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Angelus_dead
02-24-2008, 11:30 AM
The new Tempest enhancement for Rangers should be changed so Fighters can get it too.

The requirements should be changed to:
Ranger1 or Fighter1, character level 6, Improved TWF, Spring Attack.

That would slightly increase the flexibility of character builds. Note that although it might be nicer theoretically to allow characters of any class to take it, in practice only a fighter or ranger is likely to muster up the five feats needed to qualify.

Yaga_Nub
02-24-2008, 11:53 AM
The new Tempest enhancement for Rangers should be changed so Fighters can get it too.

The requirements should be changed to:
Ranger1 or Fighter1, character level 6, Improved TWF, Spring Attack.

That would slightly increase the flexibility of character builds. Note that although it might be nicer theoretically to allow characters of any class to take it, in practice only a fighter or ranger is likely to muster up the five feats needed to qualify.

Well it seems like it's really geared towards Rangers in PnP so I guess that's why they gave the love to Rangers only.

Luthen
02-24-2008, 12:06 PM
The new Tempest enhancement for Rangers should be changed so Fighters can get it too.

The requirements should be changed to:
Ranger1 or Fighter1, character level 6, Improved TWF, Spring Attack.

That would slightly increase the flexibility of character builds. Note that although it might be nicer theoretically to allow characters of any class to take it, in practice only a fighter or ranger is likely to muster up the five feats needed to qualify.

Fighters can take it. They just need 6 levels of Ranger first. :p

LordGT
02-24-2008, 12:07 PM
You could just invite more rangers to your groups...

Hate rocket science...

Tarsier

Angelus_dead
02-24-2008, 12:11 PM
Well it seems like it's really geared towards Rangers in PnP so I guess that's why they gave the love to Rangers only.
The PnP requirements are exactly the same as the DDO requirements, minus the ranger levels. In PnP, to take tempest you need BAB 6, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, TWF, and Improved TWF. There's positively nothing about that biased towards rangers over fighters.

Yaga_Nub
02-24-2008, 12:49 PM
The PnP requirements are exactly the same as the DDO requirements, minus the ranger levels. In PnP, to take tempest you need BAB 6, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, TWF, and Improved TWF. There's positively nothing about that biased towards rangers over fighters.

Yeah but didn't it appear in the complete ranger or something like that?

Mhykke
02-24-2008, 02:57 PM
I also wouldn't mind if my fighter could cast barkskin and also if he could rage.


Oh, and firewall. I want him to be able to cast firewall.

Thank you.

Westerner
02-24-2008, 03:03 PM
Sure fighters should get Tempest. Right after rangers get toughness...

gpk
02-24-2008, 04:13 PM
I think some ppl are missing the point here, a fighter is sorely lacking in good feats and enhancements; especially high level ones.
Something that's already in game that may be of interest for some fighters to take is not a bad thing, considering rangers (including mine) got the nice inflated Ram's Might spell, what's the harm in opening up this line of enhancements to fighters (only fighters imo)?

Do we really want to repeat the mistakes of the past in regards to very long periods of time where class X falls behind the curve and is not fun to play?

It should be pretty easy to have this added in 6.1.

maddmatt70
02-24-2008, 04:40 PM
I would like to see something more fighter esque added to fighters and not some other classes' thing. Variability is what makes dnd great. If I want to play a tempest I can build a ranger.. I would recommend three different types of mini prestige classes which seem fighter like: 1. tactical fighter prestige class. Something that increases a fighter's ability to trip, stunning blow, etc.. 2. Defensive fighter prestige class. A prestige class which increases a fighter's ac and maybe saves. 3. Weapon master. Something that increases a fighters to hit, damage, etc. with a specific weapon such as a greataxe, longsword, rapier, dwarven war axe. I would prefer weapon over the ddo weapon type because of the purist in me, but either or is fine..

bandyman1
02-24-2008, 04:42 PM
It's a ranger specialty.

Fighters want it, take 6 levels of ranger. Case closed.

Or go ahead and give it to fighters....and then give rangers 10 sided hit dice, extra bonus feats, armor mastery and toughness enhancements.

Or, you can just roll up a ranger.

Mad_Bombardier
02-24-2008, 04:51 PM
The OP is correct. Tempest is not unique to Rangers (it just fits with ranger combat style). When Fighter "prestige enhancements" are introduced, Tempest should defintely be on the list. And, as stated above, it should require ImpTWF, Spring Attack, and BAB+6.

Aesop
02-24-2008, 04:54 PM
PrEs should not have Class level prerequisites.

PrEs should have Feat Skill Rank and in some cases Class Feature prerequisites.

Without a complete revamp of Enhancements (again) PrEs should not have Enhancement Prerequisites

There is nothing in PnP that says a Fighter can't get the Tempest Prestige Class. There is nothing in PnP that says a Rogue, Barb, Paladin, Monk,... or even any class can't get the Tempest Prestige Class.


As these PrEs are mimicing PrCs they should not limit which classes cn get them. This places restrictions and favors one type of build over another.

Multiple PrEs should be allowed as these are all bonuses bought and paid for... sometimes extensively and taking them means we are not taking something else. It isn't as though AP were unlimited resources. They are tied to character levels.

Aesop

Aesop
02-24-2008, 04:56 PM
Yeah but didn't it appear in the complete ranger or something like that?

Complete Adventurer'd Handboook... which could indicate that its a Rogue's PrC really.


Aesop

Spectralist
02-24-2008, 05:08 PM
It should be selectable by anyone who meets the feat prereqs. Not just fighters and rangers. And certainly not just rangers. Hell the monk i'm planning would love it. And my current plan is 6 levels of ranger for it. But it's rather asinine that i have to plan class levels for this.

Frankly the enhancement system needs a(nother) complete revamp. Get rid of the class requirements on most enhancements. Especially those tied to feats. The metamagics. Toughness. Etc. There is no reason to have class requirements for such things.

dns801
02-24-2008, 05:17 PM
the point of it is to let rangers have something its a ranger specialty... you cant be a dwarven defender and not be a dwarf lol. and if thats the case then rangers should get all the extra fets that ftr's do :D. poor idea imo tempest = ranger. and why is there no reason to have class req's for enhancments?!? you just want to be able to do everything? then lets just get rid of all the calsses while we are at it. certain things are made for certain other things if you dont like that then dont play that class or specialty aka prestiege class, and if you do like then make a character for it. its just that simple.

Aesop
02-24-2008, 05:56 PM
the point of it is to let rangers have something its a ranger specialty... you cant be a dwarven defender and not be a dwarf lol. and if thats the case then rangers should get all the extra fets that ftr's do :D. poor idea imo tempest = ranger. and why is there no reason to have class req's for enhancments?!? you just want to be able to do everything? then lets just get rid of all the calsses while we are at it. certain things are made for certain other things if you dont like that then dont play that class or specialty aka prestiege class, and if you do like then make a character for it. its just that simple.

except this is against the preconceived notions of what you can do with characters in pnp. Yes I know this is not pnp but this arbitrary selective PrE placement which is as far as anyone can tell (or until a Dev says "no really we are making PrCs... these are just extra things for specific classes") these PrEs are infact the implementation thatthe Devs are using for PrCs.

Therefore they should not be tied to a class but instead to Feats, Features and Skill Ranks. If this was a PrC that was intended solely for Rangers then a Prerequisite would have been Combat Mastery: Improved Two Weapon Fighting ... instead of the Feat Improved Two Weapon Fighting... or maybe have Favored Enemy or some other feature that was solely a Rangers perview for a Prerequisite.


Take the Assassin Prestige Class (PrC) its Prerequisites are Alignment: Evil, Disguise Rank 4, Hide Rank 8, Move Silently Rank 8, and kill someone with the express purpose of joining the Assassins. No where in there is Sneak Attack a Prerequisite therefore while Rogues are more likely to become Assassins there is nothing in PnP to disuade a Monk or Druid or Ranger from becoming an Assassin.

now the Arcane Trickster does have a Sneak Attack prerequisite of 2d6 which means (unless another class exists in the campaign world that gets sneak attack or the equivilent ie sudden strike or skirmish) that the character must have rogue levels to attain this PrC... but only as relates to a Feature (Sneak Attack)

I concur on the revamping of the Enhancement System. A system not based on class but on Class Features, Skills and Feat taken would be a far better one that would allow far greater character customization.

Aesop

Vhlad
02-24-2008, 06:16 PM
tempest =/ ranger. In pnp it is NOT specific to the ranger class.

In DDO it seems that instead of fixing ranged combat, they've decided to make rangers better at melee.

They're already getting massive amounts of free feats compared to pnp, and now they get one of the best enhancements in the game. +2 AC and 10% stacking increased attack speed is huge.

If there is tempest II at later levels, and still nothing great for fighters, I'll probably just convert my TWF to ranger, and get evasion, more skill points, better saves, favored enemy, and spells to boot.

sirgog
02-24-2008, 06:56 PM
In pen and paper, fighters make the second best tempests (only just behind Rangers).

DDO could reflect this by giving the Tempest enhancement to fighters, but at a higher AP cost.

dns801
02-24-2008, 07:17 PM
ranger do not get massive feats compared to pnp they get the same stuff...only one im not sure about is die hard but die hard is worthless cuz when does something not take you to -500 hp anymore...like i said make a ranger if its a problem... same hp's... self heal overall better class anyways..oh and just so you know i do not have a tempest yet and my main is a ftr...

Westerner
02-24-2008, 07:26 PM
DDO could reflect this by giving the Tempest enhancement to fighters, but at a higher AP cost.
In principle, I'm in favor of making cross-class enhancements available at higher AP cost.

Angelus_dead
02-24-2008, 07:54 PM
They're already getting massive amounts of free feats compared to pnp, and now they get one of the best enhancements in the game. +2 AC and 10% stacking increased attack speed is huge.
It's not one of the best enhancements.

The benefits are good, but when you factor in the huge cost of wasting THREE feats to get it, it works out to only mildly above-average enhancement.

Angelus_dead
02-24-2008, 08:03 PM
There is nothing in PnP that says a Rogue, Barb, Paladin, Monk,... or even any class can't get the Tempest Prestige Class.
The requirements of five feats mean that in practice, you could only expect it to go to a class getting relevant bonus feats. That means fighters or rangers (or possibly some weirdo class like CWar samurai).

Look at it from a DDO perspective: A human barb has 7 feats by level 16. It would take 5 to qualify for Tempest, then 1 more for Greater TWF (which, if you care about TWF hit rate isn't an option). There's only 1 left, so its a painful tradeoff between Power Attack, Improved Crit, and Oversized TWF.

Virtually no human non-fighter non-ranger could accept that cost in feats. And a non-human would be in even worse shape.

Invalid_86
02-24-2008, 08:35 PM
Prestige classes that actually require a specific class are few and far between- and they are that way for a reason. If a fighter takes the feats there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to be a tempest.



now the Arcane Trickster does have a Sneak Attack prerequisite of 2d6 which means (unless another class exists in the campaign world that gets sneak attack or the equivilent ie sudden strike or skirmish) that the character must have rogue levels to attain this PrC... but only as relates to a Feature (Sneak Attack)
Aesop

They could get that from a prestige class that doesn't have a sneak attack requirement- like temple raider of Olidammara. You could go ranger/wizard to temple raider to arcane trickster. Probably not the most efficient way to get there though.

Aesop
02-24-2008, 08:49 PM
ranger do not get massive feats compared to pnp they get the same stuff...only one im not sure about is die hard but die hard is worthless cuz when does something not take you to -500 hp anymore...like i said make a ranger if its a problem... same hp's... self heal overall better class anyways..oh and just so you know i do not have a tempest yet and my main is a ftr...

Oddly enough I wish my rogue could afford Diehard... I can't tell you the number of times I've sat watching the countdown recently... At level 16

Aesop

jmonty
02-24-2008, 08:52 PM
no way. if you want a tempest character, take 6 levels of ranger.

Aesop
02-24-2008, 08:57 PM
The requirements of five feats mean that in practice, you could only expect it to go to a class getting relevant bonus feats. That means fighters or rangers (or possibly some weirdo class like CWar samurai).

Look at it from a DDO perspective: A human barb has 7 feats by level 16. It would take 5 to qualify for Tempest, then 1 more for Greater TWF (which, if you care about TWF hit rate isn't an option). There's only 1 left, so its a painful tradeoff between Power Attack, Improved Crit, and Oversized TWF.

Virtually no human non-fighter non-ranger could accept that cost in feats. And a non-human would be in even worse shape.

Human Rogue level 10 could take Tempest

in fact a Wizard at level 13 could as well (gods know why a wizard would but hey its just theory) and the only

its only a 5 level PrC after all

but really the better example would be a Human Barbarian that took a level of fighter at could by level 7 take tempest...

I'm currently making a Scout with Tempest in mind... A highly mobile fighter with a little extra damage to make the baduns cry

Aesop

Vhlad
02-24-2008, 08:58 PM
ranger do not get massive feats compared to pnp they get the same stuff...only one im not sure about is die hard but die hard is worthless cuz when does something not take you to -500 hp anymore...like i said make a ranger if its a problem... same hp's... self heal overall better class anyways..oh and just so you know i do not have a tempest yet and my main is a ftr...

In pnp a ranger has to choose ranged or melee. They get either all the TWF feats or all the ranged feats, not both. Getting both in DDO is a lot of extra feats.

They are missing a few ranger feats from pnp, like swift tracker, but they do get other free feats to make up for that, like die hard.

Again, ranger is not a requirement for tempest in pnp. Why is it in DDO? Why not fix a rangers ranged combat instead of giving them all this extra stuff for melee?

Aesop
02-24-2008, 08:59 PM
Prestige classes that actually require a specific class are few and far between- and they are that way for a reason. If a fighter takes the feats there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to be a tempest.



They could get that from a prestige class that doesn't have a sneak attack requirement- like temple raider of Olidammara. You could go ranger/wizard to temple raider to arcane trickster. Probably not the most efficient way to get there though.


Temple Raider wouldn't be my first choice... maybe Assassin :D of course I'm not a fan of Arcane Trickster anyway... I like the Nightsong Enforcer a bit though

Aesop

Staedtler
02-24-2008, 09:10 PM
Fighters won't get new enhancements unless they spend several months whining, like rangers did.

Really, the only way to get dev time devoted to your enhancement system is to make months worth of threads complaining about how you "need love." Case in point: Paladins, Rangers, Rogues.

Vhlad
02-24-2008, 09:20 PM
Fighters won't get new enhancements unless they spend several months whining, like rangers did.

Really, the only way to get dev time devoted to your enhancement system is to make months worth of threads complaining about how you "need love." Case in point: Paladins, Rangers, Rogues.

My fear now is that they will stray even further from pnp and put high level fighter enhancements, with arbitrary lvl requirements.
Like req lvl 20 fighter.

Really screw over anyone who splashed.

I'd much prefer to see skill points, stats, feats, race, base attack bonus, and character level be the only requirements for the majority of enhancements, rather than mostly based on class.

Staedtler
02-24-2008, 09:22 PM
My fear now is that they will put high level fighter enhancements, with arbitrary lvl requirements.
Like req lvl 20 fighter.

Really screw over anyone who splashed.

Add to my list of people who complained for "love": pureclasses.

Vhlad
02-24-2008, 09:24 PM
Add to my list of people who complained for "love": pureclasses.

I just complained against love: pureclass.

Silly o_O

Staedtler
02-24-2008, 09:27 PM
I just complained against love: pureclass.

Silly o_O

No, I agree with you. It's silly to have enhancements based purely on class levels and goes against everything set down by all PrCs to date.

It's just that the only way to get any dev time thrown into making new enhancements is to ***** ***** *****.

Aesop
02-24-2008, 09:31 PM
Stuff like this...

Fighters Suggestions

Fighter Critical Accuracy: make this a Seeker effect that stacks with Seeker effects as opposed to the current only a plus to critical confirmation

Fighter Weapon Mastery: The fighter chooses a Weapon from the group that he/she has Weapon Specialization in and gains a +1 (+2 at second tier) to attack, damage, save (for trip/stun/etc) and seeker (see Fighter Critical Accuracy suggestion above) with that weapon single weapon type (ie Long Sword, Khopesh, War Hammer, Rapier, etc)

a couple of other possible suggestions for fighters

Fighter Dirty Fighting: Stunning Blow, Fighter Stunning Blow III, Power Attack, Improved Crit Bludgeoning, Weapon Spec: Bludgeoning

Gain a +2 to the DC of your Stun Attempt. Also Stun on a Confirmed Critical (DC as per the normal Stun DC)


Fighter Knockdown : Improved Trip, Fighter Improved Trip III, Weapon Spec: (Any Melee), Improved Crit: (Any Melee)

Gain a +2 to the DC of your Trip Attack. Also Trip on a Confirmed Critical (DC as per normal Trip Attack)


Fighter Rend: Improved Sunder, Fighter Sunder III, Improved Crit (Any Melee), Weapon Spec (Any Melee)

Gain +2 to the DC of Sunder, reduce the Cool down timer by 5 sec (to 15 Sec cool down), AC of target s reduced by 6, DR is reduced by 5, Sunder on a Critical

Aesop
02-24-2008, 09:34 PM
As a note I'd still like to see a revamp to make Enhancements based on Feats Features and Skills

Features include Class and Racial Features

Aesop

dns801
02-24-2008, 09:50 PM
In pnp a ranger has to choose ranged or melee. They get either all the TWF feats or all the ranged feats, not both. Getting both in DDO is a lot of extra feats.

They are missing a few ranger feats from pnp, like swift tracker, but they do get other free feats to make up for that, like die hard.

Again, ranger is not a requirement for tempest in pnp. Why is it in DDO? Why not fix a rangers ranged combat instead of giving them all this extra stuff for melee?

doesnt really matter what tempest rgr uses a bow... you dont have the extra feats for any of the bow feats so using one is worthless and the only advantage you ahve is bow strenght... woop dee doo. same goes other way around... very bad argument.

as far as whinning enough for a change it wont happen because a ranger had always been weaker, they finally made it so that a ranger has the same ability to kill...lets face it b4 this the only reason ppl wanted rangers int heir groups was to kill the demon queen...ranger wants to go on a dragon run... good luck have to make your own group... well with this a ranger is just as capable so stop the crying because they made a ranger equal...

oh and i almost forgot...
as always.. THIS IS DDO NOT PNP

dns801
02-24-2008, 09:52 PM
Stuff like this...

Fighters Suggestions

Fighter Critical Accuracy: make this a Seeker effect that stacks with Seeker effects as opposed to the current only a plus to critical confirmation

Fighter Weapon Mastery: The fighter chooses a Weapon from the group that he/she has Weapon Specialization in and gains a +1 (+2 at second tier) to attack, damage, save (for trip/stun/etc) and seeker (see Fighter Critical Accuracy suggestion above) with that weapon single weapon type (ie Long Sword, Khopesh, War Hammer, Rapier, etc)

a couple of other possible suggestions for fighters

Fighter Dirty Fighting: Stunning Blow, Fighter Stunning Blow III, Power Attack, Improved Crit Bludgeoning, Weapon Spec: Bludgeoning

Gain a +2 to the DC of your Stun Attempt. Also Stun on a Confirmed Critical (DC as per the normal Stun DC)


Fighter Knockdown : Improved Trip, Fighter Improved Trip III, Weapon Spec: (Any Melee), Improved Crit: (Any Melee)

Gain a +2 to the DC of your Trip Attack. Also Trip on a Confirmed Critical (DC as per normal Trip Attack)


Fighter Rend: Improved Sunder, Fighter Sunder III, Improved Crit (Any Melee), Weapon Spec (Any Melee)

Gain +2 to the DC of Sunder, reduce the Cool down timer by 5 sec (to 15 Sec cool down), AC of target s reduced by 6, DR is reduced by 5, Sunder on a Critical

you make a very good point, but instead of focusing what ppl can do with their toons they gotta focus on what they cant do and others can... wellthen make a new toon :D

Aesop
02-24-2008, 10:05 PM
doesnt really matter what tempest rgr uses a bow... you dont have the extra feats for any of the bow feats so using one is worthless and the only advantage you ahve is bow strenght... woop dee doo. same goes other way around... very bad argument.

as far as whinning enough for a change it wont happen because a ranger had always been weaker, they finally made it so that a ranger has the same ability to kill...lets face it b4 this the only reason ppl wanted rangers int heir groups was to kill the demon queen...ranger wants to go on a dragon run... good luck have to make your own group... well with this a ranger is just as capable so stop the crying because they made a ranger equal...

oh and i almost forgot...
as always.. THIS IS DDO NOT PNP

but here Rangers do get the Ranged feats... a level 11 Ranger gets both Combat Mastery Styles... So a Tempest Ranger is almost as good with a bow as a Ranged Ranger.

Also Ranger was never really weaker people only perceived them to be.... same thing with rogues. That is the only problem with either class.

That said I gfully support a revamping of the Enhacnement system to change it from a class/race based system to a Feat, Feature and Skill based system. I will at some point when I don't have to sleep draw some suggestion for that up

Aesop

dns801
02-24-2008, 10:16 PM
but here Rangers do get the Ranged feats... a level 11 Ranger gets both Combat Mastery Styles... So a Tempest Ranger is almost as good with a bow as a Ranged Ranger.

Also Ranger was never really weaker people only perceived them to be.... same thing with rogues. That is the only problem with either class.

That said I gfully support a revamping of the Enhacnement system to change it from a class/race based system to a Feat, Feature and Skill based system. I will at some point when I don't have to sleep draw some suggestion for that up

Aesop

dont see what you mean that a tempest rgr with bow is as good as tempest w/o... like i said its a matter of feats if you have none of the bow feats then you are no better at ranging as a ranger as a dex ftr is...or a rouge. and yes rgr's had been by far weaker than other classes especially meleeing from the beginning. they've fixed the bow slightly since but it didnt bring them back in line with the strenghts of other melee classes. rouges never really were weaker ppl just cant figure out that they are support attackers and not tanks...but this discussion lies within rangers and not rouges thats a matter for a different day.

Aesop
02-24-2008, 10:38 PM
dont see what you mean that a tempest rgr with bow is as good as tempest w/o... like i said its a matter of feats if you have none of the bow feats then you are no better at ranging as a ranger as a dex ftr is...or a rouge. and yes rgr's had been by far weaker than other classes especially meleeing from the beginning. they've fixed the bow slightly since but it didnt bring them back in line with the strenghts of other melee classes. rouges never really were weaker ppl just cant figure out that they are support attackers and not tanks...but this discussion lies within rangers and not rouges thats a matter for a different day.

Rangers get Bow Strength (which is abogus Feature anyway) Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Precise SHot and Improved Precise Shot for free in addition to TWF ITWF and GTW. The only real relavant feat that a Tempest Ranger doesn't get that a Ranged spec'd Ranger would is Improved Critical: Ranged. So a tempest spec'd Ranger shoots a bow nigh unto as well as a Ranged spec'd ranger as pertains to the necessary combat feats.

And I still disagree about rangers being a weak class melee wise or for that matter in any way. They were never a weak melee class and since Beta they have been actually been getting slightly better and better. Even without Favored Enemy (which at this point can give as much as 10+ stackable damage to a number of different Mobs) they are still a good melee class.

dang it I need sleep and here I am talking game stuff... good night I'll continue tomorrow if necessary

Aesop

MysticTheurge
02-24-2008, 10:45 PM
You know, honestly, it's a pretty significant departure from D&D, but I don't have a problem with PrEs being class-specific. It gives different classes different options and seems to add a bit of interesting stuff to each of them. (Plus, for what it's worth, it seems more likely to be similar to 4E's "prestige paths" or whatever they're called.) It certainly doesn't seem likely to stop with Rangers and I'm sure Fighters will get their own "specialties" in due time. Though it would be nice if they could get on the ball and make more PrEs a bit faster.

But, if you were to remove the class requirements from them, you should just do so completely. There's no reason to make Tempest fighter/ranger only. Sure, there won't be a lot of other builds that choose to take it, but that's how D&D works. If you want to open it up, open it up and just make it feat-based. Don't make a half-assed job of it.

dns801
02-24-2008, 11:22 PM
You know, honestly, it's a pretty significant departure from D&D, but I don't have a problem with PrEs being class-specific. It gives different classes different options and seems to add a bit of interesting stuff to each of them. (Plus, for what it's worth, it seems more likely to be similar to 4E's "prestige paths" or whatever they're called.) It certainly doesn't seem likely to stop with Rangers and I'm sure Fighters will get their own "specialties" in due time. Though it would be nice if they could get on the ball and make more PrEs a bit faster.

But, if you were to remove the class requirements from them, you should just do so completely. There's no reason to make Tempest fighter/ranger only. Sure, there won't be a lot of other builds that choose to take it, but that's how D&D works. If you want to open it up, open it up and just make it feat-based. Don't make a half-assed job of it.

agreed give fighters their own stuff. it would be kind of plain to give them the same things...

Cavalier
02-25-2008, 01:38 AM
Um, might be wrong here, but if a fighter gets the Tempest PrC, doesn't he then not level as a fighter and as such, no more bonus feats?

Would giving a Fighter in DDO an enhancement to have the abilities of the Tempest without any drawbacks not overpower it?

Cold_Stele
02-25-2008, 02:00 AM
I don't think it's up for debate these days that Ftrs are in need of some love too.

Here's a spin on a Prestige Class as enhancement I'd love to see.


WeaponMaster

Requirements:

BAB 8, Intimidate 4

Feats Required: Weapon Focus (melee any), Dodge, Mobility, Combat expertise, Spring attack and Whirlwind.

Enhancement:

Weapon of choice (1AP) All other bonuses are detrmined by this choice of weapon. (i.e. longsword, khopesh etc etc.)

Ki Damage 1 (2AP) Inflict maximum damage with weapon of choice 1/rest. Requires weapon of choice.

Superior Focus (4AP) You gain +1 to all attack rolls with your weapon of choice. Requires Ki Damage.

Increased multiplier (4AP) Your weapon of choice gains an additional x1 critical multiplier. Requires Superior Focus.

Ki Critical (4AP) You gain +2 to the threat range of your weapon of choice. This stacks after Improved critical. Required Increased multiplier.

Originally appeared in PnP's Sword & Fist and Oriental Adventures before being immortalized in memory as a Prestige Class in NWN and NWN2. The most popular Ftr based Prestige Class ever?

Angelus_dead
02-25-2008, 02:24 AM
Would giving a Fighter in DDO an enhancement to have the abilities of the Tempest without any drawbacks not overpower it?
The abilities of the DDO tempest enhancement have only a slight and superficial resembelance to what a D&D tempest does.

Vhlad
02-25-2008, 05:02 AM
Um, might be wrong here, but if a fighter gets the Tempest PrC, doesn't he then not level as a fighter and as such, no more bonus feats?

Would giving a Fighter in DDO an enhancement to have the abilities of the Tempest without any drawbacks not overpower it?

Same thing for a ranger going tempest in pnp. No more bonus ranger feats, favored enemy, spell progression, etc.

CSFurious
02-25-2008, 05:58 AM
fighters who fight with 2-weapons are just gimped rangers

there should be a benefit to being a ranger & this is one of those benefits

let's give fighters songs to play while we are at it as well:confused::eek::mad::(:cool:


The new Tempest enhancement for Rangers should be changed so Fighters can get it too.

The requirements should be changed to:
Ranger1 or Fighter1, character level 6, Improved TWF, Spring Attack.

That would slightly increase the flexibility of character builds. Note that although it might be nicer theoretically to allow characters of any class to take it, in practice only a fighter or ranger is likely to muster up the five feats needed to qualify.

MysticTheurge
02-25-2008, 07:01 AM
The abilities of the DDO tempest enhancement have only a slight and superficial resembelance to what a D&D tempest does.

Doesn't this kind of remove the fangs from the "Fighters can be tempests in D&D" argument?

llevenbaxx
02-25-2008, 07:08 AM
All enhancements should have been have been based on feat and stat requirements. Game would have been much better off, nothing new here, just another example.

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 07:15 AM
Well it seems like it's really geared towards Rangers in PnP so I guess that's why they gave the love to Rangers only.
How do you figure?

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 07:24 AM
Thanks to the person who pointed out where the Tempest Ranger was originally found.

Here's my take on the subject (and yes I'm biased since I have 4 rangers). Fighters already get almost twice as many feats as any other class besides wizard. So the pain of taking 3 feats to get the enhancement isn't felt like it is for a ranger. The devs wanted to throw the rangers some lovin' but still wanted it to be a big decision for us. For a pure TWF Fighter it's a no-brainer, you take the enhancement but for a pure ranger (no splashing) it becomes a hard choice whether or not to take it. I would even say that this enhancement has almost forced many rangers to splash a level or two of fighter just to make the decision easier.

So while I agree, to a point, that all classes should be able to take all enhancements, I also agree that the devs should set the enhancements to be usable at different levels depending on class.

For instance, the Tempest enhancement could be given to rangers at 6th level, fighters a 12th level and everyone else at 18th level. I'm not saying that what the break should be, I'm just giving an example.

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 07:25 AM
How do you figure?

Keep reading.

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 07:29 AM
Um, might be wrong here, but if a fighter gets the Tempest PrC, doesn't he then not level as a fighter and as such, no more bonus feats?

Would giving a Fighter in DDO an enhancement to have the abilities of the Tempest without any drawbacks not overpower it?

A ranger with the Tempest PrC loses all Lv4 Ranger Spells, 5th Favored Enemy, and Hiding in Plain Sight.

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 07:31 AM
A ranger with the Tempest PrC loses all Lv4 Ranger Spells, 5th Favored Enemy, and Hiding in Plain Sight.

Hey Espy, the stuff you keep replying to has already been answered or talked about.

Vhlad
02-25-2008, 08:45 AM
Fighters already get almost twice as many feats as any other class besides wizard.

O RLY?

Bonus feats for fighter: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.
9 feats. 12 if you include medium armor, heavy armor, and tower shield

Bonus feats for ranger: bow strength, wild empathy, rapid shot, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, manyshot, improved wild empathy, evasion, precise shot, improved precise shot, 4 favored enemies, die hard, and STWF in the next patch.
17 feats.

Rangers also have 4 more skill points per level, more class skills, two primary saving throws instead of 1, and spell casting, compared to fighters who's only other advantage is they roll a d10 instead of a d8.

They need to stop farting over the balance from pnp by giving rangers extra stuff and fix ranged combat.

Kerr
02-25-2008, 08:53 AM
It's called Tempest Ranger.

Not Tempest Fighter.

Why not just ask for the Way of the Assassin too?

Vhlad
02-25-2008, 08:59 AM
It's called Tempest Ranger.

Not Tempest Fighter.


No, it's not. It is called Tempest. (master of fighting with two weapons)
(CAdv p81)

And it has nothing to do with being a ranger.

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 09:12 AM
They need to stop farting over the balance from pnp by giving rangers extra stuff and fix ranged combat.
Aside from the fact that we rangers were given both combat lines due to the lack of our Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#animalCompanion).

bobbryan2
02-25-2008, 09:15 AM
I personally wouldn't make any use of this enhancement on my fighter. I don't even have plans to make use of this on my Ranger because the loss of 3 feats is just stupid, but I have a few points.

1.) If give fighters Tempest, we should just give Fighters songs, way of the assassing, etc.

Get over yourself... that isn't a real point. Tempest has nothing specifically geared towards rangers except in DDO. A fighter's whole perk as an entire class is the ability to mold himself into whatever kind of combatant he wants to be. (Unless of course he wants to be more like a ranger, right?) The fact that Rangers have Bow Strength is already stupid and should be (at the very least) a feat anyone should take. It seems like the devs don't know how to roll up Rangers and keep thinking their gimped. A ranger is second in the lineup of DPS in front of Fighters and Paladins.

2.) Rangers somehow need more feats to be viable as a class.

Let's face it. If you still think rangers are gimped, you're building them wrong. Ranged combat needs some work admittedly. I think they could also change deepwood sniper to more closely resemble a raging barbarians critical rage since a raging ranging barbarian is a far better archer than a ranger could ever be.

But if you're a melee class (and tempests are) you are only gimped if you gimped yourself.

These kinds of class struggles always sound hollow in a game where people can have 9 different capped characters. I would have no problems giving the Tempest enhancement to fighters. Fighters and Paladins need a bit of an uptweak now, not ranger and barbarians.

(Still bitter about how much the Critical Rage enhancements broke down the melee lineup)

I don't get it... you realize that the SoS is overpowered because you fooled around with criticals... and then you give the ability to Barbs to overpower themselves at will? Whatev...

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 10:08 AM
O RLY?

Bonus feats for fighter: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.
9 feats. 12 if you include medium armor, heavy armor, and tower shield

Bonus feats for ranger: bow strength, wild empathy, rapid shot, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, manyshot, improved wild empathy, evasion, precise shot, improved precise shot, 4 favored enemies, and STWF in the next patch.
16 feats.

Rangers also have 4 more skill points per level, more class skills, two primary saving throws instead of 1, and spell casting, compared to fighters who's only other advantage is they roll a d10 instead of a d8.

They need to stop farting over the balance from pnp by giving rangers extra stuff and fix ranged combat.

YES O RLY!

Selectable feats is what I'm talking about. It's not my STR based rangers fault that I'm given the bow feats as well as the TWF feats. If you want Fighters to have spells the wait for 4.0 and you'll be happy.

When there's Ranger Toughness, Ranger Armor Mastery, etc. I'll be more than happy to give you the Tempest enhancement.

While we're on it, I want my 2d8 at first level back as well! :D

Vorn
02-25-2008, 10:39 AM
No, it's not. It is called Tempest. (master of fighting with two weapons)
(CAdv p81)

And it has nothing to do with being a ranger.


It does require being in light armor.
I don't mind it being ranger class specific. I'd just hope that there are some fighter specific PrC enhancement lines for us future. I weary of the class jealousy thing...I would like to see more creative PrC enhancement options for all classes. Maybe in Mod 8?:)

Vhlad
02-25-2008, 10:49 AM
It's supposed to be YA RLY. ><

1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.

TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF
That's 4 fighter feats spent. Ranger gets those for free AND the rangers don't even need 19 dex to get them.

4x favored enemy. What do you think those are worth?
Considering we can swap feats at will, and tune ourselves to each mod, I'd say 4x favored enemy are worth:
weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, and more.

So now we're at 8, minimum. Evasion for 9th feat and we're basically even with all the fighter bonus feats being cancelled out with good stuff.

On top of that, ranger gets all the extra bow feats, die hard, and the empathy feats.
Spell casting, an extra primary saving throw (i.e. +5 more reflex save at lvl 16), +4 extra skill points per level more than the fighter, more class skills (I'm repeating myself here)...

And a fighter gets 1d10 instead of 1d8.

If you tried to create the DDO ranger using the pnp 3.5 custom class generators, the score would be way way off.

Rangers don't need loving. They're not weak. I think perhaps a lot of new / weak players choose ranger and don't build them right, but the class is very strong in DDO compared to pnp.

Edit:
At this point, I would prefer they focused on improving ranged combat, rather than marginalize the fighters/paladins further by making rangers superior at melee via custom DDO enhancements. Bobbryan2 is right in that the barbarian crit rage hit the fighters/paladins hard already.

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 10:52 AM
It does require being in light armor.
I don't mind it being ranger class specific. I'd just hope that there are some fighter specific PrC enhancement lines for us future. I weary of the class jealousy thing...I would like to see more creative PrC enhancement options for all classes. Maybe in Mod 8?:)
You do realize that in getting enough dexterity for Greater Two Weapon fighting in PnP means having at least 19 dexterity, right? That means the PnP fighter can aim for an eventual +5 Mithral Breastplate (+5 max dex bonus, or 20 dexterity), and still have the Tempest Bonuses.

And unlike here, there is no real requirement, or even lean on the Fighter class in PnP to be Strength Heavy. Heck, there's even a way for Fighters in PnP to make use of a somewhat decent *Wisdom*.

There are a lot of archery based feats in PnP. More than a Ranger could get. Archery Focused Fighter in PnP will be far more powerful at Archery than any Ranger.

Rangers are no more Master Archers than they are Master TWF combatants. That's why they get *spells*.

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 10:57 AM
It's supposed to be YA RLY. ><

1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.

TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF
That's 4 fighter feats spent. Ranger gets those for free.

4x favored enemy. What do you think those are worth?
Considering we can swap feats at will, and tune ourselves to each mod, I'd say 4x favored enemy are worth:
weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, and more.

So now we're at 8, minimum. Evasion for 9th feat and we're basically even with all the fighter bonus feats being cancelled out with good stuff.

On top of that, ranger gets all the extra bow feats, die hard, and the empathy feats.
Spell casting, an extra primary saving throw (i.e. +5 more reflex save at lvl 16), +4 extra skill points per level more than the fighter, more class skills (I'm repeating myself here)...

And a fighter gets 1d10 instead of 1d8.

If you tried to create the DDO ranger using the pnp 3.5 custom class generators, the score would be way way off.

Rangers don't need loving. They're not weak. I think perhaps a lot of new / weak players choose ranger and don't build them right, but the class is very strong in DDO compared to pnp.

No I didn't want to say YA RLY so I didn't. :)

I completely understand what you are saying but PnP defined the bonuses that Rangers get not DDO.

And you are completely correct, Ranger is a great class but it seems to have the most poor players.

Vorn
02-25-2008, 11:03 AM
You do realize that in getting enough dexterity for Greater Two Weapon fighting in PnP means having at least 19 dexterity, right?

Yep. You can even take FAM to get even more AC out of that +5 MBP.:)
I just happen to disagree with the premise that PrC enhancement lines need by necessity be opened to other classes. My personal preference would be for more PrC enhancement lines for each class, that's all.

Serpent
02-25-2008, 12:17 PM
This thread is all fine and good. The OP posted because he probably has a twf fighter and would like the benefit of tempest. I agree that fighters should have this benefit. I also agree more with the idea that fighters need some love of some sort beyond getting access to another prc designed for another class.

I have played a fighter from the get go. I love him and he is powerful. But as the game has advanced he has gotten left behind more and more.

Need a sheild blocker and intimitank, get a pally

Need DPS, get a ranger or a barb or heck even a warchanter.

I propese that fighters get something more. Their enhancement list is by far the smallest.

How about an enhancement for weapon specialization?

2ap = +1 damage
4ap = +3
6ap = +5

Only fighters of 4th level or higher get this ability. It not too powerful but it still helps in the dps department

How about DR boost to sheild block?

1ap = +2dr
2ap = +4
3ap = +6
4ap = +8

This will certainly help all thise intimitank builds and actually make them better at what they do.

How about favored crit threat?

4ap = +1 to multiplier of crit
8ap (I know its a lot) = +2 multiplier of crit

Might be too powerful, but it could be very exciting, a counter balance to the barbs greater amount of crits to a fighters better training to hit vital areas for more damage.

I have more and maybe i'll post them in one thread someday. my fighter is also human so i ahve ideas there too. But since I expect massive angst against these ideas I'll just think a little more about posting

Vienemen
02-25-2008, 12:58 PM
Maybe just maybe fighters should get some ranged enhancements to increase rate of fire, damage, multiplier and threat range...maybe we can get some rangers to then want to trade some enhancement lines with the fighters.

Look as pointed out, tempest is not class specific. I have a twf fighter and this is what I would evolve him into if this were PnP and these options were the only things available. Fighters (and all other classes) are being denied this for no reason whatsoever. Oh and btw DDO isnt PnP but they both are D&D so lets nip that little craptastic excuse in the bud shall we?

I love how it is pointed out to that dns81 guy that his ranger gets more feats than fighters then he turns around and plays like they dont count cause he doesnt use them all or something...classic.



agreed that it should be allowed across the classes for the many obvious reasons pointed out above, /signed

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 01:04 PM
Yep. You can even take FAM to get even more AC out of that +5 MBP.:)
I just happen to disagree with the premise that PrC enhancement lines need by necessity be opened to other classes. My personal preference would be for more PrC enhancement lines for each class, that's all.
I was referring to Fighters in PnP, where things like Fighters Armor Mastery do not exist. Here, there is a bent toward making Fighters Strength-based due to the Fighter Strength Enhancement. There is no such thing in PnP however.

ehcsztein
02-25-2008, 01:10 PM
I'd rather fighters get their own distinct specialties rather than co-opting those from another class.

But, I guess that takes time and patience so I can understand the want for fighters to have this as it is in the game now and is the "shiney hot newness" etc.

But, it's not like tempest is game breaking-ly cool or anything.

It simply adds a bit of oomph to twf specced rangers that helps them out a bit on the frontline.

Fighters get enough to help them in that regard without 2ac and inreased attack speeds while twf. (HP / Feat selections / enhancements.)

I like the flavor added to the game so far in the specialty enhancements lines and am hopeful about the remaining classe/races receiving specialties as well.

So not /signed in support of seeing what the fighter specialties have in store.

Vienemen
02-25-2008, 03:03 PM
Fighters get enough to help them in that regard without 2ac and inreased attack speeds while twf. (HP / Feat selections / enhancements.)


Really? Glad you think that.

Anyways...I remember fighter enhancements going to others classes? Why cant we expect the same? ...item defense?

Turial
02-25-2008, 03:18 PM
Personally I'm fine with fighters having access to tempest. But I think that there should be more "way of" lines for all classes in general as well as second tiers to them.

Though I'm not up on the requirements for it as I'm a deepwood sniper. Do you have to take any ranger only enhancments to open tempest? If you do that may complicate things a bit for the fighters and Devs for recoding.

Yaga_Nub
02-25-2008, 03:20 PM
Personally I'm fine with fighters having access to tempest. But I think that there should be more "way of" lines for all classes in general as well as second tiers to them.

Though I'm not up on the requirements for it as I'm a deepwood sniper. Do you have to take any ranger only enhancments to open tempest? If you do that may complicate things a bit for the fighters and Devs for recoding.

Just Dodge, Mobility and then Spring Attack if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I guess that's where I have a problem with allowing all the classes to have any "prestige" enhancements. You would then have to make special requirement for each class or you would have to change requirement of the prestige enhancements.

For instance, deepwood sniper requires something like Ranger Hide II, Ranger Sneak II and Ranger Move Silently (is that right?). I think only rogues, elves and halflings get enhancements to hide, sneak and move silently (if that) so how would other classes qualify for the deepwood sniper enhancement?

Mad_Bombardier
02-25-2008, 03:28 PM
Just Dodge, Mobility and then Spring Attack if I remember correctly.Plus Ranger6. Technically, it also requires TWF, ImpTWF, and BAB+6, which are all free for Ranger6. The Fighter version would have to add those feat prereqs and would likely be Fighter6.

Turial
02-25-2008, 03:35 PM
Just Dodge, Mobility and then Spring Attack if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I guess that's where I have a problem with allowing all the classes to have any "prestige" enhancements. You would then have to make special requirement for each class or you would have to change requirement of the prestige enhancements.

For instance, deepwood sniper requires something like Ranger Hide II, Ranger Sneak II and Ranger Move Silently (is that right?). I think only rogues, elves and halflings get enhancements to hide, sneak and move silently (if that) so how would other classes qualify for the deepwood sniper enhancement?

Yeah thats the rub alright.

ehcsztein
02-25-2008, 03:51 PM
Really? Glad you think that.

Anyways...I remember fighter enhancements going to others classes? Why cant we expect the same? ...item defense?


I don't think it. I know it. No class offers the flexibility (i.e. options) in character design for frontline combat that fighters do.

If you feel the options are not up to your standards that is not my concern, nor does it remove the options that do exist in the game.

Enhancements and specialization enhancements are apples and oranges.

Should a pure fighter be able to be a "spellsinger" or follow the "way of the assassin" ?

rimble
02-25-2008, 03:57 PM
For instance, deepwood sniper requires something like Ranger Hide II, Ranger Sneak II and Ranger Move Silently (is that right?). I think only rogues, elves and halflings get enhancements to hide, sneak and move silently (if that) so how would other classes qualify for the deepwood sniper enhancement?

That's sort of another problem in my opinion. The skill Enhancement requirements should just be skill rank requirements. This would more accurately reproduce the Prestige Class concept from PnP. Basically, there are frequently optimal ways to a certain PrC (in this case, Ranger 6) but you can often get there other ways, just a little slower (say a Fighter 9, spending cross-class on Hide and Move Silently).

Alternately, you could be 1 Rogue/X Fighter to get your skill up, or 2 Ranger/X Paladin...or any unlimited combination of things. By putting that 'Ranger 6' or 'Ranger Hide II' in there the whole awesome concept of multi-classing introduced in the D&D PnP system is obliterated.

Again, some implied class restrictions are unavoidable. If Way of the Assasin required 2d6 Sneak Attack, we really only have one way to go about that right now.

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 03:59 PM
That's sort of another problem in my opinion. The skill Enhancement requirements should just be skill rank requirements. This would more accurately reproduce the Prestige Class concept from PnP. Basically, there are frequently optimal ways to a certain PrC (in this case, Ranger 6) but you can often get there other ways, just a little slower (say a Fighter 9, spending cross-class on Hide and Move Silently).

Alternately, you could be 1 Rogue/X Fighter to get your skill up, or 2 Ranger/X Paladin...or any unlimited combination of things. By putting that 'Ranger 6' or 'Ranger Hide II' in there the whole awesome concept of multi-classing introduced in the D&D PnP system is obliterated.

Hmm. So instead of Ranger 6 and Ranger Hide II, it could require +6 BAB and 9 Ranks in Hide?

Heh, Fighters wouldn't be able to qualify as a pure class until level 15.

rimble
02-25-2008, 04:00 PM
Hmm. So instead of Ranger 6 and Ranger Hide II, it could require +6 BAB and 9 Ranks in Hide?

Heh, Fighters wouldn't be able to qualify as a pure class until level 15.

But they could, that's the beauty! Or they could splash some other levels to qualify sooner. That's the whole point. OPTIONS!

Lebrac
02-25-2008, 04:08 PM
The new Tempest enhancement for Rangers should be changed so Fighters can get it too.

The requirements should be changed to:
Ranger1 or Fighter1, character level 6, Improved TWF, Spring Attack.

That would slightly increase the flexibility of character builds. Note that although it might be nicer theoretically to allow characters of any class to take it, in practice only a fighter or ranger is likely to muster up the five feats needed to qualify.

SO if your going to give Fighters Tempest then you need to give Ranger the STR line of Enhancements cause not all Rangers are Dex based.

rimble
02-25-2008, 04:14 PM
SO if your going to give Fighters Tempest then you need to give Ranger the STR line of Enhancements cause not all Rangers are Dex based.

But then you need to give Fighters the Dex line because not all Fighters are Strength based! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

We're all suffering under the developers idea of what each race/class should be, as reflected in the Enhancement system. I don't like it. = (

Aesop
02-25-2008, 04:46 PM
But then you need to give Fighters the Dex line because not all Fighters are Strength based! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

We're all suffering under the developers idea of what each race/class should be, as reflected in the Enhancement system. I don't like it. = (

ditto

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 04:49 PM
But then you need to give Fighters the Dex line because not all Fighters are Strength based! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

We're all suffering under the developers idea of what each race/class should be, as reflected in the Enhancement system. I don't like it. = (
OR

Just rip out the entire enhancement system and scale back all the monsters and traps to reflect the smaller numbers overall.

Aesop
02-25-2008, 04:52 PM
OR

Just rip out the entire enhancement system and scale back all the monsters and traps to reflect the smaller numbers overall.

yeah they could do that... but they are gonna want to do something flavor wise in between levels still... and then they are gonna have to make real PrCs and that could take a long time

Aesop

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 04:57 PM
yeah they could do that... but they are gonna want to do something flavor wise in between levels still... and then they are gonna have to make real PrCs and that could take a long time

Aesop

Fine. Give us Action Points. *ACTUAL* action points. Like in the Eberron Campaign Setting: You use one, and you get some bonus on d20 rolls for a short bit, similar to our Action Boosts. Have Ranks be the points at which they refill, possibly give an amount based on your actual level, increasable via Feats. Would have to be more than what is given per level in PnP due to the increased number of encounters.

Aesop
02-25-2008, 04:59 PM
Fine. Give us Action Points. *ACTUAL* action points. Like in the Eberron Campaign Setting: You use one, and you get some bonus on d20 rolls for a short bit, similar to our Action Boosts. Have Ranks be the points at which they refill, possibly give an amount based on your actual level, increasable via Feats. Would have to be more than what is given per level in PnP due to the increased number of encounters.

yeah didn't we suggest that back in beta ;)

but they would still need to get real PrCs

Aesop

MysticTheurge
02-25-2008, 05:03 PM
At the risk of losing all of my "Be like D&D" club credentials, I actually like the enhancement system. And the PrE implementation of PrCs.

Yeah, it's different, but it's still good.

EspyLacopa
02-25-2008, 05:03 PM
yeah didn't we suggest that back in beta ;)

but they would still need to get real PrCs

Aesop
Then they can spend all this time they're using to balance current enhancements and make new ones to instead create Prestige Classes.

dragnmoon
02-25-2008, 05:04 PM
At the risk of losing all of my "Be like D&D" club credentials, I actually like the enhancement system. And the PrE implementation of PrCs.

Yeah, it's different, but it's still good.

Mystic... Sorry you "Be Like D&D" Member card has been revoked, Please hand it over so it can be shredded and discarded :D:p;)

Turial
02-25-2008, 05:08 PM
OR

Just rip out the entire enhancement system and scale back all the monsters and traps to reflect the smaller numbers overall.

Shhh....that makes to much sense and making sense makes peoples heads asplode.

bobbryan2
02-25-2008, 05:10 PM
Shhh....that makes to much sense and making sense makes peoples heads asplode.

Except for the part where it didn't make sense at all.

Ripping out a huge amount of leveling and completely restructuring the game from the ground up just because a few people thing that it helped DDO turn into a Monty Haul campaign is ludicrous.

Why not just make a completely seperate game for the amount of effort it would take.

MysticTheurge
02-25-2008, 05:59 PM
Except for the part where it didn't make sense at all.

Ripping out a huge amount of leveling and completely restructuring the game from the ground up just because a few people thing that it helped DDO turn into a Monty Haul campaign is ludicrous.

Why not just make a completely seperate game for the amount of effort it would take.

Yeah, it's funny to me, the people calling for DDO to be reworked into what would essentially a completely different game.

Honestly, has that ever worked well for an MMO?

dns801
02-25-2008, 07:19 PM
It's supposed to be YA RLY. ><

1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.

TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF
That's 4 fighter feats spent. Ranger gets those for free AND the rangers don't even need 19 dex to get them.

4x favored enemy. What do you think those are worth?
Considering we can swap feats at will, and tune ourselves to each mod, I'd say 4x favored enemy are worth:
weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, and more.

So now we're at 8, minimum. Evasion for 9th feat and we're basically even with all the fighter bonus feats being cancelled out with good stuff.

On top of that, ranger gets all the extra bow feats, die hard, and the empathy feats.
Spell casting, an extra primary saving throw (i.e. +5 more reflex save at lvl 16), +4 extra skill points per level more than the fighter, more class skills (I'm repeating myself here)...

And a fighter gets 1d10 instead of 1d8.

If you tried to create the DDO ranger using the pnp 3.5 custom class generators, the score would be way way off.

Rangers don't need loving. They're not weak. I think perhaps a lot of new / weak players choose ranger and don't build them right, but the class is very strong in DDO compared to pnp.

Edit:
At this point, I would prefer they focused on improving ranged combat, rather than marginalize the fighters/paladins further by making rangers superior at melee via custom DDO enhancements. Bobbryan2 is right in that the barbarian crit rage hit the fighters/paladins hard already.

i'd love to knwo where you got your math from as far as 4 fav enemies = 8 feats that is the dumbest thing i have heard on here yet even more so after you named the feats... those feats give permanent bonuses to each thing on any monster.. dur no where near worth 8 feats as you proclaim. alrdy said die hard is worthless and if you dont go beyond the granted feats your toon is a gimp anyways... so you still have to choose bow or twf..so the only thing you got there is that they get 2 main saves which is not a big deal.. and the ftr still gets more hp's.. if you are so worried about an extra save being higher then put more points into it at character generation.


Maybe just maybe fighters should get some ranged enhancements to increase rate of fire, damage, multiplier and threat range...maybe we can get some rangers to then want to trade some enhancement lines with the fighters.

Look as pointed out, tempest is not class specific. I have a twf fighter and this is what I would evolve him into if this were PnP and these options were the only things available. Fighters (and all other classes) are being denied this for no reason whatsoever. Oh and btw DDO isnt PnP but they both are D&D so lets nip that little craptastic excuse in the bud shall we?

I love how it is pointed out to that dns81 guy that his ranger gets more feats than fighters then he turns around and plays like they dont count cause he doesnt use them all or something...classic.



agreed that it should be allowed across the classes for the many obvious reasons pointed out above, /signed

why should a ftr get something that is specific for a ranger? as pointed out lets just give the ftr some bard songs too oh and greater rages as well!!! and yes a twf ranger does not use his bow skills because they are worthless try it out sometime and you'll see. same goes other way around. i do have a bow ranger... but do i dual wield on her? no because its pointless the feats that i had to take mke me better at ranging than at fighting. oh and btw if you knew anything about any changes that have ever been made in ddo you'd have learned that ddo is not pnp but apperently you'd just like to call ppl out without having any valuable info, bravo.


Really? Glad you think that.

Anyways...I remember fighter enhancements going to others classes? Why cant we expect the same? ...item defense?

lol again with a worthless enhancment especially now that your bound items no longer break...


I don't think it. I know it. No class offers the flexibility (i.e. options) in character design for frontline combat that fighters do.

If you feel the options are not up to your standards that is not my concern, nor does it remove the options that do exist in the game.

Enhancements and specialization enhancements are apples and oranges.

Should a pure fighter be able to be a "spellsinger" or follow the "way of the assassin" ?


love how no one answered to this one... makes a good point but i guess it struck such truth that no one has a good come back on it...he's something to try out instead of making the same old lame ftr make something interesting tripper stunner something. well maybe not tripper he's useless but a stunner very nice build for a ftr...

bobbryan2
02-25-2008, 07:39 PM
love how no one answered to this one... makes a good point but i guess it struck such truth that no one has a good come back on it...he's something to try out instead of making the same old lame ftr make something interesting tripper stunner something. well maybe not tripper he's useless but a stunner very nice build for a ftr...

No one answered it because it was a stupid misrepresentation of a point.

Asking fighters to get a combat technique which is unique to TWFs (and not to Rangers at all) is hardly the same as asking them to be able to smite evil and sing songs.

If it makes you feel better... then take... because it's that way in PnP.

dns801
02-25-2008, 07:47 PM
No one answered it because it was a stupid misrepresentation of a point.

Asking fighters to get a combat technique which is unique to TWFs (and not to Rangers at all) is hardly the same as asking them to be able to smite evil and sing songs.

If it makes you feel better... then take... because it's that way in PnP.

its a perfectly valid point he made.. this is not pnp devs try to do something to help rangers melee better and now a bunch of panzy gimped ftrs cry... thats the whole point of this thread...just because rangers get A, 1, enhancment that makes them better melee toons does not make them more capable then a ftr. is it because ppl are bored of being plain ftr's? i dunno if so then like i said MAKE A NEW TOON, or use some enhancments that ftr ALRDY HAVE to make it interesting... stop crying pointlessly like a little babie that didnt get a toy in his/her happy meal!!! wah wah wah...be creative. once again i will state that i ahve yet to make a tempest rgr and my main is a ftr..

brshelton
02-25-2008, 07:52 PM
No they shouldn't. They get whats called 18 feats at level 20. I think you'll be fine without it. And also splashing level of anything should NOT unlock anything not available at level 1 of that class!

Vhlad
02-25-2008, 08:18 PM
i'd love to knwo where you got your math from as far as 4 fav enemies = 8 feats that is the dumbest thing i have heard on here yet even more so after you named the feats...

I didn't say that at all. The 8 was including TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF. Read my post more carefully before you bash/quote it.


why should a ftr get something that is specific for a ranger?

Tempest is NOT specifc for a ranger. I said this already... PAGE 81, Complete adventurer. Tempest is for a lvl 6 fighter, lvl 6 ranger, or a lvl 12 barb/pally/wizard/rogue/etc.

bobbryan2
02-25-2008, 08:26 PM
No they shouldn't. They get whats called 18 feats at level 20. I think you'll be fine without it. And also splashing level of anything should NOT unlock anything not available at level 1 of that class!

And Rangers get just as many, some without the necessary prereqs.

For the record... I don't mind class specific prestige enhancement lines. But I also don't mind overlap.

What bugs me, though, is the lopsided way they're releasing PrC enhancements. One class at a time, taking a year frmo start to finish. I'd probably feel much less strongly if Fighters had their own Weaponmaster line or something open. Eventually I suppose.

dns801
02-25-2008, 08:45 PM
I didn't say that at all. The 8 was including TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF. Read my post more carefully before you bash/quote it.



Tempest is NOT specifc for a ranger. I said this already... PAGE 81, Complete adventurer. Tempest is for a lvl 6 fighter, lvl 6 ranger, or a lvl 12 barb/pally/wizard/rogue/etc.

well no matter what your feat counting makes no sense your pulling stuff out of your ... to TRY to make something sound viable but its not... two I SAID THIS ALRDY...put down the stupid book its DDO NOT PNP get it in your head...

dns801
02-25-2008, 08:46 PM
And Rangers get just as many, some without the necessary prereqs.

For the record... I don't mind class specific prestige enhancement lines. But I also don't mind overlap.

What bugs me, though, is the lopsided way they're releasing PrC enhancements. One class at a time, taking a year frmo start to finish. I'd probably feel much less strongly if Fighters had their own Weaponmaster line or something open. Eventually I suppose.


and its probably coming... it takes a while to write programs and if they released them all at once we'd be waiting till we all have gray hair... if we dont alrdy... haha

bobbryan2
02-25-2008, 08:53 PM
well no matter what your feat counting makes no sense your pulling stuff out of your ... to TRY to make something sound viable but its not... two I SAID THIS ALRDY...put down the stupid book its DDO NOT PNP get it in your head...


Rangers get sooo many free feats in DDO. He's pulling them out of the DDO Manual if anything.

TWF, GTWF, ITWF, Manyshot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid shot, die hard, 4 different favored enemies...

and they get the normal 6 feats to 16.

Rangers are more powerful than Fighters right now... at melee and ranged. Which is fine... I really don't mind that. But it seems weird to me for Rangers to feel some kind of ownership over a lukewarm enhancement tree.

dns801
02-25-2008, 09:11 PM
Rangers get sooo many free feats in DDO. He's pulling them out of the DDO Manual if anything.

TWF, GTWF, ITWF, Manyshot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid shot, die hard, 4 different favored enemies...

and they get the normal 6 feats to 16.

Rangers are more powerful than Fighters right now... at melee and ranged. Which is fine... I really don't mind that. But it seems weird to me for Rangers to feel some kind of ownership over a lukewarm enhancement tree.

like i said for the 3rd time now i do not have a ranger that has implemented tempest...and once again you can only set up properly to use 1 or the other making the one you dont use pretty worthless...its a fact try it!...die hard is a worthless feat let ftr's have it ahahahahah maybe then they'll stop complaining. and fav enemies are only useful if you are willing to spend all the extra enhancement points in using them leaving you with nearly nothing else to use ap's on...my ranged ranger does not have them and my melee ranger wont get them because he is also a roue would rather have rouge boosts than a little more dmg...so no a ranger is not "overpowered" byany means at all!

Serpent
02-26-2008, 12:37 AM
like i said for the 3rd time now i do not have a ranger that has implemented tempest...and once again you can only set up properly to use 1 or the other making the one you dont use pretty worthless...its a fact try it!

Actually they can do both just fine. My Ranger is dex and has both tempests and improved crit pierce and improved crit ranged. By all accounts that makes them just as good on both ends. You don't need every feat to do it correctly. It seems you are not tallying everything correctly.


fav enemies are only useful if you are willing to spend all the extra enhancement points in using them leaving you with nearly nothing else to use ap's on...my ranged ranger does not have them and my melee ranger wont get them because he is also a roue would rather have rouge boosts than a little more dmg...so no a ranger is not "overpowered" byany means at all!

Well if you self gimp then you are of course going to not be as good. The enhancements for the favored enemy are not that expensive and with the right list you cover over 75&#37; of the mobs in the game.

Are you saying you will not spend 20 ap to have +4 to hit/damage and +3 to ac against 75% of the mobs in the game? What are you spending your ap on, the ability to have more pets?

Rangers are not necessarily over powered but they are arguably the best fighters in the game right now. Maybe better than barbs except in situations where a boss stands still for the entire encounter and has a million hps. Actually I know of at least 4 rangers that out dps a barb in that situation.

Just because your ranger can't so these things does not mean they are not very powerful. Also, the feats you get from your class are still feats by the way. though I might not agree with the feat amount arguments, rangers still get the most in pure numbers.

dns801
02-26-2008, 01:40 AM
Actually they can do both just fine. My Ranger is dex and has both tempests and improved crit pierce and improved crit ranged. By all accounts that makes them just as good on both ends. You don't need every feat to do it correctly. It seems you are not tallying everything correctly.



Well if you self gimp then you are of course going to not be as good. The enhancements for the favored enemy are not that expensive and with the right list you cover over 75% of the mobs in the game.

Are you saying you will not spend 20 ap to have +4 to hit/damage and +3 to ac against 75% of the mobs in the game? What are you spending your ap on, the ability to have more pets?

Rangers are not necessarily over powered but they are arguably the best fighters in the game right now. Maybe better than barbs except in situations where a boss stands still for the entire encounter and has a million hps. Actually I know of at least 4 rangers that out dps a barb in that situation.

Just because your ranger can't so these things does not mean they are not very powerful. Also, the feats you get from your class are still feats by the way. though I might not agree with the feat amount arguments, rangers still get the most in pure numbers.

never said my ranger cant solo these things dont put words in ppls mouths... also a +4 to hit/dmg doesnt do any good if your rgr is built well in the first place... armor class doesnt reall y matter at all in most cases so only good thing that leaves are saves...if you put a well built rgr vs a well built barb or ftr w/o using stat dmgers the ranger will never win....gets the most feats in numbers maybe but most are junk and others cant be used to its potential by choosing a route to go...

Aesop
02-26-2008, 01:51 AM
never said my ranger cant solo these things dont put words in ppls mouths... also a +4 to hit/dmg doesnt do any good if your rgr is built well in the first place... armor class doesnt reall y matter at all in most cases so only good thing that leaves are saves...if you put a well built rgr vs a well built barb or ftr w/o using stat dmgers the ranger will never win....gets the most feats in numbers maybe but most are junk and others cant be used to its potential by choosing a route to go...

That is the most ridiculous thing I've read tonight and I've been reading web comics

Aesop

gpk
02-26-2008, 03:14 AM
never said my ranger cant solo these things dont put words in ppls mouths... also a +4 to hit/dmg doesnt do any good if your rgr is built well in the first place... armor class doesnt reall y matter at all in most cases so only good thing that leaves are saves...if you put a well built rgr vs a well built barb or ftr w/o using stat dmgers the ranger will never win....gets the most feats in numbers maybe but most are junk and others cant be used to its potential by choosing a route to go...

Holy cow +4 to hit/dmg doesn't do any good "if your ranger is built well" ? That's just ridiculous!

The nature of DDO is such that favored enemy cover the majority of threatening mobs; not much variety in what you encounter. Combine that with very cheap enhancements to add dmg, ac, saves and ab (AB is a bit more costly) and you have a very very strong class ability.

To not spend those APs and to say absurd thing like "+4 to hit/dmg doesn't do any good" is essentially sefl-nerfing.

Do you say "oh I don't want a +3 tome it would only boost my strength/dex bonus by +1" also? If so lemme come raid with you!

I think you are seriously underestimatign the value of favored enemy and it's cheap enhancement boots.

Serpent
02-26-2008, 03:32 AM
That is the most ridiculous thing I've read tonight and I've been reading web comics

Aesop

QFT and TWF ranger AC = 61 w/ favored enemy (68 with shield) and what words in who's mouth?

Mad_Bombardier
02-26-2008, 10:28 AM
Tempest is NOT specifc for a ranger. I said this already... PAGE 81, Complete adventurer. Tempest is for a lvl 6 fighter, lvl 6 ranger, or a lvl 12 barb/pally/wizard/rogue/etc.Actually, it's just BAB+6. But, you are correct in practice. In order for a pure Barb or Paly to take it, they'd have to have spent all 5 career feats through L12 (or be a L9 Human).

dns801
02-26-2008, 07:16 PM
Holy cow +4 to hit/dmg doesn't do any good "if your ranger is built well" ? That's just ridiculous!

The nature of DDO is such that favored enemy cover the majority of threatening mobs; not much variety in what you encounter. Combine that with very cheap enhancements to add dmg, ac, saves and ab (AB is a bit more costly) and you have a very very strong class ability.

To not spend those APs and to say absurd thing like "+4 to hit/dmg doesn't do any good" is essentially sefl-nerfing.

Do you say "oh I don't want a +3 tome it would only boost my strength/dex bonus by +1" also? If so lemme come raid with you!

I think you are seriously underestimatign the value of favored enemy and it's cheap enhancement boots.


if a +4 to hit bonus and dmg helps so so significantly then you got a gimpy build... and as a matter of fact yes if i alrdy have a +2 tome which i have in all my stats.. and a +3 would only make my stat uneven in the end what the point...oh but that one point must make a difference somewhere..oh tell me where mighty noob... besides if i were to EVER raid with you you couldnt pay me enough to give you anything... :D

Serpent
02-26-2008, 07:31 PM
if a +4 to hit bonus and dmg helps so so significantly then you got a gimpy build

For 20ap you are essentially adding +3 ac to your armor and +4 to the weapons that you wield. How is that bad? What do you spend your ap on, I just have to ask. You have made no actual argument as to why using a cheap enhancements is bad. And I'm sorry but having seen build like this used I have to say it is self gimp.

Then for an additional 4 ap you have +2 to ac when twf and 10&#37; alclarity. thats 24 ap out of 64. that leaves 40 ap to cover everything else. If that not enough you might be trying to hard.

And tell me what feats you have to take that a ranger doesn't already get to be a good ranged fighter. Improved crit ranged? Easy to fit that one in. what else? Nothing I can think of. Maybe shot on the run, but if you are missing when moving without that feat, then you are self gimped.

If a toon is powerful then gets to have an additional bonus to hit and damage, how is that not a good thing. I say try using them for a long period of time and see if its not an awesome bonus. I mean why even take a favored enemy, heck why even play a ranger. By your argument we should all play twf fighters.

Aesop
02-26-2008, 07:35 PM
+4 Damage per swing x 10 swings in an attack sequence= 40 damage ina 3sec time frame roughly... +13.3 DPS

without crits... with crits could probably raise the average up to +15 pretty easily

that is nothing to sneeze at

Aesop

Karavek
02-26-2008, 08:26 PM
fighters are already specialist, and though I would enjoy seeign a few specialties in their line based on ftr prestige classes, like say weapon master, battle rager for dwarves, and especially the feared Nightstalker for Drow(trust me only Drow would want to see it cus they are so very scary, and elf only), but giving them something largely meant for rangers and one of the few ways rangers compete with ftrs. Fact is many tempest are multi classing with ftr to meet the feats(though the feat req in no way challenges rangers who simply need to devote feats from 1,3,and 6 to make the req right at lvl6). What your really saying is you dont want to ahve to take levels in the softer ranger class to be the best two weapon fighter, which is also something meant to be part of the ranger class. Fighters specialize in weapons primarily styles secondary. Rangers specialize in tactics and styles for exactly two things bows and twin weapons and therefore should be dominant in thier fields. However perhaps you can join me in demanding they allow multi specialties and give better cause to further multiclass, because enhancments still encourage rather top heavy splits where I always found in PnP expecially if you did not play a favored class for your race, that keeping level progress like 1/1/1, then 2/2/2 and so on was the only way to avoid xp penalties for over multi classing, and usually go for prestige classes that could be met by 5 or 6 to then on not worry about it.

But granting a class with stronger armor use, more feats, more hp, and so many other strong benefits to melee the one new trick melee rangers have seems like a request with no thought of the further imbalance fighter enhancments, expecially when combined with dwarven enhancments have created in the warrior classes.

Id like to be for example a 6/6 ranger rogue with tempest and theif acrobat, which though becoming very agile would still not be as strong as a simple 6/6 ranger ftr with tempest and weapon specialization on top of armor mastery, dwarven armor mastery, dwarven axe mastery, and hey mabye a touch of rogue to for atk speed boost and evasion if you are not using the armor mastery mithril fp exploit as i call it.

Well that is two coppers from somone who knows in PnP no one takes more then 4 levels fighter pretty much ever, they have always been the first to ,multiclass then aquire a prestige class in my tabletop groups, after all basic ftr is meant to be rather limited, he needs to branch out into the elite warrior caste orders like weapon master and the like to attain that next tier of weapon skill.

Karavek
02-26-2008, 08:30 PM
Yes I know In PnP fighters can take it, but with the way enhancments work atm I dont really think fighters need the small tempest boost so very much.

Aesop
02-26-2008, 08:31 PM
I've played a number of Pure Fighters and at higher levels the feat combinations you can get can become soewn right awesome... don't count fighters out too much.

I personally feel that PrEs should be based around Feat and Skills like the PrCs that they represent not around 6 levels of a class. If you meet the prerequisites (Feats and Skills) then you can take the PrE... just like PrCs.

Its the way it is in PnP and I kinda like making different builds that take advantage of different styles of play. Like my Monk Duelist :D

Aesop

KatanAztar
02-26-2008, 08:38 PM
SO if your going to give Fighters Tempest then you need to give Ranger the STR line of Enhancements cause not all Rangers are Dex based.

It's called Rams might, and you dont need to spend enhancement points to get it either!

gpk
02-27-2008, 12:44 AM
if a +4 to hit bonus and dmg helps so so significantly then you got a gimpy build... and as a matter of fact yes if i alrdy have a +2 tome which i have in all my stats.. and a +3 would only make my stat uneven in the end what the point...oh but that one point must make a difference somewhere..oh tell me where mighty noob... besides if i were to EVER raid with you you couldnt pay me enough to give you anything... :D

LOL continuing along this ridiculous line of reasoning are we? A +4 to hit and dmg is a BIG boost and helps ANY class, ANY fighting build. Sounds to me, as I've said before, that you are the one that is self-nerfing (sefl-gimping if you prefer). Why did you bother with the +2 tomes then? It's only a +1 modifier right? If +4 is not good then surely +1 must be worthless right? If only you had done everyone in your raid groups a favor and not eaten any +2 tomes until you can get non-raid loot ones (i.e. now); I'm sure those meaningless little +1s would have helped them.

Eudimio
02-27-2008, 07:07 AM
Okay Serpent and GPK,

If you don't know or have forgotten, dns' main is a finesse halfling fighter. Do you remember that halfling running around the lobster pit on Riedra with a vorpal sickle? That's him. He relies on weapon effects entirely, not dps. So his to-hit is pumped-up to the max, and his damage is ignored. And who needs AC when you never draw aggro?

It would be safe to assume that he plays his ranger the same way. And it appears that he finds that the only proper way to play a character. So stop smashing your head against the wall, it's not gonna budge.

Happy Hunting.

Serpent
02-27-2008, 12:11 PM
Okay Serpent and GPK,

If you don't know or have forgotten, dns' main is a finesse halfling fighter. Do you remember that halfling running around the lobster pit on Riedra with a vorpal sickle? That's him. He relies on weapon effects entirely, not dps. So his to-hit is pumped-up to the max, and his damage is ignored. And who needs AC when you never draw aggro?

It would be safe to assume that he plays his ranger the same way. And it appears that he finds that the only proper way to play a character. So stop smashing your head against the wall, it's not gonna budge.

Happy Hunting.

O RLY makes more sense now.

dns801
02-27-2008, 01:10 PM
LOL continuing along this ridiculous line of reasoning are we? A +4 to hit and dmg is a BIG boost and helps ANY class, ANY fighting build. Sounds to me, as I've said before, that you are the one that is self-nerfing (sefl-gimping if you prefer). Why did you bother with the +2 tomes then? It's only a +1 modifier right? If +4 is not good then surely +1 must be worthless right? If only you had done everyone in your raid groups a favor and not eaten any +2 tomes until you can get non-raid loot ones (i.e. now); I'm sure those meaningless little +1s would have helped them.

how am i self nerfing if my build is good enough to hit anything be it normal or elite w/o wasting ap's on that line of enhancments... like is aid if you cant hit then you are the gimpy build..ive alrdy said what is use mine on and that is speed boosts disabling searching dex.... you know actual important things...tomes... sigh i could care less about tomes the only time they are remotely useful is when you have a prerequiste to meet in order to take a certain feat. let me guess you think that tomes are the most uber things in the game huh... rofl! ANYWAYS.. if you cant hit something without that line of enhancment s you oughta consider a re-roll cuz your toon sucks...

Angelus_dead
02-27-2008, 01:12 PM
how am i self nerfing if my build is good enough to hit anything be it normal or elite w/o wasting ap's on that line of enhancments... like is aid if you cant hit then you are the gimpy build..
It's not enough to just Hit things... you also need to have Damage to make those hits help.

Rangers contribute decently to the damage in a raid like Zawabi's Revenge, Reaver's Fate, or Thirteenth Eclipse because they have Favored Damage bonus on the boss. Take it away, and you've got nothing.

MysticTheurge
02-27-2008, 01:17 PM
It's not enough to just Hit things... you also need to have Damage to make those hits help.

Rangers contribute decently to the damage in a raid like Zawabi's Revenge, Reaver's Fate, or Thirteenth Eclipse because they have Favored Damage bonus on the boss. Take it away, and you've got nothing.

Not The Titan Awakes?

Or does it just not matter cause of the whole puzzle thing?

Angelus_dead
02-27-2008, 01:22 PM
Not The Titan Awakes?

Or does it just not matter cause of the whole puzzle thing?
Rangers do not typically have Construct as a favored enemy, but the other raid bosses are Evil Outsiders or Giants, which along with Undead are the normal slate of ranger favs.

And yes, the Warforged Titan has 80% of his hitpoints destroyed by puzzle-solving, and he's rather non-threatening in combat anyhow. The most impressive thing rangers do in that raid, in fact, is to kill 8 stationary pillars in 30 seconds thanks to Manyshot.

MysticTheurge
02-27-2008, 01:27 PM
Rangers do not typically have Construct as a favored enemy, but the other raid bosses are Evil Outsiders or Giants, which along with Undead are the normal slate of ranger favs.

Oh, yeah, I guess it's only recently that they've gotten the 4th.

maddmatt70
02-27-2008, 02:14 PM
Rangers do not typically have Construct as a favored enemy, but the other raid bosses are Evil Outsiders or Giants, which along with Undead are the normal slate of ranger favs.

And yes, the Warforged Titan has 80% of his hitpoints destroyed by puzzle-solving, and he's rather non-threatening in combat anyhow. The most impressive thing rangers do in that raid, in fact, is to kill 8 stationary pillars in 30 seconds thanks to Manyshot.

I wouldn't have giant or undead for that matter as a favored enemy anymore when I reach cap. Since your probably going to spend 90+% of your time in the shroud, you might as well have evil outsider, elemental, construct (especially with the new changes to the portal keepers in the shroud), and a 4th option of your choosing.. Use dragonshards to swap out your favored enemy..

Serpent
02-27-2008, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't have giant or undead for that matter as a favored enemy anymore when I reach cap. Since your probably going to spend 90+% of your time in the shroud, you might as well have evil outsider, elemental, construct (especially with the new changes to the portal keepers in the shroud), and a 4th option of your choosing.. Use dragonshards to swap out your favored enemy..

Though I agree with you to an extent thats is a lot of shards.

Evil outsider should have been a favored enemy that most rangers had by this time. I fail to see why we would favor ourselves with an inanimate object that has 12 people beating it down at once. Elemental is a good choice and I took it with level cap. As for the portal keepers, they are tieflings and count as humans. They die quick and I see really no reason to favor yourself with them.

Wit the shroud becoming less and less of a challenge, I see no reasons to not keep giant and undead which probably the most popular creatures in the game. Who knows what new content will bring.

maybe taking gnoll would be a good idea. thats for the player to decide but like I said it is a lot of shards and even with the fragments we aren't all swimming in them. Heck i need to save all my shards to prepare to fix my fighter when and if they introduce a prc to make them more viable :)

Serpent
02-27-2008, 02:26 PM
how am i self nerfing if my build is good enough to hit anything be it normal or elite w/o wasting ap's on that line of enhancments... ANYWAYS.. if you cant hit something without that line of enhancment s you oughta consider a re-roll cuz your toon sucks...

I asked before, what do you spend all those 64 ap on?

And I don't think anyone said anything about not hitting, I believe the popular term was "free extra damage". If you insist on calling someone that can do more damage and by default contribute more, gimped, then so be it.

dns801
02-27-2008, 03:53 PM
It's not enough to just Hit things... you also need to have Damage to make those hits help.

Rangers contribute decently to the damage in a raid like Zawabi's Revenge, Reaver's Fate, or Thirteenth Eclipse because they have Favored Damage bonus on the boss. Take it away, and you've got nothing.


WRONG my ranged ranger for instance... was one of the top 3 fastest soloing rangers at dq without your holy enhancements...havnt played her since 8 months though since ive been gone...so i dont know how she fares in reaver and eclipse. and +4 dmg makes only a miniscoule difference.. almost not even worth mentioning.. unless of course your toons are euipped with newb items that dont do any dmg...

dns801
02-27-2008, 03:55 PM
I asked before, what do you spend all those 64 ap on?

And I don't think anyone said anything about not hitting, I believe the popular term was "free extra damage". If you insist on calling someone that can do more damage and by default contribute more, gimped, then so be it.


by that statement i take it you are one of those guys that looks at kill count for how much some1 contributed...

bobbryan2
02-27-2008, 04:24 PM
by that statement i take it you are one of those guys that looks at kill count for how much some1 contributed...

For how much they contributed? no... for a fairly accurate assessment of how much DPS output a build has assuming similar playing styles? sure

gpk
02-27-2008, 05:07 PM
by that statement i take it you are one of those guys that looks at kill count for how much some1 contributed...

You must have been gone too long, cause clearly you've forgotten how to play, anyone can see the value of +4 more dmg+ab (well almost anyone), it has nothing to do with counting kills.

As for Lailat, clearly even you can see how more damage would drop her faster? no?
Unless of course all that hurt lailat on your "fast solo runs" was the holy and/or bane portion...

Serpent
02-27-2008, 05:39 PM
by that statement i take it you are one of those guys that looks at kill count for how much some1 contributed...

nah kill counts bore me. Who hit last makes little difference.

Still waiting to here what you spent your 64 ap on.

dns801
02-27-2008, 08:26 PM
nah kill counts bore me. Who hit last makes little difference.

Still waiting to here what you spent your 64 ap on.
ive alrdy mentioned what i spent my points on.. why dont you go back through the 7 pages and read a little bit...

clearlt +4 to hit +4 dmg makes no difference at all...try using a +1 weapon and switching to a +5 weapon... if your toon is built right there is not much of a difference. has nothing to do with how long i was gone for... that is something that hasnt changed and wont change. and yes holy burst of bane killed her easily especially with the arrows i use...

gpk
02-27-2008, 09:37 PM
ive alrdy mentioned what i spent my points on.. why dont you go back through the 7 pages and read a little bit...

clearlt +4 to hit +4 dmg makes no difference at all...try using a +1 weapon and switching to a +5 weapon... if your toon is built right there is not much of a difference. has nothing to do with how long i was gone for... that is something that hasnt changed and wont change. and yes holy burst of bane killed her easily especially with the arrows i use...

LOL Tell you what, start a trade in program: you can get many +1s for the +5 you get.

Oh and explain to us, what do you do when you run out of "special" arrows? Do you think to yourself "nuts I wish I did more damage"?

Maybe when you understand the d20 roll, your AB vs monster AC etc etc you'd see a +1 weapon and a +5 weapon are NOT the same.

dns801
02-27-2008, 10:07 PM
LOL Tell you what, start a trade in program: you can get many +1s for the +5 you get.

Oh and explain to us, what do you do when you run out of "special" arrows? Do you think to yourself "nuts I wish I did more damage"?

Maybe when you understand the d20 roll, your AB vs monster AC etc etc you'd see a +1 weapon and a +5 weapon are NOT the same.


type of arrows you use doesnt make too much of a difference just bypasses dr... most the dmg..if you had any clue... comes from holy burst of bane...dur. not much "explaining" needed there. apperently my understanding of the d20 system in this GAME is better than yours..

Serpent
02-27-2008, 10:28 PM
ive alrdy mentioned what i spent my points on.. why dont you go back through the 7 pages and read a little bit...

Why don't you read back. You didn't say what you spend them on you simply said that you don't take them. Next time try to remember what you said.


clearlt +4 to hit +4 dmg makes no difference at all...try using a +1 weapon and switching to a +5 weapon... if your toon is built right there is not much of a difference. has nothing to do with how long i was gone for... that is something that hasnt changed and wont change. and yes holy burst of bane killed her easily especially with the arrows i use...

O we are back to ranged combat. that reminds me of another question I asked that you never answered. What feats does a ranger need that they don't get to be a viable ranged fighter?


type of arrows you use doesnt make too much of a difference just bypasses dr... most the dmg..if you had any clue... comes from holy burst of bane...dur. not much "explaining" needed there. apperently my understanding of the d20 system in this GAME is better than yours..

Also this is so incorrect.
lets assume a +1holy burst of greater evil outsider bane. We are fighting the Demon Queen
Non-dr/non-crit damage = 2d6(holy) + 3d6(bane) = 18 points average.
Damage from hit itself w/o silver arrows = 1d8(longbow) + 8(str) + 4(favored enemy) + 5(weapon bonus) = 22(average) - 20(dr) = 2 damage
If we add cold iron arrows suddenly we are dealing more damage than on non dr damage

Now if we crit lets all laugh together
Burst crit = 2d6(holy) + 3d6(burst) + 3d6(bane) = 28 (average)
base damage = (22 x 3) - 20(dr) = 44
with arrows = 66

So if you don't bring the right kind of arrows you are self gimping and if you do, you are not relying on Burst damage to kill Lailat

This does not take into account bard songs or whatever else you can add.

Seriously its ok to be wrong about something, I have been wrong many times. Also as far as Tempest you underestimate the 10&#37; alclarity over 100 attacks that an extra 10 and if you have never tried spring attack its very useful. Give it a shot before you slam it as being a waste.

So if you could answer my questions.

dns801
02-27-2008, 10:31 PM
Why don't you read back. You didn't say what you spend them on you simply said that you don't take them. Next time try to remember what you said.



O we are back to ranged combat. that reminds me of another question I asked that you never answered. What feats does a ranger need that they don't get to be a viable ranged fighter?

and yes i have stated it so stop being lazy and read b4 you go typing...
shot on the run for one, precise shot dodge mobilty, dont remeber others right now would have to look

Aesop
02-27-2008, 10:43 PM
Rangers get Precise Shot at level 11 along with Improved Precise Shot and Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Shot on the Run is a long Feat Chain that many Archers don't ven bother with anymore because the benefit is the reduction of a penalty... now if you shot slower while moving wihthout it that might be incentive.

I give Dodge and Mobility limited to no real use for a ranged fighter as you shouldn't be close enough to be getting swung at.

Now Improved Crit Ranged that is a Feat they should have... Also Point Blank Shot because it is a prerequisite for Deepwoods Sniper


and one more thing... Did you say dur? What are you like 12? No one says dur... sorry had to pick on ya for that one



Aesop

Serpent
02-27-2008, 10:52 PM
and yes i have stated it so stop being lazy and read b4 you go typing...

I did read back you didn't say what you get with your ap


shot on the run for one

waste of a feat. if a -4 hurts you then you are basically saying you are wrong about everything you said about favored enemy and +1 vs +5 weapons. Strangely +4 is the difference between +1 and +5


precise shot

already get it as a ranger feat so thats wrong


dodge mobilty

both are required for tempest, heh you are almost there to that prc you so despise.

improved crit ranged fits in well with a tempest ranger, infact my tempest ranger has it along with improved crit pierce.

Keep digging that hole, you are just making no sense. Also You did not address my full previous post. please do so at your leisure.

Aesop
02-27-2008, 11:01 PM
and yes i have stated it so stop being lazy and read b4 you go typing...
shot on the run for one, precise shot dodge mobilty, dont remeber others right now would have to look

Well I read 7 pages of your quotes and no where in the entirety did you say which enhancements you have. You spent plenty of time saying what you thought was useless or didn't have but never once did you say "Oh yeah I have these enhancements... and that seems to work for me just fine"

You told everyone else that there characters were gimps because they used certain enhancements and said that things were fact without any proof or even vague unsubstantiated rumor. You failed to understand that Rangers gain 4 of the 5 (maybe 6 if you count PBS) major Ranged Feats without having to spend a single Feat on them and you deny that Rangers get the equivilent of 8 Feats + Spellcasting + Evasion+ Bowstrength+ Favored Enemy (with an extra bonus of them stacking better than they do in PnP)+ Character level Feats+ More SKill POints (I know limited in use really)+ higher reflex saves (goes well with evasion after all)

SO I believe the question asked was... What do your Rangers spend their Enhancements on? I mean I can try to guess a few.

Dexterity... pretty sure .. I mean who doesn't want the bonus there right
I'd guess you didn't bother with skills
Well you said you didn't have a Tempest Ranger so that one is out too
ummm... did you take the boosts... maybe Sprint... or SKill if you have UMD
Lores... Desert and Swamp maybe?

other than that I'd have to assume you spent them on whatever Race you went's Enhancement pool

Aesop

nbhs275
02-28-2008, 12:11 AM
the reason its powerful and given to rangers and not fighters is because the average ranger is going to have to give something up to be able to fit in the feats, where the fighter is basically rolling in feats. For a fighter to spend 5 of his feats isnt saying much, when a human fighter has 15 feats. Where 3 feats from a ranger that only gets 6, its a major investment.

Fighters get plenty of great enhancments, not the rangers fault that too many builds are so short sighted to notice it. If fighters get tempest then rangers get armor mastery, toughness, strategy and haste boost. Alot of the rangers enhancment are pretty weak(like anything related to wild empathy).

Stales
02-28-2008, 12:44 AM
type of arrows you use doesnt make too much of a difference just bypasses dr... most the dmg..if you had any clue... comes from holy burst of bane...dur. not much "explaining" needed there. apperently my understanding of the d20 system in this GAME is better than yours..


"holy burst of bane"

Why use Bane weapons? its only a + to dmg/atk , thats like those useless ap's your talking about....



Yes rangers suck..getting tells in guild chat from rangers...New record for me, invaders solo'd in 11 min...
as a fighter, maybe 45min, 3 deaths and 100 heal pots, could probably still not finish it, all the rangers in my guld and that i normally see, are pretty damn good..

Aesop
02-28-2008, 05:06 AM
THe arguement (which isn't even an arguement really) that if Fighter's get Tempest then Rangers whould get misc Fighter Enhancemnt x is really kind of silly. Tempest is based on a Prestige Class. That places it in a different realm than Fighter Armor Mastery or whatever. I'd argue the same the other way if Fighters where given Kensei or Exotic Weapon Master. These are PrCs that are not tied to specific Class Features but rather to Feats and Skill Prerequisites and should be open to anyone who can get those Feat/Skills.

No one is asking to get the Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus or Enhancments without taking ranger levels they are asking for access to something that was arbitrarily given to a single class that in the source material was available to any class.


Now if they wanted to make an Enhancment for rangers to focus on their Combat Mastery Class Feature that would be fine. One line that focuses on TWF and the other on Ranged, that would at least be a lil closer to source. That isn't what this is though. This is an enhancment based on a PrC which anyone meeting the prerequisite Feats can get.


Aesop

Torosar
02-28-2008, 06:27 AM
a twf ranger does not use his bow skills because they are worthless try it out sometime and you'll see. same goes other way around. i do have a bow ranger... but do i dual wield on her? no because its pointless the feats that i had to take mke me better at ranging than at fighting.

First of all, how does a bow become worthless ever for a ranger? Manyshot is an insane weapon in every rangers arsenal. It doesn't make too much difference at all whether a ranger has improved crit pierce and crits on 19 and 20, instead of just 20. A wounding bow with manyshot can drop a dozen mobs in the 20 seconds if you play smart, that's only using the feats you gain automatically anyway i.e. precise and improved precise shot. Even for bosses.. a transmuting (if necesssary) or a holy burst pg, or a greater bane are very good dps for dex rangers especially, less so for strength rangers but still very reliable.

Secondly, what ranged feats did you take? The only feats that make any real difference would be improved criticals or power attack... and even if you have them you can still range or twf in complete ease. Point blank shot and shot on the run (you listed shot on the run so ill assume so) are these ranged feats you keep going on about? That +1 when your 20 feet from the mob helps you that much? Or the not taking -4 when running? Most rangers dont take them.. i know i dont and i never miss with anything except a 1, even when i'm kiting mobs and im sure most rangers would be in the same situation. The reasoning for that is cause rangers are full BAB and are usually very high dex (+32).. which as you say later.. makes it very easy to hit on normal or elite.


you can only set up properly to use 1 or the other making the one you dont use pretty worthless...its a fact try it
Incorrect. A ranger has immense versatility and can easily switch between twf, sword and board, or ranged attacking. Like i said, if you are trouble with missing using a bow on a "twf" ranger then maybe you need to have a good look at what your doing. If you are two weapon fighting.. you are going to still have a very respectable dex which means your bow using is still very effective. A "bow" specced ranger (which should only have imp crit ranged really) can totally dominate mobs, 28pt build rangers out there can get 22 strength and 32 dex, which is more than enough to very effectively do either the alternatives.


armor class doesnt reall y matter at all in most cases so only good thing that leaves are saves...if you put a well built rgr vs a well built barb or ftr w/o using stat dmgers the ranger will never win

First of all, how doesn't armour class matter. With mobs having an to hit bonus starting from about +35.. rangers are well able to get way into the 50's with AC, making them at times only able to be hit on high crits. I fail to see how only getting hit on a couple of swings per every 20 from a mob "does not matter".

If you think a well built ranger can't match a fighter or barb with damage maybe you should look for a certain 15 ranger/1 fighter on our server using deathnip and greenblade and let him hit you and figure out why it says you were hit for 250 damage.. which im sure is a number so easily obtained by fighters right?


if a +4 to hit bonus and dmg helps so so significantly then you got a gimpy build

Quite the contrary really. The +4 makes the biggest difference when you have a good build because you have the gear and abilties to fully utilise it. Does the +4 still not matter? Have you ever heard of the class called "bard"?


how am i self nerfing if my build is good enough to hit anything be it normal or elite w/o wasting ap's on that line of enhancments

As i mentioned aboive, hitting a mob is easy for a full BAB class, especially one with a high primary stat that they are using to attack. As Angelus mentioned.. hitting is not the issue, it's damage. Having more damage means the mob dies faster, means you help yourself and the party more. I fail to see how this could not be a great thing.


WRONG my ranged ranger for instance... was one of the top 3 fastest soloing rangers at dq without your holy enhancements

I believe i'm in that list too. Seeing as listing achievements makes it seem as though you know more..did you know i was also the 2nd person on all servers to solo it by some 12 hours or so (damn timers) and probably did it at least a full MONTH or 2 before you did? So don't think that line impresses anybody, especially not me.


your pulling stuff out of your ... to TRY to make something sound viable but its not

ive alrdy mentioned what i spent my points on.. why dont you go back through the 7 pages and read a little bit...

Okay, so you say he is pulling stuff out of no where to make his points valid.. yet you claim you listed your enhancements which you never did to make your own point seem valid. Nice one, what a great quote the first one turned out to be.


type of arrows you use doesnt make too much of a difference just bypasses dr... most the dmg..if you had any clue... comes from holy burst of bane...dur

Sure it is, if you have like 10 strength and do 0 damage anyway. Refer to Serpents post if you still truly believe that. If you truly think "most" of the damage comes from that then you really need to take some better arrows in there that beat the DR. Sure it is some of the damage, and healthy damage.. but by no stretch of the imagination is it most of it.


and yes i have stated it so stop being lazy and read b4 you go typing...
shot on the run for one, precise shot dodge mobilty, dont remeber others right now would have to look

This post shows what a horrible circle of contradiction you are running yourself around in. You tell him to stop being lazy and read before he types.. yet you fail to do so on your own character sheet. You fail to recognise feats you were granted automatically and after bagging the ability of a ranger to do both of twf and use a bow, you have all the feats for both anyway (minus spring attack). Bravo sir.

Angelus_dead
02-28-2008, 06:38 AM
First of all, how does a bow become worthless ever for a ranger? Manyshot is an insane weapon in every rangers arsenal. It doesn't make too much difference at all whether a ranger has improved crit pierce and crits on 19 and 20, instead of just 20. A wounding bow with manyshot can drop a dozen mobs in the 20 seconds if you play smart, that's only using the feats you gain automatically anyway i.e. precise and improved precise shot. Even for bosses.. a transmuting (if necesssary) or a holy burst pg, or a greater bane are very good dps for dex rangers especially, less so for strength rangers but still very reliable.
Note that the changes from Module 6 helped strength rangers use manyshot more effectively. Everyone now gets +5,+10 attack bonuses when standing still with a bow. This greatly helps a low-dex ranger hit monsters with a decent AC... causing his higher strength to provide big damage. This works well against Arraetrikos for example (less so against a monster who chases you, like Queen Laliat)

Angelus_dead
02-28-2008, 06:44 AM
For a fighter to spend 5 of his feats isnt saying much, when a human fighter has 15 feats. Where 3 feats from a ranger that only gets 6, its a major investment.
Let's follow that reasoning:

A. Ranger16: Few feats, so qualifying for Tempest is a big investment.
B. Ranger8/Fighter8: More feats, so qualifying for Tempest is less costly.
C. Fighter16: Most feats, so qualifying for Tempest is even cheaper.

Why should A and B be allowed, but not C, which would be a logical consequence. This suggestion is about adding one more option for fighters. The strength of fighters is supposed to be lots of feats. But unfortunately in DDO you can run out of good feats, and then the Fighter class's advantage ceases to be any good. The Tempest enhancement makes the Mobility and Spring Attack feats actually worth something.

It would make sense to let fighters take it.

Also note that even if they were allowed to, few fighters actually would.

Torosar
02-28-2008, 06:56 AM
Note that the changes from Module 6 helped strength rangers use manyshot more effectively. Everyone now gets +5,+10 attack bonuses when standing still with a bow. This greatly helps a low-dex ranger hit monsters with a decent AC... causing his higher strength to provide big damage. This works well against Arraetrikos for example (less so against a monster who chases you, like Queen Laliat)

I did mean to mention the new bonuses making it even easier for rangers to land ranged hits, oh well. Thanks for reminding me!

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 07:21 AM
the reason its powerful and given to rangers and not fighters is because the average ranger is going to have to give something up to be able to fit in the feats, where the fighter is basically rolling in feats. For a fighter to spend 5 of his feats isnt saying much, when a human fighter has 15 feats. Where 3 feats from a ranger that only gets 6, its a major investment.

This is just wrong. A fighter would have to spend more of his resources to get tempest than a comparable ranger.

Ranger 6: TWF, ITWF for free, 1st, 3rd, 6th level feats must be spend on Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack. Still gets three other free feats, two favored enemies and spells (like barkskin and ram's might).

Fighter 6: Spends 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th fighter bonus feats and one general feat on TWF, ITWF, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack. Has two general feats left.

So after qualifying for Tempest, the fighter has 2 feats and the ranger has 3 feats, 2 favored enemies and spells. Even if you assume that a Tempest style ranger is never going to use his bow feats, he's still got Diehard, Two favored enemies and spells. It seems to me that the ranger comes out ahead there.

Yaga_Nub
02-28-2008, 08:52 AM
This is just wrong. A fighter would have to spend more of his resources to get tempest than a comparable ranger.

Ranger 6: TWF, ITWF for free, 1st, 3rd, 6th level feats must be spend on Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack. Still gets three other free feats, two favored enemies and spells (like barkskin and ram's might).

Fighter 6: Spends 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th fighter bonus feats and one general feat on TWF, ITWF, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack. Has two general feats left.

So after qualifying for Tempest, the fighter has 2 feats and the ranger has 3 feats, 2 favored enemies and spells. Even if you assume that a Tempest style ranger is never going to use his bow feats, he's still got Diehard, Two favored enemies and spells. It seems to me that the ranger comes out ahead there.

D*mnit MT, don't start with the free feats. That's not a choice of the devs that's straight from PnP (talking about just the TWF feats). Yes rangers get spells as well. That's from PnP as well. Diehard, sort of from PnP. FE, from PnP.

My point is you can't really compare the two. They aren't apples to apples. If you want to start making comparisons you would have to start with something as simple as HD. Ranger get d8, Fighters d10. For that possible 40 HP difference at level 20, Rangers get some benefits. After getting my arse handed to me last night with 70 to 100 hp attacks from the pit fiend, I would LOVE to have anthoer 40 HP. It would have been the difference of being able to disengage and have a cleric heal me and death. Fighters get to choose the extra feats they want, ranger do not. That's a big difference. Fighters have enhancements that rangers can't take such as armor mastery and fighter toughness. Shouldn't the ranger get those as well?

Just live with it people. Quit being jealous and greedy. The grass isn't always green on the other side. This enhancement hasn't been in for most of the game and we all did just fine. If you are going to complain, complain about the lack of fighter only Prestige enhancements or the lack of high-level content.

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 08:59 AM
D*mnit MT, don't start with the free feats. That's not a choice of the devs that's straight from PnP (talking about just the TWF feats). Yes rangers get spells as well. That's from PnP as well. Diehard, sort of from PnP. FE, from PnP.

Yes, but in D&D, a fighter can also choose to be a tempest if he wants.

All I was arguing with was the supposition that a ranger has to give up more to become a tempest than a fighter does.

bobbryan2
02-28-2008, 09:37 AM
D*mnit MT, don't start with the free feats. That's not a choice of the devs that's straight from PnP (talking about just the TWF feats). Yes rangers get spells as well. That's from PnP as well. Diehard, sort of from PnP. FE, from PnP.

My point is you can't really compare the two. They aren't apples to apples. If you want to start making comparisons you would have to start with something as simple as HD. Ranger get d8, Fighters d10. For that possible 40 HP difference at level 20, Rangers get some benefits. After getting my arse handed to me last night with 70 to 100 hp attacks from the pit fiend, I would LOVE to have anthoer 40 HP. It would have been the difference of being able to disengage and have a cleric heal me and death. Fighters get to choose the extra feats they want, ranger do not. That's a big difference. Fighters have enhancements that rangers can't take such as armor mastery and fighter toughness. Shouldn't the ranger get those as well?

Just live with it people. Quit being jealous and greedy. The grass isn't always green on the other side. This enhancement hasn't been in for most of the game and we all did just fine. If you are going to complain, complain about the lack of fighter only Prestige enhancements or the lack of high-level content.


You say pnp a LOT... and you fail to address why everything should be like pnp EXCEPT for fighters getting Tempest.

Mad_Bombardier
02-28-2008, 09:49 AM
This is just wrong. A fighter would have to spend more of his resources to get tempest than a comparable ranger.You forgot to mention that the Fighter must also build for 17 DEX, while the Ranger can spend his build points elsewhere.

nbhs275
02-28-2008, 12:05 PM
Let's follow that reasoning:

A. Ranger16: Few feats, so qualifying for Tempest is a big investment.
B. Ranger8/Fighter8: More feats, so qualifying for Tempest is less costly.
C. Fighter16: Most feats, so qualifying for Tempest is even cheaper.

Why should A and B be allowed, but not C, which would be a logical consequence. This suggestion is about adding one more option for fighters. The strength of fighters is supposed to be lots of feats. But unfortunately in DDO you can run out of good feats, and then the Fighter class's advantage ceases to be any good. The Tempest enhancement makes the Mobility and Spring Attack feats actually worth something.

It would make sense to let fighters take it.

Also note that even if they were allowed to, few fighters actually would.

because B loses out on all the high end abilities and enhancments of both classes. Sure the 8/8 gainst tempest and a good amount of feats, but loses a 3rd FE, cannot maximize the bonuses against them, and loses out on the high end fighter feats and enhancments that are much stronger then what the pure ranger gets. Fighter armor mastery III is a great thing, along with the haste boost, str III, toughness III & IV, Strat III, greater weapon specialization, and greater weapon focus.

The thing is, that fighters in PnP have the same problem. They run out of worthwhile feats to take, and they naturally do not get any other class abilities. Thats why, while they are about the best all around characters in low level groups, 1-6, they lose ground at higher levels. Thats why 95% of all pnp fighters with splat books look to MC out ASAP. 4-6 levels of fighter and right into a prestige class. If you want the prestige class, do like any fighter in pnp would and switch out of fighter.


As far as the arguement of rangers getting about the same amount of feats as fighter, they also dont get to pick any of them. They are pidgeon holed into TWF and ranged. The ranger can only make use of half his feats at any given time, where a smart fighter can have all his feats at work all the time. Unless the fighters build is **** and he has both blunt and slash spec...

Angelus_dead
02-28-2008, 12:08 PM
4-6 levels of fighter and right into a prestige class. If you want the prestige class, do like any fighter in pnp would and switch out of fighter.
For crying out loud. DDO doesn't have prestige classes.

If a ranger can take some benefits from the Tempest class while continuing his progression of ranger spells, combat style, and favored enemy, then the fighter should be able to take the Tempest enhancement too, and still be a fighter.

nbhs275
02-28-2008, 12:26 PM
For crying out loud. DDO doesn't have prestige classes.

If a ranger can take some benefits from the Tempest class while continuing his progression of ranger spells, combat style, and favored enemy, then the fighter should be able to take the Tempest enhancement too, and still be a fighter.

get over it. By that same arguement, my ranger should be able to take warchanter, because there is no such thing as prestige classes. Fighters dont need tempest, because its not a major focus of all fighters. Where all rangers are going to be either focused on TWF or ranged. Thats why they get the prestige enhancments they do. Where as fighters out there are either

AC builds
TWF builds
THF builds
Intimitank builds
Bow builds
Repeater builds
Thrower builds
tactical builds
or any of the dozens of other concepts. Fighter prestige enhancments need to somehow cover all these areas, not just YOUR twf build. If turbine gives the same exact prestige enhancment to another class, it just makes the game alot more of the same. Much rather see fighters get their own set of 3, wether it be one that increases their crit range with their favored weapon chain or makes their tactics work to a lesser extent on all hits or even their boost last longer(fighter haste boost for 1 min x5per rest would be godlike).

Yaga_Nub
02-28-2008, 12:32 PM
This is just wrong. A fighter would have to spend more of his resources to get tempest than a comparable ranger.

Ranger 6: TWF, ITWF for free, 1st, 3rd, 6th level feats must be spend on Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack. Still gets three other free feats, two favored enemies and spells (like barkskin and ram's might).

Fighter 6: Spends 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th fighter bonus feats and one general feat on TWF, ITWF, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack. Has two general feats left.

So after qualifying for Tempest, the fighter has 2 feats and the ranger has 3 feats, 2 favored enemies and spells. Even if you assume that a Tempest style ranger is never going to use his bow feats, he's still got Diehard, Two favored enemies and spells. It seems to me that the ranger comes out ahead there.


D*mnit MT, don't start with the free feats. That's not a choice of the devs that's straight from PnP (talking about just the TWF feats). Yes rangers get spells as well. That's from PnP as well. Diehard, sort of from PnP. FE, from PnP.

My point is you can't really compare the two. They aren't apples to apples. If you want to start making comparisons you would have to start with something as simple as HD. Ranger get d8, Fighters d10. For that possible 40 HP difference at level 20, Rangers get some benefits. After getting my arse handed to me last night with 70 to 100 hp attacks from the pit fiend, I would LOVE to have anthoer 40 HP. It would have been the difference of being able to disengage and have a cleric heal me and death. Fighters get to choose the extra feats they want, ranger do not. That's a big difference. Fighters have enhancements that rangers can't take such as armor mastery and fighter toughness. Shouldn't the ranger get those as well?

Just live with it people. Quit being jealous and greedy. The grass isn't always green on the other side. This enhancement hasn't been in for most of the game and we all did just fine. If you are going to complain, complain about the lack of fighter only Prestige enhancements or the lack of high-level content.


Yes, but in D&D, a fighter can also choose to be a tempest if he wants.

All I was arguing with was the supposition that a ranger has to give up more to become a tempest than a fighter does.

I realize that but I think the reasons that you are using for your argument aren't valid. A ranger MIGHT actually be giving up a lot to get the tempest enhancement. Using 50&#37; of your chosen feats to get an enhancement is quite an expense. Fighters would only give up 20% of their chosen feats leaving them 12 other choices for them to take. I do agree that a fighter also has to plan for a 17 DEX (possibly 19) which is a sacrifice but choices have to be made. That's what I think character creation in DnD and DDO is all about - choices. And there are consequences for your choices.


You say pnp a LOT... and you fail to address why everything should be like pnp EXCEPT for fighters getting Tempest.

I was referring to DnD (there you like that better) in regards to the topic of feats since MT was using that in his argument. The devs didn't design the classes they just did the best they could to translate them to a real-time game. Should rangers get both weapon fighting skill sets? Who knows. I know that until lately all you ever saw was LFMs with everything but rangers listed. So maybe the devs were trying to give people a reason to play them and for groups to invite them.

Now to shift gears a bit. Go back a few months and a lot of people that didn't even play rangers started saying that rangers needed some love. Most rangers I know weren't saying anything because we already knew our strengths. Who was soloing the DQ on the most consistant basis, a ranger was. That right there showed how powerful a well-built, well-play ranger could be. But the devs didn't see a lot of rangers or something like that and decided it was ranger love time. Great for us. Fixing ranged attacks was great but that actually helped everyone not just the rangers. This enhancement was implemented like everything else - at the devs discretion. If you don't like it you can do three things - 1) go roll up a ranger, 2) get 6 levels of ranger in your build, or 3)whine because someone has a toy that you can't have. The issue with #3 is this - YOU CAN HAVE IT...... just do number 1 or number 2.

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 01:00 PM
That's what I think character creation in DnD and DDO is all about - choices. And there are consequences for your choices.

But that would argue that the "PrE" ought to be available to anyone who can meet the prerequisites regardless of how much of a consequence they have to pay, not be artificially limited by class.

dns801
02-28-2008, 01:36 PM
First of all, how does a bow become worthless ever for a ranger? Manyshot is an insane weapon in every rangers arsenal. It doesn't make too much difference at all whether a ranger has improved crit pierce and crits on 19 and 20, instead of just 20. A wounding bow with manyshot can drop a dozen mobs in the 20 seconds if you play smart, that's only using the feats you gain automatically anyway i.e. precise and improved precise shot. Even for bosses.. a transmuting (if necesssary) or a holy burst pg, or a greater bane are very good dps for dex rangers especially, less so for strength rangers but still very reliable.

well for one a doubled crit range makes a gigantic difference. two, a bow becomes useless simply at the point where you make a twf ranger...

Secondly, what ranged feats did you take? The only feats that make any real difference would be improved criticals or power attack... and even if you have them you can still range or twf in complete ease. Point blank shot and shot on the run (you listed shot on the run so ill assume so) are these ranged feats you keep going on about? That +1 when your 20 feet from the mob helps you that much? Or the not taking -4 when running? Most rangers dont take them.. i know i dont and i never miss with anything except a 1, even when i'm kiting mobs and im sure most rangers would be in the same situation. The reasoning for that is cause rangers are full BAB and are usually very high dex (+32).. which as you say later.. makes it very easy to hit on normal or elite.

yes i take it for shot on the run and most ranged rangers did take it during the time that the dq was being killed which is basically the times right b4 i left..


Incorrect. A ranger has immense versatility and can easily switch between twf, sword and board, or ranged attacking. Like i said, if you are trouble with missing using a bow on a "twf" ranger then maybe you need to have a good look at what your doing. If you are two weapon fighting.. you are going to still have a very respectable dex which means your bow using is still very effective. A "bow" specced ranger (which should only have imp crit ranged really) can totally dominate mobs, 28pt build rangers out there can get 22 strength and 32 dex, which is more than enough to very effectively do either the alternatives.

yeah if you go weapon finese... otherwise no.



First of all, how doesn't armour class matter. With mobs having an to hit bonus starting from about +35.. rangers are well able to get way into the 50's with AC, making them at times only able to be hit on high crits. I fail to see how only getting hit on a couple of swings per every 20 from a mob "does not matter".

my tank has a 58 unbuffed ac (i know that is not too much anymore now days i am behind on finding stuff) and gets hit nearly everytime and that is also with perma blur on...and that is how i come up with ac "does not really matter"

If you think a well built ranger can't match a fighter or barb with damage maybe you should look for a certain 15 ranger/1 fighter on our server using deathnip and greenblade and let him hit you and figure out why it says you were hit for 250 damage.. which im sure is a number so easily obtained by fighters right?

highly doubt that bring him and let him hit me i will bet you that it wont b close to that...



Quite the contrary really. The +4 makes the biggest difference when you have a good build because you have the gear and abilties to fully utilise it. Does the +4 still not matter? Have you ever heard of the class called "bard"?

no never heard of bard....



As i mentioned aboive, hitting a mob is easy for a full BAB class, especially one with a high primary stat that they are using to attack. As Angelus mentioned.. hitting is not the issue, it's damage. Having more damage means the mob dies faster, means you help yourself and the party more. I fail to see how this could not be a great thing.

if a mob dies .5 seconds faster by having a worthless line of enhancments then it doesnt worry me at all. i use my enhancements elsewehere and kill a monster .5 slower anyday. +4 dmg on every hit makes no difference at all... maybe if you are still running through stk or something.



I believe i'm in that list too. Seeing as listing achievements makes it seem as though you know more..did you know i was also the 2nd person on all servers to solo it by some 12 hours or so (damn timers) and probably did it at least a full MONTH or 2 before you did? So don't think that line impresses anybody, especially not me.

dont care if or if not it impressed anybody it made my point...that the stupid enhancements are useless...




Okay, so you say he is pulling stuff out of no where to make his points valid.. yet you claim you listed your enhancements which you never did to make your own point seem valid. Nice one, what a great quote the first one turned out to be.

once again i did list my enhancments READ. not all of them but there are examples of what i take.



Sure it is, if you have like 10 strength and do 0 damage anyway. Refer to Serpents post if you still truly believe that. If you truly think "most" of the damage comes from that then you really need to take some better arrows in there that beat the DR. Sure it is some of the damage, and healthy damage.. but by no stretch of the imagination is it most of it.

dont know how you figure that... a 4min dq run for instance 7 months ago seemed to be just fine as far as dmg from holy burst of bane is concerned



This post shows what a horrible circle of contradiction you are running yourself around in. You tell him to stop being lazy and read before he types.. yet you fail to do so on your own character sheet. You fail to recognise feats you were granted automatically and after bagging the ability of a ranger to do both of twf and use a bow, you have all the feats for both anyway (minus spring attack). Bravo sir.

i have ran in no contradictory circle.. in fact in your replies you have though.. by saying so you may want to look up what contradictory means....and unless you actually go finese on a ranged ranger.. stupid move wasted feat...no you cant be a good close quarters ftr...a ftr is a better ftr period people just choose to not make them better... and tempest only gives a ranger the ability to fight better...


Yes, but in D&D, a fighter can also choose to be a tempest if he wants.

All I was arguing with was the supposition that a ranger has to give up more to become a tempest than a fighter does.

just once again DDO not PnP.

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 01:43 PM
just once again DDO not PnP.

Yes. In DDO (not D&D) a fighter has to give up more than a ranger does to qualify for Tempest.

Yaga_Nub
02-28-2008, 01:48 PM
But that would argue that the "PrE" ought to be available to anyone who can meet the prerequisites regardless of how much of a consequence they have to pay, not be artificially limited by class.

Absolutely not MT. There are rules you have to play within and you have to make your choices based on those rules not your own rules. DDO has decided that Tempest is ranger only. YOU (the general population you) don't get to decide that is right or wrong. You play by the rules. The only way you can change the rules is to change the game (become CEO of Turbine or move on from DDO) or play by the "rules" of the game. You can b*tch about the rules but you don't get to determine what's right and wrong or even logical and illogical. When you're god, or in this case, the lead designer, you can make whether rule you want, until then YOU (again the general population you) don't get to decide what should or shouldn't be.

Yaga_Nub
02-28-2008, 01:49 PM
Yes. In DDO (not D&D) a fighter has to give up more than a ranger does to qualify for Tempest.

Lies!

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 01:55 PM
Absolutely not MT. There are rules you have to play within and you have to make your choices based on those rules not your own rules. DDO has decided that Tempest is ranger only. YOU (the general population you) don't get to decide that is right or wrong. You play by the rules.

This is ironic, because there already were rules for who can become a Tempest and who can't.

And we're not the ones who aren't playing by the rules. ;)

Xaxx
02-28-2008, 02:23 PM
please remember they're also brining out this prestige stuff one class at a time, clerics, rogues, bards, and now rangers have had theirs, it sounds like mod 7 will deliver ones specific for paladin (even though the cleric ones currently carry over to paladin at higher levels) eventually fighter will get theirs and then will you give up tempest for them or will you allow rangers to have access to the fighter one of their choice???

the prestige based ap lines are for the classes their defined for... tempest stays ranger.. period. If you cant deal with that add 6 levs of ranger to your fighter build, if you can, then wait for the time they add the fighter ones. I'm guessing whenver they add the fighter based prestige aps that all thought of tempest will go out of fighters heads and they'll be goin look look my stuffs uber haha poor rangers only get tempest... when that happens i will gladly point back at this thread and go... reeeeeaaaaaaaaalllllyyyyyyy?

Yaga_Nub
02-28-2008, 03:08 PM
This is ironic, because there already were rules for who can become a Tempest and who can't.

And we're not the ones who aren't playing by the rules. ;)

As has been pointed out many times over the past 2 years, even by you MT, the DM can make house rules and guess who the DM is.

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 03:14 PM
As has been pointed out many times over the past 2 years, even by you MT, the DM can make house rules and guess who the DM is.

And as everyone else likes to point out, including me at times, the forums are here to make (and debate the merits of) suggestions for the improvement of the game.

aheschel
02-28-2008, 04:38 PM
And as everyone else likes to point out, including me at times, the forums are here to make (and debate the merits of) suggestions for the improvement of the game.

Hmm, do not know if this would improve the game but maybe your build. Turbine is trying to give each class its own little enhancements to distinguish the class from the others. I would agree with this tactic. It gives each class inherit strengths and weakness that can clearly be defined for the player base. As far as PNP having it, DDO does not have the complexities that PNP has and never will because it is a video game. That probably is a good thing, also. Time to move on from this topic it is not going to change.

Aesop
02-28-2008, 04:51 PM
Hmm, do not know if this would improve the game but maybe your build. Turbine is trying to give each class its own little enhancements to distinguish the class from the others. I would agree with this tactic. It gives each class inherit strengths and weakness that can clearly be defined for the player base. As far as PNP having it, DDO does not have the complexities that PNP has and never will because it is a video game. That probably is a good thing, also. Time to move on from this topic it is not going to change.

I think I've finally gotten a headache from this.

<edited: 'cause mama always said if ya ain't got nothin nice to say, don't say nothin a'tal>

Aesop

Torosar
02-28-2008, 05:29 PM
i have ran in no contradictory circle.. in fact in your replies you have though.. by saying so you may want to look up what contradictory means

Perhaps you should enlighten us then, seeing as it appears you are the only one in this thread who has a different understanding to everyone else. I mean, i'd only have the same definition as these other guys in here.. so unless you are the all knowing source of ineffable wisdom, i'd like to know why that is. I fail to see how clearly describing to you how and why a ranger can effectively use a bow and twf is contradictory. I fail to see how easily depicting to you how any + makes a big difference to you, especially with good gear, is contradictory. I even tell you what a ranger can do for damage, and you don't want to believe me. I think that's your policy right? "If i don't believe it! Then i can't be wrong!".

For the record, saying you are "one of the top 3 fastest soloing rangers at dq" implying you are good at doing damage and then in the same post saying that extra + to your damage is useless.. and then again saying that the best part of your damage isn't significant (i.e. beating DR) really takes any credit you have to be posting about damage.

Myself and others have tried to help you gain a boost to your toons, someone was even nice enough to give you some numbers to look at seeing as words appear to be confusing. If you wish to remain oblivious towards them, okay, have fun playing.

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 10:03 PM
As far as PNP having it, DDO does not have the complexities that PNP has and never will because it is a video game. That probably is a good thing, also.

DDO has far more "complexities" than most comparable video games, and it seems that that fact is almost universally popular among DDO players.

Just because DDO cannot hope to ever truly match D&D for possible options, doesn't mean DDO shouldn't do it's best to a) implement as many options as possible and b) implement them in a fashion faithful to D&D.

aheschel
02-29-2008, 02:00 AM
DDO has far more "complexities" than most comparable video games, and it seems that that fact is almost universally popular among DDO players.

Just because DDO cannot hope to ever truly match D&D for possible options, doesn't mean DDO shouldn't do it's best to a) implement as many options as possible and b) implement them in a fashion faithful to D&D.

I would agree with you but this is a theological argument. I have never played D&D but I assume the complexities compared to DDO are not even close and thus makes DDO more of a video game first with roots in D&D. Thus, you could say that they have done both A and B. They have implemented as many options as they can for a video game version of D&D and stayed as faithful as they could with the development resources and player base they have. This is going to be a tough battle to win because there is really no good answer and it is a finite complaint that will have equal numbers of people agreeing and disagreeing.

Aesop
02-29-2008, 05:06 AM
I would agree with you but this is a theological argument. I have never played D&D but I assume the complexities compared to DDO are not even close and thus makes DDO more of a video game first with roots in D&D. Thus, you could say that they have done both A and B. They have implemented as many options as they can for a video game version of D&D and stayed as faithful as they could with the development resources and player base they have. This is going to be a tough battle to win because there is really no good answer and it is a finite complaint that will have equal numbers of people agreeing and disagreeing.

I disagree with this statement. I believe there are far more options that are possible and quite viable within the context of an online videa game. The option of PrEs being available to any character that meets the prerequisites should a viable and valid option. This isn't like coding an open ended Wish Spell into the game which would require analytical thought, reasoning and judgement on the part of the AI it might even break down to and IF/THAN statement.

The only problem I can see is if they linked all coding of Features and Enhancements to Class/Race levels instead of Character level with Class and Racial Feature being the prerequisites... which seems like a huge mistake and I hope they didn't do that. But regardless even if they did that it would still be possible to code out a universal PrE system.

Aesop

dragnmoon
02-29-2008, 06:04 AM
If they are going to use the Enhancements for Prestige classes for now, The enhancement pre regs and rules governing Prestige classes should be applied to the enhancements.

Some prestige classes require certain class abilities, Some require certain Races.. Tempest is not one of those. Tempest should be open to all classes..

These are the Pre regs for Tempest

Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting


All the Prestige class/Enhancement system should follow the rules already set by D&D if possible, Since this game is Based on D&D there should not be any reason to go off that if possible.

Edit: That said, There will be very few Builds That would take advantage of Tempest Outside of Rogue, Fighter and Ranger. Opening it up to all classes as it should be will not mean there will be a ton of say Wizards with tempest.

dragnmoon
02-29-2008, 06:05 AM
DDO has far more "complexities" than most comparable video games, and it seems that that fact is almost universally popular among DDO players.

Just because DDO cannot hope to ever truly match D&D for possible options, doesn't mean DDO shouldn't do it's best to a) implement as many options as possible and b) implement them in a fashion faithful to D&D.


Agreed... This Game is D&D Online... Not Generic MMO Online. It should follow D&D where possible.

Yaga_Nub
02-29-2008, 07:02 AM
And as everyone else likes to point out, including me at times, the forums are here to make (and debate the merits of) suggestions for the improvement of the game.

That's it! I'm DONE with your reasoning and logic! I am branding you a heretic and traitor to the realm. You will cease and desist forthwith or I will do a Jimmy "Supa-Fly" Snooka off the steps in the Portable Hole right on top of your head when you are there next!

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 07:12 AM
The only problem I can see is if they linked all coding of Features and Enhancements to Class/Race levels instead of Character level with Class and Racial Feature being the prerequisites... which seems like a huge mistake and I hope they didn't do that. But regardless even if they did that it would still be possible to code out a universal PrE system.

I'm fairly certain they did. Not with class/racial features being prerequisites, but simply class/race level prereqs.

There's a reason the boosts aren't just split up between the classes and called _____ Boost, they're called <Class> _____ Boost.

But that doesn't mean they can't make enhancements available to everyone (see the Iron Companion line for evidence). I just suspect it's a bit harder.

malnon
02-29-2008, 12:57 PM
In pen and paper, fighters make the second best tempests (only just behind Rangers).

DDO could reflect this by giving the Tempest enhancement to fighters, but at a higher AP cost.

Incorrect. A fighter makes the best Tempest in PnP. With the extra feats you can get into tempest faster as a fighter. The only downside is you have to wear light armor. Also as a fighter you can take IC, weapon focus, etc to increase your damage output. A ranger in PnP is not nearly as versatile as one in DDO. They loose a lot of feats to get spring attack compared to a fighter. And in PnP a rangers spells are not nearly as useful as in DDO. And it should not be limited to any one class/race, as a PrC was intended.

On a side note. I completely agree with the OP. My ranger/fighter got ****ed over hard by not being able to take the lame tempest enhancement. It is supposed to be a PrC anyway. They really need to get on this PrC band wagon and do it right instead of cobbling together enhancements. PrCs was one of the things that set 3.0/3.5 ahead of other PnP products.

Instead of contributing to a better gaming experience the dev's are more concerned about fixing our ability to spin around while shrining.

Cinwulf
02-29-2008, 01:12 PM
The new Tempest enhancement for Rangers should be changed so Fighters can get it too.

The requirements should be changed to:
Ranger1 or Fighter1, character level 6, Improved TWF, Spring Attack.

That would slightly increase the flexibility of character builds. Note that although it might be nicer theoretically to allow characters of any class to take it, in practice only a fighter or ranger is likely to muster up the five feats needed to qualify.

As soon as Rangers get fighter's armor mastery :) And critical hit enhmts

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 01:12 PM
Incorrect. A fighter makes the best Tempest in PnP. With the extra feats you can get into tempest faster as a fighter. The only downside is you have to wear light armor. Also as a fighter you can take IC, weapon focus, etc to increase your damage output. A ranger in PnP is not nearly as versatile as one in DDO. They loose a lot of feats to get spring attack compared to a fighter. And in PnP a rangers spells are not nearly as useful as in DDO. And it should not be limited to any one class/race, as a PrC was intended.

On a side note. I completely agree with the OP. My ranger/fighter got ****ed over hard by not being able to take the lame tempest enhancement. It is supposed to be a PrC anyway. They really need to get on this PrC band wagon and do it right instead of cobbling together enhancements. PrCs was one of the things that set 3.0/3.5 ahead of other PnP products.

Instead of contributing to a better gaming experience the dev's are more concerned about fixing our ability to spin around while shrining.

I'm confused. How is this a downside again? (the part in bright red)

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 01:19 PM
Incorrect. A fighter makes the best Tempest in PnP. With the extra feats you can get into tempest faster as a fighter. The only downside is you have to wear light armor. Also as a fighter you can take IC, weapon focus, etc to increase your damage output. A ranger in PnP is not nearly as versatile as one in DDO. They loose a lot of feats to get spring attack compared to a fighter. And in PnP a rangers spells are not nearly as useful as in DDO. And it should not be limited to any one class/race, as a PrC was intended.

No one can get into Tempest faster. BAB +6 is a requirement so neither rangers nor fighters can take the first level of the PrC before 7th.

On the other hand, a Ranger doesn't need dexterity in order to qualify for ITWF, meaning he can have a higher strength. (Of course, in D&D, a fighter can also qualify for ITWF via spell or item, but in either case he's relying on some other source which can be interfered with or requires some additional resource expendiure).

It's true that a Tempest ranger won't get the bow feats, but it would be silly for most Tempest in DDO to ever use bows. They'd be far better off dual-wielding returning throwing weapons of some sort.

And why the heck would their spells be less useful in D&D?

Cinwulf
02-29-2008, 01:21 PM
And why the heck would their spells be less useful in D&D?

Maybe has something to do with a rangers caster level in pnp compared to DDO.

malnon
02-29-2008, 01:23 PM
I'm confused. How is this a downside again? (the part in bright red)

In PnP dex for a fighter is not so skewed like it is in DDO. Also, minimium dex for a fighter to get into tempest is 17 for improved two weapon fighting. (I do not think greater is required, I would need to check the book. I am at work and cannot) So a fighter wearing mihtral FP is not losing anything with a dex of 17. However if he is required to wear light armor in PnP the best he can do is +5 mithral chain shirt (+6 dex bonus = 15 AC) or +5 mithral BP (+5 dex bonus = 15 AC). Whereas +5 mithral FP is +3 dex bonus = 16 AC. Magic stat boosters in PnP by the RAW are not nearly as accessible, so in PnP it becomes a much bigger issue.

And AC has fallen to the wayside in DDO, in PnP it is still a factor.

I am pretty sure thoose number are correct. I cannot find mithrl armor in the SRD.

malnon
02-29-2008, 01:26 PM
No one can get into Tempest faster. BAB +6 is a requirement so neither rangers nor fighters can take the first level of the PrC before 7th.

Incorrect. Work the feat requirements for spring attack. How can a ranger beat a fighter?

ehcsztein
02-29-2008, 01:27 PM
I wonder, if they changed the name of it to "Ranger's Two Weapon Mastery" instead of tempest would this still be an issue?

Honestly it seems many folks are hung up on the name and are bent because that name means X in PnP and should mean X in DDO etc.

just a thought... but ontological disagreements seem to get tiresome long before they achieve anything.

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 01:33 PM
Maybe has something to do with a rangers caster level in pnp compared to DDO.

Ah yes, that.

They can still be pretty useful though.

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 01:34 PM
Incorrect. Work the feat requirements for spring attack. How can a ranger beat a fighter?

Feats at first, third, sixth for a ranger.

Feats at first, first, second for a fighter.

But you also need BAB +6 and they both get that at 6th level.

Angelus_dead
02-29-2008, 01:34 PM
I wonder, if they changed the name of it to "Ranger's Two Weapon Mastery" instead of tempest would this still be an issue?
Yes it would be. Both fighters and rangers have class features making it easier for you to learn two-weapon fighting than other characters, thus there's no pre-existing reason for only one of them to get this enhancement.


Honestly it seems many folks are hung up on the name and are bent because that name means X in PnP and should mean X in DDO etc.
The DDO enhancement was very blatantly copied from the PnP prestige class. Not only are the names the same, but the requirements (BAB 6, ITWF, and Spring Attack) are all the same too.

malnon
02-29-2008, 01:34 PM
Maybe has something to do with a rangers caster level in pnp compared to DDO.

Correct. I was just talking to some people about this. I believe they worked it out that rangers caster level has been bumped from .5 per level in pnp to 1 per level in DDO. Making them more effective casters in DDO. Example.

A wizard/sorc/cleric has to bang out 11 level straight levels to caste the 30 resists. Yet rangers are doing it at some insanely low level. If you check the srd, they only get bonus spells at levels 4 and 5 and only one standard level one spell at level 6 to 9. They get their first normal level two spell at level 10. So DDO bumps their caster level enormously. Direct qoute from the SRD "Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.". So a ranger needs to be level 22 to cast 30 resists.

Snoggy
02-29-2008, 01:38 PM
Will Monks be able to use two fists at once?

Cinwulf
02-29-2008, 01:38 PM
Correct. I was just talking to some people about this. I believe they worked it out that rangers caster level has been bumped from .5 per level in pnp to 1 per level in DDO. Making them more effective casters in DDO. Example.

A wizard/sorc/cleric has to bang out 11 level straight levels to caste the 30 resists. Yet rangers are doing it at some insanely low level. If you check the srd, they only get bonus spells at levels 4 and 5 and only one standard level one spell at level 6 to 9. They get their first normal level two spell at level 10. So DDO bumps their caster level enormously. Direct qoute from the SRD "Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.". So a ranger needs to be level 22 to cast 30 resists.

The same thing with paladins in DDO compared to pnp.

Mad_Bombardier
02-29-2008, 01:44 PM
Incorrect. Work the feat requirements for spring attack. How can a ranger beat a fighter?Better question: why does is matter if you take Spring Attack at Fighter4 or Ranger6? Oh, ya. It doesn't.

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 01:45 PM
In PnP dex for a fighter is not so skewed like it is in DDO. Also, minimium dex for a fighter to get into tempest is 17 for improved two weapon fighting. (I do not think greater is required, I would need to check the book. I am at work and cannot) So a fighter wearing mihtral FP is not losing anything with a dex of 17. However if he is required to wear light armor in PnP the best he can do is +5 mithral chain shirt (+6 dex bonus = 15 AC) or +5 mithral BP (+5 dex bonus = 15 AC). Whereas +5 mithral FP is +3 dex bonus = 16 AC. Magic stat boosters in PnP by the RAW are not nearly as accessible, so in PnP it becomes a much bigger issue.

And AC has fallen to the wayside in DDO, in PnP it is still a factor.

I am pretty sure thoose number are correct. I cannot find mithrl armor in the SRD.

Ah huh. . .

19 Dex to get Greater Two Weapon Fighting (not needed, but you'd be hard pressed to find a dual wielding fighter who doesn't plan for that eventually). Just 1 dexterity short of filling out the Mithral Breastplate.

You'd be a whole 1 point of AC short of the Mithral Full Plate.

So again, I'm not sure why you say Light Armor is a PENALTY.

malnon
02-29-2008, 01:51 PM
Feats at first, third, sixth for a ranger.

Feats at first, first, second for a fighter.

But you also need BAB +6 and they both get that at 6th level.

You may be correct. Although a ranger needs to take spring attack(BAB +4 required) at level 6, if you are thinking human with a bonus feat. So they could both make it in at level 7. I might be thinking of the 3.0 tempest PrC and not the 3.5 version.

malnon
02-29-2008, 01:53 PM
Better question: why does is matter if you take Spring Attack at Fighter4 or Ranger6? Oh, ya. It doesn't.

I was thinking more than 3 feats were required. I may be thinking of 3.0 PrC not 3.5. I need to check my books this weekend. It does matter for BAB progression for a ranger as they are only getting feats every third level as opposed to a fighter.

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 01:53 PM
Incorrect. Work the feat requirements for spring attack. How can a ranger beat a fighter?
Ranger 1: Dodge, Favored Enemy(1 at +2), Track, Wild empathy
Ranger 2: Combat Style (Two Weapon Fighting)
Ranger 3: Mobility, Endurance
Ranger 4: Animal Companion, Spellcasting
Ranger 5: Favored Enemy(2 at +2/+4)
Ranger 6: Spring Attack, Improved Combat Style (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)

Fighter 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Dodge
Fighter 2: Mobility
Fighter 3: Extra Feat
Fighter 4: Spring Attack
Fighter 6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Extra Feat

Thought that'd give another look at it, highlighting the extras that each one gets.

malnon
02-29-2008, 01:57 PM
Ah huh. . .

19 Dex to get Greater Two Weapon Fighting (not needed, but you'd be hard pressed to find a dual wielding fighter who doesn't plan for that eventually). Just 1 dexterity short of filling out the Mithral Breastplate.

You'd be a whole 1 point of AC short of the Mithral Full Plate.

So again, I'm not sure why you say Light Armor is a PENALTY.

Not required of a fighter going tempest. Also, in PnP +5 items are not nearly as rampant. Especially mithral armors. +6 stat items are epic level equipment, 20 and above, for PnP. Not level 8 to 9 items as in DDO.

malnon
02-29-2008, 02:02 PM
Ranger 1: Dodge, Favored Enemy(1 at +2), Track, Wild empathy
Ranger 2: Combat Style (Two Weapon Fighting)
Ranger 3: Mobility, Endurance
Ranger 4: Animal Companion, Spellcasting
Ranger 5: Favored Enemy(2 at +2/+4)
Ranger 6: Spring Attack, Improved Combat Style (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)

Fighter 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Dodge
Fighter 2: Mobility
Fighter 3: Extra Feat
Fighter 4: Spring Attack
Fighter 6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Extra Feat

Thought that'd give another look at it, highlighting the extras that each one gets.

Favored enemy progression is not that good. Qoute "At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2."

Both do not get the increase.

Your animal companion will not increase. Making him nothing more than fodder.

Also, you only get one base spell per day at level 6 plus any bonus spells from high wisdom.

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 02:26 PM
Not required of a fighter going tempest. Also, in PnP +5 items are not nearly as rampant. Especially mithral armors. +6 stat items are epic level equipment, 20 and above, for PnP. Not level 8 to 9 items as in DDO.

What are you talking about?

Mithral Breastplate: (first, need the Mithral. Should be buyable in large cities)
Cost is 4,200gp for this item: Craft DC is 20 due to being Mithral.

Time to completion is based on how high your Craft skill is.

Enchanting it to +5 can be done by any CL15 caster (arcane or divine) with the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat. (Potentially a quest hook even!)

But +6 stat items, epic? Nonsense. Cloak of Charisma +6 requires a Caster Level of *8*, Craft Wondrous Item feat, Eagle's Splendor as a spell, 18000 gp, and 1440 xp. Hardly epic. And oh no, it'd take 36 weeks to make. (1 week per 1000 gp of cost)

Oh, and here they're Min Level 13, not 8 or 9.

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 02:31 PM
Favored enemy progression is not that good. Qoute "At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2."

Both do not get the increase.

Your animal companion will not increase. Making him nothing more than fodder.

Also, you only get one base spell per day at level 6 plus any bonus spells from high wisdom.

????

Animal Companions for Rangers do get better, just at a slower rate than they do for Druids. At 6 ranger, your companion gets an additional 2 HD as well as Evasion.
And I already noted the bit about the Favored Enemies in my previous post: Note how I listed the lv5 version at "2 at +2/+4"?

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 02:39 PM
Animal Companions for Rangers do get better, just at a slower rate than they do for Druids. At 6 ranger, your companion gets an additional 2 HD as well as Evasion.

I think he means if you take 5 levels to become a Tempest.

Riggs
03-01-2008, 01:31 AM
Fighters need their own specialty classes/enhancements.

Dualist, weapon master, a dozen others im sure. Lots of things fighters are going to need when monks come in with their double attacks and high ac and ....barbs have crit rage 3 or 4...rangers have 5 favored enemies for +15 damage each...

EspyLacopa
03-01-2008, 06:54 AM
Fighters need their own specialty classes/enhancements.

Dualist, weapon master, a dozen others im sure. Lots of things fighters are going to need when monks come in with their double attacks and high ac and ....barbs have crit rage 3 or 4...rangers have 5 favored enemies for +15 damage each...

Fighter Specialty Enhancements:


Dwarven Defender (also available to non-fighter Dwarves, similar to Arcane Archer for Elves and Rangers)
This would be a defensive set, giving the Defensive Stance clickie ability. Possibly an additional bonus to DR granted by Shields
Duelist
Finesse Offense set: would give a bonus on damage with finessable weapons, as well as possibly a bonus to reflex saves and AC.Can't think of a good third one for the two-handed weapon fighter. . .

dragnmoon
03-01-2008, 07:05 AM
Fighter Specialty Enhancements:

Dwarven Defender (also available to non-fighter Dwarves, similar to Arcane Archer for Elves and Rangers)
This would be a defensive set, giving the Defensive Stance clickie ability. Possibly an additional bonus to DR granted by Shields
Duelist
Finesse Offense set: would give a bonus on damage with finessable weapons, as well as possibly a bonus to reflex saves and AC. Can't think of a good third one for the two-handed weapon fighter. . .

I Still think if they are going to Use Enhancements as Prestige classes they should stick to D&D as much as possible.. since this is D&D online..

Dwarven defender Requires you be a Dwarf... That is why it is Called Dwarven defender..

Aesop
03-01-2008, 09:35 AM
Duelist would be a good Rogue Ranger or Monk combination as well :D

Aesop

EspyLacopa
03-01-2008, 10:31 AM
I Still think if they are going to Use Enhancements as Prestige classes they should stick to D&D as much as possible.. since this is D&D online..

Dwarven defender Requires you be a Dwarf... That is why it is Called Dwarven defender..

In that regard, Arcane Archer should also require you to be an Elf.

MysticTheurge
03-01-2008, 11:25 AM
In that regard, Arcane Archer should also require you to be an Elf.

Which probably means they'd make Dwarven Defender open to either Fighters or Dwarves.

EspyLacopa
03-01-2008, 11:38 AM
Which probably means they'd make Dwarven Defender open to either Fighters or Dwarves.
As I pointed out in my original post, complete with the reference to Arcane Archers and Rangers/Elves.

Drakyn
03-07-2008, 05:02 PM
yea lets give fighters tempest along with their 835797 feats, itll be great......

Angelus_dead
02-02-2009, 12:42 AM
Which probably means they'd make Dwarven Defender open to either Fighters or Dwarves.
Hey, that turned out to be true... sorta... if they can get it to work, someday...