PDA

View Full Version : Hybrids



Gorbadoc
02-29-2008, 10:39 AM
I just built a TWF finessed rogue, and while I like his live-dangerously/sporadic-dps play style, I think I prefer my first character, a halfling spellsinger rapier+shield finessed. I think one of the key differences is the fact that, as a bard in combat, I'm not just choosing how to hit the monster (as a fighter does) or which spell to zap the monster with (as a wizard does) or how to distribute the healing (as a cleric does); I have to choose whether to attack or cast an offensive spell or heal. Granted, I'm mediocre at all the aforementioned tasks, but I can do them in a pinch, and I get some awesome buffing abilities.

All that said, I will at some point want to build another support character. There's nothing wrong with my bard or rogue; I'll just want some variety. I'm looking for suggestions and/or builds. I could throw together most possible pairs of classes and make something that could do a variety of stuff, but it would probably feel gimped at medium to high levels if not built with a particular specialty in mind. That seems to be the way this game works-- pick one or two things to do extremely well, and dump everything you can (money, feats, enhancements...) into those one or two things.

What are my options here? I considered rolling a pure ranger, as such a character could be good at combat and yet able to do a little bit of healing and buffing, but I suspect there's a more exciting hybrid build out there. My only other criteria are that it can't be a dwarf (for aesthetic reasons) and it can't play exactly the same as my bard.

Dariun
02-29-2008, 11:08 AM
Multiclass drow rogue can be a very versatile character. A little tricky to build, and might not be able to do all of the toughest traps in the game on elite (but probably could if you really wanted too, but you'd have to sacrifice versatility).

I have one that I've never gotten past level 8, but he is a good character (my main is a rogue, and I got bored of playing a rogue as one of my alts as well).

He is 2 fighter/2 paladin and the rest rogue.

I don't remember the starting stats exactly, but I know I took a 16 CHA, 14 INT, and 17 DEX and no stat below 10.

For feats I know I took skill focus: UMD, toughness, weapon finesse. I also took repeating crossbow, but there is no real reason to do that if you don't want to.

With the high CHA he has good UMD and a nice saves boost from his paladin aura (which makes up for poor rogue will/fort saves). He also has a Lay On Hands that comes in handy for a quick burst of healing.

With the fighter levels he gets 2 feats and the toughness enhancement.

I think of him as a rogue who just happens to be have more hitpoints, better saves, better combat ability, and more feats than other rogues, and I've played him as both a support character and as a front line fighter, depending on mission and group.

Gorbadoc
02-29-2008, 04:58 PM
I actually thought about rerolling my rogue to support a two-level paladin splash, and while that would give me much better defensive abilities, the character would still play almost exactly the same-- dance in and out of combat as I lose and draw aggro (or step back, pull out a bow, turn on auto-attack, and occasionally tap my hotkey for selecting nearest), and when the combat is over, the trap-monkey skills come out so we can proceed and not disembowel ourselves. Incidentally, do you ever find yourself missing the extra sneak attack damage?

I'm a little suspicious of the fact that you haven't pushed your fighter/rogue past level 8, but I've seen similar builds specced to 14, so it's probably okay. Still, as long as the rogue skills are so gimpy, is there another class worth mixing with fighter (or paladin or barbarian or some types of ranger)?

In my analysis, the bard has an unfair advantage over would-be versatile hybrid builds in that bards come with the mediocre combat, casting, and wand-use skills built right in, but they also come with some of the best buffs in the game. I guess that's the challenge I'm pitching-- find or design me a character that is at least half as versatile as the bard, and yet still an asset to the group at mid to high levels.

Tallyn
02-29-2008, 05:59 PM
I actually thought about rerolling my rogue to support a two-level paladin splash, and while that would give me much better defensive abilities, the character would still play almost exactly the same-- dance in and out of combat as I lose and draw aggro (or step back, pull out a bow, turn on auto-attack, and occasionally tap my hotkey for selecting nearest), and when the combat is over, the trap-monkey skills come out so we can proceed and not disembowel ourselves. Incidentally, do you ever find yourself missing the extra sneak attack damage?

I'm a little suspicious of the fact that you haven't pushed your fighter/rogue past level 8, but I've seen similar builds specced to 14, so it's probably okay. Still, as long as the rogue skills are so gimpy, is there another class worth mixing with fighter (or paladin or barbarian or some types of ranger)?

In my analysis, the bard has an unfair advantage over would-be versatile hybrid builds in that bards come with the mediocre combat, casting, and wand-use skills built right in, but they also come with some of the best buffs in the game. I guess that's the challenge I'm pitching-- find or design me a character that is at least half as versatile as the bard, and yet still an asset to the group at mid to high levels.

I'm playing a Drow Rogue 14/Paladin 2... I love it

Paladin gives you all the martial weapons and shields, so it opens quite a bit of versatility for you.

You can fight Two Weapon (if you take the feats of course). You can fight with Weapon and Shield. If you feel like ranging you can due to usually having a good dex. Have good charisma for high saves. If you keep your con score high and get a greater false life item you're not squishy. Also with a good UMD (boosted by the fact you have a good cha) you can fulfill a lot of support roles to help the party.

Truth be told, if you really wanted to try out rogue, but love Bard, maybe you should try a Rogue/Bard hybrid. They both have lots of skill points, and some of the abilities of the Bard will help out a Rogue quite a bit. I'd template it out to perfection before you actually start playing it though.

Tallyn
02-29-2008, 06:12 PM
The other character that would be as versatile and useful to the group as a Bard is a well built (and played) battle Cleric in my opinion.

Now you are probably getting the bad image of a battle Cleric in your head right now.... dispel it. These are bad players. I have a battle Cleric in my guild and he is awesome. To play a battle Cleric well you have to be paying attention... to the health of group members, what you are fighting, and whether casting an offensive spell would be more beneficial than just meleeing. Benefits of a battle cleric:

You can heal very well
You get great buffs
You can melee extremely well
You get great offensive spell capability (Slay Living, Destruction, Cometfall)
You get some decent crowd control (Command, Greater Command)
You get possibly one of the best persistent damage spells in game (Blade Barrier)

The only difficulty I find in battle clerics is the limited selection of feats they get. You already stated no to dwarves, but human would be a very viable choice in this case, giving you an extra feat and allowing you to utilize a +1 to strength and a +1 to wisdom. It would be a tough choice but some of the feats to consider would be:

Improved Critical
Power Attack
Extend Spell
Empower Healing Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Heighten Spell
Toughness

Aesop
02-29-2008, 06:18 PM
I like my 9Rogue/4Fighter/3Paladin... but I really can't wait for 10 Rogue honestly... I'm missing my Improved Evasion.

The plan through20 is 13 Rogue/4 fighter/3 pal

Weapon Spec and enough in my DD Search and all other skills that I have never had to roll a DD twice and the only time I've ever failed to locate a trap box was when I forgot my Search Goggles... Silly Silly Rogue.

only a 28 Dex and a 24 Strength right now... lookin at a 28 Strength by level 20 (if I can get the tomes for it)
Charisma is breaking 20 right now and Int is a 26... or 28 I forget now

Can buff my AC to low 50s (no raid gear as of yet) before Improved Uncanny Dodge.

when the dice don't hate me and I can roll higher than a 4 I can throw Heals GH True Seeing and all the others with decent return and I pull aggro off of raged out Barbs if I'm not careful... and if I do I have Diplo and Bluff.

I have about 270 HP without Greater False Life and no Con Tomes used (yet). Hoping to remedy that soon and break 300.

She is Drow and she is Shortsword Specced... I know rapiers have a better crit range but she like the dang Shortswrds... same with my twf ranger.

Hoping that someday (near level 20 say) that I'll break a 22 Con.

Its one of my favorite builds so far. I could be more damage specced I know but for now she's all I need

Aesop

Dariun
02-29-2008, 09:47 PM
II'm a little suspicious of the fact that you haven't pushed your fighter/rogue past level 8

Don't be. My main character is only level 12 and I rolled him in april 2006. The problem isn't with the characters, it is with me...

That said, my advice shouldn't be trusted for elite end game content, because I haven't played it and have little interest in it. I mostly play in a static group of 4, so versatility is very important to me. With a group of 4, the "rogue" can't just stand in the back and plink arrows at things and wait for a trap to prove his worth. I have to be right in the front keeping monsters away from the cleric and wizard, dishing out damage, staying on my feet, and then helping to heal (and res if the cleric goes down).

With a 12 rogue/2 fighter/ 2 paladin or 11 rogue/2 fighter/3 paladin you should be able to do 98% of traps in the game even on elite, kick butt in combat, help with healing, and stay alive. You'll have improved evasion and 6d6 sneak attacks. You will have max ranks in all important rogue skills. You will not have access to the highest level rogue skill enhancements, but, frankly, they are so expensive only the most dedicated trap monkeys will take them anyway.

The extra sneak attack damage isn't as important as extra survivability, because if you are dead, you do no sneak attacks. The biggest problem I had with my main character (human, rogue 11/fighter 1) through level 10 was surviving. At level 10 I started trying to rebuild him (because I refused to reroll him), so I switched Dodge for Toughness, took Fighter at lvl 11, took the fighter toughness enhancement and Improved Critical Piercing feat, and then took Toughness again at lvl 12. I'm much happier with him now. He's better at staying alive and kicks more butt.

If I would reroll my main, I would either go with the alt I already have (drow rog/fght/pal) or a drow rog/ranger/pal. I didn't do ranger on my alt cause I didn't want TWF (which I have on my main).

Now, if you wanted a "max sneak attack" pure rogue assassin type build, you could certainly do one, but I can't help you much (expect to tell you that even there you are better off splashing at least 1 figher level and that dwarf is the best race for it).

As for other rogue multiclass combos, there are some great ones. I think rogue/paladin is a good mix alone or with 1 other class as long as you have at least 14 base CHA. The rogue will saves can be a real weakness, and the paladin levels and CHA bonus really help there (plus UMD is a great skill). Rogue/paladin/ranger could be great. Rogue/bard is a good combo (mostly bard would be best, I think). Rogue/wizard (mostly wizard) can also work well.

Dariun
02-29-2008, 09:54 PM
as long as the rogue skills are so gimpy

BTW, this has been debated endlessly, and I don't have the patience for it again, but if you do the math, a rogue with 1 or 2 levels of another class will be at worst off by 1 skill point vs. a fully skill spec'd pure rogue. And, for 99% of builds, the rogue with 2 levels of another class will have the same exact skills for the ones that matter (search, disable, umd, spot, open), so calling them "gimpy" is really not accurate.

When you start splashing 3-5 levels of another class the skills can suffer a few points, but still be good enough for most of the game.

That said, multiclass rogues do best when they are well planned in advance.

Hasteclicky
02-29-2008, 11:14 PM
Just wanted to put this out there from experience. i run an 11 rog/2 fighter/3 pally and i have yet to fail a trap even on elite. i also don't use my boost for anything but umd. now i've only done rainbow on elite in the new content and have yet to do maze of madness in GH, but I feel that the mix is great for both combat and trap skills. i did start with an 18 int, but only took the enhancements required for way of the mechanic and a couple extras in spot, so i guess my point is i don't feel you have to sacrifice too much in order to combat well. keep in mind however that does include all higher end gear, but if u can land it u can respec and still cover the traps. minus the Cabal elite trap of course. Overall i would say u'd be very happy with the build as it has a nice healing, umd, combat, skills balance.

Gorbadoc
03-01-2008, 01:50 AM
Speaking of patience, my question is this: What OPTIONS do I have for versatility? I appreciate the cursory overview of my rogue options, but do keep in mind that I already built a rogue and, in so doing, read up on rogues. My current rogue is a 10,18,12,16,8,14 (base) drow, and I concur that I could definitely get better survivability if I'd drop one point of starting dexterity for two more points of charisma and take 2 levels of paladin (with appropriate planning to make the skills work out). Even better if I'd take the Force of Personality feat. And, of course, fighter levels => better attack bonus, slightly better hp, and extra feats. As long as we're on the subject, I might as well add that a rogue with two levels of ranger gets an extra feat (since TWF is a ranger freebie) in addition to some cute little bow skills.

Right! Rogue + the right warrior splash = one form of chocolaty goodness. It's a possibility which I'm keeping in mind.

What are my other options? Don't hesitate to be creative, unconventional, or even a little bit crazy.

Thanks!

Edit: Oh, and in case anyone needs the contextual details, I'm up to level 7 with my spellsinger and 6 with my rogue.

Also, I'll definitely look into battle clerics, by which I mean I'll poke around the cleric forum. Thanks, Tallyn.

Dariun
03-01-2008, 07:19 AM
Also, I'll definitely look into battle clerics, by which I mean I'll poke around the cleric forum.

Battle clerics are great when you are in groups that let you play them up to their full potential.

I have a somewhat odd battle cleric, dwarf cleric 9/ranger 1. Started with 16 str, 16 wis, 14 dex. He melees with dwarven axes and has some good longbows for ranged attacks (recently avoided a party wipe by taking out two beholders with a longbow and then raised the rest of the party from the dead) but he can also drop back and act as primary healer for a group when needed. I made him as a "concept" character without really understanding DDO mechanics, but I've always been very happy with how he plays. Cleric with 1 level of fighter or 1 level of paladin are more popular and very good ideas.


Another very versatile build is Warforged warrior (fighter, ranger, paladin, or barbarian) with 1 level of arcane spell caster (wizard/sorcerer). The purpose of that 1 level of arcance spell caster is primarily to allow you to use Repair wands to self heal, but you can also you any arcane wand in the game, which means you have a lot of buffs and some crowd control spells you can use. Also, Fireball can be a really good way to get aggro off of the rest of the party and on to you and is also an effective ranged attack and useful when soloing. I have a friend with a WF barbarian/wizard, and I have a WF fighter/wizard. They are both great. Important note: for these builds it really doesn't matter much if you have a high enough INT (or CHA for sorcerers) to cast spells -- you can still cast wands (and wands are not affected by "arcane spell failure"). Note that a WF ranger/wizard or paladin/wizard would also be able to use healing wands on fleshies (and most wands in the game), if that was desirable.

Paladin/sorcerer is another popular multiclass, but I've never played it.

Mutliclass builds can definitely be tricky to get right, so once you find an idea you like planning most of the build in advance is critical.