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View Full Version : Trap DCs are too high



Wizzly_Bear
03-01-2008, 04:08 PM
..

ArkoHighStar
03-01-2008, 04:23 PM
edit lvl 5 rogue is below eladrins recommended lvl for elite these days. its more like lvl 8-9 on elite, see mod 7 for rogue bonuses to trap sense

Jaywade
03-01-2008, 04:26 PM
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:fire. You roll a 12 (+21): save failure!

thats a 33, and i failed in elite stk part 3. lvl 5 rogue, boosted reflex up to 21, had fire res, tasty ham, and haste, and died.
yeah I need to go in there w/ my 16 lvl rogue and test that trap to see what the save is
but a failed 31 on a lvl 3 elite quest seems a bit out of line


edit lvl 5 rogue is below eladrins recommended lvl for elite these days. its more like lvl 8-9 on elite, see mod 7 for rogue bonuses to trap sense
well this is way out of line ...... if it's going to be a lvl 8-9 quest instead of a lvl 5 they need to re work the xp the treasure table and the fact that if you went in there w/ lvl 9 toons you would get major neg xp

ArkoHighStar
03-01-2008, 04:46 PM
yeah I need to go in there w/ my 16 lvl rogue and test that trap to see what the save is
but a failed 31 on a lvl 3 elite quest seems a bit out of line


well this is way out of line ...... if it's going to be a lvl 8-9 quest instead of a lvl 5 they need to re work the xp the treasure table and the fact that if you went in there w/ lvl 9 toons you would get major neg xp

they are increasing rogue trap sense enhancements, and are looking at the dc's, but the gist of Eladrin's comments were the level of the quest is for loot and xp only, elite is supposed to be harder than 2 levels above the quest, because it is elite. Basically now that you can g et 1750 favor without having to do any quest below on elite anymore

ArkoHighStar
03-01-2008, 04:49 PM
here is eladrin's take on this


We are, of course, watching the effects of the trap DC changes and taking into consideration both the intended and unintended consequences of the change, and may end up adjusting them (and other things) in the future.

We're also investigating some changes to how the different difficulty settings are explained, to clear up some miscommunications. A group of level 4 characters may not be able to complete a level 2 dungeon on Elite - in general, the rewards go up by 2 levels on Elite, but the difficulties of challenges go up by around 5.

Lunewann
03-01-2008, 04:50 PM
prehaps a fire protection pot might have helped also... I went into STK with my 2 fighter/3 rogue and had no problems what so ever in the trap... I also made sure I had a haste and jump pot :D

Jaywade
03-01-2008, 04:51 PM
they are increasing rogue trap sense enhancements, and are looking at the dc's, but the gist of Eladrin's comments were the level of the quest is for loot and xp only, elite is supposed to be harder than 2 levels above the quest, because it is elite. Basically now that you can g et 1750 favor without having to do any quest below on elite anymore
I know what was said I posted in that thread too...it's BS, all of a sudden a lvl5 quest is really a lvl 9 quest ...that's funny casue when you log into it it tells you it is a lvl 5 quest ...it has monsters like a lvl 5 quest xp like a lvl 5 quest but the traps have a same reflex save as the stuff in von 5??????? arko stop drinking the kool Aid

ArkoHighStar
03-01-2008, 05:05 PM
prehaps a fire protection pot might have helped also... I went into STK with my 2 fighter/3 rogue and had no problems what so ever in the trap... I also made sure I had a haste and jump pot :D

there are many things a lvl 5 rogue can use to boost

velah cake fire resist 20
fire protection potion
cats grace potion to bump dex
trap blast goggles
haste potion
jump potion
prayer
heroism potion

let me ask you a question did you try to disable the spike trap first?

Xgemina
03-01-2008, 05:30 PM
yeah I need to go in there w/ my 16 lvl rogue and test that trap to see what the save is
but a failed 31 on a lvl 3 elite quest seems a bit out of line


well this is way out of line ...... if it's going to be a lvl 8-9 quest instead of a lvl 5 they need to re work the xp the treasure table and the fact that if you went in there w/ lvl 9 toons you would get major neg xp
the bolding is mine

Actually, the 3rd part of STK is a level 5 quest, not a level 3 quest. So, on elite it is considered a level 7 quest.

Emili
03-01-2008, 06:48 PM
the bolding is mine

Actually, the 3rd part of STK is a level 5 quest, not a level 3 quest. So, on elite it is considered a level 7 quest.

However as Eladrin stated the actual intended difficulty of the quest is 5 levels higher so is suppose to be equivalent of a level 10 quest...


they are increasing rogue trap sense enhancements, and are looking at the dc's, but the gist of Eladrin's comments were the level of the quest is for loot and xp only, elite is supposed to be harder than 2 levels above the quest, because it is elite. Basically now that you can g et 1750 favor without having to do any quest below on elite anymore

... and as such the xp and loot reward lie in moot of what the intended is because a level 10 character negates both the xp and loot available in STK to be the equal of him running a level 11 quest on normal for xp or a level 9 quest on normal for loot. Therefore the only two reasons to run an elite quest around such level would be a.) favor and b.) challenge. Those are the only reward at that level. Then once people attain cap once again people run the elite 16th level quests for a.) favor and b.) loot since xp is out of the picture... challenge most likely is secondary or far from thier minds at this point - they become loot farmers for the betterment of thier builds.

The above is my personal opinion based on the observations of the general sentiment of the player community... not a concensous, but a general feel one gets from samples of the population.

Lunewann
03-01-2008, 07:04 PM
qft

and a fire prot wouldnt have helped as i went to -57 halfway through it

Ofcause they would have worked... sometimes you have to buff up using many things as ArkoHighStar mentioned there are many things you could have done. you were lvl 5 did you utilise your uncanny dodge??? Yes the DC's are high but they are not to the point where a person that is prepaired should find too many problems from them.... Ofcause things that help will be doing the elite quest at a more appropriate skill lvl for yourself if you can't tackle it on elite now then do it later... Elite means just that... ELITE if you can't cope with the burns prehaps stay out of the fire.

:D

ArkoHighStar
03-01-2008, 07:18 PM
However as Eladrin stated the actual intended difficulty of the quest is 5 levels higher so is suppose to be equivalent of a level 10 quest...



... and as such the xp and loot reward lie in moot of what the intended is because a level 10 character negates both the xp and loot available in STK to be the equal of him running a level 11 quest on normal for xp or a level 9 quest on normal for loot. Therefore the only two reasons to run an elite quest around such level would be a.) favor and b.) challenge. Those are the only reward at that level. Then once people attain cap once again people run the elite 16th level quests for a.) favor and b.) loot since xp is out of the picture... challenge most likely is secondary or far from thier minds at this point - they become loot farmers for the betterment of thier builds.

The above is my personal opinion based on the observations of the general sentiment of the player community... not a concensous, but a general feel one gets from samples of the population.

Eladrin is stating simly that if someone is expecting it to be like normal setting then then being 4-5 levels above the normal setting when doing elite should be sufficient. If you want a challenge for your character going in on elite when you are not that high will give you that challenge. He was a lvl 5 rogue in a lvl 5 quest on elite essentially lvl 7-9 difficulty, I am not sure what he was expecting

my lvl 6 4 rogue/2pally can hit a reflex save of 30 for 15 seconds with uncanny dodge so with a dc of 36 I will fail on a roll of 5 or less not bad for being 1 lvl below the lvl of the quest and 2 lvls below the devs recommended lvl.In fact if a add prayer and a luck item I hit 32 failing on a 3 or less

Emili
03-01-2008, 07:45 PM
Eladrin is stating simly that if someone is expecting it to be like normal setting then then being 4-5 levels above the normal setting when doing elite should be sufficient. If you want a challenge for your character going in on elite when you are not that high will give you that challenge. He was a lvl 5 rogue in a lvl 5 quest on elite essentially lvl 7-9 difficulty, I am not sure what he was expecting

my lvl 6 4 rogue/2pally can hit a reflex save of 30 for 15 seconds with uncanny dodge so with a dc of 36 I will fail on a roll of 5 or less not bad for being 1 lvl below the lvl of the quest and 2 lvls below the devs recommended lvl.In fact if a add prayer and a luck item I hit 32 failing on a 3 or less

Your build can do that because of the divine grace... a level 5 or 6 pure rogue is a tad more pressed to hit that number... they have trap sense II and uncanny dodge (+6), then thier dex... top mod +8 at that level to add to the base +5 at level 5 or +6 at levels 7 or 8, so the remander is in item + buff (am sure he's not running with casters sporting GH at level 5-6. A pure rogue your level would be shy of you by about +2 to +4 from what I see (10%-20%). Come level 8 rogue improved uncanny dodge sets in and thus makes a larger difference. So is it that we're at the point where all good rogues should splash pally? Is that what you're saying?

Hvymetal
03-02-2008, 05:59 AM
Your build can do that because of the divine grace... a level 5 or 6 pure rogue is a tad more pressed to hit that number... they have trap sense II and uncanny dodge (+6), then thier dex... top mod +8 at that level to add to the base +5 at level 5 or +6 at levels 7 or 8, so the remander is in item + buff (am sure he's not running with casters sporting GH at level 5-6. A pure rogue your level would be shy of you by about +2 to +4 from what I see (10%-20%). Come level 8 rogue improved uncanny dodge sets in and thus makes a larger difference. So is it that we're at the point where all good rogues should splash pally? Is that what you're saying? Apparently if you wish to be able to do low level Elite quests, might not have a Cleric strapped to your.... um behind for buffs.... and are not carrying a apocothary in your pack then yes, otherwise twinked toons need only apply.........

Chelsa
03-02-2008, 10:56 AM
Yet another post about traps.

My only complaint is they didn't make this change earlier. Now elite means elite and I think that is great.:D

Kaldaka
03-02-2008, 11:18 AM
Yet another post about traps.

My only complaint is they didn't make this change earlier. Now elite means elite and I think that is great.:D

Elite doesn't mean elite bro.

Only the trap save DCs are elite by your standards.

They need to change WAY more than trap save DCs for elite to be elite as you state. In this same quest in the OP, how about hobbie mobs with a 45 AC and 400 hp? Or hobbie arcanes with chain lightning? Or hobbie clerics spamming the Heal spell on the mobs? That would be elite if you ask me.

You can't just change ONE thing and say 'now its elite'. Give me a break.

Raithe
03-02-2008, 05:40 PM
Just got through helping a random PUG for elite "And the Dead Shall Rise" on my caster. What a joke.

The rogue, because he was attempting to disarm them and didn't have the proper concentration, died twice to the traps. He was a level 16 character with 12 levels of rogue (which means he probably had improved evasion). In contrast, a fighter in the group ran right into the traps several times, but only took damage once and survived it. The rest of us? We all had jump and haste and cleared every single trap with a huge margin for error.

My points? Well...

1) Traps are designed very poorly if bouncing like a bunny through a dungeon usually makes them a non-issue.
2) There are problems with trap implementation programming if characters that run right through don't get hurt.
3) A level 16 dex/evasion character in a level 11 (16 on elite) dungeon shouldn't be too worried about making reflex saves.

Muhoshin
03-12-2008, 12:07 PM
Part of the general intended trap design is that any trap you must go through to complete a quest can be nullified without a rogue. While they may have screwed up a few times, by and large the only times a trap is deadly enough to kill someone is if they stop in the middle of it or it's in an optional area.

Quest chains get to ignore this rule, as do raids, but other than that, it largely holds true.

Aspenor
03-12-2008, 12:14 PM
Figure out how to get through the trap without getting hit by the fire jets.

I make it through all the time never being forced to make a save at all.