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Mr_Ed7
02-27-2008, 04:29 PM
I did it, I got my fighter-wizard to levels 8/8!
How cool it is.
I am still surprised that there are not more of these builds running around.

This build was based on the "Elf" class of the Basic Dungeons & Dragons set & the popular Fighter/Magicuser multi-class available only to elves and half-elves in AD&D. Drow elves typically were multi-classed as well IN AD&D.

It is really alot of fun to play. This is not an elite build by any means, it is more of a support class than anything.

So with this build, since shields hamper spellcasting I went for the two weapon fighting all the way.
I also put some points in tumble, and got the appropriate feats for an AC bonus when tumbling; in lieu of a shield.
Love the magic missles, so I put all I could into my Force enhancements. I use Web alot to trap my victims, and buff myself with things like Rage, False Life, Resist..., Blur, and Heroism too.

Anyway, check-out this build sometime it is fun to play!

PS: I have Haste, Firewall, and Dimension Door too!

Impaqt
02-27-2008, 04:35 PM
I did it, I got my fighter-wizard to levels 8/8!
How cool it is.
Anyway, check-out this build sometime it is fun to play!

PS: I have Haste, Firewall, and Dimension Door too!

WHeres the Build?

I'd be interested to see how it lays out on paper....

BTW, Light Mithral Sheilds have Zero effect on spellcasting.

Beherit_Baphomar
02-27-2008, 04:39 PM
BTW, Light Mithral Sheilds have Zero effect on spellcasting.

And the heavy mithril shield from Tor.

PSU93
03-03-2008, 07:42 PM
Good for you Ed! I always loved the Elf from Basic D&D and actually just rolled the same thing myself. I'm still new so I have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind:

1) What made you decide to balance the levels 8/8? I was thinking of making mine more like F3/W13 to make him more powerful at high level, yet less squishy just starting out.

2) How are his Spell Points? I find myself frequently running out now; is that still a problem as you get higher?

3) (Totally newb here...) Does the Force Enhancement apply to Magic Missiles? I wasn't sure so I didn't take it, but will change if so. What other Enhancements were helpful?

4) How's TWF working out? I took the same thing for the same reasons.

Thanks for the feedback.

frugal_gourmet
05-01-2008, 12:05 PM
I've always wanted to do this, but never quite had the guts. I think it'd be a steep hill of class bigotry to climb. :) Also, I think it'd have significant weaknesses so you'd have to be a really good player (I am definitely not).

I think the designers should add something equivalent to the "practiced spellcaster" feat from D&D (the ability to add up to 4 non-caster-class levels to your caster level when casting a spell). It's what really made multiclassing a spellcaster possible in PNP and was fairly well balanced.

WeaselKing
05-01-2008, 12:12 PM
3) (Totally newb here...) Does the Force Enhancement apply to Magic Missiles? I wasn't sure so I didn't take it, but will change if so. What other Enhancements were helpful?


Yes

Talon_Moonshadow
05-01-2008, 12:43 PM
Sounds good. I might try one someday.
I think it would be a little weak, but not as much as most people think.
Curious about his stats though.
You need a very high (maxed out) Int to be effective with many spells. But even a lowly Hypno is still very effective at end game if you can get them to fail their saves.
Seems you prob went Dex/finesse.
My Drow Wiz has maxed Int and a very good dex....actually melees ok, so I can see that it is possible. But Drow have much better stats than even a 32 pt Elf. (for any build with Dex/Int/Char anyway)

I think your build (even though not listed) is probably a decent one. Not Uber but decent.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-01-2008, 01:01 PM
I've always wanted to do this, but never quite had the guts. I think it'd be a steep hill of class bigotry to climb. :) Also, I think it'd have significant weaknesses so you'd have to be a really good player (I am definitely not).

I think the designers should add something equivalent to the "practiced spellcaster" feat from D&D (the ability to add up to 4 non-caster-class levels to your caster level when casting a spell). It's what really made multiclassing a spellcaster possible in PNP and was fairly well balanced.

I think you would just need to know a few bacsic concepts.
If they fail their save, even a low lvl spell is very good. Better for CC than damage though IMO. But even the damage spells can be ok.
He mentioned MM. It hurts most creatures, enhancments and equipment can boost it.....but his damage and SP will be very far behind a lvl 16 Sor/Wiz, so i doubt he will actually kil anything with it.....but he will damage it.

CC is where it is at IMO. Hypno, Web....still very good at end game.
He has most of the buffs my Wiz routinely uses, and should have higher HP than my Wiz......me Wiz is not squishy at all IMO, and if she had better weps could actually do some decent (not great but decent) tanking.
And having those spells to help you out with mobs makes that tanking even more possible.

if you are one on one with a Hobgoblin that is too much for you......hold person, then beat him down.
If you are facing a whole mob....Hypno than beat them down one by one (add otto's FTW).

I can see his build doing just fine. Biggest prob will be other players....not the dungeons or mobs.

frugal_gourmet
05-01-2008, 04:31 PM
I can see his build doing just fine. Biggest prob will be other players....not the dungeons or mobs.

I could see it being all right, but I still support my practiced spellcaster idea. I think it would be an improvement.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-01-2008, 05:02 PM
I could see it being all right, but I still support my practiced spellcaster idea. I think it would be an improvement.

Yeah, I wish they would add some stuff for Multi-classed toons.

In DDO what I think hurts them most is the Enhancment system and how it so over-powers pure builds.

My main has 5 lvls of Wiz, but only a 20 Int (16base I think)...it's not enough to land spells on high lvl baddies and he doesn't have enough SP to be a nuker....plus lacks the enhancements for a nuker.
So he buffs instead.

But I could see building a high Int version and being effective.
The OPs build could PK things if his Int is high enough.

I'd really like to see more multi-classed love in DDO though.

Something Else I want to see is DC from scrolls and wands taking into account Int/Cha/Wiz of the user. And clickies.

I search like crazy for some suport on this idea in the PnP rules....but actually, I can't figure out what DC from a scroll is supposed to be.
In PnP what is the DC for a Hypnotism scroll when UMDed by a Rogue? I cannot find this answer in the rules.
I think it should be 11+ rogues int or Cha modifyer.....but can find no evidence one way or another on this.

Probably better to start another post on this though.

frugal_gourmet
05-02-2008, 10:17 AM
I search like crazy for some suport on this idea in the PnP rules....but actually, I can't figure out what DC from a scroll is supposed to be.
In PnP what is the DC for a Hypnotism scroll when UMDed by a Rogue? I cannot find this answer in the rules.
I think it should be 11+ rogues int or Cha modifyer.....but can find no evidence one way or another on this.

Probably better to start another post on this though.

In D&D, I'm pretty sure it actually does utilize the appropriate ability score for casting depending on the caster type (if arcane, I suppose you could pick from int/cha.. never had that instance). If your ability score is not high enough, you may use UMD to emulate an ability score neede and there are rules for this.

Propane
11-27-2008, 09:38 AM
I am running a drow 4ran/12 sorc - 30 or dex and chr (with equipment). He is a blast to run. I run him as a ranged attacks (clubs in off hand - throwing weapon, bows) I took weapon finness - all though I don't do a lot of damage with 2 short swords, I hit often and do a lot of de-buffing... unbuffed umd over 20...

I did Sor 1, Rang 2, 3. Then I took the last 2 ranger levels after I got Firewall...

I am split spec for fire and eletrical - can crit for 500+ for both 18% of the time (visit AH for equipment)

With the lv 20 cap coming, I am planning goint to 6 rang/12 sorc. (multi shot)

hu-flung-pu
11-30-2008, 10:32 PM
Glad to see you guys discovering how awesome melee casters can be. I'm kicking around ideas with kensai PrE's in mind.

Heighten is a must for us multi-casters as well if you're going for crowd control and basically anything with a save. Solid fog with acid cloud and fire wall is a great combo to fight in the middle of. And glitter dust is infinitely helpful at low to mid levels.

I do hope Eldritch Knight gets some arcane PrE love in the future.

MrCow
11-30-2008, 11:00 PM
Something Else I want to see is DC from scrolls and wands taking into account Int/Cha/Wiz of the user. And clickies.

The Staff of Arcane Power actually adds your INT to it's spell DC. ;)

Quanefel
11-30-2008, 11:04 PM
I have had my elf fighter/mage(8/8) capped out for over a year. She is one of my favorite characters to play. OP, it is good to see you and a few others have the same love of elf fighter/mages as much as me. Although lately I was thinking of going TWF as you have done, mine as of now is an Arcane Archer/Bladesinger of sorts. Like yours she uses her spells for CC or buffing. I hardly ever use her spells as damaging. I personally am looking forward to level 20 on her, going 10/10 as my plan was from the start. What was everyone else going at cap with theirs?

I can imagine people look at your ftr/mage with a curious look. I know people ask me questions all the time when they see me in a party on my ftr/mage. Luckily most people know me enough to let me in their groups without too much fuss because of my build.

Maybe everyone who likes this concept build of an elf ftr/mage should put a list of their stats, feats, skills, etc. Contrast and compare the various ways we all have done ours to see any difference? Good job though all around for all those who believed in this idea enough that they at least tried it out.

underlordone
11-30-2008, 11:15 PM
Hats off to you. Lets hope they add enhancemts line for multi class

hu-flung-pu
12-01-2008, 12:05 AM
Maybe everyone who likes this concept build of an elf ftr/mage should put a list of their stats, feats, skills, etc. Contrast and compare the various ways we all have done ours to see any difference? Good job though all around for all those who believed in this idea enough that they at least tried it out.

All mine are warforged so a little out of place here, but my fighter wizard was started WAY back when the cap was raised to 12. So his goal was 5/7 fighter/wizard, and my paladin/sorc his goal is 6/10, he's in retirement at the moment.

Oh since I'm on teh subject, wheres the spell carved soldier? *ahem*

geoffhanna
12-01-2008, 06:48 AM
My attempt at a battlecaster is a monk/wizard. She is 5/5 now, will be monk9/wiz7 when capped, monk9/wiz11 after the cap raise. She is definitely not uber but really fun to play.

She is a different take on this build concept though. Not just because she is monk/wizard, but also because she is primarily melee. She doesn't try to also be an effective party-support caster.

She has enough mana to thoroughly buff herself - twice - with a little leftover for the occasional Haste or Web.

If you are curious: her build is here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=157643)

Mr_Ed7
03-18-2009, 11:00 PM
I wanted to bring this post back to life.

Answering questions from a year ago with a small update.

My Fighter Wizard in additon to being a two-weapon fighter, he also has the khopesh feat which was taken to wield the Chaosblade. Force critical has been added to the Chaosblade as well.

The twf was inspired by the Drow of the Fiend Folio. (Where are my handcrossbows?)

I enjoy using spider bracers to create an image of Lolth which looks nice with that web spell I mentioned with the acid cloud.

But what next? I don't know. I do not have this build mapped out, only the next mod knows.

Electric_Pulses
03-18-2009, 11:08 PM
I find that a straight lvl 16 wizard makes a better battle mage but i could be wrong, if you are on Thelanis we should fight each other sometime.

Mr_Ed7
03-18-2009, 11:16 PM
I find that a straight lvl 16 wizard makes a better battle mage but i could be wrong, if you are on Thelanis we should fight each other sometime.

We can fight. No mana or spells though. OK?

Mr_Ed7
09-05-2009, 12:41 PM
I beleive this is my third update on my character to let you know what Sicarii is up to.

He is duel-wielding Khopeshes right now, one the Chaosblade and one a Vorpal!

I took a level in Fighter making me 9/8 at the moment. Odd it gave me 5 spell points...is that normal? I can not recall.

I am currently looking for Chain Missles since I am Force speced.
My Web spells have been mostly ineffective, so I am using more Magic & Force missles.

That's all for now, will update again when I go 9 in Wizard!

Aranticus
09-11-2009, 09:40 PM
I beleive this is my third update on my character to let you know what Sicarii is up to.

He is duel-wielding Khopeshes right now, one the Chaosblade and one a Vorpal!

I took a level in Fighter making me 9/8 at the moment. Odd it gave me 5 spell points...is that normal? I can not recall.

I am currently looking for Chain Missles since I am Force speced.
My Web spells have been mostly ineffective, so I am using more Magic & Force missles.

That's all for now, will update again when I go 9 in Wizard!

i have an elven bladesinger template 12ftr/8wiz to make use of kensai power surge

Mr_Ed7
09-13-2009, 10:28 AM
i have an elven bladesinger template 12ftr/8wiz to make use of kensai power surge

Wow, no disparaging comment from you Aranticus?
Please tell me more about this character of yours. I am unfamiliar with bladesinger and a kensai power surge, I am interested.

Aranticus
09-13-2009, 10:38 AM
Wow, no disparaging comment from you Aranticus?
Please tell me more about this character of yours. I am unfamiliar with bladesinger and a kensai power surge, I am interested.

i'm objective. it doesnt mean if its you i must "troll"

going 12/8 is probably the best way that i can see. the caster levels are kept to 8 so that you can have access to L4 wiz spells. main buffing spells are blur, shield, displace, haste and fire/cold shield. going ftr 12 is for kensai II which gives the power surge ability which you use an attack boost charge to gain a +8 to str

spifflove
09-14-2009, 09:13 AM
i'm objective. it doesnt mean if its you i must "troll"

going 12/8 is probably the best way that i can see. the caster levels are kept to 8 so that you can have access to L4 wiz spells. main buffing spells are blur, shield, displace, haste and fire/cold shield. going ftr 12 is for kensai II which gives the power surge ability which you use an attack boost charge to gain a +8 to str

I think 12/8 bard would serve you better. May not fit f/m entirely but then again it does.

Mr_Ed7
09-25-2009, 02:36 PM
I got pwned in the Iron Maw today, making it imperative that I get my Heavy Fortification Helm...

Orchard here I come!

2 ranks from level 9 in Wizard!

Ephemeral
09-27-2009, 09:59 PM
i'm objective. it doesnt mean if its you i must "troll"

going 12/8 is probably the best way that i can see. the caster levels are kept to 8 so that you can have access to L4 wiz spells. main buffing spells are blur, shield, displace, haste and fire/cold shield. going ftr 12 is for kensai II which gives the power surge ability which you use an attack boost charge to gain a +8 to str

If triple classing is allowed (I'm not sure if the OP is looking at a dual class build only) then 12/7/1 ftr/wiz/monk might be better for ac plus a feat, as the 8th level of wizard is not giving you much more than you'd already get with 7th.

Personally, I'd be more drawn to 11 ranger than 12 fighter on a build like this; you lose a little on dps vs the kensai, but you get access to evasion as well as the full set of twf feats, plus a better caster level for resist energy. That build could then be fleshed out to 11 ranger / 9 wizard, or 11 ranger / 7-8 wiz / 1-2 other (probably monk for the wis to ac bonus again)

Mr_Ed7
09-28-2009, 02:41 PM
Good suggestions but I went for a pure strength fighter slash wizard build as per the class combo of old.

A ranger-wizard would probably be cool...how about a Paladin-Sorc!

Mr_Ed7
10-10-2009, 12:29 PM
Leveled, now I am 10 Fighter, specializing in Critical Khopesh hits.

I am a few ranks of maxing out as a Wizard.

Rydin_Dirtay
10-13-2009, 05:37 PM
I presently have one that I'm working towards 18 ranger/1 wiz/1 fighter, currently at 10/1/1. Little bit different theme to what you have here. Will have Tempest III, Fighter Haste Boost, Extend for dragonmark, extended dragonmk displacement. Not really as wizardy as yours, but he does have a little bit of that elven shadow warrior flavor with the dragonmark I suppose.

I'd love to have Fire Shield, Haste, etc. and I may just have to build another one later.

Maybe my next elven warrior-type will involve fighter as primary class, which would really free up the feats for Khopesh and so forth. Plus it would do more dps with Khopesh. Good stuff.

Rydin_Dirtay
10-13-2009, 05:39 PM
...or maybe go Scimmy (instead of Khopesh) with the new Mod9 elf enhancement line.

Hafeal
10-13-2009, 05:49 PM
Nice OP.

I have been tempted to play a re-build of one of my first pnp characters - a fighter/magic-user/thief. I loved that character. It was a half-elf though and I have thought to wait for DDO to bring half-elves along ...

Mr_Ed7
10-14-2009, 12:39 PM
Nice OP.

I have been tempted to play a re-build of one of my first pnp characters - a fighter/magic-user/thief. I loved that character. It was a half-elf though and I have thought to wait for DDO to bring half-elves along ...

Go for it! I recomend doing the Weapon Finese with that build...

Leinna
10-29-2009, 10:35 PM
Hi,

What armour do you wear? My basic D&D elves always wore plate, a real all-rounder class :) I doubt that would work in DDO though :(

Mr_Ed7
10-30-2009, 10:33 AM
Yeah in the old days we could wear any armor...

Most of the game I wore Mithril Plate, thanks to the kindness of a guildie I now have Twilight-Mithril plate. This has reduced my spell failure to 5% because of some well-chosen enhancements.

I am not the primary fighter or wizard, but I have fun doing what I do.

GhoulsTouch
04-20-2010, 02:25 PM
How would a ranger/wizard play out differently? Say a Rngr 12/8 wiz.

Ashurr
04-20-2010, 05:00 PM
Going this route myself, with a couple levels of Rogue thrown in for Evasion ( and it fits the chars personality)

Here it be - http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/caimbeul/

Mr_Ed7
04-21-2010, 12:01 PM
I have started a ranger/wizard...get this: An archer and magic-missle caster...he may turn out to be fun. Warforged too, so self-heals.

Remember my build was not meant to be the optimal build, just based on AD&D!

That being said, there are probably lots of better builds...

I like the commitment I take though...making the best out of splitting the levels down the middle!

GhoulsTouch
04-24-2010, 03:02 PM
I was thinking more elven arcane archer...

Karavek
08-07-2010, 10:35 PM
Yeah, I wish they would add some stuff for Multi-classed toons.

In DDO what I think hurts them most is the Enhancment system and how it so over-powers pure builds.

My main has 5 lvls of Wiz, but only a 20 Int (16base I think)...it's not enough to land spells on high lvl baddies and he doesn't have enough SP to be a nuker....plus lacks the enhancements for a nuker.
So he buffs instead.

But I could see building a high Int version and being effective.
The OPs build could PK things if his Int is high enough.

I'd really like to see more multi-classed love in DDO though.

Something Else I want to see is DC from scrolls and wands taking into account Int/Cha/Wiz of the user. And clickies.

I search like crazy for some suport on this idea in the PnP rules....but actually, I can't figure out what DC from a scroll is supposed to be.
In PnP what is the DC for a Hypnotism scroll when UMDed by a Rogue? I cannot find this answer in the rules.
I think it should be 11+ rogues int or Cha modifyer.....but can find no evidence one way or another on this.

Probably better to start another post on this though.

been a while but I think in 3E rules all magic items that caused spell effects had thier saves connected to the power of the creator. So no rule of such and such is this or that so much as who made this item or just use a random roll for generating its caster lvl.

Thanriyon
09-14-2010, 09:37 AM
Now, I decided to go multiclassed, and ended up with
Ranger (2 levels), /Fighter/Wizard (currently Ftr4, Wiz 7).

I took Ranger mainly to fit in with the pen & paper character I've played for, hmm, 29 years now (from Basic, to 1st ed, 2nd ed, 3.5 ed, and now pathfinder, sheesh, I'm getting old) - but I think it's obvious the DDO version doesn't do justice to him :D

Race: Elf (not drow), using a Two-handed sword.

Soloing is... interesting.. that's a polite word for it, yes. Mind you, I am still a complete newb, so I am sure I've made plenty of mistakes with enhancements, etc.
I'm pretty sure it harms my image when I run away from Beholders screaming like a little girl ;p

I also decided to take the Dragonmark for RP sakes, but actually find the invis, and displacement to be extremely useful.

On retrospect, when I hit 20, I will most likely re-roll as a Rogue/Ftr/Mage, to deal with traps.
I may take a Drow this time, just to see how that plays out as well.

Tanlaus
09-14-2010, 01:18 PM
Why spend needed feats on a dragon mark when invis, blur, and displacement are readily availible as spells?

Thrudh
09-14-2010, 01:36 PM
Nice Necro thread...

A 10/10 fighter/wizard is not a very good combination... There just aren't very many good 5th level wizard spells for someone with low Spell Pen and low DCs...

12/8 fighter/wizard is a little better...

I had a lot of fun with a 12/7/1 ranger/wizard/rogue... Rangers get a LOT of good stuff by level 12, including some good spells... Add in the wizard buffs, and it can be a decent character...

To me, the main point of a melee/wizard is self-cast haste, displacement, and rage... Getting to 7th level wizard gets you a weak but fun firewall, and fireshield/Dimension Door which is nice...

However, Turbine has destroyed the archetypical fighter/wizard concept from the original D&D... They have handed out so many clickables that replicate wizard spells that there is no point (in the long run anyway) to play a melee/wizard...

One can be a pure melee with all it's advantages, and STILL have access to all the good low-level wizard buffs via Shroud crafting, Amrath clickables, Shield wands, etc.

Again, I had a lot of fun with a ranger/wizard... and it could still be fun for a new player... but once you get a little gear, you'll just end up re-incarnating... It's not a good trade-off anymore...

Thanriyon
09-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Why spend needed feats on a dragon mark when invis, blur, and displacement are readily availible as spells?

I took the feats for roleplaying purposes basically, but,

1. Frees up a 2nd and 3rd level spell slot. (Which I use for other things)
2. Caster level = Character level, without spell cost for extend etc. So even if I'm out of spell points, I can still use these. (Grat fo running away!)
3. They don't seem to be interruptable, or suffer an arcane failure chance.
4. I think (but haven't seen proof) that displace and blur may stack

Good reasons to spend Feats? No.

But as I said, I took the Dragonmark for RP purposes, but they come in useful now and then

Darkrok
09-14-2010, 01:52 PM
Here's my take on the Bladesinger (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3180151#post3180151) (mine is 12 fighter/7 wizard/1 bard). I've got lots of comments in the posts following the build post that I linked there. It's an unwieldy build to level up, requires some tomes to work well, and doesn't have anything near the power of most builds. All that said, you get to play a caster that's not running around in his underwear (the bard level gives you no-fail casting in light armor) and you get all the basics of a bladesinger from pnp. I'd play it but I think it would drive me nuts slogging my way to 20 on it.

Thrudh
09-14-2010, 02:00 PM
Here's my take on the Bladesinger (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3180151#post3180151) (mine is 12 fighter/7 wizard/1 bard). I've got lots of comments in the posts following the build post that I linked there. It's an unwieldy build to level up, requires some tomes to work well, and doesn't have anything near the power of most builds. All that said, you get to play a caster that's not running around in his underwear (the bard level gives you no-fail casting in light armor) and you get all the basics of a bladesinger from pnp. I'd play it but I think it would drive me nuts slogging my way to 20 on it.

You would only get no-fail casting when casting the bard spells... In light armor, you'd still see occasional arcane failure when casting the wizard spells.

Mr_Ed7
09-14-2010, 02:18 PM
They have alluded to HalF-Elves being ideal for solo/multi class, I am hoping this is so and I may just TR the character in question.

Not to beat a dead centaur, but the build is fun. I actually do not use Wall of Fire and rely on Web with Acid Cloud.

The toon leveled mostly without the help of a guild and actually found surprisingly little predjudice. I tend to make up for gimpitude via player tactics!

Thanriyon
09-14-2010, 02:26 PM
I'll be interested to see how Half-elves pan out..

If it's good, I'll have to push to get those 7 remaining levels, and TR!

Seven... more... levels.. of.. soloing... brain... imploding..

Darkrok
09-14-2010, 02:30 PM
You would only get no-fail casting when casting the bard spells... In light armor, you'd still see occasional arcane failure when casting the wizard spells.

Ah, guess that makes it a flavor choice on going bard or rogue for that first level. The rest of the stuff still fits though. I could have sworn it was all arcane spells but I checked it in-game for my bard and it's not. In fact, if you try to UMD arcane scrolls you can get arcane spell failure on a bard. This normally doesn't come into play as by the time bards are UMD'ing arcane scrolls heavily they're usually in pajamas. My Warforged bard though had to spend 1AP to reduce his arcane failure so he could no-fail his reconstruct scrolls.

Thrudh
09-14-2010, 02:31 PM
They have alluded to HalF-Elves being ideal for solo/multi class, I am hoping this is so and I may just TR the character in question.

Not to beat a dead centaur, but the build is fun. I actually do not use Wall of Fire and rely on Web with Acid Cloud.

The toon leveled mostly without the help of a guild and actually found surprisingly little predjudice. I tend to make up for gimpitude via player tactics!

Web works for you?? Interesting... What's your INT? What quests does it work in? Do you use Heighten?

Entelech
09-14-2010, 02:45 PM
Heighten is about the only way to get save DC's up to useful levels with Web.


Interestingly, Pale Master is almost ideal for the multiclass Fighter / Wizard (non-Warforged). The undead forms give abilities that are useful to a physical combatant, and the self-healing is outstanding.

I'm working on a sword-and-board Pale Master 2 / Stalwart Defender 1 Intimitank build at the moment, and have leveled him up to 17. He's not ready to be tanking raid bosses yet, but he's coming along nicely.

http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/mordite/

Fire Shield, Death Aura and Wall of Fire are all awesome for an Intimitank, BTW.

Propane
09-14-2010, 02:54 PM
I have a 11 ranger / 8 bard / 1 ft AA - it is a lot of fun to play.

You could change out bard for caster and and so something similar... should be able to take care of most of the party buffs and then manyshot / fight as needed...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=255307&highlight=acetylene

gurgar78
09-14-2010, 02:56 PM
Some inherent weakness in my brain makes me want to try a 12 wiz/8 monk and see how much added damage lichform "inflict wounds" adds to monk h2h damage.

I could probably found out somewhere on the forums how much damage is added to unarmed attacks.

Even if it's just equal to the level one inflict light wounds divine spell, that's an extra 1d8+10 per attack. 1d10 physical fist damage from level 8 monk + 1d8+10 neg energy damage.

Hmm, that looks better than 2d10 to me.

Plus you get the option to use necrotic bolt for some ranged damage.

Level 12 wizard is enough to get 6th level spells for Tenser's Transformation, too.

Hmm, hmmm, hmmmmmmm.

Dark path gives a nice 25% incorporeal to add to blur/displacement.

My warforged wiz just hit level 12 last night. Now I'm starting to get ideas.

Edit: Oof, nevermind on that guy. You'd have to build that from the start for the right stats. His 8 str, 8 dex and 6 wisdom aren't going to do much for a monk. =P

Still... it might be time to fill that 10th character slot...

toughguyjoe
09-14-2010, 02:57 PM
4. I think (but haven't seen proof) that displace and blur may stack

I am confident that they do not stack.

Mr_Ed7
09-14-2010, 04:31 PM
Web works for you?? Interesting... What's your INT? What quests does it work in? Do you use Heighten?

Yes, the toon is somewhat retired being that I am an alt-aholic.

Last SIGNIFICANT use of Web was the gnolls in the shroud at the end-boss.
I can not recall if I have heighten, but I probably did not.

On a side note I am forced spec and I sometimes save my mana for an end volley of force/magic missles. Those I put on maximum. Nice way to steal a kill too.

I believe his intel is at 28. Since I play many alts (13) I have not grinded quests for uber loot nor have I crafted much of anything. I could only imagine how uber loot and crafting would really improve the toon.

Aranticus
09-14-2010, 06:23 PM
Yes, the toon is somewhat retired being that I am an alt-aholic.

Last SIGNIFICANT use of Web was the gnolls in the shroud at the end-boss.
I can not recall if I have heighten, but I probably did not.

On a side note I am forced spec and I sometimes save my mana for an end volley of force/magic missles. Those I put on maximum. Nice way to steal a kill too.

I believe his intel is at 28. Since I play many alts (13) I have not grinded quests for uber loot nor have I crafted much of anything. I could only imagine how uber loot and crafting would really improve the toon.

its a reflex based spell used on a caster type. while it works, do not confuse with effectiveness. try webbing devils in vod. that should be the basic benchmark of an effective web

the reality of ddo is deep MCs for caster types are really bad for spell casting

Entelech
09-16-2010, 02:29 PM
the reality of ddo is deep MCs for caster types are really bad for spell casting

The reality of planning ANY multiclass build is: does what you get from multiclassing make up for what you lose in the trade-off?


If you're going to be deep-multiclassing a spellcaster, there *are* legitimate reasons to do so. You're not going to be landing instakills in Amrath, but maybe you weren't planning on it to begin with.

It is possible to have a build strategy that uses weapons for damage, and has the spellcasting there for other reasons (buffing, healing, utility, supplemental elemental damage, etc...) There are even quite a few builds that are popular in parties that neglect a damage source altogether, although they're usually hard to solo with. (Nannybots and Intimitanks are examples)

The key to any successful multiclass build is to keep your goals clearly in mind from before you start the planning, and to be ready to experiment a little as you go.

"The only benchmark of blah blah is landing blah on Orthons in Amrath" is just nonsense. Can a Barbarian 20 land Web on Orthons? No. Does he need to? Again, no.

Can a Tucaw build chop Orthons into teeny bits while keeping himself healed? Experience suggests the answer is YES. As long as he doesn't just stand there spamming Web.

Yes, deep multiclassing limits spellcasting power, but that does not necessarily mean it's a bad thing IF YOUR GOAL IS NOT SIMPLY SPELLCASTING.

Thrudh
09-16-2010, 03:04 PM
I think his point is that DC-based spells are mostly worthless for a deep multi-class caster... And I agree with that...

Web may remain semi-useful in some dungeons because many monsters have poor Reflex saves (Usually the melee monsters have high Fortitude saves, and the caster monsters have high Will saves). Almost all other DC-based spells will not land for a 12/8 type of build

Usually the only point of deep multi-classing a wizard/sorc/bard is for the buffs/healing.

My point is that most buffs can be found in clickable form nowadays... I believe Turbine has done a poor job with that, making too many spells available to everyone..

They have made too many clickables. One can be a pure fighter and still cast most of the low-level useful wizard spells.

I dislike the silver flame potions too... I don't like that min/max pure DPS barbarians or fighters can achieve that kind of healing power without grouping or without multi-classing...

EKKM
09-16-2010, 03:06 PM
Sounds good. I might try one someday.
I think it would be a little weak, but not as much as most people think.
Curious about his stats though.
You need a very high (maxed out) Int to be effective with many spells. But even a lowly Hypno is still very effective at end game if you can get them to fail their saves.
Seems you prob went Dex/finesse.
My Drow Wiz has maxed Int and a very good dex....actually melees ok, so I can see that it is possible. But Drow have much better stats than even a 32 pt Elf. (for any build with Dex/Int/Char anyway)

I think your build (even though not listed) is probably a decent one. Not Uber but decent.

I was going to reply to this but saw it was from 07 so decided not to.



According to Airanticuss Web does not work on devils in VoD.
Which now proves that you should not use Web...ever.

Thanks Airanticuss.


On a side note the I had SUPER fun playing my ranger/wizard last nite!

He was running around with paralyzing bow and Web and IMOBILIZED the ENTIRE troll tribe!

I also magic-missled them while stuck.
Thanks to Airanticuss's opinion though I now have to delete the spell from my hot-bar.
:(

Airanticuss hates fun.

For some reason I found the underlined line very funny +1

Gawna
09-16-2010, 03:36 PM
According to Airanticuss Web does not work on devils in VoD.
Which now proves that you should not use Web...ever.

Thanks Airanticuss.




That's actually not what he said at all.

Aranticus
09-16-2010, 05:04 PM
did you check out my spellsinger build on ddowiki? It basically just did everything you said. I'm also looking to change it into kensai2/pale master1 but I have yet to serously look into pale master abilities

I still stand my statement, in fact I'm going to add on. Deep caster multiclasses are going to suffer heavily in terms of nuke dps, spell dc and spell pen. To clarify, can it be as effective as a melée? No. Can it be as effective as a caster? No. But what it can do is to be flexible and perform multiple roles, think bard (thou bard songs are a different topic entirely)


The reality of planning ANY multiclass build is: does what you get from multiclassing make up for what you lose in the trade-off?


If you're going to be deep-multiclassing a spellcaster, there *are* legitimate reasons to do so. You're not going to be landing instakills in Amrath, but maybe you weren't planning on it to begin with.

It is possible to have a build strategy that uses weapons for damage, and has the spellcasting there for other reasons (buffing, healing, utility, supplemental elemental damage, etc...) There are even quite a few builds that are popular in parties that neglect a damage source altogether, although they're usually hard to solo with. (Nannybots and Intimitanks are examples)

The key to any successful multiclass build is to keep your goals clearly in mind from before you start the planning, and to be ready to experiment a little as you go.

"The only benchmark of blah blah is landing blah on Orthons in Amrath" is just nonsense. Can a Barbarian 20 land Web on Orthons? No. Does he need to? Again, no.

Can a Tucaw build chop Orthons into teeny bits while keeping himself healed? Experience suggests the answer is YES. As long as he doesn't just stand there spamming Web.

Yes, deep multiclassing limits spellcasting power, but that does not necessarily mean it's a bad thing IF YOUR GOAL IS NOT SIMPLY SPELLCASTING.

Entelech
09-16-2010, 06:05 PM
To clarify, can it be as effective as a melée? No. Can it be as effective as a caster?

Sigh... You're still missing the point.

I think what you meant is "Can it beat a pure caster at casting? No, not unless the pure build or the player sucks. Can it beat a pure melee at meleeing? No, not unless the pure build is bad or the player inept."

Being "effective" is a totally different ballgame however. Or, to put it more simply: "There's more than one way to skin an Orthon."

Entelech
09-16-2010, 06:11 PM
Also note, multiclassing allows taking advantages of certain synergies that do not make a lot of sense for the pure archetypes.

For example, the Torc of Prince Raiyum-de.

If you are a classic robe-wearing, maxed-out Sorcerer or Wizard 20 with the capstone and all the bling for laying down magical destruction, the Torc is still considered good gear ... there are few ways of recovering spell points for free ... but it is NOT in your best interest to get beaten up to make good use of it. With a deep multiclass, this equation changes.

Again, it's a matter of weighing what you gain versus what you have to give up.

Aranticus
09-16-2010, 07:49 PM
Sigh... You're still missing the point.

I think what you meant is "Can it beat a pure caster at casting? No, not unless the pure build or the player sucks. Can it beat a pure melee at meleeing? No, not unless the pure build is bad or the player inept."

Being "effective" is a totally different ballgame however. Or, to put it more simply: "There's more than one way to skin an Orthon."

if you look at my entire post and take it into context, you will get what i'm saying. saying that i didnt get the point when i've used the bad as an analogy of how its an amalgam of a divine and arcane class

its a different thing when you say something is effective and when you say "my web is good, i can stick a caster gnoll to the ground". effectiveness is measured by a host of other stuff, ie success rate, grouping synergy, etc. whereas when you say "gnolls get stuck in my web" could mean (1) the gnoll rolled a 1 (2) the gnoll has low reflex save

it is based on this that my bladesinger build is 12ftr/8wiz with kensai2. its an elf, dual rapier wielding, int dumped, high str. its 12ftr is the one that provides the dps via kensai str (endgame 50+ str possible). 8wiz is fully for self buffing, like what you stated. i recognised that if i'm going for dps, then my spell casting is going to hurt and vice versa. in the lower level, this impact is minor but as level increase, it becomes harder for deep MCs to provide good cc/nuking while maintaining high melee performance. as builders, we should be upfront and honest about what can be done, what cannot. if not, a lot of newer player is going to be misleaded into thinking a 10ftr/10wiz offers excellent melee and spellcasting abilities

Mr_Ed7
09-16-2010, 07:57 PM
we should be upfront and honest about what can be done, what cannot. if not, a lot of newer player is going to be misleaded into thinking a 10ftr/10wiz offers excellent melee and spellcasting abilities

I never advocated such thing.

What you have advocated in the past is that this game is not meant to be played for fun.

My toon is the ultimate "in-your-face" that fun can be had regardless.
Your doom and gloom of "Nobody will play with you if you do BLANK" is getting really tiresome, AND that is what is misleading and dishonest.

To say that the 10/10 will not be as good at DPS as another Melee class is like "No duh" or to say that the 10/10 will not be as effective at end game as a 20 wiz is also as obvious as the noise on your face. ;)

Aranticus
09-16-2010, 08:18 PM
Also note, multiclassing allows taking advantages of certain synergies that do not make a lot of sense for the pure archetypes.

For example, the Torc of Prince Raiyum-de.

If you are a classic robe-wearing, maxed-out Sorcerer or Wizard 20 with the capstone and all the bling for laying down magical destruction, the Torc is still considered good gear ... there are few ways of recovering spell points for free ... but it is NOT in your best interest to get beaten up to make good use of it. With a deep multiclass, this equation changes.

Again, it's a matter of weighing what you gain versus what you have to give up.

I would like to see how this point is being made

Aranticus
09-16-2010, 08:48 PM
I never advocated such thing.

What you have advocated in the past is that this game is not meant to be played for fun.

My toon is the ultimate "in-your-face" that fun can be had regardless.
Your doom and gloom of "Nobody will play with you if you do BLANK" is getting really tiresome, AND that is what is misleading and dishonest.

To say that the 10/10 will not be as good at DPS as another Melee class is like "No duh" or to say that the 10/10 will not be as effective at end game as a 20 wiz is also as obvious as the noise on your face. ;)

its not doom and gloom that i advocate but a fact. will your social circle accept your toon? sure. hordo of khyber did shroud with his guildies at L4. there are also many instances where players are getting invited into groups put up by friends. will the L4 hordo get into a pug shroud group? unlikely. if you looked into the forums, there are also many such instances. AA toons and rogues are having a hard time finding raid groups as well much less deep multiclasses

to say that a deep multiclass has no problems getting into any group is misleading and dishonest. 1/2 and 1/2 unfortunately do not make 1 in ddo when it comes into builds. can you have fun with such a group? sure, there will be people who will make allowances for you. you will not be holding an important role for sure. its like the 6th open party slot, if all important roles are filled, no one would really mind you piking along

Osharan_Tregarth
09-16-2010, 08:51 PM
My toon is the ultimate "in-your-face" that fun can be had regardless.
Your doom and gloom of "Nobody will play with you if you do BLANK" is getting really tiresome, AND that is what is misleading and dishonest.



We've had your specific character with us in shroud runs as a fill in for the last spot before, although not for quite some time...

About the only useful purpose it served was so we could have someone else to make fun of in guild chat.

If someone else looking at this build gets a kick out of that sort of thing, then yes.. It results in a fun build.

Otherwise... Not so much.

Entelech
09-16-2010, 08:56 PM
The difference is you're saying something is BAD. I'm saying something is NOT AS GOOD AS.

If the goal is to educate the hypothetical newbie on this forum, then the "YOU MUST HAVE <insert absurd number here> OR YOU SUCK AND ARE A GIMP. PLEASE COMMIT SUICIDE IRL!!!111oneoneone" attitude some of the posters have is *at least* as off-putting and destructive as the "Go ahead, pick classes and stats at random, you'll be fine at endgame" line is.

Yes, I am using the overstated strawman of both of our positions, for the purpose of illustration. But it DOES underscore the point of my quibble with your position.

Also, this elitist attitude leads to a badly-played, inept Wizard 20 winning the LFM lottery, whereas a WELL-played and effective multiclass combo will get rejected at a glance because "Multiclasses are BAD, Mmkay?"

Aranticus
09-16-2010, 09:10 PM
Also, this elitist attitude leads to a badly-played, inept Wizard 20 winning the LFM lottery, whereas a WELL-played and effective multiclass combo will get rejected at a glance because "Multiclasses are BAD, Mmkay?"

i do not reject people at a glance. i'm saying there are people who will reject other at a glance. like you, i value competency more. i typically give people 2 chances. you can be a deep MC, but you play well, i'll let you in my future groups. otoh, you could be a pure barb and you totally sucked at it, 2 time same thing happens, you go on my list

that said, the main thing in playing a toon well is understanding its limitations and if possible use it to your advantage ie low ac with prot, dodge, etc items = bad, low ac with guards = good. for a MC melee/caster, recognising that your hp and/or ac wont be as high as that of pure melee is impt, you start to meander towards spellbased protection such as displace, stoneskin, fireshield etc to mitigate damage. dps wont be high but its possible for you to fight in your firewall, etc

Entelech
09-16-2010, 09:24 PM
We seem to be in about 98% agreement on principles here.

The reason I am being kind of a stickler for the "it's a trade-off" rather than using the word "bad" is simply because people DO make group decisions at a glance, based upon incomplete information.

You know it happens. Look at all the so-called Battle-Clerics running around in PUGs at the moment. In theory, the 18 Cleric / 2 Fighter ought to be the uberest of uber. In practice, a decent battle cleric is like Bigfoot. It should be pretty awesome, but nobody's ever actually seen one.

Meanwhile a lot of experimental builds get declined at a glance, without even a cursory /tell of "So...what is your multiclass mix intended to accomplish?"

Simply put, people are ignorant and lazy. If someone says "Multiclassing is BAD" they turn off their brains at that point and REFUSE TO THINK about anything beyond that point, even if we both know that "Multiclassing is bad" is a gross oversimplification and even misleading.

Osharan_Tregarth
09-16-2010, 09:49 PM
The difference is you're saying something is BAD. I'm saying something is NOT AS GOOD AS.



There is a good arguement here. But the specific example given by the OP push things from the NOT AS GOOD AS into the BAD.

Most people that run a melee caster splash realize that they will (as a general rule) not be able to land their spells that require a dc worth a ****. So you select spells that either don't have a save, or don't depend as much on saves, like direct damage spells.

An evenly split caster/anything build that advocates using web as a crowd control spell will occasionally get lucky, but that's about it. It's not worth even casting the spell (in at level quests) due to the limited amount of times it will actually do anything.

Aranticus
09-16-2010, 10:26 PM
Simply put, people are ignorant and lazy. If someone says "Multiclassing is BAD" they turn off their brains at that point and REFUSE TO THINK about anything beyond that point, even if we both know that "Multiclassing is bad" is a gross oversimplification and even misleading.

in the same way others, that are ignorant and lazy, think that their MC will have the perfect abilities and justify using the 5% that works. they too turn off their brains at that point, refuse to think about anything beyong that point, even if we both know that the "particular" multiclassing is bad, which is a gross oversimplification and even misleading

:p

Entelech
09-16-2010, 10:58 PM
Except..

If a player is kidding himself about how fantastic his multiclass build is, he's only hurting himself, and he's likely to eventually figure it out, no matter how dense he is.

If a player is rejecting others as 'gimped' based on mistaken assumptions, he is unlikely to ever wise up, and he hurts a lot of others.

Hurting yourself because you're stupid is called evolution. Hurting others because you're stupid is called Middle Management.

Aranticus
09-16-2010, 11:49 PM
If a player is kidding himself about how fantastic his multiclass build is, he's only hurting himself, and he's likely to eventually figure it out, no matter how dense he is.

its not simple as you put it. if this player post the build on the forums or give advice in the general channels, newer players can be easily misleaded about the actual worth. this can also do a lot of harm to many people. to quote an example, a guy was talking about how important dex is to a melee ranger that it can increase ac as well as to hit with weapon finesse. he then describes how he dual wields scimitar as hes an elf getting nice bonuses. few days later, a new player asked about how his high dex scimitar wielding elf keeps missing stuff on elite settings

Entelech
09-17-2010, 02:31 AM
Look, the original thread was raised from the deeps by necromancy so foul that no Pale Master would touch it. Anybody who blindly implements a three-year-old build off the forums is DUE for a little "evolution".

Clearly, the OP thinks the build is a blast and a half to play, and clearly everybody else on the server has him squelched. Also, the OP is clearly more interested in roleplaying than powergaming.

Maybe, for the OP's particular tastes and playstyle, that build is optimal - in that he has fun playing it.

I'm of the opinion that blindly implementing *any* build lifted straight from the forums is asking for NOT FUN. Each individual player has a unique combination of twitch skills, situational awareness, likes and dislikes, roleplay preferences, and so on. A build that works wonderfully for one player might be only so-so in the hands of another.

So, just maybe, the noobs need to see the OP's build, and maybe try it out. It'll certainly give them a little taste of everything, and their NEXT character will almost certainly be a lot better suited to their needs. EVERYONE'S first character sucked.

Entelech
09-17-2010, 02:42 AM
Oh...and one more thing.

Kicking the original poster in the teeth isn't really all that classy. It's far better to respectfully suggest specific "improvements" to the build - and the rationale behind them - or to let the thread die quietly.

Beating up on a person who posts a bad build only (1) makes them defensive and unlikely to listen, and (2) makes you look like a jerk.

Admittedly, if you want to be tactful about it, hashing out all the decisions on that Wizard / Ranger could take a while until you get it focused into something more coherent. But this IS an internet forum. If you had anything better to do, you wouldn't be posting here in the first place.

Celestialbeast
09-17-2010, 02:44 AM
You know it happens. Look at all the so-called Battle-Clerics running around in PUGs at the moment. In theory, the 18 Cleric / 2 Fighter ought to be the uberest of uber. In practice, a decent battle cleric is like Bigfoot. It should be pretty awesome, but nobody's ever actually seen one.



You've never played with Numot have you?

Entelech
09-17-2010, 02:48 AM
Newp.

The last "battle cleric" I remember grouping with managed to die FOUR TIMES in Part 1 of the Shroud.

It would have been more, but I was the other healer, and I pocketed her stone.

Ironically, I was playing my 18 FvS / 2 Monk at the time :P

Aranticus
09-17-2010, 03:02 AM
You've never played with Numot have you?

there is also another BC player who posted in the cleric forums with screens of him tanking suulomades

Entelech
09-17-2010, 03:26 AM
So...

We seem to be reaching a point where we can say that multiclass builds - ie Battle Clerics - CAN be useful contributors to groups.

It seems obvious that multiclass builds CAN also be gimps.

Furthermore, pure builds can be either effective or lame depending on stats, gear, feat choices...and the guy playing them.

Therefore...

Can we simply agree that the build in question is not gimp because it is multiclassed, but rather agree that it is gimp because the various components of the build do not work together well, or build upon each other effectively? It is gimp because there is no synergy.

I realize this may seem like an anal-retentive detail to some people, but anal-retentive detail-work is what all good builds are about.

Aranticus
09-17-2010, 03:50 AM
So...

We seem to be reaching a point where we can say that multiclass builds - ie Battle Clerics - CAN be useful contributors to groups.

It seems obvious that multiclass builds CAN also be gimps.

Furthermore, pure builds can be either effective or lame depending on stats, gear, feat choices...and the guy playing them.

Therefore...

Can we simply agree that the build in question is not gimp because it is multiclassed, but rather agree that it is gimp because the various components of the build do not work together well, or build upon each other effectively? It is gimp because there is no synergy.

I realize this may seem like an anal-retentive detail to some people, but anal-retentive detail-work is what all good builds are about.

/qft +1 even

Talon_Moonshadow
09-17-2010, 06:32 AM
I was going to reply to this but saw it was from 07 so decided not to.




For some reason I found the underlined line very funny +1

Well, end game is no longer 16. And saves have gone out the roof since I wrote what I did. (HP also)

And never did see his build.

But now we have LRs, and GRs.... no reason he cannot adapt his char in some way that is effective and fun for him to pay IMO.

Mr_Ed7
09-17-2010, 01:08 PM
We've had your specific character with us in shroud runs as a fill in for the last spot before, although not for quite some time...

About the only useful purpose it served was so we could have someone else to make fun of in guild chat.

If someone else looking at this build gets a kick out of that sort of thing, then yes.. It results in a fun build.

Otherwise... Not so much.

No I have mostly retired him to play my 7Ranger/7Wizard, 7Fighter/7Cleric and my 7Fighter/7Cleric.

I am glad you enjoy snickering at me Osharan.

I have grown to not care too much for raids as it were.
If my toons are not being chosen for groups...so be it.

On another post I alluded to myself not "no-ing" people.
The same culprits are at it again. Saying "no" you can not do this.

I got to level 20 with fun and little bias.

Maybe others should make the same build.

Because it is the best most powerful build ever. :rolleyes:

Mr_Ed7
03-21-2012, 05:08 PM
CAN'T WAIT... to level my 10 Fighter/10 Wizard to 13 Fighter/12 Wizard!

Other updates:
My Fighter/Cleric is capped at 10/10 & my Ranger/Wizard "Special Artillery" is 10/9.

I have also started a Paladin/Sorcerer "Dragon-Knight" who is focussing on elemetal spells.

8 Fighter/ 8 Rogue "Stealth Fighter" about to be released as well!

How fun with the builds!
There are a lot of combos!

Zeruell
03-21-2012, 05:17 PM
13 Fighter/12 Wizard!
I thought the epic levels were to be handled separately from standard (heroic) character levels?

Mr_Ed7
03-23-2012, 07:36 AM
You may be right!

Entelech
03-26-2012, 11:40 AM
Dude, you necroed your own thread...

Bad form.

ThePrincipal
03-26-2012, 01:14 PM
Pally/Sorc sounds awesome btw.

Phidius
03-26-2012, 01:40 PM
Pally/Sorc sounds awesome btw.

It does, doesn't it? Right up to the point where you try to put it together, and what you gain doesn't make up for what you've lost.

Mr_Ed7
03-26-2012, 03:52 PM
I may be showing my age, but by "necroing" did I kill it?
I dunna this thread is several years old.

I think part of the trick of playing these types of characters is making the best with what is available. Whatever low level spells I have I tend to "spam" them.
So the Pally/Sorce spams fire spells... that's his thing.

I love casting a web spell in say AMRATH and say that it must suck to be a named monster to get stuck by a level 2 web-spell cast by a level 10 wizard... so things CAN work!

karnokvolrath
03-26-2012, 04:02 PM
Meh.

Osharan_Tregarth
03-26-2012, 06:18 PM
Pally/Sorc sounds awesome btw.

When this thread was first started, the various PRC's were only a pipe dream, and a lot of the commonly used spells didn't exist yet. I think now, that some of the Paladin/Sorc variants could be made to work. You would be a reasonable dps build, depending on your spell selection and what class split you decided on. It would be very tough to fit all of the feats in however.

The Tucaw build has always been pretty strong once you got it geared up, but it's a lot more of a "splash" variant than a straight 10/10 split, or something along those lines. I'd probably say that a 14/6 Sorc/Paladin could be made to work these days. Or perhaps a 12/6/2 Sorc/Paladin/Rogue.

It would also depend on what your version of "end game" play is. For leveling to 20, pretty much any random collection of character levels can work out these days. For raiding or epics, you'd need to keep in mind that if someone is looking for a "caster" for a party/raid, you're not generally going to be it. You're gonna be dps, if you want to fill in a party slot.

Zachski
03-26-2012, 06:46 PM
I'm actually interested in what a modern Battlemage would look like.

Not just a "Fighter-Mage", but rather, a mage who picks up a nice two-handed weapon. (As opposed to the Monk Splashes that seem common today)

donblas
03-26-2012, 07:00 PM
I always played an FMU in PnP when it was just a couple of A5 booklets, but am not totally sure of the best way to recreate them in DDO.

At the moment I'm trying a first life lvl6 archmage. As an elf she has proficiency Longsword and longbow, so I don't want to splash any fighter/ranger levels (but obviously the extra feats might be useful).

She has mithral chain shirt and small shield for the fightery look (0% spell failure).

She has 116 HP, 685 SP, AC34. STR19, CON 19, INT 25.

Plan to switch to mithral full plate and large shield (will have 0% spell failure chance) at lvl14 - this is obviously a style build, not a power one cos I know AC will start to become problematic at that sort of level. Will probably use divine power clickies (a lot of them) to at least pretend to have close combat capabilities (maybe add arcane archer as well but feat starved).

Entelech
03-26-2012, 10:54 PM
I may be showing my age, but by "necroing" did I kill it?
I dunna this thread is several years old.

Thread Necromancy is the practice of posting bizarre and blasphemous incantations in a message thread that has been dead for long periods of time, in an effort to raise it from the dead in a shambling semblance of brainless unlife.

If you have a new idea, start a new thread. It's good internet manners.



BTW, Necromantic posting is even worse if the thread you are attempting to reanimate is:

(1) very, very, absurdly long
(2) One you started yourself
(3) One in which you were involved in a flamewar.
(4) One in which you LOST said flamewar.

Yvonnel-1
03-27-2012, 02:21 AM
and the dead (threads) shall rise ...

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7651/lichh.jpg
By allystria (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/allystria) at 2012-01-18

Mr_Ed7
03-27-2012, 10:28 AM
and the dead (threads) shall rise ...

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7651/lichh.jpg
By allystria (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/allystria) at 2012-01-18

Ah well it DESERVED a re-examination do to the upcoming update. Otherwise ...ignornance is bliss when it come to "supposed" internet niceties.

What had not considered is a TWO-HANDED WEAPON/CASTER build.
That is one I have not done...

So all is not lost by "necroing".
A re-newed conversation started, and I learned a thing or TWO.

Mr_Ed7
03-27-2012, 10:34 AM
When this thread was first started, the various PRC's were only a pipe dream, and a lot of the commonly used spells didn't exist yet. I think now, that some of the Paladin/Sorc variants could be made to work. You would be a reasonable dps build, depending on your spell selection and what class split you decided on. It would be very tough to fit all of the feats in however.

The Tucaw build has always been pretty strong once you got it geared up, but it's a lot more of a "splash" variant than a straight 10/10 split, or something along those lines. I'd probably say that a 14/6 Sorc/Paladin could be made to work these days. Or perhaps a 12/6/2 Sorc/Paladin/Rogue.

It would also depend on what your version of "end game" play is. For leveling to 20, pretty much any random collection of character levels can work out these days. For raiding or epics, you'd need to keep in mind that if someone is looking for a "caster" for a party/raid, you're not generally going to be it. You're gonna be dps, if you want to fill in a party slot.

Good points. Although, it was always possible to level to 20 with an odd mix.

Me? I tend to run with guildies or join ALLIANCE raids.
Since WE tend to play for fun, my friends could care less if I was wearing rags and carrying a club.

It is a moot point though to yet bring-up again that a "partial" caster would ever replace a character with a "significant" amount of caster levels.

Part of the joy of playing these builds is knowing that the odds are against you and you are somewhat handicapped.

Mr_Ed7
03-27-2012, 10:37 AM
Thread Necromancy is the practice of posting bizarre and blasphemous incantations in a message thread that has been dead for long periods of time, in an effort to raise it from the dead in a shambling semblance of brainless unlife.

If you have a new idea, start a new thread. It's good internet manners.



BTW, Necromantic posting is even worse if the thread you are attempting to reanimate is:

(1) very, very, absurdly long
(2) One you started yourself
(3) One in which you were involved in a flamewar.
(4) One in which you LOST said flamewar.

Your comments about a necroed thread are in poor taste.
This is far from your insulting "brainless" comment.

It is only in poor taste to you "dude".
You are one of those players that say "stop yelling at me" when I use caps too, eh?

LawstCawz
03-27-2012, 10:50 AM
What had not considered is a TWO-HANDED WEAPON/CASTER build.
That is one I have not done...


Have you tried a shield?

THE ONE TRUE DOORSTOP FIGHTER/WIZARD

Alrik_Fassbauer
03-27-2012, 12:49 PM
My freshly level 6 wizard is currently hacking his way through the Splinterskull Fortress by using a shortsword of lesser Goblin Bane or his Nicked Heavy Mace (http://ddowiki.com/page/Nicked_Heavy_Mace) , a chitin shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Chitin_Shield), a robe of Stability (http://ddowiki.com/page/Stability) or a Robe of Invulnerability (http://ddowiki.com/page/Invulnerability), and Magic Armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Mage_Armor)/Magic Shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shield_%28spell%29) buffs, plus several Guild Ship buffs, too.

Edit : He wears a "lesser fire guard" robe right now.

Plus the "Insightful Goggles" (http://ddowiki.com/page/Goggles_of_Insight).

And of course the most essential thing : "Master's Touch" (http://ddowiki.com/page/Master%27s_Touch), the spell.

If I don't forget it, he gets "Heroism" (http://ddowiki.com/page/Heroism), too.

And sometimes he casts a "lesser death aura", too. But I'm still unsure whether it helps or not, because i can hardly make out which damages to foes come from which things.

I think he has a +1 Strength bracers piece, too.

Edit : The complete character as he is right now : http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/daracaram
Most of his better items came a) from my other character or b) by using the free "jewel of fortune" from the current "Greater Jewel Of Fortune" coupon code thing which the DDO shop gives away for free right now (until March 29th; see here : http://www.ddo.com/de/ddostoresale or here : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=366759 ).

Right now he is going through it fairly well (difficulty: normal, quets 1-3 right now) and he has never died there so far - which is of course because a Cleric hireling and a summoned monster are travelling with him.

Surprisingly, even for me as the player, he is very capable of just hacking his way through, instead of permanently casting spells.

Mr_Ed7
03-27-2012, 02:41 PM
Have you tried a shield?

THE ONE TRUE DOORSTOP FIGHTER/WIZARD

Ah yes the DOORSTOP Paladin post someone made...

It all comes down to how someone wants to play.

I do not tell others how to play, but there are still some players that get off on just that.

Mr_Ed7
03-27-2012, 02:42 PM
My freshly level 6 wizard is currently hacking his way through the Splinterskull Fortress by using a shortsword of lesser Goblin Bane or his Nicked Heavy Mace (http://ddowiki.com/page/Nicked_Heavy_Mace) , a chitin shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Chitin_Shield), a robe of Stability (http://ddowiki.com/page/Stability) or a Robe of Invulnerability (http://ddowiki.com/page/Invulnerability), and Magic Armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Mage_Armor)/Magic Shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shield_%28spell%29) buffs, plus several Guild Ship buffs, too.

Edit : He wears a "lesser fire guard" robe right now.

Plus the "Insightful Goggles" (http://ddowiki.com/page/Goggles_of_Insight).

And of course the most essential thing : "Master's Touch" (http://ddowiki.com/page/Master%27s_Touch), the spell.

If I don't forget it, he gets "Heroism" (http://ddowiki.com/page/Heroism), too.

And sometimes he casts a "lesser death aura", too. But I'm still unsure whether it helps or not, because i can hardly make out which damages to foes come from which things.

I think he has a +1 Strength bracers piece, too.

Edit : The complete character as he is right now : http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/daracaram
Most of his better items came a) from my other character or b) by using the free "jewel of fortune" from the current "Greater Jewel Of Fortune" coupon code thing which the DDO shop gives away for free right now (until March 29th; see here : http://www.ddo.com/de/ddostoresale or here : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=366759 ).

Right now he is going through it fairly well (difficulty: normal, quets 1-3 right now) and he has never died there so far - which is of course because a Cleric hireling and a summoned monster are travelling with him.

Surprisingly, even for me as the player, he is very capable of just hacking his way through, instead of permanently casting spells.

Keep it up!
Have fun with it, that is more imortant than ANYTHING else!

Alrik_Fassbauer
03-29-2012, 04:33 AM
Have fun with it, that is more imortant than ANYTHING else!

I agree, thank you. :)

ThePrincipal
03-29-2012, 04:52 PM
I rolled a 17cleric/2ranger/1barb elf for a while.

i went barb for the movement speed, ranger for the twf feat without meeting the dex requirement, and elf for bonuses with scimi's (racial and unyielding path). I actually called this ol' girl Druid but killed her off for the slot once the real thing was annouced.

Figther casters are great fun. keep it up.

Rogann
03-29-2012, 09:38 PM
Not viable at all. People laugh when they see the class split.etc.etc.etc

Alrik_Fassbauer
03-30-2012, 07:44 AM
They might laugh, but I can decide not to care.

However, if they believe that PGs require to consist of certain hard-wired classes only, then one might get a problem.

Then it's what I call conservatism and traditionalism excluding more creative things. As it often happens in real life as well.

What's then needed are simply PUGs where the "outcasts" stick together. THEY know what their characters are capable of doing !

Mr_Ed7
03-30-2012, 03:30 PM
Is the multi-class "gimp" player actually the more skilled player?

Well sure. They take a perceived "handicap" and which forces them to play better and know their toon's strengths & weaknesses.

Just a thought.

Entelech
03-30-2012, 04:37 PM
If you want to talk about re-evaluating old builds in light of speculation about the upcoming expansion, start a new thread. That way folks don't have to read pages and pages of stuff about obsolete build info just to get to what you want to talk about now.

That's the reason for the "so-called internet niceties."

decease
03-31-2012, 01:12 AM
tiny bit confused.. unless you mean melee pm i don't really see how it be done. i mean if you splash your dc/sr/cl gonna be a bit lower..not likely to be too much of use in epic

voxson5
03-31-2012, 04:07 AM
Builds like this are not supposed to be the most 'optimal' (and I use that term loosely), they are about having fun and enjoying your way of playing!

A build like this could... Set up mobs with debuffs, lay down damaging AOEs, throw some dots, mobs close in, you can make use of tactics by sundering, tripping, stunning, turtle up or start swinging with self-buffed goodness. You can be a one man army :)

Aurora1979
03-31-2012, 05:04 AM
Builds like this are not supposed to be the most 'optimal' (and I use that term loosely), they are about having fun and enjoying your way of playing!

A build like this could... Set up mobs with debuffs, lay down damaging AOEs, throw some dots, mobs close in, you can make use of tactics by sundering, tripping, stunning, turtle up or start swinging with self-buffed goodness. You can be a one man army :)

The problem is DDO is a bit more narrow then we like to admit. Im no game programmer so I dont know why it is but with your example there,

Debuffs will be ok, damaging AOE's will be very weak and saved against, DOTs will be ok, tactics will be weak at higher levels, turtle up and ac will be low (as with most chars) and swinging a weap far less effectivly then a full, or mostly, class of the same level.

I applaud "odd" builds in DDO and dont overly care what people run. And in PnP for sure it can work.

However, these types of threads never make it clear to newer players, while builds like these discussed will work you will be below par for alot of the things you do. You will need equipment to close that gap and game knowledge to make it even better but, come end game you will find things alot more difficult then if you made a morte common build.

I know "cookie cutters" are boring and deviating from them is always ok BUT they have been made and designed but clever people who spend hours working the numbers and squeezing things in to make the build work and any sacrifices minimal.

Alrik_Fassbauer
03-31-2012, 05:41 AM
They take a perceived "handicap" and which forces them to play better and know their toon's strengths & weaknesses.

That's what I think as well.

It's simply teaching you to get around the weaknesses.

It's like in the Star Wars universe flying a TIE Fighter : It has no shields ...
None at all. And because of that, those who survive must be double deadly compared to the X-Wings that have ...


I know "cookie cutters" are boring and deviating from them is always ok BUT they have been made and designed but clever people who spend hours working the numbers and squeezing things in to make the build work and any sacrifices minimal.

Yes, it's a case of efficiency.

And I think that's a real-life thing, too. Nowadays, with the computer taking over whole parts of Real Life, and everything being evaluated in terms of economy ("does it provide profits ? does it mean losses ? is it efficient ?"), people rather tend to turn towards more efficient builds.

It's like ... buying pre-baked pizza compared to making your pizza with your own hands (and I did ! - It was rough, but very, very tasty !).

Zachski
04-04-2012, 03:30 PM
^

Incidentally, the home-made pizza generally tastes a lot better than store-bought pizza, as long as you follow directions.

Same goes for builds like this.

Also, as far as I know, thread necromancy isn't against the rules on this forum. This was an interesting thread to bring back up.

Phidius
04-04-2012, 03:44 PM
^

Incidentally, the home-made pizza generally tastes a lot better than store-bought pizza, as long as you follow directions.
...

... and use 3 sticks of butter :D

What most people don't understand is that a major part of a toon's power comes from their gear - and a build that is fun to play will command more than its share of gear.

I played a 12 Fighter/7 Monk/1 Rog, and it was pathetic compared to my 12 Wiz/6 Rngr/2 Rog simply because it wasn't geared nearly as well.

Cyr
04-04-2012, 03:48 PM
Is the multi-class "gimp" player actually the more skilled player?

Well sure. They take a perceived "handicap" and which forces them to play better and know their toon's strengths & weaknesses.

Just a thought.

No, building a bad build does not make you a better player. It merely means you have built a bad build.

Entelech
04-04-2012, 08:54 PM
Sigh...

My general take on multiclass builds in general is this:

(1) You need to have a specific role in mind when you plan the build. i.e. Tank, DPS, Healer, Soloist, whatever. Pick no more than two.

(2) You need the components the multiclass mix to have synergy with each other, in a way that contributes to your intended role(s). If there's no synergy, why bother?

(3) Finally, examine and plan your build in detail, examining each choice as a trade-off comparison against proven, well-understood builds intended to fill specific roles.


I'm playing a 12 Wizard / 6 Fighter / 2 Rogue Pale Master tank who's farming epics on his second life. He's quite viable at endgame, but it required a lot of careful planning and a lot of gear farming.

ThePrincipal
04-15-2012, 12:45 AM
Ed, are any of your fighter/wizard builds Elf and use armor? just curious if you use arcane fluidity.

and do you prefer the ranger/wiz or fighter/wiz?

Entelech
04-17-2012, 09:21 PM
No, building a bad build does not make you a better player. It merely means you have built a bad build.

More to the point, part of being a good player is RECOGNIZING a bad build and FIXING it.

Also, no build can be evaluated as "good" or "bad" independently of the person playing it. Each player has certain strengths and weaknesses in their playstyle, and if a build emphasizes a player's weaknesses and fails to use their strengths, it might be a good build in another person's hands, but is a bad one in theirs.

There do exist builds that are inherently bad in an absolute sense, but those are usually pretty easy to spot.

Mr_Ed7
12-12-2012, 09:32 AM
Ed, are any of your fighter/wizard builds Elf and use armor? just curious if you use arcane fluidity.

and do you prefer the ranger/wiz or fighter/wiz?

Yes. I am "necroing" this thread again.

I feel somewhat (very) vindicated by the EPIC destinies ladies & gentleman, not to mention the introduction of LOLTH my character's deite.
I used to be reminded that Lolth was not of the Eberron world. She is now!

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand. I was able to further the arc of my Fighter-Wizard, the homage toon to the original Fighter-Magicuser!

Luckily I started in the WIZARD sphere of influence, and I have already reached the end of some lines of the tree that features such powers as FORCE STORM to go with my already force themed toon.

My guildies have caught up to me now as well. Since most roles are filled in the party, it allows me the luxury of playing such a toon in our group.

I am still shooting massive amounts of magic missles, thanks to enhacnements and the regenerating of spell points some time ago; I have constant use of missles spells.

I can now call a LIVING SPELL as a pet. Force storm combined with the LIVING SPELL does thousands of hit points of damage.

Thanks to some new armor and helmet skins, Sicarii now looks like the Drow of his beloved Underdark.

Oh, I like the Fighter-Wizard best.

count_spicoli
12-12-2012, 10:09 AM
glad you are enjoying this build. Tried this build and much like the soul.survivor found it very lack luster. After 3 lives as kensai melee dps really seemed lackluster. Especially after level 12. But as far as getting in parties i take the first people to click my lfms on 99%of quests. As long as you enjoy the build thats all that really matters.

unbongwah
12-12-2012, 03:03 PM
This thread has more returns from the dead than Jason... :cool:

What's your current build like, Mr. Ed?

Mr_Ed7
12-12-2012, 03:12 PM
This thread has more returns from the dead than Jason... :cool:

What's your current build like, Mr. Ed?

10 fighter/ 10 wizard Epic Magister 3
duel-wield khopesh, force/evoker speced


Some see toons as math problems with but one answer....
I liken my toons to a Dali painting!

Mr_Ed7
12-12-2012, 03:14 PM
also yes I use arcane fluididty and wear TWILIGHT CELEDTRIAL armor at the moment.

unbongwah
12-12-2012, 03:24 PM
10 fighter/ 10 wizard Epic Magister 3
duel-wield khopesh, force/evoker speced
What do you think of, say, monk 2 / ftr 6 / wiz 12? Same number of feats, but gain lvl 6 spells, Evasion, and PM II or AM III (spammable Chain Missiles FTW! :D). Lose some HPs and Haste Boost, but overall seems like an improvement. But I'm just theory-crafting right now.

I liken my toons to a Dali painting!
LOL +1 just for that :cool:

Entelech
12-15-2012, 08:24 PM
I liken my toons to a Dali painting!
I was thinking more like Picasso.

That said, I'm also playing a Battle-Wizard, although I've changed from 6 Fighter to 6 Paladin this life... 12 Wizard / 6 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 5 Epic to be exact. The Defender of Siberys PrE gives +threat to spells AND melee, where Stalwart Defender only helps melee threat...and yes, melee damage is seriously lackluster with these builds. Also, I had a fair bit of Charisma on the build in any case, what with Intimidate and UMD, so the Pally also helped out on saves.

The Draconic Incarnation Epic Destiny does a lot to fix the overall DPS situation, though, and the Pale Master / Defender of Siberys combo still gives amazing survivability.


I used to be reminded that Lolth was not of the Eberron world. She is now!
Nope, sorry, she's in Forgotten Realms, not Eberron. She IS in DDO though. But the Eberron parallel-universe twin of Llolth left Eberron, traveled to the Forgotten Realms, and got absorbed by Llolth...so Eberron is even MORE free of the taint of Llolth than it was before the expansion.

lexiagears
12-15-2012, 09:42 PM
The wheels on the bus go round and round.


AlphaTanks/AlphaSorc/AlphaKleric/AlphaRage/AlphaJudge
Tactical Legion Guild.

Mr_Ed7
12-17-2012, 02:28 PM
In addition I really like ARCANE TEMPEST aka FORCE STORME. That does THOUSANDS of hit points of damage combined with the Living Meteor Storm.

Also I finally got WHIRLWIND ATTACK.
I had almost forgotten I had all the prereqs for it.

Mr_Ed7
12-25-2013, 07:29 AM
My Drow, Sicarii Darkhour, one of the first on the server 7 years ago, my fourth character, is now level 28.
He is based on the dual class elves and drow of AD&D.
Unfortunately he does not duel-wield hand-crossbows...yet.

He is a duel-wielder who went Khopesh when he acquired the chaosblade.
He currently is a level 10 Fighter & 10 Wizard, a warrior-mage.
He has ranks in KENSEI and ARCANE MAGE specializing in FORCE.

He has 5 EPIC levels as a MAGISTER which gave him several cool abilities my favorite being ARCANE TEMPEST (a better name would be FORCE STORM) which can do anywhere from 700-1200HP/DMG for several rounds or I believe 2500HP/DMG on a crit, don't quote me on that however.

Now finally, 7 years after launch; an enhancement chain has been created SPECIFICALLY for a build as my own, the ELDRITCH KNIGHT.

My end abilities include ELDRITCH TEMPEST which combined with my two-weapon attack releases a FORCE EXPLOSION of about 400HP/DMG to surrounding opponents, AND I now have permanent TENSER'S TRANSFORMATION which does little to impede my spells.

It has been a long journey. I have never had the chance to TR this toon, always looking forward to the next update and playing one of my other 23 toons in the interim.

Fun Stuff.
Thank-you DDO godz for all the years of entertainment.