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Knightrose
03-11-2008, 09:23 AM
One thing I have always longed to enjoy in DDO is a pure sniper. A Ranger designed to rely chiefly on ranged combat DPS. I still do not (to this day) feel that is possible. Even with Deepwood Sniper enh.

Would it be so imbalancing to increase the rate-of-fire with ranged weaponry (especially bows) so as to make Ranged-Ranger DPS more competitive?

I've also felt oppressed by many dungeon designs with Rangers I have played.

Of course it is clear that a Ranger is designed to be the versatile combatant. But they are also (by D&D norm) a class specifically designed to excel at Ranged combat. They do excel, but I feel they are underpowered.

What must be done? Should anything be done?

Xaxx
03-11-2008, 09:32 AM
so you want more dps when the entire point of your dps is to stay out of the way of mobs.... tanks dps stays right in the path of mobs and takes dmg.... do you not see the trade off between the two here... you know the *tanks take dmg ranged is supposed to keep out of range of it*...... so why should the dpb be closer???

Knightrose
03-11-2008, 09:35 AM
Well there's many ways to approach your argument Xaxx. All I'll point our right now is that a sniper also makes sacrfices in order to be specialized in ranged combat.

I guess another suggesion could be making Deepwood Sniper enh. more like a Barbarians Critical Rage enh.

Altarboy
03-11-2008, 09:37 AM
so you want more dps when the entire point of your dps is to stay out of the way of mobs.... tanks dps stays right in the path of mobs and takes dmg.... do you not see the trade off between the two here... you know the *tanks take dmg ranged is supposed to keep out of range of it*...... so why should the dpb be closer???

Ummm my Sorc will out DPS any tank....and he's ranged too. I agree with the OP I would love to see a little more firepower for a true range-ranger

Turen
03-11-2008, 09:45 AM
Rangers or fighters that are achery spec'd do not crit anywhere near enough. That is half the problem. Most of the bows crit on a natural 20 and with the correct skills crit on a 19 to 20. There is maybe a few bows that crit on 19-20 then goto 17-20. Just about any weapon a fighter gets can be made to crit on a 17-20 and I have heard people using rapiers critting as low as a 13. That is not balanced at all.

llevenbaxx
03-11-2008, 09:53 AM
so you want more dps when the entire point of your dps is to stay out of the way of mobs.... tanks dps stays right in the path of mobs and takes dmg.... do you not see the trade off between the two here... you know the *tanks take dmg ranged is supposed to keep out of range of it*...... so why should the dpb be closer???

If ranged combatants could kill things at range like a ftr or paly could in melee they would have little to no prob staying away from the mobs in many cases. Thats why ftr/paly/barb can easily get more hps than a ranger. Your argument doesnt really address damage delt by a character, just who can take a hit better. The two have no reason to be parallel, I can take a hit better so I should be able to hit harder? How about this; I cant take a hit as well so I should be better able to kill from range. That work?

We should be getting the same number of attacks melee get. Our stances should be toggle not timer. All these cuts have made ranged combat a sorry thing in DDO.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-11-2008, 10:21 AM
Multi-shot.
Improved Crit
Good bow
And often overlooked special arrows.

Your DPS will be fine.....at least for those few seconds of multi-shot.

Will you out DPS the raging Brb? Probably not, but it is possible. And you might stay alive longer....especially if you face a lot of casters.

Yeah, I wish ranged was faster too......but it's not as broken as most people think.

People really overlook special arrows....mostly because it is difficult to acquire them in numbers and they take up a lot of inventory space.........but they are great if you can get em. All my toons pass them to my Archer.

llevenbaxx
03-11-2008, 10:26 AM
Your DPS will be fine.....at least for those few seconds of multi-shot.

.

Then what though?

Hope the fight is over?:)

If MS was toggle like power attack I dont think any of us would be here having this conversation. Its after those couple seconds are up is the problem.

Having Cold Iron and Adamantine arrows is really nice too like you said but cumbersome to really stock a useful amount. Cant wait for quivers.:)

Mad_Bombardier
03-11-2008, 11:07 AM
Multi-shot.
Improved Crit
Good bow
And often overlooked special arrows.

Your DPS will be fine.....at least for those few seconds of multi-shot.There are many nuances to ranged combat in DDO; stacking arrows with bows, Manyshot, "conga line" trains of mobs with Improved Precise Shot, etc.

But, 53 arrows per minute + 51 extra arrows for 20 seconds of Manyshot + 53 arrows for the next minute of Manyshot cooldown = 157 arrows per 2 minutes = 78 arrows per minute. Compare to 1HF 89 attacks per minute, TWF 168 attacks per minute, and THF 81 attacks per minute + glancing blows. Bow combat is still too slow (except for Repeaters which got a rewrite and are now too fast at 120 bolts per minute).

Mercules
03-11-2008, 11:38 AM
But they are also (by D&D norm) a class specifically designed to excel at Ranged combat.

Um... actually Fighters are designed by D&D norm to excel at all forms of combat including Ranged. Rangers are specifically designed to be a great wilderness fighter and very self reliant and versatile while Fighters are designed to(oddly enough) fight. A well designed Ranged Combat Fighter will be better than a well designed Ranged Combat Ranger in D&D at ranged combat. That is their shtick.

Throw the Ranger-centric comments out and I'll agree that Ranged Combat could be better in most cases.

Cap_Man
03-11-2008, 11:42 AM
The rate of fire is one issue I have with ranged combat but what finally got me to shelve my attempts at ranged toons was the unbreakable animation sequence of getting an arrow, drawing the bow and firing. Many a times I was killed mashing my sword and board hot key while my toon seemed to leisurely continue with his ranged attack. Yeah, maybe it was just the time need to switch weapons but I never have this same frustration with my twf builds when switching weapons.

I may be wrong but it seems with the ranged combat that you first finish your attack animation then go into the weapon switch delay. What ever the reason, I found it very frustrating playing a ranged toon. I've tried twice getting one toon up to level 8 and an other to level 5 before I gave up in frustration.

JFeenstra
03-11-2008, 12:54 PM
The rate of fire is one issue I have with ranged combat but what finally got me to shelve my attempts at ranged toons was the unbreakable animation sequence of getting an arrow, drawing the bow and firing. Many a times I was killed mashing my sword and board hot key while my toon seemed to leisurely continue with his ranged attack. Yeah, maybe it was just the time need to switch weapons but I never have this same frustration with my twf builds when switching weapons.

I may be wrong but it seems with the ranged combat that you first finish your attack animation then go into the weapon switch delay. What ever the reason, I found it very frustrating playing a ranged toon. I've tried twice getting one toon up to level 8 and an other to level 5 before I gave up in frustration.this definitely needs to be fixed

instant switch (basically) melee weapons but it takes a good 5-10+ seconds to swap out a bow for anything between shots, and it takes even longer with auto attack on

personally it'd be nice to be able to pop a shot off with my twf ranger and actually have my weapons out by the time i get to whatever i shot at

llevenbaxx
03-11-2008, 01:01 PM
this definitely needs to be fixed

instant switch (basically) melee weapons but it takes a good 5-10+ seconds to swap out a bow for anything between shots, and it takes even longer with auto attack on

personally it'd be nice to be able to pop a shot off with my twf ranger and actually have my weapons out by the time i get to whatever i shot at

Quick Draw would almost completely alleviate your problem I think... at the cost of a feat. Its the quickest switch out possible. Have only tried it on a thrown weapon character but it did seem to change weapons almost immediately.

Another way to bolster ranged combat is in crafting possibly. Making custom arrows might also help. Curse-spewing arrows from a paralyzing bow. Bursting arrows from a bursting of PG bow. ROF and toggle MS seem to be the biggest no brainers to correct its gimpyness though imo.

JFeenstra
03-11-2008, 01:03 PM
Quick Draw would almost completely alleviate your problem I think... at the cost of a feat. Its the quickest switch out possible. Have only tried it on a thrown weapon character but it did seem to change weapons almost immediately.

Another way to bolster ranged combat is in crafting possibly. Making custom arrows might also help. Curse-spewing arrows from a paralyzing bow. Bursting arrows from a bursting of PG bow. ROF and toggle MS seem to be the biggest no brainers to correct its gimpyness though imo.

that'd be a great way to waste a feat for my ranger, who will be pure twf at 16

toggle ms, however, would solve all ranged issues, as it'd be around 2.5-3x ROF, no one would ever turn it off

Mercules
03-11-2008, 01:21 PM
I may be wrong but it seems with the ranged combat that you first finish your attack animation then go into the weapon switch delay. What ever the reason, I found it very frustrating playing a ranged toon. I've tried twice getting one toon up to level 8 and an other to level 5 before I gave up in frustration.


this definitely needs to be fixed

instant switch (basically) melee weapons but it takes a good 5-10+ seconds to swap out a bow for anything between shots, and it takes even longer with auto attack on

personally it'd be nice to be able to pop a shot off with my twf ranger and actually have my weapons out by the time i get to whatever i shot at

This was changed to fix an issue where moving, clicking on anything, sneezing, restarted your load animation. Basically if you fired an arrow and switched to a weapon, when you switched back you would "reload". It was very difficult to reload when EVERYTHING broke it. They made it so you can reload while moving, but their compromise was that you couldn't do anything else until you reload your weapon. It wouldn't be that big of a deal if the game correctly read my clicks and I often didn't have an "extra" shot after I stop clicking. I have gotten pretty good with 3 clicking a repeater, but I have issues interrupting bow attacks.



that'd be a great way to waste a feat for my ranger, who will be pure twf at 16

toggle ms, however, would solve all ranged issues, as it'd be around 2.5-3x ROF, no one would ever turn it off

No... it would NOT solve ALL ranged issues as throwing weapons and crossbows are not affected by multi-shot. So it would solve 1/3 of the ranged issues. :rolleyes:

Talon_Moonshadow
03-11-2008, 01:26 PM
I would never say that ranged combat is not broke or does not need improving.

But....

for 20secs you can rule!

Ranged combat is not just for rangers.
My ranged ftr is better than any ranger I have seen. (with my bow.....and before MOD6)
Ranged fixes need to apply to all......even clerics with crossbows.

And you have to know when to switch to melee to avoid being whacked or how to get out of the way, preferably in a way that does not anger your fellow players as they run around after the monster you have agroed.

I have taken a trick from arcanes........run toward the charging baddie and toward your party......jump over the baddie.....then turn around and run backwards...........seems to have better chance of not being whacked on.
(like jumping around through a firewall)
Or if you choose to switch to melee....do so very early to avoid being whacked......unfortuanately some baddies will then decide to turn around and go after someone else......but it seems if you switch back to ranged, they do not reagro on you as quickly as usual.

Wait to attack until someone else already has agro......and if you are still drawing agro after this.....well......I'd say your DPS is fine.

Mercules
03-11-2008, 01:58 PM
I have taken a trick from arcanes........run toward the charging baddie and toward your party......jump over the baddie.....then turn around and run backwards...........seems to have better chance of not being whacked on.

I tend to keep track of where the mob and I are in relation to more melee-centric characters and tumble through them if I gain more agro than I want. This usually results in the mobs having to move around the other character and either they whack them and gain their agro, or the time they wasted going around the other character gives me a few more shots to finish them off. Don't kite away from your party when you can bring them right too someone else who can help you kill them.

JFeenstra
03-11-2008, 03:03 PM
No... it would NOT solve ALL ranged issues as throwing weapons and crossbows are not affected by multi-shot. So it would solve 1/3 of the ranged issues. :rolleyes:i've yet to see a high level char using an xbow that's not a repeater, and definitely dont see throwing weapons being used unless they're like vorpal or something :)

Mercules
03-11-2008, 03:09 PM
i've yet to see a high level char using an xbow that's not a repeater, and definitely dont see throwing weapons being used unless they're like vorpal or something :)

And? That means we should just ignore them? Next you will be saying Light Hammers shouldn't spawn as treasure because they are worse than Light Maces and Bastard Swords should be removed as well. ;)

I do use throwing weapons on any non-ranged focussed character. Many of them have looked for weapons with an extra affect sometimes something as simple as Shock. They are not my primary weapon, but I do make use of them. Not everyone hits haste and charges or buffs with Jump, Displacement, and Haste and drops a Firewall. Some people pull a mob or two out of a group, finish them off and then finish off the now weakened group. :)

JFeenstra
03-11-2008, 03:17 PM
throwing weapons, especially returners, are already too quick imo...when i can stack FIVE of them on top of each other in a wall, where am i getting my extra 4 when i throw my returner? it should take time to get back to you

as for xbows, they're supposed to be considerably slower than regular bows, look up the physics of them they take a long time to reload and do more damage because of how they're put together

in retrospect, always on multishot would make ranged combat something that gets considerably abused, especially with crafted weapons like the ~700 damage shock bow

Mercules
03-11-2008, 03:23 PM
throwing weapons, especially returners, are already too quick imo...when i can stack FIVE of them on top of each other in a wall, where am i getting my extra 4 when i throw my returner? it should take time to get back to you

Oh no... some cool graphics means I should throw slower. :p



as for xbows, they're supposed to be considerably slower than regular bows, look up the physics of them they take a long time to reload and do more damage because of how they're put together

Which is why you need to take a feat to increase the rate of fire, namely Rapid Reload. Yes they should be slower than a bow before spending a feat on using them in a quicker fashion, but they should still be an option and similar once feats are spent.

llevenbaxx
03-11-2008, 03:31 PM
Which is why you need to take a feat to increase the rate of fire, namely Rapid Reload. Yes they should be slower than a bow before spending a feat on using them in a quicker fashion, but they should still be an option and similar once feats are spent.

No they shouldnt. Bows should work off BAB just like melee, correct?

After Rapid Reload, crossbow rate of fire is pretty much capped I thought, due to the physics involved with reloading.

I must admit to never having used a repeating crossbow in PnP but I believe they still required a reload action of some type(move action maybe), they werent "magically" reloading, like in DDO.

JFeenstra
03-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Oh no... some cool graphics means I should throw slower. :pyes, because if you throw a SINGLE returning weapon, you should have to wait for it to come back to you before you can throw it again, not magically whip out copies of it until the cows come home :)


Which is why you need to take a feat to increase the rate of fire, namely Rapid Reload. Yes they should be slower than a bow before spending a feat on using them in a quicker fashion, but they should still be an option and similar once feats are spent.
yes, rr will speed up crossbow reloading, but ranged fire is still fast enough for the classes that are supposed to be good at it (ranger and fighter)

ranged combat is supposed to be slow...load arrow, aim, fire, repeat

as opposed to swing sword/axe/random body part and hope you connect

what ranged really needs is better crits (a skilled archer should be able to hit something 100 paces away in the head 9/10 times, yet bows crits are pretty much 20 only) and targeted shots, but targeted shots would be incredibly hard to implement in an mmo

Turial
03-11-2008, 03:48 PM
No they shouldnt. Bows should work off BAB just like melee, correct?

After Rapid Reload, crossbow rate of fire is pretty much capped I thought, due to the physics involved with reloading.

I must admit to never having used a repeating crossbow in PnP but I believe they still required a reload action of some type(move action maybe), they werent "magically" reloading, like in DDO.



A ranged combat user gets the same number of attacks per round as a melee combat user.

A bow coupled with rapid shot gets an extra attack at the highest BAB for 5 attacks per round. Manyshot is a full round action that fires all of the arrows at the same BAB and die roll (put all your eggs in one basic type of thing).

A light crossbow when coupled with rapid reload can make use of the rapid fire feat because the move action to reload becomes a free action to reload. This gives the light crossbow user the same number of shots as a bow user (with no feats) the cost of 2 feats (light crossbows due get the better crit range to make up for no manyshot).

Heavy crossbows require a full round to reload and when coupled with rapid reload they can fire as fast as a normal light crossbow user with no feats. Rapid reload doesnt work with heavy crossbows because the reload is still a move action.

Repeaters shoot in short bursts at the cost of a full round action to reload. With rapid reload they become a move action to reload but make up for the exotic profiency with the short bursts of higher crit bolts.

Part of the issue in beta was that crossbows, specifically repeaters, fired at the same rate as bows which led to a lot of repeater builds causing all sorts of issues. ROA for ranged was toned way back for all ranged forms which still places repeaters above bows. Because of this one cannot simply change ROA for all the ranged weapons or make manyshot a stance as it stands now because it would give ranged combat users many more attacks the melee. To the point that it becomes more powerful.

Turial
03-11-2008, 03:52 PM
ranged combat is supposed to be slow...load arrow, aim, fire, repeat

as opposed to swing sword/axe/random body part and hope you connect


Where does it say this in any pnp book? Pnp books generally read that classes get a number of attacks based on their class or how long a spell takes to cast. In pnp a +1 BAB class gets x number of attacks regardless of the weapon they use.

One may make a point that str based melee is faster do to the twitch muscles involved but that would be countered by the concept that dex based ranged combat is based on the nimbleness and quickness in movement that the ranged combat user would likely have.

JFeenstra
03-11-2008, 03:59 PM
Where does it say this in any pnp book? Pnp books generally read that classes get a number of attacks based on their class or how long a spell takes to cast. In pnp a +1 BAB class gets x number of attacks regardless of the weapon they use.

One may make a point that str based melee is faster do to the twitch muscles involved but that would be countered by the concept that dex based ranged combat is based on the nimbleness and quickness in movement that the ranged combat user would likely have.

im talking actual physics of the types of combat vs dnd ruling here

no where does it say that ranged is supposed to be slower, im just stating that physically it takes longer to fire a bow than swing a sword, having done both (and i'd say i personally have an average str and dex for a 20 something year old, ha)

Mercules
03-11-2008, 04:16 PM
No they shouldnt. Bows should work off BAB just like melee, correct?

After Rapid Reload, crossbow rate of fire is pretty much capped I thought, due to the physics involved with reloading.

I must admit to never having used a repeating crossbow in PnP but I believe they still required a reload action of some type(move action maybe), they werent "magically" reloading, like in DDO.

Nope... Light Crossbows should fire as fast as a Bow if you have the Rapid Reload feat as both are a Free Action to reload. Specifically says so in the rules.

Repeaters go from a Full Action to a Move Action which means you can reload and fire a single shot in that turn and then fire up to your BAB next turn until the crossbow runs out of bolts at which point you would do the Reload and fire one shot. So a Repeater user can keep a pretty constant stream of bolts going almost as much as a Bow user as long as he has Rapid Reload.


yes, because if you throw a SINGLE returning weapon, you should have to wait for it to come back to you before you can throw it again, not magically whip out copies of it until the cows come home :)

Which happens for your next "turn" according to the description, but D&D is all about rounds now so what turn refers to is up to debate.



yes, rr will speed up crossbow reloading, but ranged fire is still fast enough for the classes that are supposed to be good at it (ranger and fighter)

ranged combat is supposed to be slow...load arrow, aim, fire, repeat

as opposed to swing sword/axe/random body part and hope you connect

what ranged really needs is better crits (a skilled archer should be able to hit something 100 paces away in the head 9/10 times, yet bows crits are pretty much 20 only) and targeted shots, but targeted shots would be incredibly hard to implement in an mmo

You would be surprised how quickly a skilled user can fire their weapon. Also remember that your melee attacks in D&D are not in any way related to how many swings you take. What this means is that while you might swing 12 times in that 6 second window you only have X number of "attacks" which represent finding a possible hole in your opponent's defense. The number of arrows you can shoot equals the number of attack opportunities you can find in a combat round. Ignore "real world rational" while working with rules for an RPG as most combat in RPGs is abstract.

Mercules
03-11-2008, 04:18 PM
im talking actual physics of the types of combat vs dnd ruling here

no where does it say that ranged is supposed to be slower, im just stating that physically it takes longer to fire a bow than swing a sword, having done both (and i'd say i personally have an average str and dex for a 20 something year old, ha)

And again... Every "attack" in D&D is NOT a swing of a sword. It's a moment of being able to stick your weapon home in that parry-thrust-swing-parry action. You swing a LOT but you only attack a few times every round. :rolleyes:

Boulderun
03-11-2008, 04:28 PM
Another unnecessary impediment to archery is the composite bow projectile speed bug, which still has yet to be acknowledged. Half the bows in the game are firing arrows at a far slower velocity than they are supposed to post-mod 6, leading to terrible performance.

Untargetted IPS was a great idea, but a lot of non-targetted shots vanish into the aether, pass straight through some foes without registering, and/or are blocked by incorporeal geometry.

Stacking arrow bonuses is a potential advantage for archery, but it's barely viable. Sturdy arrows and bolts last long enough to make ranged combat viable at all, but only just. With the logistics in acquiring, transferring, holding, and organizing special ammo the way they are, it's enough to make me just draw two wounders and go TWF (while 100% bow-spec'd). My ranger carries an array of common and greater slaying arrows (evil out, elemental, undead, gnoll, ooze, aberr., etc), in addition to a stock of sturdy arrows, exotic arrows when necessary (shroud/dq), and on top of that has to keep a full range of melee weapons for use when bow damage is just too marginal to justify his party slot. Quivers in mod 7 are sure to help, but it remains to be seen how much.

Boulderun
03-11-2008, 04:32 PM
And again... Every "attack" in D&D is NOT a swing of a sword. It's a moment of being able to stick your weapon home in that parry-thrust-swing-parry action. You swing a LOT but you only attack a few times every round. :rolleyes:

That was the justification of 2nd edition's 1-minute round. 3rd edition did away with that hand-waving when implementing the 6-second round.

Knightrose
03-11-2008, 06:45 PM
I think they should just make multishot permanent through feats or something. So as to penalize you in some way for going pure sniper.

JFeenstra
03-11-2008, 06:55 PM
I think they should just make multishot permanent through feats or something. So as to penalize you in some way for going pure sniper.that would be a penalty how?

i dont know a single ranged character that would dislike having permanent multishot, especially with arcane archer and being able to manufacture arrows

Knightrose
03-11-2008, 07:04 PM
that would be a penalty how?

i dont know a single ranged character that would dislike having permanent multishot, especially with arcane archer and being able to manufacture arrows

Well if you're spending feats on only one arena of combat you could understand that to be a 'penalty'. Sort of like taking Shot on the Run or Spring Attack, or even Whirlwind Attack. You give the ability to do a number of other things (like having more attacks per round with TWF) in order to specialize in ranged combat.

Mercules
03-11-2008, 07:25 PM
That was the justification of 2nd edition's 1-minute round. 3rd edition did away with that hand-waving when implementing the 6-second round.

6 seconds is far to long for a single swing of a sword. Count it out or watch it on a watch and realize how long 6 seconds is. Now wander down to some place where people actually fight. Once they stop dancing around for position the blows tend to fall rather fast. 6 second rounds represent that dancing and getting the occasional opening for a good solid blow, even though you likely swing much more than that. If you don't believe me then it is unlike you have done much sparing or been in a real fight.

salmag
03-11-2008, 07:34 PM
that would be a penalty how?

i dont know a single ranged character that would dislike having permanent multishot, especially with arcane archer and being able to manufacture arrows

Manyshot should be a toggleable stance or the cooldown timer should be lowered to 20 -30 secs. If you want to use enhancements, how about trying this:

Manyshot Quicken I: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 120 secs to 100)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot. Minimum level 8.
Cost: 1 action points

Manyshot Quicken II: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 100 sec to 80)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken I. Minimum level 10.
Cost: 2 action points

Manyshot Quicken III: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 80 sec to 60)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken II. Minimum level 12.
Cost: 3 action points

Manyshot Quicken IV: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 60 to 40)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken III. Minimum level 14.
Cost: 4 action points

Manyshot Quicken V: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 40 to 20)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken IV. Minimum level 16.
Cost: 5 action points

Manyshot Quicken VI: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown to zero- making it a toggle)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken V. Minimum level 18
Cost: 6 action points

Lets face it - by level 18, THERE SHOULD BE NO COOLDOWN TIMER. An archer should be extremely proficient by this point.

llevenbaxx
03-12-2008, 07:16 AM
Manyshot should be a toggleable stance or the cooldown timer should be lowered to 20 -30 secs. If you want to use enhancements, how about trying this:

Manyshot Quicken I: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 120 secs to 100)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot. Minimum level 8.
Cost: 1 action points

Manyshot Quicken II: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 100 sec to 80)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken I. Minimum level 10.
Cost: 2 action points

Manyshot Quicken III: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 80 sec to 60)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken II. Minimum level 12.
Cost: 3 action points

Manyshot Quicken IV: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 60 to 40)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken III. Minimum level 14.
Cost: 4 action points

Manyshot Quicken V: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown from 40 to 20)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken IV. Minimum level 16.
Cost: 5 action points

Manyshot Quicken VI: Lowers Manyshot cooldown timer by another 20 secs (lowers cooldown to zero- making it a toggle)
Pre-req: Must have Manyshot Quicken V. Minimum level 18
Cost: 6 action points

Lets face it - by level 18, THERE SHOULD BE NO COOLDOWN TIMER. An archer should be extremely proficient by this point.

This would be an awesome enhancement line to impliment. It has obvious significant benefits to the ranger who decides to stay pure class all the way while still letting some multiclass rangers increase the usefulness of their MS. Very nice benefit for moderate/high investment. I can think of any reason a ranged ranger wouldnt pick up at least a couple levels of this for good benefit without turning them into a "need" enhancement line.

Hvymetal
03-12-2008, 07:31 AM
6 seconds is far to long for a single swing of a sword. Count it out or watch it on a watch and realize how long 6 seconds is. Now wander down to some place where people actually fight. Once they stop dancing around for position the blows tend to fall rather fast. 6 second rounds represent that dancing and getting the occasional opening for a good solid blow, even though you likely swing much more than that. If you don't believe me then it is unlike you have done much sparing or been in a real fight.
Well actually a full attack action is going to give you multiple attacks during that six second period providing your BAB is of sufficient level to provide additional attacks. I believe part of that round is still intended as the jockeying for position and waiting for openings thet does happen during real combat.

Having fenced for a couple of years two opponents do not just stand there and whack away at one another as fast as they can, you spend a lot of that time waiting for and trying to create openings for which you strike. The more experienced you are the more of these openings you are going to be able to create, also more experience allows you to react faster and thus take advantage of more msitakes that your opponent may make thus allowing for more "attacks" during the same period of time.

JFeenstra
03-12-2008, 09:49 AM
the only problem with that enhancement line is that rangers would still have to use a feat to benefit from it, as they don't get point blank shot as a class feat

GlassCannon
03-12-2008, 10:16 AM
Multi-shot.
Improved Crit
Good bow
And often overlooked special arrows.

Your DPS will be fine.....at least for those few seconds of multi-shot.

Will you out DPS the raging Brb? Probably not, but it is possible. And you might stay alive longer....especially if you face a lot of casters.

Yeah, I wish ranged was faster too......but it's not as broken as most people think.

People really overlook special arrows....mostly because it is difficult to acquire them in numbers and they take up a lot of inventory space.........but they are great if you can get em. All my toons pass them to my Archer.

Our DPS will be just less than a barbarian half our level. That is NOT fine.

The raging Bbn does 2x our damage, the speed boosted hasted Fighter does 2.3x our damage(yes, a speed spec'd 2h fighter deals more damage than a raged Bbn, tested in-game), and the Sorc designed for damaeg is busily putting everyone to shame.

The Ranged combatant needs a boost to DPS in later game. As it is, they are semi-balanced for early game, then lose any sense of balance at level 5. After that, it's slowly downhill, and only uber gear and wicked powerful bows keep the Ranged combatant anywhere near feasible combat functionality. I'd like to see a Ranger-only granted feat of Ranged Critical Multiplier(just like a Weaponmaster's, but for Ranged Only), and Greater Critical: Ranged(option at lvl 15).

GlassCannon
03-12-2008, 10:17 AM
This would be an awesome enhancement line to impliment. It has obvious significant benefits to the ranger who decides to stay pure class all the way while still letting some multiclass rangers increase the usefulness of their MS. Very nice benefit for moderate/high investment. I can think of any reason a ranged ranger wouldnt pick up at least a couple levels of this for good benefit without turning them into a "need" enhancement line.

AP progression is too costly.

1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 would be more balanced, not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

GlassCannon
03-12-2008, 10:20 AM
I have deleted a Ranger built in Module 1, and have:
Drow Ranger 14(going to work on her soon)
Halfling Bbn1/Ranger 15(capped)
Warforged Tempest Ranger(uses bows too)7.

I kind of maybe possibly know what I am talking about.

Ranged DPS needs to be increased after level 5 moderately, and after level 11 dramatically. Manyshot is a Ranger's "NUKE" button at the moment, and it balances the Ranger to an Average DPS. Without it they are subpar. One of my Rangers uses Repeaters... if it weren't for the power of the enchantments on those, she would be ridiculously underpowered even now.

Angelus_dead
03-12-2008, 10:59 AM
Please could people stop asking for ways to increase rate of fire.

That's just NOT the way to increase ranged damage. The rate at which a DDO ranger attacks with his bow already strains credulity. Even without manyshot, it's over three times as fast as any human archer has shot targets already.

Increased fire rate will be hard to animate without looking goofy, and it will also eat through your ammunition stacks like you had a hole in your quiver.

The correct approach to increasing ranged DPS is not increased rate of fire- it is more damage per shot.

Yaga_Nub
03-12-2008, 11:11 AM
Please could people stop asking for ways to increase rate of fire.

That's just NOT the way to increase ranged damage. The rate at which a DDO ranger attacks with his bow already strains credulity. Even without manyshot, it's over three times as fast as any human archer has shot targets already.

Increased fire rate will be hard to animate without looking goofy, and it will also eat through your ammunition stacks like you had a hole in your quiver.

The correct approach to increasing ranged DPS is not increased rate of fire- it is more damage per shot.

You're really pressing here.

Mad_Bombardier
03-12-2008, 11:12 AM
Manyshot as a stance would dramatically increase rate of fire. Heck, anything is better than the 20second with 2 minute cooldown. You use the same animation as now, but get more arrows; -4 to-hit with 2 arrows, -6 with 3 arrows, -8 with 4 arrows (only when standing still of course).

4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-3), 4 arrows (+2), 4 arrows (+2). But, that's too fast. Even with the attack penalties, that would almost tripling bow RoF compared to clicky Manyshot (270% increase in RoF).

Perhaps if they scaled # of arrows with BAB (but no attack penalties). Something like:

1 arrow (+0), 1 arrow (+0), 2 arrows (+5), 3 arrows (+10), 4 arrows (+10). That'd be exactly 150% increase in RoF compared to clicky Manyshot, and would be on par with melee RoA.

Coldin
03-12-2008, 11:40 AM
I'd actually be much happier that if instead of increasing the rate of fire of the bows, feats like Rapid Shot and Multishot were made into stances that allowed shooting more arrows simultaneously at a penalty.

Turial
03-12-2008, 11:44 AM
The rate at which a DDO ranger attacks with his bow already strains credulity. Even without manyshot, it's over three times as fast as any human archer has shot targets already.


Its the same with melee attacks. Very few people can swing weapons as fast as we do here in ddo without loosing all semblence of defensive stance and accuracy in their attacks. Remember this is a fantasy based game where people are capable of things normal humanoid creatures could not possibly do.

In Dnd the speed of all attack forms is based on the number of attacks per round (based on BAB), the casting times of spells, or the extra reload times for complicated weapons (crossbows).

High str or dex allows for melee types to attack fast. High dex allows for ranged users to fire at a much faster rate.

That being said if the issues with ranged combat are really related to server stress then turbine should use the tech to make single attacks count as multiple by simply saying 1 arrow counts for 2 (different attack and damage rolls) except during manyshot volleys (if the manyshot volley would make ranged obviously superior to melee).

Turial
03-12-2008, 11:46 AM
Manyshot as a stance would dramatically increase rate of fire. Heck, anything is better than the 20second with 2 minute cooldown. You use the same animation as now, but get more arrows; -4 to-hit with 2 arrows, -6 with 3 arrows, -8 with 4 arrows (only when standing still of course).

4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-3), 4 arrows (+2), 4 arrows (+2). But, that's too fast. Even with the attack penalties, that would almost tripling bow RoF compared to clicky Manyshot (270% increase in RoF).

Perhaps if they scaled # of arrows with BAB (but no attack penalties). Something like:

1 arrow (+0), 1 arrow (+0), 2 arrows (+5), 3 arrows (+10), 4 arrows (+10). That'd be exactly 150% increase in RoF compared to clicky Manyshot, and would be on par with melee RoA.

Now that would be an interesting way to do it.

Angelus_dead
03-12-2008, 12:30 PM
Its the same with melee attacks. Very few people can swing weapons as fast as we do here in ddo without loosing all semblence of defensive stance and accuracy in their attacks.
That is completely false. The only reason real people can't swing as rapidly as in DDO is because they don't have enough opponents to keep going so long.

A real person hitting a punching bag with a sword attacks faster than a DDO barb. A real archer shooting at a bull's eye is much slower than a DDO ranger.

llevenbaxx
03-12-2008, 12:41 PM
That is completely false. The only reason real people can't swing as rapidly as in DDO is because they don't have enough opponents to keep going so long.

A real person hitting a punching bag with a sword attacks faster than a DDO barb. A real archer shooting at a bull's eye is much slower than a DDO ranger.

Your veiw of what melee combat is, is incredibly off or at the very least missing alot.

In melee youre worried about things like, you know, getting hit...

ArkoHighStar
03-12-2008, 12:44 PM
Manyshot as a stance would dramatically increase rate of fire. Heck, anything is better than the 20second with 2 minute cooldown. You use the same animation as now, but get more arrows; -4 to-hit with 2 arrows, -6 with 3 arrows, -8 with 4 arrows (only when standing still of course).

4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-3), 4 arrows (+2), 4 arrows (+2). But, that's too fast. Even with the attack penalties, that would almost tripling bow RoF compared to clicky Manyshot (270% increase in RoF).

Perhaps if they scaled # of arrows with BAB (but no attack penalties). Something like:

1 arrow (+0), 1 arrow (+0), 2 arrows (+5), 3 arrows (+10), 4 arrows (+10). That'd be exactly 150% increase in RoF compared to clicky Manyshot, and would be on par with melee RoA.

Codog spoke of this a few months ago, and indicated originally manyshot made it into the game at the last minute as a timed stance because they felt that it would fill the screen with too many projectiles and woudl casue performance issues as a permanent stance. Those issues he felt had been resolved with the engine upgrade, so technically the feat could be made a toggleable stance. However they woudl not implement it as such until they could also implement the - to hit associated with it being permanent. They wanted to be able to take it and things like power attack and combat expertise and make them selectable. So you could pick 2 arrows at -2 to hit, or 3 arrows at -3 to hit etc. I am not sure if the post is still out there but I will see if I can find it. It was simply a matter of priorities and whether they could implement it in a fashion they felt worked.

edit here it is explained much better than I could

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1428958&postcount=576

Mercules
03-12-2008, 03:50 PM
Well actually a full attack action is going to give you multiple attacks during that six second period providing your BAB is of sufficient level to provide additional attacks. I believe part of that round is still intended as the jockeying for position and waiting for openings thet does happen during real combat.

Having fenced for a couple of years two opponents do not just stand there and whack away at one another as fast as they can, you spend a lot of that time waiting for and trying to create openings for which you strike. The more experienced you are the more of these openings you are going to be able to create, also more experience allows you to react faster and thus take advantage of more msitakes that your opponent may make thus allowing for more "attacks" during the same period of time.

Which is exactly what I was stating.

Mad_Bombardier
03-12-2008, 04:30 PM
Thanks, Arko. That's the post I was thinking about. :) My suggestion above was more of a compromise, assuming that the tech to scale combat feats was not available. I see now that it is available, but not developed.

I still think that with Manyshot on every arrow, 4 arrows per shot is too much. It's 2.7x current Manyshot RoF; and that is a HUGE increase. My suggestion = 1.5x current Manyshot RoF is much more plausible to me to buff bow combat without overpowering it.

JFeenstra
03-12-2008, 04:53 PM
changing manyshot to +8 BAB = 2 arrows, +16 BAB = 3 arrows and making it a stance would be reasonable without overpowering it

salmag
03-12-2008, 05:28 PM
Codog spoke of this a few months ago, and indicated originally manyshot made it into the game at the last minute as a timed stance because they felt that it would fill the screen with too many projectiles and woudl casue performance issues as a permanent stance. Those issues he felt had been resolved with the engine upgrade, so technically the feat could be made a toggleable stance. However they woudl not implement it as such until they could also implement the - to hit associated with it being permanent. They wanted to be able to take it and things like power attack and combat expertise and make them selectable. So you could pick 2 arrows at -2 to hit, or 3 arrows at -3 to hit etc. I am not sure if the post is still out there but I will see if I can find it. It was simply a matter of priorities and whether they could implement it in a fashion they felt worked.

edit here it is explained much better than I could

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1428958&postcount=576


Arko, thank you for the link.

Emili
03-12-2008, 05:39 PM
changing manyshot to +8 BAB = 2 arrows, +16 BAB = 3 arrows and making it a stance would be reasonable without overpowering it


... or as I see it, I think the base rate of fire needs increase, not to equal a sword and board as swinging a weapon should be quicker then reaching in a quiver, notching an arrow, and drawback (could never figure out why they call it drawback as you actually push forward but beside the point), aim and realease. That is why it should remain slower than sword swing but maybe be sped up to a reasonable point... manyshot as a stance may keep it's number of arrows should probably be slowed down slightly then what it is now and adhere to the - to hit per arrow penalties... logically due to grabbing the extra arrows and notching them and managing to keep them separated on the drawback with the - on the additional reflecting the aim of the one and not perfectly aiming the rest.

Just my thoughts on the subject speaking from a logical view.

MeNorel
03-12-2008, 06:04 PM
I have taken my ranger mostly TWF due to a perception that I have observed.

When I mostly range and there is a good grouping whern IPS and MS will if not mow down the mob will bring the confrontation to a quick end due to the amount of damage dealt out. This bolsters the melee into thinking, ohhh my god I'm having a good day, and rush off to the next mob thinking the same smack down is about to occur, but sadly the DPS from my bow still has 1.5 minutes left to recharge and there for not very effective in assisting in taking down the mob that quickly. This puts strain in the healer, and has lead to party wipes from some of the experiences I have had.

Its a bit better with 4 shot since when MS is activated it looks like a small wall of arrows going down the tunnel instead of just a single shot so damage dealt is a bit more visible. But most parties don't take into account that the archer just leveled the playing field with a whole can of WA with a strong elemental burst or WP bow that has really weakened a mob encounter.

Delzon
03-13-2008, 12:24 AM
Manyshot as a stance would dramatically increase rate of fire. Heck, anything is better than the 20second with 2 minute cooldown. You use the same animation as now, but get more arrows; -4 to-hit with 2 arrows, -6 with 3 arrows, -8 with 4 arrows (only when standing still of course).

4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-8), 4 arrows (-3), 4 arrows (+2), 4 arrows (+2). But, that's too fast. Even with the attack penalties, that would almost tripling bow RoF compared to clicky Manyshot (270% increase in RoF).

Perhaps if they scaled # of arrows with BAB (but no attack penalties). Something like:

1 arrow (+0), 1 arrow (+0), 2 arrows (+5), 3 arrows (+10), 4 arrows (+10). That'd be exactly 150% increase in RoF compared to clicky Manyshot, and would be on par with melee RoA.

I like this and need to think about it more, but some random late night thoughts. I don't think it should drop any lower then power attack does, since that is somewhat the same as melee is using.

Also I am wondering, should your to hit really fall that much? Yes you are shooting faster and may miss, but you are also focused on your target. I think there should be a way to sacrifice your AC to improve or mittigate the loss to hit. After all you may have tunnel vision focused on your target, but then can you become flat footed? Would this be a way to increase the crit range but with a loss to ac or even evasion while in this stance?

What if you wanted to just do a lot of damage and send arrows down range as hard as you can, so you sacrifice aim to crank back that bow and let it rip.

Could this be two different stances? In some ways it is like the Hunter in LOTR Online with different stances depending on what you want to do, but I don't like the clicky timers like in LOTRO or how MS is right now. Maybe we just need an archer prestige class to seperate archery from ranger, because it is really hard to be proud of all the work you have done with a ranged ranger when a tempus ranger with all the melee feats and melee enhancements can pick up a bow and do almost if not as well a job with a bow as you can. It just leaves you asking why did I bother?

Mad_Bombardier
03-13-2008, 10:37 AM
I like this and need to think about it more, but some random late night thoughts. I don't think it should drop any lower then power attack does, since that is somewhat the same as melee is using.

Also I am wondering, should your to hit really fall that much? Yes you are shooting faster and may miss, but you are also focused on your target. I think there should be a way to sacrifice your AC to improve or mittigate the loss to hit. After all you may have tunnel vision focused on your target, but then can you become flat footed? Would this be a way to increase the crit range but with a loss to ac or even evasion while in this stance? The penalties for extra arrows is directly from PnP, Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot).

I'm torn between making Manyshot a stance and alternative solutions. 4 arrows per shot, with any penalty is ridiculously fast. But, I want to stay as true to D&D as possible. As Turial metioned in another thread, maybe enhancements to extend the 20second Manyshot and shorten the 120 second cooldown are the solution.