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Ganadai
02-27-2008, 10:10 AM
Which is better for a Rogue 2/ Wizard 14, a 32 point build human or a 28 point build drow?



Human
(2 Rogue \ 14 Wizard)
Hit Points: 152
Spell Points: 1167
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 16
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 18 28
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)

Concentration 4 22
Disable Device 9 29
Open Lock 3 14
Search 9 28
Use Magic Device 7 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Force of Personality
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I

Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I

Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I

Level 5 (Wizard)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II

Level 7 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II

Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II

Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III

Level 10 (Wizard)

Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III

Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III

Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV

Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I

Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV

Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III




Drow
(2 Rogue \ 14 Wizard)
Hit Points: 120
Spell Points: 1190
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 16
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 20 29
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Concentration 3 20
Disable Device 10 29
Open Lock 4 15
Search 10 32
Use Magic Device 7 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I

Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I

Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I

Level 5 (Wizard)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II

Level 7 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II

Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Heightening I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II

Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III

Level 10 (Wizard)

Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III

Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III

Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV

Level 14 (Wizard)

Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV

Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III

Wu_Jen
02-28-2008, 10:41 AM
Since Human Versatality isn't what it used to be, Drow all the way. +1 DC's and same # of skill points considering that you go 20 INT at creation. Con is a bit low but you can make do with a 12 or 13 TBH.

Edit: Just looked at your #'s. You can even out the Drow and Human, i.e. lower the Drow CHA to 14 and move his/her DEX to 12 then Human and Drow would be the same but for the 12 vs 14 CON and 18 vs 20 INT.

If only we could get 32 pnt Drow and Drow SR got ungimped like the WF Immunities. :( Here's hope for the future!

Ganadai
04-04-2008, 06:44 AM
Alright, so I decided to make it a drow and I'm now level 16. My original design did not include skill points for open lock, and I've come to realize that knock just doesn't cut it at higher levels. People expect a rogue type to not only be able to disarm elite traps, but to open elite locks too. I've also discovered that there is no such thing as touch attacks in DOO which makes DEX absolutely worthless.

I've pulled a +2 INT tome and I'm thinking of starting over and eating it at level 1 to raise my open lock skill. However, I'm stuck in the same situation again.

Would it be better to go with Human or Drow?

I've edited the first post to reflect the new builds. On one hand, Drow are immune to sleep and have SR 11. On the other hand, a Human would get +32 Hit Points, +2 Fort saves, and an extra feat which I could use to get +7 Will saves.

BrotherAsmodi
04-04-2008, 10:29 AM
If only we could get 32 pnt Drow

Drow are actully better than 32pt builds, in PnP an Lvl1 drow is the equivalent to a Lvl3 in the same class of another race.

Ganadai
04-20-2008, 11:11 AM
Since Human Versatality isn't what it used to be, Drow all the way.

Even though Human Versitility isn't what it used to be, it still makes all of the human skills higher than the drow skills.


+1 DC's and same # of skill points considering that you go 20 INT at creation.

The +1 DC's would be nice, but by level 16 they are even, unless I end up eating a +3 on the Drow.



Edit: Just looked at your #'s. You can even out the Drow and Human, i.e. lower the Drow CHA to 14 and move his/her DEX to 12 then Human and Drow would be the same but for the 12 vs 14 CON and 18 vs 20 INT.

I'm really not interested in Dex at all since the only thing it helps with is the Open Locks skill. At level 16 AC doesn't matter at all, and I never used ranged attacks either.

Ganadai
04-20-2008, 11:19 AM
Drow are actully better than 32pt builds, in PnP an Lvl1 drow is the equivalent to a Lvl3 in the same class of another race.

I believe it is relative to the class you are applying it to. I think it is probibly better for a pure rogue build, but In my situation, the +2 Dex does not help much at all, and the -2 Con just sucks. I agree that PnP drow are great, but I can't really say the same for their DDO counter parts.

wolfy42
04-20-2008, 03:14 PM
I'd say Human all the way as long as you have a 32 point builds available.

Here is why:

Drow SR blows long term right now. Stat wise drow gets dex as racial bonuses (fairly worthless to your build) and +dex, Cha, Int as stat bonuses at creation. That is nice but you get +1 int and +1 con (I'm guessing) as a human...which almost equals that out (especially with tomes etc)

In effect actually you end up with 2 exta hp per level due to humans +1 con bonus and no -2 con from drow.

Add to that Human versatility which makes getting a high UMD much easier early on and boosts all your other skills as needed WHILE still giving you saving throw boosts etc also (can even boost your chance to hit for your wounding/paralyze weapons etc in a pinch).

Finally you have a free feat...which might not seem like much but can be used for toughness etc giving you the equivalent of yet another con (Actually slightly more), along with many other stats.

Higher saves as well with the human versatility works great with your evasion.

Also in my opinion human healing boost works well with wand mastery from your wizard levels to boost how much you heal yourself with wands. Not worth maxing the human bonus, but a lvl 1 and maybe lvl 2 is a nice boost to wand healing (And increases healing you get from clerics etc as well...or others using wands on you).

As far as stats you get a bonus to dex from drow....but can go with a repeating Xbow as human and still have a decent dex (boosted by 1 from lvl 2 rogue as well). Start with stats like this:

Str 8 (not going to be meleeing anyway and can cast bulls strength early on, or use a +2 strength item etc)
Dex 15 (8 points)
Con 16 (8 points)
Int 18 (16 points)
wis 08 (0 points)
Cha 08 (0 points).

Human versatility more then compensates for the lower Cha as far as your UMD skill is concerned.
Con 16 starting gets boosted to 17 at lvl 13 when you get human adaptability 2 (+5 con item is easy to get for a 22 con)
Int 18 gets boosted to 19 at lvl 5? (think thats the level) with a +1 increase at lvl 4 already. By lvl 5 you should have the same int as a drow basically.
Dex gets boosted to 16 at lvl 2 rogue. Good for using a bow (or repeater) as backup with status effects (extra feat lets you snag rapid reload early on and repeating xbow at lvl 3 so you can be pretty effective at cursing etc by the min lvl you get a decent weapon....with 32 point builds open to you getting a low lvl cursespewer etc shouldn't be hard).

Skills will end up superior to a drow (especially UMD) due to human versatilities eventual +4 (only can get +1 from rogue).

Thats equivalent eventually to +6 to each stat for skill use purposes.

Higher Hp, More feats early on, Human versatility boost to dmg, attack rolls, skills AND saves for awesome useage throughout the game, same skill points based on int as you lvl up (+1 for being human a level), quite a few more HP then a drow, slightly better self healing and lets be honest here the most important point.

Humans just plain look better then drow in DDO.

Course that is my opinion, but I think most people agree.

So in summry I'd go with the Human build not the Drow. Only time I would go drow is if you don't have 32 point builds open yet.

wolfy42
04-20-2008, 03:29 PM
Ack!! Sorry just saw your actual builds above.

Didn't realize you were going for such a high Cha. Is that for high haggle and UMD?

Even so Human boosts will still give you higher cha based skills with a 14 cha instead of a 16.

So then go with these stats (still have a higher Dex then you because why not make sure always hit within your crit range vs enemies to make the most use out of cursespewers etc.

Str 8 (were on the same page here)
Dex 13 (05) Gets boosted by 1 from rogue..but a +5 dex item later on is easy for a nice boost to hit and saves.
Con 13 (05) Need those hp....+1 at lvl 13
Int 18 (16) duh
Wis 08
cha 14 (06)

If you take your second rogue lvl fairly early you'll have a nice 14 base dex. You can use wand of cats grace (or cast it if you want to use a spell slot) to boost your chance to hit up higher. Bit later you'll have heroism to help even more (can always use DF/Bless clickies if you have to as well and you have human versatility).

Con doesn't give that much of an advantage early on, but eventually it's a 14 base with a +2 tome and +6 item you have decent hp (and just a bears endurance alone isn't too shabby at +4).

Cha is only 14 instead of 16, but human versatility adds 3 more to your skills then you would have as a drow. So in effect you eventually will have a bonus to your cha skills of 6 as a human (2 from base cha before boosts, and 4 from human versatility) as apposed to 4 from the drow (3 from base cha and 1 from rogue skill boost 1).

You end up with more hp then the drow with this setup, and still have a decent dex for ranged attacks.

Ganadai
04-20-2008, 05:51 PM
Didn't realize you were going for such a high Cha. Is that for high haggle and UMD?


It's mainly for the feat Force of Personality which lets me use my Charisma bonus for my will saves instead of my Wisdom bonus. On my current wizard I don't ever wear wisdom items, and don't think I would ever wear one, but I do wear a +6 Cha cloak most of the time. So, in effect, the feat gives me a +7 to my Will saves.

Electric_Pulses
04-20-2008, 09:51 PM
If you were to go drow 1 you look cooler, 2 you would have a better build

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Amazing Build
Level 16 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 14 Wizard)
Hit Points: 120
Spell Points: 1082
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 16
Will: 13

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16) (Level 16)
Strength 8 8 8
Dexterity 10 11 14
Constitution 12 14 14
Intelligence 20 27 29
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 16 18 18

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 14

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16) (Level 16)
Balance 4 8 8
Bluff 4 4 4
Concentration 2 2 2
Diplomacy 8 8 8
Disable Device 10 28 29
Haggle 8 8 8
Heal -1 3 3
Hide 4 8 8
Intimidate 4 4 4
Jump 3 3 3
Listen -1 -1 1
Move Silently 4 8 8
Open Lock 4 16 17
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 10 14 14
Search 10 28 32
Spot 3 12 15
Swim -1 -1 -1
Tumble 4 7 7
Use Magic Device 8 23 26



Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I

Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I

Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I

Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Force I

Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II

Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II

Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+5)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+0.5)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II

Level 9 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+0.5)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III

Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I

Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II

Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III

Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV

Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II

Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II

Level 16 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+0.5)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV



-w/ +6 con item, gr8r false life argonessen favor and minos legens you would have 226 health
-if you were to craft 2 shroud items and clense one I would suggest this, a weapon w/ all negative giving u plus 9 bringing your int to a total of plus 38 and then a piece of clothing or jewelry that went fully positive, first upgrade +10 healthbringing u to 236 then go +50 mana and +2 cha skills, finaly for third upgrade +100 mana and +3 cha skills. that way w/ titan gloves, head of good fortune and gh you could now reach 40umd! (42 if you were to use Rouge Skill Boost). W/ the exceptional bonuses to mana and wielding a skiver you should be around 1550 mana which is pretty good for a multiclass wiz
-w/ ventalated bracers,gh,skill boost,+15 disable item, head of good fortune and +5 thieves tools your disable device should be 67
-w/ openlock +15 item, +5 thieves tools,gh,head of good fortune, and skill boost your open lock should be 50
-w/ search +15 item,gh,head of good fortune, and skill boost your search should be 58
- once again umd will be up to 42
*note* if you want to own in pvp simply redo enhancements so that fire and electric are reverse, w/ the meta magic feats empower spell,maximize,heighten,quicken and extend questing along w/ pvp should be a breeze especially since you will have no failure w/ rez scrolls and heal scrolls
the finals saves for this shouldn't be amazing but still good, after all ur a wizy not a pally
4base+5modifier+4gh+2 luck bonus+1rage+5resistance=21 fortitude save
7base+14modifier+4gh+2 luck bonus+1haste+5resistance=33 reflex save
12base+7modifier+4gh+2 luck bonus+5resistance+2 drow enchantment resistance=32 will save

so in conclusion...
Health: 236
Mana: 1550?
Fort: 21
Ref: 33
Will:32
Disable Device: 67
Open Lock: 50
Search: 58
UMD: 42
Spot: 36
Heal: 22
Tumble: 37
Move Silently: 29
Hide: 29
Which =...
OWNAGE!