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View Full Version : Can we please take the crafting altars out of the shroud raid?



Mhykke
03-13-2008, 07:09 AM
Please remove the crafting altars from the raid. Running in random groups, sometimes it's like pulling teeth when people try and craft. I've seen it go ridiculous amounts of time, and have seen tension built up b/c of this.

What could be a good group going at a nice clip can be ruined by someone who decides then and there they'll ask everyone how to make what they want, and where they can find the info, and ask for people to repeat the ingredients they need, then ask to trade for ingredients, or mess up and ask to trade so they can try again, etc. etc.

There's absolutely no need to make others wait so long for someone crafting something for themselves.

Please don't argue that people could craft w/o running the raid. You still would have to run shroud to be able to craft. Shards are bound, and drop at the appropriate chests for each part. The only way to get a shard would be in the raid, at each chest, and have one drop or have someone transfer a shard to you in the chest.

The shards are the raid loot. They're the bound items that people roll for. Take the actual combining ingredients out of there.

Borror0
03-13-2008, 07:12 AM
Agreed, much less pain.

SciFiCowboy
03-13-2008, 07:22 AM
To add with this thread, what really bites is when someone will join as a pugger or even in a pug and basically even though the LFM says Parts 1 through 3(4) all they need it the first shrine and all of a sudden "gotta log, wife aggro" bam. Gone. Now we can't add someone to join like we could in other raids (pending going into last boss e.g Titan) Now being short handed in any class in the shroud is felt by the entire team.

Torn between leaving the altars in or out. I clear up backpack space and line everything I need before going in to make it as fast as possible, but who really wants to take a 20 min break while people figure out what to do at the altar. But on the other hand gaining access to the altar is a feat in and of itself. Perhaps placing the altars in Meridia's lower chambers or in the 12, but unless you've successfully completed that part of the raid you get a message "As much as you try you fail to understand the device in front of you." Leave them in the raid for those groups that have their act together, but if you're just experimenting or need more time, use the ones in the 12/Meridia so you're not pressured and screw up an item. That would be a good solution.

Razvan
03-13-2008, 07:23 AM
Where do you get the loot from in the Dragon Raid, the Titan Raid, the DQ Raid, the Reaver Raid...heck even TS..???

Yup, you got it: FROM THE RAID INSTANCE!

Enough said!

Mhykke
03-13-2008, 07:24 AM
Where do you get the loot from in the Dragon Raid, the Titan Raid, the DQ Raid, the Reaver Raid...heck even TS..???

Yup, you got it: FROM THE RAID INSTANCE!

Enough said!


Ummm, again, that's where you'd get the shards (the bound loot). You wouldn't be able to do anything different. You wouldn't be able to craft any more items, nothing. The ONLY thing that would change is that people wouldn't have to wait 15+ minutes at the first altar for someone to get the entire history of raid loot crafting.

Borror0
03-13-2008, 07:37 AM
Yup, you got it: FROM THE RAID INSTANCE!

I get my loot from the chest, so did I get my Shard of Power, my Shard of Greater Power and my Shard of Supreme Power. However, in the other raids, I didn't have to spend a few minutes figuring out how make my loot, I was just pulling it out of the chest, period. It changes nothing, but saving time as people can craft at the end of the raid, rather than in the middle of it.

Aspenor
03-13-2008, 07:50 AM
I concur with the OP.

Put raid crafting altars in Meridia or the Twelve.

Hendrik
03-13-2008, 07:55 AM
There is a much more simpler solution that does not require any DEV time at all.

1. Don't bring PUG's.
2. State upfront there will be NO crafting help available what so ever.
3. State upfront if you need to craft.

There. Three solutions to the 'problem' that players can use.

Sorry gents, not a big fan of changing game mechanics to suit impatience.

Heladron
03-13-2008, 08:18 AM
There is a much more simpler solution that does not require any DEV time at all.

1. Don't bring PUG's.
2. State upfront there will be NO crafting help available what so ever.
3. State upfront if you need to craft.

There. Three solutions to the 'problem' that players can use.

Sorry gents, not a big fan of changing game mechanics to suit impatience.

I agree that the expectations should just be set before the raid begins. However I don't like rule number 1.

People always say PUG like it's some disease that people have. Twenty minutes is twenty minutes whether you're explaining to someone you know or someone you don't know.

There are many types of people playing the game. Some of those people are annoying wiener heads. Some of those annoying wiener heads are in guilds.

Rule number one should be changed to NO WIENER HEADS or better yet a sample LFM:

"Shroud Raid on Hard - Not a crafting run. Oh yeah...no wiener heads!"

Hendrik
03-13-2008, 08:42 AM
I agree that the expectations should just be set before the raid begins. However I don't like rule number 1.

People always say PUG like it's some disease that people have. Twenty minutes is twenty minutes whether you're explaining to someone you know or someone you don't know.

There are many types of people playing the game. Some of those people are annoying wiener heads. Some of those annoying wiener heads are in guilds.

Rule number one should be changed to NO WIENER HEADS or better yet a sample LFM:

"Shroud Raid on Hard - Not a crafting run. Oh yeah...no wiener heads!"

I don't like 'rule' one at all Heladron. Just put that in there as most of the impatience I read deals with a unknowledgeable Pug and the time it takes to explain things.

There is a time and place to explain the finer points of crafting. For some its while your standing at an Altar, others it may be reading it all offline.

The main theme to my post is this; communication. A little here can go a very long way and it does not require any DEV time, just a little of ours.

:)

akla_thornfist
03-13-2008, 08:43 AM
i totaly agree with the op put the alters in meridia, keep the final alter in raid then they can take all the time they want to craft.

Cinwulf
03-13-2008, 08:46 AM
I don't see anything wrong with pulling the altars out; if anything it will make things go alot smoother. Good call OP. :)

Pfamily
03-13-2008, 09:01 AM
Making crafting available in locations other than only inside the raid is a good idea.

I find it amusing that some forget they too were crafting noobs and someone, no doubt, showed them the ropes too while others waited.

Ringos
03-13-2008, 09:07 AM
I've seen the suggested 'Shroud 1-X, No crafting' LFMs up. I would ASSUME that people understand this as I do...finish a part, shrine up and press on. I would think it would be a good selling point for the LFM since folks would know the group means business and they won't have to wait around 15 minutes between parts, adding an hour or so to the total time.

Jaywade
03-13-2008, 09:13 AM
/not signed

here's why .... I've only seen a few people take a long time to craft something (that that 1 person had all the raw materials just needed to put it all together) hoenstly I think the all the trading back in forth and the who needs a shard take longer...most have it mapped out before they craft so it's not a long process, ..if you make a item you can use right away (which I really like) ,and secondly when is it a problem???? after part 1 leave him behind portal doesn't close and you should still be able to clear 1 or 2 people short , after part 3 I can understand you want to get going but that's a alter where soemthing they are making might come in handy (earth elem's anyone) ... I like to run quick 1-4 runs too, but as much as a loot hound as I'am this hasn;t buged me at all, in fact I think it promote's the best part of this game , players talking to each other (hey what'ca making?, really why?)

Missing_Minds
03-13-2008, 09:14 AM
Making crafting available in locations other than only inside the raid is a good idea.

I find it amusing that some forget they too were crafting noobs and someone, no doubt, showed them the ropes too while others waited.

I'm... not so certain i'd want to allow raid crafting to occur outside of the raid. Now, maybe if there was a nice fee to go with it....

ah, I know. Once you beat the raid you can get the 12 to let you use the alters they have hidden. Or perhapes when you have enough favor. To just let anyone have access to craft raid loot just speaks of too much of an easy street to me.

Borror0
03-13-2008, 09:29 AM
To just let anyone have access to craft raid loot just speaks of too much of an easy street to me.

While your idea of an hidden altar do make some sense, why would removing the altars be such of a bad idea? Why aren't you confortable with crafting occuring outside of the raid? To be quite honest, I don't see the point of those saying that the raid loot has to be gotten inside the raid. It's not like you could farm on one toon and send the Shards to your other toons, if you want to upgrade, you'll need to run the Shroud to get the Shards. After, who cares if you craft inside or outside of the raid?

I say, remove the altars from the Shroud and put them in some hidden room inside the Twelve/Meridia, you'd gain access to them after your first completion.

Cinwulf
03-13-2008, 09:30 AM
While your idea of an hidden altar do make some sense, why would removing the altars be such of a bad idea? Why aren't you confortable with crafting occuring outside of the raid? To be quite honest, I don't see the point of those saying that the raid loot has to be gotten inside the raid. It's not like you could farm on one toon and send the Shards to your other toons, if you want to upgrade, you'll need to run the Shroud to get the Shards, after, who cares if you craft inside or outside of the raid?
I say, remove the altars from the Shroud and put them in some hidden room inside the Twelve/Meridia, you'd gain access to it after your first completion.


Exactly

Zaodon
03-13-2008, 09:30 AM
This should have been done in the first place. There is no reason to have the altars inside the raid. The bound Shards of Power are already inside the raids, and they are bound so you HAVE to run the raid to craft. Period.

The only result of having altars within the raid is that they delay the fun and enjoyment of running a raid-level quest in DDO.

If you want to keep the "feel" of having altars in the raid, then simply do this:
- Create an area inside the 12 that you are not allowed to enter until you have at least 1 raid completion.
i.e. once you complete the raid once, you can enter this area from then on.

RTN
03-13-2008, 09:39 AM
I'd imagine that the altars are in the raid for story purposes. I can see that and agree with it. However, it does seem that from a practical standpoint that taking them out of the raid makes sense.

Krondox
03-13-2008, 09:48 AM
I've only seen once where a person took way to long on a device. I think it was like 30 mins and he was still asking for more time. Either way the group can always move on and have that person catch up in part 2....catching up in part 4 would be a bad idea though. What about moving the devices out into the vale, so it is still challenging to get to and can be incorporated into part of the story line depending on the area the device is in. Eh who knows, I don’t mind waiting but the 30 min guy kinda got on everyone’s nerves.

K

Hendrik
03-13-2008, 09:58 AM
It's easier for the DEV's to make a new area with unique rules, QA it, bring down the servers and patch, then it is for a group of twelve people, strangers even, to agree to craft, not to craft, discuss crafting?

:confused:

talyor
03-13-2008, 10:02 AM
I see that the ddo world is much like the real world people have no consideration for where they once were. I am sure at one time the op was on his first raid and needed a little time and help with his crafting and now that he has what he wants he has no patience for those who need the help. the simple solution is if you dont want to wait then dont go with a pug group( or do you pug because constructing a group of your impatience is longer than waiting for the pug group) I have a good static group and enjoy pug groups there can be the ocassional frustraing player but for the most part enjoy helping others along the way.

Pfamily
03-13-2008, 10:12 AM
I'm... not so certain i'd want to allow raid crafting to occur outside of the raid. Now, maybe if there was a nice fee to go with it....

ah, I know. Once you beat the raid you can get the 12 to let you use the alters they have hidden. Or perhaps when you have enough favor. To just let anyone have access to craft raid loot just speaks of too much of an easy street to me.

That doesn't make sense to me Missing. Power shards are bound and you still need to complete the various stages to gain access to the chests and take your chances at pulling a shard or having one assigned to you from another player. Either way, the only way to get a shard is to be in a party that completes the stages of the raid. The rest of the ingredients are traded freely enough anyway, so no big deal there.

And, let's face it, some people just need more time to craft that others. It's no fault of their own, just that "folks is different" and being able to craft outside of the perceived pressure of the raid can make it a more enjoyable experience.

Making crafting available outside the raid, as stated by many in this thread, would also speed up the time it takes to complete the raid. This is a concern to those who prefer to play at a quicker pace or, for whatever reason, need to finish faster.

Moving the altars out of the raid, or making duplicates available outside, can serve to make the raid and crafting more enjoyable for many and wouldn't change the necessity to run the raid or the way ingredients are acquired.

Lorien_the_First_One
03-13-2008, 10:22 AM
I like the altars being in there for story purposes. However, after you have successfully completed the shroud once it would be nice to gain access to a teleporter to just take you directly to them, or even stick all 3 in a room somewheree you only have access to after completing the raid...something. I mean from a story perspective you should only have to fight your way there once right? :P

krud
03-13-2008, 10:27 AM
What is so wrong about moving the raid crafting outside the raid?

You still have to run the raid to get the bound shards anyway, and you still need to run the raid to get ingredients (unless you wanna fork out some outrageous plat on the AH). Why even have such a delay in the middle of a quest?

How hard can it be to program? It's not like it's a whole new quest being developed here. If you have the bound shard in your inventory you are flagged for the altar (like the titan sigil). Move the crafting instance to new coordinates in meridia or the twelve. You can even keep the altar in the quest for visual purposes only, if you want to keep to the story. Simple, minimal development, no delays, more convenient for everyone. How could it not be a good thing?

Pfamily
03-13-2008, 10:27 AM
I like the altars being in there for story purposes. However, after you have successfully completed the shroud once it would be nice to gain access to a teleporter to just take you directly to them, or even stick all 3 in a room somewheree you only have access to after completing the raid...something. I mean from a story perspective you should only have to fight your way there once right? :P

I like the idea of making the altars available only through effort. However, as the raid is in stages I'd favor (as was stated earlier in this thread) making the various altars available outside the raid only if you've completed that stage.

stockwizard5
03-13-2008, 10:45 AM
/signed

There were two cases the last two nights of players making mistakes because they were hurrrying. Even though we let them know to take their time - they still felt bad about holding the party up. There is no reason for them to a) feel pressured and b) mess up hard earned ingrediants :(

Move the alters ...

Missing_Minds
03-13-2008, 10:48 AM
That doesn't make sense to me Missing. Power shards are bound and you still need to complete the various stages to gain access to the chests and take your chances at pulling a shard or having one assigned to you from another player. Either way, the only way to get a shard is to be in a party that completes the stages of the raid. The rest of the ingredients are traded freely enough anyway, so no big deal there.

And, let's face it, some people just need more time to craft that others. It's no fault of their own, just that "folks is different" and being able to craft outside of the perceived pressure of the raid can make it a more enjoyable experience.

Making crafting available outside the raid, as stated by many in this thread, would also speed up the time it takes to complete the raid. This is a concern to those who prefer to play at a quicker pace or, for whatever reason, need to finish faster.

Moving the altars out of the raid, or making duplicates available outside, can serve to make the raid and crafting more enjoyable for many and wouldn't change the necessity to run the raid or the way ingredients are acquired.

While yes, the shards of power do bind. This points only at a mechanical aspect of crafting. By having the alters in the quest it self, it promotes social interaction (hey how do I..., Why are you... Anyone have a ___ to trade? Get your rear moving...) etc. The interaction is something the devs want to promote. The alters are also part of the story line for it.

Should the alters be removed and put somewhere else.. how often do you think you'll be able to get quick trades for needed ingredients? Honestly. The AH is a pain for them, and I REALLY do not want to camp myself out in some place praying for a trade to happen so I can get what I need to craft. If we actually had a LFM panel that was set up for Looking for Trading instead, I'll retract all statements other than make it to where you have to actually do something to get access to the alter.

However, also, do remember, this form of crafting is there to teach players how crafting is going to work. The methodology, and we do not have a refined form of crafting at all. We don't know what alters and what we can do yet with mod 7. But by all means we can post what we like and what we don't like that way the forum reading devs have feedback vs. "it sucks".

Jaywade
03-13-2008, 10:52 AM
still sit here amazed that this is even a topic for debate.....

okay playing 8 active guys right now 7 of them are flagged for the shroud 5 have at least tier 2 upgradre and 2 have tier 3 upgrade, yesterday (my day off) I must of done at least 7 different shroud runs (1-4).... non-guild runs straight pug's , all kind of different party make ups......I ask again when is this ever a problem????? I think the crazy lag peopel get in part 1 is much more of a "real" issue than crafting in the raid..... thank god I have been lucky enough to not play with players who have no time for those that are crafting... I haven't heard a single "come on man" "or how much longer" have you not crafted stuff before...yes some do take more time than others I've seen us leave as many as 3 behind from 1 onto part 2 and as many as 2 behind part 3( they casught up and we were no worse for the ware) , if this is really a problem for you I shudder to think what grping you must be like.... if you only have a hour this might not be the quest for you ,1-4 should take anywhere from 30-45 min for a quick grp, 50 -85 min for averge grp at least that's my findings

to be honest what kills me about this raid is part 2 ....I've seen way too many pugs take WAY too long (IMO) on it part 2 should be no more than 5-8 mins longer than 10-12 is way too long,

Catlyn
03-13-2008, 10:57 AM
I like the idea of speeding up downtime and am in favour of anything to help this.

How about this for a comprimise.

Change the altars located in the 12 and merida to allow the mixing of small, medium and large materials.

Change the altars located in the 12 and Merida to allow the imbuing of shards.

Do not allow these altars to accept greensteel items.

This way, you could make all your teir 2 items on your own time, imbue your shards and be ready to go.


Run the raid and at the appropiate altar put in your greensteel item, your power cell and your imbued shard.

Keeps the raid loot crafting in the raid, but lowers it down to just a single operation. All the prep work would be done outside the raid.

Just my thoughts.

Inkblack
03-13-2008, 12:41 PM
I like the idea of speeding up downtime and am in favour of anything to help this.

How about this for a comprimise.

Change the altars located in the 12 and merida to allow the mixing of small, medium and large materials.

Change the altars located in the 12 and Merida to allow the imbuing of shards.

Do not allow these altars to accept greensteel items.

This way, you could make all your teir 2 items on your own time, imbue your shards and be ready to go.


Run the raid and at the appropiate altar put in your greensteel item, your power cell and your imbued shard.

Keeps the raid loot crafting in the raid, but lowers it down to just a single operation. All the prep work would be done outside the raid.

Just my thoughts.

I like this.

The one problem I have with removing the altars is that you can get the Tier 2 shards in part 2 (before the Tier 2 altar in part 3) and the Tier 3 shards in part 4 (before the Tier 3 altar in part 5), meaning if you craft outside you could fully upgrade an item without ever completing the raid.

Catlyn's idea fixes that.

Ink

Aspenor
03-13-2008, 12:52 PM
Simple fix....

You shouldn't be able to use the altars not in the raid instance without having at least 1 raid completion.

No brainer....

Beherit_Baphomar
03-13-2008, 01:16 PM
So instead of moving the altars outside the raid and allowing everyone to take their sweet time to craft some of you
would rather they had to do it while 11 other people were waiting?

Interesting...

krud
03-13-2008, 01:52 PM
I like the idea of speeding up downtime and am in favour of anything to help this.

How about this for a comprimise.

Change the altars located in the 12 and merida to allow the mixing of small, medium and large materials.

Change the altars located in the 12 and Merida to allow the imbuing of shards.

Do not allow these altars to accept greensteel items.

This way, you could make all your teir 2 items on your own time, imbue your shards and be ready to go.


Run the raid and at the appropiate altar put in your greensteel item, your power cell and your imbued shard.

Keeps the raid loot crafting in the raid, but lowers it down to just a single operation. All the prep work would be done outside the raid.

Just my thoughts.

i like this idea. However, the only trouble I can envision is when you acquire those last few pieces necessary to upgrade your item in the raid you currently are in. You either spend the time in the altar as you currently do, or you have to go back and run the raid again after you've done the prep work outside.

If the flagging of crafting is such that you only need to get to the appropriate altar once in order to unlock the ability to upgrade, then it really doesn't matter if you get the shard before the appropriate altar. As long as you have the appropriate altar unlocked, you can go ahead and do the upgrade in meridia.

Amaras
03-13-2008, 02:12 PM
Idea: Running the raid to completion "Unlocks" another alter instance within meridia

Once you complete the raid (on any difficulty) you hauled the alters back with you to meridia into the same room that the original alter is and they are all usable there.

Problems: None, power shards are still only available at the end of each "section" of the raid, the alters would still be usable within the instance for people whom "just got" a power shard.

Laith
03-13-2008, 02:20 PM
i have to admit, i'm really torn on the issue.

afterall, most people don't really take THAT long... especially if you can get them help while you're forming the group.

btw, doesn't crafting a tier3 require completion the raid and starting your raidtimer?
who's alternative idea includes that "cost"?

of course, crafting tier3 could always stay inside the raid, because at that point there's no reason for everyone else to have to wait for you...

Cinwulf
03-13-2008, 02:25 PM
Take the first two out then and leave in the last one. No one needs to wait on anyone in the last one since the raid is finished and they can stay in as long as they like :p

Pfamily
03-13-2008, 02:25 PM
While yes, the shards of power do bind. This points only at a mechanical aspect of crafting. By having the alters in the quest it self, it promotes social interaction (hey how do I..., Why are you... Anyone have a ___ to trade? Get your rear moving...) etc. The interaction is something the devs want to promote. The alters are also part of the story line for it.

Should the alters be removed and put somewhere else.. how often do you think you'll be able to get quick trades for needed ingredients? Honestly. The AH is a pain for them, and I REALLY do not want to camp myself out in some place praying for a trade to happen so I can get what I need to craft. If we actually had a LFM panel that was set up for Looking for Trading instead, I'll retract all statements other than make it to where you have to actually do something to get access to the alter.

However, also, do remember, this form of crafting is there to teach players how crafting is going to work. The methodology, and we do not have a refined form of crafting at all. We don't know what alters and what we can do yet with mod 7. But by all means we can post what we like and what we don't like that way the forum reading devs have feedback vs. "it sucks".

I'm all for the teaching aspect of crafting, a lot of folks have put considerable time, effort, and resources into discovering the secrets (including you) and they have been very generous with their time in showing others how it works. I'm agreeing with the OP in saying that there could be an avenue to continue to learn and experiment with crafting that doesn't add enormously to the time spent in the raid.

And I also favor earning access to the altars.

And no, I don't think it sucks.

Missing_Minds
03-13-2008, 02:27 PM
And no, I don't think it sucks.

I better clarify that last bit of mine. I've seen reasonable posts this time through when talking about change. This is much better than "it sucks" types posts that pop up now and then. I've not seen any yet in this thread that qualifies at the later and I like seeing it stay that way.

Strumpoo
03-13-2008, 02:34 PM
I would love to have the altars moved out of the raid as well. There is a lot of pressure on people to craft items quickly in the raid as it is. I know that people say they don't mind waiting, but the person actually crafting the item does feel "the staring eyes" of those waiting for him burning into the backs of their necks.

I would like to be able to take my sweet time crafting, not feel like I am holding up a group because I want to double and triple check my recipies before burning up rare items.

It wouldn't hurt the raid at all, you still need to get your BOUND shards in the raid, so you would still have to actually complete the raid parts to get your items.

DelScorcho
03-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Take the first two out then and leave in the last one. No one needs to wait on anyone in the last one since the raid is finished and they can stay in as long as they like :p

Best solution so far IMO.

Catlyn
03-13-2008, 02:52 PM
Best solution so far IMO.

I agree with that and have said it before in game. I only offered mine as a compromise to those who want to see raid crafted items made in the raid.

As for pulling the last couple items you need, well, to be honest, if you pull the last medium scale you need and know that as soon as you pull it, then odds are you wouldn't hold anybody up while you did the full crafting routine. People who are unsure of what they are doing, are unlikely to go "Hey, I just got the last item I need to make my Stalemate Goggles for my cleric". It is these unsure people who are most likely to hold everyone else up while they decide what to make. Then they look for what they have. Then they ask if anyone has a scale to trade. Then they ask if anyone has a spare power cell. Anyways, you get my point. If you are oganized enough to know the last piece you need, then odds are you would be done crafting in 2 mins anyways, under any system.

By putting the altars outside, it gives first timers and those who aren't sure what to do the peace to do it without holding anyone else up. They can solicit (sp?) help from guildies if needed. They can trade / buy materials.

Jaywade
03-13-2008, 02:57 PM
There is a lot of pressure on people to craft items quickly in the raid as it is. I know that people say they don't mind waiting, but the person actually crafting the item does feel "the staring eyes" of those waiting for him burning into the backs of their necks.

I would like to be able to take my sweet time crafting, not feel like I am holding up a group because I want to double and triple check my recipies before burning up rare items.
.

I myself having never felt this way.....again when is this a problem part 1 they can start without you portal doesn't close
one or 2 person behind ae't going to matter in the coupl eof mins it takes to clear the map before moving on to the middle....end of part 3 you got people selling repairing buffing getting sp back, and again you could move on portal doesn't close most grps take at least a min or 2 to set up dico's balls and such before starting ...and after 5 there is no issue...

Luthen
03-13-2008, 02:57 PM
Crafting stations are in the raid. You know it going in and you know it when you're there. Adjust accordingly. Ive had my fair share of silly requests but come on. You want everyone else to adjust because you don't wanna wait? Im a pretty impatient guy and even I don't have issue with that. Adjust to the standard. It isnt that bad.:rolleyes:

krud
03-13-2008, 02:57 PM
While yes, the shards of power do bind. This points only at a mechanical aspect of crafting. By having the alters in the quest it self, it promotes social interaction (hey how do I..., Why are you... Anyone have a ___ to trade? Get your rear moving...) etc. The interaction is something the devs want to promote. The alters are also part of the story line for it.

Should the alters be removed and put somewhere else.. how often do you think you'll be able to get quick trades for needed ingredients? Honestly. The AH is a pain for them, and I REALLY do not want to camp myself out in some place praying for a trade to happen so I can get what I need to craft. If we actually had a LFM panel that was set up for Looking for Trading instead, I'll retract all statements other than make it to where you have to actually do something to get access to the alter.

However, also, do remember, this form of crafting is there to teach players how crafting is going to work. The methodology, and we do not have a refined form of crafting at all. We don't know what alters and what we can do yet with mod 7. But by all means we can post what we like and what we don't like that way the forum reading devs have feedback vs. "it sucks".

While I like the social aspect too, I don't feel keeping the altars (at least the first two) in the raid really encourages it all that much. People will still be trading ingredients within the raid. When the raid is over, those willing to share and trade further can still do so, without involving anyone who doesn't want to, doesn't have anything to offer, or doesn't have the time.

So far, the ideas I find most appealing are moving the first two altar instances into meridia, keeping the last one in the quest, and have a flagging mechanism to unlock access at the first two altars. This way all prep work can be done beforehand, and quest completion is necessary to use the last altar.

p.s. ive been in groups where it took quite a while sort things out between three or four people at the altars. Granted, these were advertised as ingredient runs, but with a few simple changes the two types of runs really do not need to be separate occurances.

salmag
03-13-2008, 03:38 PM
Idea: Running the raid to completion "Unlocks" another alter instance within meridia

Once you complete the raid (on any difficulty) you hauled the alters back with you to meridia into the same room that the original alter is and they are all usable there.

Problems: None, power shards are still only available at the end of each "section" of the raid, the alters would still be usable within the instance for people whom "just got" a power shard.

I think I like this idea most of all. Finish the quest and it unlocks an Altar room within Meridia. It promotes running the quest to completion rather than just run first 4 parts.

Mhykke
03-13-2008, 04:12 PM
Where do you get the loot from in the Dragon Raid, the Titan Raid, the DQ Raid, the Reaver Raid...heck even TS..???

Yup, you got it: FROM THE RAID INSTANCE!

Enough said!

Can I ask you, where do you get your 20th completion reward for each raid? Can you tell me where inside the instances you were offered the reward, because I've been offered that reward of a half list of raid loot outside the raid, every single time. I'm probably doing something wrong.



I see that the ddo world is much like the real world people have no consideration for where they once were. I am sure at one time the op was on his first raid and needed a little time and help with his crafting and now that he has what he wants he has no patience for those who need the help. the simple solution is if you dont want to wait then dont go with a pug group( or do you pug because constructing a group of your impatience is longer than waiting for the pug group) I have a good static group and enjoy pug groups there can be the ocassional frustraing player but for the most part enjoy helping others along the way.

You know what they say happens when you assume.
Actually, you'd be completely wrong, in that I've never made people wait ridiculous periods of time as crafting was explained to me. I realize that while being a game, there are 11 other real life people on the other side of those characters. I was considerate enough to spend a few minutes here and there reading about crafting on this website, and on the ddowiki, so while maybe not fully grasping it, understanding at least what ingredients I needed, how to combine them, to get certain effects. I never needed to sit there as people walked me through the process. But thanks for assuming that I'm a hypocritical pr*ck.

And why pug it? Because sometimes my schedule doesn't coincide w/ my guild, b/c sometimes I see a couple people I know from different guilds on the LFM and it'd be fun to group w/ them again. I do enjoy how people suspected the devs changed the raid loot mechanic in order to encourage pugging, and now we have a mechanic that has people replying on the forum not to take pugs, and don't pug it.



still sit here amazed that this is even a topic for debate.....

okay playing 8 active guys right now 7 of them are flagged for the shroud 5 have at least tier 2 upgradre and 2 have tier 3 upgrade, yesterday (my day off) I must of done at least 7 different shroud runs (1-4).... non-guild runs straight pug's , all kind of different party make ups......I ask again when is this ever a problem????? I think the crazy lag peopel get in part 1 is much more of a "real" issue than crafting in the raid..... thank god I have been lucky enough to not play with players who have no time for those that are crafting... I haven't heard a single "come on man" "or how much longer" have you not crafted stuff before...yes some do take more time than others I've seen us leave as many as 3 behind from 1 onto part 2 and as many as 2 behind part 3( they casught up and we were no worse for the ware) , if this is really a problem for you I shudder to think what grping you must be like.... if you only have a hour this might not be the quest for you ,1-4 should take anywhere from 30-45 min for a quick grp, 50 -85 min for averge grp at least that's my findings

to be honest what kills me about this raid is part 2 ....I've seen way too many pugs take WAY too long (IMO) on it part 2 should be no more than 5-8 mins longer than 10-12 is way too long,

Maybe you've just been lucky. I've been in a few raids where it took a ridiculously long time, and other people were getting upset. Recently, was in one group that a person took 20+ minutes (when I stopped paying attention) at each altar. It doesn't sound like a long time, but when you have 11 people ready to move on, it's a ridiculous amount of time. That's more than 40 minutes of time people waste. I thought it was isolated, but then grouped doing regular quests right after, and someone told a story of the same exact thing happening to them in the raid. Only in that raid, people weren't as friendly, and told the guy he needed to have his stuff together, and making people wait that long was ridiculous. The system promotes unnecessary tension. Again, maybe you've just been lucky. Maybe your server's pugs are uberlicious. But maybe I'm guessing that it happens more than you think, considering I'm posting on it, as well as numerous others.

And how does moving on without the person help alleviate the pressure on the person from crafting quickly? Don't you think he'll feel even more pressure if he hears the rest of the party contributing while he's just crafting items? Also, I'm guessing you don't want too many people crafting while everyone else is fighting in part 4. That may just be me though.

Yeah, but it's just me though, right? I mean, i'm sure you'd be fine sitting at an altar for 20+ minutes if the rest of the group didn't want to go forward., 2 different times on the same raid.



Crafting stations are in the raid. You know it going in and you know it when you're there. Adjust accordingly. Ive had my fair share of silly requests but come on. You want everyone else to adjust because you don't wanna wait? Im a pretty impatient guy and even I don't have issue with that. Adjust to the standard. It isnt that bad.:rolleyes:

Waiting's fine. Waiting ridiculous periods of time isn't. If the group doesn't want to move on, you think it's ok for someone to spend 40+ minutes crafting, while 11 others are ready to move on? 40+ minutes is another quest or 2 people could be doing! 40+ minutes is just under what the whole raid should take! And again, it snowballs. I've seen people make others wait way too long, and they know it, and so they make a mistake in crafting b/c they feel bad about it, and are trying to rush. Then they take even longer trying to correct the mistake.

Jaywade
03-13-2008, 04:39 PM
Can I ask you, where do you get your 20th completion reward for each raid? Can you tell me where inside the instances you were offered the reward, because I've been offered that reward of a half list of raid loot outside the raid, every single time. I'm probably doing something wrong.
don't see why you are even trying to argue where you get the 20th reward at what does that have to do w/ a crafting in the raid



You know what they say happens when you assume.
Actually, you'd be completely wrong, in that I've never made people wait ridiculous periods of time as crafting was explained to me. I realize that while being a game, there are 11 other real life people on the other side of those characters. I was considerate enough to spend a few minutes here and there reading about crafting on this website, and on the ddowiki, so while maybe not fully grasping it, understanding at least what ingredients I needed, how to combine them, to get certain effects. I never needed to sit there as people walked me through the process. But thanks for assuming that I'm a hypocritical pr*ck.
it's good that you got crafting locked down soild, so what if someone takes longer than you did, it's their game time too, and you can move on without them the portal's don't close at the end of 1 and 3, so if you don;t want to wait then don't.... you guys kill me, if the one puger or person that take so long at crafting and doesn't know what they are doing is really taking that one how much effect does that one person have on the entire party I mean could you not clear the stuff in part 2 or the devil scout team in 4 without them ????????

And why pug it? Because sometimes my schedule doesn't coincide w/ my guild, b/c sometimes I see a couple people I know from different guilds on the LFM and it'd be fun to group w/ them again. I do enjoy how people suspected the devs changed the raid loot mechanic in order to encourage pugging, and now we have a mechanic that has people replying on the forum not to take pugs, and don't pug it.
we have lot's of pug going on here at xoriat er I mean thelains and I haven't seen a problem with the raid or crafting in the raid...thank god I haven't had to grp with you guys that are crying about this



Maybe you've just been lucky. I've been in a few raids where it took a ridiculously long time, and other people were getting upset. Recently, was in one group that a person took 20+ minutes (when I stopped paying attention) at each altar. It doesn't sound like a long time, but when you have 11 people ready to move on, it's a ridiculous amount of time. That's more than 40 minutes of time people waste. I thought it was isolated, but then grouped doing regular quests right after, and someone told a story of the same exact thing happening to them in the raid. Only in that raid, people weren't as friendly, and told the guy he needed to have his stuff together, and making people wait that long was ridiculous. The system promotes unnecessary tension. Again, maybe you've just been lucky. Maybe your server's pugs are uberlicious. But maybe I'm guessing that it happens more than you think, considering I'm posting on it, as well as numerous others.
don;t know how many shroud runs I've done yet but it's up there I have not seen a problem with this mech yet.... now I know that some of you do but I think they are fro reasons that IMO are not valid, I have seen no tension , it promotes talking trading and congrats you I have no idea where all this negative stuff about people crafting is comming from

And how does moving on without the person help alleviate the pressure on the person from crafting quickly? Don't you think he'll feel even more pressure if he hears the rest of the party contributing while he's just crafting items? Also, I'm guessing you don't want too many people crafting while everyone else is fighting in part 4. That may just be me though.


Yeah, but it's just me though, right? I mean, i'm sure you'd be fine sitting at an altar for 20+ minutes if the rest of the group didn't want to go forward., 2 different times on the same raid.
I've seen one person take that kinda of time and we waited to kill the last guy on part 2 for him to zone through, one person not that big of a deal




Waiting's fine. Waiting ridiculous periods of time isn't. If the group doesn't want to move on, you think it's ok for someone to spend 40+ minutes crafting, while 11 others are ready to move on? 40+ minutes is another quest or 2 people could be doing! 40+ minutes is just under what the whole raid should take! And again, it snowballs. I've seen people make others wait way too long, and they know it, and so they make a mistake in crafting b/c they feel bad about it, and are trying to rush. Then they take even longer trying to correct the mistake.
I have see people make mistakes <raises hand> but not casued I felt rushed, it happens...again pug this a lot at least doing 4 shroud runs a day now did 7 yesterday (day off) ransacking at least 2 toons a week in there and have not seen the problems you guys speak of


Crafting stations are in the raid. You know it going in and you know it when you're there. Adjust accordingly. Ive had my fair share of silly requests but come on. You want everyone else to adjust because you don't wanna wait? Im a pretty impatient guy and even I don't have issue with that. Adjust to the standard. It isnt that bad.:rolleyes:

thanks the gods some one else that sees the light of day ...big suprise he's also from xoriat.... I've run across my fair shair of pugs that could not do part 4 but I haven;t seen all this nonesense that these folks are talking about ....good form bro

Borror0
03-13-2008, 04:45 PM
I have see people make mistakes <raises hand> but not casued I felt rushed, it happens...again pug this a lot at least doing 4 shroud runs a day now did 7 yesterday (day off) ransacking at least 2 toons a week in there and have not seen the problems you guys speak of

Maybe you don't run into this issue, but it doesn't invalidates that it is there for a lot of us. It's not because that wouldn't benefit to your reality that it wouldn't make a lot of people happier. The real question is, would it hurt you? Would you prefer it staying that way othr than for the sake of avoiding something you don't deem necessary?

If the answer is no, if your gaming would do nothing but maybe improve, why not let us ask for it?

Jaywade
03-13-2008, 05:25 PM
Maybe you don't run into this issue, but it doesn't invalidates that it is there for a lot of us. It's not because that wouldn't benefit to your reality that it wouldn't make a lot of people happier. The real question is, would it hurt you? Would you prefer it staying that way othr than for the sake of avoiding something you don't deem necessary?

If the answer is no, if your gaming would do nothing but maybe improve, why not let us ask for it?

you know I don;t our paths have ever crossed in game, played w/ a lot of your guild mates though....good people.......let me be clear about this, I'm sure soemoen will mis quote me.....

crafting in the shroud does a couple of things that are good for the game..... I've yet to see a shroud run where at least 1 of the following did not happened
someone gave ingredient away so someone could craft
someone traded a ingredient so someone could craft
someone gave a shard away so someone could craft
someone asked for help
someone gave that help
someone got some congrats on the item they were making
someone asked hey what'ca making, talking followed

now it sounds to me like you guys that want this change have no concern about anyone other than your own crafting, which is your right, I hate when people try to tell me to play a certian why, what I am saying to you is if you don't want to help, want to trade, want to talk about crafting, or wait for crafting you don't have to, go on to part 2 he'll catch up...is that one person going to casue you to fail????? and if that answer is yes , well I guess you have to wait...same with part 4 move on if you want, I sur eyou don;t mind that people sell repair and spend time getting sp back ..... want to say this again I've been grinding this thing almost always in pugs and I've yet to see this ruin a raid delay a raid or casue tension.... lighten up guys

Borror0
03-13-2008, 05:46 PM
I've played with you, once, you were on Intherear (withthegear). In a Reaver. But I agree, my guild is full of great people.


now it sounds to me like you guys that want this change have no concern about anyone other than your own crafting, which is your right, I hate when people try to tell me to play a certian why, what I am saying to you is if you don't want to help, want to trade, want to talk about crafting, or wait for crafting you don't have to, go on to part 2

I don't mind waiting for someone or talk about crafting, however not in a raid party. I've spent hours explaining the basics of D&D to newbies. I've explained crafting to countless number of people, however when I'm in a quest I want to play. If, after the quest, the person wants explanations I will gladly help him, give him the proper wiki links and even tell him to ask me any question he got about the game, at any time. I receive a few mails from friends and other peopel and I answer their question about crafting or other aspects of the game.

That's not the problem.

The fact is that there is real life too. Sometimes, I don't have time for explanining. Sometimes I want to get the quest done asap because the group took more time than they should. Sometimes I have a friend waiting after me, a roomate or got to make an important phone call to make after the raid. If someone wants help, he can ask. During the raid, he can say "Damn, I'm missing a [item name] to craft my uber weapon/accessory." If someone feels like giving it to him, he will. No need to have the altar in there for that.

It takes one person to help another, no need to make the ten other wait. If you need help, there is guild chat, you can ask for help in party chat and maybe someone will help you after the raid. I've had guildies explaining a whole raid to a few new players. I had my first titan with them and they have explained it all to me!! And I wasn't in the guild yet!!:eek: however, not the whole party stayed to explain, same here: no need to make the whole party wait.

Jaywade
03-13-2008, 05:59 PM
I've played with you, once, you were on Intherear (withthegear). In a Reaver. But I agree, my guild is full of great people.
well i fyou only had the expericence of me on my cleric man I'm sorry I hate playing cleric's and I'm not that great at it to say the least


I don't mind waiting for someone or talk about crafting, however not in a raid party. I've spent hours explaining the basics of D&D to newbies. I've explained crafting to countless number of people, however when I'm in a quest I want to play. If, after the quest, the person wants explanations I will gladly help him, give him the proper wiki links and even tell him to ask me any question he got about the game, at any time. I receive a few mails from friends and other peopel and I answer their question about crafting or other aspects of the game.

That's not the problem.

The fact is that there is real life too. Sometimes, I don't have time for explanining. Sometimes I want to get the quest done asap because the group took more time than they should. Sometimes I have a friend waiting after me, a roomate or got to make an important phone call to make after the raid. If someone wants help, he can ask. During the raid, he can say "Damn, I'm missing a [item name] to craft my uber weapon/accessory." If someone feels like giving it to him, he will. No need to have the altar in there for that.

It takes one person to help another, no need to make the ten other wait. If you need help, there is guild chat, you can ask for help in party chat and maybe someone will help you after the raid. I've had guildies explaining a whole raid to a few new players. I had my first titan with them and they have explained it all to me!! And I wasn't in the guild yet!!:eek: however, not the whole party stayed to explain, same here: no need to make the whole party wait.

bro my whole point is you DON"T have to wait move on...he'll catch up...this isn't a quick DQ or Reaver raid, it has 5 parts people going afk all over the place you better have at least a 1 hour to do 1-4....and if someone is crafting let them be...you can always move on they will catch up....you can't honestly say that you couldn't clear part 2 becasue of that 1 ranger/fighter/barb/wiz/cleric that was still crafting at the alter on 1...give me a break, don;t wait if it's that big of a issue...just make sur eyou say in your LFM that's your not waiting moren than 5 min on part 1 and 3 ..... don't be surprised though if you have a hard time filling up those grps

Mhykke
03-13-2008, 06:07 PM
you know I don;t our paths have ever crossed in game, played w/ a lot of your guild mates though....good people.......let me be clear about this, I'm sure soemoen will mis quote me.....

crafting in the shroud does a couple of things that are good for the game..... I've yet to see a shroud run where at least 1 of the following did not happened
someone gave ingredient away so someone could craft
How would this change? People could still trade or give away ingredients. I've seen tons of people asking for ingredients in meridia. I've given them ingredients both in the raid and in meridia, w/o asking for anything in return. How would this change prevent someone in meridia asking to swap or get an ingredient?
someone traded a ingredient so someone could craft
Same point. How would this change prevent trading ingredients?
someone gave a shard away so someone could craft
Shard swapping would occur in the exact same way.
someone asked for help
Does someone need to be in the actual raid to get help? Could people not ask for help w/o actually running the raid? You try and make this seem like "you guys should be fine without 1 person." Well let me turn it around to you. Shouldn't you be fine with running any part of the raid while at the same time discussing questions people have?
someone gave that help
Again, I've seen tons of help in meridia, and in the raid. Nobody is talking about telling anyone to shut up if they ask questions while actually raiding. Do you have to stand still and not fight/complete objectives while answering questions?
someone got some congrats on the item they were making
This is a reason? You mean people wouldn't be getting the "nice, congrats, cool item man" if they make something somewhere else? The shroud is the only place to offer congrats?
someone asked hey what'ca making, talking followed
Again, You can't discuss what people are crafting while actually, you know, playing?

now it sounds to me like you guys that want this change have no concern about anyone other than your own crafting, which is your right,
Really? That's what you think is driving this? Having no concern for others? That's a strange viewpoint, and I have absolutely no clue where you get this idea. It seems to you, you can only help others in their crafting in the actual shroud.
I hate when people try to tell me to play a certian why, what I am saying to you is if you don't want to help, want to trade, want to talk about crafting, or wait for crafting you don't have to, go on to part 2 he'll catch up...is that one person going to casue you to fail????? and if that answer is yes ,
Is answering someone's questions WHILE you're completing part 2 going to cause you to fail? Someone can't ask questions while actually playing?
well I guess you have to wait...same with part 4 move on if you want, I sur eyou don;t mind that people sell repair and spend time getting sp back ..... want to say this again I've been grinding this thing almost always in pugs and I've yet to see this ruin a raid delay a raid or casue tension.... lighten up guys
Just b/c you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


Replies in red.

Borror0
03-13-2008, 06:13 PM
bro my whole point is you DON"T have to wait move on...he'll catch up

So? It's a raid, you're supposed to play as a team to get it done, not run without one player. Honestly, I hate having any player waiting on me, I feel less bad when it's guildies but I still mind. I also hate to be missing out on the fun. when the rest of the group is ahead and I'm crafting. I don't know for you, but I play for the fun, not the loot. I'm in a quest, I want to play, to beat the heck out of a mob. I don't want to wait one someone crafting or watching the time-sink animation of crafting a few times, reading pages of wiki to be sure I'm not messing up, etc. I'll do that after the quest. Now, I want to play!

To me, it's the same concept of trying to make a trade in the middle of the quest. Tell the other guy you'd like to trade his item after the quest. Don't try to make the deal in the middle of the quest. Crafting and questing are two different things, as a result, they should be seperated.

PS: I had no issue as with as a cleric.

krud
03-13-2008, 06:19 PM
you know I don;t our paths have ever crossed in game, played w/ a lot of your guild mates though....good people.......let me be clear about this, I'm sure soemoen will mis quote me.....

crafting in the shroud does a couple of things that are good for the game..... I've yet to see a shroud run where at least 1 of the following did not happened
someone gave ingredient away so someone could craft
someone traded a ingredient so someone could craft
someone gave a shard away so someone could craft
someone asked for help
someone gave that help
someone got some congrats on the item they were making
someone asked hey what'ca making, talking followed

now it sounds to me like you guys that want this change have no concern about anyone other than your own crafting, which is your right, I hate when people try to tell me to play a certian why, what I am saying to you is if you don't want to help, want to trade, want to talk about crafting, or wait for crafting you don't have to, go on to part 2 he'll catch up...is that one person going to casue you to fail????? and if that answer is yes , well I guess you have to wait...same with part 4 move on if you want, I sur eyou don;t mind that people sell repair and spend time getting sp back ..... want to say this again I've been grinding this thing almost always in pugs and I've yet to see this ruin a raid delay a raid or casue tension.... lighten up guys

and how does moving two of the raid altars outside the quest prevent any of the above from happening? or even make it occur less often? People always hang on long after the run is over to do this, even on runs that were not for completion. It really doesn't matter where the crafting is going on if people just want to shoot the sheet. None of what you mention will go away. Attributing all of the above to the fact that the altars are located within the shroud seems like a stretch to me. That stuff happens even after reaver raids, "i'm going for this item or that", build discussions, etc. The people who don't have the time or need to participate are free to go. It's not like having them stick around is gonna suddenly make them more generous.

delays may not be the norm right now, but i've experienced it on at least two runs, and i haven't been on that many. It isn't so much of a problem when people have their act together, but more and more uninformed people are going to be available for the raid. It's not going to get better.

btw - On my first shroud raid for one of my characters, I pulled a shard. I had been listening all quest how the pug leader had everything lined up thru the 2nd upgrade, yet couldn't pull a shard. Since, I had just started collecting and figured it would take me a while to get all my stuff together, I passed it to him. We then waited 20 mins or more while 3 or 4 people got their trades in order.

If moving two of the three altars outside the quest does not change the mechanics of the quest or crafting for that matter, then what is the big deal?

JFeenstra
03-13-2008, 06:55 PM
/signed

There were two cases the last two nights of players making mistakes because they were hurrrying. Even though we let them know to take their time - they still felt bad about holding the party up. There is no reason for them to a) feel pressured and b) mess up hard earned ingrediants :(

Move the alters ...

this happened to me actually...i made an earth instead of a water at the lvl 2 alter and nearly screwed up my clerics wis item even though i had plenty of time to craft it was somewhat rushed by the whole party already being in part 4 (without starting)

Jaywade
03-13-2008, 07:49 PM
So? It's a raid, you're supposed to play as a team to get it done, not run without one player. Honestly, I hate having any player waiting on me, I feel less bad when it's guildies but I still mind. I also hate to be missing out on the fun. when the rest of the group is ahead and I'm crafting. I don't know for you, but I play for the fun, not the loot. I'm in a quest, I want to play, to beat the heck out of a mob. I don't want to wait one someone crafting or watching the time-sink animation of crafting a few times, reading pages of wiki to be sure I'm not messing up, etc. I'll do that after the quest. Now, I want to play!

To me, it's the same concept of trying to make a trade in the middle of the quest. Tell the other guy you'd like to trade his item after the quest. Don't try to make the deal in the middle of the quest. Crafting and questing are two different things, as a result, they should be seperated.

PS: I had no issue as with as a cleric.

your being to kind about me and my below average clerical abilites......
but I'm not letting off the hook on this

if you are all about the team why can't you give the man the xtra 5 mins he needs ....I know if he took 20 mins that's a pain it's happend to me once too, but should we make cahnges for the 1-5 % listen the dev's have only so much time and money to spend on this game....I ask you boro what would you rather the dev's spend the next week on ....new content spells monks and expanding crafting (more stuff to make) or changing the alters to be out side ....I know what I'd pick.....


and how does moving two of the raid altars outside the quest prevent any of the above from happening? or even make it occur less often? People always hang on long after the run is over to do this, even on runs that were not for completion. It really doesn't matter where the crafting is going on if people just want to shoot the sheet. None of what you mention will go away. Attributing all of the above to the fact that the altars are located within the shroud seems like a stretch to me. That stuff happens even after reaver raids, "i'm going for this item or that", build discussions, etc. The people who don't have the time or need to participate are free to go. It's not like having them stick around is gonna suddenly make them more generous.

delays may not be the norm right now, but i've experienced it on at least two runs, and i haven't been on that many. It isn't so much of a problem when people have their act together, but more and more uninformed people are going to be available for the raid. It's not going to get better.

btw - On my first shroud raid for one of my characters, I pulled a shard. I had been listening all quest how the pug leader had everything lined up thru the 2nd upgrade, yet couldn't pull a shard. Since, I had just started collecting and figured it would take me a while to get all my stuff together, I passed it to him. We then waited 20 mins or more while 3 or 4 people got their trades in order.

If moving two of the three altars outside the quest does not change the mechanics of the quest or crafting for that matter, then what is the big deal?

IMO it's not a hug delay in quest, every once in a while you do get a long crafter but again do you make changes for teh 1-5 % of the game

it's not game breaking leave it alon the dev's have better things to do ....just check my sig ;)


this happened to me actually...i made an earth instead of a water at the lvl 2 alter and nearly screwed up my clerics wis item even though i had plenty of time to craft it was somewhat rushed by the whole party already being in part 4 (without starting)


that blows I did that as well....not casue I felt rushed but becasue I was being stupid and was looking at a recipe one line lower (on ddo wiki)

Uska
03-13-2008, 11:43 PM
I agree my play time is limited and I dont need someone adding 20-60 minutes to a quest just so they can make their little toy, just leave that last one in their so we can complete the quest and then those that want to can craft to their hearts content.

Cambo
03-13-2008, 11:56 PM
Dont thake them out, i might need to use it with a shard i just found to upgrade my equipment for the next round.

With the powerand knowledge of the twelve, they may developed a limted version of each eldrich device that may let you create tier 2 ingredients and bind them to the shard ready to put on the item next time you are on the raid.

That could save time.

You have the shard of power, the item/wepaon and an orb, done.....quest continues.
Crifting time = 30 seconds.

and hopefully serves both camps
a) not changing the mechanic and
b) providing a limited option to get creafting ready outside the raid.