PDA

View Full Version : Barb Build Reccomendation TWF WF



Pyrothraxus
02-21-2008, 11:57 PM
Hey guys relatively new player here. Been browsing the forums for sometime and got some good ideas from Iluminati as far as barb build and mine i believe is very similar. Few questions after u take a look at my build.

ghghfghgf
Level 16 Neutral Good Warforged Male
(2 Fighter / 14 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 16/16/21/2626
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 8
Will: 2

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16) (Level 16)
Strength 17 22 23
Dexterity 17 19 19
Constitution 14 16 18
Intelligence 10 10 10
Wisdom 6 6 6
Charisma 6 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 2
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 12
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 12

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16) (Level 16)
Balance 3 13.5 8.5
Bluff 0 4 4
Concentration 2 4 4
Diplomacy -2 -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 0 5.5 5.5
Heal -2 -2 -2
Hide 3 4 -1
Intimidate -2 -2 -2
Jump 3 25 20
Listen -2 -2 -2
Move Silently 3 4 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 0 0 0
Search 0 0 0
Spot -2 -2 -2
Swim 3 6 -4
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Adamantine Body
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Composite Plating
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Light Fortification
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Warforged Resistances
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

Level 2 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Rage
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I

Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I

Level 4 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Damage Reduction
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I

Level 5 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend II

Level 7 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Item Defense I

Level 8 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II

Level 9 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III

Level 10 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II

Level 11 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage III

Level 12 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III

Level 13 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Rage
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Critical Rage I

Level 14 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5) \par Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage IV

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Superior Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III

Level 16 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Indomitable Will
Enhancement: Barbarian Critical Rage II

So my Questions

1) I like Adamantine body at low lvls for the added protection but as I understand it is faily useless at higher lvls. If i switch it out what feat would u reccomend? Was thinking Improved Crit Peirce maybe if i get Deathnips in the future. If not that what would u reccomend and why?

2) My constitution is not all that high. Will it make a huge impact endgame? Could up it another point i think if i didnt invest one in int and maybe just use a tome +1 to get it to 0 modifier. How much does -1 impact me if i didnt invest any?

3) The will save enhance.... is it worth getting? I was thinking of just getting 1 rather than 2 and use the points for another level of WF constitution.

4) Favor tomes..... i understand they bind. Am i better off using it on Str or Cons? Kinda used a +2 on both here but im thinking by the time i make my char i may only have access to 1 +2 tome.

5) Focused mainly on Rage enhancements... is there anything else I shold have considered that i didnt include in this build? If so what and why?

6) Skill wise i focused mainly on jump and balance with some haggle and bluff. Should I consider another skill? Was thinking maybe intimidated but i never used it on my first barb and was not sure of its worth. What do u think?

Opinions are very welcome. Im very new to the game and im in the process of unlocking the 32 point build (1k favor to go >.>; ) so in no way an expert. Using my Sorc to gain favor and loot to funnel to the barb in the future once i can make him so hopefully by that time a few +2 or +3 tomes. Thank you for the feedback guys.

Pyrothraxus
02-23-2008, 03:02 AM
Also.... I was thinking of getting 2 Healer friendly enhancments..... Is the added 5% worth it or is investing in one of the enhancement enough?

negative
02-23-2008, 09:06 AM
I don't have a Barb, but I do have two WF and two TWF's.

- Someone can contradict me on this, but I wouldn't depend on Sup. TWF ever being put in the game. It's not in yet, and I'd say its 50/50 chance wether it ever goes in before epic levels.

- As far as Adam. body, if you were going to put your barb in heavy armor end game (if he wasn't WF), I'd take it. With the dex you have, it probably isn't worth it. Between the AC from whatever docent you equip, and other protection/AC bonus items, mithral body probably isn't worth it either, I'd have to think about it longer to be sure. As for an alternate feat, I didn't see you taking any toughness, and even if you did, another toughness feat isn't going to hurt anything. I think others might suggest power attack (not sure how i feel about that for a TWF), and there is another feat i can't think of atm.

EDIT: Also, the DR from Adam. Body does NOT stack with the Barb DR. So, yah. Probably not worth it.

- You could also free up another feat by dropping Kopesh, and switching to another weapon. I've seen some interesting builds using heavy picks on a Barb (leverging the increased crit threat rage enhancements).

Pyrothraxus
02-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Thanks neg for the input. Yeah was thinking about the SWF may not being put in yet. Considering getting Inproved Crit peirce in its place if it hasnt been implemented and the using my free feat swap to switch that or maybe adaman for SWF when they put it in.

As for Khopesh vs Heavy Picks i was under the understanding that Khopesh has a higher crit theat comapred to the rest of the weps? Is this incorrect? The reason i was gonna use Peirce was for deathnips in the future if i ever get my hands on them. Is it worth getting the Imp Crit Peirce without them? If so please explain why.

Thanks for the feedback.

negative
02-24-2008, 11:57 AM
Well, I spoke with some guildmates (I've been away from the game for a couple of months) to get the low down on STWF. I guess it was almost in the game, but now, nobody's sure. I did hear that it would require 19 dex, so keep that in mind. That's before items.

As for Kopesh vs. Heavy Pick, looking at some of Illuminati's threads, I guess he's saying Kopesh gets you 4% more damage than Heavy Picks, unless you are using deathnips (I'm not familiar with deathnips myself, but it sounds like it increases the crit threat range?). Part of it is going to depend on what weapons you have in the bank. Heavy Picks are easier to find that Kopesh since they are used less often. On the other hand, I don't think Illuminati's numbers take into account (though he does acknowledge it) that you can get Wounding/Punct. Heavy Picks but not Kopesh.

The reason both Kopesh and Heavy Picks are both good is the crit range, combined with the Barb Crit Rage enhancement that increases the threat range by 2. With the Imp. Crit feat for either, and using green steel weapons, you have a Kopesh that does 1d10 15-20 x3 and a Heavy Pick that does 1d6 17-20 x4. Combine a Bloodstone (+18 dmg per crit for Kopesh, +24 dmg per crit for Heavy Pick) with either of those and the massive and common crits make their DPS higher than any other weapons. Personally I think the choice comes down to personally perference, as 4% more dmg vs, wounding/punct. is pretty much a toss-up to me.

boldarblood
02-24-2008, 02:36 PM
Your AC will never be high enough to matter end game.

Two weapon fighting, power attack, improved two weapon fighting, improved crit piercing, greater two weapon fighting, stunning blow (for a 2 hand build, swap out 2 weapon fighting for 2H fighting, everything else the same)

That is feats I would take in that order. You do not need any toughness on a 16 barb (I run a 16 barb, without toughness, but I do use the minos helm and a greater false life belt). Unubuffed I sit at 414 hit points. *edit - just noticed that you also have 2 Fighter in you and little lower Con, so with extra feat toughness is not bad option on this build.




For Skill points I like Jump / Balance / Spot. I know spot is cross classed, but still end up with 9.5 for levels + 13-17 for goggles, +4 for GH. Usually decent enough to see most mobs. I prefer Spot over Listen as the Goggles spot is less important to a Barb than any other spot. And if you get lucky enough can end up with Sandstorm Goggles from Raid, or Intricate Field Optics (which works great with spot, as it is detect secret door / spot 13).

1750 Favor Tome should go to strength imho. With the addition of the Vale though, you always have the chance to pull 2 tomes out there that are not bound. Or if they add Superior 2 Weapon Fighting that should be a 19 dex and your 2 tome could be good there.

Pyrothraxus
02-24-2008, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the input. Ive gotta look into Wounding/Puncturing stats. Where do Deathnips drop and what level are they equipable? Thanks for the mini breakdown of crit ranges Neg. As for power attack I was not sure if they were worth getting. Have to look into them some more also. May swap out my Adamantine feat for it if it does make a good difference over the added ac. Good Idea for spot. Didnt really consider that one though i think it would be more beneficial in the long run vs haggle ( can just get an item ). Now picks get Wounding/Punc but do they get vorpal? and is Wounding/Punc better than vorp? I was under the impression vorp was better but i was not sure.

Hadrian
02-24-2008, 11:38 PM
I would follow the above advice and forget about taking a body feat. Look out for a Docent of Defiance if you want to improve your defense. They drop in the Cursed Crypt. They have improved fire, cold and electricity resistance and have a chance to proc 20 seconds of a 20/- DR effect whenever you're hit. The cost of this is an annoying slow movement effect, but it's worth it for 20/- DR.

As for Deathnip, you get those by turning in a full set of tome pages from Litany of the Dead. It will take you a while to collect them all, but you can often buy pages for roughly 150-200K plat each.

Pyrothraxus
02-25-2008, 04:44 PM
Thank for the tip on the docent. Have to keep an eye out for that one. As for the Litany of the dead tomes how many pages equal a full set and where can they typically be obtained/looted? I couldnt find them in Auction. May not have been looking at the right area.

Hadrian
02-25-2008, 05:01 PM
They can be looted from the quest "Litany of the Dead." You have to beat one of the four bosses and open the chest outside on the tower as a part of getting ready for the Abbot. That final chest after each boss has a chance to drop a specific tome 1-4, and any of the random tomes 5-8. So tomes 1-4 are each tied to a specific boss and only drop from his chest. Tomes 5-8 are randomly dropped from any of the 4 bosses.

You find them on the AH under collectables.

negative
02-25-2008, 05:32 PM
Re: Vorpals vs Wound/Punct

Vorpal is only on slashing weapons, so you won't find it on a pick. Puncturing is only on peircing, so you won't find it on a kopesh. Wounding is found on both.

In my opinion, vorpals are overrated. They are situational at best, and those situations are few are far between. In most cases, you're better off using a straight damage effect. With a vorpal, you are banking on "rolling that 20". And until you do, you're effectively doing nothing. If someone else kills the mob you've been beating on before the vorpal goes off, you just wasted your time. You might as well have been doing nothing. (Unless you are an intimitank and you are doing that while using a vorp).

Wound/Punct. on the other hand, is good against anything that can take Con dmg (almost everything). And unlike vorpal, the effects are immediate. You are doing Con dmg from the first strike, and many times, the amount of (max) HP lost from losing Con is much greater than you could do with straight damage alone. Even if you don't outright kill the mob with Con dmg, the mob will die much faster than if it hadn't of taken con dmg. Combined with the fact that you're already doing great DPS using Heavy Picks, and you're a killing machine. You're not just killing things faster yourself, you're helping anyone in the party who is beating on the mob kill it quicker.

I'll point out, that from a straight Con dmg point of view, a Wound/Punct. Rapier is better, because it crits more often. But you aren't making a rogue (who is relying on only con dmg/sneak attack to to damage), you're making a Barb, and a Heavy Pick will outdamage a Rapier.

Last note, just remember, both vorpals and wound/punct (on any weapon type) are extremely rare. I'm a founder and I only just pulled my first vorpal this weekend, and I've never pulled a wound/punct on any type of weapon, ever.

Hadrian
02-25-2008, 09:12 PM
Vorpals are hardly rare. You can go to the AH and buy one for less than one LotD tome page typically.

W/P rapiers are extremely rare. You're not likely to get one unless you pull it yourself because it's difficult to find someone who has one and would be willing to trade it.

If you do go W/P, you're not really concerned with damage. W/P picks will be far inferior to even w/p daggers because the crit rate is more important than the crit multiplier. I would never advise someone to go with w/p picks on a barbarian because they do more physical damage.

Taerdra
02-26-2008, 08:14 AM
Don't see you getting much point out of the 2 build points spent on INT. Either put them in CON for longer rage, etc., or WIS to slightly improve your Will save.

Your Will save is low, but you will get some decent increases when you are raged. I think the problem you will find is that GH doesn't stack with Rage, so you're still going to have a low Will save in the end game. WF immunities cover some of those issues tho, so overall I would guess you won't find it that bad.

I also think you should look at taking at least one of your Ftr levels later in the build. You would get more mileage if you saved 1 feat for later (8+) in the build.

negative
02-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Vorpals are hardly rare. You can go to the AH and buy one for less than one LotD tome page typically.

W/P rapiers are extremely rare. You're not likely to get one unless you pull it yourself because it's difficult to find someone who has one and would be willing to trade it.

If you do go W/P, you're not really concerned with damage. W/P picks will be far inferior to even w/p daggers because the crit rate is more important than the crit multiplier. I would never advise someone to go with w/p picks on a barbarian because they do more physical damage.

Meh, I still say vorpals are rare. Not that it matters, since they are so situaltional.

You do point out an important point I was kinda dancing around, which is that a W/P Pick isn't as good as a W/P with a larger crit threat range, regardless of how big your threat range is while raging. Still, if you focus on Pierce to use heavy picks as your main damage dealers, you can always use a different piercing weapon as your W/P (most likely whichever weapon you find it on). As good as W/P is, there will still when straight dmg is better. And you'd get a lot of milage out of Heavy Picks until you found one or more W/P. You could even use a W/P in one hand and a heavy pick in the other to great affect if mobs are dying of HP dmg before Con dmg. Either way, the con dmg is bring them down a lot faster.

negative
02-26-2008, 03:22 PM
Don't see you getting much point out of the 2 build points spent on INT. Either put them in CON for longer rage, etc., or WIS to slightly improve your Will save.

Your Will save is low, but you will get some decent increases when you are raged. I think the problem you will find is that GH doesn't stack with Rage, so you're still going to have a low Will save in the end game. WF immunities cover some of those issues tho, so overall I would guess you won't find it that bad.

Well, I'm not a huge Barb player, but in the past I've seen a lot of high level Barbs say their will save is great while raging, even if they started with a low wisdom. Granted, 6 is pretty low, but speaking from experiance w/ WF, the immunities take care of almost everything, greater command being a notable exception, but I'm not sure that gets cast enough to change how I would build a character or that +1 to will saves would make a difference. If it's that big of a deal WF have an enhancement to increase their will saves (+1 for 2 AP I think). I can also see he's got 10 starting INT so that he gets 2 skill to put points into, Jump and Balance. I'd say that might be worth it, those are important skills for frontline melee types.

As for dropping those 2 points in Con, 14 or 15 starting Con doesn't sway me either way.

Taerdra
02-26-2008, 03:32 PM
I can also see he's got 10 starting INT so that he gets 2 skill to put points into, Jump and Balance. I'd say that might be worth it, those are important skills for frontline melee types.

You get 3 skill points with an 8 INT, more than enough for Jump and Balance which is all you really need on this build.


As for dropping those 2 points in Con, 14 or 15 starting Con doesn't sway me either way.

Again, you already have enough skill points, so what's not to like about a slightly longer rage and +16 HP? Honestly, I would prefer CON or WIS over INT given Barb skill points.

I wasn't trying to overemphasize the Will save point, but his will be lower than the average barb. The enhancement you spoke of is pretty helpful I would imagine and is +1 for 1 AP so not overly expensive.

Hadrian
02-26-2008, 11:36 PM
Will saves really aren't a problem at level 14+ barb. I started with 6 will, and I either use a +6 enchantment saves belt or a +6 wisdom item if I feel like I need to protect myself from some kind of will save. I can wear both at once if necessary putting me into the high 20s in will saves. That is pretty much overkill. With just the wisdom item I am in the low 20s and safe from most content.

As for all of that stuff about picks, the bottom line is don't go out of your way to get a W/P heavy pick. The extra physical damage from it is meaningless, and it will do less con damage than any other melee W/P weapon. If you want to do DPS, that is something else entirely. Don't try to mix the two at the same time. Either wield two DPS weapons or two stat damage weapons.

Pyrothraxus
02-27-2008, 04:40 AM
Great info guys. After reading the post i was thinking that I may just use items to increase int. Noob of me but I mistook upping int would affect action points for enhance and not skill points XD. Main reason i was going to get the 2 lvls of fighter early on is to be able to get the feats right away at early levels. What benefit would it be to take a fighter level at a higher level? Added stat of some sort? Depending on what weps i can get my hands on im gonna try to main hand Khopesh and Offhand a W/P Rapier or Heavy Pick. Im guessing Picks would be a better route due to a higher crit range compared to rapiers? The ones ive seen in the auction house seems a bit steep in price for me atm. I may be just unlucky but ive yet to loot a vorpal or W/P wep of any sort. Might be the quests im currently running. As for will saves id like to be as well rounded as possible and try to get something to enhance. I was just not sure how needed will saves were. From the looks of it the Rage and WF immunities would cover a few things. End game if i have a little lower than usual will save what am i going to have major issues with? Another thing end game. what am i loosing by not investing in power attack? can i do without or does this have a huge impact?

Cowdenicus
02-27-2008, 05:18 AM
Just a couple things I have noticed......

1. As a cleric it sucks to heal Warforged..... especially very high HP ones. even with the healers friend enhancements, it still sucks.

2. Human is the best way to go in my opinion. especially if you have 32 point builds available. (what barbarian doesnt need a free feat)

3. Picks are better than khopeshes. (in my opinion, but then my barbarian has a set of wounding puncturing picks also)

4. Multiclassing barbarians in my opinion is never worth it.... level 20 rocks for barbarians.

Shade
02-27-2008, 05:53 AM
Just a couple things I have noticed......

1. As a cleric it sucks to heal Warforged..... especially very high HP ones. even with the healers friend enhancements, it still sucks.

2. Human is the best way to go in my opinion. especially if you have 32 point builds available. (what barbarian doesnt need a free feat)

3. Picks are better than khopeshes. (in my opinion, but then my barbarian has a set of wounding puncturing picks also)

4. Multiclassing barbarians in my opinion is never worth it.... level 20 rocks for barbarians.

1. WF can get up to 95% healing now with the right gear and enhancements.. So yea most WF barbarian suck, but some can be great... Depends on how good the player behind it is.
2. Pfft, Dwarf is the master race when it comes to barbarians, everyone knows that. Who cares about an xtra feat, you pick a weapon style, you get power attack, you get improved crit, you get stunning blow. Theres nothing else that makes much difference.
3. Really interesting opinion that defies all logic but ok, to each his own.
4. Only point I can really agree on.

Pyrothraxus
02-27-2008, 09:49 AM
Please explain power attack and its uses. Why is it worth getting? Also benefits of staying pure Barb is what exactly? Also what are green steel weapons/armor and their stats? Anything worth considering?

Taerdra
02-27-2008, 12:35 PM
PAttack increases damage by +5 while -5 to hit. If you use two-handed weapons, the damage is doubled. There are also Barb (and WF for that matter) enhancements for PA. PA is a must on all Barb builds IMHO, no questions asked. Take it at lvl 3 on a pure build.

Green Steel weapons are available through new crafting process in Mod6 (after a lot of planning and looting ingredients I might add). I think they are worthwhile, but others are not completely convinced.

boldarblood
02-27-2008, 01:55 PM
Please explain power attack and its uses. Why is it worth getting? Also benefits of staying pure Barb is what exactly? Also what are green steel weapons/armor and their stats? Anything worth considering?

It's all about DPS. Your to hit while raged at end game is high enough that you can run around in power attack with all enhancements and still rarely miss. I have a Dwarf Barb with PA and all enhancements and only take off power attack against maybe half dozen fights in the whole game. I would never build a barb without it maxed.

Pyrothraxus
02-27-2008, 03:25 PM
Now lets see if I understand this correctly... +5 attack -5 acc at its base.... Maxing out will cost about 6 APs..... heh gonna have to see where i can pull that from the build. What stats are there for green weps/gear? is there a website that has a database of armors an how they are aquired?

Hadrian
02-27-2008, 04:06 PM
Depending on what weps i can get my hands on im gonna try to main hand Khopesh and Offhand a W/P Rapier or Heavy Pick. Im guessing Picks would be a better route due to a higher crit range compared to rapiers?

You have this backwards. Rapiers have the higher crit range. Picks have the lowest possible crit range of any weapon in the game. They have a higher damage multiplier. The only thing that matters for puncturing is the range, however.

If you have a w/p rapier, it will never be in your off-hand (unless you have two of them). Either go with DPS or go with stat damage. Don't wield a DPS weapon in one hand and a stat damage in the other. Do one thing at a time.

Also, you're mixing slashing and piercing. This would require two improved critical feats to make the most of the weapons.

Pyrothraxus
02-27-2008, 04:35 PM
With oversized wep feat which hand you have the rapier shouldnt matter no? Or did i misunderstand that? I was thinking of doing DPS Khopesh and puncturing rapier at low levels and a Vorpal Khopesh + puncturing pick/rapier at higher lvls. Why would having a mix of DPS weps and status weps be a bad thing? I would think that they would compliment each other with one weakening the enemy and the other finishing them off?

negative
02-27-2008, 06:05 PM
They are saying either to go only DPS or Stat dmg to get the most bang for your buck. If you mix, you aren't really doing great DPS or Stat dmg.

I agree with this for all types of stat dmg EXCEPT Con dmg. Now this is just my opinion, but as I understand it, con dmg will lower your current HP based on how much con dmg you take, even if you aren't at full health (this is why you die when you take your con item off at very low health, or your rage ends). So Con dmg and DPS compliment each other in my opinion. You don't don't have to be con dmging mobs to death for con dmg to be useful.

Edit: I will note, since I brought up picks and w/p, I didn't make my first post every clear, or think about it enough. If you went Imp. Crit: Pierce, you're probably better off using picks for DPS and another weapon type for w/p. Unless a pick is all you have. Though I still wounder if dual w/p heavy pick wouldn't synergize well based on the rest of this post.

boldarblood
02-27-2008, 07:29 PM
In all Honesty I don't believe you will need oversized two weapon fighting. With the barbs raged strength so high your not going to have a problem hitting.








With oversized wep feat which hand you have the rapier shouldnt matter no? Or did i misunderstand that? I was thinking of doing DPS Khopesh and puncturing rapier at low levels and a Vorpal Khopesh + puncturing pick/rapier at higher lvls. Why would having a mix of DPS weps and status weps be a bad thing? I would think that they would compliment each other with one weakening the enemy and the other finishing them off?

Hadrian
02-28-2008, 01:03 AM
With oversized wep feat which hand you have the rapier shouldnt matter no? Or did i misunderstand that?

That's not the reason why. The off-hand gets fewer swings than the main hand. You'll want to get as many swings with that rapier as possible, so it will be in your main hand.

You'll notice that when you W/P things they will appear to die with near full health because you're constantly dropping their maximum health. DPS in your off-hand won't kill anywhere remotely close to as fast as another W/P or even a puncturing weapon. You're going to reach 0 con well before you reach zero HP, so you may as well focus on getting to zero con faster.

Mixing the two just tries to kill your target two different ways at the same time, both slower than it would if you combined them.

All that said, if you're new to the game, don't plan out a build for a W/P rapier. Very few are out there floating around to be traded.

W/P items are so rare because they require two different bonuses to a weapon, one of which only appears on piercing weapons. There are fewer piercing weapon types than blunt or slashing because of the lack of two-handers. On top of that, crit range matters. Unlike a vorpal, where any slasher is as good as the next, there is only one weapon that is the "best" W/P.

So, for the rarity of a w/p rapier to be compared to a vorpal, consider it to be about the same odds as finding a vorpal scimitar of pure good, and no other type of vorpal.

The odds of finding any type of W/P weapon would be like finding a vorpal of pure good scimitar, kukri, longsword or battle axe, except unlike the vorpals, which kind it is makes a big difference.

That's how much more rare they are.

Pyrothraxus
02-28-2008, 02:09 AM
Lots of good points. I was not aware that offhand swung less than main and thought they swung equal. Stat dmgers would be better off on main so it has more chances to proc. About oversized 2WF. How big of an impact would it be if i didnt get it? Also as far as Power attack is concerned.... With the feat +3 Barb enhancement and +3 WF enhancement.... what is my dmg potential? +11dmg? How badly am i going to be missing? Is i worth getting all 6 enhancements?

Hadrian
02-28-2008, 12:29 PM
If you have TWF feats already, and you wield any weapon in your main hand with a light weapon in your offhand, you will get a -2 to hit penalty on both hands. If the weapon in your offhand is not light, then the penalty is -4 to each hand. Oversized TWF removes this penalty so that you only get a -2 to both hands no matter what is in your offhand.

If you fully enhance PA with barbarian and WF lines, you'll get an additional -11 to hit that adds with this.

So with the PA enhancements and without OTWF, you will get a -15 to hit.
With the PA enhancements and with OTWF, you'll get a -13 to hit.

With base PA and without OTWF, you'll get a -7 to hit.
With base PA and with OTWF, you'll get a -5 to hit.

Yes, base power attack is +5 damage per hit (+10 for Two-Handed Fighting).
Fully enhanced it will be +11 damage per hit (+22 for THF).

-13 to hit will cause you problems unless you're well equipped. Once you get the gear, you should be able to hit most content with this, but -13 is pushing it a little bit.

Pyrothraxus
02-28-2008, 01:49 PM
-15 Does sting a bit. Im not sure Oversized TWF adding 2 would make all that big of a difference. What equipment are u talking about that would help missing? or is it that increasing a stat that would help with missing less such as str?

Hadrian
02-28-2008, 04:25 PM
Yes, things like a +6 str item, +2-3 str tome, madstone boots, bloodstone, planar girds and so on. Not things that are too difficult to get, but they can take time. It took me a couple of months to get madstone boots on my THF barbarian simply because they would never drop when he was in the raid.

Anything that improves your strength or to-hit or increases your ability to confirm criticals.

Let's assume you've taken a +2 str tome at 1750 favor, you maxed str at creation and at each level up attrubute point, and you have a +6 str item.

You should have 30 str base and 40 str single raged, right?

Then your base to hit with a +5 weapon is:

16 BAB
+15 str
+5 weapon
------------
36
- 15 full PA without OTWF
------------------------
21
+1 rage potion/spell
+1 madstone rage
+1 haste
+4 greater heroism
-------------------
28
+1 double madstone (clicky plus on-hit effect)
+1-3 scourge choker
-------------------
30-32

The last two are difficult to maintain and come with some drawbacks.

Then, with the bloodstone you get an additional +6 to-hit when attempting to confirm criticals. This means that as long as you hit on a 7 or better, you'll always confirm a critical hit.

negative
02-28-2008, 04:47 PM
FYI, with GTWF, you now get the same number of main hand and off-hand attacks, 5 each for a total of 10.

http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combo_chain#Standing_still_2

Pyrothraxus
03-03-2008, 11:27 AM
Neg thanks for posting that link. Good info on alot of stuff that I was not aware of. Now as for AC requirements endgame. With low AC if Adamantine feat is not taken wouldnt a barb be taking mass amounts of dmg? Like at lvl 10ish when u spend a good chunk of time in gianthold Qs? If your doing a good job dealing damage you will pull your share of the hate and dont want to be an SP sponge or spend 75% of the time face down. At the same time I dont mind chugging some pots to help with the healing but I dont want to have to by a full stack every 3 quests either. Typically what AC will u have at these levels and what should i keep in mind while fighting at these levels with low AC?

Hadrian looks like ive got alot of items im gonna have to keep an eye out for. Heh and here I was just thinking about Deathnips XD

negative
03-03-2008, 03:00 PM
I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but it might make sence to take the Adamantine Body feat at character creation, and respec it out around levels 10-12. At low levels the extra AC will make a difference, but you'll stop seeing as much of a benifit after around level 10-12.

As far as being low AC in the end game:

- a lot of people use fearsome armor to great affect (though it does get annoying chasing those feared mobs down after a while).

- Bring a shield. Not for the AC, but for the damage reduction while shield block. Know when to turtle up when needed.

- Use the damage reduction boost

- Find a good intimtank and group with them

- Just play smart. A smart player will make the lack of armor less noticable. Let the other melee guys grab some aggro first. Even if you pull it away from them shortly, thats a few attacks less on you.

- And last but not least, give you cleric donations if you feel you're taking an excessive amount of damage. It will keep the heals coming.

That said, I might not be the best person to give advice on the topic, as I don't like to build my own characters that way. Personally, I don't think there is any reason you can't get a noticable amount of AC, even on a THF (though you might lose a little DPS). Though, on a barbarian, I will admit, there is less encouragement to do so after your down -4 AC from double raging.

boldarblood
03-03-2008, 07:43 PM
As far as being low AC in the end game:

- a lot of people use fearsome armor to great affect (though it does get annoying chasing those feared mobs down after a while).
.

Don't bother chasing them, unless it is a mob required to kill for completion. :)

Hadrian
03-04-2008, 10:24 AM
If you're a warforged, forget AC and just get a Docent of Defiance. The body feat is not worth the space it takes up past the first half of the level range.

Pyrothraxus
03-18-2008, 12:31 PM
So what makes a wep worth holding on to? What makes a wep an "Epic"? My basic understanding is if it has certain atributes for example Vorps, Paralyzing, Smithing, Desrupting, Wounding and/or Peircing weps? Kinda want to get a better understanding so that i dont NPC something that may seem worthless to me but is actually a sought after wep. Also does Keen stack with barb +crit range? or Improved Crit Feat? Same question for armors also. Which one do u typically hold on to for sale/trade? Stat improving items im assuming +5 and up are worth holding on to. Some clarifications would be great!. Thanks guys.

Blind_Skwerl
03-18-2008, 01:50 PM
ghghfghgf
Level 16 Neutral Good Warforged Male
(2 Fighter / 14 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 0


My only recommendation.... change the name. Sounds like a plat seller.:p

Pyrothraxus
03-18-2008, 02:50 PM
lol ill keep that in mind :)

Black_Knight
03-19-2008, 12:51 PM
I do play a pure 16 level WF barbarian! (THF)

I don't have good AC, no body feats but I do have the Docent of Defiance.
I also have a Fearsome docent for large group of mobs.
And a Greater Resist Docent of every type.
I switch as needed. For end-bosses, like Velah and the Pit Fiend, Defiance simply rocks with a DR 20.

I obviously use PA and all necessary chain of it.
I do have Madstone boots and double madstone, fully raged I can get my STR and CON to 44, so hitting stuff is a non-issue!
I also have a greataxes and greatswords of Greater Bane of almost all kinds (except halflings, I just think they are cute and make me laugh too much to bat around).

So you know I don't take any more damage than any other type of low AC barb.

To the clerics that say it's hard to heal WF I say this... If you can heal a dwarven barb for 600 hp and I get 70% that's still well over 400, plenty to keep me up. If you want to save SP, stop hitting WF with Neutralize Poison (extended). Also don't forget that UMD players and arcanes can hit you with reconstruction, so technically when you think about it, WF should be the less likely to go down!!! (UMD players and arcanes that carry Heal, should carry at the least a few reconstructions, I know I do). No other barb can claim to be healed/repaired by almost all other classes.

If you plan on making an effective barb, I say go for max damage, high DR, high crit range and damage, as a priority, the rest will fall into place.

Plan on using alot of pots and give repair wands and scrolls to any who will use them on you. (like all barbs should (cures in their cases if not WF)).

Beyond that enjoy the damage you will do!
I know I do when I hit over 200+ crit damage (yet I still cannot get my hands on a Bloodstone).

Peace!

Pyrothraxus
03-19-2008, 01:46 PM
I havent even really looked at DR enhancments or feats for barb. When I was making one barb i have posted ran into action point restrictions. Maxing out DR seems to pull away from overall dmg enahncement somewhere. If you maxed ur DR out which enhance did you pass up?

Black_Knight
03-20-2008, 08:04 AM
Well remember that barbarian DR and WF DR do not stack... So I only used the barb DR as this one progresses with your barb levels.
I currently am at DR 6/-, but I also use the Docent of Defiance on big end bosses or large groups of mobs like spiders, they hit often but not that hard... When the Defiance effect triggers I get a DR 20/- for 20 seconds, you'd be surprised how many mobs barely do over 20 damage, unless they crit (all you need to make sure they don't is a Heavy Fort item).

But you are right I concentrated on damage, if I take them down fast I still limit the amount of damage they do to me!!! :rolleyes:

Just don't neglect DR especially if you are going the low AC route.