. Round 2 starts 5 minutes after round 1 ends.

And yes, you do need to do the puzzles again after round2 even if you beat them already. Notice that if all the puzzles were as easy as ice puzzle (like they should be), that wouldn't be a problem. Instead, it would be an opportunity to win more items.

Healemup
03-25-2008, 03:49 PM
This is what my guildmates are tellin' me:

Me: "If Party Leader tells you that I missed practice, then that's that. I may have missed one practice this year but if somebody says he missed one practice of all the practices this year, then that's enough to get a whole lot started. I told the Party Leader that you don't have to give the people of Stormreach a reason to think about trading me or anything like that. If you trade somebody, you trade them to make the guild better...simple as that. I'm cool with that. I'm all about that. The people in Stormreach deserve to have a winner. It's simple as that. It goes further than that.

Guildmate: "So you and the Party Leader got caught up on Saturday about practice?"

Me: "If I can't practice, I can't practice. It is as simple as that. It ain't about that at all. It's easy to sum it up if you're just talking about practice. We're sitting here, and I'm supposed to be the Party Superstar, and we're talking about practice. I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not a quest, not a quest, not a quest, but we're talking about practice. Not the quest that I go out there and die for and run every quest last it's my last but we're talking about practice man. How silly is that?

Now I know that I'm supposed to lead by example and all that but I'm not shoving that aside like it don't mean anything. I know it's important, I honestly do but we're talking about practice. We're talking about practice man. (laughter from my fellow guildies) We're talking about practice. We're talking about practice. We're not talking about the game. We're talking about practice. When you come to the quest, and you see me run, you've seen me run right, you've seen me give everything I've got, but we're talking about practice right now. (more laughter)

Guildmate: "But it's an issue that your Party Leader continues to raise?"

Me: "Hey I hear you, it's funny to me to, hey it's strange to me too but we're talking about practice man, we're not even talking about the quests, the actual quests, when it actually matters, we're talking about practice."

Guildmate: "Is it possible that if you practiced, not you but you would make your guildmates better?"

Me: "How can I make my party mates better by practicing?"


NOTE: Thanks and props to AI for the inspiration.