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View Full Version : It's Time for Some Ranger Love!



Omega2K
02-24-2008, 10:47 PM
I play a lot of different characters... And for a change of pace, I picked up my Ranger to get her Shroud ready... Let me just say I was shocked at how slow her ranged (bow) DPS is compared to melee... Mages and Clerics are beginning to take off in the kill counts because of instant death spells and rightly so - casters should be incredibly powerful in the high levels. However, what has happened to the true ranged Ranger? Lost along the way it appears.

Four things that we should see for Rangers:

All Pet Spells should be automatically loaded and should not require one of our precious few spell slots. This is done for Cleric's Cure spells so I do not understand why a Ranger should have to sacrifice a Spell Slot for an ability they should have at all times. See the Players' Hand Book. DDO had to make it a spell so we could have pets. Fine. At least you could do is give us that Spell for free and not take away what little the Ranger has to differentiate themselves from other classes.

Secondly, it is time to increase the Ranger's Ranged DPS. I know it can be done. It used to be that way back in Beta but the Devs thought it was too powerful and gimped everyone. I am not saying that all Classes should have their Ranged DPS (Rate of Fire, etc.) increased, just the high-level Rangers (say Level 15+)... At Level 16 Ranger, I should be able to fire as fast as I can click my mouse. Point, click, shoot. Rate of Fire is our bread and butter... Why is it that I feel I have not gotten any better at it since Level 5?

Third, it would be great to have a specialized container like a Quiver to store all of our arrows. Inventory space is at a premium and when you have to carry 1500 Silver Arrows to help kill the boss at the end of The Shroud, you become very restricted on what loot you can actually pick up. Quivers should be available to all classes but they are crucial to a Ranged Combat Ranger.

Lastly, I noticed that my level 16 Ranger is only shooting three arrows at a time with Multi-Shot on... According to the Feat description it should be four. If you could correct this issue and reduce the reset timer on Multi-Shot, I would be much happier in lieu of an overall increase in ROF for Bow Combat.

Thanks for your attention to this important matter.

Sheezgame
02-24-2008, 10:54 PM
As mentioned in the ranger feat thread I suggest the following:

Ranged attack speed should be increased to 90%, either for all ranged, or tie it into a ranger only class feat that we already get, or put in a new class feat to do this at a specific level. This should bring the dps up a little bit more on par with melee, but not quite as fast.


Next to increase damage a bit, change multishot to a stance where you can select how many arrows you want to fire.
2 Arrows: 80% attack speed, -2 attack on second arrow
3 Arrows: 70% attack speed, -4 attack on third arrow
4 Arrows: 60% attack speed, -6 attack on second arrow
5 Arrows: 50% attack speed, -8 attack on third arrow


The pet spell thing would be nice as well, should be easy for them to do and wouldn't be overpowered because:
a) pet's aren't that great anyway
b) pets become more useless at higher levels
c) most other ranger spells to choose from aren't that great anyway ;)

BlueLightBandit
02-25-2008, 12:33 AM
Bah, my ranger only picks up a bow when he wants to grab aggro from across the room.

Bring it closer and hack it to death with an axe. THAT, my friend, is the ranger way.

Sheezgame
02-25-2008, 12:39 AM
That's exactly what a fighter would say :)

GuitarHero
02-25-2008, 01:04 AM
like most things, i wouldn't suggest making it a (Insert Class Here) exclusive thing. ROF should be tied to your base attack bonus, plain and simple. If you have rapid shot, you should get an extra attack with a -2 to all attacks. I know it would make too much sense, but hey, what do i know?

Qzipoun
02-25-2008, 01:11 AM
Bah, my ranger only picks up a bow when he wants to grab aggro from across the room.

Bring it closer and hack it to death with an axe. THAT, my friend, is the ranger way.

QFT :D

Sheezgame
02-25-2008, 01:24 AM
If ranged was better you would pick up your bow more often :) @!#QFT.

@GuitarHero: Yeah that makes sense basing it off the BAB, they would just have to work out the best way to scale it. Either way I think everyone agrees it is probably too slow as it is currently.

Strykersz
02-25-2008, 02:17 AM
Because if any class in the game needs more love, it's rangers.

Mhykke
02-25-2008, 02:36 AM
I dunno...

My ranger loves this new mod.

Vhlad
02-25-2008, 04:53 AM
It's actually really annoying for a melee when a ranger pulls aggro, because of how hard Turbine made it to hit moving mobs, and how long it takes the ranger to kill it.

In pnp you would in most cases have attacks of opportunity every time the monster leaves a square you threaten. There should be a HUGE penalty to running past a line of fighters, but the mobs in DDO beeline toward the rangers/casters without batting an eye. It USED to be easier to hit mobs when they were moving. I have no idea why Turbine changed that. It happend around mod 4, and it's one of the reasons why I play a sorc as my main now. We have dodge bonus to AC in DDO already. So, they're not "dodging".

Anyway, I agree. Speeding up the time it takes a ranger to kill something with a bow/crossbow is needed. (they're probably not going to make it any easier to hit moving targets with a melee weapon anytime soon, so if rangers could at least kill faster it would be less aggrivating).

Elvish_Ranger
02-25-2008, 04:54 AM
why i agree with what most have said that ranged is deffinatly weak compared to other classes remember your not using a 100lb great axe your fireing a arrow that strikes a small part of the body, give us called shot that would make me happy, nothin like runnin into a room with improved precise on and calling a head shot everything in the way saves v death hehe but that is out of the question, the best idea i have read is increa the ROF, but do it sort of like the sorceres sp gain from items, the percent of your levels that are sorc is how much of the increase you get ie on a magi item a 5sorc/5bard gets 150 sp from it, why a 10 sorc gets 200 make the speed increase for rangers like that were if yoru pure ranger 100% increase vs the 10 fighter 6 ranger that shouls only get a 37 % increase

Sheezgame
02-25-2008, 05:19 AM
Lets stand at 2 ends of the room, you with your greataxe and me with my bow. Who do you think will fall down first?

Anyhow aside from how hard things hit, we aren't looking to hit harder, just faster. Does haste actually make you fire arrows faster?

Geonis
02-25-2008, 05:29 AM
Does haste actually make you fire arrows faster?

In DDO? I don't think so.

In PnP? Yes.

Yet another way a ranged character gets the shaft!

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 07:29 AM
like most things, i wouldn't suggest making it a (Insert Class Here) exclusive thing. ROF should be tied to your base attack bonus, plain and simple. If you have rapid shot, you should get an extra attack with a -2 to all attacks. I know it would make too much sense, but hey, what do i know?

How does that make any sense? Change a feat just to get something we already should have?

Gol
02-25-2008, 08:09 AM
Let's not pretend all Rangers are broken. Ranged combat is what's broken, no matter who has the Bow out.

GuitarHero
02-25-2008, 08:29 AM
How does that make any sense? Change a feat just to get something we already should have?

um, because the feat is what's supposed to give you the extra attack.... Makes sense to me.

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 08:42 AM
um, because the feat is what's supposed to give you the extra attack.... Makes sense to me.

The feat has nothing to do with an extra attack per se just the ability to load and fire faster (which, I know, is the "extra attack" you're speaking of). There is no reason to add -2 to the attack for having the feat.

jmelanie7
02-25-2008, 09:13 AM
Alright, so every attack in the game is depending on BAB, for To-Hit and for the number of attacks, bows relate fo BAB for To-Hit, but not for the number of attacks, why? Let's say a level one ranger is grouped with a level 1 barbarian, is the a reason he attacks with his axe faster than i with my bow? NO. It should be equal, 1 attack every round, for 1 attack every round. So basically, everyone at BAB 15 should shoot at the same rate, before applying the feats. But the answer is yes, it should be faster, as fast as melee, and be affected by haste actually.

GuitarHero
02-25-2008, 09:17 AM
The feat has nothing to do with an extra attack per se just the ability to load and fire faster (which, I know, is the "extra attack" you're speaking of). There is no reason to add -2 to the attack for having the feat.


Rapid Shot [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.

Benefit
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

aye, yes, it does give you a faster rate of fire. It is SUPPOSED to be a selectable ability that gives you a faster rate of fire. Forgive me for knowing why its supposed to work....

axebender
02-25-2008, 09:26 AM
please tell me this is a joke

Turial
02-25-2008, 09:40 AM
Let's not pretend all Rangers are broken. Ranged combat is what's broken, no matter who has the Bow out.

Correct. Turbine has led us to believe that issues with ranged ROA is due to the physics engine of the game and the extra lag that following the physical pathing of the arrow to its target. Also in there is the issue that decent players with a bow can infinately kite mobs till they die.

If it was up to me ranged ROA would be equal to melee attack speed, for all classes and before applying any feats. The Rapid shot feat would allow for a player to make an extra attack during a sequence, thus raising the ROA by 1 shot for each sequence and applying a -2 attack penalty while it was active (rapid shot would have to be a toggle feat). Manyshot would be a toggle feat that allowed the ranger to make an attack that fires the correct number of arrows per BAB on each shot while applying the corresponding penalty to those shots, the kicker would be that it slows your ROA to 1 attack per sequence. Also composite bows should have the feat bow strength applied to them so that any user can apply their str to the damage portion of the attack. Bow Str should be left as a ranger feat to reflect the pnp theme of the ranged ranger.

Lets say for ease of number crunching that a player at BAB can get off 100 attacks in a minute through melee. This comes to 20 attack sequences of 5 attacks each. A player using ranged combat and no additional feats would also get 100 attacks over a minute. Using rapid shot that ranged combat used would see 120 attacks in the same minute but at a penalty of -2. If you didnt take SOTR and moved around during that time, like many ranged combat users do, the penalty would be -6 for each shot. A player that uses manyshot full time during that sequence would see 80 attacks during that minute all at -8 to hit. If they also applied rapid shot you would see 100 attacks at -10 to hit. If you also happened to move and didnt have SOTR the total penalty would be -14 to hit.

Setting the world as such adds balance because a ranged combat user would be more likely to pick up SOTR to eliminate the penalties associated with infinate kiteing or might have to make a choice about when to use particular feats. In pnp manyshot is great for taking out large, high hp, but low ac creatures. The penalties may have to be adjusted based on the relative values of AC in the game as we don't see many mobs with low AC and high hp, they tend to be high on both.

Also this isn't ranger love this is love for all classes equally because any class can and should benafit from pulling out a ranged weapon when the situation calls for it.

vanderberg
02-25-2008, 09:44 AM
I fixed the ROF issue on my ranger, I don't carry arrows.

Murnk.

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 10:02 AM
Correct. Turbine has led us to believe that issues with ranged ROA is due to the physics engine of the game and the extra lag that following the physical pathing of the arrow to its target. Also in there is the issue that decent players with a bow can infinately kite mobs till they die.

If it was up to me ranged ROA would be equal to melee attack speed, for all classes and before applying any feats. The Rapid shot feat would allow for a player to make an extra attack during a sequence, thus raising the ROA by 1 shot for each sequence and applying a -2 attack penalty while it was active (rapid shot would have to be a toggle feat). Manyshot would be a toggle feat that allowed the ranger to make an attack that fires the correct number of arrows per BAB on each shot while applying the corresponding penalty to those shots, the kicker would be that it slows your ROA to 1 attack per sequence. Also composite bows should have the feat bow strength applied to them so that any user can apply their str to the damage portion of the attack. Bow Str should be left as a ranger feat to reflect the pnp theme of the ranged ranger.

Lets say for ease of number crunching that a player at BAB can get off 100 attacks in a minute through melee. This comes to 20 attack sequences of 5 attacks each. A player using ranged combat and no additional feats would also get 100 attacks over a minute. Using rapid shot that ranged combat used would see 120 attacks in the same minute but at a penalty of -2. If you didnt take SOTR and moved around during that time, like many ranged combat users do, the penalty would be -6 for each shot. A player that uses manyshot full time during that sequence would see 80 attacks during that minute all at -8 to hit. If they also applied rapid shot you would see 100 attacks at -10 to hit. If you also happened to move and didnt have SOTR the total penalty would be -14 to hit.

Setting the world as such adds balance because a ranged combat user would be more likely to pick up SOTR to eliminate the penalties associated with infinate kiteing or might have to make a choice about when to use particular feats. In pnp manyshot is great for taking out large, high hp, but low ac creatures. The penalties may have to be adjusted based on the relative values of AC in the game as we don't see many mobs with low AC and high hp, they tend to be high on both.

Also this isn't ranger love this is love for all classes equally because any class can and should benafit from pulling out a ranged weapon when the situation calls for it.

From the online d20srd:


Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit

As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special

Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

and:


Rapid Shot [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit

You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special

A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

but from the DDO Feat Conpendium:


Rapid Shot
You can fire ranged attacks faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Point Blank Shot

So DDO didn't follow PnP on the -2 to hit for Rapid Shot nor did they make it a toggled ability. So you are saying that you want them to follow the PnP rules. I can get with that but first, before any other change, we need ranged combat speed to match what it should be in PnP as Turial states.

Praut_Ektor
02-25-2008, 11:25 AM
Not sure how to go this way.

My PNP ranger was my first PNP character.

I've currently awarded a DDO character his name and am playing him.

At level 7, I am doing 20-60 points with an arrow. With Multishot I'm bringing down groups of 5-6 Trolls with my bow, and I rarely find the need to run around like a raving looney firing arrows. That's on top of the ability to dual wield my giant stalker knives if I feel the desire.

Does it pull the aggro from the fighters? Sure does, but I haven't heard many complain when I'm dropping 5 Trolls at a distance in about 20 seconds.

Call BS, call it bragging, I try not to, but I think what's broken mostly is the tactics and the builds.

The only thing that makes me sad is that when my ranger grows up he'll have a bow banisher, but he'll have to get close to chop their heads off.

I think more ranger love is always great, for the rangers, but I think that there is plenty of love out there if you can use it right.

Rate of Fire, if it's as fast as it's ever going to get for my ranger, may be a problem but I can still get that many more attacks on something before it closes. I don't see a lot of reason why a ranger should be only TWF or only Ranged combat. That's a PNP mindset. I'm primarily Bow user with plenty of TWF to back it up.

Draclaud
02-25-2008, 03:33 PM
If you want to fix ranged combat...Easy...Make Many Shot a Stance like Power Attack is. There yah go...Ranged Combat is fixed...

dragnmoon
02-25-2008, 03:39 PM
This thread is more about Ranged Love... Not Ranger love... Rangers got so good loving this mod...*Is that dirty?*

But Ranged attacks need to get fixed... I am Still say it should be the way it is in D&D.. Ranged gets the same attack speed as Melee... That will fix it.. And no.. it won't be unbalanced because Melee will still Out Dmg Ranged attacks and be the preferred method.. but it will help the ranged players

Talon_Moonshadow
02-25-2008, 04:10 PM
Multi-shot is great.
Add special damage from bow.......now add special damage from arrows (which stacks a lot more than most people think)
And you can put out some serious DPS.

Add in Impr Prec Shot...and that's potential high DPS to a lot of baddies.

I don't know if it's more DPS than a raging Barb or not....but it's a lot....and baddies drop very fast.

As much as I want to see ranged combat improved....especially the rate of fire part......I ahevt to wonder if it would be unbalancing to the game.

Add huge DPS, plus the ability to attack at a distance and you get a very powerful toon.

Ranged combat is already more powerful than most people give it credit. If for no other reason than being able to do damage from safety......even slow damage is still damage....with little risk in the right environment.

I do hope they increase the rate of fire for ranged combat. But the right way to do it is a little at a time and try to get the right balance.

Improvements to monster AI will help. Kinda like creatures standing in firewalls, they should be smart enough to take cover if they cannot get at the guy shooting them......actually I think just like firewall, the AI should be changed so that survival comes first rather than agro.....but that's just me.

I know if I am taking a lot of damage from something, my priority is survival first....revenge second.

On the topic of ranged damage though, I wish the players would give ranged more respect. It may be broken, but it does work....and many times it works very well......even if slow.
Slow and alive is better than fast and dead any day IMO.

paintedman
02-25-2008, 06:07 PM
fix to a stance and we're set.

I got a lvl 13 ranger, and I do alright, but I find myself running from more fights than actually taking down mobs, unless I have saved my manyshot. That or I switch to my para bow, hit auto attack and go and make a grilled cheese sandwich. If it is a trollish mob, then I just have to wait for manyshot.

At higher levels I find it harder and hard to take down mobs, not impossible, not at all, but just harder, than say my wizzard or sorc. No not looking for equality, just what the feat should do in the first place.

I will also not take into consideration the solo rangers who were able to take down the Reaver and what not into account. I'm not that player, so I do not feel like I should play or tirelessly attain gear as those players did.

On the other side of the coin, I can see why fighter types would be opposed to these types of changes, I mean they already have to watch as some disembodied finger steals thier kills that they ran up to get over and over again, why would they want to see even more slip to the guy-in-the-back-with-the-bow right?

Bottom line is that this should not have been a clickie with a cool down time, and if I've read the winds right I think the devs are heading in that direction anyway (see Codog's long long post) so I'm not too worried.

-paintedman

Aesop
02-25-2008, 06:11 PM
If you want to fix ranged combat...Easy...Make Many Shot a Stance like Power Attack is. There yah go...Ranged Combat is fixed...

Actually I think that would break ranged combat the other way

just my opinion though

Aesop

Mercules
02-25-2008, 06:46 PM
Actually I think that would break ranged combat the other way

just my opinion though

Aesop

And even if it doesn't break it the other way, it certainly hurts anyone who doesn't use a bow for ranged combat. Throwing weapons and crossbows can not use Many Shot so it only "fixes" one third of ranged combat.

RoF should be based off BAB allowing someone with a ranged weapon and all the feats(Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, etc) for ranged combat to fire off as many shots as someone swinging a sword gets attacks in that 6 seconds.

Aesop
02-25-2008, 06:56 PM
And even if it doesn't break it the other way, it certainly hurts anyone who doesn't use a bow for ranged combat. Throwing weapons and crossbows can not use Many Shot so it only "fixes" one third of ranged combat.

RoF should be based off BAB allowing someone with a ranged weapon and all the feats(Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, etc) for ranged combat to fire off as many shots as someone swinging a sword gets attacks in that 6 seconds.

Yeah I pretty much think that too. THough they swear that ranged combat would be too powerful if it matched melee. So I gavea concession and said 85% the speed of a melee.

maybe with Manyshot as a stance the penalty could be like... oh crud I forgot the persons name...

oh well

make it a-2 to hit and -5% RoF per extra arrow

Start the RoF at 65% and have Rapid Shot add 20% RoF

maybe throw in ewnhancement lines to reduce to hit penalty and another to increase the number of arrows shot (would be very careful about this one though) maybe have it max out at reducing penalties by 4 and the other line increasing # of Arrows possible by 2

Thrown weapons might get an extra 5-10% RoF (over the 85%) from Quick Draw

and I hear repeating x bows are actually too fast right now... though I could be mistaken

Aesop

Turial
02-25-2008, 08:50 PM
Actually I think that would break ranged combat the other way

just my opinion though

Aesop

That it would. Imagine that we get 100 attacks over a period of a minute. If manyshot was a stance we would then get 400 attacks in that same period of time. Very broken.

Turial
02-25-2008, 09:08 PM
Yeah I pretty much think that too. THough they swear that ranged combat would be too powerful if it matched melee. So I gavea concession and said 85% the speed of a melee.

maybe with Manyshot as a stance the penalty could be like... oh crud I forgot the persons name...

oh well

make it a-2 to hit and -5% RoF per extra arrow

Start the RoF at 65% and have Rapid Shot add 20% RoF

maybe throw in ewnhancement lines to reduce to hit penalty and another to increase the number of arrows shot (would be very careful about this one though) maybe have it max out at reducing penalties by 4 and the other line increasing # of Arrows possible by 2

Thrown weapons might get an extra 5-10% RoF (over the 85%) from Quick Draw

and I hear repeating x bows are actually too fast right now... though I could be mistaken

Aesop

So assuming 100 attacks per min for melee (I use 100 cause its a nice even number and makes fractions easier, I know that melee gets about 94 attacks per min on average). At base a ranged combatant would have 65 attacks per round. With rapid shot we see it increase to 85 attacks in a minute. A ranged combatant that activates the many shot stance would then end up with 65 attacks per round at -8 to hit. The total number of possible hits though is about 260.

The issue at the base of things is that many shot as a stance is likely to be too powerful due to its multiplicative affect on the number of ranged attacks one fires off.

One of the other things I was thinking of was what if many shot was a short timed shot such that one could only shoot one many shot volley during an attack sequence (would have to time it to the completion of a melee attack sequence or roughly 8 seconds). Rapid shot would then need an additional effect added, reducing the cool down of many shot by half to represent the rapid shots ability to launch two many shot volleys during an attack sequence. It retains the speed balance of pnp but still allows ranged combatants to fire off heavy shots when it counts (honestly the real reason to use many shot).

Aesop
02-26-2008, 01:55 AM
So assuming 100 attacks per min for melee (I use 100 cause its a nice even number and makes fractions easier, I know that melee gets about 94 attacks per min on average). At base a ranged combatant would have 65 attacks per round. With rapid shot we see it increase to 85 attacks in a minute. A ranged combatant that activates the many shot stance would then end up with 65 attacks per round at -8 to hit. The total number of possible hits though is about 260.

The issue at the base of things is that many shot as a stance is likely to be too powerful due to its multiplicative affect on the number of ranged attacks one fires off.

One of the other things I was thinking of was what if many shot was a short timed shot such that one could only shoot one many shot volley during an attack sequence (would have to time it to the completion of a melee attack sequence or roughly 8 seconds). Rapid shot would then need an additional effect added, reducing the cool down of many shot by half to represent the rapid shots ability to launch two many shot volleys during an attack sequence. It retains the speed balance of pnp but still allows ranged combatants to fire off heavy shots when it counts (honestly the real reason to use many shot).

you mean like Deepwoods Sniper enhancement?

I'm not sure that would fly that well... but maybe

Hvymetal
02-26-2008, 06:35 AM
Lets stand at 2 ends of the room, you with your greataxe and me with my bow. Who do you think will fall down first?

Anyhow aside from how hard things hit, we aren't looking to hit harder, just faster. Does haste actually make you fire arrows faster?
Actually I'd be rather interested to see how the actual "stopping power" of a bow really would rate, I think many of you would be suprised. Barring a instantly leathal shot I have a feeling that the berzerk maniac with an axe actually would reach you with several arrows sticking out of him, I would definatly have to rate the axes stopping power to be much greater than the bow, you might stand a chance if the room were say 50 yards across or if you were a most remarkable marksman under intense pressure....

Brings me to two other thoughts brought up by this thread, in that case then wouldn't two weapon fighting animations have to be changed to display the correct number of attacks? And then wouldn't crossbows have to be slowed down even more to fit in with the number of attacks, if I recal isn't loading a light crossbow a move action while reloading a heavy a full round action? So basically (if we are using the 20 attacks per round scenario from above) a hvy repeater user is basically looking at what? 3 attacks for a normal bows 20? Just food for thought.....

Yaga_Nub
02-26-2008, 07:04 AM
aye, yes, it does give you a faster rate of fire. It is SUPPOSED to be a selectable ability that gives you a faster rate of fire. Forgive me for knowing why its supposed to work....

Sorry missed your post GH. The point that you replied to was based on the DDO feat not the PnP feat. Obviously, as I pointed out in a later post, they are different. But I'll stand by the statement that if you want to change the feat to match PnP then you need to fix ranged combat's speed to match what it would be in PnP before changing the feat.

jmonty
02-26-2008, 09:01 AM
personally i don't care about ranged dps, but i'd like to see better summoned pets, or maybe make improved animal empathy a mass effect. also, if animal empathy is based on charisma, that should be changed to wisdom or maybe ranger level instead.

Turial
02-26-2008, 10:15 AM
Actually I'd be rather interested to see how the actual "stopping power" of a bow really would rate, I think many of you would be suprised. Barring a instantly leathal shot I have a feeling that the berzerk maniac with an axe actually would reach you with several arrows sticking out of him, I would definatly have to rate the axes stopping power to be much greater than the bow, you might stand a chance if the room were say 50 yards across or if you were a most remarkable marksman under intense pressure....

Brings me to two other thoughts brought up by this thread, in that case then wouldn't two weapon fighting animations have to be changed to display the correct number of attacks? And then wouldn't crossbows have to be slowed down even more to fit in with the number of attacks, if I recal isn't loading a light crossbow a move action while reloading a heavy a full round action? So basically (if we are using the 20 attacks per round scenario from above) a hvy repeater user is basically looking at what? 3 attacks for a normal bows 20? Just food for thought.....

Not really for two weapon fighting. They do get the correct number of attacks...just not the full animation for it and from a mechanics point of view thats ok. Should it be fixed? Yes but thats an animation issue.

A light crossbow user with no feats would see 20 attacks in a minute and a heavy crossbow user would get 10 attacks in the same minute. A repeater user would see 10 attacks of 5 bolts each for 50 attacks in a minute.

Add in rapid reload and the light crossbow user can obtain 100 attacks in a minute as the reload is changed to a free action rather then a move action. A heavy crossbow user would be increased to 20 attacks as the reload is no longer a full round action but a move action. The repeater user would then see 20 attacks of 5 bolts each for 100 attacks in a minute.

So in the end the crossbow does see a slowdown in ROA but it comes up to full martial weapon ROA with the addition of a single feat. Not bad overall for a ranged weapon that can be used by all classes and has a better crit range then a bow. The SRD doesnt list the differences between the light and heavy repeaters in terms of reload times and number of bolts that they can hold so I just listed a blank repeater. The benafit of the repeater is a quick burst of attacks from a weapon with a higher crit range then a bow, which is a game were on critical effect matter a large amount is decent for an exotic feat.

I dont know how rapid shot and crossbows interact in pnp. I would think that so long as you could make multiple attacks in a round you would be able to apply the effects of rapid shot. So a light crossbow user with rapid reload and rapid shot could have 120 attacks in a minute with a total penalty of -2 to each shot. It doesn't seem that rapid shot would work with heavy crossbows or repeaters because you can only reduce the reload time to a move action and thus wouldn't get an additional attack. This is because you can only take 1 standard action with a move action in a single round.

And yes the guy with the axe would likely reach the ranged combat user with a few arrows sticking out of him but he is a little easier to kill with a few arrows sticking out of him then he is without them. Axes generally have better "stopping" power then bows because of their increased damage dice and critical range.

ChildrenofBodom
02-26-2008, 10:34 AM
It's actually really annoying for a melee when a ranger pulls aggro, because of how hard Turbine made it to hit moving mobs, and how long it takes the ranger to kill it.


No one says you have to chase a monster that a ranger aggros.....

Move on or start killing another monster. All my friends know that if I feel like going ranged I can handle a monster on my own. If the ranger can't handle the mob they are kiting, I understand your complaint, but if the ranger knows what he/she is doing, just don't chase the mob...

Karavek
02-26-2008, 11:15 AM
What is wrong with you my friend, I have played 3 ranger hybrids and though none be the mightiest I do not feel they are weak. My first character when I begane was a pal/rang/rogue, this was done to simulate a character I ahd played in second edition a half elf ranger rogue who using skills and powers optional rule book had adopted a few paladin traits becasue he had been the oldest son of a dragon slaying paladin but was unable to fit in among the humans alone(his mother had dissappeared when he was little answering the call of her elvish homeland whena great threat arose and she fell in battle) and when he was nearly a man a mysterious elf druid ranger appeared and offered to teach him the ways of his mothers people( an uncle who fulfilled the dying promise of his sister). His name was karavek and though I had made his stats rounded not having any extremes he was one of the first rogue paladins on the fernia server and his preferance to start with a bow then change to 2 weapon style often gained him a nice kill count as well as being very enduring to magic compared to many at the time but the over powered pure paladin in this game.

My second was a elf ranger rogue 5/5 split ( id quit just after the lvl 12 cap increase for many reasons not game related and a few that where) named spruce who had gone after the super dex finnesse warrior, though he had a decent strength still to take advantage of the str bow dmg rangers get. He excelled well until they crippled his ability to do battle against red bosses with his favored weapon a wounding rapier(this was back when wounders where quite rare still, and though many think its the wounding puncturer taht brought about total stat damage immunity it was really ray of enfeeblment being spammed on the dragon) which was used so hard it finally lost all durability before i could gain another as back up. He was an awesome warrior who 3 times faced the Big Red, and though never did the group see victory, all 3 times I was the last elf standing my evasion super reflex and high accuracy let my frost rapier and short sword of pure good deal healthy damage(it was only when my cure potions ran out that I finally dropped for it breathed way to much which was harmless for the most part to me, and only whena claw/claw/bite caught me and all 3 where crits was I overwhelmed)

And finally there is my current ranger/rouge drow. As I only recently returned to Stormreach and found many differences in feats and enhancments I felt it was time to try a new drow version until i unlock 32 point builds and can re roll spruce springsting into an even mighter high elf. I have cleared 9 lvls in 6 days, soloing for the most part through to lvl 4 at a fast pace, and even soloing through the WW 9 frikken times from 3-5 for my black widow bracers( I did once or twice have a friend or two along from the small guild I hooked up with but it was only for company not need of assitance). He to favors wounders though ofcourse they mean nothing to the fierce red names now, and has to carry a bag full of weapons for every variety of foe.

Now you may ask by now where is the response to ranged rangers, well here it comes. Never existed in PnP, even if a ranger takes only ranged related feats, even if all his prestige classes are foccussed in archery( say arcane archer, order of the bow initiate, deepwood stalker, and likely 4 lvls in ftr for bow spec) rangers still draw thier twin blades in close quarters or maces for skellies and the like after all some things jsut make little sense to shoot pointy sticks at no matter thier magical power. Dont like hearing taht you are expect to close, well to bad you are a frikken warrior not a sniveling sorcerer hiding in the backrow. Since the first days in DDO I infact get offended by casters who dont carry a decent staff and throwing dagger to at least help in some fights while conserving spell points, if they wanted to be blasters they should play COH. And do not even get me started on all my elven and drow kinsman who do not see the logic in some decent mithril armor and a good rapier and an odd lvl or two in ftr or ranger or pal to be a light tank for when mana is low or needs to be saved for the boss.

Why would you even want to be a pure archer, if you want to be a ranged death dealer only casters can dominate, and that is the way it is. In melee all warriors, and the rogue should be farely equal, though due to many imbalances in the game( largely having to due with the mass of undead quest probably 40%, and constructs probably another 20%, and red names mattering most maybe another 5-10% paladins and high str dps builds have a huge advantage, especially th paladins point blank divine fire ball as i call it, allow a paladin to do things they never could in PnP being tradionally weaker in most quest that are no undead heavy which they are not with the enhancements allowing them stronger saves and combat abilities then they normally would have.

The real point is not you being pure ranged but the complete imbalance of you and most other high dex low str ranger and rogue builds being unable to bring the full force of our already existing abilities to the battles in many quest. For example the crit power of deepwood means nothing to 60% of the foes, same with poor rogues sneak atk forces us to either spend huge amounts of coin aquiring highly sought after finnesse weapons( when a Sunblade should just be a static reward in threnal along side retribution( after all 4d6 is better then a D10+2 agaisnt undead, and give all 2 weapon ftrs, and finnesse ftrs a good weapon agaisnt a major enemy type without need to grind for ever for the 4-9 million gold most ask for them on auction.

Remember bows are not your only weapon, even as my twin weapon masters are still competent archers with a high dex decent str and innate ranger bow feats, so to are bow users still meant to draw steel when the beast closes quarters on you. Do not ask for a buff to archery whcih likely will elad to further imbalance, instead ask for the tools we need to do our jobs right , after all if you had 2 sunblades( which in pnp most rangers carry by lvl 10) then you wouldnt fear the dark chaos of the melee

As for a Bows stopping power agaisnt things you can crit, geta silver bow, take all the feats, try deepwood sniper, and pack bane arrows, or elemental damage arrows for the right job, against the big red you could be doing +4d6 per shot with frost arrows with that silver bow and on your sniper shot havea 16-20x4 crit(never seen them but frost burst arrows would be even better with 6d10 bonus on the crit. Like rogues and finesse warriors, archers just need the right weapons for the right job, be thankful at least your favored weapon type has some good easy to get ones out there, and many sell thier elemental and bane arrows on auction making ammo easier to find.

I hope this helps to enlighten you to the true imbalance and learn to fight smarter not harder.

Walk in the woods, run with the breeze, no matter how mighty, the Red will always fear the Freeze.Be safe and stalk well my fellow rangers.

If you are on ghallanda seek out Leafon The whirlwind, ranger/rogue/ftr drow tempest. I am but a leaf on the wind, a sword in the storm, the elven hurricane and will continue to champion the cause of elves and thier small kin the halflings for all times.

Turial
02-27-2008, 11:10 AM
No one is saying anyone should use ranged combat full time.

What we are asking for is an alternative to simply beating on every single mob in the game. Honestly as raids become more wars of attrition the game needs something between melee and casting for a damage dealing option that uses resources but doesn't consume them a the phenominal rates the melee and spell slinging can. Currently ranged combat doesn't fit that roll due to the slow rate of fire.

The rules governing ranged combat in pnp give some balance to ranged vs melee because a ranged combat user must have enough dex to hit the target as well as a decent str for dealing damage. As you increase your str you tend to loose out on the ability to have the high dex for taking on mobs accross AC values.

Yaga_Nub
02-27-2008, 11:19 AM
If you are on ghallanda seek out Leafon The whirlwind, ranger/rogue/ftr drow tempest. I am but a leaf on the wind, a sword in the storm, the elven hurricane and will continue to champion the cause of elves and thier small kin the halflings for all times.

I'm elven as well and those little rat b*stards sure as hell aren't my kin. :)

crschoen
03-08-2008, 08:24 AM
It's actually really annoying for a melee when a ranger pulls aggro, because of how hard Turbine made it to hit moving mobs, and how long it takes the ranger to kill it.

In pnp you would in most cases have attacks of opportunity every time the monster leaves a square you threaten. There should be a HUGE penalty to running past a line of fighters, but the mobs in DDO beeline toward the rangers/casters without batting an eye.

You just summarized, in one pithy paragraph, what I think is the biggest flaw with the DDO combat mechanisms. The game has diverged so far from reality now. Ever try to hit a caster or ranger goblinoid when it runs away from you? Good luck. Ever try to hit an ogre that is running straight towards a ranger behind the fighters? Good luck. Does this make any sense with P&P or what you would consider a "real" combat? Of course not.

I think this combat problem is related to another huge one: the fact that a party can just shield block (or even stand still) at a pinch point like a doorway and the monster will stand there dumbly and try to swing at the caster in the back who has a firewall on it. This is the old STK or VON3 end fight. It kind of feels like you're playing a Nintendo game against a stupid end boss. It doesn't feel like D&D at all to me. Can you imagine a DM running a game like that?

Fetchi
03-08-2008, 09:53 AM
I think one thing people are disregarding are the incredible amount of HPs mobs have - especially at higher levels. I have a primarily ranged spec'd level 16 ranger who can hit just about every shot. Yet, it takes me forever to kill anything and a whole bunch of arrows (WHICH STILL TAKE UP ALL MY INVENTORY SPACE - WHERE ARE THE QUIVERS!!).

Let me ask you all this question: How many arrows does it take your ranger to take out a devil in the vale with a silver longbow? You can even take into account many shot and deepwoods sniper enhancements if you like.

I bet you are going to find it takes much too long to kill one creature for a 'ranging' toon than all other classes.:rolleyes:

winsom
03-08-2008, 12:38 PM
Let's not pretend all Rangers are broken. Ranged combat is what's broken, no matter who has the Bow out.

Or we could conclude that melee combat is severely-overpowered of the two combat styles, which is what I beleive.

Steejan
03-08-2008, 12:48 PM
Hey Fetchi,

I run an L-16 pure bred 28 point human Ranger, Dex 34/Str 23 and I can tell you from my own Vale experiences, you got to find yourself a good banisher. (short sword, rapier or repeater) or what ever weapon type that works well with your build and its crit range. That way the baddies and their bloated hit points won’t mean jack to you!

In my mind, taking the devils on and trying to DPS them to death is a very slow and costly way of killing them.

My Ranger uses a Heavy Repeater and that is the only way I’d even consider locking horns with those baddies. If you can find a good banisher, that will help you immensely in the Vale since a large portion of its inhabitance can be banished. Also I have found out that wounders and punctures work pretty well too on the non devils and if you have a ranged or hand paralizing weapon that will making your adventuring there that much easier.

Since the Vale opened for business, that has became my Ranger’s newest solo loot run area and of course it take a little patients on my part to make the runs but it very attainable.

I do have to completely agree with you on the ammunition consumption issue. I typically go through 7 stacks of the 75% returning bolts while I’m making ONE Vale solo trip and in that trip that account's for visiting all the areas where the chests could spawn.

Also, its really about time for the Devs to do something with the ammunition stack size or at least give us some kind of quivers.

To answer the question your posed, as far as my Ranger goes, I don’t use anything but my banishing heavy repeater against any of the devils in the Vale and they only hang around bothering me, untiI I smack them down with a crit on my repeater, which usually is not too long.

Another thing that I have found VERY helpful indeed, is when you are running the devil area make use of the cats laying around there. Paralyze them and then charm them with your Ranger's Empathy feat. They make wonderful cannon fodder and the charm lasts a decent amount of time and those cats seem to grab and hold the devils agro for a long time allowing you all the more time to get them all banished.

All in all, I have found that my Ranger in the Vale, armed with the right weapons is an absolutely deadly opponent. :)

Oh and one more thing, I'm quite happy with the rate of fire my heavy repeater has at this time. Please don't drop it down anymore, if ya have to raise it, i'm ok with that but otherwise just leave it alone.

Steejan...

Cyr
03-09-2008, 02:29 PM
I just came back for this weekend events free event...had not touched any of my chars for a few months. First thing I notice is that both my rangers (14 level chars now 15) had a new spell that pimps their damage 3 points higher per hit...then i see tempest enhancment and oversize two weapon fighting. So I grab a level of fighter with one ranger respec feats out for tempest and power attack and am doing +18 damage dual weilding with a ranger who was really really not made to be a high str fighter. I have to say rangers were strong before mod 5 for those who knew how to play them ie more than JUST a bow user. Now they are very competitive with the other classes even for those who are not the best at building characters.

If any class needs a boost it is paladin's they are the weakest class atm.

Emili
03-09-2008, 03:03 PM
I just came back for this weekend events free event...had not touched any of my chars for a few months. First thing I notice is that both my rangers (14 level chars now 15) had a new spell that pimps their damage 3 points higher per hit...then i see tempest enhancment and oversize two weapon fighting. So I grab a level of fighter with one ranger respec feats out for tempest and power attack and am doing +18 damage dual weilding with a ranger who was really really not made to be a high str fighter. I have to say rangers were strong before mod 5 for those who knew how to play them ie more than JUST a bow user. Now they are very competitive with the other classes even for those who are not the best at building characters.

If any class needs a boost it is paladin's they are the weakest class atm.

I tend to agree, among all the full bab classes pure paladins suffer the worse, it is a constant spamming on yourself of divine favor just to equate to the typical fighter class... the ranger even a lower str one is easily adaptable with rams, favored and being able to pick up a bow or go twf at any given moment... even sword and board a mid str (22-24 standing) ranger equates to a high str pally due to the damage bonus's avail thru favored and rams. As for the rate of fire of arrows should you just take a w/p bow and manyshot whole mobs of 6-10 elite ancient earth elementals are dead before the timer runs out on manyshot. That same feat will deliver 90-140+ per arrow on a red named (arrows x4 at level 16), That's very far past the poor pally's smite capability and you do not have to be standing toe-to-toe to deliver it and have no usage per day.

Omega2K
03-10-2008, 04:55 PM
Where's the Ranger Love, Turbine?

(Added Quivers to my Original Post. Great idea and long overdue!)

salmag
03-10-2008, 07:45 PM
The only complaint I have is in the Manyshot cooldown timer. Lower it to 20-30 secs, or make manyshot a toggleable (as others have suggested). Two minutes is way too long a cooldown.

Could you imagine the uproar if Cleave or Power Attack had a 2 minute cooldown. :eek:

And noone is saying that a Fighter, Barbarian, or Paladin can not pick up a bow either. :cool:

MylesMDT
03-10-2008, 08:51 PM
As a level 10 Ranger, back for the "Welcome Back Week," I still see a very flawed ranged system. The differences in the flaws are changed than they were 1 year, and 2 years ago - but it is still flawed. Rangers just need some love.