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~Jules921
03-06-2008, 12:33 AM
I've heard that some damage dealing spells will cause less aggression than others. Would someone please list which spells cause less aggression. I'm posting this in the sorc list as well.

Thanks in advance.
Jules

Ghoste
03-06-2008, 01:05 AM
As far as I know, the ones that deal less damage draw less agro than those that deal more damage.

First I've ever heard that rumor myself, and have never seen anything that I can thing of to confirm that.

Mad_Bombardier
03-06-2008, 11:04 AM
Damage spells cause aggro based on damage dealt. There should not be any difference between them.

Non-damage spells may or may not cause aggro. For example, Solid Fog causes aggro. Mobs know that something is amiss and come looking for you. Charm Monster does not cause aggro (provided you are not seen) on a monster save. On a failed save, there is no aggro because the charmed bad guy is fighting for you (ie., his buddies won't come looking for you once the charmed guy dies).

Merkinsal
03-06-2008, 01:08 PM
I don't remember if this technique works with damage spells.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1568361&postcount=17

Mad_Bombardier
03-06-2008, 01:11 PM
Right. Feeblemind is another non-damage spell that does not cause aggro on monster save. Disbelieving a PK (first Will save) also draws no aggro. Making the 2nd Fort save causes minor damage and draws aggro.

Other than Subtle Spellcasting enhancement, I don't think there's any way to reduce aggro from damage spells.

~Jules921
03-06-2008, 01:26 PM
Damage spells cause aggro based on damage dealt. There should not be any difference between them.

Non-damage spells may or may not cause aggro. For example, Solid Fog causes aggro. Mobs know that something is amiss and come looking for you. Charm Monster does not cause aggro (provided you are not seen) on a monster save. On a failed save, there is no aggro because the charmed bad guy is fighting for you (ie., his buddies won't come looking for you once the charmed guy dies).

If you're not seen you don't draw aggro? See my questions stem from trying (once again) to build and run a caster. I've tried like 3 or 4 times and they never work out for me. Hoping that maybe this time it will "click" for me.

Jules

~Jules921
03-06-2008, 01:28 PM
Right. Feeblemind is another non-damage spell that does not cause aggro on monster save. Disbelieving a PK (first Will save) also draws no aggro. Making the 2nd Fort save causes minor damage and draws aggro.

Other than Subtle Spellcasting enhancement, I don't think there's any way to reduce aggro from damage spells.

I think I meant the non damaging spells, instead of non aggro spells - so like stat diminishing spells like crushing despair won't draw aggro either then??

Jules

Naturelaughslast
03-06-2008, 01:35 PM
A good rule of thumb is most "direct damage spells" aka firewall, scorching ray, chain lightning..list goes on.. cause agro. Because in game agro usually stems from damage dealt to a target whoever causes that target the most damage generally pulls the most agro. Spells that when they fail cause no damage or very little tend to pull less agro or none and the target will more likely be pulled by the melee whacking on it as opposed to a caster. As far as what pulls the most agro the more damaging your spell the worse it will pull for example chain lightening on your acid/lightning based caster. Generally if enough damage is caused to a target before you hit them you have a better chance of not pulling. With my casters I tend to concentrate on nuking and killing other casters/clerics which may cause the party trouble and forcus less on smaller mobs which the fighters can deal with, that helps on keeping agro down, also consider investing in diplo.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-06-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm not sure what he agro formula is...but in general, higher damage means higher agro......
But there is a point where the baddie will not turn away from his chosen target no matter what ya do to him.

Some spells that do not cause damage will cause agro. Apparently there is a preference in mobs to go after casters, and if your spell actually affects the baddie in some way, he will agro on you. (some exceptions.....seems successful feeblemind does not cause agro, but does seem to put him on alert sometimes.)

The other night in the Market, I casted suggestion on a devil in a pack that had not agroed on anyone yet. And although I think my suggestion worked on him, he teleported to me with his buddies and at least one of his elite buddies agroed on me....first time I had seen this, and it might have something to do with devils and their teleport ability. They seem to have an unusual agro mechanic......a little like mummies and flesh golems.....just add in teleport.

Mad_Bombardier
03-06-2008, 01:41 PM
If you're not seen you don't draw aggro? See my questions stem from trying (once again) to build and run a caster. I've tried like 3 or 4 times and they never work out for me. Hoping that maybe this time it will "click" for me.For some spells, yes. Enlarge is great for a solo caster. Provided your graphics are high enough to draw in monsters at long range, then you can cast before they see you.

Ghoste is really the one to ask (I know he replied briefly above). Check out his Shadow Mage 101 thread for tips and tricks. :)

~Jules921
03-06-2008, 01:47 PM
For some spells, yes. Enlarge is great for a solo caster. Provided your graphics are high enough to draw in monsters at long range, then you can cast before they see you.

Ghoste is really the one to ask (I know he replied briefly above). Check out his Shadow Mage 101 thread for tips and tricks. :)

I have read the thread and watched the videos (great btw) that he created. I've got a drow wizzy and elf (28pt) sorc that I'm bringing up as stealth casters. We'll see how they both play out.

Jules

Arianrhod
03-06-2008, 02:48 PM
Could also consider the "instakill" spells like phantasmal killer and finger of death. Not sure whether they draw any aggro if the target saves, but if they work, the target is dead, and aggro doesn't matter ;)

Merkinsal
03-06-2008, 04:11 PM
I have read the thread and watched the videos (great btw) that he created. I've got a drow wizzy and elf (28pt) sorc that I'm bringing up as stealth casters. We'll see how they both play out.

Jules

I was curious what threads you were talking about so I went and looked it up. I'm pretty sure this wasn't covered in my DDO 101 class I took with the trial offer :P

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1579448&postcount=1

I have no words for this. Better than sex.

Mad_Bombardier
03-06-2008, 06:28 PM
I have no words for this. Better than sex.I wouldn't go that far, but certainly better than PUGging a night of DDO. ;)

MrWizard
03-06-2008, 07:58 PM
I have found that any damage spells of any kind, and any area effect spells that physically affect a monster (like solid fog) cause instant and pure aggro no matter the damage. Enough for the mob to run past everything and attack me.

Now, I agree the tactic is sound, however, If I am using enlarge from a very far instance and the mobs are already in a melee, how in the world would they know I cast it, much less where I am?

The AI assumes too much methinks.

Merkinsal
03-07-2008, 11:36 AM
I have found that any damage spells of any kind, and any area effect spells that physically affect a monster (like solid fog) cause instant and pure aggro no matter the damage. Enough for the mob to run past everything and attack me.

Now, I agree the tactic is sound, however, If I am using enlarge from a very far instance and the mobs are already in a melee, how in the world would they know I cast it, much less where I am?

The AI assumes too much methinks.

So, distance by itself does not guarantee no agro? By the way, I was in VON 3 down at the bottom of the one room with all the mushrooms and the 3? beholders. He was looking 90 degrees away from me at the ranged archers. I stepped out and cast disintegrate and stepped back behind the mushroom before it hit. When i peeked back out after it landed, he was looking at me but didn't do anything and went back to looking at the archers. I didn't have enlarge so I wasnt too far away really. I took him down that way. Can anybody tell me just exactly how that worked because I have no clue, just a bunch of maybes.

Qumil
03-10-2008, 02:23 PM
Any persistent ae spell (CK SF etc) will draw agro if the mob isn't already agro on something, regardless of how far you are when it hits them.

If you lay out some CK and a fighter runs up to 20 mobs, they chase him and he never hits or uses intimidate, chances are the mobs will head for you once they enter the ck. Basically this change was put in a while back due to the prevalence of people to use CK from a distance to kill mobs with no risk. The end result was that ANY persistent ae spell will cause some agro, not necessarily a great deal of agro but it is there to eliminate many no risk tactics.

Single target spells that cause no damage will generally not draw agro as long as you’re not seen.

You can cast enervation at a distance and kill something with no agro even though it may take multiple casts to kill the mob.

As for the beholder, they act erratically; I have been zapped by them just for running near while they were being beat down by other people. They have lots of eye stalks and they seem to just shoot out ray spells all over the place.

MrCow
03-10-2008, 02:29 PM
I stepped out and cast disintegrate and stepped back behind the mushroom before it hit. When i peeked back out after it landed, he was looking at me but didn't do anything and went back to looking at the archers.

The beholder couldn't find a path to attack you for one reason or another, or you somehow bugged it out. You might have also found an "AI dead zone" where standing in it would cause it to lose interest in you. A couple of quests have quite a few of these (the 7th part of catacombs has numerous ones by the stairs and in the doors that shouldn't be openable).