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View Full Version : Finesse Effect Needs To Change



DNDJESS
02-27-2008, 04:47 PM
This isn't about finessable weapons, this is about weapons with the 'Finesse' effect. Who exactly were these weapons intended to benefit? Since the effect is only found on weapons that are already finessable, they don't help people with the finesse feat. And people who don't have weapon finesse aren't going to use a lesser damage weapon, especially since the weapon will be weakened by having the finesse effect on it instead of some other more desirable effect.

I think changing the finesse effect to one of the suggestions below would be a huge improvement, and actually make the effect desirable by some players:

1. Remove the effect from light weapons and add it to weapons that normally aren't finessable. Then change the description and the effect itself so that it makes the weapon usable by players with the weapon finesse feat.

2. Change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength.

3. Keep the effect as-is, but add a to-hit and/or damage bonus for players who already have the finesse feat.

4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement.

I think #1 #2 or both 1 and 2 would be the best suggestions.

Angelus_dead
02-27-2008, 05:09 PM
It's true that the finesse weapon enhancement has a problem: it is too expensive for the benefit.


This isn't about finessable weapons, this is about weapons with the 'Finesse' effect. Who exactly were these weapons intended to benefit?
Someone with high dexerity who didn't already have Weapon Finesse as a feat. That means some archers and some mages, but in practice neither can really benefit from it. The finesse property costs so many pluses from the weapon, it nearly cancels out their higher dex bonus, and of course has a small enhancement bonus to damage too.


1. Remove the effect from light weapons and add it to weapons that normally aren't finessable. Then change the description and the effect itself so that it makes the weapon usable by players with the weapon finesse feat.
That should be done as a separate property. It is Feycraft, from DMG2 (and is more like a material type than an enhancement)


2. Change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength.
That should be done as a separate property, prehaps named after Elegant Strike (Races of the Wild) or Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle).


4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement.
That would be a separate property, called "of Speed". DDO already has something similar, in the form of "Melee Alacrity" items.

Impaqt
02-27-2008, 05:11 PM
meh, They seem to work out quite well for Players who have a Higher Dex than str and still want to be able toweild a weapon efectively without using a feat.

I know my repeater Bard had a few finesse weapons cause she had a Nice Dex, but no Str or Weapon Finesse feat.

DNDJESS
02-27-2008, 05:36 PM
meh, They seem to work out quite well for Players who have a Higher Dex than str and still want to be able toweild a weapon efectively without using a feat.

I know my repeater Bard had a few finesse weapons cause she had a Nice Dex, but no Str or Weapon Finesse feat.

OK, so the only benefit is that people with low strength can now hit often for very low damage? That doesn't seem very beneficial, especially since you'll be sacrificing a useful effect that you could have on an item just to be able to hit often.

And to Angelus' post above, it seems like you agree with all the ideas I posted, as long as they don't call it 'finesse'. Seems pretty nitpick-y to me. Or are you saying they should add all these effects to the game, and also leave in the finesse effect, even though you agree it's pretty much worthless?

Falco_Easts
02-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Don't like them - Don't use them.
Problem solved.

MrCow
02-27-2008, 06:01 PM
The primary use of a "finesse" weapon is to equip in the offhand when you are DEX heavy and want to use a finessable weapon to attack with. Depending on the primary weapon you won't need to (or want to) damage for it to work (for instance, a banishing shortsword on a flesh render that is fascinated, do no damage to break the fascinate, but you will eventually banish it).

It may not be a potent item, but it still has uses.

GuitarHero
02-27-2008, 06:04 PM
Don't like them - Don't use them.
Problem solved.

no, i refuse. And for that matter, they need to fix these vicious weapons i'm dual wielding! :)

darkhorus
02-27-2008, 06:10 PM
Don't like them - Don't use them.
Problem solved.

i really agree with this so many players have started to complain about things they don't like about the game. don't like the game don't play it.

Spectralist
02-27-2008, 06:11 PM
I use them. Both on my Great Crossbow bard. And on my Sorcerer. Its saved me a ton of spellpoints finishing off weak enemies rather then having to throw an extra spell at them for a few slivers of health. I do think the + cost of the enchantment should be lowered though. What is it, like +3?

JFeenstra
02-27-2008, 06:15 PM
The primary use of a "finesse" weapon is to equip in the offhand when you are DEX heavy and want to use a finessable weapon to attack with. Depending on the primary weapon you won't need to (or want to) damage for it to work (for instance, a banishing shortsword on a flesh render that is fascinated, do no damage to break the fascinate, but you will eventually banish it).

It may not be a potent item, but it still has uses.hitting something for 0 damage will still break fascinate

DNDJESS
02-27-2008, 06:27 PM
Don't like them - Don't use them.
Problem solved.

Do you realize that the whole purpose of this section of the forums is for brainstorming? If nobody 'complained' about the things they didn't feel were right, nothing would ever change. If everybody agrees that an effect is worthless, there's a good chance the devs will reevaluate the effect.

But instead of expressing your opinion, feel free to be Turbine's 'yes-man' and keep telling us everything is perfect.

Falco_Easts
02-27-2008, 06:45 PM
Do you realize that the whole purpose of this section of the forums is for brainstorming? If nobody 'complained' about the things they didn't feel were right, nothing would ever change. If everybody agrees that an effect is worthless, there's a good chance the devs will reevaluate the effect.

But instead of expressing your opinion, feel free to be Turbine's 'yes-man' and keep telling us everything is perfect.

Read the replies, most have been saying they use them.
Would be like me saying none of my characters use bastard swords, so they are no use to anyone. Khopeshes are better anyway. Bastard swords should be taken out of the game or changed.

You wanted feedback, I gave you feedback. I think Dev time could be put a lot better use. By the posts above, a lot of people find these weapons useful.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

My original post was not meant as an attack, more an observation.

MysticTheurge
02-27-2008, 08:09 PM
Or those blasted Keen weapons!!! I mean who doesn't have Improved Crit?!

Spectralist
02-27-2008, 08:14 PM
Or those blasted Keen weapons!!! I mean who doesn't have Improved Crit?!

Now if only i could get a keen finesse rapier!

ViVid7th
02-27-2008, 08:19 PM
Or those blasted Keen weapons!!! I mean who doesn't have Improved Crit?!

Umm, someone with a BAB lower than 8? My repeater user loves her ml4 +1 shock repeater of keen.

Vormaerin
02-27-2008, 08:24 PM
Umm, someone with a BAB lower than 8? My repeater user loves her ml4 +1 shock repeater of keen.

*laughs* Did you miss the humor in MT's post or did I miss yours? Because MT was parodying the OP's assertion that "Finesse" ability is useless because anyone who would want it already has the Weapon Finesse Feat.

Oh, and my spellsinger bard could benefit from one. My Dex is 2pts higher than my Str, not enough to bother with Weapon Finesse IMHO. Haven't actually found one of those weapons, though. I'm guessing the +2 Dex doesn't stack with other +Dex effects?

Falco_Easts
02-27-2008, 08:43 PM
Now if only i could get a keen finesse rapier!

Na, weighted rapier FTW!!!

ViVid7th
02-27-2008, 08:53 PM
*laughs* Did you miss the humor in MT's post or did I miss yours? Because MT was parodying the OP's assertion that "Finesse" ability is useless because anyone who would want it already has the Weapon Finesse Feat.

Oh, and my spellsinger bard could benefit from one. My Dex is 2pts higher than my Str, not enough to bother with Weapon Finesse IMHO. Haven't actually found one of those weapons, though. I'm guessing the +2 Dex doesn't stack with other +Dex effects?

Nah, missed his humor. Missed the italic tag there, and since he normally somehow tags his sarcasm.

Pellegro
02-27-2008, 09:50 PM
I don't know if it "needs" to change, but I'd like to see it paired with more useful debuffs.

My sorc has a great dex and I'd love to use these, but they're all +1/+2 with no effects.

Why bother?

Falco_Easts
02-27-2008, 10:04 PM
I don't know if it "needs" to change, but I'd like to see it paired with more useful debuffs.

My sorc has a great dex and I'd love to use these, but they're all +1/+2 with no effects.

Why bother?

If you were to melee at the moment, what sort of weapons would you use? As a sorc, you will probably struggle to find the STR to get a hit but with finesse you will find it a bit easier. Sure, your not gonna be doing massive DPS but not to many sorcs (notice I said not many, not no sorcs) would in melee.

Pellegro
02-27-2008, 10:06 PM
If you were to melee at the moment, what sort of weapons would you use? As a sorc, you will probably struggle to fins the STR to get a hit bit with finesse you will find it a bit easier. Sure, your not gonna be doing massive DPS but not to many sorcs (notice I said not many, not no sorcs) would in melee.


Thats very true! And I do melee with my sorc. But it seems to be more effective to use Tensers Scrolls and bursting picks.

MysticTheurge
02-27-2008, 10:22 PM
Nah, missed his humor. Missed the italic tag there, and since he normally somehow tags his sarcasm.

And they tried to tell me there was no need for the "rolleyes" emoticon!

Falco_Easts
02-27-2008, 11:05 PM
Thats very true! And I do melee with my sorc. But it seems to be more effective to use Tensers Scrolls and bursting picks.

I can see that working as well :)

winsom
02-28-2008, 12:19 AM
Oh, and my spellsinger bard could benefit from one. My Dex is 2pts higher than my Str, not enough to bother with Weapon Finesse IMHO.

No you wouldn't benefit because the magical plus on the finesse weapon will be lower, due to the finesse property. You are better off wielding a +5 sword, and attacking with STR, than a +2 Finesse sword (if Finesse is +3 worth, I dont know) and attacking with DEX. See the problem?

The finesse weapon only has uses for character's with extremely uneven STR & DEX, like my wizard with STR 10 and DEX 22. But in actual gameplay the weapon is not useful because my wizard has better weapon-use options available to her. Why swing around a crappy damage weapon, when she can use a Divine Power clicky and attack with full Fighter BaB with a much better weapon? The Master's Touch spell (bards get it too) removes the -4 penalty associated with non-proficient weapons. I use this tactic to fight with a Vorpal great axe, if I want to kill something. There is no way my wizard's low damage numbers are going to a kill a 2000+ hit point monster any time soon, so I need to vorpal it, or paralyer-it then spend a minute chipping away at its HPs...

I think it would be possible (eventually?) to have a paralyzing weapon of finesse, or vorpal of finesse? Thats about the only uses I see for that weapon suffix. If Finesse is a weapon prefix (?) that would make it even less useful.

Vormaerin
02-28-2008, 01:50 AM
But the "there are better things" options applies to all sorts of effects. It doesn't make those effects useless. It just means there are better effects. The property has an effect that provides a benefit. You may have a different weapon that provides you a benefit you prefer, but that's not a reason to take the other effect out of the game. If the Dex bonus stacks with other item Dex bonuses (which it might, though I doubt it) then its kind of useful in various ways. If it doesn't, it'll probably stay with a whole slew of effects that do something but not something good enough that you can't find a better item instead.

BlueLightBandit
02-28-2008, 07:55 AM
You know, I may be the oddball, but my rogue used a couple o' finesse light maces before he was able to take the weapon finesse feat. Granted he took the repeater feat first, but just the same, by level 8 he hadn't taken the finesse feat because I had some ml6 and ml8 finesse weapons, so I could put that feat off until much later in the build.

So they DO have a purpose, albeit one that isn't going to benefit the majority of people.

But I'm in the category of people who are saying "if you don't like it, don't equip it" and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Karavek
02-29-2008, 04:51 PM
You make some good points, I have often found the Finnesse enhancment on weapons to be a huge joke. I think your ideas all show some potential, but here is an idea from an elf who always favors finnesse over strength and has felt there has beena huge imbalance agaisnt dextrous characters from the beginning of DDO. Largely the change of many spells from being touch attacks to saves, made heavy armor all the more favorable to many since dexterity still is useless when held and the like. Also due to the need for highly specialized weapons for dealing comparative dmg our gold is cosntantly being drained in bid wars for every dsirupting ,smiting,and banishing short sword, dagger, and rapier above most others. Not to mention bane weapons for constructs and undead. This brings up to my mind the sunblade and how much we who favor dex crave one to grant us truly respectable damage to evil and especially undead.

So my idea is make the Finnesse enchantment be something like how a sunblade works. make weapons with it act as short swords yet keep thier damage and type. This would mean if you did find a finnesse bastard sword, khopesh, or even dwarven axe, a dextrous halfling or elf would be able to fully enjoy it, and if it had a nice secondary effect like pure good, or a bane it would make it very comparable to the far to rare sunblade, without being in anyways truly overpowering as those who go high dex and int( as most rogues are practically forced to do to be truly reliable trappist in the hardest quest) for thier builds would finnaly have a hope to finding some practical weapons for a lower price( one they have been found often eough to become standard fare anyways)

DNDJESS
03-02-2008, 10:54 AM
I think the problem here is that I started my original post by stating that the finesse effect was useless. Then, instead of reading the entire post and debating the merits of the ideas posted, people who used the finesse effect stopped reading to try and explain why they think they're usable. This line of thinking is, and always will be, counter-productive.

I've re-worded some of the original ideas, and I'll re-post them now. For those who currently like the finesse effect, please discuss the merits of these ideas, and if you don't like them, explain how they'd negatively effect you or the game:


1. Add the finesse attack to weapons that normally aren't finessable, and allow any character to use the weapon as though they had the finesse feat.

2. For characters who already have the finesse feat, change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength.

3. Add a to-hit and/or damage bonus for players who already have the finesse feat.

4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement.

Falco_Easts
03-02-2008, 06:59 PM
1. Add the finesse attack to weapons that normally aren't finessable, and allow any character to use the weapon as though they had the finesse feat.
The thought of being able to finesse a greataxe does send shivers down my spine, so probably why we shouldn't be able to. One handed weapons possibly.


2. For characters who already have the finesse feat, change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength. No need to change it. If they already hae finesse they are getting enough of a bonus


3. Add a to-hit and/or damage bonus for players who already have the finesse feat. As above


4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement. I could see this as an option for finesse

Andah
03-02-2008, 09:42 PM
This isn't about finessable weapons, this is about weapons with the 'Finesse' effect. Who exactly were these weapons intended to benefit? Since the effect is only found on weapons that are already finessable, they don't help people with the finesse feat. And people who don't have weapon finesse aren't going to use a lesser damage weapon, especially since the weapon will be weakened by having the finesse effect on it instead of some other more desirable effect.

I think changing the finesse effect to one of the suggestions below would be a huge improvement, and actually make the effect desirable by some players:

1. Remove the effect from light weapons and add it to weapons that normally aren't finessable. Then change the description and the effect itself so that it makes the weapon usable by players with the weapon finesse feat.

2. Change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength.

3. Keep the effect as-is, but add a to-hit and/or damage bonus for players who already have the finesse feat.

4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement.

I think #1 #2 or both 1 and 2 would be the best suggestions.

Making dexterity add to damage would be FAR too much from weapon finesse alone. At present it's easier (and more effective) to get a super-high dex rather than strength. I don't have a problem with them adding 'Improved Weapon Finesse' or something as a high-end feat that allows you to use the higher of your modifiers, Dex or Str to damage.