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Quarion
02-18-2008, 10:18 AM
Weekly Development Activities

This week's edition is an extra meaty, double issue! Quarion will be out of town next week on business, so there will be no WDA next week. (BE NICE TO TOLERO!)

The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in the Anniversary Update 6.1
A "Report Harassment" button has been added to the mail UI. Selecting a letter and reporting it will also delete all mail from the sender.
Clicking on a highlighted players name in the chat box will now open a context menu giving you the following options: Tell, Party Invite, Guild Invite, Add Friend, Squelch, Unsquelch, and Report Harassment.
The minimum level requirement for using the green steel raid weapons has been increased to 12.
The Deepwood Sniper enhancement no longer says can be used under water.
Items placed in bags will now display their background along with the icon all of the time.
New Spell: Panacea
Cleric, 4
Channels powerful positive energy into a target to wipe away afflictions, restores 1d8 hit points +1 per caster level (max +20), and removes temporary ability damage and the conditions blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feeble minded, insanity, nauseated, and poisoned. Against undead this spell will damage 1d8 hit points +1 per caster level (max +20) Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.
NEW The pvp matching UI will now close if you are in a party that is converted to a raid, or if you are invited into a raid group.
NEW In the Vault of Night, Haywire's voice is no longer bound on acquire and will drop on death or leaving the dungeon.
NEW Previously, when you leveled up while wearing an item that granted you the toughness feat (Minos Legens helm, for example), your HP gained from leveling would be reported incorrectly. This has been fixed.
NEW Previously, getting hit repeatedly by the Black Abbot's "encase" ability would intermittently cause some other effects to be stuck on you permanently (staying through resting, death, etc, removable only by logout/login). This should no longer happen.
NEW When your character has effects which increase your charisma active, logging out and then back in, will no longer change your remaining "Turn Undead Attempts".
NEW There have been multiple improvements to Logitech G15 Keyboard support, including:
The LCD Display will no longer display SP for non-casters
It will now display temporary hit points
They will no longer display inaccuracies when your HP changes as a result of your con bonus changing.
NEW The agents of the twelve who have been studying the shroud have recently report a shift in the 13th moon. They speculate the Moon of Death’s influence will wan in the northwest part of the valley.
NEW Insightful Reflexes and Force of Personality feats previously required that you logout and login to take effect; now they take effect immediately.
NEW Transmuting weapons should gain mithril damage in addition to magic damage.
NEW The invading Shavarath portal keepers found in the shroud now function properly. Failing to kill a portal keeper quickly will result in quest failure. (Previously a Known Issue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134225))
NEW Vista players will no longer need to specify a port of 0 to work around chat problems.
NEW The lesser Dragonmark of warding and the lesser Dragonmark of making had incorrect uses per day; they now start at two rather than three, as per the tooltip.
NEW The following loading screen tips have been updated to reflect recent changes.

"Tip #61: High level clerics can cast the Raise Dead spell, which will return you to life with a few hit points."
"Tip #62: When you die on an adventure you can use a Resurrection shrine (marked with a flame symbol) to come back to life."
"Tip #199: Using the /death command while you are at 1 or more hp will kill your character and immediately send your spirit to your bind point. If you are at less than 1 hit point, /death will kill your character but won't release you."
"Tip #200: When you die, any non-stacking items you have equipped take some damage."
"Tip #201: Dragonshard Fragments can be combined at a Stone of Change if you place a large enough number of them into the device."
"Tip #202: Eldritch Devices usually require a power source. On failed recipe attempts, the power source is usually consumed but the rest of your materials will generally remain intact."
"Tip #203: Death is a traumatizing experience. When you die, you will be affected by resurrection sickness that goes away over time."
"Tip #204: Rest shrines reset five minutes after use on Solo difficulty, and fifteen minutes after use on Normal."
"Tip #205: Bound items never take permanent damage when repairing. You can bind an item you own using Khyber Dragonshard Fragments at the Stone of Change at the base of the Twelve's tower or next to the bank in the Marketplace."
"Tip #206: Devils are lawful evil and tend to dislike silver. Demons are chaotic evil and tend to dislike cold iron."
NEW In Twilight Canyon, the way to the upper levels will now only open for players who speak to Paetus after he has been rescued.
NEW The collectibles in The Shroud now have descriptions
NEW The crimson foot spider shepherds and heralds have been fixed. They can now cast their full range of spells and can fight properly instead of just standing motionless and casting buff spells periodically.
NEW In Ritiual Sacrifice, If you kill Ramak Orenah before the objective to do so appears, you won't break your quest anymore.
NEW Removed a troublesome wraith from Ghost of Perdition that was having physics trouble with melee attacks.
NEW You can now use potions of lesser restoration while raging.
NEW The following green steel raid loot effects have been changed as follows. Any items that already have these effects will update to the new ones automatically:
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 5% now absorb 10%.
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 10% now absorb 15%.
Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.
Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, and Icy Blast now have their proper elemental particle effects. In addition these effects now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.
The Aspect of Water effect now allows you to cast the new cleric spell "Panacea".
NEW Ring of Troll's Regeneration description has been updated to mention that it heals via positive energy.
NEW It is no longer possible to break some quests by having a pet trigger a monster entry (example: triggering the Gatekeeper in Gianthold Tor).
NEW Randomly generated treasure accessories (necklaces, bracers, boots, rings, cloaks, etc.) that have a plus equivalence of +6 (which typically require minlevel 13) should now get their increased durability and hardness. On average, they will have a hardness of 8 and a durability of 70. The items that have already been generated without the increases cannot get the increases retroactively, but can still get a boost to their hardness and durability by going through the adamantine ritual at the Stone of Change.
NEW The General Vendor in Meridia, Belline Toulia, has learned the secrets required to repair dragonscale armor. She does not demand any special components to repair such armor, but does charge a premium for her repairs as though she were an expert smith. The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in Module 7.

General

Monks have been added to the game as a new playable class!Skills, Feats, & Abilities
New Feats
The following iconic monk feats have been added to the game:
Purity of Body – You are immune to all forms of disease, including magical or supernatural diseases.
Wholeness of Body – Permits a monk to regain health over time.
Diamond Body – You have mastered your metabolism, and are immune to poison.
Timeless Body – Your body and soul are your own, and you do not create spawn effects should you fall in combat with the undead. Enhancements
New Enhancements
NEW Halfling Cunning IV
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack rolls when flanking an enemy, bringing the total increase to 4.
NEW Halfling Guile I
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 3 Halfling, Halfling Cunning I, 7 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain +2 to your sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff.
NEW Halfling Guile II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 7 Halfling, Halfling Cunning II, Halfling Guile I, 22 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 4, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 2.
NEW Halfling Guile III
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 11 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, Halfling Guile II, 37 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 6, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 3.
NEW Halfling Guile IV
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Halfling, Halfling Cunning IV, Halfling Guile III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 8, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 4.
NEW Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 8 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.
NEW Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Rogue, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit with your sneak attacks. General Enhancement Changes
Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.
NEW The costs of Halfling Cunning I - III and Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I - III have been reduced to 1 action point per level.
NEW The bonus granted by Rogue Sneak Attack Training has been increased to 3 points of sneak attack damage per level.
NEW Rogue Way of the Assassin I now grants a passive +4 bonus to sneak attack damage in addition to its other effects.
NEW The effect of Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Rogue Way of the Assassin I active abilities, and Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I "Showtime" now lasts 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
NEW Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.Items
NEW Bursting weapons now continue to increase their damage if they "burst" on an attack that has greater than a x4 damage multiplier.
NEW Several new chain shirt appearances have been added to the treasure tables.7.1

ChildrenofBodom
02-18-2008, 10:21 AM
First

VERY nice that you can use lesser restore pots while raging.

NICE JOB on the blasts! 4d6 on a 20 was definately not very good.

By chance could you tell us exactly how much damage it the blasts will do?



NEW Bursting weapons now continue to increase their damage if they "burst" on an attack that has greater than a x4 damage multiplier.
NEW Several new chain shirt appearances have been added to the treasure tables.[/LIST]7.1

O_O Higher multiplier then x4?!

Aspenor
02-18-2008, 10:23 AM
First

I would have been first....but I'm not a noob :p

Gol
02-18-2008, 10:24 AM
Any word on getting favor for the Shroud, yet?

rimble
02-18-2008, 10:25 AM
NEW Transmuting weapons should gain mithril damage in addition to magic damage.

Huh? Does anything have DR x/mithril? Mithril Defenders maybe?

Wulf_Ratbane
02-18-2008, 10:25 AM
NEW Several new chain shirt appearances have been added to the treasure tables.[/LIST]7.1

This is all pretty exciting, but I just wanted to say that the game is in such good shape now that THIS is probably my favorite entry!

RavenStormclaw
02-18-2008, 10:26 AM
first...ninjaed...darn

8 ap for paladin bulwark of good 4...seems a bit steep.

Cavalier
02-18-2008, 10:28 AM
NEW Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 8 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.

Um, by additional, do you mean it will stack with the +3 from Bulwark of Good III and grant +7 AC total or will it grant +4 total?

If the latter, 8 APs for a +1 to AC is ridiculous.

Emanon67
02-18-2008, 10:28 AM
When is the projected release of Mod 7. I have been waiting since beginning to bring my p&p monk into DDO.

Other wise nice additions.

Aeneas
02-18-2008, 10:33 AM
halfling sneak attacks just got obnoxiously better.

+8 from halfling guile, +8 for a +5 backstab weapon, and +12 from rogue sneak attack training = +26 per backstab before any dice are thrown - that's more than some classes do in total damage on a swing.

Happy day to you, Rameses.

DareDelvis
02-18-2008, 10:33 AM
Amongst the stuff I like:

-Barbarians can finally use Lesser Retore Potions when raging!!
-The changes to Sneak attack training cost and damage
-Way of the assassin became more appealing as well

But:
No fix for the slippery mind/defensive roll :(

Still thanks!

Montrose
02-18-2008, 10:34 AM
first...ninjaed...darn

8 ap for paladin bulwark of good 4...seems a bit steep.

"A bit steep" is an understatement. 8AP for +1AC places this into the "Never in a million years" category.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 10:34 AM
Wow... the Rogue love for Mod 7.... I think I am going to feint :eek:

Now I wish my Rogue was a Halfling not Human.. DOH!!!!..Wow Sneak attack DMg is going to get crazy high....

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 10:35 AM
Some nice bug fixes in here.


NEW The agents of the twelve who have been studying the shroud have recently report a shift in the 13th moon. They speculate the Moon of Death’s influence will wan in the northwest part of the valley.

Interesting... anyone have any speculations as to what this means?


NEW The lesser Dragonmark of warding and the lesser Dragonmark of making had incorrect uses per day; they now start at two rather than three, as per the tooltip.

Not that big a deal, I guess, but did the Mark of Warding really need to be down-tweaked?


NEW The collectibles in The Shroud now have descriptions

What about the crafting tutorial items?


Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

Is good burst going to be doing standard pure good damage on non-criticals? I thought that was the problem, not the on-critical effect. (Presumably Evil Burst is experiencing the same problems?)


The Aspect of Water effect now allows you to cast the new cleric spell "Panacea".

That makes much more sense.


The items that have already been generated without the increases cannot get the increases retroactively

That's a shame.


NEW The General Vendor in Meridia, Belline Toulia, has learned the secrets required to repair dragonscale armor. She does not demand any special components to repair such armor, but does charge a premium for her repairs as though she were an expert smith.

A nice compromise.


NEW Bursting weapons now continue to increase their damage if they "burst" on an attack that has greater than a x4 damage multiplier.

Is this even currently possible? If so, how?

Coldin
02-18-2008, 10:36 AM
Nice changes to the Sneak Attack enhancements. I always thought the Accuracy enhancements were a little expensive at 2,4,6 progression considering they only worked when a rogue has sneak attack and not 24/7 like the racial bonuses. With the change in cost, I'm pretty sure I'll be picking up Accuracy III now which was always way too pricey to just really justify taking it.

It's nice that the Damage enhancements have been increased slightly, but they still feel a little low. I'm just not sure how much of a difference an extra +1 damage per enhancement will really boost sneak attack damage much. I have a feeling though that Halfling Way of the Assassin rogues will be dealing an absurd amount of sneak attack damage after Mod 7.

About the Blast effects change for the Shroud crafting...is that saying that Blast effects will damage on any crit plus damage from a bursting effect from a previous upgrade plus even more extra damage on a Crit?

Mhykke
02-18-2008, 10:37 AM
Still waiting for paladin love news, and I'm guessing 8 ap points for +1 to ac isn't going to cut it.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 10:37 AM
Huh? Does anything have DR x/mithril? Mithril Defenders maybe?

I think it's just a "We should cover all our bases" thing.

I don't think anything in the game currently has DR /mithral. (I would hope not, since we don't get mithral weapons!)

binnsr
02-18-2008, 10:38 AM
Some nice bug fixes in here.
Interesting... anyone have any speculations as to what this means?


Everyone /deaths to transport from the Twelve (northwest corner entrance to the vale) to Meridia .. My guess is that there'll be a transport or something just inside the Vale that'll take you to Meridia..

juniorpfactors
02-18-2008, 10:39 AM
NEW The following green steel raid loot effects have been changed as follows. Any items that already have these effects will update to the new ones automatically:
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 5% now absorb 10%.
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 10% now absorb 15%.
Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.
Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, and Icy Blast now have their proper elemental particle effects. In addition these effects now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.


edit

binnsr
02-18-2008, 10:39 AM
Is it the Rogue Love Mod, or the Halfling Rogue Love Mod? :(

rimble
02-18-2008, 10:40 AM
halfling sneak attacks just got obnoxiously better.

+8 from halfling guile, +8 for a +5 backstab weapon, and +12 from rogue sneak attack training = +26 per backstab before any dice are thrown - that's more than some classes do in total damage on a swing.

Yeah, I wonder if we'll be seeing alot more Improved Feint...being able to straight jack things in the face is pretty awesome, though I don't have any particular experience on how well that Feat works.

Ustice
02-18-2008, 10:40 AM
When is the projected release of Mod 7. I have been waiting since beginning to bring my p&p monk into DDO.
Given that they are now on a quarterly release schedule, we are looking at April/May before we see this live. One can hope for sooner, but its too early to speculate.

ChildrenofBodom
02-18-2008, 10:42 AM
MT, where do you see that the currently generated items won't be changed retoactively? What items is that takling about?

Aeneas
02-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Yeah, I wonder if we'll be seeing alot more Improved Feint...being able to straight jack things in the face is pretty awesome, though I don't have any particular experience on how well that Feat works.

yeah, dust off your bravo sword, midgets :p I have a few rogues but never really played around with imp feint or bluff much (for some reason i like them to have all the aggro), but i could see a high charisma, high str halfling with all sneak attack enhancements, way of the assassin, max bluff, imp feint and a nice backstab weapon/seeker rapier combo doing insane damage and doing it often.

+10 seeker rapier of deception in one hand, ele burst rapier of backstab 5 in the other perhaps. throw in power attack feat for flavor. set skin tone to green and name him yoda.

Strumpoo
02-18-2008, 10:46 AM
NEW Bursting weapons now continue to increase their damage if they "burst" on an attack that has greater than a x4 damage multiplier.


Huh?

Could you please explain this?

Are there going to be new weapons with x5 and up crit multipliers coming??? :eek:


Or maybe new barb crit enhancements??

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 10:46 AM
Everyone /deaths to transport from the Twelve (northwest corner entrance to the vale) to Meridia .. My guess is that there'll be a transport or something just inside the Vale that'll take you to Meridia..

Interesting thought.


MT, where do you see that the currently generated items won't be changed retoactively? What items is that takling about?

It's under the clothing/jewelry hardness and durability bit.

Full quote is:


Randomly generated treasure accessories (necklaces, bracers, boots, rings, cloaks, etc.) that have a plus equivalence of +6 (which typically require minlevel 13) should now get their increased durability and hardness. On average, they will have a hardness of 8 and a durability of 70. The items that have already been generated without the increases cannot get the increases retroactively, but can still get a boost to their hardness and durability by going through the adamantine ritual at the Stone of Change.

Coldin
02-18-2008, 10:48 AM
Is it the Rogue Love Mod, or the Halfling Rogue Love Mod? :(

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic so far. Halfling's preferred class is rogue, and at least they're finally putting in some more roguish enhancements to represent that.

I wonder though, what's the status on "Way of" IIs, IIIs (if those will ever come about), and more Iron Companions?

And how about a change to Bluff / Imp. Feint so that's actually somewhat useful? ;)

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 10:48 AM
Huh?

Could you please explain this?

The only thing I can think of is Deepwood Sniper which gives a +1 to crit multiplier, but I don't think there are any x4 ranged weapons. (Unless I'm forgetting something.)

Eladrin
02-18-2008, 10:48 AM
RE: x5+ Crit Multiplier bursts

We're covering our bases. The Deepwood Sniper enhancement allows you to increase your crit threat multiplier by one, and I expect that tech to be used elsewhere in the future.


Still waiting for paladin love news, and I'm guessing 8 ap points for +1 to ac isn't going to cut it.
There's also the bit about Divine Righteousness now lasting a minute. Most of the enhancement work thus far has been Monk/Rogue related, though. You'll see more in future WDA's.

Ganak
02-18-2008, 10:52 AM
NEW Ring of Troll's Regeneration description has been updated to mention that it heals via positive energy.


Bringing these back to the loot table?

ChildrenofBodom
02-18-2008, 10:52 AM
Glad they change the water + water clicky. Nice job Turbine!

ChildrenofBodom
02-18-2008, 10:59 AM
Eldarin/Quarion, will the pancea clicky on the water + water weapons be able to be used on other people then yourself? WOuld be awesome to use that clicky to remove feeblemind from casters and stuf flike that.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 11:02 AM
Eldarin/Quarion, will the pancea clicky on the water + water weapons be able to be used on other people then yourself? WOuld be awesome to use that clicky to remove feeblemind from casters and stuf flike that.

Panacea is not, in D&D, a self-only spell.

Strumpoo
02-18-2008, 11:02 AM
RE: x5+ Crit Multiplier bursts

We're covering our bases. The Deepwood Sniper enhancement allows you to increase your crit threat multiplier by one, and I expect that tech to be used elsewhere in the future.


There's also the bit about Divine Righteousness now lasting a minute. Most of the enhancement work thus far has been Monk/Rogue related, though. You'll see more in future WDA's.

Ahhh.. Thanks for the explanation.


I see pally's Smite Evil being enhanced like deep wood's sniper, in the future. hehe.

All pallys will now be using heavy picks to get their "Super Smites of Pure Goodiness" off, hehe.

Aodh
02-18-2008, 11:03 AM
Everyone /deaths to transport from the Twelve (northwest corner entrance to the vale) to Meridia .. My guess is that there'll be a transport or something just inside the Vale that'll take you to Meridia..

I hope it's outside the vale. You can't even enter the vale if you've joined a raid group and are trying to get to meridia. (other than /death)

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 11:04 AM
I hope it's outside the vale. You can't even enter the vale if you've joined a raid group and are trying to get to meridia. (other than /death)

Restless Isles syndrome. >.<

ChildrenofBodom
02-18-2008, 11:07 AM
Panacea is not, in D&D, a self-only spell.

I know that, but some items like the ring of the earth, have clickies that are self-only even though the spell casted regularly is not self only.

Shade
02-18-2008, 11:09 AM
Weekly Development Activities

The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in the Anniversary Update 6.1
NEW Transmuting weapons should gain mithril damage in addition to magic damage.
NEW The following loading screen tips have been updated to reflect recent changes.

"Tip #206: Devils are lawful evil and tend to dislike silver. Demons are chaotic evil and tend to dislike cold iron."
NEW You can now use potions of lesser restoration while raging.ooo, thankyou thankyou thankyou thankyou for fixing the lesser restore potions finally. Been asking for this since forever. Oh btw we have the same problem with remove paralysys potions, not that it matters much.. but are they fixed too?

Hmm tip #206 is kinda misleading as the current Devil DR is not setup to need silver.. All devils dr is 10-20/Good currently, nothing else needed. Except ofcourse the pit friend arraetrikos does need good + silver... But really all devils should have that DR.

Mithral damage? whats that, we don't have mithral weapons?

Beherit_Baphomar
02-18-2008, 11:13 AM
/signed on the lesser restore pots issue.

I cant tell ya how happy that makes my lil barbarian.

TYTYTY!

binnsr
02-18-2008, 11:15 AM
NEW You can now use potions of lesser restoration while raging.
so .. does this mean that lesser restore doesn't break CE now, too?

cm2_supernova
02-18-2008, 11:18 AM
RE: x5+ Crit Multiplier bursts


There's also the bit about Divine Righteousness now lasting a minute. Most of the enhancement work thus far has been Monk/Rogue related, though. You'll see more in future WDA's.

Thank God...I was seriously hoping there was going to be more pally love than that

Spectralist
02-18-2008, 11:21 AM
Mithral damage? whats that, we don't have mithral weapons?

I wish, my 6 strength halflings could use some lighter weapons!

Turial
02-18-2008, 11:32 AM
NEW Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:

Cost: 8 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.


I thought enhancements were going to cap at 6 points so that players dont have to spend multiple levels working towards a single enhancement.

Eladrin
02-18-2008, 11:33 AM
I thought enhancements were going to cap at 6 points so that players dont have to spend multiple levels working towards a single enhancement.
That was the primary reason we didn't create Bulwark of Good IV previously, but decided to make it available in case someone really wanted it.

Cruzer
02-18-2008, 11:45 AM
NEW You can now use potions of lesser restoration while raging.


HURRAY! The new chain shirts skins is a welcomed addition too. :)

Mad_Bombardier
02-18-2008, 11:49 AM
Hmm tip #206 is kinda misleading as the current Devil DR is not setup to need silver.. All devils dr is 10-20/Good currently, nothing else needed. Except ofcourse the pit friend arraetrikos does need good + silver... But really all devils should have that DR.Barbazu, Bezekira, and Orthons properly have DR/Silver or Good. Arraetrikos (as a Pit Fiend) properly has DR/Silver and Good.
And as we all know, DDO Demons (Reavers, Renders, Flensers, Mariliths) have DR/Cold Iron and Good. IIRC for DDO demons, only Jariliths are DR/Good. Perhaps the tip should read:

#206 "Tip #206: Devils are lawful evil and tend to dislike silver or good aligned weapons. Demons are chaotic evil and tend to dislike cold iron and good aligned weapons."

Kerr
02-18-2008, 11:51 AM
NEW Randomly generated treasure accessories (necklaces, bracers, boots, rings, cloaks, etc.) that have a plus equivalence of +6 (which typically require minlevel 13) should now get their increased durability and hardness. On average, they will have a hardness of 8 and a durability of 70. The items that have already been generated without the increases cannot get the increases retroactively, but can still get a boost to their hardness and durability by going through the adamantine ritual at the Stone of Change.

Unacceptable.

Unacceptable not because you aren't retroactively fixing issue, unacceptable because the adamantine ritual is PROHIBITIVELY expensive. Where is the upped drop rate of Khyber shards? Where is the fix to allow Wizards to keep the Soul Gems they create with Trap the Soul instead of letting a thief ninja loot them? Where is the fix to prevent the Khyber shard from being wasted if the spell fails?

Unacceptable.

wamjratl1
02-18-2008, 11:55 AM
[U][B]Weekly Development Activities

[COLOR=Red]NEW Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.[/LIST]Items[LIST]

Glad to see this. Possibly a very smart work around to the trap DC issue. Now those of us who specced for traps may actually have a chance to save against damage. Thanks!!

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 11:57 AM
Did we really need to drive the Pure to MC rogue saves further apart? You guys(TURBINE) fabricate this "system" and now seem to be eliminating anyone with less than 10 levels of rogue from making any saves on elite. Where the **** are our Multiclass enhancements? Yeah, rogue love my ass. Pureclass for trapsmith or dont even bother its starting to feel like. Lees D&D more MMO every update.

UtherSRG
02-18-2008, 11:58 AM
Barbazu, Bezekira, and Orthons properly have DR/Silver or Good. Arraetrikos (as a Pit Fiend) properly has DR/Silver and Good.
And as we all know, DDO Demons (Reavers, Renders, Flensers, Mariliths) have DR/Cold Iron and Good. IIRC for DDO demons, only Jariliths are DR/Good. Perhaps the tip should read:

#206 "Tip #206: Devils are lawful evil and tend to dislike silver or good aligned weapons. Demons are chaotic evil and tend to dislike cold iron and good aligned weapons."

"And" is appropriate in both cases. Devils don't like silver weapons, and they don't like good weapons. However, Demons' dislike is weaker, so it takes more of what they don't like to hurt them. (Actually, the causality is reversed in my statements, but the point is there....)

Ok... I'll rephrase it...
Devils are hurt by silver weapons, and they are hurt by good weapons. Demons are hurt by weapons that are good and cold iron. Demons dislike of good weapons is lesser than Devils' dislike.

EinarMal
02-18-2008, 12:00 PM
Did we really need to drive the Pure to MC rogue saves further apart? You guys(TURBINE) fabricate this "system" and now seem to be eliminating anyone with less than 10 levels of rogue from making any saves on elite. Where the **** are our Multiclass enhancements? Yeah, rogue love my ass. Pureclass for trapsmith or dont even bother its starting to feel like. Lees D&D more MMO every update.

QFT, whining pure rogue cookie cutter dex builds ftw....

UtherSRG
02-18-2008, 12:00 PM
"And" is appropriate in both cases. Devils don't like silver weapons, and they don't like good weapons. However, Demons' dislike is weaker, so it takes more of what they don't like to hurt them. (Actually, the causality is reversed in my statements, but the point is there....)

Ok... I'll rephrase it...
Devils are hurt by silver weapons, and they are hurt by good weapons. Demons are hurt by weapons that are good and cold iron. Demons dislike of good weapons is lesser than Devils' dislike.

And I'm quibbling for no good purpose except that I'm bored at work today.... Please ignore me. :D

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 12:01 PM
QFT, whining pure rogue cookie cutter dex builds ftw....

AMEN!!:)

Kerr
02-18-2008, 12:01 PM
Did we really need to drive the Pure to MC rogue saves further apart? You guys(TURBINE) fabricate this "system" and now seem to be eliminating anyone with less than 10 levels of rogue from making any saves on elite. Where the **** are our Multiclass enhancements? Yeah, rogue love my ass. Pureclass for trapsmith or dont even bother its starting to feel like. Lees D&D more MMO every update.

Excuse me:

Pure classed characters should always be superior to multiclassed.

That is all.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 12:03 PM
But really all devils should have that DR.

No, like there are demons with DR X/Good or Cold Iron there are Devils with DR X/Good or Silver.

The tip is still probably accurate (though I haven't tested) as you should be able to bypass most devils DR with non-good weapons if they're silver instead.

EinarMal
02-18-2008, 12:03 PM
Excuse me:

Pure classed characters should always be superior to multiclassed.

That is all.

Excuse me:

You are wrong....

That is all....

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 12:08 PM
Excuse me:

Pure classed characters should always be superior to multiclassed.

That is all.

You clearly have no real knowledge of D&D 3.5. A little better? Maybe. But to eliminate(thats what I feel they are trying to do) any but the same ol dex based pure rogues from having any shot at making save...?

This is simply DUMBING down D&D, so unimaginative MMO players dont feel slighted with their cookie cutter dex based trapmonkies. Sorry if I am mistaking you for the MMO crowd, you could just be one of those stuck in AD&D mode... Like Turbines staff apparently

Namelessone
02-18-2008, 12:09 PM
NEW Randomly generated treasure accessories (necklaces, bracers, boots, rings, cloaks, etc.) that have a plus equivalence of +6 (which typically require minlevel 13) should now get their increased durability and hardness. On average, they will have a hardness of 8 and a durability of 70. The items that have already been generated without the increases cannot get the increases retroactively, but can still get a boost to their hardness and durability by going through the adamantine ritual at the Stone of Change.

I am glad to hear this bug is being fixed.

Is it possible to greatly (and by greatly I mean a lot) increase the amount of Khyber Shards that are being dropped. I have yet to pull more than 250 total on all my characters for the Adamantine Ritual?

Ustice
02-18-2008, 12:09 PM
I have a solution for the whole "can't get to Meridia" thing... Open it up to raid groups. Sometimes its hard to get enough people to do the Shroud. It would be nice if we could at least run around the Vale while we wait. I would also suggest that the Orchard, and maybe some of the others (all of the explorer areas) be opened to raid groups too, for similar reasons.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 12:10 PM
Where is the fix to prevent the Khyber shard from being wasted if the spell fails?

This would actually be a good addition that I'd like to see.

It makes sense that the spell wouldn't consume the shard unless the soul is actually trapped inside of it.

Please make this change.


Excuse me:

You are wrong....

That is all....

Not exactly. He left off a qualifier:

Pure class characters should always be better at the thing their class is good at than multiclass characters are at that same thing.

Thus, pure rogues should be better at skill-based things (notably, traps) than multiclassed rogues are. This is because a multiclassed rogue gets other benefits to offset this.

Impaqt
02-18-2008, 12:12 PM
We havent befun tosee the complaining on Trap DC's Every Trap with a DC of 50 or Higher right now is Bugged and doesnt do damage.... (Except on a 1)

Wait till they fix the traps and we'll see another wave of Trap DC Complaints...

+2-+4 more Trap Save isnt ging to help much..... Even some pure rogues are 15-20 points low right now

Paly CHR Save Boost! FTW.

Kerr
02-18-2008, 12:14 PM
Not exactly. He left off a qualifier:

Pure class characters should always be better at the thing their class is good at than multiclass characters are at that same thing.

Thus, pure rogues should be better at skill-based things (notably, traps) than multiclassed rogues are. This is because a multiclassed rogue gets other benefits to offset this.

Which is what I meant [eaten by cube NOM NOM NOM]

EinarMal
02-18-2008, 12:16 PM
Not exactly. He left off a qualifier:

Pure class characters should always be better at the thing their class is good at than multiclass characters are at that same thing.

Thus, pure rogues should be better at skill-based things (notably, traps) than multiclassed rogues are. This is because a multiclassed rogue gets other benefits to offset this.

They are better, the enhancement system (again) is expanding that to absurd proportions as usual....they just added another +4 reflex gap (on top of the +4 gap they already invented with enhancements) to justify the stupid high save DCs for traps on elite.

Good luck for anyone with a "measly" reflex save in the low 30's lol :rolleyes:

Pure rogues should be better at traps for the following reason (class benefits). They buy skills at 1:1 instead of 2:1 and have trap sense and improved evasion. They don't need to add more on top of that.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 12:17 PM
We havent befun tosee the complaining on Trap DC's Every Trap with a DC of 50 or Higher right now is Bugged and doesnt do damage.... (Except on a 1)

Wait till they fix the traps and we'll see another wave of Trap DC Complaints...

+2-+4 more Trap Save isnt ging to help much..... Even some pure rogues are 15-20 points low right now

Paly CHR Save Boost! FTW.

Yeah, +2-4 MORE, making it 4-8 more than some MC builds. Im starting to think the DCs are right where they planned them. The big rogue love for the mod was for pure rogues only.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 12:18 PM
Pure rogues should be better at traps for the following reason (class benefits). They buy skills at 1:1 instead of 2:1 and have trap sense and improved evasion. They don't need to add more on top of that.


QFT. Simple numeric elimination... but hey heres Insightful Reflexes.;)lol

Tolero
02-18-2008, 12:19 PM
Gang, this is not the way to start your week off with me...

On topic, sans personal attacks plz

Mad_Bombardier
02-18-2008, 12:24 PM
"And" is appropriate in both cases. Devils don't like silver weapons, and they don't like good weapons. However, Demons' dislike is weaker, so it takes more of what they don't like to hurt them. (Actually, the causality is reversed in my statements, but the point is there....)

Ok... I'll rephrase it...
Devils are hurt by silver weapons, and they are hurt by good weapons. Demons are hurt by weapons that are good and cold iron. Demons dislike of good weapons is lesser than Devils' dislike.How about "and/or" for both? Covers all our bases for lesser and greater devils and demons (except for Tharaak Hounds. grumble, grumble, stupid Chaotic Outsider demons...). :D

Bradik_Losdar
02-18-2008, 12:26 PM
I have a solution for the whole "can't get to Meridia" thing... Open it up to raid groups. Sometimes its hard to get enough people to do the Shroud. It would be nice if we could at least run around the Vale while we wait. I would also suggest that the Orchard, and maybe some of the others (all of the explorer areas) be opened to raid groups too, for similar reasons.

Yes indeed - good suggestion.

I sure hope the cryptic "death moon in northwest valley" reference does NOT mean they are putting a teleport person/thing just inside the gates of the Vale. What we really need (other than the quote above) is someone in the Twelve, like maybe just outside the front door to the tower, who will teleport you to Meridia after you have been there once and talked to the Grandmaster (ala the Tangleroot/Splinterskull system). That would dramatically cut Stormreach's suicide rate down.

Having to run up the hill in the Twelve everytime, zone into the Vale, and then wait for a teleport loading screen would almost completely defeat the purpose of having a teleport person inside the Vale gates - see what I mean? I'll continue to /death over that anyday!

Kerr
02-18-2008, 12:27 PM
Pure rogues should be better at traps for the following reason (class benefits). They buy skills at 1:1 instead of 2:1 and have trap sense and improved evasion. They don't need to add more on top of that.

Fact is a person who spends their entire life working in one particular field should always be better at that field than a person who "dabbles" with it. A Pure Class Rogue should be able to glide through traps, while a character with just two levels should be getting the Fernia kicked out of them.

Not that I agree with the way they've implimented this with DCs as high as they selected, but with everything else inflated, they had to.

Marcsin
02-18-2008, 12:29 PM
Some nice bug fixes in here.



NEW The agents of the twelve who have been studying the shroud have recently report a shift in the 13th moon. They speculate the Moon of Death’s influence will wan in the northwest part of the valley.

Interesting... anyone have any speculations as to what this means?



My guess is it fixes the requirement to have to dimension door at end of quests, walk out the front door and then recall back to meridia. So now we'd be able to double-recall back to Meridia (if that's where you started from going into the quest)

Coldin
02-18-2008, 12:34 PM
NEW The agents of the twelve who have been studying the shroud have recently report a shift in the 13th moon. They speculate the Moon of Death’s influence will wan in the northwest part of the valley.

Wait a sec, that note about the moon of death waning. It's talking about the shroud, not the Vale. Which section is the NW part? This might mean that you'll no longer be sent to the penalty box upon death.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 12:35 PM
Yeah, +2-4 MORE, making it 4-8 more than some MC builds.

But still not that much more than a rogue multiclass with 2 levels of paladin...

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 12:35 PM
Wait a sec, that note about the moon of death waning. It's talking about the shroud, not the Vale. Which section is the NW part? This might mean that you'll no longer be sent to the penalty box upon death.

Yeah, that's actually what I thought at first, and why I asked. I haven't run the raid enough yet to know which part it is.

Kerr
02-18-2008, 12:38 PM
Yeah, that's actually what I thought at first, and why I asked. I haven't run the raid enough yet to know which part it is.

I think that's the PacMan side.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 12:41 PM
Fact is a person who spends their entire life working in one particular field should always be better at that field than a person who "dabbles" with it. A Pure Class Rogue should be able to glide through traps, while a character with just two levels should be getting the Fernia kicked out of them.

Not that I agree with the way they've implimented this with DCs as high as they selected, but with everything else inflated, they had to.

My wiz15/rog3 has disabled AT LEAST as many traps as your rog(w/e) He has used his magic and sacrificed much more than you in the pusuit of such... but all the sudden I just cant anymore...thats why we have cross class skills, thats what 3.5 is about, making w/e character you want to do w/e you want them to. Stop thinking that your class make up is all that matters, this isnt AD&D. Stop thinking that because I have only 3 levels of rogue im just a dabbler, thats not the way it works in 3.5, I ve done exactly the same amout of trapsmithing as you.

Fact is trapsmithing has just been "adjusted" so only pure/near pure have a shot at elite. Dumbed down, nothing more.

QuantumFX
02-18-2008, 12:42 PM
QFT. Simple numeric elimination... but hey heres Insightful Reflexes.;)lol

Two words to fix this problem: Tactile Trapsmith

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 12:42 PM
But still not that much more than a rogue multiclass with 2 levels of paladin...

Your point?

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 12:43 PM
Your point?

That it's not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be.

gpk
02-18-2008, 12:43 PM
-Great new for the Dragonscale armors! Any chance of getting Jaidene in Zawabi's Refuge to repair these armor too?

-1 minute Divine Righteousness, I can't say it's very exciting. I 'm testing divine righteousness atm and really I'm only finding it marginally useful when trying to grab aggro off a boss with large crits (from a Dathnip or SoS, a smite crit if lucky).

-8 Action point Bulwark of Good 4, ouch!
2 levels worth of action point for 1 more AC is very painful. Wouldn't a Paladin Armor mastery 1&2 make more sense for 2/4 APs? Say available later than a fighter would get it?
Please reconsider the cost of this enhancement line.

Is there really no way to squeeze in some long awaited pally only spells into this patch?
The lack of some simple spell compendium and srd spells and feats/enh are really hurting in this evil rich/high HP mob mod.

Furthermore the lack of Bless Weapon to me is most apparent in this mod thus far. Could Bless Weapon functionality not be simulated via a cheap enhancement?
Bless Weapon, min lev 4, 2 AP cost, every weapon wielded is good aligned and you get +10 to confirm criticals.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 12:46 PM
That it's not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be.

We're only working with a D20 here MT, these made up numbers added with the legit class feat numbers ARE in fact a big deal. You are wrong.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 12:47 PM
Is there really no way to squeeze in some long awaited pally only spells into this patch?

Here's hoping! My new paladin wants some nice spells.

Kerr
02-18-2008, 12:49 PM
My wiz15/rog3 has disabled AT LEAST as many traps as your rog(w/e) He has used his magic and sacrificed much more than you in the pusuit of such... but all the sudden I just cant anymore...thats why we have cross class skills, thats what 3.5 is about, making w/e character you want to do w/e you want them to. Stop thinking that your class make up is all that matters, this isnt AD&D. Stop thinking that because I have only 3 levels of rogue im just a dabbler, thats not the way it works in 3.5, I ve done exactly the same amout of trapsmithing as you.

I think you just made my argument for me. Now we may actually see Rogues invited to parties.

Taerdra
02-18-2008, 12:51 PM
Wouldn't a Paladin Armor mastery 1&2 make more sense for 2/4 APs? Say available later than a fighter would get it?


Agreed. The 8 points is just over the top. You could also gradiate the BoG I-IV enhancement cost... like 1/2/4/6 enhancement points. That's 13 pts for +4 AC versus 20 pts.

Tallyn
02-18-2008, 12:51 PM
Did we really need to drive the Pure to MC rogue saves further apart? You guys(TURBINE) fabricate this "system" and now seem to be eliminating anyone with less than 10 levels of rogue from making any saves on elite. Where the **** are our Multiclass enhancements? Yeah, rogue love my ass. Pureclass for trapsmith or dont even bother its starting to feel like. Lees D&D more MMO every update.

I feel like they are adjusting trap sense to keep it's power relative to traps saving throw DCS. In pen and paper +4 to saving throws vs traps is quite an adjustment. Often times that can be the difference in not making a save on average, to making a save. Since trap saving throw DCs in DDO are so much higher, they scaled the trap sense benefit to give a bonus.

Now, I know this helps rogues a little, but does not address those classes that splashed a level or two of rogue to get those beenfits. Honestly, I do not know what they can do to help with that, but I'm still glad to see this benefit. My Rogue 14/Pally 2, will have well over +50 reflex save vs traps when he buffs himself now.

gpk
02-18-2008, 12:53 PM
Is crafting Tier2: Pure Good Burst going to be fixed in this patch too?

Right now it does not work as described, there is no 1d6 pure good damage/hit at all and the burst portion deads pure good damage to non-evil mobs rather than just to evil mobs.

Mad_Bombardier
02-18-2008, 12:54 PM
Wait a sec, that note about the moon of death waning. It's talking about the shroud, not the Vale. Which section is the NW part? This might mean that you'll no longer be sent to the penalty box upon death.Good call, Coldin! That's part 2, the maze. Not being pulled to the penalty box would make that section vastly easier. :)

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 12:54 PM
We're only working with a D20 here MT, these made up numbers added with the legit class feat numbers ARE in fact a big deal. You are wrong.

Perhaps I should clarify. I think the new enhancements aren't that big a deal.

I think the reported Trap DCs on elite are too high. Things shouldn't be designed around the maximum possible. Enhancements and the like should allow a character (notably pure class) to achieve the same results without having to focus quite so much on it.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 12:57 PM
My wiz15/rog3 has disabled AT LEAST as many traps as your rog(w/e) He has used his magic and sacrificed much more than you in the pusuit of such... but all the sudden I just cant anymore...thats why we have cross class skills, thats what 3.5 is about, making w/e character you want to do w/e you want them to. Stop thinking that your class make up is all that matters, this isnt AD&D. Stop thinking that because I have only 3 levels of rogue im just a dabbler, thats not the way it works in 3.5, I ve done exactly the same amout of trapsmithing as you.

Fact is trapsmithing has just been "adjusted" so only pure/near pure have a shot at elite. Dumbed down, nothing more.

That is exactly how it works in 3.5 when you multiclass...

When you multi class in 3.5 you sacrifice the upper level powers to get a wider selection of abilities... As the levels go up, depending on the amount of levels you take when you multiclass you will see the pure class do better at what the pure class does then a multi class.., but they will lack the wide selection of powers that a multiclass has...

That said.. if you only take 1 level in a class and put all you other levels in another that primary class will preaty much be as powerful as a pure class since not much happens at level 20. on some class you can even take 2 or 3 levels in another class with not much dmg to the primary class at high levels, but more then 3 levels in another class you will see that someone who put all his levels in the same class as your primary more powerful then your multi class in that classes abilities.... That is how 3.5 works..that is how 3.0 worked.. in fact that is how 2nd edition worked...(Do not remember 1st to safely say that for 1st edition).

So depending on the level difference in classes in your multiclass a Pure class will almost aways be more powerful then you primary class in a multiclass.

One other thing to add, Prestige classes help Multiclasses allot in power... Only problem is by the time they add prestige classes into DDO it will be to late for all current characters unless they allow a full respec.

How many Pure classes you see complain that it is not fair that a multi class can do what he/she can't?

Mad_Bombardier
02-18-2008, 01:02 PM
A "Report Harassment" button has been added to the mail UI. Selecting a letter and reporting it will also delete all mail from the sender.Not sure that this is even needed anymore (just like the Unconfirmed mailbox). I haven't received a single spam mail since Mod6 released. But, probably a good feature to have for the future incase the spammers find a way around current restrictions. :)

Drith
02-18-2008, 01:02 PM
Weekly Development Activities

Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.
Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, and Icy Blast now have their proper elemental particle effects. In addition these effects now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

Could we please have clarrification reguarding the above mentioned effects. Particularly will the effect match the in-game description of the effect on the current weapons.

PLEASE NOTE the in-game descriptions are ALL over the place. Some such as Good Burst claims to do an additional 1D6 damage on a non Crit but they do NOT. Some, such as Acid burst do NOT claim to do the additional 1D6 damage on a regular hit but they actually DO the additional damage.

Furtheremore in the quote above, first bullet: Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, etc... you quote the "BURST" term in the first sentence but under the same bullet you then use the term "BLAST".

Is this a Typo? Did you intend to rather say "In addition, the BURSTS now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's"

Could you also please be more descriptive regarding the "Additional Damage". This effects everyone who are considering currently crafting these weapons and many of us do not wish to hoard crafting items and wait just because of a BUG with regards to the in-game description of the effects and confusion as to what the intended effects are in addition to confusion reguarding the statement in the WDA for this week due to Typo's ???

And finally with regards to the seccone Bullet and the "BLAST" effect.

Could you please clarify the details with regards to what the "Damage on criticals" is 2D6 ? 4D6 ? As well as please clarify that the "additional damage on natural 20's is remaining the same? (4D6).

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

Drith
Founder

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 01:03 PM
I feel like they are adjusting trap sense to keep it's power relative to traps saving throw DCS. In pen and paper +4 to saving throws vs traps is quite an adjustment. Often times that can be the difference in not making a save on average, to making a save. Since trap saving throw DCs in DDO are so much higher, they scaled the trap sense benefit to give a bonus.

Now, I know this helps rogues a little, but does not address those classes that splashed a level or two of rogue to get those beenfits. Honestly, I do not know what they can do to help with that, but I'm still glad to see this benefit. My Rogue 14/Pally 2, will have well over +50 reflex save vs traps when he buffs himself now.

Yeah, they adjusted the trap DCs so almost noone can make them. Then they adjust the pure class enhancements to match that. Makes perfect sense in every MMO out there.

UtherSRG
02-18-2008, 01:05 PM
Could we please have clarrification reguarding the above mentioned effects. Particularly will the effect match the in-game description of the effect on the current weapons.

PLEASE NOTE the in-game descriptions are ALL over the place. Some such as Good Burst claims to do an additional 1D6 damage on a non Crit but they do NOT. Some, such as Acid burst do NOT claim to do the additional 1D6 damage on a regular hit but they actually DO the additional damage.

Furtheremore in the quote above, first bullet: Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, etc... you quote the "BURST" term in the first sentence but under the same bullet you then use the term "BLAST".

Is this a Typo? Did you intend to rather say "In addition, the BURSTS now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's"

Could you also please be more descriptive regarding the "Additional Damage". This effects everyone who is considering currently crafting these weapons and many of us do not wish to hoard crafting items and wait just because of a BUG with regards to the in-game description of the effects and confusion as to what the intended effects are in addition to confusion reguarding the statement in the WDA for this week due to Typo's ???

And finally with regards to the seccone Bullet and the "BLAST" effect.

Could you please clarify the details with regards to what the "Damage on criticals" is 2D6 ? 4D6 ? As well as please clarify that the "additional damage on natural 20's is remaining the same? (4D6).

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

Drith
Founder

"BLAST" is a 3rd tier raid loot upgrade for the Shroud raid.

gpk
02-18-2008, 01:07 PM
Could we please have clarrification reguarding the above mentioned effects. Particularly will the effect match the in-game description of the effect on the current weapons.

PLEASE NOTE the in-game descriptions are ALL over the place. Some such as Good Burst claims to do an additional 1D6 damage on a non Crit but they do NOT. Some, such as Acid burst do NOT claim to do the additional 1D6 damage on a regular hit but they actually DO the additional damage.

Furtheremore in the quote above, first bullet: Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, etc... you quote the "BURST" term in the first sentence but under the same bullet you then use the term "BLAST".

Is this a Typo? Did you intend to rather say "In addition, the BURSTS now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's"

Could you also please be more descriptive regarding the "Additional Damage". This effects everyone who is considering currently crafting these weapons and many of us do not wish to hoard crafting items and wait just because of a BUG with regards to the in-game description of the effects and confusion as to what the intended effects are in addition to confusion reguarding the statement in the WDA for this week due to Typo's ???

And finally with regards to the seccone Bullet and the "BLAST" effect.

Could you please clarify the details with regards to what the "Damage on criticals" is 2D6 ? 4D6 ? As well as please clarify that the "additional damage on natural 20's is remaining the same? (4D6).

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

Drith
Founder

Yes I agree, some speedy clarification would be a HUGE help for people currently crafting items.

On that note, are the splintered horns supposed to be doing something or are just dropping when they shouldn't?

Drith
02-18-2008, 01:11 PM
"BLAST" is a 3rd tier raid loot upgrade for the Shroud raid.

My apologies Uther I do not think you understood the intent of my request for additional clarification.

The information reguarding "BLAST" being a 3rd tier raid loot upgrade for the Shroud raid is very well documented. :)

What the community is requestiing is clarifications to the mistakes made in the WDA (Typo's) regarding BURST Vs. Blast in the first Bullet.

The discrepencies with the actual effect in game VS. the in game effect description.

As well as clarrification with respect to what "Additional Damage" means.

:)

wiglin
02-18-2008, 01:20 PM
I had this long complaint about stuff, but bla it doesn't matter. Turbine will always be turbine.

When turbine throws a curve ball its time to change the swing. (Even if it means deleting all toons and starting over)

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 01:21 PM
I think you just made my argument for me. Now we may actually see Rogues invited to parties.

So now I cant do the trapsmithing I was once fully specced and able to do and obviously cant handle the role of a full caster due to my MC levels in most situations and you think this is a good thing. Ive never had any problem getting a group for my rogues, making trapsmith pure only isnt going to help you, trust me. lol

gpk
02-18-2008, 01:26 PM
Can we get a dev response on the whole BAB15 attack rate slowdown?

Are we to assume by this continued silence by the devs that they are happy with the way the 5th attacks are currently implemented?

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 01:26 PM
I have one more thing to add to this Multi-class vs pure class debate we got going here...

Until they add prestige classes to help offset the problems with multiclassing powers into DDO I will not Multi-class...

Someone mentioned add Multiclass enhancements.. that Is an acceptable compromise for current builds until they add prestige classes.. But not acceptable to me.

They need Prestige classes in DDO to help the Multiclasses...

Only problem is that by the time they add them it will be to late for current multi-classes unless they allow a respec in some form.

UtherSRG
02-18-2008, 01:32 PM
I have one more thing to add to this Multi-class vs pure class debate we got going here...

Until they add prestige classes to help offset the problems with multiclassing powers into DDO I will not Multi-class...

Someone mentioned add Multiclass enhancements.. that Is an acceptable compromise for current builds until they add prestige classes.. But not acceptable to me.

They need Prestige classes in DDO to help the Multiclasses...

Only problem is that by the time they add them it will be to late for current multi-classes unless they allow a respec in some form.

We already HAVE Prestige Classes. Turbine chose to implement them as Specialty Enhancements. Rogues get the "Way of..." lines, Bards get Spellsinger, Virtuoso, and Warchater, etc. Don't hold your breath for a full class implementation. You won't see it.

wiglin
02-18-2008, 01:32 PM
At this point I would love to see prestige classes, but I would be just as happy to see them continue with the enhancements to incorporate prestige class abilities.

GreenGurgler
02-18-2008, 01:33 PM
NEW Ring of Troll's Regeneration description has been updated to mention that it heals via positive energy.


Um, why ?? Is this item coming back to the game? Last I checked (over a year ago) this item was pulled out of the game because the Devs didnt feel it fit in with the 'intent' of the game. So why fix an item that almost noone has and noone can get again??
Unless this is some new item in the game again?? Anyone?

Also, any plans on adding Green Steel Axes of ANY kind? My Dwarf wants to know if I should be holding my breath or sell all the ingredients at the AH.
(I realize this is the start of crafting, but to not include ANY kind of axe is unbelievable to me and many others).

Otherwise, great to see more stuff coming!

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 01:34 PM
I have one more thing to add to this Multi-class vs pure class debate we got going here...

Until they add prestige classes to help offset the problems with multiclassing powers into DDO I will not Multi-class...

Someone mentioned add Multiclass enhancements.. that Is an acceptable compromise for current builds until they add prestige classes.. But not acceptable to me.

They need Prestige classes in DDO to help the Multiclasses...

Only problem is that by the time they add them it will be to late for current multi-classes unless they allow a respec in some form.

LOL hey Haddar, I just ran with you last night on Fahl... or maybe llev.

OK say they are just waiting to balance things back out with PrC type enhancements. Why go out of their way to completely gimp many MC trapsmith builds on elite content right now? Why inflate these DCs and then right after pad the the only advantage of pure rogues to match it. Its an untimely/unwise(to put it nicely:)) move. This game is regressing back to AD&D(or possibly progessing to every other MMO out there) as the level cap rises.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 01:39 PM
Furtheremore in the quote above, first bullet: Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, etc... you quote the "BURST" term in the first sentence but under the same bullet you then use the term "BLAST".

Is this a Typo? Did you intend to rather say "In addition, the BURSTS now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's"

My interpretation was more like this:

X - Does damage on regular hits.
X burst - Does the same damage on regular hits and more on a critical hit.
X blast - Does the same damage on regular hits, the same damage on a critical hit and even more damage on a natural 20.

The note is saying that Blast is to Burst as Burst it to Regular. Or at least that's what I got from it.

wiglin
02-18-2008, 01:40 PM
I would also like to see the dc of elite traps lowered. I do not agree that pure rogues should be the best trapsmiths. Trapsmithing is a skill not an ability like casting or sneak attack. Rogues already get more abilities through their enhancements and skills being 1:1. The whole pure is better is not in the spirit of 3.5. I could care less about the symbol by your name. I want to know what you bring to the table as a character. It seems this game is getting more and more less like dnd and more like the cookie cutter world of mmo's. I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is not what this game was advertised to be.

Currently we do not have many options of finish a quest other than combat. Few quests allow you to sneak to the end, and talk to the boss instead of killing them. Turbine should go play fallout and fallout 2 if they want skill based trapsmith rogues. Implement more skill based ways to finish a quest much like fallout had, so the new super reflex rogue is not gimp outside of that one ability.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 01:42 PM
LOL hey Haddar, I just ran with you last night on Fahl... or maybe llev.

OK say they are just waiting to balance things back out with PrC type enhancements. Why go out of their way to completely gimp many MC trapsmith builds on elite content right now? Why inflate these DCs and then right after pad the the only advantage of pure rogues to match it. Its an untimely/unwise(to put it nicely:)) move. This game is regressing back to AD&D(or possibly progessing to every other MMO out there) as the level cap rises.

The problem is as you stated... they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do for pure classes... give them abilities that make their class abilities better because that is what they do...but not at the same time compensating for the reduction of power for multiclasses...

Still a Pure class still will better... but your right thy are making it almost impossible for multiclass... they should only make it very difficult for multiclass ;):D

Edit: Call me Tolith... That is my Main...And it is Heddar!!!:D;)

artvan_delet
02-18-2008, 01:46 PM
8 ap for bulwark 4. Are they kidding? Who can spare 8 ap for 1 more AC? I think the dev massively overestimate AC. HP are much more valuable. This isn't paladin love.

As stated by dev, if someone "really wanted it" they might pay, but this costs way too much.

Petro
02-18-2008, 01:50 PM
"NEW The General Vendor in Meridia, Belline Toulia, has learned the secrets required to repair dragonscale armor. She does not demand any special components to repair such armor, but does charge a premium for her repairs as though she were an expert smith."

cool

Turial
02-18-2008, 01:51 PM
Implement more skill based ways to finish a quest much like fallout had, so the new super reflex rogue is not gimp outside of that one ability.

I can see it now...Mod 7 the cheese grater mod. Players can now finish quests without fighting things....the rogue just needs to survive passing though a cheese grater, a blender, and the stomach of a small mammal. All in good fun.

There was a dev that posted that their advice would be to never, ever multiclass. I guess we are starting to see that with rogues, which would be fine, if players for the most part weren't at level 16 or too new to the game to build rogues to do traps, massive saves, and skilled combat.

Turial
02-18-2008, 01:53 PM
8 ap for bulwark 4. Are they kidding? Who can spare 8 ap for 1 more AC? I think the dev massively overestimate AC. HP are much more valuable. This isn't paladin love.

Agreed, even if it was another 6 ap for the 4th tier its still a bit much. They need to redo the cost for the whole line to 1/2/4/6 or something of the like to bring it inline with its power/utility.

dungeonrat07
02-18-2008, 01:53 PM
Gang, this is not the way to start your week off with me...

On topic, sans personal attacks plz
Hi there, and I want to say that in a lot of ways you guys at DDO are doing a great Job! I know that it takes time to build the game and that every thing can not be brought in at once. I am even sure that there are some thing that the DVs want in the game but are not in as of yet!

Also I know that you guys take a lot of abuse from others in the game, and from me as well! Thank for acting and reacting a lot better than the rest of us!

I hope you guys will stick with freedom, flexibility, and personal choice! That there is no right way and no wrong way int he game just choice!

I would like to see more wizard spell and I do not think they need to mainly be blaster type! Thanks for the two new first level spells Master's Touch and merfolk's Blessing. maybe soon spells like ventriloquism and wizard site which adds to the wizards spot and search skills!

That if you guys stick with Freedom, flexibility, and personal choice that DDO will be bigger than WOW! I am starting to believe that WOW has sent secret agents to DDO to disrupt and sabotage this game!!!!

rimble
02-18-2008, 01:57 PM
I can see it now...Mod 7 the cheese grater mod. Players can now finish quests without fighting things....the rogue just needs to survive passing though a cheese grater, a blender, and the stomach of a small mammal. All in good fun.

There was a dev that posted that their advice would be to never, ever multiclass. I guess we are starting to see that with rogues, which would be fine, if players for the most part weren't at level 16 or too new to the game to build rogues to do traps, massive saves, and skilled combat.

Encouraging multi-classing by building it into the system (as it has been in D&D for a long time) and then discouraging it with silly restrictions/requirements on Enhancements (an entirely new addition to the game system that they've created) is insanely bi-polar.

Come play DDO! Enjoy infinite character possibilities!**





** Infinite possibilities, but only eight that actually work. Turbine does not support/recommend multi-classing.

dungeonrat07
02-18-2008, 02:03 PM
I am a wizard, proud of it, why so I just have a wand when I can have a bag of tricks!
I am not a blaster but don't you push me!
Just because I can solo that it makes me anything uber or god like. I am just play the game the way I like!
Wizards are not the only ones that can power build Tanks can to!
I am a wizard and I leave the moral and ethical question to the Clerics
That when I transgress for a donations to the Cleric I know all is forgiven!

EinarMal
02-18-2008, 02:11 PM
There was a dev that posted that their advice would be to never, ever multiclass. I guess we are starting to see that with rogues, which would be fine, if players for the most part weren't at level 16 or too new to the game to build rogues to do traps, massive saves, and skilled combat.

It would not be fine at all in my opinion and many others and does not at all reflect the spirit of DnD. The best thing going for this game is all of the fun builds that you can make to get the job done. In the last several mods they are narrowing build choices more and more by the way they are overpowering the enhancement system.

Not everyone wants to make the flavor of the month Dwarf Fighter, Drow Sorcerer, or Warforged Wizard, and now I guess we can add Halfling Rogue to the Turbine approved character list. A big thumbs down from me....

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 02:16 PM
** Infinite possibilities, but only eight that actually work. Turbine does not support/recommend multi-classing.

I so wish I would have come across this. At least then I would have known they based it on AD&D, not 3.5.:)

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-18-2008, 02:20 PM
My interpretation was more like this:

X - Does damage on regular hits.
X burst - Does the same damage on regular hits and more on a critical hit.
X blast - Does the same damage on regular hits, the same damage on a critical hit and even more damage on a natural 20.

The note is saying that Blast is to Burst as Burst it to Regular. Or at least that's what I got from it.

The problem is that the description for the positive/negative BURST (2nd tier upgrade) says that you get base 1d6 damage PLUS the burst damage. However, the description for the acid/fire/shock/cold BURST (again, 2nd tier upgrade) says that you only get the burst damage and not the base damage.

See these two captures for what I mean:

http://photos.phase.net/albums/ddo/2ndtieracidburst.png
Fig.1: 2nd tier acid burst

Says that it should only do damage on a burst, but ACTUALLY does damage on both a hit AND a crit. This has been confirmed by several people, e.g. going +DM//EDM gives Holy and acid burst and three numbers are being seen on a non critical hit (base+holy+acid) with four in a crit (base+holy+acid+burst)

http://photos.phase.net/albums/ddo/2ndtiergoodburst.png
Fig.2: 2nd tier good burst

Says that it should do damage on both a base hit, and a crit, but ACTUALLY only does damage on a crit.

I need to know whether the status-quo (where acid burst is nice, and good burst isn't so nice) is going to stay, or whether my +5 holy acid burst khopesh is going to be 'nerfed' in a future patch. Considering the amount of investment I am putting into this weapon I think it deserves an answer.

Garth

HumanJHawkins
02-18-2008, 02:22 PM
NEW Randomly generated treasure accessories (necklaces, bracers, boots, rings, cloaks, etc.) that have a plus equivalence of +6 (which typically require minlevel 13) should now get their increased durability and hardness.

Does this include +5 Protection items? Or is it strictly +6 items as stated? I have seen a few +5 Protection neclaces with very low durability and hardness too...

Blazer
02-18-2008, 02:23 PM
NEW Randomly generated treasure accessories (necklaces, bracers, boots, rings, cloaks, etc.) that have a plus equivalence of +6 (which typically require minlevel 13) should now get their increased durability and hardness. On average, they will have a hardness of 8 and a durability of 70. The items that have already been generated without the increases cannot get the increases retroactively, but can still get a boost to their hardness and durability by going through the adamantine ritual at the Stone of Change.

Thanks for fixing this, but I would still like to see the ones I have already looted get retroactively fixed. If someone can correct me, doesn't performing the adamantine ritual mean the item becomes bound to that character? If so, while I can run around and collect lots of shards and increase the sad hardness (2) and durability (10) that I've got on freshly looted +6 stat rings, this means they're bound to one character forever and can never be traded to another character of mine as gear gets upgraded.

Drith
02-18-2008, 02:28 PM
My interpretation was more like this:

X - Does damage on regular hits.
X burst - Does the same damage on regular hits and more on a critical hit.
X blast - Does the same damage on regular hits, the same damage on a critical hit and even more damage on a natural 20.

The note is saying that Blast is to Burst as Burst it to Regular. Or at least that's what I got from it.

Hey Mystic. Don't take this the wrong way but what your wrote above is not your interpretation. It is what you think would be a logical progression of the 3 different effects. The actual text that the DEVS have posted is no where CLOSE to indicating the arguments that you have made above. I agree 100 % with what you wrote above as to how it SHOULD be. However unfortuantely the in-game descriptions are all over the place and do not reflect your logic above nor does the post from Quarion match the logic that you have said above.

For instance Quarion has said that BURST is changing to do additional damage on a 20... however then in the same sentence he says it's BLAST even though they have an additional Bullet explaining the changes with BLAST. So we're all left staring at our screens reading the WDA over a few times going ? Huh ?

*tilts head sideways like a confused puppy watching a nature show on the Discovery channel*

Kerr
02-18-2008, 02:36 PM
So now I cant do the trapsmithing I was once fully specced and able to do and obviously cant handle the role of a full caster due to my MC levels in most situations and you think this is a good thing. Ive never had any problem getting a group for my rogues, making trapsmith pure only isnt going to help you, trust me. lol

On Elite quests? Yes. Elite being the operative word. Not just "dabbler folks" but actual Elite characters. I'm sure you'll continue to be able to disable traps and such on Normal, and probably even Hard content.

EinarMal
02-18-2008, 02:43 PM
On Elite quests? Yes. Elite being the operative word. Not just "dabbler folks" but actual Elite characters. I'm sure you'll continue to be able to disable traps and such on Normal, and probably even Hard content.

Yeah well that's fine so dabbler melee classes like ROGUES/Bards/Clerics should not be able to hit mobs on Elite either. So jack up all the mob AC's to 60+ Turbine so only pure Barbs/Fighters with maxed out buffs can hit them. It's only fair. While you are at it balance all mob saves to 25-30+ with 20+ SR so that only really dedicated casters with maxed out gear can hope to land a spell on them.

So great I will delete my Bard since they only dabble in both casting/melee, and all rogues can be trapsmiths only on elite since they can't hit anything anymore. Maybe if people can figure out a way around traps they will invite you to their groups and then hope you die and carry your stone around until they find another trap then they *might* rez you. Maybe my Bard can come along and cast haste and buff up the "non-dabbler folks" so that they can kill things a little quicker.

Thanks great direction of the game....

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 02:43 PM
For instance Quarion has said that BURST is changing to do additional damage on a 20... however then in the same sentence he says it's BLAST even though they have an additional Bullet explaining the changes with BLAST. So we're all left staring at our screens reading the WDA over a few times going ? Huh ?

Um... I'm not sure I see what you're saying:


Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, and Icy Blast now have their proper elemental particle effects. In addition these effects now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

Good Burst and Evil Burst will bypass the appropriate DRs and get their particle effects.

Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, Icy Blast, Good Blast and Evil Blast will not do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20s. They will also get their particle effects and Good Blast and Evil blast will bypass the appropriate DRs.

Since I assume when he says "do damage on criticals" he's not saying that currently they deal no damage on a critical and that's being fixed, I'm guessing he means they'll do extra damage on criticals and even more damage on 20s.

I understand that the Burst effects are currently all over the map, and (as I said earlier) I see nothing in the WDAs to clarify that particular issue. But the note suggests, to me, that the Blast effects are supposed to be like extra-burst-y bursts. That is, the Blasts do Burst damage on critical and extra Blast damage on 20.

wiglin
02-18-2008, 02:46 PM
I can see it now...Mod 7 the cheese grater mod. Players can now finish quests without fighting things....the rogue just needs to survive passing though a cheese grater, a blender, and the stomach of a small mammal. All in good fun.

There was a dev that posted that their advice would be to never, ever multiclass. I guess we are starting to see that with rogues, which would be fine, if players for the most part weren't at level 16 or too new to the game to build rogues to do traps, massive saves, and skilled combat.

Multiclassing is just a part of 3.5 as staying pure. A dev also said evasion would never be changed. I think we have learned to take what Turbine says with a grain of salt.

I do not want skill based option's to be the only way to finish the quest, but allow multiple ways to finish the quest. For instance you could beat the final encounter in fallout 1 multiple ways. 1 you could put on the purple robe and blend in with everyone while sneaking down to the basement and setting C4 to explode, then exit the building calmly not fighting anyone, or you could fight your way to the top and kill the boss. Choices like these are what dnd is about, yet this game offers very few if any. If Turbines goal is to pidgeon hold a certain class into doing 1 thing on elite then they need to give multiple ways outside of just brawling your way through.

Let rogues set a trap if they have no mellee skills due to being the ultimate trapsmith. Rogues are missing too much of what makes them flexible in this game to force them into elite trapsmiths only.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 02:50 PM
I so wish I would have come across this. At least then I would have known they based it on AD&D, not 3.5.:)


Hey lleven.. you have stated this a bunch of times... I am confused... how is it not like 3.5?..

In 3.5 a Pure class is better at his abilities then a class that multiclasses into the class... same with DDO... So how is it not like 3.5?

A 20th level rogue has better sneak attacks... Better abilities to help him against traps and many more skill points to throw around..

A 5rogue/15 wizard has 5th level rogue abilities and less skill points to spread around all the rogue skills.both in DDO and in 3.5.(I used that level and class but fits if you change the classes or levels unless you switch the primary class to rogue and only multi-class 1 or 2 levels in another class maybe 3)

so how is it not like 3.5?

Rindalathar
02-18-2008, 02:53 PM
Ok, here's my take. I've played the same pure-class rogue since a month after launch. I've been denied more groups, seen more LFMs with every class BUT rogues listed, because DDO has not taken advantage of the most important part of rogues yet...skills. I mean lots of skills. We're arguing over trapsmithing here, since it appears that now it's the end-all-be-all skill to have. My rogue is very versatile in nearly every quest, but the perception is still there that it is the weakest class in the game. I've had to play my A-game on my rogue to prove to people that I am an asset in any quest. It's an uphill struggle every day I play. If Turbine wants to end this silly disagreement of multi-class versus pure, they need to add more skills and find functional and pertinent uses for those skills...period.

BTW I also feel that a pure class rogue should have an inherent advantage on elite content then a multi-class, I don't care how many skill points you spent. You still have advantages over my pure-class that aren't skills based, that I don't have. Let me do my job and you do yours and I don't care what you say about 3.5, etc., etc. and flexibility. It makes logical sense no matter how you cut it. Oh yeah, you like versatility in a character? They have a class for that. It's called a bard.

Kerr
02-18-2008, 02:54 PM
so how is it not like 3.5?

Since there are so few effective skills in game, it's easy to dump your points into cross class skills. When people don't have to be able to have a good ride, climb, Knowledge, sense motive, or any number of other skills they can just keep dumping points into a cross class skill and keep it high. In a PNP game, they'd hose themselves when the first instance came up they had to make a skill check that wasn't Jump, Tumble, DD or PL.

Drith
02-18-2008, 02:54 PM
Um... I'm not sure I see what you're saying:



Good Burst and Evil Burst will bypass the appropriate DRs and get their particle effects.

Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, Icy Blast, Good Blast and Evil Blast will not do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20s. They will also get their particle effects and Good Blast and Evil blast will bypass the appropriate DRs.

Since I assume when he says "do damage on criticals" he's not saying that currently they deal no damage on a critical and that's being fixed, I'm guessing he means they'll do extra damage on criticals and even more damage on 20s.

I understand that the Burst effects are currently all over the map, and (as I said earlier) I see nothing in the WDAs to clarify that particular issue. But the note suggests, to me, that the Blast effects are supposed to be like extra-burst-y bursts. That is, the Blasts do Burst damage on critical and extra Blast damage on 20.


Gah you're completely right. lol. So the only thing we need to know is what's up with the extra 1D6 on regular attacks. And what is the extra damage of the natural 20 Blast. Cool thanks.

Why on earth I had to read that 20 times to get it is beyond me. I need to sign up for newb school again! *sigh* lol.

EinarMal
02-18-2008, 02:56 PM
Since there are so few effective skills in game, it's easy to dump your points into cross class skills. When people don't have to be able to have a good ride, climb, Knowledge, sense motive, or any number of other skills they can just keep dumping points into a cross class skill and keep it high. In a PNP game, they'd hose themselves when the first instance came up they had to make a skill check that wasn't Jump, Tumble, DD or PL.

No they wouldn't they would build an Arcane Trickster;)

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 03:02 PM
No they wouldn't they would build an Arcane Trickster;)

You're still down three caster levels and you have far fewer skill points and a lower BAB than a rogue.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 03:05 PM
Let rogues set a trap if they have no mellee skills due to being the ultimate trapsmith. Rogues are missing too much of what makes them flexible in this game to force them into elite trapsmiths only.

Little off topic

Except 1 trap/chest in the game making a pure rogue to have the abiltiy to be just a trapsmith and gimping his combat capability is not worth it and i will never understand why someone would do that to their rogue for 1 Chest..

I have been able to make my rogue to be able to reliably ( survive even the new trap DC on elite, find and disarm every trap but 1 with 0 combat gimp.

I save Vs traps is + 35 unbuffed and I can get it to + 43 with no help from others... And buffed it can go even higher..

This is with 0 gimping to my combat abilities...

I can do everything a trapsmith build can do but 1 chest.. is a trapsmith build worth it?

EinarMal
02-18-2008, 03:07 PM
You're still down three caster levels and you have far fewer skill points and a lower BAB than a rogue.

...and far more skill points than you would have as a Wizard 17/Rogue 3. Tricksters have most Rogue skill in their skill list 1:1.

BAB is irrelevant when you are a 17 level wizard, that is not the point of taking the trickster levels. Of course they also need to add sneak attacks to ray spells, which even if they require a touch AC roll would still be easy to land.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 03:08 PM
A 5rogue/15 wizard has 5th level rogue abilities and less skill points to spread around all the rogue skills.both in DDO and in 3.5.(I used that level and class but fits if you change the classes or levels unless you switch the primary class to rogue and only multi-class 1 or 2 levels in another class maybe 3)

so how is it not like 3.5?

You are right up to here. The wiz15/rog5 can have all the trapsmith skills of a 20rogue minus 5 or so from trapsense and improved evaision. Point is he can still be an affective trapsmith at level 20 with a little ground to make up in the save dept, which can at least partially be covered by his spells.

Turbine more than doubles the difference I need to make up and offers nothing to do it with. Heck, most of the pure rogues cant even make the saves with help from the present enhancemnts. They get their enhancemetns adjusted up to cover the difference. All balanced around pureclass and their hugely inflated "enhanced" scores. Cant you see that this change was made specifically to gut MC trapsmiths? Seems pretty clear cause and effect.

I can be affective with a 15/5 split for trapsmithing in PnP and I (as of recent changes) no longer can in DDO. Im sure its my build though.;)

Good way to get more ppl on the full respec bandwagon Ill admit.:)

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 03:16 PM
So now I cant do the trapsmithing I was once fully specced and able to do and obviously cant handle the role of a full caster due to my MC levels in most situations and you think this is a good thing. Ive never had any problem getting a group for my rogues, making trapsmith pure only isnt going to help you, trust me. lol

You can still do 90% of the trapsmithing in the game. The Disarm and Search DCs haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is the save DCs, which I agree can be a problem on those traps that folks need to pass through. Though there are high twitch skill players who claim you don't need to pass through them. Which may be true, but I haven't managed that.

A multiclass rogue is plenty in all but a few cases. And in those cases, he or she should hopefully have other class abilities to help: buffs or superior hp or something. The current situation is that you need to take enhancements or feats to do those "stand in the traps" boxes on elite, even if pure. I think that the numbers are a bit rough, but the general idea there is sound.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 03:19 PM
I can be affective with a 15/5 split for trapsmithing in PnP and I (as of recent changes) no longer can in DDO. Im sure its my build though.;)

.

Not really.. in the Pnp game your lack of skill points will hurt you to the point to make your rogue skills almost useless or not good enough in enough of them.

important Rogue skills needed in PnP game..

Spot
Listen
Search
Disable Device..
Hide
Move Silently
Open Lock

Of those for trapsmithing you will need just Spot, Search And disable device

Wizard gets 2+ Int modifier, For those 15 levels with it costing you 6 points a level to raise all those skills you would need a 18 int from the start and you would be gimping your wizard skills..and other rogue skills.

A rogue on the other hand would have no problem building on those skills.

Kerr
02-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Not really.. in the Pnp game your lack of skill points will hurt you to the point to make your rogue skills almost useless or not good enough in enough of them.

Not to mention my PnP gaming group would probably tie up and leave a Wizard behind after we find out he has no Knowledge skills, no Arcane Lore or other useful 'book-learnin' stuff that make Wizards also useful to have around.

rimble
02-18-2008, 03:27 PM
Wizard gets 2+ Int modifier, For those 15 levels with it costing you 6 points a level to raise all those skills you would need a 18 int from the start and you would be gimping your wizard skills..and other rogue skills.

A rogue on the other hand would have no problem building on those skills.

PnP traps just involve Search and Disable Device. Also, there are other options (Able Learner) that make a multi-class Wizard/Rogue trivial to accomplish well.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 03:30 PM
Not really.. in the Pnp game your lack of skill points will hurt you to the point to make your rogue skills almost useless or not good enough in enough of them.

important Rogue skills needed in PnP game..

Spot
Listen
Search
Disable Device..
Hide
Move Silently
Open Lock

Of those for trapsmithing you will need just Spot, Search And disable device

Wizard gets 2+ Int modifier, For those 15 levels with it costing you 6 points a level to raise all those skills you would need a 18 int from the start and you would be gimping your wizard skills..and other rogue skills.

A rogue on the other hand would have no problem building on those skills.

You are confusing "rogue" with "trapsmith"(alot of ppl do that here;)) Listen is completely optional for a trapsmith, hide and move silently are handled via invis and silence(flexability/creativity;)). Open Knock? I have no idea how to handle that one:confused::rolleyes: Thats leaves about 3 skills and DDO like PnP I did have to gimp my concentration making getting hit while casting problematic at best. They had it right by PnP, all they needed to do was up the damage. This was a change (further)away from 3.5 and for the the worse imho.

Always liked spot for my MC rogues in PnP, saved me more times than I know Im sure.:)

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 03:31 PM
Wizards need concentration, spellcraft, assorted knowledges, and perhaps a few other things in p&p. Rogues probably need the social skills also, unless you count on having a bard in the party. Gather information, Bluff, etc. All those things make the DDO style MC trapsmith seriously gimped, even with prestige classes.

Base DDO makes it too easy to be a multiclass trapsmith, because no one has any required skills except rogues. That's why everyone and their brother can crossclass UMD and splash rogues can compete. Splash rogues can still compete in 90% of the cases. Just not the few that require making the trap save before disarming.

Edit: If you are building a trapsmith in a p&p party that has a rogue (ie you don't need to do the rest of his function), I'm a little uncertain as to the point. The rogue is still going to be better than you and present most of the time. I guess its useful backup if the rogue gets ganked or something... Hmm, I suppose you could have a party with a bard type and a MC trapsmith. Most arcane tricksters I've seen are either the party's rogue or they are just in it for the spell sneak attacks, not to be *the* trapsmith.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 03:36 PM
Wizards need concentration, spellcraft, assorted knowledges, and perhaps a few other things in p&p. Rogues probably need the social skills also, unless you count on having a bard in the party. Gather information, Bluff, etc. All those things make the DDO style MC trapsmith seriously gimped, even with prestige classes.

Base DDO makes it too easy to be a multiclass trapsmith, because no one has any required skills except rogues. That's why everyone and their brother can crossclass UMD and splash rogues can compete. Splash rogues can still compete in 90&#37; of the cases. Just not the few that require making the trap save before disarming.

At least there is a choice in PnP. A MC caster didnt need bluff, gather info. He would just charm the sob and find out what he'd need to know.;) In the right campaign there is absolutely nothing gimp about MC trapsmith. I guess this isnt the right campaign all of the sudden.:)

Luthen
02-18-2008, 03:37 PM
Wow... aside from wanting to see some extra content with this "Anniversary" release this is one of the best WDA's Ive seen inna long time. You guys really heard some of our concerns and put some great changes into effect. Dragon Armor repair is gonna be a huge benefit and thanks for that one. Improving Way of the Assassin was another good move to make it worth taking. To much good stuff to mention all at once. Simply put...
GREAT JOB ON THIS ONE DEVS!!!

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 03:44 PM
At least there is a choice in PnP. A MC caster didnt need bluff, gather info. He would just charm the sob and find out what he'd need to know.;) In the right campaign there is absolutely nothing gimp about MC trapsmith. I guess this isnt the right campaign all of the sudden.:)

You are still ignoring the fact that the only difference between the two is the small number of traps where you have to be in the trap to make the disarm check. And for that you'll have your spell buffs: resist, protection, stoneskin, false life, etc. Seriously, how many traps in the game are you suddenly unable to do?

Kerr
02-18-2008, 03:44 PM
Wow... aside from wanting to see some extra content with this "Anniversary" release this is one of the best WDA's Ive seen inna long time. You guys really heard some of our concerns and put some great changes into effect. Dragon Armor repair is gonna be a huge benefit and thanks for that one. Improving Way of the Assassin was another good move to make it worth taking. To much good stuff to mention all at once. Simply put...
GREAT JOB ON THIS ONE DEVS!!!

While I applaud the choice to give a crafter in Meridia that doesn't require relics to repair Dragon armor, I do have to ask why not just eliminate the relics required to repair them at all? Now anyone wanting to repair their Dragon armor will only go to Meridia.

wiglin
02-18-2008, 03:51 PM
Little off topic

Except 1 trap/chest in the game making a pure rogue to have the abiltiy to be just a trapsmith and gimping his combat capability is not worth it and i will never understand why someone would do that to their rogue for 1 Chest..

I have been able to make my rogue to be able to reliably ( survive even the new trap DC on elite, find and disarm every trap but 1 with 0 combat gimp.

I save Vs traps is + 35 unbuffed and I can get it to + 43 with no help from others... And buffed it can go even higher..

This is with 0 gimping to my combat abilities...

I can do everything a trapsmith build can do but 1 chest.. is a trapsmith build worth it?

I agree it is not worth it under current game mechanics.

What I have been reading so far is that rogue are needing 50-60+ reflex saves for the same traps that where once only needing 30+. This is a bit of a stretch and needs to be toned a little. Now if what you are saying is true and a rogue can reliably make their saves on elite with a 40-45 reflex save, then I say that sounds fair enough. 40-45 does not gimp combat, but the 50-60 that I have been reading about on the forums does, since it takes feats to get that high.

what I do not agree with is upping the difficulty of traps or saves to make rogues more valuable. All that does is discourage players from running those quests. I can't tell you how many times I have invited a rogue because they said they could disarm a certain trap only to blow it up and blame it on a 1 which is not an auto failure anyway.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 04:02 PM
Again it really kind of boils down to the fact that class balance is far less important in D&D than it is in DDO, because in D&D you're working with a static group of 3-5 other people on a regular basis, and you can work together to make sure all your bases are covered.

If no one wants to play a rogue, someone can play an arcane trickster and fill in the gap. If you have a rogue and an arcane trickster in the same party, they start to know who's got what strengths and they can work together.

In DDO, you don't really work together, at least not in the same way. And people can start to become redundant. And that's a problem.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 04:04 PM
what I do not agree with is upping the difficulty of traps or saves to make rogues more valuable.

Yeah, I agree with this statement (except for the part about upping difficulty. There hasn't been any increase in the DCs for Disarm, Search, or Spot. Its just more damage and harder saves if you end up in the trap). I think that upping the damage from traps was a very good idea, not because it makes rogues more valuable, but because it makes traps more in line with the dangers of the rest of an elite quest. There are still plenty of ways around or through traps without a rogue, its just more appropriately painful. Since we are talking elite, these are quests that people have run several times before. So being 'ambushed' by a trap isn't a likely event.

The new DCs are pretty extreme, though. As far as I know, the 60s and higher numbers being thrown around were speculations about how things would scale up, not actual figures. There are some documented low 50s, IIRC. Since you can get to the +70s range as a rogue..if that's all you want to do... I don't think 40s and 50s are that gimping for high level elite.

The low level elite DCs in the 30s are pretty sick, but none of those quests require you to go into the trap anyway. Nor is the damage fatal unless you get hit multiple times (admittedly entirely possible).

Staedtler
02-18-2008, 04:13 PM
Will fighters, barbarians, clerics or arcanes be getting new enhancements?

Nothing in mod 6 and nothing (yet) for mod 7?

Bradik_Losdar
02-18-2008, 04:23 PM
PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY IN XEN'DRIK - CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THE MULTI-CLASS v. PURE CLASS DISCUSSION TO ANOTHER THREAD!!!!!! :mad:

Nataichal
02-18-2008, 04:32 PM
1 thing. Can you edit the tip on rest shines resetting to also include lanscapes?

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 04:38 PM
PnP traps just involve Search and Disable Device. Also, there are other options (Able Learner) that make a multi-class Wizard/Rogue trivial to accomplish well.

Ummm.. Spot to..

*gm* Make a Spot check
*rogue* Ok I rolled a 30..
*gm* Ok you see a Trap set up ahead that if you stepped on that plate on the floor a blade would have shot out cutting you at the knees... Wow luckily you made that spot check so you can search for trap mechanism so you can disable it..

Spot is a very import Trapsmith skill...

ArkoHighStar
02-18-2008, 04:38 PM
I agree it is not worth it under current game mechanics.

What I have been reading so far is that rogue are needing 50-60+ reflex saves for the same traps that where once only needing 30+. This is a bit of a stretch and needs to be toned a little. Now if what you are saying is true and a rogue can reliably make their saves on elite with a 40-45 reflex save, then I say that sounds fair enough. 40-45 does not gimp combat, but the 50-60 that I have been reading about on the forums does, since it takes feats to get that high.

what I do not agree with is upping the difficulty of traps or saves to make rogues more valuable. All that does is discourage players from running those quests. I can't tell you how many times I have invited a rogue because they said they could disarm a certain trap only to blow it up and blame it on a 1 which is not an auto failure anyway.

One of the things i noticed in the new content, is fewer traps overall, only Rainbow in the dark has any, and of those 2 of them lead to chests only, and none require you to be in the trap to disable, so really we are looking at maybe 20% of traps in the game that require the player to either pass through the trap or stand in it to disable. The MC rogue can still disable the box without issue as dd dc's have not changed. I however am of the opinion that a full rogue should enjoy an advantage in traps over an MC rogue, simply because it is a core ability and they are provided class feats to enhance it.
Saying an MC rogue should be as effective as a full rogue when it comes to saving against traps, is like saying I take one lvl of barbarian and I should get all levels of rage enhancements, or taking 2 lvls of wizards and gaining acces to lvl 8 spells, take 2 lvls of anything and all the benefit you should get is 2 levels. Some would argue that things like barabarian rage define the class so it is not a fair comparision, but trap sense is a class granted feat, so while it is not the only thing that defines a rogue it is a core innate ability, and should be recognized as such.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 04:40 PM
You are confusing "rogue" with "trapsmith"(alot of ppl do that here;)) Listen is completely optional for a trapsmith, hide and move silently are handled via invis and silence(flexability/creativity;)). Open Knock? I have no idea how to handle that one:confused::rolleyes: Thats leaves about 3 skills and DDO like PnP I did have to gimp my concentration making getting hit while casting problematic at best. They had it right by PnP, all they needed to do was up the damage. This was a change (further)away from 3.5 and for the the worse imho.

Always liked spot for my MC rogues in PnP, saved me more times than I know Im sure.:)

If you noticed.. I pointed out what skill were important for trapsmitthing.. :-p.. all others are important rogue skills... :D

Kerr
02-18-2008, 04:43 PM
Will fighters, barbarians, clerics or arcanes be getting new enhancements?

Nothing in mod 6 and nothing (yet) for mod 7?

Fighters are doing fine as is. Barbarians already have enough. What else do you suggest they add? Clerics could use full access to metamagic enhancements. But what do arcanes need?

ArkoHighStar
02-18-2008, 04:43 PM
Ummm.. Spot to..

*gm* Make a Spot check
*rogue* Ok I rolled a 30..
*gm* Ok you see a Trap set up ahead that if you stepped on that plate on the floor a blade would have shot out cutting you at the knees... Wow luckily you made that spot check so you can search for trap mechanism so you can disable it..

Spot is a very import Trapsmith skill...

in pnp spot has nothing to do with traps, in pnp it is all about search. Basically the dm is expecting you to make an active search to find a trap.
edit: look at any 3.5 module there is no spot check for any trap, just a search and dd or ol check, spot checks for traps is a ddo only feature to speed up gameplay


Spot (Wis)
Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.

Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.

Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 04:45 PM
PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY IN XEN'DRIK - CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THE MULTI-CLASS v. PURE CLASS DISCUSSION TO ANOTHER THREAD!!!!!! :mad:


ROFLOL..

If a thread goes off subject as much as this one has.. *kind of*... I just usually ignore those posts and read the relevant ones..

ArkoHighStar
02-18-2008, 04:49 PM
ROFLOL..

If a thread goes off subject as much as this one has.. *kind of*... I just usually ignore those posts and read the relevant ones..

I don't think he reads these often, because I think every week, one item dominates a few pages, then someone brings up another items and we move on to that.

Bracosius
02-18-2008, 04:52 PM
While I applaud the choice to give a crafter in Meridia that doesn't require relics to repair Dragon armor, I do have to ask why not just eliminate the relics required to repair them at all? Now anyone wanting to repair their Dragon armor will only go to Meridia.

Careful or the horse may bite you.

Why waste time re-coding the gianthold guys. As long as we have a non-relic option I am happy.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 04:56 PM
in pnp spot has nothing to do with traps, in pnp it is all about search. Basically the dm is expecting you to make an active search to find a trap.
edit: look at any 3.5 module there is no spot check for any trap, just a search and dd or ol check, spot checks for traps is a ddo only feature to speed up gameplay

Huh... your right...

I never actually played it that way..

as a GM I always played it if a situtation allowed for the chance of spotting a trigger for a trap I would allow a spot check to see if it the rogue notices it before it was set up...

But your right..

But having a Paranoid Group (aren't they all) searching every spot to see if there may be a trap would slow things down allot!!

But I guess I have been using a house rule... oh well..

Aspenor
02-18-2008, 05:05 PM
Huh... your right...

I never actually played it that way..

as a GM I always played it if a situtation allowed for the chance of spotting a trigger for a trap I would allow a spot check to see if it the rogue notices it before it was set up...

But your right..

But having a Paranoid Group (aren't they all) searching every spot to see if there may be a trap would slow things down allot!!

But I guess I have been using a house rule... oh well..

But an important point of note, a good DM will give a subtle hint as to the presence of a trap, even if it's just a little thing such as a detailed description of the room. At least, that's how I feel. The spot check mechanism kindof advertises to your players something is there, with you picking up the dice and rolling them.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 05:07 PM
in pnp spot has nothing to do with traps, in pnp it is all about search. Basically the dm is expecting you to make an active search to find a trap.
edit: look at any 3.5 module there is no spot check for any trap, just a search and dd or ol check, spot checks for traps is a ddo only feature to speed up gameplay

Ok I did some digging... and the D&D FAQ points out that a Spot check can be used too see if something is amiss hinting that there may be a trap somewhere...But search would be used to actually find the trap then. they give no clues on what the DC would be.. But it is not really a set rule and more of the sage suggesting a house rule.

Edit: Eeeek... Aspenor beat me again!! Curses Foiled again!

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x226/dragnmoon/DSC00091.jpg

Luthen
02-18-2008, 05:31 PM
While I applaud the choice to give a crafter in Meridia that doesn't require relics to repair Dragon armor, I do have to ask why not just eliminate the relics required to repair them at all? Now anyone wanting to repair their Dragon armor will only go to Meridia.

Ya see... this is where we start getting a bad rep as whiney complainers who are never happy. We have asked for an alternative to repair Dragon Armors and they gave it to us. You questioning it sort of invalidates the good work they just did. Be happy that they gave us exactly what we asked for. Who cares if the repair person is in Timbuktoo or Meridia. It's in the game and we can access it. Good enough for everyone.

EDIT: Also... leaving the relic repairers in Giant Hold still allows people who do enjoy farming relics a cheap alternative to repair the armors rather then spending plat. ;)


Careful or the horse may bite you.

Why waste time re-coding the gianthold guys. As long as we have a non-relic option I am happy.

Exactly. :D

binnsr
02-18-2008, 05:33 PM
Who cares if the repair person is in Timbuktoo or Meridia. It's in the game and we can access it. Good enough for everyone. ;)

I think I'd actually care (just a tiny-bit) if the repair person was in part-5 of the Shroud.. so location does matter a tiny bit :D

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 05:34 PM
Who cares if the repair person is in Timbuktoo or Meridia.

Where is Timbuktoo?? :D;)

Any good quests there? :D

Riggs
02-18-2008, 05:45 PM
Yeah well that's fine so dabbler melee classes like ROGUES/Bards/Clerics should not be able to hit mobs on Elite either. So jack up all the mob AC's to 60+ Turbine so only pure Barbs/Fighters with maxed out buffs can hit them. It's only fair. While you are at it balance all mob saves to 25-30+ with 20+ SR so that only really dedicated casters with maxed out gear can hope to land a spell on them.

So great I will delete my Bard since they only dabble in both casting/melee, and all rogues can be trapsmiths only on elite since they can't hit anything anymore. Maybe if people can figure out a way around traps they will invite you to their groups and then hope you die and carry your stone around until they find another trap then they *might* rez you. Maybe my Bard can come along and cast haste and buff up the "non-dabbler folks" so that they can kill things a little quicker.

Thanks great direction of the game....

Exactly. Rogues are already much lower powered due to the game dirrerences between paper and online play. All those skills that are useful in pnp are next to useless in online play where npcs are static, cannot be stolen from, and only like 4 guys in the game can be bluffed as part of their dialogue options say.

Many times no one wants rogues because if you want someone who can fight - you want a fighter. If there is traps...well most of the time they can be run through, so why bring rogues.

Now traps are insane. Ok so you want rogues more. BUT traps are so insane that msot rogues cant survive the trap to reach the trap box.

Saying ONLY super duper elite all trap rogues can survive, and NO one else can...well ok. So ONLY super duper elite fighters can even hope to hit anything, or survive more than 1 hit from monsters. Same logic.

Pure rogues SHOULD have an advantage over multiclassed rogues. BUT your should NOT need to be a super duper elite pure trap /save only rogue JUST to be able to get through quests.

Better enhancements at high levels will encorage people to pure class. Forcing pure class choices, and also shafting existing multiclass players (who may have been playing the same character for a year or two say) is the ....less friendly way of doing things.

As above - if anyone actually agress with the super high trap dc idea - then they also, by the same logic, should be supporting the complete negation of non-maxed/twinked, buffed fighters actually even thinking about melee. And non-maxed/twinked casters, or really sorcs, should just reroll because no one else will be able to land spells or do damage.

Which is the direction Turbine changed and tried to bring more back in line last year.

Raithe
02-18-2008, 05:47 PM
NEW Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.

Let's go over the problems with this little item:

1) It wasn't released at the same time as the trap DC adjustments. That speaks volumes about the testing and integrity of the whole trap DC adjustment - and how well thought out this "fix" is likely to be.

2) A barbarian/rogue just became far better than a pure rogue at elite trap quests. Nothing like making trap sense feats less useful in comparison to the enhancements... what warforged is going to make a pure rogue now? My MC rogue used to have 3 out of 9 trap sense bonuses (33%). Without changing anything, he will now have 5 out of 13 (40%). Any MC rogue that can hit the +6 trap sense bonus (only using 6 APs ) is far more attractive than a pure build. Pure rogues were without question just nerfed.

3) Increasing difficulties, then making a particular aspect of rogue builds more powerful is just inflation. Rogue build purchasing power is still lower than it was before both changes occurred. Did someone think that the players were so stupid they couldn't tell that rogues are now less useful in general? They may be invited to a few elite quests, then ostracized more than ever in the others.

Just out of curiosity, why wasn't this same "fix" applied for Search and Spot DC problems? I am still running into pure rogues that can't spot traps, and a few that can't search them out.

Dragonhyde
02-18-2008, 05:47 PM
silly question but does the good burst on the raid crafted weapons require that you be good aligned to wield them?

Xyfiel
02-18-2008, 05:49 PM
Arcane Trickster makes a equivalent trapsmith. The only thing you lose is improved evasion. Trap box on the other side? Use Dimension Door.


Level 20 pure class Rogue with a 14 int ends with 230 skill points
Level 3 Rogue/7Wizard/10Arcane Trickster with a 18 int +level increases ends with 212 skill points.

Rogue maxes 10 skills, I max 9. I can add greater heroism for +4Xall skills. Now I have a lot more.
It is very easy to max 5 Rogue skills with Arcane Trickster. Both end with 12 base reflex. Rogue gets +6 trap sense.
Wizards can cast spells to beat that.

Disable Device=higher due to higher Int, or can spend less points to be the same.
Search=higher due to higher Int, or can spend less points to be the same.
Spot=Same
Hide=Invisibility, add some points to make up the dex difference
Open Lock=Knock
Move Silently=little lower due to dex
Listen=Same

Umd isn't a class skill for AT, but you can cast Arcane spells already.

maddmatt70
02-18-2008, 05:51 PM
The halflings' upgrade was definitely due. The sneak attack damage will of course benefit rogues, but where I really see this benefiting is say a halfling dual wielding barbarian against a red named boss such as the current pit fiend. In that scenario that character does the most dps of any other and in a fight that matters no less..

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 05:53 PM
Stuff about arcane trickster


Now if only they had prestige classes in DDO..

Once again.. I will not multi-class until they add prestige classes..:D;)

Angelus_dead
02-18-2008, 05:57 PM
Fighters are doing fine as is. Barbarians already have enough. What else do you suggest they add?
Fighters are NOT doing fine.

Any fighter level 12 would become better at fighting if he takes his next 4 levels in barb, ranger, or paladin. Even rogue4 would generally improve his combat, at the cost of -1 BAB. I'm not talking about the benefits to defense, magic, movement, or saving throws, which are natural and understandable advantages of multiclassing... even for the simple job of hitting monsters with a sword, switching away from the fighter class makes you BETTER at it.

The steps Turbine should take to fix this include new enhancements requiring level 11+ of fighter to qualify, new feats requiring 11+ level of fighter, and in general an increase in the number of useful feats, so that the fighter's bonus slots remain valuable.

Kerr
02-18-2008, 05:58 PM
[COLOR="Orange"]Ya see... this is where we start getting a bad rep as whiney complainers who are never happy. We have asked for an alternative to repair Dragon Armors and they gave it to us. You questioning it sort of invalidates the good work they just did. Be happy that they gave us exactly what we asked for. Who cares if the repair person is in Timbuktoo or Meridia. It's in the game and we can access it. Good enough for everyone.

The whole process is just fishy to me. Why farm relics to repair armor made of dragon scales? Shouldn't you have to farm dragon scales again? But if you make someone farm the dragons 25 times each at a minimum, haven't they earned their dragon armor to not have to deal with more farming to keep it up? You'll note the concept to farming to keep items repaired was tried once, and now has an effective work around to skip that process. Clearly they've determined the mistake they made by developing such a process. Why not just fully admit it and change the process?

Kerr
02-18-2008, 05:59 PM
Fighters are NOT doing fine.

Any fighter level 12 would become better at fighting if he takes his next 4 levels in barb, ranger, or paladin. Even rogue4 would generally improve his combat, at the cost of -1 BAB. I'm not talking about the benefits to defense, magic, movement, or saving throws, which are natural and understandable advantages of multiclassing... even for the simple job of hitting monsters with a sword, switching away from the fighter class makes you BETTER at it.

The steps Turbine should take to fix this include new enhancements requiring level 11+ of fighter to qualify, new feats requiring 11+ level of fighter, and in general an increase in the number of useful feats, so that the fighter's bonus slots remain valuable.

You may have a point. My fighter just reached 11, and I intend to keep him pure Fighter. I'm sure more will come along, but jeeze, getting all those Feats you'd think would mean something.

The_Cataclysm
02-18-2008, 06:11 PM
Let's go over the problems with this little item:
2) A barbarian/rogue just became far better than a pure rogue at elite trap quests. Nothing like making trap sense feats less useful in comparison to the enhancements... what warforged is going to make a pure rogue now? My MC rogue used to have 3 out of 9 trap sense bonuses (33%). Without changing anything, he will now have 5 out of 13 (40%). Any MC rogue that can hit the +6 trap sense bonus (only using 6 APs ) is far more attractive than a pure build. Pure rogues were without question just nerfed.


How? A barbarian/rogue can't take both lines. They have to choice either the barbarian version of the rogue version.

Also if pure rogues are having problems spotting and searching out traps maybe it is a build problem.

Sertrynus
02-18-2008, 06:17 PM
-8 Action point Bulwark of Good 4, ouch!
2 levels worth of action point for 1 more AC is very painful. Wouldn't a Paladin Armor mastery 1&2 make more sense for 2/4 APs? Say available later than a fighter would get it?
Please reconsider the cost of this enhancement line.

Is there really no way to squeeze in some long awaited pally only spells into this patch?
The lack of some simple spell compendium and srd spells and feats/enh are really hurting in this evil rich/high HP mob mod.

Furthermore the lack of Bless Weapon to me is most apparent in this mod thus far. Could Bless Weapon functionality not be simulated via a cheap enhancement?
Bless Weapon, min lev 4, 2 AP cost, every weapon wielded is good aligned and you get +10 to confirm criticals.

Agreed 100% with all this GPK, for the so called "Pally/Rogue Love" Mod, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of attention being paid to the Paladins.

Personally I was hoping for something to be implemented that would give paladins a reason to go pure paladin rather than being a Multi-Class Splash Class. Don't want to get into the whole Pure vs MC debate, but would like Turbine to at least provide some sort of incentive to stay pure paladin.

The cost of BoG is prohibitive and I don't know too many players (of any class) that would hold off on enhancements or sacrifice other enhancements just so that they could gain 1AC for the cost of 8AP, seems a little bit like "lets add this enhancement for the sake of adding it", I also see that the other "of Good" lines would probably be added with the same AP cost which would also be prohibitive as that would mean that you would need to spend 16 APs in order to get BoG 4 and RoG 4, just think about that if you are trying to add the other "of Good" lines......

A line of Armour and Shield Mastery would help in this respect, and I would think easy to do as it is already there for fighters and Dwarfs.

I'm sure that there are many other enhancement lines that could be added which would give other benefits other than just AC.

dragnmoon
02-18-2008, 06:19 PM
How? A barbarian/rogue can't take both lines. They have to choice either the barbarian version of the rogue version.

Also if pure rogues are having problems spotting and searching out traps maybe it is a build problem.

It is.. Or an Item problem... Spot (More then search) are almost a most for rogues..

It is easy to make a Fully capable combat rogue with out gimping your spot search..

there is a slight difference at low levels and you may need to get buffed at low levels.. but at high levels no buffs needed.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 06:27 PM
The only multiclass that is "just better" at this stuff is the paladin2/RogueX because the Paladin's save bonuses more than make up for the slight loss in enhancement opportunities.

It seems clear to me that halflings have jumped to the head of the pack as far as rogues go. Their luck enhancements and guile enhancements will go a long way towards allowing them to balance elite DCs and combat. The new DCs are certainly a shock and they may need to be lowered somewhat, but we need more concrete information. There's just so much disinformation running around right now.

What traps can only be disarmed by passing through the trap (without super twitch/movement control stuff...) and what are the elite DCs on those quests? Because those are the only ones that are really affected by this latest change, imho. How far off are these numbers from a reasonable rogue build of the appropriate level?

Lorien_the_First_One
02-18-2008, 06:34 PM
in pnp spot has nothing to do with traps, in pnp it is all about search. Basically the dm is expecting you to make an active search to find a trap.
edit: look at any 3.5 module there is no spot check for any trap, just a search and dd or ol check, spot checks for traps is a ddo only feature to speed up gameplay

I don't have any 3.5 modules but all the 3.0 modules included both spot and search options for traps.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 06:35 PM
Agreed 100% with all this GPK, for the so called "Pally/Rogue Love" Mod, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of attention being paid to the Paladins.


The cost of BoG is prohibitive and I don't know too many players (of any class) that would hold off on enhancements or sacrifice other enhancements just so that they could gain 1AC for the cost of 8AP


Well, considering that the "paladin love" mod is the mod after next, I hardly think it is justified to start screaming now. I doubt we have even half the new stuff for mod 7 posted yet. We are still getting new stuff for mod 6.1!

The +1 AC is very expensive, but there are a lot of enhancements that only a few people would consider paying for that still have some use. Also, its technically +1 AC to multiple people, since its an aura enhancement. Still unlikely to be worth it, but there are folks dedicated to the max possible AC who might consider it.

Luthen
02-18-2008, 06:42 PM
The whole process is just fishy to me. Why farm relics to repair armor made of dragon scales? Shouldn't you have to farm dragon scales again? But if you make someone farm the dragons 25 times each at a minimum, haven't they earned their dragon armor to not have to deal with more farming to keep it up? You'll note the concept to farming to keep items repaired was tried once, and now has an effective work around to skip that process. Clearly they've determined the mistake they made by developing such a process. Why not just fully admit it and change the process?

Normally I'd agree or say don't make the mistake in the first place. This time though, in the shadow of Mod 6.1 and 7.0 down the road it makes much more sense to use this work around alternative then spend to many extra man hours working on a total change when that time can be better spent getting Mod 6.1 done right and 7.0 content made.

Xyfiel
02-18-2008, 06:46 PM
Oddly enough I don't see people complaining that for 7aps wizards can get Scholar III and IV. The equivalent of one empowered polar ray. I think +1 ac to up to 12 people to be worth more then that.

Meriadeuc
02-18-2008, 06:48 PM
Where is Timbuktoo?? :D;)


Northwest Africa.




Any good quests there? :D


Not much of anything good there now, I believe. Although at one time it was quite the fabled city of wealth and learning.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 06:54 PM
Besides, the damage issue on dragonscale wasn't especially egregious until the change in the death penalty and the impact of the new higher level content's physical abuse of poor folks' gear became apparent. I don't really see what the problem is with having a 'low cost plus relics' and a 'high cost, but no relics' option is. Its not like there are going to be a lot of folks with dragonscale that can't get to Meridia if they really want the no relic option.

Raithe
02-18-2008, 07:53 PM
How? A barbarian/rogue can't take both lines. They have to choice either the barbarian version of the rogue version.


You really have to ask how? Really?

A barbarian can easily get double the hit points of a high con rogue. That is basically improved evasion that works on everything.

A barbarian gets improved uncanny dodge at high level.

A barbarian gets the same trap sense enhancements as a pure rogue can get, and they just became inflated to the point that Dex and base reflex save scores barely make a dent (and the barbarian/rogue will have a decent dex and base score because of his 2 levels of rogue). Dex and base reflex save become less important - all the power is in the trap sense & enhancements & IUD. Taking a single feat (Resilience) will probably make up 90&#37; of the difference, and will have uses ranging widely outside of just traps.

A raged barbarian can run faster, jump higher, and has sprint boost. He will get hit far less often.

A barbarian will run the rest of the quest better with sets of powerful enhancements that work outside of backstab damage and trapsmithing.

Need I go on?... cause I could...

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 08:05 PM
So what's different than before? Except that the trapsense enhancements are a bit more useful (Did any barb buy these before?) All of those things apply right now. The only difference is that trapsense might leech off some of the barb's combat enhancements.

Staedtler
02-18-2008, 08:12 PM
Fighters are doing fine as is. Barbarians already have enough. What else do you suggest they add? Clerics could use full access to metamagic enhancements. But what do arcanes need?

In the enhancement system we currently have, I think the mini PrCs are pretty neat. So neat, in fact, that all classes should have that option. This would be a welcome dose of variety.

Fighters could get some bonuses to their weapon specialization or crit multipliers. Add in some new combat maneuvers only attainable through enhancements.

Barbarians are pretty full up as it is, I agree. I just see this as a reason to get creative. A mini PrC based around beast totems could do the job.

The enhancement system would be an excellent way to give clerics actual domains. The faith enhancements, which give an ability usable once every ten minutes, do not fit this requirement. Throw in some new spells that a cleric may prepare depending on which domain they choose. Add in some skill or DC or SP bonuses for variety as well.

Arcanes can get PrCs which give them access to more prepared spells/known spells, or a built in spell length duration or boosted spell AoEs. The bard enhancements are an excellent idea of what can be done for spellcasters.


After putting in some more thought on this issue, I've taken this to another thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1571770#post1571770) so the WDA doesn't get too clogged up with tangential discussions.

Raithe
02-18-2008, 08:13 PM
So what's different than before? Except that the trapsense enhancements are a bit more useful (Did any barb buy these before?) All of those things apply right now. The only difference is that trapsense might leech off some of the barb's combat enhancements.


Dex and base reflex save become less important - all the power is in the trap sense & enhancements & IUD.

A barbarian/rogue gains 4 more in trap sense and enhancements. The difference between a typical rogue and a barbarian/rogue in dex bonus and reflex save is probably about 6-8. At the very least that difference was cut to a quarter its previous size because 1) trap DCs got scaled up dramatically, and 2) the trap sense enhancements just got scaled up in power.

It converts barbarian/rogue being a partial trade-off to pure rogue being nearly unthinkable.

EDIT: And the point is that a barbarian/rogue makes a dramatically better rogue when it comes to elite traps. Your statement about typical barbs taking this enhancement or that is completely irrelevent.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 08:29 PM
A barbarian/rogue gains 4 more in trap sense and enhancements. The difference between a typical rogue and a barbarian/rogue in dex bonus and reflex save is probably about 6-8. At the very least that difference was cut to a quarter its previous size because 1) trap DCs got scaled up dramatically, and 2) the trap sense enhancements just got scaled up in power.

It converts barbarian/rogue being a partial trade-off to pure rogue being nearly unthinkable.

How does the barb/rogue "gain" relative to the pure rogue? He gains relative to the static DCs, but those increased by more than the +4 he could get (+8 if he's not already spending the 10 APs). But everything he gains is also gained by the pure rogue. Or the pure rogue doesn't need to take them if the barb/rogue's lower values are sufficient. Btw, I'm not arguing that barb/rogues aren't good. I just don't see how giving both characters a potential +4 to trap saves suddenly changes everything.

You can make the case that DCs and damage went up so much that a pure rogue's advantages in saves don't matter anymore, but that's true now if its true at all. The enhancement change doesn't affect that at all.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 08:40 PM
... a bunch of stuff about barbarians ...

Honestly, I kind of like the idea of leaving the Barbarian trap sense enhancements as they are now and only increasing the bonus from the Rogue ones.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 08:47 PM
Well, it depends on what the goal of the changes was.. Its its really to put the squeeze on splash rogues, I agree with that. If its just to make trapsense enhancements more worthwhile, I don't see a reason to distinguish between the different classes that get that ability. Barbarians are *supposed* to be good at surviving traps by instinct and toughness. Heck, barbarian/rogue is practically an archetype, as Conan was most definitely a thief (though he robbed places that seemed to forget to lock things up... :P )

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 08:50 PM
If its just to make trapsense enhancements more worthwhile, I don't see a reason to distinguish between the different classes that get that ability.

Yeah, but if we're already doing that... I mean Barbarians aren't the only ones who use weapons, but they're the only ones who can get significant increases to critical threat range for significant lengths of time. ;)

Raithe
02-18-2008, 09:38 PM
The enhancement change doesn't affect that at all.

What are you not getting?

Let's say that the old high water mark in the game was a reflex DC of 37. The new one we'll say is a 51.

Old pure rogue:
10 base
12 dex
5 item
4 gh
2 luck
5 trap sense
1 haste
0 enhancements
----------------
39 > HWM

Old barbarian-rogue (14/2):
7 base
7 dex
5 item
4 gh
2 luck
1 haste
1 parrying
4 trap sense
2 enhancements (3 APs)
4 Resilience -OR- 4 IUD
----------------
36+ >= HWM

New pure rogue:
10 base
12 dex
5 item
4 gh
2 luck
5 trap sense
1 haste
1 parrying
6 enhancements (6 APs)
------------------
46 < HWM

4 Resilience -OR- 4 IUD
------------------
50 = HWM

New barbarian-rogue (13/3):
7 base
7 dex
5 item
4 gh
2 luck
1 haste
1 parrying
5 trap sense
8 enhancements (10 APs)
4 Resilience
2 Lightning Reflexes
----------------
46 < HWM

4 IUD -OR- 4 Halfling saves -OR- 4 Human versatility boost
----------------
50 = HWM

In the old scenario, the pure rogue didn't have to do anything to build for elite. In the new system, they both have to use several action points and probably take a feat or 2. The rogue's effectiveness at traps becomes scaled relative to the barbarian/rogue's to the point that the barbarian/rogue sacrifices only a little more to achieve similar results.

In short, it's 0 feats and enhancements against a feat and 3 action points used,

vs.

6 action points and a feat used against 10 action points and 3 feats.

It's a big difference.

EDIT: reworked for accuracy.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 09:55 PM
Unless I'm reading your post wrong, it looks like the Resilience isn't necessary on the rogue, if the target is 51. So that's not 10 APs *and* a feat. Its 3 APs and a feat or 10 APs. Whereas the barb/rogue is 10 APs and 3 feats. Three feats out of six is pretty expensive.. Am I reading this wrong? Even if it is 10 and a feat vs 10 and 3 feats, I think the price increase (10 APs, 1 feat vs 4APs and 2 feats) is not coming out in the barb's favor.


MT,

I'm assuming you are being facetious. The different enhancements that the different melee classes get are not a case of one class having the same specific class ability, but only one getting to enhance it with APs. If wizards could buy metamagic enhancements but sorcerors couldn't, it might be closer... Anyway, I don't think that this is a law case, where existing bad precedent means that future decisions have to based on that bad idea... :D As I said, its a matter of what the Devs are trying to accomplish. If its to create a divergence in the trap sensing abilities of barbs and rogues that doesn't exist in p&p, then fine. But if its just to enhance trapsense's value, it should apply to both.

Affront
02-18-2008, 10:05 PM
I thought enhancements were going to cap at 6 points so that players dont have to spend multiple levels working towards a single enhancement.


That was the primary reason we didn't create Bulwark of Good IV previously, but decided to make it available in case someone really wanted it.

That's funny 'cause I'm sitting on seven enhancement points on my level 16 wizard. Sure I could put a bit more oomph into my firewalls & ice spells but I couldn't be bothered to right now. Or I ould wear armor with next no spell failure but that wouldn't really bring my AC up to anything close to useful at level 16 (robes that clash with themselves are awesome!). I wouldn't mind spending eight enhancement points on intelligence IV....

Raithe
02-18-2008, 10:18 PM
Unless I'm reading your post wrong, it looks like the Resilience isn't necessary on the rogue,

It's not. But if resilience isn't taken, Improved Uncanny Dodge becomes necessary. IUD counts as a feat used because it gets used when you use it. Sounds funny the way I said it, but that's how it should be calculated.



...if the target is 51. So that's not 10 APs *and* a feat. Its 3 APs and a feat or 10 APs. Whereas the barb/rogue is 10 APs and 3 feats.

In reality a barbarian could leave off lightning reflexes, which is almost negligible against such high DCs. He'll fail saves more often, but has the strength and speed to get hit less often. I said two or three because of this consideration.



Three feats out of six is pretty expensive.. Am I reading this wrong? Even if it is 10 and a feat vs 10 and 3 feats, I think the price increase (10 APs, 1 feat vs 4APs and 2 feats) is not coming out in the barb's favor.


Let's not forget that the rogue is dex-based. Weapon finesse is almost a requisite.

Vormaerin
02-18-2008, 10:34 PM
I agree that the rogue is better off taking Resilience (or being a halfling with some luck enhancements) rather than relying on IUD. But the barb is relying on it even with the feats.

And Weapon finesse is, again, something that rogue is already spending now. And if you want to start with that, your barb/rogue is giving up a shot at Crit Rage 2 by taking another rogue level.

Anyway, this is a rather lot of posting for a minor quibble. Both builds are fine, though the rogue has more options if 51 is too low a HWM. We just seem to value feats vs APs a little differently. A rogue without counting IUD is at 50 for 10APs and a feat. The barb/rogue is only at 50 with IUD, 10 APs, and 3 feats. I think the barb's feat expenditures are a lot more costly than you do, it seems.

Xyfiel
02-18-2008, 10:40 PM
The x5 crit option is probably going to be a Barb or Fighter prc enhancement. I am going with Fighter Weapon Master. They plan stuff out 2 mods in advance, so it is very possible they already have the other class enhancements thought out.

Raithe
02-18-2008, 10:50 PM
And Weapon finesse is, again, something that rogue is already spending now.

Which is important because it shows that built-in class skills and abilities are more important for the rogue, and abilities that have to be purchased outside of that are more spendy.


Anyway, this is a rather lot of posting for a minor quibble.

I agree, but I would have thought that what I said initially would have been really easy to visualize. Apparently not.



Both builds are fine, though the rogue has more options if 51 is too low a HWM. We just seem to value feats vs APs a little differently. A rogue without counting IUD is at 50 for 10APs and a feat. The barb/rogue is only at 50 with IUD, 10 APs, and 2 feats. I think the barb's feat expenditures are a lot more costly than you do, it seems.

Fixed.

Six action points buys +6 to reflex saves against traps. 5 class feats give +5. You be the judge.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 11:26 PM
If wizards could buy metamagic enhancements but sorcerors couldn't, it might be closer...

It's funny you should mention those.

Why do some spellcasters get metamagic enhancements but others don't?

Vormaerin
02-19-2008, 02:21 AM
Six action points buys +6 to reflex saves against traps. 5 class feats give +5. You be the judge.

Which is an entirely different issue than the one we are talking about, but whatever. And that quote wasn't "Fixed". The barb/rogue with 1 more feat spent is +6 less than the full rogue, since you are counting IUD for the barb, but not the rogue. Considering its not clear at all that 51 is the actual HWM, that's moderately important.

I'm not sure what the problem is, though. Barbarians are SUPPOSED to be good at avoiding traps and you are adding rogue on top of that. Is there a problem with two different builds that both expend heavily on trapsmithing being vaguely equivalent? Isn't that what other posters are bemoaning as no longer true? The barbarian will have his rage, fast movement, and hp while the rogue will have his special abilities (improved evasion, defensive roll, slippery mind), scads more sneak attack damage, and so on.

Unless your argument is, ultimately, barbs are just better than rogues in DDO. In which case, I'll just shrug and say "whatever". That's just too subjective to even start talking about.


MT,

If you mean the differences between clerics and mages in terms of what they can enhance? Or the fact that the partial spellcasters (barbs, paladins, rangers) don't get metamagic enhancements? Spellcasting is core enough for bards to think they might merit them, I wouldn't say so about paladins and rangers. Anyway, I haven't really looked at that issue so I'm certainly not going to spout off about it.

winsom
02-19-2008, 04:13 AM
That it's not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be.

Since we can't respec our alignments or starting ability scores there are a lot of rogues that can't take 2 paladin levels (to help them with reflex saves). Even if we could, I don't think that would be a good work around. That's a limitation on character creativity.

It seems to be a large problem to me. I have a drow rogue with DEX 28 and Reflex around +30. Thats not a gimpy rogue build, or shouldn't be anyway. But it's not nearly good enough for some elite traps when save failure chance is over 50&#37; and a 2 or 3 fails = death. How much should Elite quests require certain builds thereby eliminating the character variety that makes D&D fun?


Yeah, they adjusted the trap DCs so almost noone can make them. Then they adjust the pure class enhancements to match that. Makes perfect sense in every MMO out there.

The DC increases on hard and elite are significantly higher still than the compensation coming with the Trap Sense enhancement upgrade.


Level 20 pure class Rogue with a 14 int ends with 230 skill points
Level 3 Rogue/7Wizard/10Arcane Trickster with a 18 int +level increases ends with 212 skill points..

An arcane trickster is required to spend 14 points on Decipher Script and Escape Artist (and then rarely use those skills, if ever). Tricksters also need to have SOME wizard skills too otherwise they are woefully gimped compared to single-classed wizards. Try playing one without a lot of Concentration skill and fair to good Spellcraft and Knowledge skills and the rest of the party will feel like you are just an apprentice wizard (or a sorceror : ) skill-wise.

I played my Trickster 3 times this past four-day weekend. He is very good at roguish-INT stuff like search and disable traps, but he has no roguish movement skills (stealth, jump, etc) , and paltry or zero roguish knowledge skills or roguish social skills, and his sneak attack and base attack bonus is sub-par... Compared to wizards, he is a fair wizard-substitute at mid-levels, but he can not compare to a level 10 wizard in versatility, let alone a 15th wizard (2 more bonus feats). He is significantly less powerful as a result, but still useful (I hope ! ) I played with random pick-up groups at a convention. We always had a single classed wizard and more dedicated rogue as part of each party, so my trickster was just playing auxillary support aside from a few encounters where my different spell selection and different tactics were useful.

Trickster with 1 rank of Knowledge: Dungeon: "Well, its a slime and its green, but I have NO IDEA what it is! Its so large (hit dice)...I never read about any dungeon-dwellers like that! It might be harmless, for all I know."

Wizard with 10+ ranks "(sighs at Trickster) That is a huge GREEN SLIME! (rolls eyes). Very dangerous unless we do this and this..."

Vormaerin
02-19-2008, 04:35 AM
You aren't required to have improved evasion. It just helps a lot. I'm not sure what your build is, but Raithe posted a build above that got to +50 without much effort as a pure rogue. If you are multiclassed, you'll need to look at other means of mitigating damage for those traps you need to pass through. Resists, Protection/stoneskin, speed boosts, etc.

Its going to take some serious evaluation to figure out what is and isn't necessary to do as an elite trapsmith these days. The devs may end up lowering the DCs or they may not. But I think that either way, the days of not having to spend any thought on trap saves for elite play are pretty much over.

Aesop
02-19-2008, 05:17 AM
Weekly Development Activities

This week's edition is an extra meaty, double issue! Quarion will be out of town next week on business, so there will be no WDA next week. (BE NICE TO TOLERO!)[COLOR=YellowGreen]
[U]

NEW Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:.
Cost: 8 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.
[/LIST]7.1

OK assuming this is a +1 for a total of +4 to the bonus granted to AC then this enhancement is way too costly for the benefit here. +1 AC for 2 levels worth of AP? yeah way too costly. Make this a Combo Power maybe called

NEW Paladin Bulwark of Faith:
Cost: 8 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good II,Paladin Resistance of Good II 48 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +1 Armor Class bonus and bonus to all Saves. This stacks with a Paladin's Bulwark of Good bonus and Resistance of Good bonus

Also for the rogue thing... increasing it to 3 extra damage per level of enhancement doesn't go far enough. We are talking a staple of Rogues that in this system has been downpowered significantly compared to the overall damage put out by other classes. Casters gaining 40&#37; by enhancment and 50% by item + critical effects are doing huge amounts of damage and monster HP went way way up with them... making it 5 per level may be ok but still relatively speaking it is underpowered... even compared to the other melee bonuses... its why I was suggesting a relative increase to each Sneak Attack Die +1/+2/+3 per die. Rogues have huge investments necessary in there builds due to the major inflation in Trap DCs and now to insane levels for save DCs to even attempt said traps in many cases... more enhancement costs for less effect does not help out a class that people forming groups won't take based on the premise that they can't kill fast enough and are "too squishy"

Aesop

Vormaerin
02-19-2008, 05:33 AM
I agree that more could be given to rogues in terms of damage output without any problems. I do think that comparing rogues to casters' enhancements *and* items is a bit disingenuous. Rogues do get weapon effects also. A high level rogue is getting 8d6 worth of sneak attack damage. I don't know if he's going to get +4d6 worth of bonuses from items, but its not that far off.

The 40% bonus damage from enhancements is something that should be more closely approximated. The current proposal is about +25% of max damage (+12 on 48 (8d6)) or about +45% on the average damage (28). That's not completely awful by any means as a percentage. It doesn't match the raw numbers bonus of spellcasters, of course, so there is definitely room for more. But spells and melee attacks are quite different.

I think a better comparison would be to see how much the other melee classes get their damage boosted by enhancements and compare that.

Aesop
02-19-2008, 05:59 AM
I agree that more could be given to rogues in terms of damage output without any problems. I do think that comparing rogues to casters' enhancements *and* items is a bit disingenuous. Rogues do get weapon effects also. A high level rogue is getting 8d6 worth of sneak attack damage. I don't know if he's going to get +4d6 worth of bonuses from items, but its not that far off.

The 40% bonus damage from enhancements is something that should be more closely approximated. The current proposal is about +25% of max damage (+12 on 48 (8d6)) or about +45% on the average damage (28). That's not completely awful by any means as a percentage. It doesn't match the raw numbers bonus of spellcasters, of course, so there is definitely room for more. But spells and melee attacks are quite different.

I think a better comparison would be to see how much the other melee classes get their damage boosted by enhancements and compare that.

um... yes it is that far off...


I was comparing the bonuses a damage class gains and the bonus hp to mobs that came with it to the now possible 32 points with every enhancment and a +5 Backstabbing weapon. Unless these bonuses count in the Critical Multiplication it is a significant variance in relative power especially considering the necessity of focusing in multple areas that is required of the rogue class. and for a relative cost of 30+ AP for the rogues full power and a single race vs 10 AP for a caster.


heck the Barbarian Critical Enhancement does more to increase DPS than the rogue sneak attack bonuses from both lines and an item. Paladin Smite? lets see supposed to do Paladin level more damage... I think we have a slight increase there don't we... Don't get me wrong they need it but so too does a rogue.

Don't get me wrong the Halfling Sneak attack Enhancement sounds nice ... but that is one type of rogue build. The total of +8 (and at short bursts that cost you other damage potential I might add otherwise +4 w/o Way of the Assassin) doesn't even make a ding in the hp/damage differential


Aesop

honkuimushi
02-19-2008, 07:06 AM
NEW Randomly generated treasure accessories (necklaces, bracers, boots, rings, cloaks, etc.) that have a plus equivalence of +6 (which typically require minlevel 13) should now get their increased durability and hardness. On average, they will have a hardness of 8 and a durability of 70. The items that have already been generated without the increases cannot get the increases retroactively, but can still get a boost to their hardness and durability by going through the adamantine ritual at the Stone of Change.


Is there some way to allow us to upgrade these with a cut rate adamantine ritual? These items have a durability of 10 and a hardness of 2. The adamantine ritual is extremely costly with the amount of Khyber shards required, the amount of soul gems required, the availability of a caster that can cast 8th level spells, and adamantine from BAM runs as well. And inexchange for all that, you get an item with a hardness of 7 and a durability of 20. Plus, you do have to bind it. I realize that it may be difficult to recocgnize the bugged items in the game, but can we get some way to exchange these items or at the very least, allow those of us willing to bind these items, a free of very low cost adamantine ritual?

Impaqt
02-19-2008, 08:45 AM
Who decided that 50 was the High water mark for Trap DC's?

That number is low... VOL is 50... Rainbow is higher.....

binnsr
02-19-2008, 08:46 AM
It's funny you should mention those.

Why do some spellcasters get metamagic enhancements but others don't?

That fact makes my cleric a sad panda..

http://www.mightythores.com/imagen/noticias/sad_panda.jpg

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 08:53 AM
Jus an FYI IUD does in fact only grant a +4 to Ref save. +6 only goes to AC. Check the compendium/character sheet/players handbook if you dont believe me.:)

Winsom,
Was only trying to point out that the DC and the Trapsense increase go together, hand in hand to shaft some MC rogues. They are not cause and effect, they were planned together to give pure/near pure rogues a chance at saving with decent(to heavy) investment and no chance to rogues who cant(due to the fact they dont fit TURBINES idea of who should be trapsmithing) decently invest.;)

EDIT
Just wanted to call this change out becasue it the type of change that adds absolutely nothing to the game. It only takes away. That is all.

Raithe
02-19-2008, 10:06 AM
I'm not sure what your build is, but Raithe posted a build above that got to +50 without much effort as a pure rogue.

I wouldn't call basing your entire build around dex, using 1/6th of your total action points, and taking a feat a small effort.

Yes, a rogue built specifically for that purpose will not find it overly difficult.

Rogues aren't supposed to be built for specific purposes.

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 10:25 AM
Jus an FYI IUD does in fact only grant a +4 to Ref save. +6 only goes to AC. Check the compendium/character sheet/players handbook if you dont believe me.:)

.

In DDO... I just tested it last night.. it gave +6 to my Ref save...

binnsr
02-19-2008, 10:28 AM
Jus an FYI IUD does in fact only grant a +4 to Ref save. +6 only goes to AC. Check the compendium/character sheet/players handbook if you dont believe me.:)



In DDO... I just tested it last night.. it gave +6 to my Ref save...

so, is the compendium wrong or the implementation .. i'd hope that its the compendium, especially given the new happy high ground for reflex saves is in the 50s..

Coldin
02-19-2008, 10:36 AM
so, is the compendium wrong or the implementation .. i'd hope that its the compendium, especially given the new happy high ground for reflex saves is in the 50s..

Not to mention merely getting an increase to AC for Imp Uncanny Dodge is kinda weak considering how many rogue levels you have to take to get it.

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 10:37 AM
so, is the compendium wrong or the implementation .. i'd hope that its the compendium, especially given the new happy high ground for reflex saves is in the 50s..

Thats the exact reason Im hoping it is an implimentation mistake. Turbine is continually making up, cranking out and upping all these figures. Any that might possibly be a mistake and might possibly decrease them, would imho be a great thing.

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 10:40 AM
Not to mention merely getting an increase to AC for Imp Uncanny Dodge is kinda weak considering how many rogue levels you have to take to get it.

The combination of all these Turbine made up numbers is throwing many game options in the crapper. Turbineflation must end. Hlaf damage on a fail isnt worth it?

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 10:41 AM
I still have not run into these 50+ DC traps saves on elite everyone mentions... And i have not been slack in trying to find them..

My Save Vs traps Without help from others is + 37 before IUD and buffs with out any gimpige to my combat ability.. After buffs (Which most of the time I have) I am certain it is higher but unsure what that number is... I have not been failing vs traps on elite unless I roll a 1..

Coldin
02-19-2008, 10:43 AM
Thats the exact reason Im hoping it is an implimentation mistake. Turbine is continually making up, cranking out and upping all these figures. Any that might possibly be a mistake and might possibly decrease them, would imho be a great thing.

Perhaps we should focus on getting the devs to look at crazy HP boosts fighters and dwarves get from toughness, the damage casters get from enhancements and spell crits, and mobs with ridiculous to-hits before we start trying to find ways for them to nerf an already underpowered class.


The combination of all these Turbine made up numbers is throwing many game options in the crapper. Turbineflation must end.

It's just kinda funny you feel that this must begin with rogues.

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 10:51 AM
It's just kinda funny you feel that this must begin with rogues.

Its my favorite class.:) Could care less about the others.;) This is coming from an over all game health stance and also a person with 2 Mc rogues who will have 10+rogue levels.

binnsr
02-19-2008, 11:18 AM
Not to mention merely getting an increase to AC for Imp Uncanny Dodge is kinda weak considering how many rogue levels you have to take to get it.
The combination of all these Turbine made up numbers is throwing many game options in the crapper. Turbineflation must end. Hlaf damage on a fail isnt worth it?

IUD doesn't reduce the damage taken on a failed save .. that's Improved Evasion you're thinking about :)

Raithe
02-19-2008, 11:19 AM
My Save Vs traps Without help from others is + 37 before IUD and buffs with out any gimpige to my combat ability

Claims like this are the source of all the contention and problems, and are probably the reason that the DCs were messed up.

There is no way to achieve a +37 unbuffed save against traps without a trade-off in abilities that a rogue should find useful, and it most definitely impairs combat ability to some degree.

Glad you like your build. Most people don't.

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 11:20 AM
IUD doesn't reduce the damage taken on a failed save .. that's Improved Evasion you're thinking about :)

Ah yes, in my torrent of spam, I made that small error.:)

binnsr
02-19-2008, 11:38 AM
Claims like this are the source of all the contention and problems, and are probably the reason that the DCs were messed up.

There is no way to achieve a +37 unbuffed save against traps without a trade-off in abilities that a rogue should find useful, and it most definitely impairs combat ability to some degree.

That's kind of a loaded statement .. Getting any character to a point where they do 'well' in one area is going to come at a sacrifice to others.. As an example, those 3 levels of paladin for +9 to all saves (+11 to fortitude) cost you 1d6 sneak attack, a rogue special ability and the +4 innate trap sense bonus. In exchange, you get +2 ac, 2 LoH (the ones my rogue has heal 84 each), the aforementioned save bonuses and martial weapon proficiencies.

Just off the top of my head, I put together a halfling 13rog/3pal that has a +48 standing reflex save (in traps) at the expenditure of 1 feat (luck of heroes) and 42 ap (+5 dexterity, +1 charisma, Pally RoG I, Halfling Luck III (Reflex), Improved Trap Sense IV and extra LoH I). That's a pretty decent AP expenditure, yes, but with 22 left, you can take +2 in DD, Search and Spot, SAA I, SAT II, subtle BackStabber III and Rogue Item Defense II. I wouldn't call that gimped, and that's a saves-dedicated rogue who didn't sacrifice rogue skills or combat ability.

STROBE
02-19-2008, 11:48 AM
NEW Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 8 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.

Um, I should be banned for what I am THINKING about this. No, I mean it. Really.

Oh wait. I get it. Its a joke, right? Ha, ha. You got me. You're being playful.

No? You say you are serious?

So, lets see, store up action points for two entire levels, so you can raise everyone's AC by 1.

Is that love, or is that sick, sick, sick abuse? You make the call.

Here's a little friendly suggestion, Mr. Moderator. You go take it off the WDA before I COME OVER THERE!

Impaqt
02-19-2008, 11:52 AM
I still have not run into these 50+ DC traps saves on elite everyone mentions... And i have not been slack in trying to find them..

My Save Vs traps Without help from others is + 37 before IUD and buffs with out any gimpige to my combat ability.. After buffs (Which most of the time I have) I am certain it is higher but unsure what that number is... I have not been failing vs traps on elite unless I roll a 1..

Temple of Vol is VERY easy to test.... The Blade traps on teh RIght side are a 50.... Go test em.... You wont take Damage because they are bugged right now..... Just look at your combat log.

Thrudh
02-19-2008, 11:54 AM
So now I cant do the trapsmithing I was once fully specced and able to do and obviously cant handle the role of a full caster due to my MC levels in most situations and you think this is a good thing. Ive never had any problem getting a group for my rogues, making trapsmith pure only isnt going to help you, trust me. lol

First off, you can still disable all the traps that don't require you to run through the trap first... so you're still 60-80% effective...

Secondly, as a wizard/rogue... perhaps the Insightful Reflexes feat might help you...

My bard/rogue is facing the same problems as you (although Insightful Reflexes will not help me)... I like the change, personally...

Pure Rogues should be able to stand in traps whistling a tune while they disarm...

I do think that us multi-class rogues, if we spend the feats and enhancement points, should be able to be effective as well though...

Personally, I like the new Trap Sense enhancement changes, but I'd also like to see elite trap DCs maybe drop by 3-4 points as well... That give us a multi-class a very good chance, while making traps easy for the pure rogues (which is how it should be, IMHO)

UtherSRG
02-19-2008, 11:58 AM
NEW Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 8 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.

Um, I should be banned for what I am THINKING about this. No, I mean it. Really.

Its a joke, right? Ha, ha. You got me. You're being playful.

No, wait. You say you are serious?

So, lets see, store up action points for two entire levels, so you can raise everyone's AC by 1.

Is that love, or is that sick, sick, sick abuse? You make the call.

Here's a little friendly suggestion, Mr. Moderator. You go take it off the WDA before I COME OVER THERE!

Simma down...


But really, take a look at the progression for BoG. 8 APs is correct and should have been expected. But if you think you have to store up 2 levels worth of APs to get this, you aren't playing the Enhancement game well. There's a good chance of eventually finding a tome that's +1 better than the one you've already eaten for either CHA or WIS. Eat it and buy back 6APs that you already spent on increasing that stat. Now you only need to spend an additional 2 APs to get this enhancement.

And no, I'm not being flippant. I run 4 characters through the Reaver raid every 3 days. Each of them has eaten 2 +3 tomes, plus 3-4 +2 or +1 tomes. Hrm... I believe either my Cleric or Bard are due for their 40th run tomorrow.... with the other getting their 40th on Saturday...

STROBE
02-19-2008, 11:59 AM
That was the primary reason we didn't create Bulwark of Good IV previously, but decided to make it available in case someone really wanted it.

Cause he/she would be really, really special.

Oh, wait. My bad. I am SO sorry. I forgot how oh so very, very precious 1 point of AC is in this game.

Shaamis
02-19-2008, 12:01 PM
RE: x5+ Crit Multiplier bursts

We're covering our bases. The Deepwood Sniper enhancement allows you to increase your crit threat multiplier by one, and I expect that tech to be used elsewhere in the future.


There's also the bit about Divine Righteousness now lasting a minute. Most of the enhancement work thus far has been Monk/Rogue related, though. You'll see more in future WDA's.

In the higher end (aka Epic HB, and even before that?) there are feats that help increase teh weapons crit multiplier. this was usually restricted to certain prestige classes, but once the tech is implemented, could become a staple of a specialty class enhancement.

Bring on Mercurial Greatswords/Axes, with mproved crit multiplier!

<YAY!>and there was much rejoicing<YAY!>

STROBE
02-19-2008, 12:06 PM
Simma down...


But really, take a look at the progression for BoG. 8 APs is correct and should have been expected. But if you think you have to store up 2 levels worth of APs to get this, you aren't playing the Enhancement game well. There's a good chance of eventually finding a tome that's +1 better than the one you've already eaten for either CHA or WIS. Eat it and buy back 6APs that you already spent on increasing that stat. Now you only need to spend an additional 2 APs to get this enhancement.

And no, I'm not being flippant. I run 4 characters through the Reaver raid every 3 days. Each of them has eaten 2 +3 tomes, plus 3-4 +2 or +1 tomes. Hrm... I believe either my Cleric or Bard are due for their 40th run tomorrow.... with the other getting their 40th on Saturday...

Being Flippant. Funny you should mention that. I was thinking impertinent. Absurd. Beyond belief.

But really? But really, you say. How about YOU but really this... YOU take a look at the indisputable fact that it takes two entire levels to earn 8 action points. Aint none of your New Math gonna change that F A C T.

I only play 3 hours a night 6 nights a weak. And what you just said above sounds like gibberish to me. But, heh, what do I know? I've only been playing a paladin in DDO for two years. I should have played a paladin as long as you have.

But don't mind little ol' impractical me. You have a nice day with your 158th, 159th, and 160th Reaver raid run, now, you hear? It sounds like SO much fun!

Well there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. We paladins need to run the Reaver raid 40 times, as a prequalification, and then we can become worthy of our new enhancement.

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 12:11 PM
Claims like this are the source of all the contention and problems, and are probably the reason that the DCs were messed up.

There is no way to achieve a +37 unbuffed save against traps without a trade-off in abilities that a rogue should find useful, and it most definitely impairs combat ability to some degree.

Glad you like your build. Most people don't.

Your wrong...

It is Easy..

Human At level 16 Rogue 32 Dex
Base +21 Save
Spectacular Optics +4
+25 Save
Rabbit Gloves +1
26 Save
+5 from trap sense
31 Reflex save
4 levels of trap sense enhancement +4
35
Potion of Heroism +2
37 Reflex save

Quite easy.. With no feats for it and I still have all the sneak attack enhancements & human Versatility III

In a Pinch i could get my reflex save to a +47 for a short time with no outside help..(Human versatility and IUD)


No feats used to help for my saves, took two-weapon fighting feats and weapon finesse

Raithe
02-19-2008, 12:21 PM
Just off the top of my head, I put together a halfling 13rog/3pal that has a +48 standing reflex save (in traps) at the expenditure of 1 feat (luck of heroes) and 42 ap (+5 dexterity, +1 charisma, Pally RoG I, Halfling Luck III (Reflex), Improved Trap Sense IV and extra LoH I). That's a pretty decent AP expenditure, yes, but with 22 left, you can take +2 in DD, Search and Spot, SAA I, SAT II, subtle BackStabber III and Rogue Item Defense II.

Let's see:

1) Being a halfling means you do 1 less damage per hit than you would have (-2 str).
2) If you have a decent dex, intelligence (for searching and disabling), and charisma - your strength is probably not that good. Even less damage per hit.
3) Your spot and search may not be good enough for elite content unless you have a race restricted, skill-dedicated item. If you are going to metagame the trap locations, then guess what? You can metagame getting through them, too.
4) You don't have Human Versatility, and you don't list Skill Action Boost in your AP expenditures. There are probably several traps that will be difficult to find, and some that you'll have a chance to blow up.

Note that this is using a paladin/rogue (which I believe to be a broken aspect of the game), and you still are making trade-offs. My statement wasn't loaded... I was showing how the statement I quoted was.


I wouldn't call that gimped, and that's a saves-dedicated rogue who didn't sacrifice rogue skills or combat ability.

A halfling pure paladin who is strength-based will probably have around a 28 reflex save against traps - even with halfling luck and reflex enhancements. If you gear the game towards the paladin/rogue you built, you make the investments of the other build much less useful. This is one of the many large problems with the current overpowered enhancement system.

Spectralist
02-19-2008, 12:22 PM
It's funny you should mention those.

Why do some spellcasters get metamagic enhancements but others don't?

Because the enhancement system is class based, whereas it should be based on what abilities you have. At least that's my interpretation of the problem.

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 12:28 PM
I see a few are under the misconception you have to over build to get the traps and be a good combat rogue in DDO..

Traps are easy to find an disable with out spending any AP or Feats.. you just need good items and a decent stats... 14 is good for Int and Wis (After items)..

Except for 1 Trap!!!... not worth over building for that 1 trap..

Getting your reflex save high for a Full rogue is easy with minimal expenditure of AP,, 10 AP

You can go 2 ways with rogues.. Str or Dex... Most of the Dmg from a rogue comes from sneak attacks so a Str rogue since he has no enhancements to help with crits (As a full rogue) does very little more dmg then a Dex based rogue..

Now I did spend Enhancements on Search on and Spot for 3 levels.. But I am unsure if i even had to. Both skills are in the 40s before buffs..

Raithe
02-19-2008, 12:29 PM
Human At level 16 Rogue 32 Dex
Base +21 Save
Spectacular Optics +4
+25 Save
Rabbit Gloves +1
26 Save
+5 from trap sense
31 Reflex save
4 levels of trap sense enhancement +4
35
Potion of Heroism +2
37 Reflex save


First of all, you don't get the potion of heroism. This is unbuffed we are talking about, so you are short.

Second, are you honestly claiming that there are no trade-offs in this build? Wow... binnsr came much closer by using a paladin rogue (like everyone does...:(). A 32 dex on a human is by its very nature a trade-off in combat ability, saves, and charisma-based abilities. Using 22 action points and having to wear rabbit gloves and reflex save goggles on top of that is something more than just a trade-off...

Impaqt
02-19-2008, 12:30 PM
Let's see:
3) Your spot and search may not be good enough for elite content unless you have a race restricted, skill-dedicated item. If you are going to metagame the trap locations, then guess what? You can metagame getting through them, too.


I'm not sure where the Myth that Halflings (or any Race that doesnt get Spot/Search Bonus') came from...

19 Ranks
13 Ite (should be easy to get now)
4 Greater Heroism
---
36

That covers about 98% Of the traps in the game..... Even on Elite......

Hopefully you can get your wisdom up to 14 if need be, thats 2 more, Spend 3 Actin Points on Spot ENH gets ya 2 more, Prayer Scroll is +1 thats 41.... Now your at 99.9%

Just the Cabal Trap on elite Exceeds a 41 Spot.

Search wise..

19 Ranks
13 Item
4 INT (ANd I feel thats Low.. Most rogues shouldhit +5 or +6)
4 Greter Hero
2 Enhancments
3 Boost (Just Skill Boost 2)
---
45 Search... again.. Hitting that 98% mark....
1 Prayer
1 Find Traps
---
47

Its really not that hard.......

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 12:40 PM
First of all, you don't get the potion of heroism. This is unbuffed we are talking about, so you are short.

Second, are you honestly claiming that there are no trade-offs in this build? Wow... binnsr came much closer by using a paladin rogue (like everyone does...:(). A 32 dex on a human is by its very nature a trade-off in combat ability, saves, and charisma-based abilities. Using 22 action points and having to wear rabbit gloves and reflex save goggles on top of that is something more than just a trade-off...

Not a trade off on Combat ability at all...Weapon finesse so I use Dex to hit.. I never miss on a Sneak attack... Never.. Even on Elite.. Str does minimal Dmg compared to sneak attack Dmg... even with a Crit.. so I only need my Str of 16 to carry more items.. I have a 18 Chr... UMD is not a problem for what I use it for... Healing myself.. and Some other helpfull wands and scrolls.

I actually said I can get my save up to 37 witout help from others .. I did count Self Buffage... I ment Without Other people buffing me..

Now I will give you Saves.. My Will sav and Fort Save are not the best in the world.. and I get hurt on that sometimes.. They usually hover around the +15 range i think..

And how are the goggles and Gloves a trade off?.. When I need to spot.. I put on my Spot goggles and put on my boots of innocence instead of striding boots.. I only wear the gloves at this time because I have not really got anything I really needed to replace them..

All this done with out Raid Loot...Except 1.. the bracers from Reaver.. THough there are some raid loot that would make me better... But I am still a Force to reckon with On Combat with sneak attack Dmg.. It is all about aggro control so you get the most out of your sneak attacks

Raithe
02-19-2008, 12:40 PM
Traps are easy to find an disable with out spending any AP or Feats..
you just need good items and a decent stats... 14 is good for Int and Wis (After items)..


The spike trap above the ladder in the final climb in elite VoN 5 has a search DC of 40. A level 14 halfling will not be able to search it out with only +2 enhancements, a 14 intelligence, and a regular +13 search item...

Search
17 base
2 int
13 item
2 enhancements
4 gh
--------------
38

Raithe
02-19-2008, 12:47 PM
19 Ranks
13 Ite (should be easy to get now)
4 Greater Heroism
---
36

That covers about 98% Of the traps in the game..... Even on Elite......


No, it doesn't cover 98% of the level-appropriate traps in the game. You seem to be misinformed, but I can understand that. The whole playerbase has gotten used to running through traps rather than bothering with disabling since Mod 3.3.

This change is not likely to make that situation better.

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 12:50 PM
The spike trap above the ladder in the final climb in elite VoN 5 has a search DC of 40. A level 14 halfling will not be able to search it out with only +2 enhancements, a 14 intelligence, and a regular +13 search item...

Search
17 base
2 int
13 item
2 enhancements
4 gh
--------------
38

Like I said Was unsure about Enhancements..I said 14 But i could be wrong since I always had a 18 Int and I was under the impression that the hardest search was around 36 Can anyone else confirm the 40 DC for that trap to search for?... and +13 items Drop like candy.. I almost get them every quest.. They are easy to get.. Now +15 items are hard to get.. I only have a +15 Search and Spot item..Only 2 I ever found...

I myself Never had problem with that trap on elite...

Edit: That all said.. I could be wrong with my numbers on my character they could have been higher then I thought by a few.. Not always paying attention because I never have to.. I am just trying to point out it takes minimal effort to build a rogue that can be great at combat and traps... even amazing at combat and great at traps.. to many people over build.. Though there are a few items i would love to have.. but that is all i am missing a few items.. which does not effect my build

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 12:53 PM
No, it doesn't cover 98% of the level-appropriate traps in the game. You seem to be misinformed, but I can understand that. The whole playerbase has gotten used to running through traps rather than bothering with disabling since Mod 3.3.

This change is not likely to make that situation better.
I search for every trap I fall into that i Can disable (some have no boxes)... and until level 16 I did not have a 40+ to search.. I have done all the quests except the abbot and a few of mod 6 on elite and never missed a trap excpet for 1 trap(the crazy 1).. I think your numbers are off...

Hambo
02-19-2008, 12:53 PM
halfling sneak attacks just got obnoxiously better.

+8 from halfling guile, +8 for a +5 backstab weapon, and +12 from rogue sneak attack training = +26 per backstab before any dice are thrown - that's more than some classes do in total damage on a swing.

Happy day to you, Rameses.

My 6 Rogues are all doing the happy dance :D:D:D

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 12:55 PM
My 6 Rogues are all doing the happy dance :D:D:D


LOL.. that is allot of halfling rogues...

EinarMal
02-19-2008, 01:01 PM
LOL.. that is allot of halfling rogues...

What is really crazy is that a halfling with only 4 levels of Rogue would get 2d6 +6(Rogue Sneak Damage II) + 8(Halfling) +8(Weapon) or +29 average damage per swing from 4 levels of Rogue....It takes a lot of action points to do it though.

binnsr
02-19-2008, 01:02 PM
Let's see:

1) Being a halfling means you do 1 less damage per hit than you would have (-2 str). Finesse characters typically don't worry as much about the str bonuses - and an 18 is just fine for carrying stuff
2) If you have a decent dex, intelligence (for searching and disabling), and charisma - your strength is probably not that good. Even less damage per hit. see above
3) Your spot and search may not be good enough for elite content unless you have a race restricted, skill-dedicated item. If you are going to metagame the trap locations, then guess what? You can metagame getting through them, too. there's no need for race restricted items. i've picked up several +15 non-RR items since mod6 went live .. as for spot, my current rogue with BW goggles of spot +10 and 18 ranks in Spot has a 36 (meeting the current HWM for spot)
4) You don't have Human Versatility, and you don't list Skill Action Boost in your AP expenditures. There are probably several traps that will be difficult to find, and some that you'll have a chance to blow up.You don't need skiill boosts to meet (or exceed) the requirements for the traps in this game.


http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pbhnEIQeNXoTbXGm6_4qxEQ&hl=en_GB
This build is right where he needs to be for the high water marks (with the exception of the Cabal trap).. it exceeds the hwm for both spot and search and is within 2 of the hwm for disable.

I don't agree with how high the DCs are currently, but I also don't think that the sky just fell either..

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 01:24 PM
I just checked.. Before Buffs from others (Almost always buffed)
At level 16

Spot 42(44 Hero)
Search 42(44 Hero)
Disable 49 (51 Hero)

Obviously at lower levels those skills where lower and I did have to do some changes to get my spot high enough..(never with feats)

But Items a few enhancements was all I ever needed. You don't need to build with everything to getting traps unless you want the one cabal trap...Buffs may be need for some builds (Rogues with a High Str maybe).

All my feats are combat related and I have all the sneak attack enhancements... so they were not gimped to build this guy..

*Other races and MC rogues may experience other side effects :D;):p

Raithe
02-19-2008, 01:24 PM
as for spot, my current rogue with BW goggles of spot +10 and 18 ranks in Spot has a 36 (meeting the current HWM for spot)

No wonder I keep running into rogues who can't spot traps... there is some serious misinformation running around.

Most of Gianthold (Feast or Famine, Cry for Help, Foundation of Discord, Maze of Madness) have spot and search requirements in the 40s on elite. Foundation of Discord, like Cabal, also has a trap with a really high disable requirement (or maybe its broken). I know that Fleshmaker's Lab exceeds a 36 search on elite because my bard/rogue could only get to 36 before Mod 6. I believe even the Twilight Forge has a 40+ DC trap on elite.

I haven't tested Temple of Vol, but I'm sure it's up there... maybe I'll go test it now (it's quite easy to get to).

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 01:27 PM
No wonder I keep running into rogues who can't spot traps... there is some serious misinformation running around.

Most of gianthold (Cry for Help, Foundation of Discord, Maze of Madness) have spot and search requirements in the 40s on elite. Foundation of Discord, like Cabal, also has a trap with a really high disable requirement (or maybe its broken). I know that Fleshmaker's Lab exceeds a 36 search on elite because my bard/rogue could only get to 36 before Mod 6.

I haven't tested Temple of Vol, but I'm sure it's up there... maybe I'll go test it now (it's quite easy to get to).


Your the misinformed one.. I know for a fact I did not have a spot of above 38 for most of my level 14 experience.. and I never missed spot or search on those quests on elite.. Except for that cabal trap..

Edit: Weeeeeeeeee he said/ she said arguments are fun...:D I know my experience.. Just because you had a 40+ spot on elite at level 14 in those quests does not mean you needed it.

binnsr
02-19-2008, 01:29 PM
No wonder I keep running into rogues who can't spot traps... there is some serious misinformation running around.

Most of Ggianthold (Cry for Help, Foundation of Discord, Maze of Madness) have spot and search requirements in the 40s on elite. Foundation of Discord, like Cabal, also has a trap with a really high disable requirement (or maybe its broken). I know that Fleshmaker's Lab exceeds a 36 search on elite because my bard/rogue could only get to 36 before Mod 6. I believe even the Twilight Forge has a 40+ DC trap on elite.

I haven't tested Temple of Vol, but I'm sure it's up there... maybe I'll go test it now (it's quite easy to get to).


If you've got different information than is found in cforce's thread, please update that thread.. I have yet to *not* spot the trap and the only time I've failed a search was when I got cocky and didn't equip my search goggles (I almost never use my Int ring or wisdom hat because they're just not needed).



High Water Marks
How high do DC's go? This frequently changes, and all the numbers here should be taken as "what the community currently thinks they are", and not absolute gospel. While I keep track of new observations that folks post on the forums (as well as my own experiences), there's no guarantee that some of these haven't been changed, nor that people haven't occasionally made mistakes while gathering data. But, to my knowledge, it represents the best data the community has on the different values.

*Cabal Trap*
Editorial: This trap guards a single chest, and has DCs on Elite that are silly-high enough that your party won't expect you to be able to disarm it -- all they lose is a chest, and the DCs are simply too high for all but the most trap-optimized builds to achieve.
Disable Device: 75-76 DC.
Search: <= 56 DC Has been found after recent update with as low as a 56 Search, but may be yet lower.

*Everything Else*
Disable Device: at least +56 modifier for 0% chance of blowing traps. Aurum Lair trap with DC at least 61.
Open Locks: +39-48 modifier. Locked door in Fleshmaker's Lab, has been failed on a total 58, and succeeded on a total 68.
Search: <44? (traps)/ 45-48 (secret doors) VoN 4 secret door has been reported as 45-48 DC on Elite. Second highest trap (after Cabal) in Gianthold has not been discussed veyr much, but SableShadow has been steadily pushing the envelope and hasn't run into trouble with a Search of 44.
Spot: 35-36 Maze of Madness, Cry for Help, Feast or Famine on Elite requires a Spot of 35 or 36 to spot traps.

* - I use 'modifier' rather than 'skill' on Open and Disable because the Tools contribution will not be reflected on your character sheet when you look at your skill tab, but will only be added into the modifier at the time of the die roll. Note that also due to the die rolls, I've cited modifiers below the DC's -- in the case of open locks, you can reroll until you get a 20. In the case of disable device, you can reroll until you get (DC - 5) or lower, at which point the trap blows, so a modifier 5 under the DC will always get you the trap eventually. Slightly off-topic, but important to know: you will use whichever tools are "first" - ie, top left corner, first inventory tab is your 'first inventory slot'. ( Last edited by cforce : 01-23-2008 at 08:57 AM.)

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 01:32 PM
I've failed a search was when I got cocky and didn't equip my search goggles

Eeek.. i have done that.. That sucks... what is even worse is when you forget to put on your disable device item right after saying.. "No worries I never fail.......BOOM!*... oh... I forgot to put on my item *red face*"

Raithe
02-19-2008, 01:36 PM
If you've got different information than is found in cforce's thread, please update that thread.. I have yet to *not* spot the trap and the only time I've failed a search was when I got cocky and didn't equip my search goggles (I almost never use my Int ring or wisdom hat because they're just not needed).

( Last edited by cforce : 01-23-2008 at 08:57 AM.)

I keep forgetting that their spot DCs are lower than their search (which makes absolutely no sense), so ya, you may be right about spot.

Search is the important one, and cforce's information seems accurate to me. I would even drop his 44 estimate 1 or 2 points.

Talon_Moonshadow
02-19-2008, 01:38 PM
This might not be the best place, but since such a large number of people are debating the multi-classed rogue/trap DC thing, I will add my 2cp.

My main toon is a multi-classed rogue who prior to MOD6 had done every quest on elite except the abbot and pre-raid (still need that last sigil piece :( )
He's also done the new 5 vale quest on normal and one on hard.

So.....lot of past experiance with being amulti-classed rogue.

I also have an up and coming lvl7 pure rogue.

For the las two years, everyone on these forums have complained that splash rogues can do traps just as good as pure rogues, and made their opinion about how wrong that is known to the devs.
Obvioulsy to me the increase in trap DCs was an attempt to satisfy some of those complaints, and now that they see some problems with it, the new enhancements are an attempt to set things right.

I personally do not have a problem with designing dungeons in a way to give a pure rogue an advantage..

But what bothers me is that by retrofitting past dungeons, the devs have created a situation where you have to have a pure, dex based, specially maxed out super high reflex save pure rogue with all the trimmings trap monkey................just to complete the quest. (think STK)
This is not right.

Yeah, you can say "you dont have to do elite".....but you do....or you will not get the favor.

And what if your rogue blows up the box?.............well game over......quest cannot be completed.
Thats not right.

So far, I have yet to see a quest that most pure rogues can do that my multi-classed rogue cannot.......even now.
And I would really really hate it if yet another change to the game ruins my favorite character (again).

Human versitility nerfed......I've learned to do without.
fire walls scrolls and DD scrolls gone.....I've learned to do without.
Cloudkill scrolls gone, and cloudkill nerfed..........all my casters have learned to do without. ( the kill part of cloudkill now refers to your caster)
Cap raised from 10........new stuff available that makes pure classes more desirable.....I've learned to do without.

Well......IMO this change does not gimp multi-classed rogues as much as it gimps all rogues into being built a certain way to handle the new traps.

right now IMO there is only one feasable rogue.....the one with the maxed reflex save......maxed even more than is currently possible IMO.

In PnP a rogue's strength is his ability to do a large number of things well........in DDO he seems to have only one purpose.
Not right.

Dev's plz give other uses for skills in the dungeons.
And plz make them and traps with huge DCs optionals......(and plz make the optional rewards very very good)

dragnmoon
02-19-2008, 01:38 PM
I keep forgetting that their spot DCs are lower than their search (which makes absolutely no sense), so ya, you may be right about spot.

Search is the important one, and cforce's information seems accurate to me. I would even drop his 44 estimate 1 or 2 points.

yay... you Finally see the light :D..

You could be right on the search... I know now I have no problem with search now... But I do remember a few rare occasions I need a GH... Rare...

Oh and.. there are a few quests *Raids not included* that I did on elite before the HV nerf... so that may effect my experience of lower levels..

I think the biggest problem right now is not the High level characters since they are at the point that it takes minimal work to get the ability to search/spot/disable... but that the low levels can't meet the requirements on the level appropriate quests on elite... with out serious Gimpege to other abilities..

Much of my experience at those levels where different because the requirements where different.

Taerdra
02-19-2008, 01:50 PM
What is really crazy is that a halfling with only 4 levels of Rogue would get 2d6 +6(Rogue Sneak Damage II) + 8(Halfling) +8(Weapon) or +29 average damage per swing from 4 levels of Rogue....It takes a lot of action points to do it though.

Aye, to me, this is the interesting thing about the new enhancements... Conan-type Halfling Barb/Rogue anyone?