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Tanka
02-29-2008, 08:50 PM
(Combat): You attempt to save versus hamstring. You roll a 10 (+31): save!
(Combat): You attempt to save versus improved trip. You roll a 10 (+11): strength success!

I got this in one hit from one of the dogs out in the Desert.

If we can't combine tactical feats, how come they can?

GuitarHero
02-29-2008, 11:31 PM
/dog-godmode

KIELBASEE555
03-01-2008, 07:20 AM
(Combat): You attempt to save versus hamstring. You roll a 10 (+31): save!
(Combat): You attempt to save versus improved trip. You roll a 10 (+11): strength success!

I got this in one hit from one of the dogs out in the Desert.

If we can't combine tactical feats, how come they can?

OH but that is the challenge. monsters are always over kill, your not worried about the trolls who crit hit 3 times in a row?
i have always hated the various monsters who can be in front of you and then slide around and be behind you in a fraction of a second.
I'm getting tired of the monsters who just can NOT stand still and fight. i want a monster who dose not have a lot of offense but is a solid block of adamantine. you have to have 4 fighter types stand fighting for ever trying to beet it down. IF you have been in the vales or shroud, have you noticed that there are NOT a lot of places where you can fighter shield block and and magic offence anymore.

Eladrin
03-01-2008, 08:37 AM
If we can't combine tactical feats, how come they can?
Doggie Bone of Vertigo +10.

Laprion
03-01-2008, 08:46 AM
fiendish lions in C Hills for some where people are meant to be able to solo 1-4 they are hard

Beherit_Baphomar
03-01-2008, 08:50 AM
OH but that is the challenge. monsters are always over kill, your not worried about the trolls who crit hit 3 times in a row?
i have always hated the various monsters who can be in front of you and then slide around and be behind you in a fraction of a second.
I'm getting tired of the monsters who just can NOT stand still and fight. i want a monster who dose not have a lot of offense but is a solid block of adamantine. you have to have 4 fighter types stand fighting for ever trying to beet it down. IF you have been in the vales or shroud, have you noticed that there are NOT a lot of places where you can fighter shield block and and magic offence anymore.

I gotta say "huh?"

You want a less animated enemy?? You want the game to be more simplistic?!?
/not signed.

Yeah, ogres with their jumpieswingiehitchathreetimesoopsyerdead isn't fair, but really, is it a fair fight? There is six of us beating
on that one ogre...pfft I say.

As for the dogs....here's the scenario. Dog see's you, dogs hungry and would like a bit of face for tea. He rans atcha, jumps,
*munchteethteethmunch* Right there is the hamstring. Now, some dogs can weigh upwards of 100lbs. Im thinking the dogs
we fight are not Yorkshire terriers. So when he hits you, his whole weight is behind that hit. Right there is yer trip.

BrotherAsmodi
03-01-2008, 09:01 AM
I'm getting tired of the monsters who just can NOT stand still and fight.

Do you stand still and not move whaen you fight? Pretty poor tactic to just beat on each other blow-for-blow. You probably believe that its better to have high hp and not worry about AC. That is one of the big problems with DDO, tif a character did that in PnP the DM would laugh and beat them down. Conbat shouldn't be static it should be fluid and changing and require yiu to think about how to win rather than just using cookie-cutter-tactic.


IF you have been in the vales or shroud, have you noticed that there are NOT a lot of places where you can fighter shield block and and magic offence anymore.

GOOD! shield blocking is a cheep cookie cutter tactic that works because of the pathing mechanics in a video game. Try that in real life, odds are you will be able to find a way around. Try protecting your casters while they are casting rather than exploiting a programminc issue.

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 09:09 AM
Doggie Bone of Vertigo +10.

You're looking for Of Tendon Slice (5%).


You guys still haven't made vertigo even remotely useful. ;)

Zenako
03-01-2008, 09:33 AM
Do you stand still and not move whaen you fight? Pretty poor tactic to just beat on each other blow-for-blow. You probably believe that its better to have high hp and not worry about AC. That is one of the big problems with DDO, tif a character did that in PnP the DM would laugh and beat them down. Conbat shouldn't be static it should be fluid and changing and require yiu to think about how to win rather than just using cookie-cutter-tactic.


Haven't seen a Dwarven Defender/Deep Warden in play much in PnP D&D then have you. Immoviable object...none shall pass. :D

Seriously thou, in DDO, you gotta keep moving, the mobs do...unless they are Portals or Jellos...or characters standing in the way of an oncoing Prismatic Wall and going, wow, what is that.....sorch!!!!!! oh...i'm dead...what happened:confused:

rihi133
03-01-2008, 09:47 AM
For about a few thousand years the shield block was an effective combat tool. Do we remember the Greek Phalanx or a the Roman sheild wall. The use of a sheild is a good tactic, execpt in DDO because you still take damage when you block. Also the trip on dogs and cats in the game is stupid. Just a lazy way for the DEV to make the game harder. Jumping around like a jake rabbit on a stove is a video game tactic.

Ro-Longo
03-01-2008, 10:14 AM
Doggie Bone of Vertigo +10.

How about a real answer. We don't ned you to TRY to be funny.

Eladrin
03-01-2008, 11:00 AM
How about a real answer. We don't ned you to TRY to be funny.
I figured "weapon of <effect>" was an easy way to get the point across, but I guess you didn't catch the intent.

"Players can very easily have multiple effects proc off of a single attack, especially if they have weapons with effects built-in to them. So can monsters. If you have a puncturing heavy pick, for instance, when you sunder an enemy, it can still produce that puncturing effect."


Also the trip on dogs and cats in the game is stupid
War dogs and wolves receive trip attacks on successful bites in pen and paper D&D, which is why we brought it over.

Large cats typically get free grapples and rakes, but as we do not have grapple mechanics, they were replaced by knockdown.

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 11:05 AM
I figured "weapon of <effect>" was an easy way to get the point across, but I guess you didn't catch the intent.


Except that vertigo doesn't trip anyone.

;)

Tanka
03-01-2008, 11:07 AM
I didn't stand around long enough to check, but it's always been my experience that they can attempt a Hamstring and Trip every attack, with no cooldown.

I understand about casters not having a mana pool, but cooldowns for certain things should be universal. Tactical feats being one of those things.

Eladrin
03-01-2008, 11:15 AM
Except that vertigo doesn't trip anyone.

;)
Yeah, I know, I meant tendon slice. :)

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 11:21 AM
Yeah, I know, I meant tendon slice. :)

Since we have you here..

Why don't you guys change vertigo and shatter? They're completely worthless now that you've nerfed strategy builds by disallowing combat tactics on rednames.

What fighter is going to give up a +5 weapon enhancement just to trip better?

Tanka
03-01-2008, 11:23 AM
What fighter is going to give up a +5 weapon enhancement just to trip better?
The kind that uses a Tenderizer and hits just fine without a +5 weapon enhancement, thankyouverymuch?

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 11:25 AM
The kind that uses a Tenderizer and hits just fine without a +5 weapon enhancement, thankyouverymuch?

...

Tenderizer HAS a +5 enhancement.

AND it's weighted... which, if you'll look, I didn't mention in my post because it's already been upgraded.

It's like a min level 20 item... you shouldn't compare raid loot to static drops.

Tanka
03-01-2008, 11:28 AM
...

Tenderizer HAS a +5 enhancement.

AND it's weighted... which, if you'll look, I didn't mention in my post because it's already been upgraded.

It's like a min level 20 item... you shouldn't compare raid loot to static drops.
It's the same idea. What I mean is that with a DC27 I still trip stuff on Elite. You just gotta pick things that aren't melee classes to trip/stun. Go for the casters, since they have the lower stats and saves.

Yes, Tenderizer has a +5 Enhancement bonus. So how about, hmm... +1 Shocking Burst Greataxe of Pure Good? You can still trip a caster just as easily with that.

Tactical Feats are called Tactical Feats for a reason. You've gotta use Tactics when applying them, and not just spamming them for the fun of it when your timer is up.

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 11:47 AM
It's the same idea. What I mean is that with a DC27 I still trip stuff on Elite. You just gotta pick things that aren't melee classes to trip/stun. Go for the casters, since they have the lower stats and saves.

Yes, Tenderizer has a +5 Enhancement bonus. So how about, hmm... +1 Shocking Burst Greataxe of Pure Good? You can still trip a caster just as easily with that.

Tactical Feats are called Tactical Feats for a reason. You've gotta use Tactics when applying them, and not just spamming them for the fun of it when your timer is up.

It's not the same idea.

Weighted 5% gives a stunning blow 5% of the time, while giving a +10 DC to your stunning blow attempts.

What does shatter give you? +10 to sunder attempts? That no one uses anyway because destruction is an on-hit effect.

I'm arguing that shatter and vertigo are useless. You're coming back over the top with... no weighted is nice.

It's all a pretty much moot point anyway. I'm not sure that there's anyway of upgrading shatter and vertigo to a point that they'd be useful without overpowering them in the process. The only enemies people take the time to debuff now are purple names because they're the only enemies that last long enough to matter.

You could probably turn Vertigo into a trip on hit effect with a DC based on the increment, and I probably wouldn't use it. It might be nice for support characters, but the dominant force that is DPS makes non-DPS enhancements niche.

I'm realy not sure what could make my tactician build ever unequip the SoS.

Mad_Bombardier
03-01-2008, 11:50 AM
"Players can very easily have multiple effects proc off of a single attack, especially if they have weapons with effects built-in to them. So can monsters. If you have a puncturing heavy pick, for instance, when you sunder an enemy, it can still produce that puncturing effect."But, that's a bad example because weapon % effects are automatic, are they not? So, unless someone has outfitted the animal with a mouthpiece of Tendonslice that happens to process with their Improved Trip, they should not be getting two effects in one hit. These are animals, not baddies with weapons. And even if it was a baddie with a weapon, the effect would be % to process and automatic, not save based. Right? (based on weighted as an automatic stun with no save, just % chance to process.)

It makes more sense to me to have a Lion get Hamstring with it's bite attack and Trip with it's claw attack (or vice versa). Two separate attack rolls, two separate combat feats within the same attack chain. Oh, and on a real 10sec timer so it can't do the same thing 3 seconds later in it's next attack chain (1 out of 3 combos with combat feats would be about right).

P.S. When will players get Improved Hamstring like the Rogues in the Orchard? I want to be able to Trip and Hamstring at the same time!

Tanka
03-01-2008, 11:53 AM
What I'm saying is you don't need a Vertigo 10 or Shatter 10 weapon to effectively use Trip and Sunder. People think they do, but they're dead wrong. You just need to be more selective on which targets you Trip (and Sunder, which as you said nobody uses, and you're right).

It is the same idea. There isn't a need to equip a Vertigo 10 weapon. They're just a useless suffix that nobody uses unless the prefix is good.

If you want Vertigo changed then they also need to change Finesse, Power, and several other weapon mods that nobody likes/uses because of their inherently limited ability to do anything that the character using it can already do naturally.

Solmage
03-01-2008, 11:56 AM
I'm realy not sure what could make my tactician build ever unequip the SoS.


How about a 2 minute cooldown use on healing scrolls, 30 second cooldown on healing wand uses, and 20-30 seconds cooldown on healing spells, with larger cooldowns for the BIG spells?

Then, maybe, just maybe, people would learn to play without a nanybot cleric and give them reasons to trip, stun, sap and not break crowd controls.

(Currently the reasons exist, but since it's not THEM that get to pay for the 50 heal scrolls for clerics and mana potions, hey, who cares right, I'm teh-uba with my neato two handed sword, why would I ever use a weapon that stops me from getting damged?! Oh and my repair bill is too high! But .. hum.. that's like YOUR fault devs!)

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 12:01 PM
How about a 2 minute cooldown use on healing scrolls, 30 second cooldown on healing wand uses, and 20-30 seconds cooldown on healing spells, with larger cooldowns for the BIG spells?

Then, maybe, just maybe, people would learn to play without a nanybot cleric and give them reasons to trip, stun, sap and not break crowd controls.

(Currently the reasons exist, but since it's not THEM that get to pay for the 50 heal scrolls for clerics and mana potions, hey, who cares right, I'm teh-uba with my neato two handed sword, why would I ever use a weapon that stops me from getting damged?! Oh and my repair bill is too high! But .. hum.. that's like YOUR fault devs!)

I can trip, stun and shatter with the SoS.

Besides... I don't play with a nannybot cleric. But it seems like you have some issues to work out. Why don't you just not use consumables?

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 12:02 PM
What I'm saying is you don't need a Vertigo 10 or Shatter 10 weapon to effectively use Trip and Sunder. People think they do, but they're dead wrong. You just need to be more selective on which targets you Trip (and Sunder, which as you said nobody uses, and you're right).

It is the same idea. There isn't a need to equip a Vertigo 10 weapon. They're just a useless suffix that nobody uses unless the prefix is good.

If you want Vertigo changed then they also need to change Finesse, Power, and several other weapon mods that nobody likes/uses because of their inherently limited ability to do anything that the character using it can already do naturally.

That's my whole point. Vertigo is useless. Hence... why it should be changed like tendon slice and weighted were.

Dark_Helmet
03-01-2008, 01:25 PM
I gotta say "huh?"

You want a less animated enemy?? You want the game to be more simplistic?!?
/not signed.

Yeah, ogres with their jumpieswingiehitchathreetimesoopsyerdead isn't fair, but really, is it a fair fight? There is six of us beating
on that one ogre...pfft I say.

As for the dogs....here's the scenario. Dog see's you, dogs hungry and would like a bit of face for tea. He rans atcha, jumps,
*munchteethteethmunch* Right there is the hamstring. Now, some dogs can weigh upwards of 100lbs. Im thinking the dogs
we fight are not Yorkshire terriers. So when he hits you, his whole weight is behind that hit. Right there is yer trip.

But this is based on PnP which has NO facing. They targetted spells for an individual should still go off since there is NO FACING. The only thing going "behind" should be getting flank when having another ally on other side of the same enemy.

Shade
03-01-2008, 02:30 PM
But, that's a bad example because weapon % effects are automatic, are they not? So, unless someone has outfitted the animal with a mouthpiece of Tendonslice that happens to process with their Improved Trip, they should not be getting two effects in one hit. These are animals, not baddies with weapons. And even if it was a baddie with a weapon, the effect would be % to process and automatic, not save based. Right? (based on weighted as an automatic stun with no save, just % chance to process.)

No no see, he had it slightly off.

Dogs have the ultra improved trip feat, its the same as ours only its +6 to trip and has no cooldown. So they use it on every pounce-type attack.

That particular dog also used a tendon slice 100% bone lol... So we could do the same, just we need 100% tendon slice weapons and ultra improved trip feats.

Possible on a rogue with some luck tho actually.. Get the shining cresents (its got veritigo and tendon slice and adamantine on a rogue finesse wepaon) and do some trips with that, youll eventually tendon slice and trip at teh same time.. And tendon slice is pretty much the same as hamstring currently.

Zuldar
03-01-2008, 02:38 PM
Seeing as wolves and what not get a free attempt to trip after a successful bite attack, I'd say it's working as intended.

What's happening is the dog is using hamstring, then if it successfully hits you he gets a free attempt to trip you. It's all per pnp.

Jaywade
03-01-2008, 06:03 PM
It's not the same idea.

Weighted 5% gives a stunning blow 5% of the time, while giving a +10 DC to your stunning blow attempts.

What does shatter give you? +10 to sunder attempts? That no one uses anyway because destruction is an on-hit effect.

I'm arguing that shatter and vertigo are useless. You're coming back over the top with... no weighted is nice.

It's all a pretty much moot point anyway. I'm not sure that there's anyway of upgrading shatter and vertigo to a point that they'd be useful without overpowering them in the process. The only enemies people take the time to debuff now are purple names because they're the only enemies that last long enough to matter.

You could probably turn Vertigo into a trip on hit effect with a DC based on the increment, and I probably wouldn't use it. It might be nice for support characters, but the dominant force that is DPS makes non-DPS enhancements niche.

I'm realy not sure what could make my tactician build ever unequip the SoS.


would like to chime in w/ a few thoughts on this topic...

quick back ground on me

I ran a human (before 32pt builds were here) tatics fighter (Sass) loved playing him could trip anything loved TS (he could hit the balckguards when that was a problem for a lot of folks) was a ton of fun to play ....then came the first trip nerf (before the red named nerf) all of a sudden he couldn't trip half as well...put sass on the shelf, 32 pt builds come out I build a dwarf tatic fighter w/ 32 pt builds...hsc is a triping manchine Wiz king was great I would trip him we win I could trip the golem in von 5 folks would go wow ..neat...then the red name nerf..... me very un happy with dev's still can trip most things but barbs/sorc kill so fast I ask myself why ????? <and then roll up 32pt sorc's and barb :) >

I think trip's are still viable, I've been running H's in the vale can land trips on most mobs that are able to trip, works really well on the othran's and devils...stun is better but trip is still viable I usely target teh first caster for trip then stun and kill the second one and come back to the still tripped one.....sunder never use it...and if you want to try a tatic's build you have to go WF or Dwarf....

bobbryan2
03-01-2008, 06:21 PM
would like to chime in w/ a few thoughts on this topic...

quick back ground on me

I ran a human (before 32pt builds were here) tatics fighter (Sass) loved playing him could trip anything loved TS (he could hit the balckguards when that was a problem for a lot of folks) was a ton of fun to play ....then came the first trip nerf (before the red named nerf) all of a sudden he couldn't trip half as well...put sass on the shelf, 32 pt builds come out I build a dwarf tatic fighter w/ 32 pt builds...hsc is a triping manchine Wiz king was great I would trip him we win I could trip the golem in von 5 folks would go wow ..neat...then the red name nerf..... me very un happy with dev's still can trip most things but barbs/sorc kill so fast I ask myself why ????? <and then roll up 32pt sorc's and barb :) >

I think trip's are still viable, I've been running H's in the vale can land trips on most mobs that are able to trip, works really well on the othran's and devils...stun is better but trip is still viable I usely target teh first caster for trip then stun and kill the second one and come back to the still tripped one.....sunder never use it...and if you want to try a tatic's build you have to go WF or Dwarf....


I still run my tactician dwarf every once in a while. Tactical feats were the only thing seperating fighters from barbarians and paladins for a while. There just weren't enough feats in the game to warrant that as a big advantage.

So, when tactics got nerfed... I had to slowly turn to a more DPS oriented build. And I think I accomplished that as well as one can without completely rerolling. I still have maxed out tactical enhancement lines (because what else is a fighter going to spend them on) and it works well enough I suppose.

But... that really has nothing to do with shatter and vertigo on weapons. Those are useless. I'm not saying trip is. I wasn't saying that sunder is either (though I will say that if someone asks).

I can't even believe improved sunder is a feat. :) Definately one of those monster only feats.

Brianius
03-01-2008, 06:35 PM
all i gotta say about the shield blocking being a cookie cutter tactic
two words- 300 thermopolie

Emili
03-01-2008, 07:20 PM
I still run my tactician dwarf every once in a while. Tactical feats were the only thing seperating fighters from barbarians and paladins for a while. There just weren't enough feats in the game to warrant that as a big advantage.

So, when tactics got nerfed... I had to slowly turn to a more DPS oriented build. And I think I accomplished that as well as one can without completely rerolling. I still have maxed out tactical enhancement lines (because what else is a fighter going to spend them on) and it works well enough I suppose.

But... that really has nothing to do with shatter and vertigo on weapons. Those are useless. I'm not saying trip is. I wasn't saying that sunder is either (though I will say that if someone asks).

I can't even believe improved sunder is a feat. :) Definately one of those monster only feats.


I wonder if the puppies took the pre-reqs Int 13, Combat Expertise. ;) My usually tactic with such things is to not stand there letting them hit me... pull out a paralyzer if you're just standing still otherwise move around to avoid getting hit. Oh yes, Like you I still hit a tactical key now and then but it deffinately is not anyway close to be what it used to be... due to timers, casters and other things a tactician is a shadow of one's former self. IMO, I believe you did the right thing by focusing DPS as I have done so a while back... I still feel lucky when I land the occasional trip or stun but it's a drop in the bucket compared to what other classes may do via spell or feat.

Arundil
03-03-2008, 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro-Longo View Post
How about a real answer. We don't ned you to TRY to be funny.

I figured "weapon of <effect>" was an easy way to get the point across, but I guess you didn't catch the intent.

"Players can very easily have multiple effects proc off of a single attack, especially if they have weapons with effects built-in to them. So can monsters. If you have a puncturing heavy pick, for instance, when you sunder an enemy, it can still produce that puncturing effect."

I enjoyed the humor.

I've also had to train large dogs to NOT try and knock people down.

Also, where can my dwarf get a doggie bone of vertigo +10?

tihocan
03-03-2008, 11:16 AM
What fighter is going to give up a +5 weapon enhancement just to trip better?
The kind who can hotkey different weapons and switch during a fight.

Laith
03-03-2008, 11:23 AM
Also, where can my dwarf get a doggie bone of vertigo +10?my ranger is also interested. :D

Razvan
03-03-2008, 12:14 PM
War dogs and wolves receive trip attacks on successful bites in pen and paper D&D, which is why we brought it over.




I didn't stand around long enough to check, but it's always been my experience that they can attempt a Hamstring and Trip every attack, with no cooldown.




Since they get trip attacks on SUCCESSFUL bites they don't need cooldowns, do they?...And if they have a tendon slice weapon as well, they don't need cooldowns for that either, do they??..

Mad_Bombardier
03-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Since they get trip attacks on SUCCESSFUL bites they don't need cooldowns, do they?...And if they have a tendon slice weapon as well, they don't need cooldowns for that either, do they??..I'll give you automatic trips on Bite attacks. But, will not concede to simultaneous automatic Hamstring. Tendon Slice weapons are &#37; chance to process between 1 and 5% with no save. Not 100% on successful attack, with save, and with no cooldown.

dameron
03-03-2008, 03:59 PM
GOOD! shield blocking is a cheep cookie cutter tactic that works because of the pathing mechanics in a video game. Try that in real life, odds are you will be able to find a way around. Try protecting your casters while they are casting rather than exploiting a programminc issue.

If anything tower shields are underpowered in DDO.



This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.


What does cover provide in PnP?



Total Cover

If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.


You're trading -2 to hit for +2 to AC (so it's like mini combat expertise) and taking on a Max Dex Bonus of +2 and a rather massive Armor Check Penalty. Without the option for total cover it's much lamer than in PnP.

Plus, as other's have mentioned, there's a core prestige class (the Dwarven Defender) that's pretty much based on standing still and plugging up holes.

Alavatar
03-03-2008, 06:39 PM
all i gotta say about the shield blocking being a cookie cutter tactic
two words- 300 thermopolie

Just an FYI off topic, but the battle of Thermopolie was a bit different then what was portrayed in 300. For instance, there were more Spartans and other Greeks, less Persians, more armor on the Greeks and less armor on the Persians.

Hvymetal
03-04-2008, 06:10 AM
Just an FYI off topic, but the battle of Thermopolie was a bit different then what was portrayed in 300. For instance, there were more Spartans and other Greeks, less Persians, more armor on the Greeks and less armor on the Persians.
Well, also the most common form a Greek armor at the time was made from layers of stiffened linen rather than Bronze being all that common.... (not everyone could affored a Bronze breastplate back in the day, and there was no such thing as standard issue uniform).