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View Full Version : To the Developers, State of the Cleric Address.



Cowdenicus
03-03-2008, 07:57 AM
Hello Developers,

The following is my opinion and my opinion only, as such take it with a grain of salt.

Mod 6 has been pretty nice so far. That being said a clerics resources are spread pretty thin throughout a quest. Now both of my main clerics are capped, so I can still recall for mana and such, but the quests are not balanced for that. I honestly prefer not to do that and try not to as much as possible, but then that means I will generally be stuck burning heal scrolls and such.

The one thing I have found to be severely lacking are Devotion items. I mean the best devotion item I have seen to date is Superior Devotion 6. The best Devotion item one can craft (known to date) is Superior Devotion 6, yet even as far back as Mod 4 I have been carrying around a superior potency 6 item, which means essentially my ability to heal (power wise) has gone up exactly 0%. Oh sure, level 15 brings in 10 more points from the heal spell when I cast it and Cure mass critical, but without a way to power up Cure Mass Critical, it is less effective than Cure mass light or moderate. Superior devotion 7 and 8 items should be populating the loot lists and has not. This is a huge issue for clerics, unless of course the lack of these items means you want others to become alot more self sufficient.

Mod 6 also brought alot of changes to consumables being able to be bought for arcanes, yet nothing new for clerics. No new wands, no new scrolls, nothing. My suggestion is as far as scrolls go, allow at least cure mass criticals to be sold. If you wanted to be real nice you could put some new 10th level wands for sale like Protection from Energy 10's and the like.

No new enhancement lines.... Clerics still do not have improved metamagics available, they have no new enhancements since the faith lines which when compared to the other classes "PrC" types of lines, well lets just say they are significantly underpowered. Can clerics get something new? Please.

Which brings me to the last issue as I see them. Domains. Still not in. The one thing that balances clerics to other classes (as a pure class) in D&D are domains. While some of them are quite strong I do not see a reason for Clerics to have had no domains for 2 years. Melee have been made stronger in this version of the game through attack bonuses going up and not down, casters have their improved metamagics and bonuses to types of damage through enhancements, clerics can heal for a little more at the cost of their domains. Does not seem very balanced to me......

Any ways, I understand that the odds of this getting a response are not great but I just wanted to let the Developers know how I feel. Thanks for reading even if you do not respond.

Respectfully,

Dozen_Black_Roses
03-03-2008, 07:59 AM
/signed

Cowdenicus
03-03-2008, 08:17 AM
Why should a cleric not be able to get a superior devotion 7 item? That would be like saying, a melee shouldnt be able to get a weapon with a suffix and a prefix..... it makes no sense.

philo
03-03-2008, 08:29 AM
Arcanes are basically in the same boat van. Lack of higher lvl +spell dmg items makes new spells do less damage then older spells with items. But that is to be expected imo. That is how its always been.

There were no +spell dmg items that effected lvl 6 spells in mod 3 when lvl 6 spells were released. There were lvl 7 +spell dmg items in mod 4 when lvl 7 spells were released (but superiors only dropped during +1 loot weekend and were rr)...and greater 7's only dropped out of raid chests on elite during mod 4 from what I saw.

Superior 7's should theoretically drop out of the shroud on elite. Once everyone is running shroud as easily as reaver Im sure we will start seeing more superior 7's.

I think your issue is probably more about the resources clerics have to spend when running the shroud with sub-optimum groups. They wanted to make melee more necessary for the raid. They definitely did that. The side effect of longer fights, where the mobs have more hitpoints so the non-casters who dont have a limited mana pool are more useful, is that clerics also have to use more resources during the longer encounter.

Shrazkil
03-03-2008, 08:34 AM
Why should a cleric not be able to get a superior devotion 7 item? That would be like saying, a melee shouldnt be able to get a weapon with a suffix and a prefix..... it makes no sense.

[eaten by cube]

Aside from that, solid complaints, but do remember , most shrines are re-usable now, so from the developers standpoint, that negates some of your main complaint points.

totmacher
03-03-2008, 08:46 AM
The main problem I think Cowdenicus is trying to address is the increasing requirement for clerics to go outside sp boundaries into their pocket on an increasingly frequent basis. The Shroud is NOT completable, even on the lowest difficulty, without scrolls of Heal or the like. And although this is the cheapest alternative and most efficient because of the nature of self-healing in this game (1 heal scroll is about 1 1/2 csw pot), it usually falls on clerics to pick up this slack. The game at this point has demanded it.

Cowdenicus
03-03-2008, 08:55 AM
also note, devotion is not the same as potency, it is akin to combustion. I pulled many Superior combustion 7 items out of gianthold..... Never seen a superior devotion 7 item though.

Zenako
03-03-2008, 08:56 AM
The main problem I think Cowdenicus is trying to address is the increasing requirement for clerics to go outside sp boundaries into their pocket on an increasingly frequent basis. The Shroud is NOT completable, even on the lowest difficulty, without scrolls of Heal or the like. And although this is the cheapest alternative and most efficient because of the nature of self-healing in this game (1 heal scroll is about 1 1/2 csw pot), it usually falls on clerics to pick up this slack. The game at this point has demanded it.

Ummm, HEAL scroll heals 110 points minumum (bumps possible due to enhancements on both ends)

CSW Pots heal 3d8+3 or about 20-25 points if you are rolling well. So it takes 4+ pots at least to get the same healing as in one HEAL scroll. Just need to fix that for ya.

Zenako
03-03-2008, 09:01 AM
also note, devotion is not the same as potency, it is akin to combustion. I pulled many Superior combustion 7 items out of gianthold..... Never seen a superior devotion 7 item though.

Completely agree on that, I have been handing out Superior Combustion 7 Sceptres to every arcane I know I have pulled so many of those. I do have a Superior Pot 6 dagger with my cleric and that works pretty well for most things.

Cow, which 7 and 8th level spells would you really get much of a benefit out of having them Superiorized. Destruction? Trivial damage or death. Superior does not make much of a difference. Firestorm? bleeh...showy. I mean some of the more useful ones are the mass buffs like death ward, and that gets no boost from Superior...

honkuimushi
03-03-2008, 09:08 AM
Anything that reduces the out of pocket costs for clerics is a good thing to my way of thinking. While it is posible to run without a cleric a fair portion of the time, having a halfway competant cleric strengthens the party enormously-- not just healing, but buffs, croud control and attack spells. Running without a cleric gets expensive fast. But clerics have always been reliant on consumable for healing. First it was wands, now it's scrolls as well. I've always felt that these consumables should be a backup and the vast majority of healing should come from SP. But with the current attack bonuses for mobs, it's hard to mitigate damage. Adding enhancements and items to make SP usage more efficient is a good first step. But I think we're going to have to talk about AC vs. Attack Bonus pretty soon if we want to keep costs for clerics under control.

Cowdenicus
03-03-2008, 09:08 AM
Completely agree on that, I have been handing out Superior Combustion 7 Sceptres to every arcane I know I have pulled so many of those. I do have a Superior Pot 6 dagger with my cleric and that works pretty well for most things.

Cow, which 7 and 8th level spells would you really get much of a benefit out of having them Superiorized. Destruction? Trivial damage or death. Superior does not make much of a difference. Firestorm? bleeh...showy. I mean some of the more useful ones are the mass buffs like death ward, and that gets no boost from Superior...

I have 3 superior potency 6 items.... for nukes this is all i need.

Superior devotion 7 and 8 on the other hand would power up mass cure serious and critical respectively (and only those 2 spells) hence my mass healing would be 50% more effective. (for those 2 spells)

bobbryan2
03-03-2008, 09:10 AM
Greater Potency VII items drop common enough... it's the Greater Potency VIII drought that bugs me.

philo
03-03-2008, 09:15 AM
also note, devotion is not the same as potency, it is akin to combustion. I pulled many Superior combustion 7 items out of gianthold..... Never seen a superior devotion 7 item though.

Thats a good point. I was referring to potency in my examples above.

Using mod 3 as an example again, the only devotion 6 item that was available back then was the queen helm (improved 6). There were definitely devotion 5 items in mod 3 when we got lvl 6 spells. There should be devotion 7 items now that we have lvl 8 spells.

Cowdenicus
03-03-2008, 09:22 AM
Thats a good point. I was referring to potency in my examples above.

Using mod 3 as an example again, the only devotion 6 item that was available back then was the queen helm (improved 6). There were definitely devotion 5 items in mod 3 when we got lvl 6 spells. There should be devotion 7 items now that we have lvl 8 spells.

Not absolutely correct... this is an item I have had for QUITE a while.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/aecowdeniii/SuperiorDev6.jpg

As you will note, the ML on this item is 10, hence Superior Devotion 7 should be ML 12, Superior Devotion 8 should be ML 14, and Superior Devotion 9 should be ML 16.

While farming the shroud on elite I should have a chance at pulling a superior devotion 9 item, instead I have yet to even hear of a Superior devotion 7 item, something is amiss.

Angelus_dead
03-03-2008, 09:29 AM
As you will note, the ML on this item is 10, hence Superior Devotion 7 should be ML 12, Superior Devotion 8 should be ML 14, and Superior Devotion 9 should be ML 16.
That is a false statement. There is no reason for Super Dev 9 to be available at level 16, or even at level 18.

Simply saying "I want it, I want it NOW" is not actually justification to give you anything.

bobbryan2
03-03-2008, 09:31 AM
That is a false statement. There is no reason for Super Dev 9 to be available at level 16, or even at level 18.

Except that there's every reason for it to be available at level 18 because we can cast lvl 9 spells at level 18. And level 9 healing spells shouldn't be inferior to level 8 healing spells.... ever.

Angelus_dead
03-03-2008, 09:36 AM
And level 9 healing spells shouldn't be inferior to level 8 healing spells.... ever.
The spells are not inferior... your gear is inferior. Cast the spells without items, and you'll see which is better.

There is ALWAYS a reason for a lower-level character to have inferior gear to someone higher level.

bobbryan2
03-03-2008, 09:39 AM
The spells are not inferior... your gear is inferior. Cast the spells without items, and you'll see which is better.

There is ALWAYS a reason for a lower-level character to have inferior gear to someone higher level.

Again... having gear that is necessary for activating new abilities is bad design. Having a superior potency item of some sort has become the baseline and things are balanced around that baseline. This is even more evident when the devs add Superior Potency VIII items to quests to let poorer characters compete with people that have all those items already.

The quests are based around having certain items, and the devs are even giving those items to people that don't have them.

In that light... with a superior potency VI item... Heal mass Serior is worse than Heal Mass Moderate.

Laith
03-03-2008, 09:42 AM
As you will note, the ML on this item is 10, hence Superior Devotion 7 should be ML 12, Superior Devotion 8 should be ML 14, and Superior Devotion 9 should be ML 16.

While farming the shroud on elite I should have a chance at pulling a superior devotion 9 item, instead I have yet to even hear of a Superior devotion 7 item, something is amiss.actually, the ML on caster items is a bit... wonky.

after all, on a standard +5 weapon, the ML is 8.
Your scepter is a +8 weapon, with ML 10. '
I'd guess that it's ignoring the +2 enhancement bonus for ML purposes, and being counted as a +6 weapon due to the Superior Devotion VI alone, but i haven't really looked into that theory.

I do believe I've seen +14 scepters drop at ML14... might have been ML16, but that's not important: they break the standard.

We really should be seeing Superior Devotion VII though...

Just like i never understood why Healing Lore is always restricted to raid items, I'm not sure why Devotion is being left out this time.

Vinos
03-03-2008, 09:50 AM
The spells are not inferior... your gear is inferior. Cast the spells without items, and you'll see which is better.

There is ALWAYS a reason for a lower-level character to have inferior gear to someone higher level.

You know reading your last few posts have reminded me about something my mother used to say. "Better to say nothing and have people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". You are not getting the point of this thread and while your comments are funny they don't really pertain to the discussion.

Cowdenicus
03-03-2008, 09:57 AM
actually, the ML on caster items is a bit... wonky.

after all, on a standard +5 weapon, the ML is 8.
Your scepter is a +8 weapon, with ML 10. '
I'd guess that it's ignoring the +2 enhancement bonus for ML purposes, and being counted as a +6 weapon due to the Superior Devotion VI alone, but i haven't really looked into that theory.

I do believe I've seen +14 scepters drop at ML14... might have been ML16, but that's not important: they break the standard.

We really should be seeing Superior Devotion VII though...

Just like i never understood why Healing Lore is always restricted to raid items, I'm not sure why Devotion is being left out this time.

I was going to mention the healing lore issue also...... doh.

Impaqt
03-03-2008, 10:05 AM
That is a false statement. There is no reason for Super Dev 9 to be available at level 16, or even at level 18.

Simply saying "I want it, I want it NOW" is not actually justification to give you anything.

Theres Absoluteluy NOTHING False about that statement. Its based on the Existing progression of single spell school Enhancement items established inthe game already.

"Its not there, so it shouldnt be" is a valid argument? Are you kidding me?

Mad_Bombardier
03-03-2008, 11:23 AM
I completely agree with Cowdenicus. Superior Combustion VII, ml:14 (the only damage spell boostable by scepters) has been available since one of the 4.x updates last spring/summer. There is NO reason why Devotion VII should not also be in the loot tables. They just stop at spell level VI. :confused: And there are no Devotion VII items in named loot either that would be ousted by random loot.

We do have Greater Potency VII, ml:14. But, no individual spell type boosts above L7. :( We should be seeing Greater Potency IIX, Superior Potency VII, Superior Glaciation IIX, and Superior Devotion VII & IIX.

tihocan
03-03-2008, 12:01 PM
Just wanted to bump for some cleric love. Mod.6 was really disappointing for clerics :(

TechNoFear
03-03-2008, 09:43 PM
Has anyone ever found a healing lore item as a random drop?

Devotion items are much rarer than Potency items.

Healing law items are non existant, except as static loot. Caster lore items are however very, common.

GlassCannon
03-04-2008, 12:04 AM
also note, devotion is not the same as potency, it is akin to combustion. I pulled many Superior combustion 7 items out of gianthold..... Never seen a superior devotion 7 item though.

In other words the Minimum Level is 2 less than a Potency of the same bonus rating. I'm baffled that I have not yet pulled a Minimum Level 15 Race Restricted +7 stat item, or a Race Restricted Minimum Level 16 +1 Superior Potency 9 item(Why can't we see Masterwork caster items dropping? Why do they always need an Attack Bonus?)... heck the closest I get is a superior potency 7(pulled 2 days ago).

Due to the extreme amount of damage people are taking in the new content, these items NEED to be put in!

[eaten by cube]

Tin_Dragon
03-04-2008, 07:02 AM
Just wanted to bump for some cleric love. Mod.6 was really disappointing for clerics :(

I point to Holy Aura as a Prime Example of this.

as it is It adds a +4 Deflect to AC, and a +4 Resist on Saves.

Thats it. I believe it is safe to say that by the time we are 15 th level, we dont need the cleric to buff us with this, if you need the AC, mass Shield of Faith gets you taken care of there, and most of us have a +4, or even +5 resistance cloak, IF we really need it.

Now, the problem is what is MISSING from this spell :

Holy Aura
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Clr 8, Good 8
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 20 ft.
Targets: One creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

A brilliant divine radiance surrounds the subjects, protecting them from attacks, granting them resistance to spells cast by evil creatures, and causing evil creatures to become blinded when they strike the subjects. This abjuration has four effects.

First, each warded creature gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saves. Unlike protection from evil, this benefit applies against all attacks, not just against attacks by evil creatures.

Second, each warded creature gains spell resistance 25 against evil spells and spells cast by evil creatures.

Third, the abjuration blocks possession and mental influence, just as protection from evil does.

Finally, if an evil creature succeeds on a melee attack against a warded creature, the offending attacker is blinded (Fortitude save negates, as blindness/deafness, but against holy aura’s save DC).



Now THAT would make the spell worth carrying.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 07:22 AM
+1 Superior Potency 9 item(Why can't we see Masterwork caster items dropping? Why do they always need an Attack Bonus?)

Since mod 4, the enhancement bonus on a caster item is not actually included in the ML calculations.

The standard array of stuff is put on there and then an enhancement bonus is tacked on at the end, based on the value of the item.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 07:24 AM
I point to Holy Aura as a Prime Example of this.

as it is It adds a +4 Deflect to AC, and a +4 Resist on Saves.

Thats it. I believe it is safe to say that by the time we are 15 th level, we dont need the cleric to buff us with this, if you need the AC, mass Shield of Faith gets you taken care of there, and most of us have a +4, or even +5 resistance cloak, IF we really need it.

Rumor has it that it's currently a stacking +4 to AC and Saves, even if you already have a deflection and resistance bonus to those two things. (Which they should fix to not be true.)

Plus, the blind-guard thing is working.

But the spell should be an AoE party effect, not a self-only, single target spell.

winsom
03-04-2008, 07:43 AM
I think the Heal Scroll is causing a large problem for game balance. Its inclusion on vendors would seem to indicate that the developers intend us to use these (and lots of them!) as a tool to solve adventure content. I think heal scrolls, and infinite vendor access to scrolls and wands in general, end up breaking the D&D concept of resource scarcity. You give our characters limited SPs and limited shrine use and then add a supply of consumables to counter-act that. Thats not very smart, at least not at the current vendor prices for wands and scrolls.

I would rather have content be designed and played via tactics that require resource management other than dozens of Heal scrolls and mana potions. At least the mana potions are expensive enough not to be a truly reliable resource. Its bad that cleric players, more than any other class, have the burden of needing 100s of 1000s of gold invested in consumables at high levels, and then they are expected to burn through that at an alarming rate.

Please fix.

BlueLightBandit
03-04-2008, 08:03 AM
I think the Heal Scroll is causing a large problem for game balance. Its inclusion on vendors would seem to indicate that the developers intend us to use these (and lots of them!) as a tool to solve adventure content. I think heal scrolls, and infinite vendor access to scrolls and wands in general, end up breaking the D&D concept of resource scarcity. You give our characters limited SPs and limited shrine use and then add a supply of consumables to counter-act that. Thats not very smart, at least not at the current vendor prices for wands and scrolls.

I would rather have content be designed and played via tactics that require resource management other than dozens of Heal scrolls and mana potions. At least the mana potions are expensive enough not to be a truly reliable resource. Its bad that cleric players, more than any other class, have the burden of needing 100s of 1000s of gold invested in consumables at high levels, and then they are expected to burn through that at an alarming rate.

Please fix.

Funny enough, my cleric has all of the possible wand/scroll enhancements to improve the base "damage" from these, but has been so lazy lately and hasn't picked up any wands for a couple of weeks lately. Aside from the occastion 160 pt heals from scrolls, he very rarely uses anything other than his mana in the Vale quests. Shroud runs are a different story, and I'm thinking that clerics should not get a bump based on raids... but with nearly 15k spell points and the right enhancements my cleric does just fine.

Considering the 16th level cleric should be fine without "accessories" (like wands, scrolls, enhancement items) in a 16th level quest, no changes need to be made to the class itself.

The drop rate of items (or lack thereof) is a problem that they are aware of. Hopefully it will be fixed soon, although I don't foresee a patch or a mod anytime in the next few months.

And as it's been said before... the Twelve is an arcane group. They've introduced a large number of arcane items that weren't available in the quantities they were before. The same was true of the Silver Flame of the prior mod, as they made higher level cure pots available en masse. Just because we didn't see cure critical wands made available doesn't mean they haven't added something for the fleshies. Besides, I've also noticed a higher number of self-reliant characters at the higher levels, so making higher level pots available actually helps the cleric, as if they were wands then the cleric would be expected to purchase them before every quest. The pots are self-only and bound IIRC, so they actually make it *gasp* easier on the cleric.

Besides, in no way shape sort or form should the cleric be responsible for 100% of the healing in a party. Rangers, bards, paladins, now sorcerers and rogues with UMD, can all use cure serious wands freely... not to mention the concept that cure serious pots are available in every house now. By NOT increasing the benefits to clerics, they may have actually made it easier on them.

Angelus_dead
03-04-2008, 08:07 AM
I point to Holy Aura as a Prime Example of this.
Exactly.

Like I said before, the needed cleric attention is not in stronger loot, and it's certainly not in domains- it is in fixing the level 8 spell list. Sorcerers also need better level 8 spells, but not as badly.

winsom
03-04-2008, 08:14 AM
Protection from Evil and Magic Circle vs Evil are giving a stacking bonus to saving throws, even though it isn't supposed to stack. I've tested it multiple times recently, watching my combat log results. It may be stacking +2 AC as well.

Thats some really nice Cleric and Paladin love right there! Perhaps this glitch should stay in the game until clerics and paladins get some better spells and abilities.

My wizard memorizes Protection from Evil/Magic Circle, my bard/rogue carries Wands of it, and my ranger wears the permanent Protection from Evil item :D Not everyone does this like I do, so you clerics and paladins have the task of giving them the stacking bonus!

bobbryan2
03-04-2008, 08:43 AM
Exactly.

Like I said before, the needed cleric attention is not in stronger loot, and it's certainly not in domains- it is in fixing the level 8 spell list. Sorcerers also need better level 8 spells, but not as badly.

Actually, Sorcs don't need better level 8 spells... they need loot so they can use the level 8 spells we got. Clerics need new spells, their spell list was atrocious.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 08:54 AM
Relatively easy spells, from the PHB and Spell Compendium (and a few other sources), which could be added to the level 8 cleric spell list:


8th-level Cleric Spells
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Bodak's Glare: You slay a creature, which turns into a bodak 24 hours later.
Cloak of Chaos: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Chain Dispel: Dispel multiple magical effects on multiple creatures.
Create Greater Undead: Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Death Pact: Deity bring subject back from the dead automatically.
Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 80-ft.-radius.
Fierce Pride of the Beastlands: Summon celestial lions and celestial dire lions to follow your commands.
Heat Drain: Subject takes 1d6 cold damage/level, you gain equal amount hp.
Lion's Roar: Deal 1d8 points of damage/2 levels to enemies; allies get +1 on attacks and saves against fear, plus temporary HPs.
Shield of Law: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Symbol of Insanity: Triggered rune renders nearby creatures insane.
Unholy Aura: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.
Veil of Undeath: You gain undead traits.
Visions of the Future: +2 sacred bonus on saves, +2 dodge bonus to AC; discharge spell to gain bonus equal to half caster level that lasts for six seconds. [Self only.]

Yaga_Nub
03-04-2008, 09:07 AM
Relatively easy spells, from the PHB and Spell Compendium (and a few other sources), which could be added to the level 8 cleric spell list:

I don't think that it's for lack of a spell list that they aren't implementing new spells. I think it's the same reason as the monk and druid. You still have to create effects and animate those effects.

TFPAQ
03-04-2008, 09:32 AM
I'm sorry, but if you need to carry stacks of heal scrolls, the game is messed up. I don't even run my cleric in the shroud unless it is basically a guild run because of the resource costs.

My lvl 14 dwarven fighter has almost 450 hp, and I run with some barbs that are well above that. Given the quest durations and the mana/hp sinks that many chars are, I really believe that clerics need some substantial modification to their healing options.

I don't care if you want to substantially reduce cleric's costs of purchase on healing items and bind them, or dramatically increase the effectiveness of the healing (by enhancement or item). But I don't like running my cleric anymore because of the plat debt, and sadly he dates back to the open prior to release and was my favorite for soooo long.

Angelus_dead
03-04-2008, 09:37 AM
I'm sorry, but if you need to carry stacks of heal scrolls, the game is messed up. I don't even run my cleric in the shroud unless it is basically a guild run because of the resource costs.
There's no resource cost if you're good at it.

If you're not good at it, then maybe you should wait until you're level 17 to expect to beat a level 17 quest without expenses. Complaining that a higher level quest is kinda hard is groundless.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 09:53 AM
I don't think that it's for lack of a spell list that they aren't implementing new spells. I think it's the same reason as the monk and druid. You still have to create effects and animate those effects.

From that list, the following spells could be done with little or no new effects or animations. (Except for an icon to represent he spell.)

Antimagic Field
Cloak of Chaos
Chain Dispel
Create Greater Undead
Fierce Pride of the Beastlands
Heat Drain (re-color the enervation/level-loss animation)
Lion's Roar
Shield of Law
Unholy Aura
Veil of Undeath
Visions of the Future

In short, the only ones that would require major effects/animation would be Bodak's Glare and Earthquake.

arcsonist
03-04-2008, 10:06 AM
so our clerics dont have to burn through sp and resources.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 10:12 AM
so our clerics dont have to burn through sp and resources.

You know, Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm), the spell in D&D, isn't actually healing-over-time.

Angelus_dead
03-04-2008, 10:12 AM
From that list, the ones the would require ENORMOUS levels of game design or programming effort are:
Antimagic Field
Cloak of Chaos
Create Greater Undead
Fierce Pride
Unholy Aura
Veil of Undeath
Visions of the Future

In short, the only ones implementable easily are Shield of Law, Lion Roar, and prehaps Heat Drain. Also, Holy Aura should be on the list of things "to add", since the existing spell is so bad it may as well not even exist.

Missing_Minds
03-04-2008, 10:23 AM
You know, Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm), the spell in D&D, isn't actually healing-over-time.

yeah.. they really can't do that spell here. However... given the idea of regenerate..

What would you think of a spell that would remove things such as tendon slice, sharpness (ala limb chopper), bone breaking (Chothuloosewhatchamadeadeyeball), etc. Would that be worthy of the Regeneration name? Maybe add in something like the cleric enhancement of divine healing as well?

Yaga_Nub
03-04-2008, 10:27 AM
From that list, the following spells could be done with little or no new effects or animations. (Except for an icon to represent he spell.)

Antimagic Field
Cloak of Chaos
Chain Dispel
Create Greater Undead
Fierce Pride of the Beastlands
Heat Drain (re-color the enervation/level-loss animation)
Lion's Roar
Shield of Law
Unholy Aura
Veil of Undeath
Visions of the Future

In short, the only ones that would require major effects/animation would be Bodak's Glare and Earthquake.

MT, you know as well as I do that people have complained about reusing spell icons so they sure as hell will complain about spells with no animations or "borrowed" animation MORE than they would thank the devs for putting in the spells.

liamfrancais
03-04-2008, 10:34 AM
One thing I have often wondered is why does a scepter of xxx VI, VII, VIII whatever have to be a +2, +3 you get the idea if it was nothing or even masterwork ( I can hear and feel the seething now Masterwork in a Level 16 quest) that at least would bring the min level down and make them more easily used without being Race Restricted.

Ringos
03-04-2008, 10:35 AM
There's no resource cost if you're good at it.

If you're not good at it, then maybe you should wait until you're level 17 to expect to beat a level 17 quest without expenses. Complaining that a higher level quest is kinda hard is groundless.

No resource cost if you are good at it? Geez...

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 10:35 AM
In short, the only ones implementable easily are Shield of Law, Lion Roar, and prehaps Heat Drain. Also, Holy Aura should be on the list of things "to add", since the existing spell is so bad it may as well not even exist.

Cloak of Chaos and Unholy Aura are just the alternative alignment versions of Holy Aura and Shield of Law. They might not be worth adding, because the only real difference between them is who gets hit by your blind-guard and what spells you have SR against. But they shouldn't be that hard to add.

Create Greater Undead is pretty much the same as Create Undead but with different undead. (Again, might not be worth adding for the same reasons that no one uses Create Undead, but it shouldn't be that hard.)

Veil of Undeath is simply a buff that provides Heavy Fort, Deathward and perhaps a few other things. (I can't remember the specifics and I haven't got my book, but I don't remember it being anything outrageous).

Likewise, Visions of the Future is relatively simple to add if you drop the "Discharge" effect. And still, I think, a fairly useful spell. (Neither would it be the first example of having a spell in the game that worked a bit inappropriately while they worked on the right technology to implement it properly.)

Fierce Pride of the Beastlands is simply a summoning spell with a variable number of targets. I've already provided my opinion elsewhere on the artificial limitations that Summons put on the number of summons you can have at a time.

Antimagic Field may be a bit complicated, but we've already got suppression effects (Globe of Invulnerability) in the game, as well as effects that prevent spellcasting. It's really not that much more than those two things combined (assuming you continue to allow magic items to work in the field, just as they do with a beholder's anti-magic fiend).

And yes, I didn't include Holy Aura and Symbol of Death, because while neither one really functions appropriately in DDO, they are already in the game and therefore require "fixing" rather than "adding."

Heladron
03-04-2008, 10:47 AM
also note, devotion is not the same as potency, it is akin to combustion. I pulled many Superior combustion 7 items out of gianthold..... Never seen a superior devotion 7 item though.

Just curious, how does Devotion differ from Potency?

Back about 6 months ago, maybe a bit longer, my friend and I did a test. I took my cleric and started casting cure lights with no modifiers other than what I had in enhancements. I cast until I was out of spell points. After charging up I grabbed my devotion item and put that on. I cast the same spell until spell points were all gone. Next came the Potency Item of same modifier as devotion. I did the same thing as other two tests.

There was the same effect on the spell by both the Devotion and Potency item. We averaged the numbers between the two of us to make sure there were no errors. Basically you just cast the spell on the other guy and you'll both get the numbers in the combat window. I also casted a buff before each run so we could get separators for data.

Ever since i've been carrying around the highest Superior potency item I could find. I believe I have a Superior potency 6, and as a back up I have a Greater potency VII.

Unless they changed something I'm not sure what other differences there could be.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 10:51 AM
Just curious, how does Devotion differ from Potency?

Potency affects all your spells (Harm, Cometfall, Blade Barrier, etc.). Devotion affects your healing spells.

Heladron
03-04-2008, 10:58 AM
The spells are not inferior... your gear is inferior. Cast the spells without items, and you'll see which is better.

There is ALWAYS a reason for a lower-level character to have inferior gear to someone higher level.

That's the whole point of the Thread. The gear that is available right now is inferior. Peoples Highest level spells are being outperformed by lower level spells because there is a lack of gear available to boost them. The argument is that we are wondering why there are no higher level Devotion and Potency items in the game yet? Was it an oversight or were they left out on purpose. In any case the chests from the level 19 raid on elite should drop the items being asked for, but so far nobody is seeing that.

I'd be happy with superior potency VII right now, but those are pretty spendy and don't seem to drop like candy.

Heladron
03-04-2008, 11:01 AM
Potency affects all your spells (Harm, Cometfall, Blade Barrier, etc.). Devotion affects your healing spells.

That's what I thought. I just figured that would be even better than Devotion. It just means BB and all other Direct Damage spells, in addition to healing, are going to be boosted as well and free of charge so to speak since you don't need to turn on Max or Emp. I know the description isn't necessarily clear, but the testing I did seems to indicate it boosts healing as well unless it has changed, and then I'd be highly disappointed and would probably cry NERF.

Angelus_dead
03-04-2008, 11:10 AM
Cloak of Chaos and Unholy Aura are just the alternative alignment versions of Holy Aura and Shield of Law. They might not be worth adding, because the only real difference between them is who gets hit by your blind-guard and what spells you have SR against. But they shouldn't be that hard to add.
The unholy and chaos versions have significantly different effects, making them much harder to add to DDO. Holy and Law use Blind and Slow, but Chaos and Unholy use Confusion and strength damage.



Antimagic Field may be a bit complicated, but we've already got suppression effects (Globe of Invulnerability) in the game, as well as effects that prevent spellcasting. It's really not that much more than those two things combined
It is much much harder to make it work and yet not break gameplay. In fact, Antimagic Field doesn't even work right in D&D- it breaks both game balance and setting verisimilitude. It is one of the worst examples in the "oversimplified absolutism" category of game design flaws, which also includes True Seeing, Mind Blank, and Freedom of Movement.

The simplest example in DDO:
1. Recruit 3 barbarians into the group.
2. Stand around Black Abbot in a circle
3. Cast Antimagic Field
4. /dance2 while your barbs crack the Abbot apart like he was a stale pretzel
5. Profit

Strumpoo
03-04-2008, 11:25 AM
I don't play a cleric, but my main a 16 wizard. We arcanes are experiencing the same problems. Our new spells sit in mothballs since there are no items to enhance their damage to levels above lower level spells.

I too would like to see these Potency VII and VII items. As far as the elements are concerned, I so far have only seen Combustion VII items. I haven't seen any Glaciation, Magnetism, or Corrosion items?? I think something is seriously missing from casting types loot tables.

Devs can we get any word on this?

As far as heal scrolls and mana pots go. It is getting stupidly expensive to play arcanes or healers in the new (and even the old raids - like Abbott). And no, it isn't because of lack of skill of the player, like someone stated earlier. :rolleyes:

The new Shroud raid is almost hilarious in the amount of resources needed to complete it. When a caster/healer is EXPECTED to have at least 30-50 greater/major mana pots on him to just have a chance at beating the raid boss, something is broken.

When a cleric is expected to carry 200 heal scrolls, something is broken.

No class should be strapped with that much of a $$ drain just to complete a quest ON NORMAL.

We should be able to have a chance to beat these things with our characters inate powers, we shouldn't have to depend on our pocketbooks to beat anything. If that is the case something is wrong and content just becomes a "whomever can spend the most" wins.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 11:27 AM
The unholy and chaos versions have significantly different effects, making them much harder to add to DDO. Holy and Law use Blind and Slow, but Chaos and Unholy use Confusion and strength damage.

Ah, good point, I hadn't checked the descriptions lately.

Why do you think the Strength damage would be a problem though?


It is much much harder to make it work and yet not break gameplay. In fact, Antimagic Field doesn't even work right in D&D- it breaks both game balance and setting verisimilitude. It is one of the worst examples in the "oversimplified absolutism" category of game design flaws, which also includes True Seeing, Mind Blank, and Freedom of Movement.

I suppose that is a good point.

Turial
03-04-2008, 11:34 AM
As far as heal scrolls and mana pots go. It is getting stupidly expensive to play arcanes or healers in the new (and even the old raids - like Abbott). And no, it isn't because of lack of skill of the player, like someone stated earlier. :rolleyes:

The new Shroud raid is almost hilarious in the amount of resources needed to complete it. When a caster/healer is EXPECTED to have at least 30-50 greater/major mana pots on him to just have a chance at beating the raid boss, something is broken.

When a cleric is expected to carry 200 heal scrolls, something is broken.

No class should be strapped with that much of a $$ drain just to complete a quest ON NORMAL.

We should be able to have a chance to beat these things with our characters inate powers, we shouldn't have to depend on our pocketbooks to beat anything. If that is the case something is wrong and content just becomes a "whomever can spend the most" wins.

Part of it may be what is listed above and another part of it is highlighting the need for some balance between the classes. Currently groups looking to take down the new raid will only accept specific class combinations. Due to the slant in the game that make up is ideal, and almost required to even have a chance, and that type of party makeup is very resource intensive.

Having the proper spell boosting items is a definite step in the correct direction to solving it in the short term but sooner or later big changes may need to happen otherwise your average player will simply hit a resource barrier that will prevent them from accomplishing a set of content, even on normal.

TFPAQ
03-04-2008, 11:38 AM
There's no resource cost if you're good at it.

If you're not good at it, then maybe you should wait until you're level 17 to expect to beat a level 17 quest without expenses. Complaining that a higher level quest is kinda hard is groundless.

Yeah, sorry.... forgot that yours is the only opinion that matters... read the other posts and get a clue, ok?

Angelus_dead
03-04-2008, 12:10 PM
Ah, good point, I hadn't checked the descriptions lately.

Why do you think the Strength damage would be a problem though?
Because ability damage spells are a problem. They're already a problem in D&D (particularly something like Shivering Touch), and they're more of a problem in DDO since so many monsters have upscaled hitpoints without a corresponding increase to ability scores.

Angelus_dead
03-04-2008, 12:11 PM
Yeah, sorry.... forgot that yours is the only opinion that matters...
It's not a matter of opinion. When someone states a thing is impossible, but I have seen it happen, then it's a simple question of right or wrong. It only takes one counterexample to disprove a claim like that.

Zuldar
03-04-2008, 12:30 PM
You know, Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm), the spell in D&D, isn't actually healing-over-time.

That's what the vigor spell line is for.

MysticTheurge
03-04-2008, 12:38 PM
Because ability damage spells are a problem. They're already a problem in D&D (particularly something like Shivering Touch), and they're more of a problem in DDO since so many monsters have upscaled hitpoints without a corresponding increase to ability scores.

Nice of you to answer that "why" question I asked.

:rolleyes:

Cowdenicus
03-04-2008, 01:29 PM
There's no resource cost if you're good at it.

If you're not good at it, then maybe you should wait until you're level 17 to expect to beat a level 17 quest without expenses. Complaining that a higher level quest is kinda hard is groundless.

You know what, I accept your challenge. Let me know what server you are on, and within the next month I will either grind up or transfer a cleric and you can show me how to run and complete the shroud without using an exploit and without using resources other than your blue bar as a cleric and still be effective, you know like healing people.

smatt
03-04-2008, 01:30 PM
Hmmmm darn it Cow... I have to agree with you on this :eek: I think cleric shave gotten the shaft as far as Sup Dev 7 itmes not being avaible,they should be as well as Cure mass serious scrolls, Cure Critical wands, and level 10 resist wands. While I think they did do a bit of a balance between melees and the over-powered arcane classes with the design of Mod 6. I think clerics have gotten a bit of a shaft. But let's also remember that that the melees SHOULD be helping out the clerics when questing, I know a lot fo them don't, but I always do and most of the people I run with do. But that's the same old story....


Clerics need SUPERIOR DEVOTION 7 Items, as well as the abiltiy to buy cure mass serious scrolls ASAP!

Cowdenicus
03-04-2008, 01:31 PM
Just curious, how does Devotion differ from Potency?

Back about 6 months ago, maybe a bit longer, my friend and I did a test. I took my cleric and started casting cure lights with no modifiers other than what I had in enhancements. I cast until I was out of spell points. After charging up I grabbed my devotion item and put that on. I cast the same spell until spell points were all gone. Next came the Potency Item of same modifier as devotion. I did the same thing as other two tests.

There was the same effect on the spell by both the Devotion and Potency item. We averaged the numbers between the two of us to make sure there were no errors. Basically you just cast the spell on the other guy and you'll both get the numbers in the combat window. I also casted a buff before each run so we could get separators for data.

Ever since i've been carrying around the highest Superior potency item I could find. I believe I have a Superior potency 6, and as a back up I have a Greater potency VII.

Unless they changed something I'm not sure what other differences there could be.


Devotion is not the same as potency because it has a lower ML to use because it affects only one type of spell whereas potency affects every type of spell.

Devotion affects healing spells, Potency affects ALL spells. Hence there is a differing requirement in the ML.

Heladron
03-04-2008, 02:11 PM
Devotion is not the same as potency because it has a lower ML to use because it affects only one type of spell whereas potency affects every type of spell.

Devotion affects healing spells, Potency affects ALL spells. Hence there is a differing requirement in the ML.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the ML difference, I was only aware of the functional differences, because I gave up trying to get Devotion Items long ago due to prices being too high in the AH. Funny how people want clerics in their party and expect that we're going to pay 1 million gold for a 32K gold item when we tend to be some of the most money challenged characters in the game.

I guess, for now, I'll just stick with my Superior Potency items.

Strumpoo
03-04-2008, 02:27 PM
Clerics need SUPERIOR DEVOTION 7 Items, as well as the abiltiy to buy cure mass serious scrolls ASAP!


I disagree here, at least with some of the quote.

Clerics don't need to be able to buy tons of heal scrolls. I think the game needs to move away from "requiring" mass amounts of outside, ie...purchased healing. We need to be able to heal/cast using our own abilities. Not store bought imitations.

This problem is going to get worse and worse as mob damage increases. Clerics/casters will get poorer and poorer, there will be fewer and fewer of them in game.. and we know where that will lead.

It is hard for tankers to be self sufficient anymore. With upwards of 500 hitpoints, it takes too many pots to heal up. A fighter can't heal himself mid battle anymore since the mobs do too much damage, so even those tanks among us who have no problem trying to help the cleric heal us, can't reliably do so..

Yvonne_Blacksword
03-04-2008, 02:38 PM
I always thought potency and devotion items worked the same...
After I equiped 2 similiar ones, equiped just the potency, equiped just the devotion...
There was no real change between the amount of healing I did.
I am wrong?
Of course, having neither equiped was a serious hit to my effectiveness...

and I have only ever had a superior potency/greater devotion item over level 6..
/cry

Zenako
03-04-2008, 02:42 PM
I always thought potency and devotion items worked the same...
After I equiped 2 similiar ones, equiped just the potency, equiped just the devotion...
There was no real change between the amount of healing I did.
I am wrong?
Of course, having neither equiped was a serious hit to my effectiveness...

and I have only ever had a superior potency/greater devotion item over level 6..
/cry

Potency affects ALL spells, while Devotion only affects healing spells. For some clerics, devotion is all they really need. However if you also casting things like Blade Barriers etc, then Potency is a lot more valuable since it also buffs those damages as well.

Girevik
03-04-2008, 02:43 PM
...because I gave up trying to get Devotion Items long ago due to prices being too high in the AH. Funny how people want clerics in their party and expect that we're going to pay 1 million gold for a 32K gold item when we tend to be some of the most money challenged characters in the game.

I'm with you on this. I have my Tangleroot ring on a 9th level Cleric because its the best item I have been able to get. I've seen better items on the Auction House, but never been able to actually afford them.

Turial
03-04-2008, 02:43 PM
I always thought potency and devotion items worked the same...
After I equiped 2 similiar ones, equiped just the potency, equiped just the devotion...
There was no real change between the amount of healing I did.
I am wrong?
Of course, having neither equiped was a serious hit to my effectiveness...

and I have only ever had a superior potency/greater devotion item over level 6..
/cry

Devotion will boost the damage delt by your cure X wounds spells and heal spells.

Potency will boost the damage of all spells which includes the ones covered by devotion.

So you should as a cleric have a devotion item to boost your healing spells. If you have a potency item of the same caliber (say Superior ________ VIII) you should use that item as it will increase the effectiveness of all your damage dealing spells.

Impaqt
03-04-2008, 02:48 PM
The unholy and chaos versions have significantly different effects, making them much harder to add to DDO. Holy and Law use Blind and Slow, but Chaos and Unholy use Confusion and strength damage.



It is much much harder to make it work and yet not break gameplay. In fact, Antimagic Field doesn't even work right in D&D- it breaks both game balance and setting verisimilitude. It is one of the worst examples in the "oversimplified absolutism" category of game design flaws, which also includes True Seeing, Mind Blank, and Freedom of Movement.

The simplest example in DDO:
1. Recruit 3 barbarians into the group.
2. Stand around Black Abbot in a circle
3. Cast Antimagic Field
4. Abbots Pops "Immune" up over his head and telports away and sends the party to the puzzles
5. Fail Raid

Fixed that for ya Angelus

TFPAQ
03-04-2008, 04:43 PM
You know what, I accept your challenge. Let me know what server you are on, and within the next month I will either grind up or transfer a cleric and you can show me how to run and complete the shroud without using an exploit and without using resources other than your blue bar as a cleric and still be effective, you know like healing people.

A_D,

I apologize for calling you a troll. Big C makes the more mature and valid point. Take him up on it and let us know how it turns out.

Respectfully,

- T

Vormaerin
03-04-2008, 05:17 PM
Seems to me that part of the solution ought to be getting more folks involved in the healing, especially in raid situations. The between fight top ups should definitely not fall on the clerics, for instance. There are tons of characters (bards, paladins, rangers, everyone with UMD (wait, isn't that everyone? :P) that can heal with spells or wands/scrolls.

My healer-bard uses scrolls and wand whips in addition to my blue bar because folks give me those things (or I get them 'for free' from collectibles). But I don't go spending money I can't make back on a quest. On raids, I'd mainly be helping the clerics and buffing the party so I can't really speak directly to that from experience. But it seems to me that the healers are enablers in this disfunctional relationship.

I know I have it easier than a full cleric because no one expects a bard to heal as well as a cleric does, but it still comes down to clerics letting themselves get taken advantage of.

That doesn't directly respond to the OP, obviously. I don't see any reason why Devotion shouldn't drop if Combustion et al of the same magnitude does. Outgoing damage does need to be higher than healing, since mobs have a lot more HP than they generally do damage output. But then there's a lot more folks doing damage than there is healing.

I'm also a little curious as to why Mass Cure Moderate (2d8) with Devotion is better than Mass Cure Serious (3d8) without. Except for the slight SP increase they should be about the same. And when you factor in Empower Healing (or Maximize) and the cleric devotion line of enhancements it should tilt back in the favor of the better base value spells... What is the best Devotion/Potency VII or VIII currently available?

Gornin
03-04-2008, 05:30 PM
I see quite a few saying that clerics got the shaft in Mod 6. Personally, clerics never received any "loving" since the beginning. I commonly play clerics in PnP and have been consistantly disappointed by spell selection and nearly non existant melee abilitiy afforded the clerics due to mob inflation. Mod 6 is just a furthering to this trend. I know some of the other classes need some "love", but we clerics are the most in dire need of it.

I understand the difficulty of coding spells, but that is the number one thing that would help us clerics out. We are channeling the power and will of the gods and it should show. Instead we are nearly relegated to the role of heal/buff bots and always begging for plat/items to support our narrow roles the game has herded us into.

The other things C mentioned would be very helpful too.

And I would like to see any cleric do parts 4 and 5 without expending anything but their own SP, including mana pots. That is ignorant to say it is possible. I can and commonly get through the first 3 parts without expending resources other than my SP's, even on elite, but 4 and 5? No way , no how and not possible. You better have at least 100 each of heal and true res, 4 to 5 CSW wands and a smattering of other goodies to do them.

And if I can do it, I know most others can as I am a competent player, but not uber.

Mad_Bombardier
03-04-2008, 05:46 PM
I'm also a little curious as to why Mass Cure Moderate (2d8) with Devotion is better than Mass Cure Serious (3d8) without. Except for the slight SP increase they should be about the same. And when you factor in Empower Healing (or Maximize) and the cleric devotion line of enhancements it should tilt back in the favor of the better base value spells... What is the best Devotion/Potency VII or VIII currently available?The best Devotion currently available is Superior Devotion 6. You can get Greater Potency VII if you don't mind sacrificing damage on BB/Cometfall and HP healed by Heal spell. This is not normally an option for my Cleric. I use offensive spells and Heal far too regularly to sacrifice for a single L7 CSW:m spell.

CMW:m (2d6+4+16)*1.9*1.5 = 62 - 91 HP healed, avg 76.
CSW:m (3d6+6+16)*1.4*1.5 = 52 - 84 HP healed, avg 67-69.

So, 45 SP for average 76 HP healed or 50 SP for 67-69 HP healed. You tell me which is better. Though, I could pick up a GrPot7 scepter for use when healing in raids.

CSW:m (3d6+6+16)*1.8*1.5 = 67 - 108 HP healed, avg 86-89. 50 SP for 86-89 (across multiple allies) isn't bad. But, I still prefer a 45 SP Heal for 427 HP.

Vormaerin
03-04-2008, 06:31 PM
Hmm, yeah, I forgot that the flat level bonus on the Mass spells doesn't cap like on the regular ones. At high levels that's worth more than the die difference.

And the Mass Cure vs heal spell wouldn't be much altered by an additional 5-10hp on your Mass Cure Moderates. Obviously, the point of mass cure is to cure a lot of people at once. Hopefully they aren't *all* taking enough damage to need Heal at the same time...

Angelus_dead
03-04-2008, 06:36 PM
I see quite a few saying that clerics got the shaft in Mod 6. Personally, clerics never received any "loving" since the beginning. I commonly play clerics in PnP and have been consistantly disappointed by spell selection and nearly non existant melee abilitiy afforded the clerics due to mob inflation.
Non. Existant. Melee.

What are you trying to say? Do you not know that the difference in melee power between a DDO cleric and fighter is less than between a fighter and barbarian?

Perfect Shroud Raid: 1 bard (warchanter), 1 sorc (crystal-blaster), 10 clerics (damage and heals)

Gornin
03-05-2008, 08:18 AM
Non. Existant. Melee.

What are you trying to say? Do you not know that the difference in melee power between a DDO cleric and fighter is less than between a fighter and barbarian?

Perfect Shroud Raid: 1 bard (warchanter), 1 sorc (crystal-blaster), 10 clerics (damage and heals)

So you are saying that my fighter, with a BAB of +28 for just level and strength bonuses vs. my cleric with a +15 can hit all the 40 AC mobs only a little bit better? So all those feats I took on my fighter to give him bonuses to hit and damage and the fact that he gets more swings per round and is stronger and his DPS is 5 times what my clerics' is makes him only slightly more powerful? So when a mob has a thousand hitpoint and a 40 AC and my cleric hits the mob on an 18 or better and does 1d8 + str + wep damage so that it takes him 50 + swings to drop the mob, but my fighter his on a 5 or better and does 2d6 + str + wep damage + feat bonuses and crits on a 15 or better instead of a 20 and only takes him about 10 swings to drop the same mob, that makes him only slightly better? My fighter with a standing 48 AC and 390 HP is only slightly better than my cleric who has a 42 standing AC and 222 HP?

Get real! The mob inflation in this game makes it so only +1 BAB classes and dual wielding rogues with high dex and back stab bonuses are capable of dealing with most mobs (above level 10) on a one to one basis. In a game where grinding for a standing AC of 60 still means you get hit %75 of the time for massive damage so the cleric can't melee if he want to keep the party standing, he has to spend all his time watching the red bars. Sure I get spells to help buff and protect everyone to help mitigate the damage so I don't spend as much on healing, but a cleric from PnP should be the second best frontliner in the game with the monk right after the +1 BAB classes. And the spell selection gets me only 2 worthwile damaging spells and one fails half the time due to inflated SR and saves. Oh I'm sorry, I have a gimp build. Funny for such a gimp build I never have a problem grouping. I know I'm not the best player, but I am competent and get the job done way more often than not.

Go try and convince someone that is more stupid than I that this game is balanced for clerics. Clerics are the most ignored class in this game with the Pallys being a very close second.

And don't get me started on the cost of being a cleric!

Angelus_dead
03-05-2008, 08:35 AM
So you are saying that my fighter, with a BAB of +28 for just level and strength bonuses vs. my cleric with a +15 can hit all the 40 AC mobs only a little bit better? So all those feats I took on my fighter to give him bonuses to hit and damage and the fact that he gets more swings per round and is stronger and his DPS is 5 times what my clerics' is makes him only slightly more powerful?
If you measure the DPS of a battle-specced fighter versus a battle-specced cleric, it is within 25%. The difference between a fighter and barb is over 25%.


So when a mob has a thousand hitpoint and a 40 AC and my cleric hits the mob on an 18 or better and does 1d8 + str + wep damage so that it takes him 50 + swings to drop the mob, but my fighter his on a 5 or better and does 2d6 + str + wep damage + feat bonuses and crits on a 15 or better instead of a 20 and only takes him about 10 swings to drop the same mob, that makes him only slightly better?
Not every cleric can fight in melee, just like not every fighter can either. But it's not like learning Power Attack and Improved Crit seriously cuts into your healing ability.

Clerics in general can fight well. If you choose to make a weak cleric for some reason, that's up to you. For sacrificing melee you can gain some offensive spellcasting power... which is a field you'll never get close to a sorcerer in, no matter how hard you try.


Get real! The mob inflation in this game makes it so only +1 BAB classes and dual wielding rogues with high dex and back stab bonuses are capable of dealing with most mobs (above level 10) on a one to one basis.
Newsflash, clerics have +1 BAB. It's called Divine Power, and it costs about 140 sp to get you from one shrine to the next.


In a game where grinding for a standing AC of 60 still means you get hit %75 of the time for massive damage so the cleric can't melee if he want to keep the party standing, he has to spend all his time watching the red bars.
That's another advantage of the cleric-as-melee-tank: he can handle his own red bar.


Sure I get spells to help buff and protect everyone to help mitigate the damage so I don't spend as much on healing, but a cleric from PnP should be the second best frontliner in the game with the monk right after the +1 BAB classes.
They are. In fact, it is arguably a game-design flaw of DDO (imported from PnP) that clerics are too good at melee. Basically, a cleric with DP 24/7 is stealing the "holy defender" role from the paladin class.

Innoss
03-05-2008, 08:56 AM
I am a new player. Already have a 16 and working on my next. I, in my limited play time, see 2 problems with DDO clerics.


1: too reliant on consumables.
Shouldnt be this way. More people would play a cleric and more groups would be formed and hence more fun had by all if a clerics SP's covered
a quest.

2: Clerics as the main and in some instances only viable healer.
I have seen many times where a group I am in wont budge without a cleric.



The above also leads to players who want to be a melee/casting cleric. As the main healing class when invited to my groups I expect a healer. Dont take the healers spot if you dont intend to heal.

oronisi
03-05-2008, 10:42 AM
I am a new player. Already have a 16 and working on my next. I, in my limited play time, see 2 problems with DDO clerics.


1: too reliant on consumables.
Shouldnt be this way. More people would play a cleric and more groups would be formed and hence more fun had by all if a clerics SP's covered
a quest.

2: Clerics as the main and in some instances only viable healer.
I have seen many times where a group I am in wont budge without a cleric.



The above also leads to players who want to be a melee/casting cleric. As the main healing class when invited to my groups I expect a healer. Dont take the healers spot if you dont intend to heal.


It's a total misconception on the playerbase that clerics are required to quest. What really solidifies this feeling is the raids, which really do require clerics (and other classes for that matter).

I just did a 9-12 Madstone on normal the other day in about an hour. Madstone Crater, the quest people avoid...with 3 lvl 9s, 2 12s, and an 11. No clerics, no bards, no wizards, no sorcerors. A couple pally's a couple fighters, a rogue and a batman build fighter.

Now I've seen perfectly good lvl 14 groups refuse to go into that quest without a cleric. So you have to ask yourself, was my group just that good, or are people clinging onto a giant misconception? I find it hard to believe that I'm that good and player skill can make up for 5 levels and the lack of a nanny-bot.

Strumpoo
03-05-2008, 11:00 AM
It's a total misconception on the playerbase that clerics are required to quest. What really solidifies this feeling is the raids, which really do require clerics (and other classes for that matter).

I just did a 9-12 Madstone on normal the other day in about an hour. Madstone Crater, the quest people avoid...with 3 lvl 9s, 2 12s, and an 11. No clerics, no bards, no wizards, no sorcerors. A couple pally's a couple fighters, a rogue and a batman build fighter.

Now I've seen perfectly good lvl 14 groups refuse to go into that quest without a cleric. So you have to ask yourself, was my group just that good, or are people clinging onto a giant misconception? I find it hard to believe that I'm that good and player skill can make up for 5 levels and the lack of a nanny-bot.


How many disruptors and paralyzers were in that party? :D;)

You can definitely quest without clerics. My guild and I do quite often. It does make the quest more challenging though.

I do not like the fact that some groups won't even attempt a quest without a cleric. But that is just the way some people want to quest, that is their preference. In Raids it is pointless to go in without a cleric.

I agree that clerics should be able to accomplish more with their mana. They definitely need MORE spells.

oronisi
03-05-2008, 01:55 PM
How many disruptors and paralyzers were in that party? :D;)

You can definitely quest without clerics. My guild and I do quite often. It does make the quest more challenging though.

I do not like the fact that some groups won't even attempt a quest without a cleric. But that is just the way some people want to quest, that is their preference. In Raids it is pointless to go in without a cleric.

I agree that clerics should be able to accomplish more with their mana. They definitely need MORE spells.

Maybe 1 of each? 2 of the characters were new to the game and untwinked, and I don't have any min lvl 8 power 5's for my level 9.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 02:08 PM
If you measure the DPS of a battle-specced fighter versus a battle-specced cleric, it is within 25%. The difference between a fighter and barb is over 25%.


Not every cleric can fight in melee, just like not every fighter can either. But it's not like learning Power Attack and Improved Crit seriously cuts into your healing ability.

Clerics in general can fight well. If you choose to make a weak cleric for some reason, that's up to you. For sacrificing melee you can gain some offensive spellcasting power... which is a field you'll never get close to a sorcerer in, no matter how hard you try.


Newsflash, clerics have +1 BAB. It's called Divine Power, and it costs about 140 sp to get you from one shrine to the next.


That's another advantage of the cleric-as-melee-tank: he can handle his own red bar.


They are. In fact, it is arguably a game-design flaw of DDO (imported from PnP) that clerics are too good at melee. Basically, a cleric with DP 24/7 is stealing the "holy defender" role from the paladin class.

1) Thats odd, according to the math I learned my fighter has %90 better to hit before adding in feats and other abilities. That is more than %25.

2)Really, should I take those feats instead of Mental/Imp mental toughness so I have less SP?

3)Weak cleric huh? I think an effective strength 18 before buffs is not weak, except when you compare it to fighters/barbs. How much wisdom was I supposed to sacrifice to be a "strong cleric". Oh, and this is my very first character and he is a 28 point build, so I think I gave him appropiate starting stats based on PnP. That was due to my ignorance on how this game was going to be, but that extra 4 points in strength is only going to close the gap by %10. But this statement is the crux of the problem. You>me. Congratulations.

4)Why should I cast DP on my self when I am not going to get a chance to swing my weapon because I am too busy keeping my party standing?

5)How about I stay out of the action so I don't waste time healing myself when I should be healing someone else that may die because I am healing myself. Since mob AC and HP is so inflated, my meager addition of damage is not that helpful anyway.

6) This is a specious argument. Clerics have always been good at defending themselves, the church and the flock. Since this is their duty, they are trained in heavy armor and combat to fulfill their duties unless their specific religion forbids it. It is not a game design flaw, it is an accurate portrayal. The Paladin still trumps a cleric in melee due to his many immunities which don't cost SP, better BAB, better DPS, better AC and he can self heal. Why are you wasting all those SP for DP all the day long when you aren't going to use it? Save those SP for a heal or a remove curse or something more useful to your PARTY.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 02:12 PM
I agree that clerics should be able to accomplish more with their mana. They definitely need MORE spells.

This is my point since clerical melee is almost useless in this game.

MysticTheurge
03-05-2008, 02:16 PM
1) Thats odd, according to the math I learned my fighter has %90 better to hit before adding in feats and other abilities. That is more than %25.

Without numbers this doesn't really prove anything.

Realistically, you're looking at +2 from WF/GWF and +1 or 2 from Strength Enhancements. Maybe another 1 or 2 from starting stats (though it's not hard for a cleric to put points in strength. A 16 8 14 8 18 8 stat array is a 32 pointer; and a battle cleric could theoretically swap Str and Wis, unless you're casting offensive spells a lot, that point is just a few SPs.)


2)Really, should I take those feats instead of Mental/Imp mental toughness so I have less SP?

Extend, Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Crit, Quicken, MT, IMT.

There's an easy 7 feats for a Human Battle Cleric. And yes, for a non-human, I'd probably drop IMT first. 85 SPs really doesn't make that much a difference.


4)Why should I cast DP on my self when I am not going to get a chance to swing my weapon because I am too busy keeping my party standing?

In theory, your party shouldn't need you to keep them standing.

If they do, you might be better off getting the aggro off them with a quick cometfall or something.


5)How about I stay out of the action so I don't waste time healing myself when I should be healing someone else that may die because I am healing myself. Since mob AC and HP is so inflated, my meager addition of damage is not that helpful anyway.

That's just silly.

Laith
03-05-2008, 02:18 PM
This is my point since clerical melee is almost useless in this game.battle clerics are like rangers: until you see a really good one, or run the numbers yourself, you'll always underestimate them.

a battle cleric is basically a casting/healing cleric as soon as he pulls out a potency item and step to the back lines.
The loss is standard clerical ability not that great considering the melee potential that can be gained.

seriously, angelus is right on the money with this one.

Lizardgrad89
03-05-2008, 03:27 PM
Anything that reduces the out of pocket costs for clerics is a good thing to my way of thinking. While it is posible to run without a cleric a fair portion of the time, having a halfway competant cleric strengthens the party enormously-- not just healing, but buffs, croud control and attack spells. Running without a cleric gets expensive fast. But clerics have always been reliant on consumable for healing. First it was wands, now it's scrolls as well. I've always felt that these consumables should be a backup and the vast majority of healing should come from SP. But with the current attack bonuses for mobs, it's hard to mitigate damage. Adding enhancements and items to make SP usage more efficient is a good first step. But I think we're going to have to talk about AC vs. Attack Bonus pretty soon if we want to keep costs for clerics under control.


There are a few other cost controlling options as well:

1. Increase Cleric SP.
2. Add some Haggle enhancements to the Clerics line (for purchase/sale of Cleric consumables only)
3. Give a little more healing ability to Bards (and maybe Rangers), so that they can help the Cleric a bit more.

I agree wholeheartedly that Clericing is far too expensive. Frankly, I think it needs to be looked at sooner rather than later.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 03:29 PM
!
Without numbers this doesn't really prove anything.

Realistically, you're looking at +2 from WF/GWF and +1 or 2 from Strength Enhancements. Maybe another 1 or 2 from starting stats (though it's not hard for a cleric to put points in strength. A 16 8 14 8 18 8 stat array is a 32 pointer; and a battle cleric could theoretically swap Str and Wis, unless you're casting offensive spells a lot, that point is just a few SPs.)



Extend, Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Crit, Quicken, MT, IMT.

There's an easy 7 feats for a Human Battle Cleric. And yes, for a non-human, I'd probably drop IMT first. 85 SPs really doesn't make that much a difference.



In theory, your party shouldn't need you to keep them standing.

If they do, you might be better off getting the aggro off them with a quick cometfall or something.



That's just silly.

1) Numbers were in previous post, but I will relist them. Just BAB and strength bonus my fighter has +28, my cleric has +15. That is a %90 improved better chance to hit. And why would you start any character with and 8? This game is over the top, so why give up that point. And I also stated that this is my first character, so he is a 28 point build. I think his starting stats were 12,12,12,10,16,14. A good starter for a PnP cleric. I said it in that post that I did not realize how over the top this game was going to be. I claim my own ignorance. My base SP are 1365.

2) I believe my feats are Empower healing / Wep focus blunt / MT / IMT / Rapid reload / Rapid shot and I think Toughness. Not sure on the last one.

3) Then I guess every group I run with just sucks. Or could it be the inflated static instead of iterative attack bonuses, inflated AC's and inflated HP of the mobs? I am pretty sure it is the latter since it is so consistant. And I do inject the occasional CF, Smite or some such to help with CC if I have the time to take from healing, but with the inflated saves and many immunities, it is successful less than %50 of the time, and when they find out something works really well, they nerf it any way.

4) May be silly, but it works much better than when I try to melee and some one dies because it took me too long to finish my sequence and start casting.


Below level 10 or so, it is not too bad and I used to melee regularly with my cleric, but above that, I am just not hitting often enough or for enough damage to make it worthwhile, and that is not due to bad build, it is due to inflation. this character in a PnP campaign would be a very viable build and would spend much less time buffing/healing and alot more time in melee or ranging.

MysticTheurge
03-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Just BAB and strength bonus my fighter has +28, my cleric has +15.

We're not talking about a comparison between your fighter and your cleric.

We're talking about a well-made battlecleric in relation to a well-made fighter.

Laith
03-05-2008, 03:34 PM
1) Numbers were in previous post, but I will relist them. Just BAB and strength bonus my fighter has +28, my cleric has +15. That is a %90 improved better chance to hit. And why would you start any character with and 8? This game is over the top, so why give up that point. And I also stated that this is my first character, so he is a 28 point build. I think his starting stats were 12,12,12,10,16,14. A good starter for a PnP cleric. I said it in that post that I did not realize how over the top this game was going to be. I claim my own ignorance. My base SP are 1365.
You didn't build a cleric for combat, he's not good at it.

Stop trying to say that your cleric is a reliable judge of how good a cleric can be at melee when BUILT for it.

Luthen
03-05-2008, 03:34 PM
I do agree that there should be some changes and additions. Not just with clerics but acros the board. But as a cleric myself I will toss my hat into the ring for this argument and /agree with much of your comments save the following:

No new enhancement lines.... Clerics still do not have improved metamagics available, they have no new enhancements since the faith lines which when compared to the other classes "PrC" types of lines, well lets just say they are significantly underpowered. Can clerics get something new? Please.

Umm... Improved Empower Healing? I understand you probably mean Empower, Maximize, but just make sure you're clear on that.


:snip:
Superior 7's should theoretically drop out of the shroud on elite. Once everyone is running shroud as easily as reaver Im sure we will start seeing more superior 7's. :snip:

Actually it was stated, I'm gonna have to dig it up from the depths, that those items were intentionally not put into the game yet. So if you can find the quote before me I'll mail you avorpal bunny from Cow's collection. :p

Luthen
03-05-2008, 03:38 PM
This is my point since clerical melee is almost useless in this game.

You've been around some poor meleeing clerics then.:eek:

Gornin
03-05-2008, 03:38 PM
battle clerics are like rangers: until you see a really good one, or run the numbers yourself, you'll always underestimate them.

a battle cleric is basically a casting/healing cleric as soon as he pulls out a potency item and step to the back lines.
The loss is standard clerical ability not that great considering the melee potential that can be gained.

seriously, angelus is right on the money with this one.

I disagree and look to my response to MT and see if I don't have some valid points. Not saying I am right, but I think I do have some good points. And I am not the only one who plays their cleric this way. *Most* clerics play this way, even the "battle clerics", because it doesn't take long for them to stop swinging and start healing. And as you can see from my stats, my intent was to build a "battle cleric", which to me is just a cleric from PnP.

And what started this discussion is Angelus' absurd assertion that all 5 parts of the shroud can be done on blue bar alone. 1 to 3, yes, even on elite, and I have done it several times. Part 4 would take some incredible luck IMO, and 5 is no way in Hades that you ain't digging into the pouch praying you have enough consumables and that you are quick enough.

MysticTheurge
03-05-2008, 03:41 PM
And as you can see from my stats, my intent was to build a "battle cleric", which to me is just a cleric from PnP.

You didn't build a good battle cleric for DDO.

There's nothing wrong with that. Consider it a learning experience.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 03:41 PM
We're not talking about a comparison between your fighter and your cleric.

We're talking about a well-made battlecleric in relation to a well-made fighter.

Yes we were. That was what I was pointing out to Angelus, and your cleric would have a +19, so my fighter would have a %75 better chance to hit compared to your cleric and that is not figuring in my fighters feats. Still a huge difference.

I can only compare what facts I know. I cannot speculate on any one elses build.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 03:45 PM
You didn't build a good battle cleric for DDO.

There's nothing wrong with that. Consider it a learning experience.

I already stated my ignorance, thank you. Yours wouldn't come out much better even with 4 more points.

Luthen
03-05-2008, 03:52 PM
Yes we were. That was I was pointing out to Angelus, and your cleric would have a +19, so my fighter would have a %75 better chance to hit compared to your cleric and that is not figuring in my fighters feats. Still a huge difference.

I can only compare what facts I know. I cannot speculate on any one elses build.

I am curious what kind of "Battle Cleric" you are basing this on? I have been asked, in PvP, to go toe to toe with a tank. However they often say "You can't cast any spells... just a melee fight". That's a narrow view of "melee". Clerics have at their disposal numerous stat increasing spells... (ie. Prayer, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Recitation). While using these spells my attack is equal, and often better, then most fighters. So how can you say that a fighter "will" have a 75% higher chance to hit? At the optimal build using you're own abilities and spells only without outside influence a well built "Battle Cleric" is on par, if not edging out, a fighter in melee ability. Assuming that the player controlling them are equally similar.

Laith
03-05-2008, 03:55 PM
I can only compare what facts I know. I cannot speculate on any one elses build.Please refer to the Forum titled "Cleric", under the "Class Discussion" group. There you will find several cleric builds.

Rest assured that most builds with "battle" in the title will have found a way to raise their strength to ~30 while still reaching a wisdom of 28 or more.

keep in mind that currently wisdom caps at 35.

now, i'm completely aware that you may be unable to reach these kind of peaks, but that doesn't make it impossible.

MysticTheurge
03-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Yes we were. That was I was pointing out to Angelus, and your cleric would have a +19, so my fighter would have a %75 better chance to hit compared to your cleric and that is not figuring in my fighters feats. Still a huge difference.

I can only compare what facts I know. I cannot speculate on any one elses build.

Yes you can.

Look, it's simple.

Things fighters and clerics share: 1/1 BAB (thanks to Divine Power), +6 enhancement bonus to strength, 18 starting strength, +5 weapons, most feats

Things Fighters have that Clerics don't: +3 Str from enhancements, WS/GWF/GWS, 4 points of strength from leveling up (Being generous here)

Things Clerics have that Fighters don't: Divine Favor

Verdict
Fighter has access to +5 to hit and +8 damage (assuming the +7 str pushes him to an even number, otherwise it's +4/+7)
Cleric has access to +3 to hit and +3 damage (If the cleric spends his level up points on Str instead of Wis this goes up to +5/+5)

So we're looking at +5/+8 vs. +3/+3 if the fighter spends three feats, 12 AP, all four of his stat increases and an item slot (for +6 strength). The cleric only needs to spend about 35 spell points a minute on it (or 55 SP every 2 minutes with 1 feat).

Cowdenicus
03-05-2008, 03:58 PM
I do agree that there should be some changes and additions. Not just with clerics but acros the board. But as a cleric myself I will toss my hat into the ring for this argument and /agree with much of your comments save the following:


Umm... Improved Empower Healing? I understand you probably mean Empower, Maximize, but just make sure you're clear on that.



Actually it was stated, I'm gonna have to dig it up from the depths, that those items were intentionally not put into the game yet. So if you can find the quote before me I'll mail you avorpal bunny from Cow's collection. :p

I am talking not just about improved empower healing, but also Improved maximize (great for mass healing especially since it does not affect the heal spell) and Improved Quicken, because as a cleric I hate being interrupted ever. Empower could also be useful in certain situations. And my vorpal bunnies are mine alone. :D

Gornin
03-05-2008, 04:08 PM
You didn't build a cleric for combat, he's not good at it.

Stop trying to say that your cleric is a reliable judge of how good a cleric can be at melee when BUILT for it.

I'm know and I'm not. Stop trying to say that I am saying my build is the best or right one or that I am comparing my builds to everyone elses. I am not. I am just using a build that I know to get numbers. He is just an example of how an average cleric in PnP is severely borked due to the inflation, because in PnP he would be fairly effective at melee, but not in this game. That is why I said the cleric spell list really needs to be fleshed out more.

MT's 32 point build would only have +3 to hit from BAB and str compared to my cleric. Not much of a difference in this game.

I'm trying to say how the mob inflation has affected melee effectiveness of clerics. I'm not saying it can't be done. I am saying that the effectiveness has been severely affected by inflation.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 04:09 PM
You've been around some poor meleeing clerics then.:eek:

Myself included :D

Gornin
03-05-2008, 04:20 PM
I am curious what kind of "Battle Cleric" you are basing this on? I have been asked, in PvP, to go toe to toe with a tank. However they often say "You can't cast any spells... just a melee fight". That's a narrow view of "melee". Clerics have at their disposal numerous stat increasing spells... (ie. Prayer, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Recitation). While using these spells my attack is equal, and often better, then most fighters. So how can you say that a fighter "will" have a 75% higher chance to hit? At the optimal build using you're own abilities and spells only without outside influence a well built "Battle Cleric" is on par, if not edging out, a fighter in melee ability. Assuming that the player controlling them are equally similar.

I am talking about just base stats at lvl 16. Since gear and feat choices widen the gap considerably and are highly variable, I just wanted to go with what is basic to show how the inflation affect melee effectiveness for clerics. I am coming from a perspective that in PnP a cleric can frontline effectively without having to rely on all of his spells. The spells run out, and need to used at the best time to increase party survivability.

A fighter should be glad to have a cleric gaurd his flank, because he knows that while he isn't as good at mixing it up as he is, he knows that the cleric is effective.

My points are that effectiveness of clerics in melee has been affected, unless you crunch the numbers and get a very specific build, not that it can't be done, and we shouldn't have to cookie cut our characters to be good at one thing.

And the fighter can get alot of those buffs too, to offset the bonuses you get.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 04:28 PM
Please refer to the Forum titled "Cleric", under the "Class Discussion" group. There you will find several cleric builds.

Rest assured that most builds with "battle" in the title will have found a way to raise their strength to ~30 while still reaching a wisdom of 28 or more.

keep in mind that currently wisdom caps at 35.

now, i'm completely aware that you may be unable to reach these kind of peaks, but that doesn't make it impossible.

Agreed and understood.

I am not getting my point across as well as I would like. I just see that the effectiveness of clerical melee is only acheivable with a special build. I don't believe that is the way it should be. But that is the way this game is and that is why I why I think the clerics need their spell lists to be expanded, so that the ones with out the specific builds have more choices to be effective.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 04:52 PM
Yes you can.

Look, it's simple.

Things fighters and clerics share: 1/1 BAB (thanks to Divine Power), +6 enhancement bonus to strength, 18 starting strength, +5 weapons, most feats

Things Fighters have that Clerics don't: +3 Str from enhancements, WS/GWF/GWS, 4 points of strength from leveling up (Being generous here)

Things Clerics have that Fighters don't: Divine Favor

Verdict
Fighter has access to +5 to hit and +8 damage (assuming the +7 str pushes him to an even number, otherwise it's +4/+7)
Cleric has access to +3 to hit and +3 damage (If the cleric spends his level up points on Str instead of Wis this goes up to +5/+5)

So we're looking at +5/+8 vs. +3/+3 if the fighter spends three feats, 12 AP, all four of his stat increases and an item slot (for +6 strength). The cleric only needs to spend about 35 spell points a minute on it (or 55 SP every 2 minutes with 1 feat).

Exactly my point. Special specific build and sacrifice spell casting ability to melee well enough in this game, when in PnP I wouldn't have too. I would still have all of my spells for my level and still be an effective melee character.

Thank you for finally proving my point. Due to mob inflation, a cleric must sacrifice spell casting effectiveness to gain melee effectiveness when he shouldn't have too. I thought DnD wasn't supposed to do that, especially when a clerics role is both.

Zenako
03-05-2008, 04:54 PM
Let also interject a couple of small observations.

"Effectiveness" - In my experience what one person considers effect, another player might consider ineffective or gimped. Some players want close to 100% success rates to consider anything "effective" while others are satisfied with "50%" as being effective. Until that term is defined, you could be talking about the same thing but coming to different conclusions.

Same thing with how Effective a Melee is. Is it effective if I Paralyze the mob and then kill it without taking any damage in 20 seconds, or does the mob have to die in 4 seconds to be considered effective (DPS BArbarians who might/likely do take some nicks in those 4 seconds anyway that will need tending at some point). There is no single right answer until you establish the parameters of the debate/discussion.

bobbryan2
03-05-2008, 05:12 PM
Exactly my point. Special specific build and sacrifice spell casting ability to melee well enough in this game, when in PnP I wouldn't have too. I would still have all of my spells for my level and still be an effective melee character.

Thank you for finally proving my point. Due to mob inflation, a cleric must sacrifice spell casting effectiveness to gain melee effectiveness when he shouldn't have too. I thought DnD wasn't supposed to do that, especially when a clerics role is both.

But here's our point.

EVERYTHING in DDO needs a relatively appropriate build to make it work. In PnP, you have DM to custom design dungeons and even change things midstream to fit the strengths and weaknesses of a party.

In DDO.. you have a static dungeon that has things that have to be accomplished. It is, instead, on the players to create characters that can accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

Yes, it's different, but it's also the reality of the situation. You can't simply take whatever class you want, and put whatever skill and stat points whereever you want and be considered to be effective enough to do what you need to do. In this game, several 'concept' builds either work or are complete and utter failures. That's the name of this game, like it or hate it.

Eudimio
03-05-2008, 05:37 PM
I disagree and look to my response to MT and see if I don't have some valid points. Not saying I am right, but I think I do have some good points. And I am not the only one who plays their cleric this way. *Most* clerics play this way, even the "battle clerics", because it doesn't take long for them to stop swinging and start healing. And as you can see from my stats, my intent was to build a "battle cleric", which to me is just a cleric from PnP.

And what started this discussion is Angelus' absurd assertion that all 5 parts of the shroud can be done on blue bar alone. 1 to 3, yes, even on elite, and I have done it several times. Part 4 would take some incredible luck IMO, and 5 is no way in Hades that you ain't digging into the pouch praying you have enough consumables and that you are quick enough.

Hey Gornin,

It's okay if you are still having problems running the shroud efficiently. It takes an optimized group of 12 people for that. Here's a simple question for you: What weapon(s) are you using against the pit fiend? They make an enormous difference in the battle. A good group will kill Aerratrikos the second time he spawns in part 4. If your cleric runs out of spellpoints in less than five minutes, then you should rethink your build. Part 5 will take even less time (excluding time used killing the four mini-bosses). So what's the problem?

Now, I disagree with Angelus' optimized group of 10 clerics, 1 warchanter, 1 sorceror. The sorceror is completely unnecessary. But you could replace some clerics with superb dps types--str-based tempest rangers and twf rogues. Their evasion makes up for the slight decrease in hitpoints.

I've been in several shroud pug raids where the leader assigns one cleric to one tank. There are usually only three clerics. So it becomes a classic DDO raid with at least half of the raiders standing around doing nothing. If anyone thinks that three melees will do more damage than twelve melees, let me know what game you're playing.

And for those confused types, here's some math (more of a story problem):
Heal spell costs 35 spellpoints and heals 285 points on a single target, likely more than they need.
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds spell costs 35 spellpoints and heals roughly 50 points on all targets in range.
So MCMW does absolutely more healing when used on 6 or more targets.
If all 12 raiders are in melee range, it's more than twice as efficient.
A crit heal doesn't help much, a crit MCMW will likely hit at least one target every time it is cast.
Mass Cure Light Wounds spell costs 30 spellpoints and heals roughly 40 points on all targets in range.
MCLW becomes more efficent than heal when used on 7 targets or more.
That is assuming that the heal spel and critical heals never heal more than the target needs (almost never true).

To reitterate, most of the posters in this thread join shroud raids that have about 1/4 to 1/3 the power as a good group. So do you clerics think you could complete this raid with no consumables if you had triple the spellpoints? What about quadruple the melee damage output?

YMMV.
Happy Hunting.

Edit:

Oops, I forgot to explain how melee clerics fight in this battle:

Step 1. Cast Divine Power, Divine Favor, turn on quicken spell.
Step 2. Turn on Auto Attack and target Aerratrikos.
Step 3. Enter melee range, you are likely now swinging your weapon.
Step 5. After 5-swing attack combo completes (more or less), cast MCMW.
Step 6. 5 more swings, cast MCLW if necessary.
Step 7. 5 more swings, check to see if you need to renew Divine Power, Divine Favor, or Recitation.
Step 8. If Aerratrikos=Alive, GOTO Step 5
Step 9. Resurrect any sloppy party members.
Step 10. Get your loot.
Step 11. Don't forget your end reward!

MysticTheurge
03-05-2008, 05:46 PM
Due to mob inflation, a cleric must sacrifice spell casting effectiveness to gain melee effectiveness when he shouldn't have too.

No. Our point was that you don't really have to do that.

If you go with my 32 point build above (16 8 14 8 18 8) you'll have plenty of spellcasting ability, and still only be a few points behind the fighter in our example. You're not giving up any significant spellcasting feats. Or very many spell points. Or any wisdom.

Heck, my original 28-point cleric only had a 16 wisdom to start and he does alright, so you could probably even swap strength and wisdom in that stat array and be fine.


I thought DnD wasn't supposed to do that, especially when a clerics role is both.

It's fairly widely accepted throughout the D&D 3.5 community that it's something of a problem that the cleric is pretty much the best at everything. This post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10303525&postcount=6) on the wizards boards sums it up pretty well.

DDO isn't nearly as bad as D&D in this respect, but clerics are still pretty damn powerful.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2008, 06:07 PM
It's fairly widely accepted throughout the D&D 3.5 community that it's something of a problem that the cleric is pretty much the best at everything. This post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10303525&postcount=6) on the wizards boards sums it up pretty well.
The D&D designers have published a post mortem evaluation of the 3.5 class design in a recent book. Called "Races & Classes". It explains why the next edition cleric will have less melee power than currently.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2008, 06:29 PM
Step 2. Turn on Auto Attack and target Aerratrikos.
Step 3. Enter melee range, you are likely now swinging your weapon.
Step 5. After 5-swing attack combo completes (more or less), cast MCMW.
Note that if you want to get fancy about it, you can do better than that. You should be using a two-hand weapon for more damage, but the two-hand animation is slower at BAB 16. By manually attacking you can use a shorter attack combo which has more DPS. You can practice doing this while destroying portals in phase 1, and if you get comfortable do it in the real boss fight.

Also, if you really and truly have 4+ clerics (which is unlikely, that was just an example), then you need more coordination of who is healing when. If you have all the clerics healing from the beginning, you'll waste mana by quadruple overhealing. So, you need to have an order made of which 3 clerics are healing first, and a list planned of who will take over when those guys run out-of-mana.

And remember to pass your DVs to the other clerics when they're down to about half mana! 10 clerics worth of DVs is actually a lot of spellpoints.

Gornin
03-05-2008, 06:44 PM
I swear, training Wogs is easier than having an adult debate on here. Are you being purposefully obtuse or do you guys just like not acknowledging anything that doesn't come from you? Unfortunately for you, I have seen several of you make the same points that I have made in this thread, but when I reiterate them, you just ignore them and pull things out of context to make it seem like I am saying things I'm not.

Did I say I had difficulty running/completing the shroud? No, I did say it is expensive to run the shroud? Yes. Why? Because I don't cherry pick who I play with. The Fiend drops usually no later than fourth time in my groups. I know what to do, and we manage even with non elite groups.
Did I ask for more mana? No. I'll repeat what I asked for later.

Did I say I don't understand how this game is? Yes, in the beginning. Happy now that I have said it 3 times in one thread? Jeez. Do I get how to build characters now? Yes, my rogue and fighter are much more effective builds, I did not make the same mistakes that I did with my first ones. Should I delete my first 2 characters and start over with them, after 2 years of playing them and accomplishing all the same things you uber builds did? According to you I should. Too bad and quit telling me how I should play my characters. I don't play this game to be an elitest, I play for fun, and a lot of the fun gets sucked out of the game when you have to cookie cutter build your characters and grind for all the pretties because of the inflationary trend of this game, just to be good at ONE aspect of your class role.

Oh, and I can do the math. But I don't play this game to number crunch and eke out every tiny little advantage I can. Whatever happened to play what you want and play it well. Isn't that what everyone crows about in this game? The options and the ability to make non standard cookie cutter builds? To me, the game is trending to only specific builds will be successful, and that is not the spirit of DnD.

What did I ask for? Get rid of the enhancements? No, but that would allow the mobs to be less inflated, along with DC's and other mechanics. Lets see, what did I ask for? Oh, I remember, even though everyone wants to ignore it. Let me say it again in its own line.


Please expand the cleric spell list so that all clerics have more options to be more effective at their job without having to be a specific cookie cutter build to be effective at ONE aspect of your class roles at the cost of other roles of the class.


If this was about rogues being forced into trap monkey builds everyone would be agreeing with me.

Innoss
03-05-2008, 06:59 PM
It's a total misconception on the playerbase that clerics are required to quest. What really solidifies this feeling is the raids, which really do require clerics (and other classes for that matter).

I just did a 9-12 Madstone on normal the other day in about an hour. Madstone Crater, the quest people avoid...with 3 lvl 9s, 2 12s, and an 11. No clerics, no bards, no wizards, no sorcerors. A couple pally's a couple fighters, a rogue and a batman build fighter.

Now I've seen perfectly good lvl 14 groups refuse to go into that quest without a cleric. So you have to ask yourself, was my group just that good, or are people clinging onto a giant misconception? I find it hard to believe that I'm that good and player skill can make up for 5 levels and the lack of a nanny-bot.

Screenshot or it didnt happen. I personally have played every major MMO on the market and consider myself a very good player and id refuse to go in there without a caster. I really call bullcrap on killing the endguy with that group without questionable tactics and futhermore id refuse to use that many consumables in a group like that when i could give half(and generally I donate to the cleric after the quest) of that money to said cleric.


After re reading your group makeup I stand by my 1st impression of calling bullcrap .

Angelus_dead
03-05-2008, 07:04 PM
I swear, training Wogs is easier than having an adult debate on here. Are you being purposefully obtuse or do you guys just like not acknowledging anything that doesn't come from you? Unfortunately for you, I have seen several of you make the same points that I have made in this thread, but when I reiterate them, you just ignore them and pull things out of context to make it seem like I am saying things I'm not.
Here is a reminder of what you wrote: "This is my point since clerical melee is almost useless in this game."

That is 100% false. Cleric melee power is not anywhere close to useless.


Did I say I had difficulty running/completing the shroud? No, I did say it is expensive to run the shroud? Yes. Why? Because I don't cherry pick who I play with. The Fiend drops usually no later than fourth time in my groups. I know what to do, and we manage even with non elite groups.
Did I ask for more mana? No. I'll repeat what I asked for later.
That isn't what you had been talking about before. It is another subject- possibly a subject you would prefer to discuss... but when you write something so hilariously false as "clerical melee is almost useless", you can't expect people to pay attention to anything else you say.



Please expand the cleric spell list so that all clerics have more options to be more effective at their job without having to be a specific cookie cutter build to be effective at ONE aspect of your class roles at the cost of other roles of the class.
It would be very nice to see some more cleric spells, especially at the neglected level 8. But using demonstrable falsehoods to support that suggestion doesn't help.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2008, 07:06 PM
Screenshot or it didnt happen. I personally have played every major MMO on the market and consider myself a very good player and id refuse to go in there without a caster. I really call bullcrap on killing the endguy with that group without questionable tactics
Huh?? The end guy is about the easiest part for noncasters. You randomly pick one of your barbarians, give him a +5 maul, rage him up, and he runs up the hill to beat on a big skeleton.

Compared with the trolls, minotaurs, and skeleton barbarians, a skeleton wizard is no trouble.

Innoss
03-05-2008, 07:11 PM
All you kids talking about melee clerics. Meh the game has 1 major healing class. The cleric. Fine want to play a melee cleric. Tell the group leader (specifically me) your melee so they can kick you out and look for the guy who wants to be a team member.


Back to original discussion. lets look into helping clerics negate some of the consumable debt.

Innoss
03-05-2008, 07:14 PM
Huh?? The end guy is about the easiest part for noncasters. You randomly pick one of your barbarians, give him a +5 maul, rage him up, and he runs up the hill to beat on a big skeleton.

Compared with the trolls, minotaurs, and skeleton barbarians, a skeleton wizard is no trouble.

meh still call **** on the hour long madstone with that makeup. Come to thelanis and show me. Ill be the 6th person watching.

MysticTheurge
03-05-2008, 07:21 PM
Back to original discussion. lets look into helping clerics negate some of the consumable debt.

On that topic... if everyone else who can heal, which is, oh, just about everyone, does, then it significantly reduces cleric's consumable expenses. And also it matters less whether your cleric is melee'ing it up. Heck, in that situation you kind of want your cleric melee'ing it up, cause it helps the party accomplish it's goals.

But then, I'm sure you're too busy looking for a healbot to actually be a, what was the phrase, "team member."

nbhs275
03-05-2008, 07:23 PM
First, to the OP i would like to say Great post! Good observations, solid opinions, real issues and delivered in a non-whining way.

I think that our lvl 7-8 mass spells are rather poor choices from a efficiency standpoint, but i must say i do use them, on my battle cleric that is. When im fighting alongside a group of melees(good example, on vale 4 where there is 5-9 melees in basically one spot) i cast cure critical mass, because it would be slower to switch to my devotion scepter, cast cure mod mass, and switch back. But in any situation where time isnt short, the lower level spells are far better.

What i am most disappointed with was our eighth level spell selection. Firestorm is nearly useless to the average cleric, as we lack enhancments to power it up, items to power it up, and its slow casting. Flamestrike is a better choice then that spell.


Still, i dont feel the pressure of the cost of scrolls, because i tend to not go out of my way to help people not helping themselves. If the caster keeps getting crushed because hes aggroing mobs and unable to control them, then i will save both of us money, toss him in a pocket, and res him up when the fights done.

I think alot of clerics make 1 of 2 mistakes. Either they start burning scrolls early and often, and use them to solve minor damage that a potion or wand whip would cover. Or they go over zealous with the healing, burning mana very fast to keep everyone at 100% all the time, and then have to bridge the gap to the shrine with their wallet. Its a matter of stricking a balance, of healing enough to keep everyone moving, but not so much that your wasting it when it doesnt matter. Just like the casters who will dominate the first fight of the quest and then not have enough mana to kill a nat.

Innoss
03-05-2008, 07:28 PM
Every class has a role. I cant help it if you choose to play a class outside of its role. Everyone else is expecting you to play your role and in essence your not being a team member by choosing otherwise. When i roll a cleric in the near future, hence why i am here in this discussion in the first place, I will play the role of the.. what do people call it? Nannybot? What, does healing other people and contributing to the role of your class hurt your epeen?

bobbryan2
03-05-2008, 10:47 PM
Every class has a role. I cant help it if you choose to play a class outside of its role. Everyone else is expecting you to play your role and in essence your not being a team member by choosing otherwise. When i roll a cleric in the near future, hence why i am here in this discussion in the first place, I will play the role of the.. what do people call it? Nannybot? What, does healing other people and contributing to the role of your class hurt your epeen?

Yes... everybody has a role. And there's nothing wrong with a cleric taking up the role of main tank. The class is more than capable of handling the job... Especially once you start getting a cleric/barbarian warforged with rages and bladesworn transformations.

The fact that you think every class only has one possible role to fill is a problem. Rogues can be built as trap monkeys or as megaDPS bots of doom. Rangers can either be built for melee tankage or a ranged/support build. I've got a sorcerer with no offensive spells, and uses greatswords and can do pretty decently as the main tank.

Don't be shortsighted on what a character can do. If you have a melee cleric in the party... and you want a healer, put an LFM up for another one.

Eudimio
03-05-2008, 10:56 PM
I swear, training Wogs is easier than having an adult debate on here. Are you being purposefully obtuse or do you guys just like not acknowledging anything that doesn't come from you? Unfortunately for you, I have seen several of you make the same points that I have made in this thread, but when I reiterate them, you just ignore them and pull things out of context to make it seem like I am saying things I'm not.

Did I say I had difficulty running/completing the shroud? No, I did say it is expensive to run the shroud? Yes. Why? Because I don't cherry pick who I play with. The Fiend drops usually no later than fourth time in my groups. I know what to do, and we manage even with non elite groups.
Did I ask for more mana? No. I'll repeat what I asked for later.

Did I say I don't understand how this game is? Yes, in the beginning. Happy now that I have said it 3 times in one thread? Jeez. Do I get how to build characters now? Yes, my rogue and fighter are much more effective builds, I did not make the same mistakes that I did with my first ones. Should I delete my first 2 characters and start over with them, after 2 years of playing them and accomplishing all the same things you uber builds did? According to you I should. Too bad and quit telling me how I should play my characters. I don't play this game to be an elitest, I play for fun, and a lot of the fun gets sucked out of the game when you have to cookie cutter build your characters and grind for all the pretties because of the inflationary trend of this game, just to be good at ONE aspect of your class role.

Oh, and I can do the math. But I don't play this game to number crunch and eke out every tiny little advantage I can. Whatever happened to play what you want and play it well. Isn't that what everyone crows about in this game? The options and the ability to make non standard cookie cutter builds? To me, the game is trending to only specific builds will be successful, and that is not the spirit of DnD.

What did I ask for? Get rid of the enhancements? No, but that would allow the mobs to be less inflated, along with DC's and other mechanics. Lets see, what did I ask for? Oh, I remember, even though everyone wants to ignore it. Let me say it again in its own line.


Please expand the cleric spell list so that all clerics have more options to be more effective at their job without having to be a specific cookie cutter build to be effective at ONE aspect of your class roles at the cost of other roles of the class.


If this was about rogues being forced into trap monkey builds everyone would be agreeing with me.

It looks like a bit of your post was in reference to mine, which was my first on this thread. But your first paragraph doesn't seem like it. To me, spending a vast amount of resources to finish a quest is the same as having difficulty with it. So I guess we're not using the same dictionary. That's okay.

Rethinking your build is not the same as rerolling it. My main has had every feat swapped at least twice now. One of the things I enjoy about this game is the continuous improvement of you characters. If you built your character to accomplish one goal and do not think that you can expand it to other goals, I'm not gonna get in your way. But you have to realize that some people play this game on a different level. And if the rules change to make the game easier for you, it will become less enjoyable to others.

The math was pretty simple. I've shown how you could double or triple the group effectiveness in that raid (or more). That's not a little advantage.

Okay, getting near the end. I don't think anyone disagrees that clerics should have better options for level 8 spells. And no one has.

Your last line made me laugh. I'd rip you up and down if you'd try to argue that rogues are being forced into being trap-monkeys. I disagree with that 100%. Trap-monkey rogues are near-useless. Dps rogues are the only way to fly.

Happy Hunting.

Eudimio
03-05-2008, 11:01 PM
meh still call **** on the hour long madstone with that makeup. Come to thelanis and show me. Ill be the 6th person watching.

Are you joking? One hour for madstone is a very long time. They were obviously taking their time and being careful. Any group with that makeup on that quest is guaranteed to be made up of great players. Poor players in that group would have run home crying to their mommy (cleric).

Lol! You're on Thelanis? Go ask Jellybean to solo it for you. Maybe he can bring a few of his batmen to run behind him trying to catch up.

Happy Hunting.

Eudimio
03-05-2008, 11:02 PM
Well said, Bobbyran. People define their roles. Their classes do not.

Innoss
03-05-2008, 11:09 PM
i didnt say every class has 1 role. I said clerics are the main healing class. As such their abilities to heal offer far more to a group than their usefulness as a melee. I also said if you wanted to play a melee cleric, that was fine, just tell me before we enter a quest so i can boot you for a better melee or get a real healer. Dont like that stance or view. Tough. i dont like yours.

Eudimio
03-05-2008, 11:14 PM
Innoss,

In a good group, a cleric will likely only spend about 25% of their spellpoints on healing. That goes up significantly in raids. What do your clerics do with the rest of your resources?

Happy Hunting.

Aranticus
03-05-2008, 11:18 PM
You know what, I accept your challenge. Let me know what server you are on, and within the next month I will either grind up or transfer a cleric and you can show me how to run and complete the shroud without using an exploit and without using resources other than your blue bar as a cleric and still be effective, you know like healing people.

poor Cow got neglected

Steiner-Davion
03-05-2008, 11:20 PM
[eaten by cube]

Aside from that, solid complaints, but do remember , most shrines are re-usable now, so from the developers standpoint, that negates some of your main complaint points.
Rest Shrines are ONLY re-usable on NORMAL

Eudimio
03-05-2008, 11:24 PM
The answer to Cow's question is Khyber. But bringing a power-leveled gimp* along will make the quest a little harder.

Happy Hunting.

*Gimp is used in the above statement to refer to a 28 point-buy character with very poor items. It does not necessarily reflect on my opinion of your play style, as I have none.

nbhs275
03-05-2008, 11:30 PM
The answer to Cow's question is Khyber. But bringing a power-leveled gimp* along will make the quest a little harder.

Happy Hunting.

*Gimp is used in the above statement to refer to a 28 point-buy character with very poor items. It does not necessarily reflect on my opinion of your play style, as I have none.

Please come to khyber cow, ill grab my battle cleric and show you how to beat on portals and keep a party healed. How to kill the mobs in 2, and tank 1 of the bosses while healing. How to do puzzles without healing once(if your using any resources in this part your a fool). And best yet how to heal the groups melees beating on big red in part 4. Part 5 is endless mana yet again, so no one person should be burning through scrolls.

Angelus_dead
03-06-2008, 06:52 AM
The answer to Cow's question is Khyber. But bringing a power-leveled gimp* along will make the quest a little harder.
More importantly, bringing a player who has a vested interest in seeing the mission fail would make it harder. Maybe a lot harder.

A challenge of the form "I bet you can't do that if I was in the party" is inherently invalid, because it's no predictor of what the group could do if every member was really trying to help. Even if the "observer" player claimed "Don't worry, I'll be good, I'll do whatever you tell me to help", he's still in the awkward position of working against his own goal.

Cowdenicus
03-06-2008, 07:15 AM
More importantly, bringing a player who has a vested interest in seeing the mission fail would make it harder. Maybe a lot harder.

A challenge of the form "I bet you can't do that if I was in the party" is inherently invalid, because it's no predictor of what the group could do if every member was really trying to help. Even if the "observer" player claimed "Don't worry, I'll be good, I'll do whatever you tell me to help", he's still in the awkward position of working against his own goal.

lol like i would sabotage myself like that......

You assume I have no integrity.

Angelus_dead
03-06-2008, 08:02 AM
lol like i would sabotage myself like that......
But that is what you'd have to do. If you tried to help the raid, you would be sabotaging yourself in this thread, because you'd be working against your own published position.

Solieri
03-06-2008, 08:39 AM
Well... I think clerics seem very fun to play.. although I am not a very high level yet.

I do have to ask: Is this is the same Cow that ranted nonstop on the EQ 2 forums about how clerics weren't uber enough?

It is a comical coincidence that I have now played 2 games with a Cowdenicus cleric who is disastisfied with clerics and post that clerics needs more....

Maybe it's a doppleganger! =o

bobbryan2
03-06-2008, 08:45 AM
i didnt say every class has 1 role. I said clerics are the main healing class. As such their abilities to heal offer far more to a group than their usefulness as a melee. I also said if you wanted to play a melee cleric, that was fine, just tell me before we enter a quest so i can boot you for a better melee or get a real healer. Dont like that stance or view. Tough. i dont like yours.

At times, I agree, and at times I disagree. There are very few quests that need a dedicated healer. Requiring a dedicated healer usually means you're not playing well.

Luthen
03-06-2008, 09:36 AM
Exactly my point. Special specific build and sacrifice spell casting ability to melee well enough in this game, when in PnP I wouldn't have too. I would still have all of my spells for my level and still be an effective melee character.

Thank you for finally proving my point. Due to mob inflation, a cleric must sacrifice spell casting effectiveness to gain melee effectiveness when he shouldn't have too. I thought DnD wasn't supposed to do that, especially when a clerics role is both.

I have many characters. But I want to focus on my "Battle Cleric" vs my straight Fighter. This is with equal gear and what not.

Madmardigan: Cleric (Unbuffed)
24 Str (+6 item)
14 Dex (No item)
24 Con (+6 item)
32 Wis (+6 item)

Theodread: Fighter (Unbuffed)
30 Str (+6 item)
19 Dex (+4 item -- Madstone boots)
28 Con (+6 item)

The cleric can effectively melee with or without self buffing with Divine Power or Recitation. He is not "gimped" in any aspect and has enough HP to safely handle tanking duties. Plus he can self heal. His BAB is high enough and he gets the 6 attack swings like a fighter when he does use Divine Power. There is een room for adjustment in there if you want a little less Str and more Con. Melee wqill still be high enough to be effective.

nbhs275
03-06-2008, 10:19 AM
I dont find my battlecleric gimped for melee or casting

26 str standing (buffs to a 36)
26 con standing (buffs to a 40)
28 wisdom

393 standing hitpoints(once i get more farming done in the shroud it will rise to 472 standing with about 100 more fully raged)
1511 SP


My healing is maxed, i always get my heal off with quicken, and i have a good selection of weapons and armor. There isnt many healing clerics with more sp then me, and if they do they are almost always also in a hitpoint range where they themselves are ineffiecent to heal.

Average attack is at +27 damage, +34 raged. Thats right about where the average fighter falls, but the fighter cant cast heal at lightning speed.

Cowdenicus
03-06-2008, 10:29 AM
But that is what you'd have to do. If you tried to help the raid, you would be sabotaging yourself in this thread, because you'd be working against your own published position.

No I wouldnt, because I know you cant do it. There is no way you can heal through part 4 and part 5 using no consumables on that raid. But thank you for trying to derail my thread.

Eudimio
03-06-2008, 10:41 AM
No I wouldnt, because I know you cant do it. There is no way you can heal through part 4 and part 5 using no consumables on that raid. But thank you for trying to derail my thread.

Why are you being so thick? There may be no way YOU can do it. But it is a common occurance on Khyber. When mod 6 went live I bought 100 heal scrolls, 100 mass cure mod scrolls, 100 greater restoration scrolls, 100 resurrection scrolls (raise is for wimps). After ransacking the quest several times and without buying more supplies, I now have 141 heal scrolls, 101 mass cure mod scrolls, 100 greater restoration scrolls, and 98 resurrection scrolls. And I've been given plat many times after even 1-4 loot runs.

Gornin
03-06-2008, 10:42 AM
Fine, I give up. You guys keep making my point while you say you aren't. I can't seem to get past your blind spot because you guys have way more time to dedicate to this game and will refuse, not can't, refuse to understand where the average player is, even though you build your characters around the point I am making.

Thanks for the twisting of my words, ignoring my words and just the general bashing. Hope you had fun. This is why so many don't try to say anything on the forums. I have not done so to anybody on these forums and respect your opinions, but I guess since I haven't paid attention to the forums until recently, I don't deserve the same respect. But when any of you guys say similar or even the same things in other places on these forums, that makes it right. Thanks for nothing.

Oh, and I am sure you will take this post as an opportunity to bash me some more. Gotta love it.

Solieri
03-06-2008, 10:52 AM
Don't get frustrated, Gornin. The board regulars will have thier uber contests... that is the typical board banter of regulars who hang out on boards.

That doesn't mean that others aren't reading your posts and even agree with you. I see what you are saying about the average player, and it makes sense. It's all good.

Cowdenicus
03-06-2008, 10:52 AM
Why are you being so thick? There may be no way YOU can do it. But it is a common occurance on Khyber. When mod 6 went live I bought 100 heal scrolls, 100 mass cure mod scrolls, 100 greater restoration scrolls, 100 resurrection scrolls (raise is for wimps). After ransacking the quest several times and without buying more supplies, I now have 141 heal scrolls, 101 mass cure mod scrolls, 100 greater restoration scrolls, and 98 resurrection scrolls. And I've been given plat many times after even 1-4 loot runs.

:rolleyes:

Gunga
03-06-2008, 10:56 AM
I think the Heal Scroll is causing a large problem for game balance. Its inclusion on vendors would seem to indicate that the developers intend us to use these (and lots of them!) as a tool to solve adventure content. I think heal scrolls, and infinite vendor access to scrolls and wands in general, end up breaking the D&D concept of resource scarcity. You give our characters limited SPs and limited shrine use and then add a supply of consumables to counter-act that. Thats not very smart, at least not at the current vendor prices for wands and scrolls.

I would rather have content be designed and played via tactics that require resource management other than dozens of Heal scrolls and mana potions. At least the mana potions are expensive enough not to be a truly reliable resource. Its bad that cleric players, more than any other class, have the burden of needing 100s of 1000s of gold invested in consumables at high levels, and then they are expected to burn through that at an alarming rate.

Please fix.

I think the game has been set up quite well, and allows players of all levels of competence to develop a style that works for them. We could adjust the resource management problem you're speaking of by using less heal scrolls or wands. Then, not only would we have to manage our resources more wisely, but those we are healing. Which could mean that joining a group with 2 WF Barbs and a batman rogue as the main tanks might not be a good idea, unless we are confident of their capabilities. Or maybe the zerging pseudotanks will decide to load up on some more pots, get some ac and play a little smarter after we let them die a few times.

I run primarily with my guild. We waste tons of extra resources while we are learning new content and establishing roles for completion...the first shroud completion cost us 100s of heal scrolls and about 100 big boy mana pots. Once everyone learns what to do, the use of scrolls and pots decrease dramatically and actually makes room in the quest for a couple pikers. :) We can get pretty far by adjusting our playing styles if we are having some difficulties before we go crying to the devs for a rework of the game...just my 2 cents.

thatguy
03-06-2008, 11:23 AM
I have 3 superior potency 6 items.... for nukes this is all i need.

Superior devotion 7 and 8 on the other hand would power up mass cure serious and critical respectively (and only those 2 spells) hence my mass healing would be 50% more effective. (for those 2 spells)

The best I have is greater potency 7, with superior combustion 7 items out there with almost as much frequency as spell pen 7 scepters, I can't believe that there are no Superior potency 7 or 8 items out there. Why was this obviously overlooked? Horrible over site if you ask me.

HumanJHawkins
03-06-2008, 11:25 AM
The one thing I have found to be severely lacking are Devotion items. I mean the best devotion item I have seen to date is Superior Devotion 6. The best Devotion item one can craft (known to date) is Superior Devotion 6, yet even as far back as Mod 4 I have been carrying around a superior potency 6 item, which means essentially my ability to heal (power wise) has gone up exactly 0%.
Wait a minute... Are you saying that Potency and Devotion stack?

I never even thought to look for that... But I also have no problem healing even a raged barbarian in one shot without it... Still... It would free up my empower healing feat for something else...

Mad_Bombardier
03-06-2008, 11:43 AM
Wait a minute... Are you saying that Potency and Devotion stack?No, he is not.

Gornin
03-06-2008, 12:17 PM
Don't get frustrated, Gornin. The board regulars will have thier uber contests... that is the typical board banter of regulars who hang out on boards.

That doesn't mean that others aren't reading your posts and even agree with you. I see what you are saying about the average player, and it makes sense. It's all good.

Thanks for the kind words, but how can I not get frustrated when people put words in your mouth? And it isn't banter, it's disrespect.

Strumpoo
03-06-2008, 12:49 PM
I think a lot of people are agreeing that the clerics need some help. The whole "my build is better than your build" has kind of taken over the post now though.

I will state it again, clerics and arcanes need more spells. We not only need an increase in numbers of spells but an increase in USEFUL spells.

How many casters out there are specd for lightning and acid damage...?? /crickets chirping

It would be nice to increase the options and the spell arsenal for the casting classes.

Those of you saying you don't expend resources in the new raid are full of it. You know you are, you know it requires expendables. Quit trying to make yourselves look like the Uber Leetz gamerZZ, all you are doing is making yourself look foolish and no one really cares.

I think someone, the OP, put together a well thought out first post with some of his concerns and some ideas on how to fix them.

If no one ever looked in chaging the dynamics of the game, we would still be running around with tanks and their one click "uber fighter boosts" along with full plate wearing evaders, "all web all the time" arcanes, among other things. Ideas should constantly given to the devs on game play and improvement. It helps them make a better game, and that is what we all want.

No need to jump on him because his opinion differs from yours, how about thinking of ways to improve his situation (which some of you did, with the mass heal suggestions), instead of attacks and bashing his characters.

No need to bash him for running a 28 pt build. Two of my mains are 28 pointers (don't want to reroll since I like them) and they do just fine, in fact, they excel in this game, I don't feel like I am "gimped" by running either of them.

Zuldar
03-06-2008, 01:16 PM
!

1) Numbers were in previous post, but I will relist them. Just BAB and strength bonus my fighter has +28, my cleric has +15. That is a %90 improved better chance to hit. And why would you start any character with and 8? This game is over the top, so why give up that point. And I also stated that this is my first character, so he is a 28 point build. I think his starting stats were 12,12,12,10,16,14. A good starter for a PnP cleric. I said it in that post that I did not realize how over the top this game was going to be. I claim my own ignorance. My base SP are 1365.

2) I believe my feats are Empower healing / Wep focus blunt / MT / IMT / Rapid reload / Rapid shot and I think Toughness. Not sure on the last one.

3) Then I guess every group I run with just sucks. Or could it be the inflated static instead of iterative attack bonuses, inflated AC's and inflated HP of the mobs? I am pretty sure it is the latter since it is so consistant. And I do inject the occasional CF, Smite or some such to help with CC if I have the time to take from healing, but with the inflated saves and many immunities, it is successful less than %50 of the time, and when they find out something works really well, they nerf it any way.

4) May be silly, but it works much better than when I try to melee and some one dies because it took me too long to finish my sequence and start casting.


Below level 10 or so, it is not too bad and I used to melee regularly with my cleric, but above that, I am just not hitting often enough or for enough damage to make it worthwhile, and that is not due to bad build, it is due to inflation. this character in a PnP campaign would be a very viable build and would spend much less time buffing/healing and alot more time in melee or ranging.

Actually that only amounts to a 53.57142% increase, and that's likely cause your cleric is specced to be gimped at fighting. As mt stated earlier you fighter really only can get 3 to hit higher then a cleric and 5 more damage. A cleric on the other hand can cast divine power giving +3 to hit and 3 to damage. Already they can hit just as often and only do 2 damage less.

So really the only thing a fighter gets over a cleric is 2 damage, 32 hit points, and a bunch of feats from a selection so poor even straight fighters run out of useful stuff to take.

On the other hand a cleric will get a much better will save, self healing, crowd control (nothing better dps wise then having every attack be a crit), the ability to raise dead, insta-gib spells, self buffs such as; resists, prayer and recitation (making their to hit 3 higher then a fighters along with some ac and saves), death ward, freedom of movement, shield of faith for early on when noone has a protection item, protection from evil (which from what I've heard currently stacks for some reason), oh I could just keep spouting off abilities that a fighter will never get without guess what? a cleric.

For your second statement I must say that is an "interesting" choice of feats. For my choices I probably would have taken: empower healing, mental toughness, ewp: khopesh, power attack, improved crit slashing, either imp mental toughness or quicken, maximize. Now this choice is with a nod at keeping other's up and running, if that wasn't a concern say running solo or with a group that can manage themselves I'd switch out maximize for toughness or so.

As for point 3 those situations would affect the fighter as well, and seeing as the cleric can get a higher to hit then a fighter it would be less of an issue.

For point 4 if they die in the short time it takes to perform an attack they shouldn't be that close to combat in the first place. Hypothetically if it did happen just toss them a res, they don't care about the cost of resources why bother caring about their piddly 1000 gold repair bill.

Gunga
03-06-2008, 01:21 PM
Those of you saying you don't expend resources in the new raid are full of it. You know you are, you know it requires expendables. Quit trying to make yourselves look like the Uber Leetz gamerZZ, all you are doing is making yourself look foolish and no one really cares.

I guess you're still using a bunch of expendables in the new raid...



We not only need an increase in numbers of spells but an increase in USEFUL spells.


OK. Such as?



How many casters out there are specd for lightning and acid damage...?? /crickets chirping


So you're saying these aren't useful spells and that we should do away with them, or that the devs should make some situations where they'd be more useful? Having the devs add more spells wouldn't solve either of these issues...

Zuldar
03-06-2008, 01:22 PM
All you kids talking about melee clerics. Meh the game has 1 major healing class. The cleric. Fine want to play a melee cleric. Tell the group leader (specifically me) your melee so they can kick you out and look for the guy who wants to be a team member.


Back to original discussion. lets look into helping clerics negate some of the consumable debt.

So you're saying that you would rather have a boring fighter, then a fighter who can also heal in a pinch and raise you after you die?

I'll take a well built cleric any day.

GlassCannon
03-06-2008, 03:04 PM
So you're saying that you would rather have a boring fighter, then a fighter who can also heal in a pinch and raise you after you die?

I'll take a well built cleric any day.

I'll gladly toss a melee caster out of group any chance I get(A melee cleric reminds me of the legendary Demii Goddess, who sadly no longer exists). The only thing those are good for is soloing, or doing low level content, never end-game content.

As for a Fighter that can Raise Dead, Ressurect, use Heal scrolls and the like with no failure... take a look at Baalzaru. Ftr12/Rog2/Rgr2, Ordos Draconum, Argonessen. His new alt is Spisey McHaggis, Bbn12/Rog2/Rgr2.

GlassCannon
03-06-2008, 03:06 PM
Has many pieces of Raid Loot, which is the sole reason she has not been terminated. She is parked until further notice(and has been since MOD 5).

Fix Clerics or this game may die.

Also replace Caster Level and Enhancements on Wands and Scrolls. I'm tired of tossing a Cure Serious for 96, then wand whipping for 28.

oronisi
03-06-2008, 03:11 PM
Screenshot or it didnt happen. I personally have played every major MMO on the market and consider myself a very good player and id refuse to go in there without a caster. I really call bullcrap on killing the endguy with that group without questionable tactics and futhermore id refuse to use that many consumables in a group like that when i could give half(and generally I donate to the cleric after the quest) of that money to said cleric.


After re reading your group makeup I stand by my 1st impression of calling bullcrap .

I'm simply amazed at the limited scope in which people play this game. As for the final boss, we had 2 paladins, my lvl 9 rogue had 2 lvl s splashed in paladin, and the batman build fighter had 2 levels of paladin splashed. We all used lay on hands and smite evil to take him down real quick. You can call it bullcrap and believe that you need your nannybot as much as you want...whatever helps you sleep at night. I will continue to have fun with whatever group forms and adjust our tactics and quest selection according to party and desired challenge.

Turial
03-06-2008, 03:30 PM
Has many pieces of Raid Loot, which is the sole reason she has not been terminated. She is parked until further notice(and has been since MOD 5).

Fix Clerics or this game may die.

Also replace Caster Level and Enhancements on Wands and Scrolls. I'm tired of tossing a Cure Serious for 96, then wand whipping for 28.

This one should go back to where it was back before the enhancement change where items and everything boosted your wands and scrolls. When it was changed it was a good thing as spells were a poor substitute for the boosted power of wands and scrolls. Now that sp pools were changed and levels are higher we will likely see less of cleric relying almost 100% on consumables. In cases where they have to be used though it would be a nice boost rather then a loosing battle.

wiglin
03-06-2008, 03:32 PM
I was playing back up healer to one of the tanks on a shroud normal, and I used 83 heal scrolls. I do have an issue with quest design that causes you to have to use scrolls for completion, and without glitching or exploiting that is quite a challenge on some quests. Scrolls, Wands, and Mana Pots, should be for emergency use. Anti-wipe type stuff. That is not the case in ddo. I do not agree with this type of quest design. The D20 system has alot of flaws. We do not have defense like most other mmorpgs, we have AC and DR. With Elite mobs hitting AC in the 50's with ease, and no other real way to mitigate damage since dr does not stack it leads to alot of resources being used. This in my opinion is poor game design.

I enjoy this game, but I agree something should be done. The reason why other mmo's have a gameplay design of tanks, dps, support, and healer, is because it works. With AC losing its value and no real way to solidify aggro, hitpoints become king which means hitpoint recovery becomes survivability. This leads to lots of external resources being used to finish a quest.

Angelus_dead
03-06-2008, 03:37 PM
I was playing back up healer to one of the tanks on a shroud normal, and I used 83 heal scrolls. I do have an issue with quest design that causes you to have to use scrolls for completion
There is no such thing as a "healer to one of the tanks" in The Shroud. If you're doing it right, you simply have two clerics assigned to heal all tanks.

Using single-target Heal spells in The Shroud is a tactical error which hugely inflates the resource consumption.

oronisi
03-06-2008, 03:39 PM
There is no such thing as a "healer to one of the tanks" in The Shroud. If you're doing it right, you simply have two clerics assigned to heal all tanks.

Using single-target Heal spells in The Shroud is a tactical error which hugely inflates the resource consumption.

He could be talking about part 2, where you are by design supposed to split the bosses apart. It's real hard to AoE heal 4 different tanks on 4 different corners of the map.

Angelus_dead
03-06-2008, 03:42 PM
He could be talking about part 2, where you are by design supposed to split the bosses apart. It's real hard to AoE heal 4 different tanks on 4 different corners of the map.
Yes, but in part 2 you'd have to really screw up to need 80 scrolls of healing. Even 5 scrolls would mean you'd messed up somehow... especially considering all the free mana from tree trunks.

Parts 4 or 5 are where healing can be challenging, and that's where players need to reconsider the value of Mass Cure spells, which are more effective the bigger your group is. Someone who tries to use the "Hero Method" from VON6 is throwing plat away.

Cowdenicus
03-06-2008, 03:50 PM
Yes, but in part 2 you'd have to really screw up to need 80 scrolls of healing. Even 5 scrolls would mean you'd messed up somehow... especially considering all the free mana from tree trunks.

Parts 4 or 5 are where healing can be challenging, and that's where players need to reconsider the value of Mass Cure spells, which are more effective the bigger your group is. Someone who tries to use the "Hero Method" from VON6 is throwing plat away.

And the value of mass cure spells would go up dramatically with superior devotion 7 and 8 items. As opposed to the artificial cap of superior devotion 6.

Eudimio
03-06-2008, 04:30 PM
Those of you saying you don't expend resources in the new raid are full of it. You know you are, you know it requires expendables. Quit trying to make yourselves look like the Uber Leetz gamerZZ, all you are doing is making yourself look foolish and no one really cares.

If no one ever looked in chaging the dynamics of the game, we would still be running around with tanks and their one click "uber fighter boosts" along with full plate wearing evaders, "all web all the time" arcanes, among other things. Ideas should constantly given to the devs on game play and improvement. It helps them make a better game, and that is what we all want.

No need to jump on him because his opinion differs from yours, how about thinking of ways to improve his situation (which some of you did, with the mass heal suggestions), instead of attacks and bashing his characters.

(selections deleted)

Strumpoo,

Thank you for saying that some of the posters are "full of it". I'm very sorry you have to expend resources to complete The Shroud. Do you still expend resources in The Dragon, The Titan, The Marilith, The Reaver? Those all used to be very expensive, and I hope that you can at least agree that if you have to spend even one wand charge in any of those on elite, then you are doing something wrong.

The second paragraph that I quoted from your post defines my attitude. My main is a rogue. How many times have we heard, "Make traps tougher", "Make traps easier", "Make traps tougher", "Make traps easier", "Make traps tougher", and finally, coming in Mod 7, "Make traps easier"? Yeah, that many times. Each time it was driven by complainers on these forums. Mages got to ride a similar rollercoaster. So did pallies. So this is what you want for clerics too? No one is disagreeing that clerics couldn't use actually usefull level 8 spells.

Clerics are already the most balanced and powerful class in DDO, as they are in D&D. They've been saved from the nerf bat because so few choose to play them to their potential. I'm included in that group. My cleric knows how to stay alive and conserve spell points. That's pretty much my role.

As far as the bickerring of people who say The shroud does or does not require expendable cleric resources, do you think it's a coincidence that those people can roughly be groupped into Khyber-players or non-Khyber-players? It's not! The first Shroud completion was done by a PUG on Khyber. I don't care about Uber Leet Skillz. Our server has had more time and success than the others.

A lot of people are upset with what happened to the Abbot raid. It was initially balanced and an appropriate challenge. The developers decided to make it more difficult (nearly impossible without luck or exploits) after so much complaining by the have-nots. I sincerely wish that does not happen on this new raid. Right now, normal can be completed without using consumables. In a month, hard or elite will be the same. In another month, I hope there is a new challenge.

And I'm not bashing people. There are posters that essentially are calling others liars. You are one of them. Why is it so difficult to grasp that when melee output more than doubles, and clerical healing expenditures drop by more than a third, the raid gets easier? Really? Two passes of Aerretrikos on part 4, and less than 5 minutes of him on part 5. Even using inefficient tactics, no clerics should run out of spellpoints in that situation. And if they do, kick back, the fiend will be dead in a few more seconds.

Happy Hunting.

Eudimio
03-06-2008, 04:38 PM
And the value of mass cure spells would go up dramatically with superior devotion 7 and 8 items. As opposed to the artificial cap of superior devotion 6.

Cow, that's a MINOR upgrade to healing power versus a MAJOR upgrade of healing 12 people at once.

How much more healing will mass cure serious do compared to mass cure moderate with your sup dev 8 item? 10%? 20%? That's not dramatic in my book. 100%, 200%, that's more like it.

Happy Hunting.

wiglin
03-06-2008, 04:48 PM
There is no such thing as a "healer to one of the tanks" in The Shroud. If you're doing it right, you simply have two clerics assigned to heal all tanks.

Using single-target Heal spells in The Shroud is a tactical error which hugely inflates the resource consumption.

I would agree, unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to run this quest with poor poeple who have had to come up with better tactics then consumables. I would say this though that it doesn't change the fact that the d20 system does not have defense so to speak. It has chance to avoid attacks through ac or twitch skills (to a degree). I like this system, but AC needs to be effective through all levels. Allow the tanks to well actually tank, not just take damage that needs to be healed. If Tanks (not dps mellee that have tons of hitpoints but no ac) could maintain an ac that would mitigate enough damage to warrant having it, then mabee more people would play cleric. I know poeple that won't play cleric because generally it costs quite a bit more to level than other classes.

Gornin
03-06-2008, 04:49 PM
Actually that only amounts to a 53.57142% increase, and that's likely cause your cleric is specced to be gimped at fighting. As mt stated earlier you fighter really only can get 3 to hit higher then a cleric and 5 more damage. A cleric on the other hand can cast divine power giving +3 to hit and 3 to damage. Already they can hit just as often and only do 2 damage less.

So really the only thing a fighter gets over a cleric is 2 damage, 32 hit points, and a bunch of feats from a selection so poor even straight fighters run out of useful stuff to take.

On the other hand a cleric will get a much better will save, self healing, crowd control (nothing better dps wise then having every attack be a crit), the ability to raise dead, insta-gib spells, self buffs such as; resists, prayer and recitation (making their to hit 3 higher then a fighters along with some ac and saves), death ward, freedom of movement, shield of faith for early on when noone has a protection item, protection from evil (which from what I've heard currently stacks for some reason), oh I could just keep spouting off abilities that a fighter will never get without guess what? a cleric.

For your second statement I must say that is an "interesting" choice of feats. For my choices I probably would have taken: empower healing, mental toughness, ewp: khopesh, power attack, improved crit slashing, either imp mental toughness or quicken, maximize. Now this choice is with a nod at keeping other's up and running, if that wasn't a concern say running solo or with a group that can manage themselves I'd switch out maximize for toughness or so.

As for point 3 those situations would affect the fighter as well, and seeing as the cleric can get a higher to hit then a fighter it would be less of an issue.

For point 4 if they die in the short time it takes to perform an attack they shouldn't be that close to combat in the first place. Hypothetically if it did happen just toss them a res, they don't care about the cost of resources why bother caring about their piddly 1000 gold repair bill.

I appreciate what you are saying, but that isn't really the point I was trying to make. I know he isn't specced properly for this game, his starting stats are what I would start a 28 point PnP cleric at, because I did not know this game was going to be so much different. That is my point, and I was saying is that this is why clerics need to have better/more spells to enable those of us without standard builds ( mistakes or purposeful) to be able to be more effective without having to reroll and do a cookie cutter build.

A cleric with his starting stats would do well in a PnP campaign both as a spell caster and a melee combatant. Once I realized the escalation of this game, I started concentrating on his spellcasting ability (WIS score), so that I would have more SP and better SR penetration. This is what I am talking about. By this level in a PnP game, he would have a Wis of 20, all of his spells, and a decent attack and decent damage without giving up alot of stuff by taking 8's in a couple of scores. But since we have the escalation of AC and HP and attack bonuses of mobs, a cleric needs to sacrifice either spellcasting ability to melee better, or melee to cast better, or to be decent at both he has to give up some AC/HP/saves/ or turn udead and some hits to some skills like diplomacy.

See this game makes you choose (IMO) extremes, and to counter that I simply said that the clerical spells need to expanded, not just 8th level spells, but all spells.

Actually though, those crossbow feats are working out pretty well. With Storm, a wounding/puncturing and a couple of other nice crossbows, I can add fairly well to the DPS and keep my party up. And I can melee the trash mobs ok too, like the trogs in the shroud, and can manage to hang with the devils but not the orthons. It just takes me alot longer than a fighter/barb/ranger. The only real big issue I have is the bosses in raids, that is where I am strictly a heal bot, but with a better selection of spells, I might be able to contribute more.

Thanks for being civil and actually reading and responding to my words, even though that post really wasn't what I was trying to make my point on.

MysticTheurge
03-06-2008, 04:59 PM
He could be talking about part 2, where you are by design supposed to split the bosses apart. It's real hard to AoE heal 4 different tanks on 4 different corners of the map.

Yeah, I'm not that great at all this business, but even I can get SPs back faster in those trees than I can expend it healing up the one tank with aggro in my corner.

nbhs275
03-06-2008, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I'm not that great at all this business, but even I can get SPs back faster in those trees than I can expend it healing up the one tank with aggro in my corner.

Those fights are so easy on normal, especially if you split them up. I often take one by my self and kill it, so instead of 4 groups of 3, there is me handling one(usually the kobold/orc), a group of 2 handling another of the softer ones(one of the ellies) and then 5 beating on each of the remaining too. I dont know how some clerics manage to run out of mana in those fights.

Torosar
03-06-2008, 10:33 PM
No I wouldnt, because I know you cant do it. There is no way you can heal through part 4 and part 5 using no consumables on that raid. But thank you for trying to derail my thread.

I disagree on the basis of i've seen 1 cleric solo heal 11 other players through phase 4 without using a wand charge, heal scroll or mana pot. That cleric also solo healed those players through phase 5 and used 7 heal scrolls only. All that was needed to negate any consumables on his part was a 2nd cleric for phase 5. Groups go in there usually with at least 3 clerics... and it only takes 2 of them to use mass cure mod wounds to comfortably keep everyone alive (which i think someone pointed out, most likely eudimio or angelus.. or both).

You know, it isn't necssarily your fault if you can't get through it without using consumables.. the other 11 people have their own jobs to do.. including giving people the appropriate buffs, having right equipment etc. If everyone does their job, you won't ever use a consumable in there (especially with part 4).

Pellegro
03-06-2008, 11:01 PM
While I think clerics are on balance powerful enough, I do have to agree that they've been lacking in attention lately.

The spell list in particular was disappointing.

As for Devotion items ... It doesn't bother me. They failed to include lvl VII and VIII (note: NOT IIX, no such thing as IIX) items for all casters, the glaring exception being Combustion, which is the school least in need of added damage.

But the spell list and paucity of interesting enhancements leaves clerics a little bit lacking.

Of course, Palladins are in a similar boat ....

miracle23
03-06-2008, 11:23 PM
Clerics can most certainly go thorugh part 4 wihtout using more tahn their sp. If the whole group knows what they are doing and have the right weapons. It can all be done in 2 rounds. IN part 5 you have the pools where you can recharge mana. Again very dooable without scrolls or mana pots. Learn how small things improve overall group performance and you will not be a poor cleric.
This is all on normal off course.

Vormaerin
03-07-2008, 03:43 AM
As people have pointed out, there are plenty of other healing options for any regular quest. This is the basic fact: Many people who are not playing a cleric simply do not want to spend money on consumables. Which is fine, as long as they don't expect the cleric to do so.

If you can't do the quest without blowing tons of consumables, then something needs to change in how you play. I'm not talking about raids specifically, just in general. My experience in pugs is there is a distinct lack of crowd control (when I'm not playing my bard, anyway). Sure, some folks use it but its a staple in how my regular play group (bard, 'battle cleric', rogue, sorceror) does things. My bard is actually the main healer in that group and the battle cleric is support. But in most cases the sorceror and I disable the bulk of the foes, so getting pounded into pulp isn't an issue. And if it is, I drop out of the fighting and start Empowered Healing with Mass Cures and Cure Crits. Bards don't need Potency/Devotion VII, though..

These arguments about "you can or can't do that" are pretty silly. Everyone plays the game differently. Our group teamed up with another bard for some quests and it was night and day the difference between what his bard and my bard could do. He was reliably CCing stuff I wouldn't bother trying on, while he couldn't do much beyond the basics in healing. They are both good bards, they just do different things well.

The same thing applies to clerics. They have three things they can do well: fight, blast stuff (well, at higher level..not so good early on), and heal. You can't do all three at a top notch level. But its unreasonable to assume that just because they are a cleric, that they will be specialized in uber healing so you can coast along with whatever *you* feel like in terms of playstyle or build.

AEschyl
03-07-2008, 04:05 AM
You know what, I accept your challenge. Let me know what server you are on, and within the next month I will either grind up or transfer a cleric and you can show me how to run and complete the shroud without using an exploit and without using resources other than your blue bar as a cleric and still be effective, you know like healing people.

hey cow, i can vouch for ang if you want to save yourself the effort of actually backing that statement up.

not to brag or w/e, but since this is about to get into a p1ssing contest i'll simply state the facts of tonight's shroud-completion:

3 clerics
3 fighters
3 rangers
2 casters
1 bard

completion time: 77 minutes

cleric resources used: spell points.

Parts 1-3.. easily done with no resources
Part 4: we finished him in 3 go'rounds
Part 5: we finished before all of the portals-that-spawn-blades had spawned.. still had mana-pools available for use upon completion.

now things that help the clerics out? (you know, things that a good group/guild will do)
-Keep Stoneskin, Haste, and Fire Protection on the tanks (2 casters keeping it refreshed)
-Make sure the rangers/clerics/casters know where to stand to take minimal to zero damage.

Turial
03-07-2008, 05:44 AM
The inclusion of rangers in a raid party also helps in managing clerical resources as they can either do damage from melee or range depending on their manyshot timer status. That and some rangers are used to self healing more then other classes because prior to the tempest love rangers were fairly low on the heal priority list for some people.

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 07:17 AM
If the whole group knows what they are doing and have the right weapons. It can all be done in 2 rounds.

This is pretty much the crux of the Cleric Consumables issue in Part 4 if you ask me.

Having a bunch of tanks who aren't bypassing his DR = Clerics wasting a lot of consumables.

Strumpoo
03-07-2008, 11:11 AM
This is pretty much the crux of the Cleric Consumables issue in Part 4 if you ask me.

Having a bunch of tanks who aren't bypassing his DR = Clerics wasting a lot of consumables.


I have a feeling these people "not using consumables" Are using certain "strategies" :rolleyes:, I know of that bug the **** out of the boss. :rolleyes:

I could be and may be totally incorrect. But I find it hard to believe the some people seem to have "absolutely no problems" beating the hell out of the raid, while 90-95% of the others playing the game say they are beating it, but with high cost in expendables.

These are usually the same people that run the raids using a bug, they run the raid using these bugs as much as possible, until the devs have to step in and dish out their "dev justice", thereby making the raid impossible for the average gamer.

The "skill" level of those on certain servers isn't more than those on other servers. The builds aren't that different or "game changing". So get off the high horse.

There are plenty of skilled players on all servers, so I don't buy that arguement for a second. In fact, it makes me happy to be on a server where epeen isn't that important. :rolleyes:

I am sorry for derailing the OP's orginal post with the raid talk.

Mystic none of the above comments are directed at you, I just used your quote for emphasis.

Laith
03-07-2008, 11:21 AM
I have a feeling these people "not using consumables" Are using certain "strategies" :rolleyes:, I know of that bug the **** out of the boss. :rolleyes:these people are beating shroud4 in TWO PASSES..
sure, they may ALSO be bugging the boss, but that doesn't make him go down any faster. that's serious DPS.

as mentioned all over the forums, defensive potentials aren't what really matters anymore.
it's all about how fast you can end the fight.

every time you try to run shroud4, and he flys overhead that second time: these guys are already done healing.

it's really quite easy to heal off of SP alone for 2, maybe 3 rounds. when the fight isn't over at that point though, the consumables will start burning.

Strumpoo
03-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Yep, I know defensive isn't what wins championships in this game. ;) One of my mains is a barb, and he is happy, the tanks in our guild, not so much..

We had a guildy in a PUG raid last night where the group beat the fiend in two passes, using one of these "strategies". It doesn't take much to beat him fast when just he stands there and takes a beating.

IMO if people are bugging out a raid boss, they aren't "beating" the raid, and there is absoultely nothing to brag about.. They are cheating their way through the raid, plain and simple. It is like using a "cheat code" in an Xbox game or something, sure it can be fun, but you aren't really beating the game.

Strumpoo
03-07-2008, 11:59 AM
OK. Such as?

There have been numerous discussions on what spells could easily be implemented. Do a search. Look at some of Mystic's post in this very thread and he give you some examples.



So you're saying these aren't useful spells and that we should do away with them, or that the devs should make some situations where they'd be more useful? Having the devs add more spells wouldn't solve either of these issues...

Nope, I am saying they aren't that useful in their current form. Sure Acid fog can be useful for slowing enemies down, but the damage is pathetic. Lightning is ok but, with huge hitpoint pools, you are better off with the DOT effect of firewall or the large AOE effect of Cone of Cold.

I believe I am correct in the assumption that 99.99% of casters in the game are spec'd for fire and ice damage. I would like some more damage options available. The soultion to every arcane DPS question shouldn't be Firewall, Cone of Cold, or Scorching ray.

So yes, if the devs added some other acid damage spells or lightning damage spells, it would help these issues and give us different ways to accomplish the same goals. Which leads to more character customization, which I think all agree is a good thing.

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 01:24 PM
IMO if people are bugging out a raid boss, they aren't "beating" the raid, and there is absoultely nothing to brag about..

Laith's point was that they don't need to bug the boss.

If you're killing him in two passes, it doesn't matter. On my cleric, I don't usually run out of SPs until the third or fourth pass. If they're already done at that point, it seems blazingly obvious to me that it's possible to do part 4 without using any consumables, even if you're not bugging the Pit Fiend.

Strumpoo
03-07-2008, 01:29 PM
sure, they may ALSO be bugging the boss, but that doesn't make him go down any faster. that's serious DPS.



Maybe I misunderstood this.

If so I apologize.

Cowdenicus
03-07-2008, 04:54 PM
What are you trying to say?

Eudimio
03-07-2008, 05:30 PM
What are you trying to say?

You like posting cleric stuff.

Cowdenicus
03-07-2008, 05:33 PM
You like posting cleric stuff.

Well since all of my mains are clerics well.......

Eudimio
03-07-2008, 05:38 PM
Well since all of my mains are clerics well.......

But this "derailment" isn't a horrible turn of events, right?

Gunga
03-11-2008, 01:57 PM
I was playing back up healer to one of the tanks on a shroud normal, and I used 83 heal scrolls. I do have an issue with quest design that causes you to have to use scrolls for completion, and without glitching or exploiting that is quite a challenge on some quests. Scrolls, Wands, and Mana Pots, should be for emergency use. Anti-wipe type stuff. That is not the case in ddo. I do not agree with this type of quest design. The D20 system has alot of flaws. We do not have defense like most other mmorpgs, we have AC and DR. With Elite mobs hitting AC in the 50's with ease, and no other real way to mitigate damage since dr does not stack it leads to alot of resources being used. This in my opinion is poor game design.

I enjoy this game, but I agree something should be done. The reason why other mmo's have a gameplay design of tanks, dps, support, and healer, is because it works. With AC losing its value and no real way to solidify aggro, hitpoints become king which means hitpoint recovery becomes survivability. This leads to lots of external resources being used to finish a quest.

That really does seem like a lot of scrolls for a back up healer. Were you compensating for a bad cleric or did you go in with only one cleric?

Cowdenicus
03-11-2008, 01:59 PM
That really does seem like a lot of scrolls for a back up healer. Were you compensating for a bad cleric or did you go in with only one cleric?

You should see how many scrolls I burn when running with Katet. ;)

Gunga
03-11-2008, 02:15 PM
There have been numerous discussions on what spells could easily be implemented. Do a search. Look at some of Mystic's post in this very thread and he give you some examples.

Not interested in researching your ideas in order to validate them. You brought up the point, just simply asking you to complete your thought...it doesn't need a full thread or discussion.



Nope, I am saying they aren't that useful in their current form. Sure Acid fog can be useful for slowing enemies down, but the damage is pathetic. Lightning is ok but, with huge hitpoint pools, you are better off with the DOT effect of firewall or the large AOE effect of Cone of Cold.

I believe I am correct in the assumption that 99.99% of casters in the game are spec'd for fire and ice damage. I would like some more damage options available. The soultion to every arcane DPS question shouldn't be Firewall, Cone of Cold, or Scorching ray.

So yes, if the devs added some other acid damage spells or lightning damage spells, it would help these issues and give us different ways to accomplish the same goals. Which leads to more character customization, which I think all agree is a good thing.


Have you tried to spec a character out for acid/lightning?

Gunga
03-11-2008, 02:34 PM
You should see how many scrolls I burn when running with Katet. ;)

When I'm Clericing, I like to have at least 125 scrolls with me when we want to complete (no exploits of course). Sometimes I have a bunch left, sometimes not. But I like keeping some mana around for instant full heals and res's....it's my choice. Why would you ever want to run with us if we cost you more resources than other groups? If I was running with a group that didn't hold some benefit to me (completion, chests), I'd hold onto my resources and find another group. We certainly don't want you unnecessarily wasting your hard earned plat on us, Vanash. I'll throw you some scrolls next time we roll. At least you know we'll complete.

Steiner-Davion
03-11-2008, 03:09 PM
I've been follwoing this thread quitely now for a while, and it is quite disturbing at times to hear how cavalier some poeple are abut the use of expensive scrolls being the norm. I started in head start with my Cleric, who is currently level 14 and for all intents and purposes flat broke. Due to real world obligations and constraints and what not, I had to stop playing for a few months overthe summer and I just come back to the game the week before the 2nd anniversary events kicked off.

My concerns about the state of Clerics and the game as a whole include the following:

1) I don't have enough free time that I can devote to loot running any quest to amass enough spare change to afford to buy hundreds of scrolls of Heal and what not, let alone Mana Potions on the AH, to "effectively" contribute my healing skills in the end game content. My cleric is currently lvl 14 and has 1195 Spell points when weild a simple light mace of the Magi. I do have the Invaders Healing Sceptor, but as others have pointed out several times in this thread, the enhancements available on that one piece of gear are essentially the best healing enhancements you can find on any item in game, and they do not effect the highest level heal spells available even at my level, let alone a capped out level 16 Cleric. So I ask you all how can I contribute effectively to any party in the end game and thus enjoy the game we all love so much? And just for the record, I have only 3 pieces of Raid Loot: The Hammer of Life, the Dragon Helm and the Crossbow from the Demon Queen.

2) In game currency and the ease with certain tpyes of players can amass great fortunes is ruining the game for those who cannot do so for what ever reason based upon the amount of free time they can devote to playing the game. It is the rare occurance when I'm in a group that someone hands me a stack of Cure Wands, and rarer still that someone hands me Heal Scrolls or even Rez Scrolls.

3) I'm all for the game beging challenging, I mean where is the fun if the game was a cake walk. But the simple fact that mobs have rediculously high ACs and Saves and blanket immunities in some cases, COMBINED with inflated numbers of hitpoints and unlimited mana pools is practiacally game breaking in the long run when players have to resort to "tactics" and "strategies" such as relying on Heal and Rez Scrolls to get by. The effects the casual player exponentially more so than the power gamer/player who can devote more time to being able to afford these types of strategies, wether through perfecting news ways of completing quests or being able ot afford to buy Heal and Rez Scrolls in bulk.

4) The Grind mechanism for crafting and Raid flagging introduced in mod 6 and Mod 4 respectively does absolutely nothing to reward casual players. In fact it only serves to further frustrate them, causing them to fall ever farther back on the power curve and causing them to become even less effective in the party. But, clearly Turbine has decided to focus on appeasing the power gamers and those who have nothing better to do than complain about how there is nothing to do all the time, instead of concentrating on building a game that is fun to play for any style of play.

Cowdenicus
03-11-2008, 04:35 PM
When I'm Clericing, I like to have at least 125 scrolls with me when we want to complete (no exploits of course). Sometimes I have a bunch left, sometimes not. But I like keeping some mana around for instant full heals and res's....it's my choice. Why would you ever want to run with us if we cost you more resources than other groups? If I was running with a group that didn't hold some benefit to me (completion, chests), I'd hold onto my resources and find another group. We certainly don't want you unnecessarily wasting your hard earned plat on us, Vanash. I'll throw you some scrolls next time we roll. At least you know we'll complete.

Whoa Gunga, I was just yanking your chain boss. Definitely do not take that seriously. Thats why I winked. :D

Strumpoo
03-13-2008, 02:49 PM
Not interested in researching your ideas in order to validate them. You brought up the point, just simply asking you to complete your thought...it doesn't need a full thread or discussion.

Have you tried to spec a character out for acid/lightning?

Yep, my wizard used to be lightning/acid spec'd. Until I realized that fire and cold was 10x's more effective in the game (probably at about level 10..) ;)

Acid and lightning can't hold a candle to the damage that fire/ice does, at least with the current spell selection. This is a fact, not speculation. Why would a caster throw a 150 damage lighting bolt, when for the same mana he can throw a 1000 damage fireball or firewall?


Can't remember the last time I have seen a lightning bolt, ball lightning, chain lightning, or melf's cast in a high level quest. (unless the caster was out of mana and down to his last gasp wands). Acid fog is used, yes. But that is for it's "slow down" purposes not its damage dealing abilities.