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View Full Version : The Shroud: How to solve each puzzle in part 3.

eyepuppy
02-19-2008, 12:33 PM
This guide has been added to the compendium: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Shroud_Part_3

Hey guys! I know a bunch of you were asking how I solve these puzzles so fast every time, so I will fill you in on a little secret. There's a pretty simple algorithm for solving the puzzles in part 3.

Let's start with the 4x4 puzzle because it is cake! In the 4x4 puzzle, you have four rows of lights in four columns. You start by turning all the lights on the first row. To do this, you press the button right below the lights that are off in the first row. Continue doing this to row 2 and 3. That's it. The puzzle will be solved EVERY time.

In the 3x3 puzzle, there is a chance there will be a few lights left off after you chase down the lights. Based off the lights that are off in the bottom row, you will hit a certain combination of lights on the top row. Once you have hit all the lights that need hit on the top row, you will chase the lights down again until all the lights are lit. If all the lights are lit, then you hit the right combination and you have solved the puzzle. If you have lights lift over, then you hit the wrong combination.

The following chart has a list of all the possible combinations that you should see in a 3x3 puzzle after you chase down the lights. The black dots are considered off.

http://rob-meier.com/pictures/3x3.jpg

Now that you have the basics and an understanding of the puzzle algorithm, you can now master the 5x5 puzzle. You do the exact same thing you did in the 3x3 puzzle, except you have a new combination of lights. The following chart will tell you the combination of lights to hit in row one based on the lights that are lit in the bottom row. Once you’ve hit the appropriate lights, then you chase the lights down again for the solve! Piece of cake!

http://rob-meier.com/pictures/5x5.jpg

For Example:
In a 5x5 puzzle, say you chased down the lights and you were left with this combination in row 5 after all the other lights were on: Off, On, Off, Off, On. The chart says you need to hit light 5 on the top row. Once you hit that light, you chase the lights down and it will be solved. If not, then you messed up somewhere. If too many people are having problms with this, I will try to explain it a little better and maybe put up some better examples.

EDIT: I will try to get a solution made for the round puzzle, but I have only done it once. I have a pretty good idea how to solve it, but I just don't have enough practice at it to say for sure. I guess I'll try to sit down and iron it out after class today.

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-19-2008, 12:42 PM
Nice post!

I'm definitely using this method from now on for the 4x4 - but I think for the other ones I'd probably stick to using my solver :)

Garth

jmonty
02-19-2008, 02:08 PM
good work man.

what about rule number 2? :D

02-19-2008, 03:06 PM
Very coherent explanation, eyepuppy. I know there's faster ways (less steps) to solve the puzzle using solvers, but I like algorithms, too! Sure beats trial and error. :D

You do have two minor errors. You say, "the 4x4 and 3x3 are a little different" right after you finish explaining the 4x4s. And you have a set of 6 lights in your example, "off, on, off, off, on, on." I'm pretty sure you just need to drop the last 'on'. :) Again, great explanation!

eyepuppy
02-19-2008, 03:20 PM
Very coherent explanation, eyepuppy. I know there's faster ways (less steps) to solve the puzzle using solvers, but I like algorithms, too! Sure beats trial and error. :D

You do have two minor errors. You say, "the 4x4 and 3x3 are a little different" right after you finish explaining the 4x4s. And you have a set of 6 lights in your example, "off, on, off, off, on, on." I'm pretty sure you just need to drop the last 'on'. :) Again, great explanation!

Yes, the solver takes less moves, but more time to solve because you have to alt tab out, enter the info, go back in to check the puzzle, then alt tab to click solve, then hit your solution. This is just a pain unless you have 2 computers.

Also, the example I put up is an example of a 5x5 puzzle. I will edit and state that to avoid confusion. It's meant to give an example at how to use the charts.

trptim
02-19-2008, 07:32 PM
Great guide.
For 4x4, I tested it using the solver and it kept failing.
I then hit solve on those, and there were no solutions :D

So hopefully DDO has something in place to always have solutions, which the solver doesn't have

Crossing my fingers for 4x4 everytime, so I don't have to think

jjflanigan
02-19-2008, 07:49 PM
Great guide.
For 4x4, I tested it using the solver and it kept failing.
I then hit solve on those, and there were no solutions :D

So hopefully DDO has something in place to always have solutions, which the solver doesn't have

Crossing my fingers for 4x4 everytime, so I don't have to think

There are certain patterns that will get you into an "unsolvable state" -- if you look at the charts listed for the 5x5 it only lists out 7 of the possible layouts you can end up with for the bottom row. Any other row will result an "unsolvable" puzzle.

I've not run across an in game puzzle that resulted as unsolvable, so I think they have a set selection of patterns that they use rather than just completely random.

For the circle puzzle, it's a matter of chasing the lights down til you only have one left lit. At that point you simply select either of the adjacent tiles, then you'll have two sets of 3 that you can turn on in one click. The "light chasing" follows a different method since you have to alternate what you click to get things to cycle properly, but I'm trying to work out a way to get it into javascript to include in the solver.

Aesop
02-19-2008, 07:54 PM
Nicely done thanks

Aesop

trptim
02-19-2008, 08:05 PM
There are certain patterns that will get you into an "unsolvable state" -- if you look at the charts listed for the 5x5 it only lists out 7 of the possible layouts you can end up with for the bottom row. Any other row will result an "unsolvable" puzzle.

Yeah, was just trying to work out the 5x5 and forgot to check if the puzzle was unsolvable first, and came up with one of those missing end patterns :rolleyes:

Will be printing out these pictures, just in case I end up in the 3x3 or 5x5

Haven't seen the circle yet, so hopefully the hints will make sense.

Gol
02-19-2008, 08:47 PM
hey noobs, just use this

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/solver/vale_puzzle.html

:p

mgoldb2
02-20-2008, 07:03 AM
This the method I been using for awhile I actually posted it in Harncw thread but you explain it much better then I did. Your way actually slightly quicker in some situations because I was doing the composition states in separates passes rather then hitting multiple lights on top at once if those stats arose.

Inkblack
02-20-2008, 07:35 AM
For the ring puzzle:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r287/InkblackDDO/RingPuzzle.gif

Ink

02-20-2008, 07:49 AM
I'm diametrically opposed to using cheaters. There are many reasons for this.

The reasons are as follows:

Using a cheater is CHEATING. Cheat is in the name. How do you feel when someone is cheating you?
They tend to feed entitlement mentality. AKA I deserve to win all the time and should never be defeated. There's no way to learn from your mistakes if the cheater isn't allowing you to make mistakes.
They make you dependent. What will you do if someone hacks the cheat website and it's not there?
Cheaters will make your brain mushy and will likely lead to Alzheimers.*
There is no sense of adventure and therefore the victory is hollow. Whoo hoo! A computer solved the problem for you and you got some pretend stuff. Nice job.
If you were in any kind of modern competition you would be disqualified immediately.
You'll grow hair on your palms or go blind. Possibly both.

* = I made that up, but some studies have shown that having many neuro-pathways may prevent Alzheimers. When not solving puzzles and thinking you are not forming new neuro-pathways.

jjflanigan
02-20-2008, 08:05 AM
I'm diametrically opposed to using cheaters. There are many reasons for this.

The reasons are as follows:

Using a cheater is CHEATING. Cheat is in the name. How do you feel when someone is cheating you?
They tend to feed entitlement mentality. AKA I deserve to win all the time and should never be defeated. There's no way to learn from your mistakes if the cheater isn't allowing you to make mistakes.
They make you dependent. What will you do if someone hacks the cheat website and it's not there?
Cheaters will make your brain mushy and will likely lead to Alzheimers.*
There is no sense of adventure and therefore the victory is hollow. Whoo hoo! A computer solved the problem for you and you got some pretend stuff. Nice job.
If you were in any kind of modern competition you would be disqualified immediately.
You'll grow hair on your palms or go blind. Possibly both.

* = I made that up, but some studies have shown that having many neuro-pathways may prevent Alzheimers. When not solving puzzles and thinking you are not forming new neuro-pathways.

Actually, I am diametrically opposed to your opposition of using SOLVERS. There are many reasons for this:

They allow people who don't like doing puzzles to continue enjoying the aspects of the game they do enjoy
It is no different then using a calculator or even using excel for your doing spreadsheets rather than doing it by hand
It is no more "cheating" than looking at any info on this website that has any details or information about an aspect of the game
There is no sense of adventure and therefore the victory is hollow since this is a game anyway. Whoo hoo! You completed a puzzle in a game and you got some pretend stuff. Nice job.

There's no need to be all judgmental on people that don't like puzzles. They are playing an MMO, not Mastermind or Lights Out, etc. Perhaps they chose not to play those games because they don't enjoy them, but they do enjoy DDO?

02-20-2008, 08:22 AM
Actually, I am diametrically opposed to your opposition of using SOLVERS. There are many reasons for this:

They allow people who don't like doing puzzles to continue enjoying the aspects of the game they do enjoy
It is no different then using a calculator or even using excel for your doing spreadsheets rather than doing it by hand
It is no more "cheating" than looking at any info on this website that has any details or information about an aspect of the game
There is no sense of adventure and therefore the victory is hollow since this is a game anyway. Whoo hoo! You completed a puzzle in a game and you got some pretend stuff. Nice job.

There's no need to be all judgmental on people that don't like puzzles. They are playing an MMO, not Mastermind or Lights Out, etc. Perhaps they chose not to play those games because they don't enjoy them, but they do enjoy DDO?

If minimizing cheating by saying it's like using a calculator, this isn't real life, it's not a cheat program it's a "solver", or any other excuses make it easier on your conscience then go ahead and cheat. See if I care.

Eyepuppy has done everyone a huge service by showing that there is an easy way that doesn't involve cheating/solving using a computer instead of your brain. And then responses like just use the "solver" come up and it minimizes peoples efforts who are trying to make peoples lives a bit easier without having to cheat. Eyepuppy is giving you all the tools to solve the puzzles and all you have to do is learn the rules and apply that knowledge.

Wizzly_Bear
02-20-2008, 08:31 AM
Actually, I am diametrically opposed to your opposition of using SOLVERS. There are many reasons for this:

They allow people who don't like doing puzzles to continue enjoying the aspects of the game they do enjoy
It is no different then using a calculator or even using excel for your doing spreadsheets rather than doing it by hand
It is no more "cheating" than looking at any info on this website that has any details or information about an aspect of the game
There is no sense of adventure and therefore the victory is hollow since this is a game anyway. Whoo hoo! You completed a puzzle in a game and you got some pretend stuff. Nice job.
There's no need to be all judgmental on people that don't like puzzles. They are playing an MMO, not Mastermind or Lights Out, etc. Perhaps they chose not to play those games because they don't enjoy them, but they do enjoy DDO?

qft

also, its not like youre playing solo. if you cant do a puzzle then youre a drain on your party as somene else has to come do it for you. and what if multiple people in party cant do it. most parties im in i have to do 3-4 puzzles. it was fun for a little while figuring them out, but i just use cheaters now. i dont feel like solving the same old puzzle a billion times. same with the sr. fun figuring out the puzzle for a while, but now, i just cheat.

jjflanigan
02-20-2008, 08:32 AM
If minimizing cheating by saying it's like using a calculator, this isn't real life, it's not a cheat program it's a "solver", or any other excuses make it easier on your conscience then go ahead and cheat. See if I care.

Eyepuppy has done everyone a huge service by showing that there is an easy way that doesn't involve cheating/solving using a computer instead of your brain. And then responses like just use the "solver" come up and it minimizes peoples efforts who are trying to make peoples lives a bit easier without having to cheat. Eyepuppy is giving you all the tools to solve the puzzles and all you have to do is learn the rules and apply that knowledge.

Well...one thing to keep in mind...I'm the one who put the solver up. The solver uses the exact same logic as the manual solving, it just takes it a step further to rationalize the solution to the simplest state. Before you start calling me a cheater and saying I need to rationalize using it because I can't do it manually, you should really know the person to whom you are speaking. Computers and software are there to make our lives easier, I write programs to do things that I don't want to do manually. It's not cheating, it's called being smart.

*edit*

As a side note -- I think it's great that eyepuppy put this up there for those who do like to understand the concept behind a puzzle type game and want to do it themselves...however, those people are no "better" than those who use a solver.

Wizzly_Bear
02-20-2008, 08:33 AM
If minimizing cheating by saying it's like using a calculator, this isn't real life, it's not a cheat program it's a "solver", or any other excuses make it easier on your conscience then go ahead and cheat. See if I care.

Eyepuppy has done everyone a huge service by showing that there is an easy way that doesn't involve cheating/solving using a computer instead of your brain. And then responses like just use the "solver" come up and it minimizes peoples efforts who are trying to make peoples lives a bit easier without having to cheat. Eyepuppy is giving you all the tools to solve the puzzles and all you have to do is learn the rules and apply that knowledge.
eye's is just another solver. a more vague one, but still a solver. and if you didnt care you wouldnt be respondingto this ;)

Wizzly_Bear
02-20-2008, 08:35 AM
It's not cheating, it's called being smart.

yes, a smart person finds more efficient ways to do things.

Inkblack
02-20-2008, 08:40 AM
This is a useful thread. Please, let's keep it from becoming cube food.

Ink

02-20-2008, 09:05 AM
Well...one thing to keep in mind...I'm the one who put the solver up. The solver uses the exact same logic as the manual solving, it just takes it a step further to rationalize the solution to the simplest state. Before you start calling me a cheater and saying I need to rationalize using it because I can't do it manually, you should really know the person to whom you are speaking. Computers and software are there to make our lives easier, I write programs to do things that I don't want to do manually. It's not cheating, it's called being smart.

Sorry, but I've never said you were incapable of solving the puzzle with your brain. I also never directed my opinions on cheating at any specific person, but at everyone who cheats in general. If the shoe fits...

Writing software to automate work is not the same as writing software to automate winning. You've eliminated the possibility of failure in a game where the possibility of failure is designed in. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses that software to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. How is it different from aiming bots in FPS games? It's like saying, "I don't like aiming so I use an aiming bot" or "I'm not good at aiming so I use an aiming bot."

I, too, write software for a living. The software I've written keeps everyones credit card number encrypted so if they fall into the wrong hands they won't be usable. My software has automated the testing of electrical circuits in hearing aids so that people with hearing problems can hear better, and with a large amount of certainty that it will be nearly a perfect match to their hearing loss. The software I've written has automated grading of tests at colleges around the country. I guess I can't say that I've ever written software to automate winning at a game.

All solvers are more than likely a violation of rule 19 in the Dungeons and Dragons Online code of conduct.

19. You may not create, post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine.

02-20-2008, 09:16 AM
This is a useful thread. Please, let's keep it from becoming cube food.

Ink

I agree, however some of the posts are a violation of the cheating at the game rules where they said things like thou shalt not use aiming bots and the like. (Paraphrasing).

Your post and eyepuppy's posts have given people a way to understand the puzzles without actually doing the work for them.

jjflanigan
02-20-2008, 09:17 AM
Sorry, but I've never said you were incapable of solving the puzzle with your brain. I also never directed my opinions on cheating at any specific person, but at everyone who cheats in general. If the shoe fits...

Writing software to automate work is not the same as writing software to automate winning. You've eliminated the possibility of failure in a game where the possibility of failure is designed in. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses that software to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. How is it different from aiming bots in FPS games? It's like saying, "I don't like aiming so I use an aiming bot" or "I'm not good at aiming so I use an aiming bot."

How is using an automated solver ANY different than using the "Cheat sheets" provided in this thread? If you use the sheets, which you've stated is an ok and "non-cheating" thing to do...you've eliminated all chance of failure. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses the cheat sheets to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. It's like saying "I'm doing the exact same thing the software does, in the exact same pattern and have removed all chance of failure, but because I'm doing it myself, it's different" -- If you don't like using solvers, that's fine -- but there's no difference between using a "cheat sheet" solver and a software designed "solver"

One *very important* fact that you gloss over -- you aren't "winning the game" you are bypassing a puzzle in the game. It has no impact on DDO itself whether or not you use the solver. Nice job making the personal attacks at me,though, by stating that your software is "more important" than what the software I write...especially when you have no idea what type of software I write for a living.

bobbryan2
02-20-2008, 09:21 AM
Sorry, but I've never said you were incapable of solving the puzzle with your brain. I also never directed my opinions on cheating at any specific person, but at everyone who cheats in general. If the shoe fits...

Writing software to automate work is not the same as writing software to automate winning. You've eliminated the possibility of failure in a game where the possibility of failure is designed in. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses that software to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. How is it different from aiming bots in FPS games? It's like saying, "I don't like aiming so I use an aiming bot" or "I'm not good at aiming so I use an aiming bot."

I, too, write software for a living. The software I've written keeps everyones credit card number encrypted so if they fall into the wrong hands they won't be usable. My software has automated the testing of electrical circuits in hearing aids so that people with hearing problems can hear better, and with a large amount of certainty that it will be nearly a perfect match to their hearing loss. The software I've written has automated grading of tests at colleges around the country. I guess I can't say that I've ever written software to automate winning at a game.

All solvers are more than likely a violation of rule 18 in the Dungeons and Dragons Online code of conduct.

18. You may not create, post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine.

Using cheat sheets and solver programs are functionally equivalent. I don't see how you can be for calculators but against graphing calculators.

Oreg
02-20-2008, 09:32 AM
If minimizing cheating by saying it's like using a calculator, this isn't real life, it's not a cheat program it's a "solver", or any other excuses make it easier on your conscience then go ahead and cheat. See if I care.

Eyepuppy has done everyone a huge service by showing that there is an easy way that doesn't involve cheating/solving using a computer instead of your brain. And then responses like just use the "solver" come up and it minimizes peoples efforts who are trying to make peoples lives a bit easier without having to cheat. Eyepuppy is giving you all the tools to solve the puzzles and all you have to do is learn the rules and apply that knowledge.

You seem pretty miffed by this so it must be affecting your gameplay that people are using them. Oh yeah - you are getting two extra chests. Wait....that makes you angry?.....huh?

If it makes you feel any better (ie more superior) I have seen at least a dozen people in part 3 that couldn't solve it using the solver. They had to have people come help them. What do we do with them?

Anyways, good thread up till the rant. I hope it stays open.

Wizzly_Bear
02-20-2008, 09:56 AM
19. You may not create, post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine.

hmm, reckon i better not use that character planner thing anymore then huh :rolleyes:

02-20-2008, 10:33 AM
How is using an automated solver ANY different than using the "Cheat sheets" provided in this thread? If you use the sheets, which you've stated is an ok and "non-cheating" thing to do...you've eliminated all chance of failure. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses the cheat sheets to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. It's like saying "I'm doing the exact same thing the software does, in the exact same pattern and have removed all chance of failure, but because I'm doing it myself, it's different" -- If you don't like using solvers, that's fine -- but there's no difference between using a "cheat sheet" solver and a software designed "solver"

One *very important* fact that you gloss over -- you aren't "winning the game" you are bypassing a puzzle in the game. It has no impact on DDO itself whether or not you use the solver. Nice job making the personal attacks at me,though, by stating that your software is "more important" than what the software I write...especially when you have no idea what type of software I write for a living.

The difference between using an algorithm that someone has taught you and using software to applying an algorithm you don't even comprehend is completely different.

Okay, I'll concede that you aren't winning the game. Big Deal! If it makes you feel good then do it man. I'd like to see anybody use a "solver" in any casino in Vegas and find out what happens. Try convincing the casino that you aren't cheating. Just explain to them how smart you are for bypassing the losing combinations in the slot machine. Tell them how it makes life so much easier. Perhaps they won't take you for a tour of the Nevada desert and perhaps you'll only be banned from the casino. I bet you'd see things a lot differently when the stakes are much higher.

People who don't cheat aren't more perfect or without any faults. This might not even be about morality, maybe it's just about having some pride in everything you do. If you take pride in using the solvers then great. I guess I just expect more and have higher expectations and want a good challenge even when I'm not equipped for it. If failing once in a while hurts that much then the link that jj posted is just right for you. Enjoy.

jjflanigan
02-20-2008, 10:44 AM
The difference between using an algorithm that someone has taught you and using software to applying an algorithm you don't even comprehend is completely different.

Okay, I'll concede that you aren't winning the game. Big Deal! If it makes you feel good then do it man. I'd like to see anybody use a "solver" in any casino in Vegas and find out what happens. Try convincing the casino that you aren't cheating. Just explain to them how smart you are for bypassing the losing combinations in the slot machine. Tell them how it makes life so much easier. Perhaps they won't take you for a tour of the Nevada desert and perhaps you'll only be banned from the casino. I bet you'd see things a lot differently when the stakes are much higher.

People who don't cheat aren't more perfect or without any faults. This might not even be about morality, maybe it's just about having some pride in everything you do. If you take pride in using the solvers then great. I guess I just expect more and have higher expectations and want a good challenge even when I'm not equipped for it. If failing once in a while hurts that much then the link that jj posted is just right for you. Enjoy.

I use a solver every time I go to a casino -- it's called counting cards. Same difference, it's using something to give yourself an unfair advantage. Either way, you've made up your mind that you are better because you don't use a solver and are tossing about backhanded insults, so there's no point in degrading this thread any further. There are multiple methods to solve the puzzles, use the one that you want to use and enjoy the game how you want to enjoy it.

aldan
02-20-2008, 10:55 AM
Nice post!

I'm definitely using this method from now on for the 4x4 - but I think for the other ones I'd probably stick to using my solver :)

Garth

You dont need the solver, this is easy. I posted the same thing right after my first raid back a few weeks ago, this looks like the same thread just put into the strategy guide.

You have to turn all the lights on for the puzzle to work. Its real easy.

Laith
02-20-2008, 10:55 AM
Using cheat sheets and solver programs are functionally equivalent.Better not look at posted map, strategy, build, recipe, or static loot threads either.
All sorts of unfair advantages to be gained on these here forums.

Thanks for the thread eye. applied one for lights out i found a while back, and it worked pretty well.

Ultimately though, i just don't like the game (lights out) all that much, so i use the solver. Didn't like it in Rest for the Restless or The Pit either, even when it was super-easy.
I really like mastermind though... so i do that with my own algorithm every time.

I LOVE that they keep putting puzzles in... but the fact is, every player isn't going to get and enjoy every puzzle in the game.

aldan
02-20-2008, 10:58 AM
Who out there has the time to learn all this garbage. I dont, I love when uber guilds finish first and give me the solves, saves me time and I like it. I enjoy the experience of the quest but dont need the satisfation of "being the first" to have a good time.

Do whatever you do to have fun and ignore the rest.

02-20-2008, 11:16 AM
Back on topic. These two typos still exist in the OP.
You do have two minor errors.
1) You say, "the 4x4 and 3x3 are a little different" right after you finish explaining the 4x4s "solved EVERY time."
2) And you have a set of 6 lights in your example, "off, on, off, off, on, on." I'm pretty sure you just need to drop the last 'on'. :) Again, great explanation!

liamfrancais
02-20-2008, 01:56 PM
I'm diametrically opposed to using cheaters. There are many reasons for this.

The reasons are as follows:

Using a cheater is CHEATING. Cheat is in the name. How do you feel when someone is cheating you?
They tend to feed entitlement mentality. AKA I deserve to win all the time and should never be defeated. There's no way to learn from your mistakes if the cheater isn't allowing you to make mistakes.
They make you dependent. What will you do if someone hacks the cheat website and it's not there?
Cheaters will make your brain mushy and will likely lead to Alzheimers.*
There is no sense of adventure and therefore the victory is hollow. Whoo hoo! A computer solved the problem for you and you got some pretend stuff. Nice job.
If you were in any kind of modern competition you would be disqualified immediately.
You'll grow hair on your palms or go blind. Possibly both.

* = I made that up, but some studies have shown that having many neuro-pathways may prevent Alzheimers. When not solving puzzles and thinking you are not forming new neuro-pathways.

Thats correct but using it to practice is good, that way the pretty wall don't get you, that was a really nice touch by the way.

eyepuppy
02-20-2008, 03:11 PM
Back on topic. These two typos still exist in the OP.

Bah, I fixed them. In my defense though, the second that was not really a typo. I was merely saying that the 4x4 and 3x3 puzzles were similar to solve. That was true and it makes sense to say after I posted how to solve the 4x4 puzzle so people could make a connection with the 3x3.

Anyway, back on to the "solver" debate. I don't like solvers myself. I use this method, but I figured out the method and solution (well most of it). This is the same method I used to solve these puzzles when my mother gave me my first lights out game when I was almost 10. I only found 4 of the 5x5 combinations. There are somewhere around 30 combinations of lights that could be left on the bottom row, so I started down the line and figured out which combinations worked with what light sets. It took forever (I was doing it on paper during analog class!). After I found 4 of them, I went online to see if anyone else had an algorithm that would solve lights out like this. I was fortunate to fine that there were many other sources of people that had the same solution. I was also happy to learn that there were only 3 more possibilities for solutions. The 3x3 puzzles I had to find on my own. This leaves you with 7 solutions for 5x5 and 7 solutions for 3x3.

Now, calling this a solver is I guess true in a sense. I fell that people using this method will at least be using their brain more than if they are using the solver. If I posted the algorithm and just told people to hit random spaces on the top row, most people would just give up and use the solver. When people actually use this method, they will begin to see patterns and understand how the puzzle works. I hope so at least!

In my opinion, if you use this method without using the cheat sheet, then it's not a solver. Once you use the cheat sheet though, it becomes a solver. I would still prefer people to use this method because you are at least using your brain more than pressing on random spots.

As a side note: Sorry if anyone already posted this. I don't check the forums much. This is probably only my 4th post ever! I checked to see if their was a guide in the user guide section. I didn't see one off hand so I posted one. Sorry for any double posting, but this should have been where you put it so people could fine it :)

Caelan
02-21-2008, 12:15 PM
* = I made that up, but some studies have shown that having many neuro-pathways may prevent Alzheimers. When not solving puzzles and thinking you are not forming new neuro-pathways.

this is slightly incorrect. you do not, generally, create new neuro-pathways as an adult. (yes, there are some traumatic circumstances where this has happened, but it does not happen as you describe.) BUT, practicing puzzles will help you keep the neuro-pathways you already have. as infants we create millions and millions of them. as we grow, our brain decides which ones to preserve based on usage. the more and longer you use them, the more and longer you will keep them, and the less likely you are to develop ailments such as Alzheimers.

jjflanigan
02-21-2008, 02:02 PM
Regardless of how people feel about this, I have updated the solver to include logic for 1-pass solving the circle puzzle. The logic should be sound and has worked on all my tests, but let me know if you have any issues

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/solver/vale_puzzle.html

Aesop
02-21-2008, 04:39 PM
ok the 4x4 puzle is pretty easy

Circle is just repetative

3x3 I'm ok on though I'm missinga little something that would make my mind wrap around it a little faster

5x5 is where I need a little help. How do you figure out the pattern without the cheat sheet. I'd like to be able to do this from sight and not alt+tab

:D

Aesop

Grond
02-22-2008, 02:51 PM
Nice work eyepuppy!

For the round puzzle, I try to get the smallest number of lit lights adjacent to each other, ending up with 0, 1, or 2. If it's 2, one up from either side of the two and you're done. If it's 1, hit one beside the lit one and solve as for two. If none, then hit all 8.

The nice thing about this pattern working from the top down is you don't have to worry about accidentally bumping parts you've already worked on, since you don't need to jump across them. It's also alot easier to talk someone through it when you're standing on the other side of a forcefield. :)

Rowanheal
02-22-2008, 03:13 PM
I have a confession to make...

I can't solve puzzles...

I can't even do the simple little ones like in goodblades for goodness sakes...

They look like geometry and calculus and stuff like that and it makes my brain hurt and my eyes cross...

So being as I love Stormreach, I am massively all kinds of glad some of you love puzzles...and can figure them out... and then help me learn them...

Hey you can still be an honor student and hate math if you get a tutor...

So thanks for tutoring me in Stormreach puzzles 102.

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

trptim
02-23-2008, 11:18 AM
Regardless of how people feel about this, I have updated the solver to include logic for 1-pass solving the circle puzzle. The logic should be sound and has worked on all my tests, but let me know if you have any issues

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/solver/vale_puzzle.html

Graphical Glitch
If you click on a square outside the circle, it will start filling in other lights, up to a 4x4 square, even though the tests and functionality of the circle remain.

jjflanigan
02-23-2008, 12:40 PM
Graphical Glitch
If you click on a square outside the circle, it will start filling in other lights, up to a 4x4 square, even though the tests and functionality of the circle remain.

Ooops, all fixed.

eyepuppy
02-26-2008, 12:31 PM
Nice work eyepuppy!

For the round puzzle, I try to get the smallest number of lit lights adjacent to each other, ending up with 0, 1, or 2. If it's 2, one up from either side of the two and you're done. If it's 1, hit one beside the lit one and solve as for two. If none, then hit all 8.

The nice thing about this pattern working from the top down is you don't have to worry about accidentally bumping parts you've already worked on, since you don't need to jump across them. It's also alot easier to talk someone through it when you're standing on the other side of a forcefield. :)

Bah, you beat me to the punch! That's how I've been solving it for a while, but I have been looting the heck out of this for some long, I forgot to come on here and let you guys know how to solve it.

I try to light up just one, then I hit the space beside the lit one, causing only 2 to be lit. Then it's cake from there.

Someone asked how to figure out how to solve without using the cheat sheet. Well, it's really complicated and I don't really care to explain right now :P Basically, there are 4 or 5 "dead" spaces on the puzzles that will appear. If you avoid lighting those spaces and work around then, you should be able to solve the puzzles in one pass.

Grond
02-27-2008, 07:46 AM
Bah, you beat me to the punch! That's how I've been solving it for a while, but I have been looting the heck out of this for some long, I forgot to come on here and let you guys know how to solve it.

I try to light up just one, then I hit the space beside the lit one, causing only 2 to be lit. Then it's cake from there.

Someone asked how to figure out how to solve without using the cheat sheet. Well, it's really complicated and I don't really care to explain right now :P Basically, there are 4 or 5 "dead" spaces on the puzzles that will appear. If you avoid lighting those spaces and work around then, you should be able to solve the puzzles in one pass.

I spent a day or so grinding the math on the 5x5s, most done while auto attacking the portals in part 1. Then I came to post it and found you'd posted it 2-3 days before. :rolleyes: If I had just read the forums a bit more closely, I wouldn't have had to dust off that rusty math major. :D

itsmezed72
04-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Hey guys! I know a bunch of you were asking how I solve these puzzles so fast every time, so I will fill you in on a little secret. There's a pretty simple algorithm for solving the puzzles in part 3.

Let's start with the 4x4 puzzle because it is cake! In the 4x4 puzzle, you have four rows of lights in four columns. You start by turning all the lights on the first row. To do this, you press the button right below the lights that are off in the first row. Continue doing this to row 2 and 3. That's it. The puzzle will be solved EVERY time.

In the 3x3 puzzle, there is a chance there will be a few lights left off after you chase down the lights. Based off the lights that are off in the bottom row, you will hit a certain combination of lights on the top row. Once you have hit all the lights that need hit on the top row, you will chase the lights down again until all the lights are lit. If all the lights are lit, then you hit the right combination and you have solved the puzzle. If you have lights lift over, then you hit the wrong combination.

Call me dim, but 'press the buttons BELOW the lights in the first row'? And what does 'chase down the lights' mean?

eyepuppy
04-19-2008, 11:13 AM
Call me dim, but 'press the buttons BELOW the lights in the first row'? And what does 'chase down the lights' mean?

Sorry for the late reply, but I don't check the forums very often.

You start by looking at the puzzle from any side. It doesn't matter what side you use, it only matters that you use that side as the point of reference. Now that you have a side you will work from, the side farthest away from you is row 1, followed by row 2 and so on. In row one, you will see a series of lights on or off. The object is to light all the lights in the top row. To do this, you just need to press on the button in the row below row 1 where the lights are off. For example, if the lights were "on, off, on, on, off," you would hit buttons 2 and 5 in row 2. This turns on all the lights in row 1. Now that you have row 1 all lit up, you work on row 2 (this is chasing the lights down). If the lights in row two were, "off, on, off, off, off," Then you would hit buttons 1, 3, 4, and 5. This will turn all the lights in part 2 on. You will do the same for rows 3 and 4 then. Once you get to the fifth row, you need to consult the chart to figure out what buttons to press in order to solve the puzzle. For instance, if lights 1, 2, and 3 are lit on the bottom row, all you need to hit in the top row is button 2 and solve the puzzle again.

It's kind of complicated, but it works a lot faster than the solver once you have everything memorized. Hope this helps.

eyepuppy
01-30-2009, 01:23 PM
bump, just to keep this on the new boards :)

eyepuppy
02-04-2009, 01:44 AM

Hope to see you guys in game soon!

Riggs
02-15-2009, 03:58 PM
Yay for making puzzles easier.

I hate puzzles, I dont play DDO to need to run puzzles - if I LIKED puzzles I would play other games with puzzles in them - like Tomb Raider or something.

So whether it is a solver, or a method - awesome. DDO can spend more time making monster AI better and more challenging and less time finding new puzzles to annoy puzzle challenged players with.

Life is enough of a puzzle, DDO is for bashing bad guys. (Well for me anyway)

Dont feed the trolls by responding to them.

*edit - to quote Wobert "Solvers are for the weak!"

Toronus
02-20-2009, 11:00 AM
Please correct me if I'm wrong here but... D&D wasn't/isn't a pen and paper game? So by using our computers vs. our imaginations we are all doomed to going senile and eat pudding? And unless you plug your modem into yerrr BUTT and use your "Superior puzzle solving intellect" to respond to this without the use of a computer, you will have used a tool/cheat to do so! Dude get a life!

Anderei
03-23-2010, 11:25 AM
I see the circular is yet missing in this otherwise great OP (and IMHO a bit boring discussion). Definietly going to printout or handcopy-paste the 3x3 and 5x5 bottom->top sheets. I don't like to switch application or use the ingame browser, but a nice human-do-able algorithmn maybe with a piece of sheet is perfect.

At the circle trying your best with basic intuitiveness, you always come easily to a point where only one is unlight, when you aren't lucky and is solves outright:

(Yellow is the point jumped upon)

First, jump on the unlight one:

* *
* *
* *
* o

Now continue at either one of the unlight to light it, again pretty intuative, Ill take the bottom left clockwise, other way around works just as well:

* *
* *
* o
o *

* *
o *
o o
* *

o *
* *
* o
* *

* o
* o
* o
* *

* *
* *
* *
* *

ArichValtrahn
03-23-2010, 11:39 AM
For the ring puzzle:

Thanks for that.

Figures.. I read up and practiced the 3x3, 4x4 and 5x5.. and I load in the circular puzzle room. I stared at the stupid thing dumbfounded.

Thrudh
03-23-2010, 11:55 AM
Good guide OP

In the 3x3 puzzle, there is a chance there will be a few lights left off after you chase down the lights. Based off the lights that are off in the bottom row, you will hit a certain combination of lights on the top row. Once you have hit all the lights that need hit on the top row, you will chase the lights down again until all the lights are lit.

FYI... The 3x3s are even easier than this... Solve down... if it doesn't solve then solve the other direction... if it doesn't solve, then solve the other direction again... and it will definitely solve by then.

So you light up the first row, then the second row... doesn't matter what the last row looks like... Without touching the last row, make it the top row in your mind and light it up by stepping on the second row tiles... then light up the second row by stepping on the third row tiles... It may just solve right there, but it doesn't just solve the opposite direction again. Again, without touching the third row, make it the first row in your mind, and light up by jumping on the second row tiles... solve down...

Now that I read that, it sounds more complicated than the OP, but if you can figure out what I meant, it's somewhat faster than looking at a chart... Just solve down, didn't work? Solve the other way. Still didn't work? Solve the first way again... 3x3s always solve after 3 passes at it...

I still use a chart like the OP posted for 5x5s though...

Thrudh
03-23-2010, 11:59 AM
5x5 is where I need a little help. How do you figure out the pattern without the cheat sheet. I'd like to be able to do this from sight and not alt+tab

Print out the cheat-sheet... There! I solved your alt-tab problem!

Anderei
03-23-2010, 12:01 PM
FYI... The 3x3s are even easier than this... Solve down... if it doesn't solve then solve the other direction... if it doesn't solve, then solve the other direction again... and it will definitely solve by then.

Way cool!

iFreak
06-25-2010, 05:33 PM
Sorry, but I've never said you were incapable of solving the puzzle with your brain. I also never directed my opinions on cheating at any specific person, but at everyone who cheats in general. If the shoe fits...

Writing software to automate work is not the same as writing software to automate winning. You've eliminated the possibility of failure in a game where the possibility of failure is designed in. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses that software to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. How is it different from aiming bots in FPS games? It's like saying, "I don't like aiming so I use an aiming bot" or "I'm not good at aiming so I use an aiming bot."

I, too, write software for a living. The software I've written keeps everyones credit card number encrypted so if they fall into the wrong hands they won't be usable. My software has automated the testing of electrical circuits in hearing aids so that people with hearing problems can hear better, and with a large amount of certainty that it will be nearly a perfect match to their hearing loss. The software I've written has automated grading of tests at colleges around the country. I guess I can't say that I've ever written software to automate winning at a game.

All solvers are more than likely a violation of rule 19 in the Dungeons and Dragons Online code of conduct.

19. You may not create, post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine.

Why do u make software to keep other ppls credit cards encrypted let them figure it out for themselves. By the same note you are cheating by using the mathematics that another person figured out, you should have figured it out on you're own.

I have a question? Did u figure out how to build the car u drive or did u buy it? Did u figure out how to drive on ur own or did some1 pass on there knowledge to you?

This solver is one person passing on their knowledge do others so they can benefit from it just as u have from the world inventors and great thinkers.

Look at yourself before u point a finger.

sabastion01
08-21-2010, 08:41 PM
This guide has been added to the compendium: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Shroud_Part_3

Hey guys! I know a bunch of you were asking how I solve these puzzles so fast every time, so I will fill you in on a little secret. There's a pretty simple algorithm for solving the puzzles in part 3.

Let's start with the 4x4 puzzle because it is cake! In the 4x4 puzzle, you have four rows of lights in four columns. You start by turning all the lights on the first row. To do this, you press the button right below the lights that are off in the first row. Continue doing this to row 2 and 3. That's it. The puzzle will be solved EVERY time.

In the 3x3 puzzle, there is a chance there will be a few lights left off after you chase down the lights. Based off the lights that are off in the bottom row, you will hit a certain combination of lights on the top row. Once you have hit all the lights that need hit on the top row, you will chase the lights down again until all the lights are lit. If all the lights are lit, then you hit the right combination and you have solved the puzzle. If you have lights lift over, then you hit the wrong combination.

The following chart has a list of all the possible combinations that you should see in a 3x3 puzzle after you chase down the lights. The black dots are considered off.

http://rob-meier.com/pictures/3x3.jpg

Now that you have the basics and an understanding of the puzzle algorithm, you can now master the 5x5 puzzle. You do the exact same thing you did in the 3x3 puzzle, except you have a new combination of lights. The following chart will tell you the combination of lights to hit in row one based on the lights that are lit in the bottom row. Once youâ€™ve hit the appropriate lights, then you chase the lights down again for the solve! Piece of cake!

http://rob-meier.com/pictures/5x5.jpg

For Example:
In a 5x5 puzzle, say you chased down the lights and you were left with this combination in row 5 after all the other lights were on: Off, On, Off, Off, On. The chart says you need to hit light 5 on the top row. Once you hit that light, you chase the lights down and it will be solved. If not, then you messed up somewhere. If too many people are having problms with this, I will try to explain it a little better and maybe put up some better examples.

EDIT: I will try to get a solution made for the round puzzle, but I have only done it once. I have a pretty good idea how to solve it, but I just don't have enough practice at it to say for sure. I guess I'll try to sit down and iron it out after class today.

excellent job...has given me new found understanding and confidence in solving shroud puzzles when group completion depends so much on speed...I don't care what the idiot, role-playing, perma-death, over critical person says.

If you would include a 6x6 you would have scored a 10 out of a 1-10...for now ill have to give you a 9.0

AaronB
09-04-2010, 08:24 AM
Hey, I've been testing out this method on the perfectweb puzzle solver, and the 4x4's don't seem to work. Does the actual puzzle in the Shroud only give combinations that can be solved by chasing the lights down in one pass, or something?

The 3x3 works great, the 5x5 works (just occasionally getting to a combination on the bottom row that you haven't listed, then I just hit more until it does), and I've got the circular down. The method I use is to get to where there's one unlit light, hit it, then pick a direction (clockwise or counter). Skip over one light, hit the next 5, then hit the middle of the 3 unlit lights. Works consistantly in 9-11 steps depending on initial setup.

Thanks for your work on this; I think I've got it figured out except the 4x4 and 6x6.

guardianx2009
03-07-2011, 10:36 PM
Bumping this thread and also contributing a solution for 5x5 without use of a chart.

Here's how to solve 5x5 without chart.
1. Chase the lights like you would with 3x3 or 4x4 down to the last row.
2. Looking at the last row, from left to right, find the first light who's light next to it is unlit.
IF there's no light next to it, find the previous light. (see example 5)
3. This is the light you hit on the top row.
Repeat until solved.

Example:

Example1:
Last Row: 1 * 3 * 5
Hit top: 1

Example2:
Last Row: 1 2 * * *
Hit top: 2

Example3:
Last Row: * * 3 * *
Hit top: 3

Example4:
Last Row: * 2 * * 5
Hit top: 2

Example5:
Last Row: * * * 4 5
Hit top: 4

Example6:
Last Row: * 2 3 4 *
Hit top: 4

NaturalMystik
03-08-2011, 03:20 PM
Thanks for the tip!

Although I don't get example 6. It seems to me the answer should be 4? As 4 is the first lit one that has an unlit to the right of it. Maybe I'm not getting the pattern right?

guardianx2009
03-08-2011, 03:52 PM
Thanks for the tip!

Although I don't get example 6. It seems to me the answer should be 4? As 4 is the first lit one that has an unlit to the right of it. Maybe I'm not getting the pattern right?

You're right, it's a typo on my part. I'll update the original post.

Thanks!

NaturalMystik
03-08-2011, 03:54 PM
Sweet thanks! Never shall I have to give up on a 5x5 again :)

krud
03-08-2011, 04:19 PM
Practice 5x5 here (http://www.haar.clara.co.uk/Lights/JS/lout.html)

it's lights out, though. You have to turn them all off, instead of on, but it's the same algorithm.

ArgentMage
04-07-2011, 09:08 AM
I've been using this guide for the better part of a year, and it's been great!

I did notice that there was one pattern that showed up a few times on the 5x5
that isn't covered in the original guide. I even saw it a couple of times in the
website game. So, here's a revised 5x5 map with an 8th row added that includes
this "missing" state.

http://www.argentmage.net/5x5_8rows.jpg

stille_nacht
04-07-2011, 09:10 AM
or or www.perfectweb.org

:D, but good guide

Habreno
04-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Concerning the last 5x5 combination. I am not quite understanding it; when I have tried it in solvers I have not been able to get a reliable result. Can this combination be explained to me? It is the one missing from the chart on the OP.

ArgentMage
04-21-2011, 02:45 PM
Concerning the last 5x5 combination. I am not quite understanding it; when I have tried it in solvers I have not been able to get a reliable result. Can this combination be explained to me? It is the one missing from the chart on the OP.

Since I haven't seen it very often, my guess is that this pattern typically appears
when you make a "mistake" solving down. So that might explain why the solvers
don't get it. But since I haven't tried the solver, I can't say for sure. But using
the flow-down method, it does work.

Habreno
04-22-2011, 12:33 AM
I've been using this guide for the better part of a year, and it's been great!

I did notice that there was one pattern that showed up a few times on the 5x5
that isn't covered in the original guide. I even saw it a couple of times in the
website game. So, here's a revised 5x5 map with an 8th row added that includes
this "missing" state.

http://www.dasilvas.net/5x5_8rows.jpg

I understand why the 8th row does not work. It's a non-solve. It's a mirror image of 2,4 out that doesn't solve out. You get a full unlit row.

However, I see what you're going at. Working through a solver, here's the combinations I ended up coming up with:

With 1,5 unlit on bottom: 1,2 OR 4,5
2,4 unlit: 1,2,3 OR 3,4,5 OR 1,4 OR 2,5
1,2,3 : 2 OR 3,4
3,4,5 : 4 OR 2,3
1,3,4 : 5 OR 1,3
2,3,5 : 1 OR 3,5
1,2,4,5: 3

Thank you for this thread which showed me how to do these puzzles very effectively; the list there should be comprehensive for the 5x5's.

Sir_Kermit
05-15-2011, 06:38 AM
I find solving down much faster and more reliable than using the solver on perfectweb.
(I'm pretty good at jumping to spots, but still accidently hit tiles that I'm not supposed to.)

I did spend hours playing/practicing with the solver on perfect web though. :)
(If you do decide to play/practice with the solver, I suggest checking to make sure you working on a puzzle that can be solved.
You can do this by resizing your browser window so that it doesn't show the answer when you click the solve button, then click the solve button.
The program will tell you if the puzzle can't be solved.
I spent waaaaay too much time trying to solve puzzles that couldn't be solved, and thinking "dang, am I really that stupid?")

I made a forced perspective version of the original post and want to share it.
(It's my way of putting into pictures what eyepuppy has explained with words)

Here's the link to full explanation with all the pictures:

Here's the prettier (and possibly easier to use) version of the 5 x 5 chart.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc492/wishwellwillowsong/5x5cheatsheetwithforcedperspective1.jpg

Thanks again to eyepuppy and jjflanigan.
Cleary I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.

Sir Kermit