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Arri
03-12-2008, 01:39 AM
Are we a tank? DPS? maybe off-healer? All of the above even?

So far I'm playing a paladin to unlock drow (how original :P) and maybe down the line 32 point builds, but before I start getting too far in the game, (I'm at marketplace now, need to do steam tunnels etc) I wanted to know what should I be doing in a group? So far I see myself DPSing and possibly using Lay on Hands on a party member in danger.

Granted, I'm going to run into the people who see the paladin symbol and instantly think "tank" or "off-healing", but what should I actually focus on? Should I keep going the way I am now?

Borror0
03-12-2008, 03:17 AM
My paladin has a greataxe and DPS really good.;) Basicly, built properly, you can fill in any roll you want. :)

Mhykke
03-12-2008, 04:39 AM
Granted, I'm going to run into the people who see the paladin symbol and instantly think "tank" or "off-healing", but what should I actually focus on? Should I keep going the way I am now?

Focus on damage. If the party wanted an "off healer", they would've gotten another cleric. Your job is to kill things.

Borror0
03-12-2008, 04:40 AM
Focus on damage. If the party wanted an "off healer", they would've gotten another cleric. Your job is to kill things.

Or a bard... and hope they don't get a warchanter.:D

Seriously, I don't get people hoping paladins to heal...

Vinos
03-12-2008, 07:36 AM
I view paladins as a support tank/caster killer. Not more DPS than a fighter or barb but alot more survivable.

esoitl
03-12-2008, 07:42 AM
depends on your build and style as to what you are, definately not a healer though


you will do spot heals, basically keeping yourself full and alive when you're in trouble and picking up the incapped members at times. you have to remember you are a melee type though so that is your main role

as a paladin requires CHA and WIS whereas fighters and barbs don't, your melee can be somewhat less(DPS much less than that of a barb)
i have an intimi pally running now, not great DPS but thats not how it's built
i could have went with THF or TWF to get the DPS higher but i chose not to

elraido
03-12-2008, 09:44 AM
The paladin is the fighter they send in to take on beholders and mindflairs. :D

artvan_delet
03-12-2008, 10:16 AM
...a class that keeps wondering why the devs have foresaken us.

TheGladiator
03-12-2008, 11:03 AM
A Pally is basically a Battle Cleric :)

sigtrent
03-12-2008, 11:10 AM
I see paladins as defensive combat characters. Your job is to kill things but also to stay alive when better DPS characters would normaly die. Paladins have the best saving throws in the game and they can have the best armor class as well (but they end up sacrificing some DPS if they focus on it). Throw in the healing and self buffs and they are the hardest class to kill.

Not dying isn't sufficient though so you need to do decent damage. It doesn't have to be amazing, just solid and reliable.

Paladins can also be effective "tank" characters who simply pull agro and stay alive while others do the damage dealing.

GeneFrenkle
03-12-2008, 09:18 PM
I see paladins as defensive combat characters. Your job is to kill things but also to stay alive when better DPS characters would normaly die. Paladins have the best saving throws in the game and they can have the best armor class as well (but they end up sacrificing some DPS if they focus on it). Throw in the healing and self buffs and they are the hardest class to kill.

Not dying isn't sufficient though so you need to do decent damage. It doesn't have to be amazing, just solid and reliable.

Paladins can also be effective "tank" characters who simply pull agro and stay alive while others do the damage dealing.

Yep this is the best answer I have seen. A Paladin is not the most efficient front line combatant. For High end content I would not want my Paladin to be the "main tank" in the party. They make excellent secondary combatants, and can save party members in a pinch. Many times the Pally is the last one standing who takes all the stones to the shrine. I've never seen anyone complain about having a Paladin in the party.

Borror0
03-13-2008, 03:03 AM
Yep this is the best answer I have seen.

Not perfect, but most complete,


A Paladin is not the most efficient front line combatant. For High end content I would not want my Paladin to be the "main tank" in the party. They make excellent secondary combatants, and can save party members in a pinch. Many times the Pally is the last one standing who takes all the stones to the shrine.

Maybe yours is more support-oriented, but I know many paladin that are more than suited for front line combat.

I've met incredible intimitanks on a paladin base, I've met paladins using a greataxe and dealing more than decent damage, getting pretty close to what a fighter can do. Paladins can get higher AC, they carry manage almost DPS as good as fighter if spec'd the right way. Then, you add to that UMD, Resist Energy, Deathward in some cases, Lay on Hands and Smite Evil for burst DPS. You get a character that can hold his own pretty good in melee combat.

So, speaking like the paladin is a low DPS combatant may be true in some instances, but it's not the case of all. My best friend I got two paladin that are almost identical, the only difference is that I'm dwarf and she's human, we're greataxe users. Most people are perplex as to how effective we are... until they see our kill count. It's really neat, we DPS mixed with some support. The sad part in this is that you got to sacrifice paladin's biggest strength for that: AC. But hey, it's the way the metagame is, AC isn't worth it unless you push it very high... and once there, unless you go intimitank... you've lost a lot of your effectiveness.


I've never seen anyone complain about having a Paladin in the party.

I've seen that many times. Paladins are in lack of some lovin'. Can't wait to see the love they have in store for us...

Ciaran
03-13-2008, 10:47 AM
Not perfect, but most complete,



Maybe yours is more support-oriented, but I know many paladin that are more than suited for front line combat.

I've met incredible intimitanks on a paladin base, I've met paladins using a greataxe and dealing more than decent damage, getting pretty close to what a fighter can do. Paladins can get higher AC, they carry manage almost DPS as good as fighter if spec'd the right way. Then, you add to that UMD, Resist Energy, Deathward in some cases, Lay on Hands and Smite Evil for burst DPS. You get a character that can hold his own pretty good in melee combat.

So, speaking like the paladin is a low DPS combatant may be true in some instances, but it's not the case of all. My best friend I got two paladin that are almost identical, the only difference is that I'm dwarf and she's human, we're greataxe users. Most people are perplex as to how effective we are... until they see our kill count. It's really neat, we DPS mixed with some support. The sad part in this is that you got to sacrifice paladin's biggest strength for that: AC. But hey, it's the way the metagame is, AC isn't worth it unless you push it very high... and once there, unless you go intimitank... you've lost a lot of your effectiveness.



I've seen that many times. Paladins are in lack of some lovin'. Can't wait to see the love they have in store for us...

Excellent points, Borr. Paladins certainly can do just fine in DPS if built for it. Most of the time they aren't outkilling raging barbs, but then who is besides a sorcerer?

I haven't seen any paladin hate when I've played mine - never been turned down for a group because "they needed a tank". I don't know, that's probably because any questions about my paladin's effectiveness are most of the time answered by looking at the kill count and seeing that I'm able to hold my own, if not lead in kills, as well as help heal, raise and buff party members.

Not saying that it doesn't happen, and not to argue that paladins don't need loving, I'm just saying I've been pretty lucky in that regard and I think I've also shown that my paladin isn't a drain on party resources.

oronisi
03-13-2008, 01:49 PM
I see paladins as defensive combat characters. Your job is to kill things but also to stay alive when better DPS characters would normaly die. Paladins have the best saving throws in the game and they can have the best armor class as well (but they end up sacrificing some DPS if they focus on it). Throw in the healing and self buffs and they are the hardest class to kill.

Not dying isn't sufficient though so you need to do decent damage. It doesn't have to be amazing, just solid and reliable.

Paladins can also be effective "tank" characters who simply pull agro and stay alive while others do the damage dealing.

Too bad when all our DPS characters go in to fight the pit fiend, the paladins are usually the first to go down. Survivability in DDO = HP. Its sad, but generally true.

Kris_P._Letus
03-13-2008, 01:59 PM
The paladin is the fighter they send in to take on beholders and mindflairs. :D

LOL!!! how true!! i dont know how many times ive had to run in and pimp slap the beholders with my pali.

ellamonster
03-13-2008, 02:12 PM
Yeah my Dwarven Pally is built to be the last man standing. Around level 10 I was ruling in DPS and kill matching everybody. Now I can't seem to keep my DPS high enough. So I changed him a little bit. Heh I have taken Toughness 3 times and am wearing the Minos Helm. With both Dwarven Toughness and Pallly Toughness enhancements taken I have 423 hp. As far as combat I feel as if I switched places with the level 6-9 ranger or so when they were doing stat damage and cursespewing and such.

I do charge the spellcasters and then generally look around to see who needs help. A paralyzer works well to help the sorcerer if he is running his aggro train through a firewall. ;) /Shrug it's not the same and kinda frustrating that I can generally solo high end content but can't kill the boss because there is no way I can overcome the big boss regen! Oh well he is still fun in a group. I just am building solo alts now. :rolleyes:

Kawiki
03-13-2008, 02:24 PM
A Pally is basically a poor man's Battle Cleric :)

I have edited the above. :D

Honestly, Paladins are a class best tossed in as a splash. There really is no compelling reason to stay pure.

My advice would be to Play your Pally until you get Drow favor then roll a Drow Wiz or a Sorc and use him/her to climb to 1750 for your 32 pt builds. Casters are abit hard to play in the early stages but once you get to level 7-9 ish with a little smarts you will be able to solo a large percentage of quests which will make the climb to 1750 a piece of cake.

Basic build advice on casters: Max your Int or Chr and put as much as you can in CON.

Borror0
03-13-2008, 02:47 PM
Not saying that it doesn't happen, and not to argue that paladins don't need loving, I'm just saying I've been pretty lucky in that regard and I think I've also shown that my paladin isn't a drain on party resources.

Unless you plan to totally focus on AC, which is something better left to fighters and multiclassed paladins, or totally focus on DPS, which is the barbarian/ranger's speciality, your paladin lack behind other melee combatant. Paladins, when built nicely, are very effective. The problem is that they end up no better than anyone, in any type of build. Want a DPS build with buffs? Go ranger or bard. One of paladin's strength was AC, for that fact, paladins were Kings when the level cap was 12! You could see paladins everywhere. They had good AC and you'd pick up a khopesh and do great dmaage. To that you'd add crazy saves, resists or Evasion and UMD.

Now, AC is worth nothing... unless you go fully for it. Everywhere in-between isn't "enough". Plus, the gear is really hard to get andyou'd have to make CE fit on a paladin... not that easy. Almost impossible with a few tomes and 32 point build. You could always pickup a greataxe and get, I admit, a very fun build. However, you'd be behind a ranger's DPS and you would be less survivable then him for the lack of Evasion (you could splash Rogue, but he could splash paladin and still beat you in DPS).

It is not that paladin cannot hold their own in melee combat, that would be false. They still can, the situation isn't alarming. however, we're over due for more. We're been lacking, like gpk often points out, for near a year now. We're in need of "more", not because we're that behind, but because we're behind everyoen else for too long now. We lost our main strength, AC, but development decisions. By how they made it hard to get where it truely matters. So, we're asking for more...

... let's hope it works. They said paladin love in module 7. Let's see what we'll get.

As for proving your paladin is not a drain, it's all about the bad player versus good player story. People will prefer to take a good paladin over an awful barbarian. However, good versus good, the barbarian might win. Sometimes, a group just need that little more DPS.

Mhykke
03-13-2008, 04:51 PM
We're a little bit country......we're a little bit rock and roll....

elraido
03-14-2008, 08:48 AM
We are the characters with the highest saves and who always roll ones.

llevenbaxx
03-14-2008, 10:20 AM
They are a flex class. Depending on what stat allocation you use and how you gear yourself out will be important on what role(s) you want for your paly. If you build a low str high cha paly, dont expect to be an offensive juggernaut later in the game. If you want to be more affective in fight, dont be afraid to pick up a couple levels of ftr either. A friend of mine made a high cha paly to be a mostly support character who can help heal pretty well, lend a little to offense(though he also made the all cha/low str mistake) and is incredibly durable.

I set out to make an offensive paly(WF 12pal/4ftr currently) and really enjoy playing him. He couldnt back-up heal his way out of a wet paper bag but he can drop some critical LOHs to save the day or just himself. With a little love in the enhancement dept, I think their versatility will once again step out of the shadow of the more focused classes.

Also think a good way to gimp a paly is to build them overly focused. They are a class based on versatility and survivability, to not build in that regard is to build a weak character... and remember, your cha doesnt/shouldnt help you hit/kill(aside from smite) likewise you dont need a 30 cha for it to be extremely helpful/lifesaving. Dont plan on being the best at anything but better at more than most.;)

EDIT If you are a min/maxer, paly is a great way to frustrate youself in the extreme.:)

Ciaran
03-14-2008, 10:24 AM
Unless you plan to totally focus on AC, which is something better left to fighters and multiclassed paladins, or totally focus on DPS, which is the barbarian/ranger's speciality, your paladin lack behind other melee combatant. Paladins, when built nicely, are very effective. The problem is that they end up no better than anyone, in any type of build. Want a DPS build with buffs? Go ranger or bard. One of paladin's strength was AC, for that fact, paladins were Kings when the level cap was 12! You could see paladins everywhere. They had good AC and you'd pick up a khopesh and do great dmaage. To that you'd add crazy saves, resists or Evasion and UMD.

Now, AC is worth nothing... unless you go fully for it. Everywhere in-between isn't "enough". Plus, the gear is really hard to get andyou'd have to make CE fit on a paladin... not that easy. Almost impossible with a few tomes and 32 point build. You could always pickup a greataxe and get, I admit, a very fun build. However, you'd be behind a ranger's DPS and you would be less survivable then him for the lack of Evasion (you could splash Rogue, but he could splash paladin and still beat you in DPS).

It is not that paladin cannot hold their own in melee combat, that would be false. They still can, the situation isn't alarming. however, we're over due for more. We're been lacking, like gpk often points out, for near a year now. We're in need of "more", not because we're that behind, but because we're behind everyoen else for too long now. We lost our main strength, AC, but development decisions. By how they made it hard to get where it truely matters. So, we're asking for more...

... let's hope it works. They said paladin love in module 7. Let's see what we'll get.

As for proving your paladin is not a drain, it's all about the bad player versus good player story. People will prefer to take a good paladin over an awful barbarian. However, good versus good, the barbarian might win. Sometimes, a group just need that little more DPS.

I totally agree. I guess I've been being overly humble when considering my paladin's effectiveness; I don't consider myself to be that good of a player but I do think I know my way around the melee classes pretty well and I have also gotten some good gear. Gear only counts for so much, though.

It's true that a well-played paladin and a well-played barbarian/fighter with similar equipment are not usually going to be on equal ground in terms of DPS and/or AC and it's here that paladins need the most help, along with paladin only spells that make spell casting more worthwhile. For instance if they implemented Mark of Justice to be an enchantment spell that for a short period of time, say a minute, inflicted the same amount of damage to the mob that it was dealing to you. Just spitballin' here is all.

MOD7 I am highly anticipating to see what kind of help they are giving paladins. Even though the point I was trying to make in another thread was hopelessly twisted and lost and my actual thoughts on the entirety of the topic were either missed, overlooked or assumed, I have long felt that paladins needed some serious attention around the time Gianthold debuted, if not before then. Paladins absolutely rocked when the cap was 10, were damn good when the cap was 12 and since then have fallen into being okay. I think it's just as hard to build a decent paladin as it is or was to build a decent ranger. I still see more ranger hate than paladin hate, though.

The change to AC auras though is kind of moot at this point. Even if they were to give paladins back the AC auras they once enjoyed they would still most likely fall short of having a meaningful AC in the end game. I'd like to see something like choosing a path, call it "Defender" which would focus on AC and defense or "Crusader" which would focus on offense. Changing Smite Evil from a timer to some other form would also be a welcome change.

GlassCannon
03-14-2008, 12:03 PM
A Pally is basically a Battle Cleric :)

without the nukem spells, lol..