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Thrudh
02-13-2008, 09:26 PM
Kay... so I go into VON 5 on hard (not elite)... just to test out these traps...

My trapsmith is a drow bard/rogue... 12/3... but pretty dedicated to the roguely arts... I started with an 18 Int and I have Disable, Spot, and Search all maxed out (Open Lock nearly maxed), along with Rogue I Spot and Search enhancements, and Drow II Spot and Search enhancements...

So I'm fairly serious about my role as the trapsmith....

My Dex is 24 (+7)
My Reflex saves are +8 from bard, +3 from Rogue = +11
I get +1 Trap Sense from 3rd level of Rogue
I have +3 Resistance Item
I have +4 Greater Heroism
I have +2 Head of Good Fortune
I have +1 from parrying weapon
I have +1 from Haste

Total Reflex save: 30

After several deaths running through the hallway with the lightning traps and the spinning blades, I have narrowed down the DCs... I failed on a 9 and saved on a 12... so figure around a 40 DC for a level 10 quest on hard....

Now, I plan on re-arranging my enhancements after I make 16th level... I'll probably be able to gain two points of Dex... I'll spend an Action Point for Trap Sense I.... I'll scour the Auction House for a +5 resistance item.... and maybe I'll get to the point where I only need a 6 or higher to save... which in that room... probably means death... Failing 1 out of 3 rolls for 80-100 points of damage a shot means I'm worthless as a rogue in that quest... even at 16th level with the best gear possible.

Now for those of you who say, "Well hey!, you're not a pure rogue!"... Let's take a hypothetical 11th level rogue into this room... (Pretty reasonable for a 11th level pure rogue to try VON 5 on hard don't you think?)

30 Dex (28 more likely, but let's be generous) +10
7 Reflex saves from 11 levels of Rogue
+3 Trap Sense from 11 levels of Rogue
+4 Trap Blast Goggles
+4 GH
+1 parrying weapon
+1 Haste
+3 Trap Sense enhancements

Total Reflex save: 33

Again, failing on a 6, maybe a 7 or lower... 80-100 points of damage per missed save.... Yeah, that rogue (who is FOCUSED on being on a trapsmith) won't be of much use in there.... You have to make a dozen saves while disarming those traps... Maybe with a dedicated healer... Maybe using up all of your Improved Uncanny Dodges (11th level rogue gets 3 or 4 of those for 20 seconds each?)

And that 30 Dex is almost required... Forget ever making a strength based rogue who can do traps... Cookie-cutter class suddenly...

I'm usually a big cheerleader for the devs... I believe the traps that you have to run through (or stand in!!) are too hard... please review your DCs...

Roll up a test 11th level Rogue, take him into VON5, and see if you feel like a master of traps... The one time you get to shine in full public view... and you die 2-3 times.... yeah that gives you a good reputation, and makes you feel proud of your character.

ThrasherGT
02-13-2008, 09:45 PM
In your second example You conveniently left out any resistance item. Even a +4 would give You a 37 and cut Your failure rate in half...........I do agree, However, that the trap DC's are a bit high at the moment....................

Thrudh
02-13-2008, 09:48 PM
In your second example You conveniently left out any resistance item. Even a +4 would give You a 37 and cut Your failure rate in half...........I do agree, However, that the trap DC's are a bit high at the moment....................

No, the Trap Blast Goggles are a +4 Reflex save (resistance item), so that was included (but I didn't make it clear... sorry)

Oran_Lathor
02-13-2008, 09:50 PM
+4 Trap Blast Goggles


Those are a +4 resistance bonus to reflex.

llevenbaxx
02-14-2008, 07:26 AM
Yeah, it seems the game has shifted focus as far as traps are concerned. Skill ranks in w/e skill mean little to nothing, its all about "save or die". Also, Im sure someone will point out that you dont even really have to get hit by any of the traps. You can jump over the lightning(wearing prot jus in case) and sit in the sweet spots while disabling.

I personnally think it is rather bad design/direction in a D&D game but years upon years of FPS/NHL200X/madden/RL sports etc etc has given me freakish hand eye coordination, now its just a matter of figuring the new sweet spots and tricks... also poor game design imo(makes tricks and sweet spots more important than build). You just kind of have to "research" the traps you dont know, get them down on norm, having to make a minimal amount of saves in the process. Its possible, just a little more annoying imo. Overall I would say this has made playing my rogues a little less fun. Traps were never the main focus of any of my rogues builds though,they were just something I did along the way. After all the hubbub I guess its just a new sort of challenge to my type of rogue(must be a glass is half full day:)).

Mavnimo
02-14-2008, 07:55 AM
just wanted to also note the 11 rogue lvls also gives improved evasion cutting the damage in half. rabbit gloves are also another option for +1 more. I personally love the fact that pure rogues/pure dedicated trapsmiths, will make quests easier.

I laughed really hard when I took my 10/3/3 fighter/pally/rogue thru von3 elite and the door force trap killed me with a +39 reflex. I have nearly 400 hp was a little low from zerging and then POW!! failed what i think is a dc 42-45 trap, I did roll low 2 and 3 I think, took 150 or so damage twice.

Von 5 elite I made sure we had a rogue for the traps. I still tested the traps, around a 40-45 dc on those aswell. I love the new dc and damage of elite traps.

miceelf88
02-14-2008, 08:44 AM
I REALLY wish the devs would at least talk briefly about this. Even to say they're thinking about it, or that they're not going to consider changing or whatever. The silence is deafening. People have started numerous threads, and for the most part have been very civil and supportive. But this is really getting annoying. Can't we get some kind of response from teh devs on this issue?

Aladon
02-14-2008, 12:47 PM
I REALLY wish the devs would at least talk briefly about this. Even to say they're thinking about it, or that they're not going to consider changing or whatever. The silence is deafening. People have started numerous threads, and for the most part have been very civil and supportive. But this is really getting annoying. Can't we get some kind of response from teh devs on this issue?

QFT.

No one is complaining that trap damage went up. That is a good fix.

Almost everyone agrees that the increase in trap damage shouldn't extend to traps that can't be disabled. This seems self-evidently foolish and more likely to be an unintended consequence of the above than an actual design decision.

There is debate on trap DC's. It seems that the core of the debate is the 'sweet spot' of DC's for a given quest and difficulty level. Yes, there is some advocacy of the benefits of learning 'safe spots', et al but this is exactly the kind of meta-game thinking that already plagues DDO. Based on my experience and the discussions I've read, DC's have been adjusted to be too high. Perhaps there is a middle ground, above the old levels but well below these current ones? I know that my WIZ9/ROG1 won't be taking his second ROG level for evasion until DC's get to a level where evasion will help him. This seems contrary to Turbine's apparent desire to require MORE of trap responsive toons.

In any event, I wholeheartedly agree with MiceElf. Turbine, what was your intent here? Are you satisfied that these are the outcomes you'd intended to create or can you consider that perhaps you've moved the slider too far in the correct direction. This is causing many of us frustration and draining fun from the game. We'd like to hear from you.

With respect,

Aladon

xanvar
02-14-2008, 12:51 PM
I could be wrong but I didn't see uncanny dodge or improved uncanny dodge in your break down.

Angelus_dead
02-14-2008, 12:58 PM
Von 5 elite I made sure we had a rogue for the traps. I still tested the traps, around a 40-45 dc on those aswell. I love the new dc and damage of elite traps.
Why is it good that a level 8 rogue is more than enough on VON5 normal, but a level 16 rogue can barely manage elite?

Would you also like it if the monsters were improved so it takes more than one single level 14 barb to clear them all?

ahpook
02-14-2008, 01:01 PM
Agree with the OP. Making traps require a level of specialization that requires sacrifice to the rest of the build is not the way to make rogues more popular. It might make them neccesary for a few parts of quests but exclude them from fully participating in the other 99% of the game content. Make more rogues useful by utilizing their breadth of skills and not the depth of the trapsmithing. We have already seen that multi class rogues can have that kind of depth.

Disabling traps is NOT the most enjoyable part of playing a rogue and if I have to give up combat capability to acheive it, I will retire him.

ArkoHighStar
02-14-2008, 01:05 PM
This is where the multiclass splash rogues are starting to have some difficulty, and while I agree that maybe right now they are too high for everyone, if they come down it should not be to their previous levels.
There is a reaosn why full rogues get improved evasion, and improved uncanny dodge and extra trap sense bonuses. An elite trap should challenge a full rogue but should be regularly beatable if well specced, it should hurt a splash rogue who has the skills to disable the trap but simply does not have enough saves to beat the damage.

So bring on higher dc's if full rogues now have an advantage The simple fact is given equal race and levl and dex, a full rogue can hit a 9 better reflex save than any trapsmith multiclass, add in the enhancement bonuses and you are looking at 12

+5 trap sense at 15
+4 improved uncanny dodge(lvl 8) and uncanny dodge(lvl 4)
+3 trap sense ehancement(max is +4 but anyone who takes 1 lvl of rogue gets accessto the first lvl enhancement)

This is on top of items buffs etc, only a rogue can get these bonuses

Heladron
02-14-2008, 01:07 PM
I want the devs coding up new, fun ways to kill our characters. We'll keep figuring out new ways to survive. So far we've always managed to find some way to avoid dying. We outnumber them by a lot.

Stop whining and get to playing. Just think of how much uber your rogue would be if you weren't in here complaining about trap DCs. :)

I have a trap monkey rogue up and coming to live/die in the traps. Don't tell anybody though because I always jump into the melee just to pretend so that people don't go, "Oh, you're on of those rogues that put all your skill points in rogue skills. You should have made a wannabe fighter or cleric rogue that can raise the party if you haven't already died by getting hit by the 45DC trap." Sometimes I get lucky enough and out damage the melees and have to run for help to the casters.

Avonwey
02-14-2008, 01:10 PM
Why is Turbine taking the *little* resources it has for DDO, and spending them re-visiting stuff like Trap DCs?

This is a waste of time... move on to new content please.

Turial
02-14-2008, 01:25 PM
This is where the multiclass splash rogues are starting to have some difficulty, and while I agree that maybe right now they are too high for everyone, if they come down it should not be to their previous levels.
There is a reaosn why full rogues get improved evasion, and improved uncanny dodge and extra trap sense bonuses. An elite trap should challenge a full rogue but should be regularly beatable if well specced, it should hurt a splash rogue who has the skills to disable the trap but simply does not have enough saves to beat the damage.

So bring on higher dc's if full rogues now have an advantage The simple fact is given equal race and levl and dex, a full rogue can hit a 9 better reflex save than any trapsmith multiclass, add in the enhancement bonuses and you are looking at 12

+5 trap sense at 15
+4 improved uncanny dodge(lvl 8) and uncanny dodge(lvl 4)
+3 trap sense ehancement(max is +4 but anyone who takes 1 lvl of rogue gets accessto the first lvl enhancement)

This is on top of items buffs etc, only a rogue can get these bonuses

The question really is are the multi-trap smiths having more issues with these new DC's then pure rogues?

My thoughts are a multi-trap smith should have to have everything trap related to be able to do something that a normally speced full class rogue can do. With the game the way it is, it wont happen because the only way to cut off the multi-trapsmiths is to make things so hard that full rogues have to specialize almost fully in traps, which in some cases removes the rogue from most of the game content because people say "oh you can only do traps.....yeah you see there arent any traps in this quest and classes X, Y, and Z want to join."

Honestly if they wanted to make it so people cant multi-class a few levels of rogue to get the same trap skills as a full rogue they should tie the rogue items to rogue level i.e. Open lock 10 gloves would require you to have 13 rogue levels to equip rather then just being level 13.

ArkoHighStar
02-14-2008, 01:35 PM
The question really is are the multi-trap smiths having more issues with these new DC's then pure rogues?

My thoughts are a multi-trap smith should have to have everything trap related to be able to do something that a normally speced full class rogue can do. With the game the way it is, it wont happen because the only way to cut off the multi-trapsmiths is to make things so hard that full rogues have to specialize almost fully in traps, which in some cases removes the rogue from most of the game content because people say "oh you can only do traps.....yeah you see there arent any traps in this quest and classes X, Y, and Z want to join."

Honestly if they wanted to make it so people cant multi-class a few levels of rogue to get the same trap skills as a full rogue they should tie the rogue items to rogue level i.e. Open lock 10 gloves would require you to have 13 rogue levels to equip rather then just being level 13.

You are mistaking disabling a trap with surviving it. Sure a trapsmith can keep his disable device as high as a pure rogue, but as I said previously given equal dex and race, and feat selection they will always be trailing behind a full lvl 15 rogue by 9-12 points, and that should matter, because on normal, both should be doing fine, but as you climb into elite those 9 points should make the difference. On elite a rogue should not have to sacrifice everything to make it though, a M/C splash rogue should, they should have to spend feats to get reflex save bonuses high enough to even come close to a full rogue who has equal dex.

ViVid7th
02-14-2008, 01:41 PM
Wait a minute, you are comparing a level 13 trapsmith MC to a level 11 pure rogue? You are lowballing your number here, for starters. Arko's right, you are forgetting UC and you are forgetting Improved Evasion. And 30 dex is a bit low for a dex based TWF build (I had over 20 at level 3 without gimping any of my stats. Add in enhancements and 3 stat boosts, and you are looking at a 26 before Stat item and tomes.).

Once you add in those 2 missing levels in your comparison and add UC, the pure rogue comes far out on top. And it is common for Non UMD builds to spend a feat on Lightning Reflexes if they are going trap based. It is much more likely for a Pure Rogue at level 11-13 to fail only on a 3 or less, and considering it is a "Hard" trap and that 'rogue skills' like tumble and jump reduce the number of likely trap tags, so less saves.

Edit: Not saying that there isn't a problem with the DCs, but unlike Arko, I don't think the DCs on hard are that bad. Rather it is the elite ones that are insane. What irks me most about this is you are skewing your numbers to get the results you want, which is to show that a pure rogue doesn't have much over a MC trap build, which isn't true.

unionyes
02-14-2008, 01:43 PM
I have a rogue 10 with way of the mechanic enhancement and handled those traps quite nicely. Died twice the first time but thats because I (not my character) didn't know where the boxes are. Have all the standard level 10 rogue feats, improved evasion, etc. In most cases you can throw on a resist, hit your ac/save boost, and stand there until you roll a 1, actually would have to roll two 1's because I have enough hp to survive the first save fail, even without a resist. More of a hassle if I am interrupted in the middle of disabling a box than a fear of dying the first time.

IMO, it is nice to see the traps do some serious damage, rather than being a mere inconvenience. Of course I do agree with all those who say that traps that cannot be disabled shouldn't be death traps but more inconvenience traps, designed to drain party resources more than to cause a party wipe.

BTW, my rogue is also a huge asset to the party in combat, dual wielding stat damaging weapons and doing massive damage with sneak attack, so it isn't like I can't pull my weight in quests without traps. Also have pretty decent umd, have been known to rez the cleric and fire off the odd wand heal from time to time. Of course, I do need an actual tank to draw aggro. Toe to toe and I quickly end up watching my stone spin lazily in a circle like a top.

llevenbaxx
02-14-2008, 02:13 PM
What do you all feel that the elite trap save DCs should be figuring in. Is it assumed that every rogue out there is going to be UMD specced and be carrying around every buff scroll in the game? Or should they be based around what the rogue class feats, enhancements and equipment add up to?

My very first character at launch was(eventually) an Elf wiz9/rog1, I used my spells to get me past most traps and up my saves and checks. These days it seems the traps are figuring everything a pure rogue character has to offer plus every buff in the game ta boot. Is this what elite should be? Or do you all think it should be based off only the things the rogue class has to offer. Would really like to know what you all think on this. I know a rogue with UMD has access to most of the buffs but UMD is a choice not a necessity, keep in mind.

ArkoHighStar
02-14-2008, 02:21 PM
Wait a minute, you are comparing a level 13 trapsmith MC to a level 11 pure rogue? You are lowballing your number here, for starters. Arko's right, you are forgetting UC and you are forgetting Improved Evasion. And 30 dex is a bit low for a dex based TWF build (I had over 20 at level 3 without gimping any of my stats. Add in enhancements and 3 stat boosts, and you are looking at a 26 before Stat item and tomes.).

Once you add in those 2 missing levels in your comparison and add UC, the pure rogue comes far out on top. And it is common for Non UMD builds to spend a feat on Lightning Reflexes if they are going trap based. It is much more likely for a Pure Rogue at level 11-13 to fail only on a 3 or less, and considering it is a "Hard" trap and that 'rogue skills' like tumble and jump reduce the number of likely trap tags, so less saves.

Edit: Not saying that there isn't a problem with the DCs, but unlike Arko, I don't think the DCs on hard are that bad. Rather it is the elite ones that are insane. What irks me most about this is you are skewing your numbers to get the results you want, which is to show that a pure rogue doesn't have much over a MC trap build, which isn't true.

To be honest I haven't played around with hard so they may be ok, but yes elite is too much for everyone right now. Lets

look at that lvl 11 rogue again properly
+7 from 11 rogue lvls
+10 from 30 dex
+4 from trap blast goggles
+3 from trap sense feats
+1 rabbit gloves (from threnal and level appropriate)
+1 haste
+1 parrying weapon
+3 trap sense enhancements
+4 improved uncanny dodge
+4 GH

so 38 is the number that a lvl 11 rogue will be hitting, he would fail on a 3 or less

Now lets compare 2 same lvl chars

+9 from 15 rogue lvls
+10 from 30 dex
+4 from trap blast goggles
+3 from trap sense feats
+2 head of good fortune
+1 haste
+1 parrying weapon
+4 trap sense enhancements
+4 improved uncanny dodge
+4 GH

42 almost a 10 point difference and in von 5 on hard you will never fail a save

So your trap disabler can no longer survive the trap on hard, even if they drop elite and hard you will still be failing way more than a lower level rogue, who even when they do fail takes half the damage you do, so he is taking 40-50 damage sounds reasonable to me

ArkoHighStar
02-14-2008, 02:27 PM
What do you all feel that the elite trap save DCs should be figuring in. Is it assumed that every rogue out there is going to be UMD specced and be carrying around every buff scroll in the game? Or should they be based around what the rogue class feats, enhancements and equipment add up to?

My very first character at launch was(eventually) an Elf wiz9/rog1, I used my spells to get me past most traps and up my saves and checks. These days it seems the traps are figuring everything a pure rogue character has to offer plus every buff in the game ta boot. Is this what elite should be? Or do you all think it should be based off only the things the rogue class has to offer. Would really like to know what you all think on this. I know a rogue with UMD has access to most of the buffs but UMD is a choice not a necessity, keep in mind.

The 9 points from trap sense and improved uncanny dodge are free to every rogue at lvl 15, everything else is build choice, so should elite force you to build a max dex halfing rogue with the lightning reflex feat, no it shouldn't. That 9 points should be the factor that makes elite easier for pure rogues, how much easier after the 9 points is dependant on the build.

As far as damage goes, some build like wizzy/rogues can mitigate damage with spells, while rogues have improved evasion, those builds that can't mitigate damage must rely on others to buff them up. But a fully buffed rogue will always take less damage

Inkblack
02-14-2008, 02:46 PM
It's been a long time since I did this without running through the traps, but I'm pretty sure you can disable the boxes in a way that you don't have to run through but 1 or 2 of the blade traps, and never have to disable while standing in one. That's without using the "edge out until you're just barely around the corner but not making saves" trick if you want to do them one side at a time.

Start on the right side, find and disable one box, then switch to the left. Alternate sides while proceeding a bit further each time. If you can't see the box when you search it, it is on the back side of the pillar (like the first one on the right side).

If you do the back and forth method, you can use electricity protection pots to keep the electricity damage to a minimum if you mistime your run through the trap and then fail the save.

Ink

Turial
02-14-2008, 02:53 PM
+9 from 15 rogue lvls
+12 from 34 dex
+4 from trap blast goggles
+3 from trap sense feats
+2 head of good fortune
+1 haste
+1 parrying weapon
+4 trap sense enhancements
+4 improved uncanny dodge
+4 GH
+2 Lightning reflexes feat

46 (high point in rogue trap saves I think)

Whats the high point for a multi rogue (depends on classes in the end but generally)?

samagee
02-14-2008, 03:19 PM
Kay... so I go into VON 5 on hard (not elite)... just to test out these traps...

My trapsmith is a drow bard/rogue... 12/3... but pretty dedicated to the roguely arts... I started with an 18 Int and I have Disable, Spot, and Search all maxed out (Open Lock nearly maxed), along with Rogue I Spot and Search enhancements, and Drow II Spot and Search enhancements...

So I'm fairly serious about my role as the trapsmith....

My Dex is 24 (+7)
My Reflex saves are +8 from bard, +3 from Rogue = +11
I get +1 Trap Sense from 3rd level of Rogue
I have +3 Resistance Item
I have +4 Greater Heroism
I have +2 Head of Good Fortune
I have +1 from parrying weapon
I have +1 from Haste

Total Reflex save: 30

After several deaths running through the hallway with the lightning traps and the spinning blades, I have narrowed down the DCs... I failed on a 9 and saved on a 12... so figure around a 40 DC for a level 10 quest on hard....

Now, I plan on re-arranging my enhancements after I make 16th level... I'll probably be able to gain two points of Dex... I'll spend an Action Point for Trap Sense I.... I'll scour the Auction House for a +5 resistance item.... and maybe I'll get to the point where I only need a 6 or higher to save... which in that room... probably means death... Failing 1 out of 3 rolls for 80-100 points of damage a shot means I'm worthless as a rogue in that quest... even at 16th level with the best gear possible.

Now for those of you who say, "Well hey!, you're not a pure rogue!"... Let's take a hypothetical 11th level rogue into this room... (Pretty reasonable for a 11th level pure rogue to try VON 5 on hard don't you think?)

30 Dex (28 more likely, but let's be generous) +10
7 Reflex saves from 11 levels of Rogue
+3 Trap Sense from 11 levels of Rogue
+4 Trap Blast Goggles
+4 GH
+1 parrying weapon
+1 Haste
+3 Trap Sense enhancements

Total Reflex save: 33

Again, failing on a 6, maybe a 7 or lower... 80-100 points of damage per missed save.... Yeah, that rogue (who is FOCUSED on being on a trapsmith) won't be of much use in there.... You have to make a dozen saves while disarming those traps... Maybe with a dedicated healer... Maybe using up all of your Improved Uncanny Dodges (11th level rogue gets 3 or 4 of those for 20 seconds each?)

And that 30 Dex is almost required... Forget ever making a strength based rogue who can do traps... Cookie-cutter class suddenly...

I'm usually a big cheerleader for the devs... I believe the traps that you have to run through (or stand in!!) are too hard... please review your DCs...

Roll up a test 11th level Rogue, take him into VON5, and see if you feel like a master of traps... The one time you get to shine in full public view... and you die 2-3 times.... yeah that gives you a good reputation, and makes you feel proud of your character.

You forgetting improv uncanny dodge as well.

Emili
02-14-2008, 03:22 PM
You are mistaking disabling a trap with surviving it. Sure a trapsmith can keep his disable device as high as a pure rogue, but as I said previously given equal dex and race, and feat selection they will always be trailing behind a full lvl 15 rogue by 9-12 points, and that should matter, because on normal, both should be doing fine, but as you climb into elite those 9 points should make the difference. On elite a rogue should not have to sacrifice everything to make it though, a M/C splash rogue should, they should have to spend feats to get reflex save bonuses high enough to even come close to a full rogue who has equal dex.

With the exception of what you splash with... obviously a 3 pally rogue in the splash is going to push reflex saves higher yet beyond a pure rogue moving the + to reflex from uncanny to it's standing reflex save.

There are a three things which bother me about this whole ordeal.


Forces me to scrutinize who I invite to my elite runs, forcing me to play with less people or to lower the challenge to myself, I in particular always go for an elite run on everything unless it cannot be opened among the group. I like to be able to take anyone wishing to come and not be discriminating.
Some quests leave no alternatives to the case... I mean making any particular class an absolute must is a bloody against the spirit of DnD. Again this shares a lot in common with point one.
Some people who built splash rogues must reroll - this only frustrates people and some may leave due to the level and loot grinding required to attain current levels.


Now... lastly this is inconsistant. Maybe the dev's should have put in max stat runes too on elite (34 STR, 34 WIS, 36 DEX.... )? I mean maybe on elite the should have made it so melee cannot hit any mob unless they sport +49 to-hit or maybe casters should not land thier spells unless they have the Max DC possible? How many people would complain then? This is totally inconsistant with how the game should be. We should not be required to build beyond a little more over the average in base build on any toon and still have some cabability of getting a successful run - even on elite.

I say this as the other day in dragon ... the pure rogue could not pull down the trap in the north hall - he kept failing. Now really this was only one box he was to get because when you get one then the reast come down easily. People were telling me he sux and to boot him... they were getting frustrated waiting. I ended up using my fighter and my mario skills and resing some people on the right then coming back and shrining to recharge my ring of ancestors and doing the same for the left section. So there you have it trap solved without use of a rogue to do it.... pain in the bum and highly doubt the dev's had this in mind for von 5.

So comming back to this... of the 12 people in the party, how many people do you think will remember that particular rogue and do you think they'll ask him to group again?

samagee
02-14-2008, 03:24 PM
Why is Turbine taking the *little* resources it has for DDO, and spending them re-visiting stuff like Trap DCs?

This is a waste of time... move on to new content please.

Because the gimps in the game were multiclassing and not adding real rogues to the party list.

ArkoHighStar
02-14-2008, 03:30 PM
With the exception of what you splash with... obviously a 3 pally rogue in the splash is going to push reflex saves higher yet beyond a pure rogue moving the + to reflex from uncanny to it's standing reflex save.

There are a three things which bother me about this whole ordeal.


Forces me to scrutinize who I invite to my elite runs, forcing me to play with less people or to lower the challenge to myself, I in particular always go for an elite run on everything unless it cannot be opened among the group. I like to be able to take anyone wishing to come and not be discriminating.
Some quests leave no alternatives to the case... I mean making any particular class an absolute must is a bloody against the spirit of DnD. Again this shares a lot in common with point one.
Some people who built splash rogues must reroll - this only frustrates people and some may leave due to the level and loot grinding required to attain current levels.


Now... lastly this is inconsistant. Maybe the dev's should have put in ma stat runes too? I mean maybe on elite the should have made it so melee cannot hit any mob unless they sport +49 to-hit or maybe casters should not land thier spells unless they have the Max DC possible? How many people would complain then? This is totally inconsistant with how the game should be. We should not be required to build beyond a little over average in base build on any toon and still have some cabability of getting a successful run.

I say this as the other day in dragon ... the pure rogue could not pull down the trap in the north hall - he kept failing. Now really this was only one box he was to get because when you get one then the reast come down easily. People were telling me to boot him... they were getting frustrated waiting. I ended up raging and buffing, hasting and carrying stones of just enough people to handle the north section down the right section hall using my mario skills and resing them there then coming back and shrining to recharge my ring of ancestors and doing the same for the left section. I do not believe this was some strategy the dev's had in mind for von 5.

but a 3 pally/12 rogue is not a splash rogue it is a rogue with a splash of pally for extra saves.
there is a big difference in a 12bard/3 rogue to a 12 rogue/3 pally and that difference is 9 levels of rogue, and splashing pally does not automatically mean you are going to get huge extra numbers, that build has to include a decent charisma for the charisma bonus to mean something.
I think everyone agrees right now on elite the dc is just too high for anyone and needs to be adjusted

Emili
02-14-2008, 03:42 PM
but a 3 pally/12 rogue is not a splash rogue it is a rogue with a splash of pally for extra saves.
there is a big difference in a 12bard/3 rogue to a 12 rogue/3 pally and that difference is 9 levels of rogue, and splashing pally does not automatically mean you are going to get huge extra numbers, that build has to include a decent charisma for the charisma bonus to mean something.
I think everyone agrees right now on elite the dc is just too high for anyone and needs to be adjusted

And... a 11 pally/4 Rogue can reach near same reflex too... I'm pretty sure as my pure pally is a 31.

ArkoHighStar
02-14-2008, 04:07 PM
And... a 11 pally/4 Rogue can reach near same reflex too... I'm pretty sure as my pure pally is a 31.

Your pure pally can't disable the trap so it doesn't really matter, and a 11 pally /4 rogue will still fall behind by at least 3 without enhancements and 6 with. Nobody would argue that a non rogue can get very high saves, but the price is much higher for the those precious save points, a mostly pure class rogue will given equal stats and race, beat out a splash rogue by a variable amount(depending on what you are splashing with), the more rogue you add the closer they are, then again the more rogue you add the bigger the splash. The thing is with the exception of the Pally charaisma bonuses and barbarian trap bonuses every other class that you spalsh with rogue has to invest in something to bridge the gao that a rogue gets for free

The simple fact is splashing pally on a rogue is much more effective than splashing rogue on a pally, as the first 3 levels of pally give the best bonuses, whereas the bonuses for rogues increase as you invest in more rogue lvls, culminating in improved evasion being available at lvl 10. People used to say improved evasion was overkill, now it is not. Improved uncanny dodge may be a timed boost but it is a very powerful boost and lasts just long enough for it to matter

Tallyn
02-14-2008, 04:42 PM
And... a 11 pally/4 Rogue can reach near same reflex too... I'm pretty sure as my pure pally is a 31.

My 14 Rogue/2 Paladin hits +40 Reflex and I usually dont wear a resistance item. If I am really worried I use a +4 resist ring and pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for a +48 Reflex. Could get it higher, but I dont usually fail them at that point.

honkuimushi
02-15-2008, 06:26 AM
I'm going to take an issue with a few of the bonuses being tossed around here. A 30 dex was considered low. For VON, how high a level are we talking about? Yes, a twinked drow or a 32pt halfling or elf can do it fairly easily, but it's not so easy for other races and 28 pt. buillds. Do we really want to limit the races that can be rogues in elite so narrowly(except for Paladin splashes)? Let's look at what a 28 pt human can achieve for Dex at 12th level:
18 start
3 levels
3 rogue enhancements
1 human enhancement
5 Dex item

Total: 30
That is the max value excluding tomes. WF, dwarves, or half-orcs(when we get them) would max out at 29. A twelth level could have reached 1750 but it would be a pretty good feat, not to mention the fact that he would have had to face everything on elite to get there in the first place. You could use a +1 tome, but most people I know do not have a ready supply of tomes and are reluctant to use a tome if they plan on taking their favor tome in their prime stat.

Also, consider the cost for the above build. That 28 pt. human now has 12 points left to distribute. If you want Intelligence for traps and skills and Con for hit points you might end up with a build like this:
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 8

I would never want to play a character with so many dumped stats, especially a Rogue. Then consider the enhancement costs. That +4 to dex requires 14 APs, 3.5 levels worth. If you want to include the Trap Sense enhancements, add another 10 APs for a total of 24, 6 levels worth of APs. Half of your APs. If you want focus on traps, you'll need some of the disabling enhancements, Way of the Mechanic(and it's prereqs.) There aren't many APs left for anything else after that.

I'd also like to add that while it's perfectly fine to include Uncanny Dodge in the calculations, it is a relatively short term boost and it is limited to a few times a day.

This is beginning to remind me of the time when they jacked up the requirements for Search and Spot. At that time, races that had a racial bonus and enhancements for those skills gained a huge advantage compared to other races. In this case it's Pally splashed and races with Dex bonuses and enhancements. At that time you had some people saying that this was great for rogues and some people saying it was terrible. In my experience it tended to eliminate all but drow and elven rogues, caused a lot of re-rolls of existing rogues, and made people less likely to recruit rogues because it was harder to find a reliable rogue. Rogues can do a lot more than traps, but failing to find a box was a good way to destroy a reputation. And, after seeing a few rogues fail to find boxes in certain quests, the rogues were competing with the benefits of adding another melee class, caster, bard or cleric solely on their combat ability. With this change, I'm beginning to see similar problems. Even the rogue can't be relied on to get to a trap box, so the strategy I'm seeing on elite is to just buff, haste, and run through any trap that requires the rogue to risk getting caught in the trap. With rezzes as necessarry. Also similar is the long wait in the face of several inquiries on the forums(including from some very respected posters) for the devs to make any sort of statement on their intent and where things are going.

Just a final note. I was running some of the House J undead quests for favor last night. The levels on Normal were from 9 to 11. The monsters were not that much of a problem, the traps were. Most of the traps in these quests required you to go through the trap to get to the box. The vast majority are mechanical traps, so energy buffs don't work. I was failing on a 41 and taking 150 to 200 damage per hit. Several of these traps hit you twice in less than a second. That wasn't fun, it's just frustrating.

Emili
02-15-2008, 09:03 AM
This is beginning to remind me of the time when they jacked up the requirements for Search and Spot. At that time, races that had a racial bonus and enhancements for those skills gained a huge advantage compared to other races. In this case it's Pally splashed and races with Dex bonuses and enhancements. At that time you had some people saying that this was great for rogues and some people saying it was terrible. In my experience it tended to eliminate all but drow and elven rogues, caused a lot of re-rolls of existing rogues, and made people less likely to recruit rogues because it was harder to find a reliable rogue. Rogues can do a lot more than traps, but failing to find a box was a good way to destroy a reputation. And, after seeing a few rogues fail to find boxes in certain quests, the rogues were competing with the benefits of adding another melee class, caster, bard or cleric solely on their combat ability. With this change, I'm beginning to see similar problems. Even the rogue can't be relied on to get to a trap box, so the strategy I'm seeing on elite is to just buff, haste, and run through any trap that requires the rogue to risk getting caught in the trap. With rezzes as necessarry. Also similar is the long wait in the face of several inquiries on the forums(including from some very respected posters) for the devs to make any sort of statement on their intent and where things are going.


I was going to mention this as it remindes me of those times also ... I had seen so many people rerolling rogues or completely abandon the class in lue of the headache and grind and roll something different up.

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 10:29 AM
I'm going to take an issue with a few of the bonuses being tossed around here. A 30 dex was considered low. For VON, how high a level are we talking about? Yes, a twinked drow or a 32pt halfling or elf can do it fairly easily, but it's not so easy for other races and 28 pt. buillds. Do we really want to limit the races that can be rogues in elite so narrowly(except for Paladin splashes)? Let's look at what a 28 pt human can achieve for Dex at 12th level:
18 start
3 levels
3 rogue enhancements
1 human enhancement
5 Dex item

Total: 30
That is the max value excluding tomes. WF, dwarves, or half-orcs(when we get them) would max out at 29. A twelth level could have reached 1750 but it would be a pretty good feat, not to mention the fact that he would have had to face everything on elite to get there in the first place. You could use a +1 tome, but most people I know do not have a ready supply of tomes and are reluctant to use a tome if they plan on taking their favor tome in their prime stat.

Also, consider the cost for the above build. That 28 pt. human now has 12 points left to distribute. If you want Intelligence for traps and skills and Con for hit points you might end up with a build like this:
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 8

I would never want to play a character with so many dumped stats, especially a Rogue. Then consider the enhancement costs. That +4 to dex requires 14 APs, 3.5 levels worth. If you want to include the Trap Sense enhancements, add another 10 APs for a total of 24, 6 levels worth of APs. Half of your APs. If you want focus on traps, you'll need some of the disabling enhancements, Way of the Mechanic(and it's prereqs.) There aren't many APs left for anything else after that.

I'd also like to add that while it's perfectly fine to include Uncanny Dodge in the calculations, it is a relatively short term boost and it is limited to a few times a day.

This is beginning to remind me of the time when they jacked up the requirements for Search and Spot. At that time, races that had a racial bonus and enhancements for those skills gained a huge advantage compared to other races. In this case it's Pally splashed and races with Dex bonuses and enhancements. At that time you had some people saying that this was great for rogues and some people saying it was terrible. In my experience it tended to eliminate all but drow and elven rogues, caused a lot of re-rolls of existing rogues, and made people less likely to recruit rogues because it was harder to find a reliable rogue. Rogues can do a lot more than traps, but failing to find a box was a good way to destroy a reputation. And, after seeing a few rogues fail to find boxes in certain quests, the rogues were competing with the benefits of adding another melee class, caster, bard or cleric solely on their combat ability. With this change, I'm beginning to see similar problems. Even the rogue can't be relied on to get to a trap box, so the strategy I'm seeing on elite is to just buff, haste, and run through any trap that requires the rogue to risk getting caught in the trap. With rezzes as necessarry. Also similar is the long wait in the face of several inquiries on the forums(including from some very respected posters) for the devs to make any sort of statement on their intent and where things are going.

Just a final note. I was running some of the House J undead quests for favor last night. The levels on Normal were from 9 to 11. The monsters were not that much of a problem, the traps were. Most of the traps in these quests required you to go through the trap to get to the box. The vast majority are mechanical traps, so energy buffs don't work. I was failing on a 41 and taking 150 to 200 damage per hit. Several of these traps hit you twice in less than a second. That wasn't fun, it's just frustrating.


remember we are not talking about normal, we are talking about elite. It should challenge a well specced rogue, at even 28 the rogue still comes out ahead. I think most agree right now elite is out whack for everyone, the question is if Turbine rolls it back, how much should they roll it back. In my opinion it should be a point at which the well specced rogue properly buffed can get through rolling a 6 or better, then again a full high level rogue will also have improved evasion which would make the failures hurt less.

Multiclass splash rogues should be at a disadvantage on elite and the reason is simple 2 levels of rogue does not buy you any of the bonuses to reflex saves that investing in more rogues levels gives you, when designing the levels of dc's for traps, designers should, and are taking into consideration the bonuses that rogues enjoy, as they are the only class that can disable traps.

On normal a full rogue should be saving almost all the time. On elite we should be considering things like improved uncanny dodge, as it should force a player to bring out his entire arsenal of tricks, including buffs, items etc.

honkuimushi
02-15-2008, 11:34 AM
remember we are not talking about normal, we are talking about elite. It should challenge a well specced rogue, at even 28 the rogue still comes out ahead. I think most agree right now elite is out whack for everyone, the question is if Turbine rolls it back, how much should they roll it back. In my opinion it should be a point at which the well specced rogue properly buffed can get through rolling a 6 or better, then again a full high level rogue will also have improved evasion which would make the failures hurt less.

Multiclass splash rogues should be at a disadvantage on elite and the reason is simple 2 levels of rogue does not buy you any of the bonuses to reflex saves that investing in more rogues levels gives you, when designing the levels of dc's for traps, designers should, and are taking into consideration the bonuses that rogues enjoy, as they are the only class that can disable traps.

On normal a full rogue should be saving almost all the time. On elite we should be considering things like improved uncanny dodge, as it should force a player to bring out his entire arsenal of tricks, including buffs, items etc.

I don't have any major issues with this, but I think that we should be including other high reflex characters in this discussion as well. If Bards, Rangers, and eventually Monks, are failing a majority if their trap saves, even on elite, I think we have gone too far. It devalues high reflex saves for a class. And if they're failing, what about all the low reflex save classes. I don't think not having a rogue should guarantee a party wipe, even on Elite. I think that on Normal, even with little or no gear or enhancements, a level appropriate rogue with decent Dex, should fail on a 1. Other high reflex save classes should fail a little more often. On elite, I think it's fair to assume a higher dex, a few enhancements and some moderate gear should be assumed in determining the difficulty and that rogue should save of a 4 or so. Someone who really maxes out reflex saves should pretty much fail on a 1. But I don't think trap difficulties should be an automatic fail for everyone but a rogue though.

One of the problems when trying to fine tune the game based on DCs, is that they are a lot of ways to meet a challenge. It's really a very imprecise tool. A lot of the classes favored for splash rogue bulids also get high reflex saves, namely Rangers and Bards. If you try to make life hard for them, you really make life hard for everyone because there really isn't that much difference in their capabilities. Paladins with rogue splashes chan also hit the needed saves, but they have other problems concerning MAD and skill points. The Splash that would be impacted the most by increased trap DCs is the Wizard/ Rogue. A lot of these characters stick with 1 level of rogue to avoid losing caster levels. The low reflex save progression of the Wizard, along with a tendency to dump dex on some characters and the lack of evasion on the rogue 1 builds, would make even a slight increase in DC's an issue. Yes, they do get some buffs like resists, False Life and Nightshield, but it could be difficult to adjust and they are less effective against mechanical traps. But I don't really want to see them have to re-roll. If they decide to keep boosted DCs, we may have to find a way to include Arcane Trickster. The actual PrC requires 3 levels of rogue(without other PrCs being available) and the addition of a high Reflex save progression could keep these characters viable as a trapsmith in elite, at the cost of caster levels.

I'm not opposed to a modest increase, but I think the likely results of this change need to be thought out a little more fully and balanced a little better. But most of all, I wish the devs were talking to us about this a little more. As people mentioned in the old threads on AC an attack bonuses, you only have a spread of 20 before it becomes nearly automatic failure vs. nearly automatic success. At level 20, the difference between good saves and poor saves is 6, a 12 vs. a 6. We need to be careful how wide we make the gap when equipment and abilities are added.

Issip
02-15-2008, 12:26 PM
I have 2 rogues, both multiclass mutts. The highest level of rogue I have for either of them is 5. Neither have any issues disabling any trap in the game with the exception of the third trap for the bonus chest in Raibow in the Dark on Elite. I may take more damage from traps, I may fail saves and die, but I figure if I'm disabling traps with my rogue there is usually a cleric around who can res me, but this has not been a problem for me. Sounds like Von5 Elite might kill my rogue as I clear the North hall if I don't pay attention to where I'm going and just expect to make all my saves. I'm playing the worlds smallest violin for myself as I type this - who cares? I intended my rogues to be capable of opening any lock or disarming any trap and they are, and with a woppin 3-5 levels of rogue mixed into their fighter/ranger levels.

I am glad they made the traps more painful and see no legitimate issue with the changes.

kruggar
02-15-2008, 12:43 PM
was so sad other day i entered von on elite with my wizard 14/rogue 2..

was blasted by the traps in a second.

i have +31 reflex save wich i thinked was enought for those elite traps (BIG mistake)

now im back to same point i was before the update, why give the int to reflex feat if u cant use it on a multiclass wizard/rogue.

ok a rogue with huge int can use it, but i think its kinda useless for me for now..

Pellegro
02-15-2008, 01:05 PM
Can someone please post teh DC to save on the trap on elite?

And then the expected save of a level appropriate rogue (which I would suggest would be 3-4 levels over the normal level of quest given that elite is now ramped up)?

Then we can finally have an intelligent discussion.

If a completely maxxed out trapsmith only fails on a level appropriate elite trap on a 1-4 or so, then I think its fine, as a more typical build would fail on a 1-10 or so.

Basically, by being a rogue, taht would mean a 50/50 shot, on elite, of being able to ignore the trap and not find ways around it. And it means a greater than 50% chance of failure for a non-rogue. That doesn't bother me a bit.

If you fail, you just take your rez and run through. Next time, hopefully you'll figure out a more intelligent way to get past the trap rather than just running through it.

Thats just my opinion. I'd also be fine if a "typical" rogue, on elite, at level appropriate, only failed on like a 1-5 or so. What I think would be poor design is for traps to be ignorable by rogues, de facto, which would mean that non-rogues would be looking at better than 50/50 survival rates or so on elite. That to me is why traps are generally ignored now.

On elite, traps have to be dealt with, and that means figuring out how to dismantle them without triggering them. That's part of their challenge. ....

Angelus_dead
02-15-2008, 01:09 PM
Basically, by being a rogue, taht would mean a 50/50 shot, on elite, of being able to ignore the trap and not find ways around it. And it means a greater than 50% chance of failure for a non-rogue. That doesn't bother me a bit.
It surely would NOT mean that.

Normally traps will force you to roll saving throws 2-3 times to make it past one trap. The rogue doesn't have a 50% chance... he's got a 12.5%

llevenbaxx
02-15-2008, 01:23 PM
now im back to same point i was before the update, why give the int to reflex feat if u cant use it on a multiclass wizard/rogue.

..

Lol yeah that was a kind of a shot for me too. Why the hell bother putting the feat in if you are going to make it nearly useless in the very same update?:( While I notice I save alot more from spells from enemy casters, thats not a good enough reason for me to bother using a valuable feat slot, I dont get caught in many AOE spells.

I do wish the Devs would pipe up about this also, at least that way I could delete my wiz/rog and start another character. Give us more slots too.:)

Aladon
02-15-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm not opposed to a modest increase, but I think the likely results of this change need to be thought out a little more fully and balanced a little better.

The reality that plagues Turbine's repeated attempts to guide play in certain directions is that players have freedom in the game. If Turbine makes something too hard, the players will find a different, aberrant, but easier path. Stealthy Repo is a pain in the butt so lots of us just run it on elite for favor at high levels. The difficulty of The Dragon raid led to the pull and /death strategy. The lack of damage from traps as compared to the time delay of finding and disabling them led to widespread zerging.

I would submit that the 'correct' level of DC's/damage from traps is not some theoretical 'right' level of challenge. It's the level at which the ease of solving the problem in a non-aberrant way exceeds the ease of aberrating by enough margin to make it the preferred solution for most parties. If it is faster and cheaper to recruit a reasonably competent, level appropriate, trap-capable toon and give him or her the time to get the trap down, that is the right difficulty. Clearly that is not the case now.

Damage on disableable traps is more or less ok now.

Damage on non-disableable traps is much too high now.

DC's on traps are much too high.

I submit to you, Turbine, that anytime players are resorting to aberrant, perverse methodologies, there is something wrong with the balance of the game (not the players, as it sometimes seems you believe). Likewise, it seems to me that the various threads on this subject have been extraordinarily thoughtful and polite. It would be a positive sign of respect from you to respond in some fashion to the thoughts, comments and concerns expressed by your community.

Best,

Aladon

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 01:51 PM
The reality that plagues Turbine's repeated attempts to guide play in certain directions is that players have freedom in the game. If Turbine makes something too hard, the players will find a different, aberrant, but easier path. Stealthy Repo is a pain in the butt so lots of us just run it on elite for favor at high levels. The difficulty of The Dragon raid led to the pull and /death strategy. The lack of damage from traps as compared to the time delay of finding and disabling them led to widespread zerging.

I would submit that the 'correct' level of DC's/damage from traps is not some theoretical 'right' level of challenge. It's the level at which the ease of solving the problem in a non-aberrant way exceeds the ease of aberrating by enough margin to make it the preferred solution for most parties. If it is faster and cheaper to recruit a reasonably competent, level appropriate, trap-capable toon and give him or her the time to get the trap down, that is the right difficulty. Clearly that is not the case now.

Damage on disableable traps is more or less ok now.
agreed, traps should hurt enough that you have to think about wanting a rogue or not, and whether you would rather expend resources(buffing, healin) or give a spot to someone who can make the problem go away
Damage on non-disableable traps is much too high now.
agreed, this is the one case where having a rogue can't help you so having a trap that simply kills everyone makes no sense
DC's on traps are much too high.
on normal it is fine, hard is debateable, elite is just way too high for anyone without dumping everything into reflex save


I submit to you, Turbine, that anytime players are resorting to aberrant, perverse methodologies, there is something wrong with the balance of the game (not the players, as it sometimes seems you believe). Likewise, it seems to me that the various threads on this subject have been extraordinarily thoughtful and polite. It would be a positive sign of respect from you to respond in some fashion to the thoughts, comments and concerns expressed by your community.

To a certain extent I agree, but Turbine will never be able to keep up as we outnumber them, so all they can do is react based on our actions

Best,

Aladon

see comments above

Aladon
02-15-2008, 02:00 PM
Can someone please post teh DC to save on the trap on elite?

And then the expected save of a level appropriate rogue (which I would suggest would be 3-4 levels over the normal level of quest given that elite is now ramped up)?

Then we can finally have an intelligent discussion.

If a completely maxxed out trapsmith only fails on a level appropriate elite trap on a 1-4 or so, then I think its fine, as a more typical build would fail on a 1-10 or so.

Basically, by being a rogue, taht would mean a 50/50 shot, on elite, of being able to ignore the trap and not find ways around it. And it means a greater than 50% chance of failure for a non-rogue. That doesn't bother me a bit.

If you fail, you just take your rez and run through. Next time, hopefully you'll figure out a more intelligent way to get past the trap rather than just running through it.

Thats just my opinion. I'd also be fine if a "typical" rogue, on elite, at level appropriate, only failed on like a 1-5 or so. What I think would be poor design is for traps to be ignorable by rogues, de facto, which would mean that non-rogues would be looking at better than 50/50 survival rates or so on elite. That to me is why traps are generally ignored now.

On elite, traps have to be dealt with, and that means figuring out how to dismantle them without triggering them. That's part of their challenge. ....

This is a great example of my post just above. That -might- be a reasonable criterion. The test is if, in reality, parties were following this 'recruit a good trapsmith and wait while he or she does the traps' strategy. If, as I suspect is the case, parties are not following this path but rather finding other ways around the new rules, then it is not a reasonable criterion.

Likewise, it's not even clear if that strategy works. It seems level appropriate, good trapsmiths will probably stuggle to cope with certain trap designs. Watching competent rogues die in traps regularly is bad for the game at so many levels.

Also, personally I do not accept the "which I would suggest would be 3-4 levels over the normal level of quest given that elite is now ramped up" argument. The stated difficulty level of Hard and Elite are one level higher per difficulty. This governs the XP and loot. If a 7th level quest on elite now requires an 11th level party, the entire structure of the game should be adjusted accordingly. If not, making this de facto true is just annoying.

Finally, we seem to have reached a point (as mentioned above) where the mobs are cake but the traps are horribly hard. This should this be a pretty good sign of a vicious imbalance in design. More importantly, what's more fun: killing mobs or watching another player (try to) take down traps? Big melee or dying, running and rezzing on the other side, hmmm?

As in my prior post, the key to the right difficulty level is where it's fun for the most number of players most of the time. Aberations are rarely fun and only then for folks with that frame of mind.

Best,

Aladon

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 02:13 PM
I don't have any major issues with this, but I think that we should be including other high reflex characters in this discussion as well. If Bards, Rangers, and eventually Monks, are failing a majority if their trap saves, even on elite, I think we have gone too far. It devalues high reflex saves for a class. And if they're failing, what about all the low reflex save classes. I don't think not having a rogue should guarantee a party wipe, even on Elite. I think that on Normal, even with little or no gear or enhancements, a level appropriate rogue with decent Dex, should fail on a 1. Other high reflex save classes should fail a little more often. On elite, I think it's fair to assume a higher dex, a few enhancements and some moderate gear should be assumed in determining the difficulty and that rogue should save of a 4 or so. Someone who really maxes out reflex saves should pretty much fail on a 1. But I don't think trap difficulties should be an automatic fail for everyone but a rogue though.

One of the problems when trying to fine tune the game based on DCs, is that they are a lot of ways to meet a challenge. It's really a very imprecise tool. A lot of the classes favored for splash rogue bulids also get high reflex saves, namely Rangers and Bards. If you try to make life hard for them, you really make life hard for everyone because there really isn't that much difference in their capabilities. Paladins with rogue splashes chan also hit the needed saves, but they have other problems concerning MAD and skill points. The Splash that would be impacted the most by increased trap DCs is the Wizard/ Rogue. A lot of these characters stick with 1 level of rogue to avoid losing caster levels. The low reflex save progression of the Wizard, along with a tendency to dump dex on some characters and the lack of evasion on the rogue 1 builds, would make even a slight increase in DC's an issue. Yes, they do get some buffs like resists, False Life and Nightshield, but it could be difficult to adjust and they are less effective against mechanical traps. But I don't really want to see them have to re-roll. If they decide to keep boosted DCs, we may have to find a way to include Arcane Trickster. The actual PrC requires 3 levels of rogue(without other PrCs being available) and the addition of a high Reflex save progression could keep these characters viable as a trapsmith in elite, at the cost of caster levels.

I'm not opposed to a modest increase, but I think the likely results of this change need to be thought out a little more fully and balanced a little better. But most of all, I wish the devs were talking to us about this a little more. As people mentioned in the old threads on AC an attack bonuses, you only have a spread of 20 before it becomes nearly automatic failure vs. nearly automatic success. At level 20, the difference between good saves and poor saves is 6, a 12 vs. a 6. We need to be careful how wide we make the gap when equipment and abilities are added.

I would counter by saying that reflex saves are used for more than just traps, but only rogues and barbarians get trap sense, so traps should be balanced based on favoring a class that has full trap sense capabilities. At lvl 15 a rogue has 5 extra points in trap sense with feats and a possible 4 extra from enhancements. That is a 5-9 point advantage over any high dex character with equal dex(regardless of how high or low). At the very least the trap dc's should take that 5 points into consideration.

On elite I don't think anyone should be able to save on a 1, unless you are completely trap minded, meaning you have high dex, all 9 points of trap sense you have turned on improved uncanny dodge and have a decent reflex save item, less prepared rogues should fail on a 5-7 and those without the basic trap sense feats should fail on a 8-10(basically much ofthe difference coming from the basic feats). The guarantees that the investment in rogue levels means something, because taking 2 levels of rogue and having high dex should equal a lvl 15 rogue. Its like saying I can take 1 lvls of barbarian and have access to greater rage, or 2 lvls of wizard, and be able to cast lvl 8 spells

EinarMal
02-15-2008, 02:21 PM
On elite I don't think anyone should be able to save on a 1, unless you are completely trap minded, meaning you have high dex, all 9 points of trap sense you have turned on improved uncanny dodge and have a decent reflex save item, less prepared rogues should fail on a 5-7 and those without the basic trap sense feats should fail on a 8-10(basically much ofthe difference coming from the basic feats). The guarantees that the investment in rogue levels means something, because taking 2 levels of rogue and having high dex should equal a lvl 15 rogue. Its like saying I can take 1 lvls of barbarian and have access to greater rage, or 2 lvls of wizard, and be able to cast lvl 8 spells

This is not possible in a D20 system. That means that any non-Rogue pretty much as to roll a 18-20 to be able to save against the trap. This is not balanced with everything else on elite, why should traps be an exception? This same arguement, and I believe how it use to work, could be made for mob AC, mob damage done per swing etc...

What you seem to be saying is that you need about a 50 reflex save to save on a 1. That means that a really good reflex save of 30 (good against mob spells and anything else) is useless for traps on elite, might as well be a fighter with a reflex save of 10.

It makes no sense that the traps in an elite dungeon are more out of proportion with everything else. How about giving Rogues better abilities and not making trap DC the reason to keep them around? That will not work in the long run, for the few quests that require running through traps a trap monkey might get invited, but for the other 95% of quests they will not because they gimp their build to do one small part of the game.

Traps are just another challenge in a dungeon just like a red named mob. One should not be out of the normal reasonable level challenge and the other not. So, I guess all mobs on elite should have 55 AC so only those "really focused" on high to-hit like 50 str Barbarians can hit them (that is only fair right?)

miceelf88
02-15-2008, 02:22 PM
I don't know that anyone is expecting the devs to keep up with all of this. But at some point even an acknowledgement that this is controversial would be a start.

We don't even know if they were intended to be THIS out of whack at this point. (I know they intended to up the difficulties and damage somewhat, but reflex 30 on level 1 elite? suggests that implementation might have been a problem).

We don't know if they will even consider revisiting this. If this is intended. If they're already reconsidering it. We don't know nothin.

Is this thing on?

krud
02-15-2008, 02:27 PM
I'm going to take an issue with a few of the bonuses being tossed around here. A 30 dex was considered low. For VON, how high a level are we talking about? Yes, a twinked drow or a 32pt halfling or elf can do it fairly easily, but it's not so easy for other races and 28 pt. buillds. Do we really want to limit the races that can be rogues in elite so narrowly(except for Paladin splashes)? Let's look at what a 28 pt human can achieve for Dex at 12th level:
18 start
3 levels
3 rogue enhancements
1 human enhancement
5 Dex item

Total: 30
That is the max value excluding tomes. WF, dwarves, or half-orcs(when we get them) would max out at 29. A twelth level could have reached 1750 but it would be a pretty good feat, not to mention the fact that he would have had to face everything on elite to get there in the first place. You could use a +1 tome, but most people I know do not have a ready supply of tomes and are reluctant to use a tome if they plan on taking their favor tome in their prime stat.

Also, consider the cost for the above build. That 28 pt. human now has 12 points left to distribute. If you want Intelligence for traps and skills and Con for hit points you might end up with a build like this:
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 8

I would never want to play a character with so many dumped stats, especially a Rogue. Then consider the enhancement costs. That +4 to dex requires 14 APs, 3.5 levels worth. If you want to include the Trap Sense enhancements, add another 10 APs for a total of 24, 6 levels worth of APs. Half of your APs. If you want focus on traps, you'll need some of the disabling enhancements, Way of the Mechanic(and it's prereqs.) There aren't many APs left for anything else after that.

I'd also like to add that while it's perfectly fine to include Uncanny Dodge in the calculations, it is a relatively short term boost and it is limited to a few times a day.
.

It's not necessary to min/max as much as you say. Drop dex to 16 and you get 6 build points to shuffle around however you like. Just playing around on the character planner i made a generic 28pt human 12 rog. Max ranks in every important rogue skill with plenty of extra skill points to allocate. AP can be shuffled for a more focused build. Way of the mechanic is not necessary. Combat is not sacrificed, not the greatest, but not incapable of fighting. Even without a major trapsmithing focus with enhancements and feats, he is still plenty capable of getting thru elite content at level 12. Hardly gimped, and minimally twinked. Halfling, elf or drow gets even better.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.80
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 12 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Rogue)
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 16
Will: 4

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 12) (with +4/5item)
Strength 12 12 (16)
Dexterity 16 23 (28)
Constitution 14 14 (18)
Intelligence 12 12 (16)
Wisdom 10 10 (14)
Charisma 10 10 (14)

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 12)
Balance 7 17
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 0 2
Disable Device 5 18
Haggle 4 7
Heal 0 0
Hide 7 21
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 5 10
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 7 21
Open Lock 7 22
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 5 18
Spot 4 17
Swim 1 1
Tumble n/a 7
Use Magic Device 4 18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip

Level 2 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense

Level 4 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense III


what can we expect?

+38 reflex save, unbuffed:
base +8
dex +9
trap sense (feat) +4
trap sense (enh) +3
imp uncanny dodge +4
HV save boost +4
lightning reflexes +2
resist item +4 (trapblast goggles)

trapsmithing w/+11 gear, unbuffed
spot 30
search 35
DD 42 with +5 lockpicks
OL 44 " "

llevenbaxx
02-15-2008, 02:44 PM
On elite I don't think anyone should be able to save on a 1, unless you are completely trap minded, meaning you have high dex, all 9 points of trap sense you have turned on improved uncanny dodge and have a decent reflex save item, less prepared rogues should fail on a 5-7 and those without the basic trap sense feats should fail on a 8-10(basically much ofthe difference coming from the basic feats). The guarantees that the investment in rogue levels means something, because taking 2 levels of rogue and having high dex should equal a lvl 15 rogue. Its like saying I can take 1 lvls of barbarian and have access to greater rage, or 2 lvls of wizard, and be able to cast lvl 8 spells

I guess I would be ok with that if they had a class in the game called "Trapsmith". Barbarians use there rage on everything, same for wizards and their spells. I completely disagree that a rogue should have to completely sell out on trap everything to be able to do the elite stuff reliably(only talking save DC really). It is a small part of the game, if you are going to expect rogues to gimp themselves to be a 100% reliable trapsmith, they arent going to find any love for the rest of the content when it comes to grouping. Imo, traps are supposed to be a perk of having a rogue along, not "****, we need an all out trapsmith for this part". They are a unique class which you cant really compare to the more structured classes.

Traps are not the end all be all of the game. They are a small part of what a rogue does, even on elite settings. I think Turbine needs to reclue in on this fact.

Wildseed
02-15-2008, 03:35 PM
As a non-rogue person (traps being the end all and be all is not me) I have many chars with a splash of rogue. I have a 10fighter/3 pally/3rogue. I refuse to invest any feats into roguing, even if I were a straight rogue. I think the requirement of a feat totally negates the 'fun' factor for me and don't think it should be a "requirement" for anything like a trap (that's right cabal trap is the only one I can't get on my rogues) I also have an up and coming 14ranger/2rogue(3/2 right now), and 15wizard/1rogue (12/1 right now)(in preparation for arcane trickster. Although i do realize when it's in the game I might have to reroll her and do more rogue. I want to see the implementation before I decide though) I also have a 15 cleric/1 rogue (right now is 3/1 though she's in planning stage) I don't think traps are the be all and end all for me that's why all of my chars have a rogue splash and aren't a full rogue. Now a friend of mine has a rogue build i might try out that's a full rogue but if not built right, rogues are squishy and can't take the heat which is why I splash with other things. If I've invested the points into being a rogue I don't expect to be a full rogue but I do expect to be able to do some roguish things. The game is mistaken anyway, from its implementation ... all classes should be able to learn disarm I learned it in pnp the few weeks I played. They didn't allow that, fine then let me play MY rogue and that's what she is My rogue how I want to play her. Don't tell me how to play her. Trap DCs are out of whack can't stand in the trap or even go through it with high dex/reflex that is wrong. Please fix it.

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 03:36 PM
I guess I would be ok with that if they had a class in the game called "Trapsmith". Barbarians use there rage on everything, same for wizards and their spells. I completely disagree that a rogue should have to completely sell out on trap everything to be able to do the elite stuff reliably(only talking save DC really). It is a small part of the game, if you are going to expect rogues to gimp themselves to be a 100% reliable trapsmith, they arent going to find any love for the rest of the content when it comes to grouping. Imo, traps are supposed to be a perk of having a rogue along, not "****, we need an all out trapsmith for this part". They are a unique class which you cant really compare to the more structured classes.

Traps are not the end all be all of the game. They are a small part of what a rogue does, even on elite settings. I think Turbine needs to reclue in on this fact.

but they don't the 5 points from trap sense is free, I never said they should have to dump everything else, I am simply saying that 5 points should matter on elite, the rest is up to the persion making the build, but given equal race and stats a lvl 15 rogue should always come out ahead against an mc rogue or just someone high saves.

Rangers do not get any reflex save bonuses to traps
Fighter same
Clerics same
Bards same
wizards same
sorcerers same
Paladins get an overall bonus to all saves based on charisma bonus
Barbarians have both trap sense and improved uncanny dodge so given everthing else ebing equal they should equal a rogue spent no enhancements

That being said only someone with at least 2 paladin lvls or mostly barabarian should have an equal trap reflex save given equal race and stats. This in no way means that a strength based dwarven rogue with only say 14 base dex might be outclassed by a 24 base dex halfing 14 ranger/2 rogue who has taken all the race based save enhancements.This is expected, but even with that great disparity in stats, the ranger has a 7 dex bonus, and the rogue has a 2, but tack on the free feats and he equals the ranger with a 10 less dex.

This is the value in investing in rogue levels for traps and we are only talking about traps, and while rogues are more than trapsmiths, the feats scale with level and the gap grows to 5 points at lvl 15, therefore as I said given equal race and stats and no enhancements the rogue should come out 5 points ahead and the trap dc's should reward that.

Traps may be only one part if the game but they are there and the best class to survive them is the rogue, if you are not going to support that as a feature then why bother having traps in the game at all, or never make traps where you have to get past it or be in it, or lower the dc's so that everyone saves.

Seneca_Windforge
02-15-2008, 03:49 PM
This is not possible in a D20 system. That means that any non-Rogue pretty much as to roll a 18-20 to be able to save against the trap. This is not balanced with everything else on elite, why should traps be an exception? This same arguement, and I believe how it use to work, could be made for mob AC, mob damage done per swing etc...

What you seem to be saying is that you need about a 50 reflex save to save on a 1. That means that a really good reflex save of 30 (good against mob spells and anything else) is useless for traps on elite, might as well be a fighter with a reflex save of 10.

It makes no sense that the traps in an elite dungeon are more out of proportion with everything else. How about giving Rogues better abilities and not making trap DC the reason to keep them around? That will not work in the long run, for the few quests that require running through traps a trap monkey might get invited, but for the other 95% of quests they will not because they gimp their build to do one small part of the game.

Traps are just another challenge in a dungeon just like a red named mob. One should not be out of the normal reasonable level challenge and the other not. So, I guess all mobs on elite should have 55 AC so only those "really focused" on high to-hit like 50 str Barbarians can hit them (that is only fair right?)

QFT.

This is basically what I've been wanting to say for a while now.

shores11
02-15-2008, 03:55 PM
I really like the direction that the game is going in concerning rogues. In order to get a true "trapsmith" rogue you have to have high levels of evasion which in turn cuts down your damage. Those players that want an all inclusive character that can do everything just is not D&D. D&D characters are designed by nature to depend on each other to accomplish a succesful quest. Thank you developers for finally listening to the pure rogues of the game.

By the way my pure class rogue has no problem whatsoever with the traps in VoN 3 or VoN 5 on elite with disabling or with the trap DC.

Harper Moonblade
Kyber

Seneca_Windforge
02-15-2008, 04:01 PM
I really like the direction that the game is going in concerning rogues. In order to get a true "trapsmith" rogue you have to have high levels of evasion which in turn cuts down your damage. Those players that want an all inclusive character that can do everything just is not D&D. D&D characters are designed by nature to depend on each other to accomplish a succesful quest. Thank you developers for finally listening to the pure rogues of the game.

By the way my pure class rogue has no problem whatsoever with the traps in VoN 3 or VoN 5 on elite with disabling or with the trap DC.

Harper Moonblade
Kyber

So you'd rather people take a rogue along because they *have* to, rather than because they *want* to?

I'd rather rogues get some good abilities, not have to invest heavily in trap removal skills (which is a tertiary ability for them anyway), and be invited because a group sees them as a valuable class.

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 04:03 PM
As a non-rogue person (traps being the end all and be all is not me) I have many chars with a splash of rogue. I have a 10fighter/3 pally/3rogue. I refuse to invest any feats into roguing, even if I were a straight rogue. I think the requirement of a feat totally negates the 'fun' factor for me and don't think it should be a "requirement" for anything like a trap (that's right cabal trap is the only one I can't get on my rogues) I also have an up and coming 14ranger/2rogue(3/2 right now), and 15wizard/1rogue (12/1 right now)(in preparation for arcane trickster. Although i do realize when it's in the game I might have to reroll her and do more rogue. I want to see the implementation before I decide though) I also have a 15 cleric/1 rogue (right now is 3/1 though she's in planning stage) I don't think traps are the be all and end all for me that's why all of my chars have a rogue splash and aren't a full rogue. Now a friend of mine has a rogue build i might try out that's a full rogue but if not built right, rogues are squishy and can't take the heat which is why I splash with other things. If I've invested the points into being a rogue I don't expect to be a full rogue but I do expect to be able to do some roguish things. The game is mistaken anyway, from its implementation ... all classes should be able to learn disarm I learned it in pnp the few weeks I played. They didn't allow that, fine then let me play MY rogue and that's what she is My rogue how I want to play her. Don't tell me how to play her. Trap DCs are out of whack can't stand in the trap or even go through it with high dex/reflex that is wrong. Please fix it.

what you have invested in is disable device, open lock and evasion. This should not buy you anything other than the ability to disable a trap box and take no damage if you make your reflex save. You should gain no advantage or be on par with a rogue of the same race and same stats(except maybe the pally mc if you have 20 charisma) and no enhancements taken. On normal and hard anyone with a good dex and decent items should get through most of the time, but on elite there should be a reward for sticking with rogue levels, the reward is the feat trap sense, and it should make the same trap much easier for the rogue than a non rogue or mc.

Wildseed
02-15-2008, 04:03 PM
but they don't the 5 points from trap sense is free, I never said they should have to dump everything else, I am simply saying that 5 points should matter on elite, the rest is up to the persion making the build, but given equal race and stats a lvl 15 rogue should always come out ahead against an mc rogue or just someone high saves.

Rangers do not get any reflex save bonuses to traps
Fighter same
Clerics same
Bards same
wizards same
sorcerers same
Paladins get an overall bonus to all saves based on charisma bonus
Barbarians have both trap sense and improved uncanny dodge so given everthing else ebing equal they should equal a rogue spent no enhancements

That being said only someone with at least 2 paladin lvls or mostly barabarian should have an equal trap reflex save given equal race and stats. This in no way means that a strength based dwarven rogue with only say 14 base dex might be outclassed by a 24 base dex halfing 14 ranger/2 rogue who has taken all the race based save enhancements.This is expected, but even with that great disparity in stats, the ranger has a 7 dex bonus, and the rogue has a 2, but tack on the free feats and he equals the ranger with a 10 less dex.

This is the value in investing in rogue levels for traps and we are only talking about traps, and while rogues are more than trapsmiths, the feats scale with level and the gap grows to 5 points at lvl 15, therefore as I said given equal race and stats and no enhancements the rogue should come out 5 points ahead and the trap dc's should reward that.

Traps may be only one part if the game but they are there and the best class to survive them is the rogue, if you are not going to support that as a feature then why bother having traps in the game at all, or never make traps where you have to get past it or be in it, or lower the dc's so that everyone saves.

First of all, feats aren't free... Every feat taken must be weighed with what could have been. that lightning reflex could've been dodge, or TWF, or ITWF, or STWF or ... well you get the point. Feats are only nothing maybe to a fighter because they get so many. On a rogue they are finite and to me I think they could be better spent elsewhere, does that make my version of a rogue less than the rogue that took it, yes. should I have to take the feat to get through a trap I have to disarm. NO. I shouldn't have to, it should not be based on who took the most feats. Now if you're talking about saving on a 1 yes, I agree ... if you're talking saving on a 10 or something well I should be able to on elite. Yes traps should be dangerous, however do we really want the die in the trap rez on the other side thing again? I believe I recall having to do this before until they fixed it.

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 04:07 PM
So you'd rather people take a rogue along because they *have* to, rather than because they *want* to?

I'd rather rogues get some good abilities, not have to invest heavily in trap removal skills (which is a tertiary ability for them anyway), and be invited because a group sees them as a valuable class.

my point is that rogues do not have to invest a lot, as far as DD and OL rogues with even a 12 int have easily enough to keep those maxxed. Even a rogue with 14 dex base dex at lvl 15 has the equivalent of any other class having a base 24 dex(except pallys) without spending anything

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 04:10 PM
First of all, feats aren't free... Every feat taken must be weighed with what could have been. that lightning reflex could've been dodge, or TWF, or ITWF, or STWF or ... well you get the point. Feats are only nothing maybe to a fighter because they get so many. On a rogue they are finite and to me I think they could be better spent elsewhere, does that make my version of a rogue less than the rogue that took it, yes. should I have to take the feat to get through a trap I have to disarm. NO. I shouldn't have to, it should not be based on who took the most feats. Now if you're talking about saving on a 1 yes, I agree ... if you're talking saving on a 10 or something well I should be able to on elite. Yes traps should be dangerous, however do we really want the die in the trap rez on the other side thing again? I believe I recall having to do this before until they fixed it.

class feats are free if you take the levels

trap sense is a freely granted class feat per the compendium starting at lvl 3


Trap Sense
Rogues receive a +1 bonus to saves against traps. This bonus increases by +1 every three rogue levels thereafter.

Seneca_Windforge
02-15-2008, 04:16 PM
my point is that rogues do not have to invest a lot, as far as DD and OL rogues with even a 12 int have easily enough to keep those maxxed. Even a rogue with 14 dex base dex at lvl 15 has the equivalent of any other class having a base 24 dex(except pallys) without spending anything

And yet he'll probably get butchered by the elite traps unless his dexterity is higher.

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 04:18 PM
And yet he'll probably get butchered by the elite traps unless his dexterity is higher.

and so would the 24 dex ranger because they are equal in the end given the feat bonuses the rogue has, but a 24 base dex rogue will happily make most of his saves and collect their stones

edit: Right now I think everyone agrees the dc's are out of whack for everyone and Turbine shoud lower them, the question is should they be lowered to where the rogue 5 point advantage doesn't mean anything or should they be just hig enough that a full rogue has little trouble but a mc rogue or someone with just high dex is going to have some issues. I am for the second option.

Wildseed
02-15-2008, 04:31 PM
class feats are free if you take the levels

trap sense is a freely granted class feat per the compendium starting at lvl 3

I am not talking about trap sense. I am talking about lightning reflexes and some of the "NOT" free feats.

krud
02-15-2008, 05:38 PM
So you'd rather people take a rogue along because they *have* to, rather than because they *want* to?

I'd rather rogues get some good abilities, not have to invest heavily in trap removal skills (which is a tertiary ability for them anyway), and be invited because a group sees them as a valuable class.

Funny how people are complaining about being "required" to bring along a certain class in order to do a quest. How many groups do you see tackling level appropriate elite quests without a cleric? Not very often. What about battle clerics? They can be considered the healers version of an MCrogue. Would everyone be comfortable if the majority of clerics were "battle" clerics? I doubt it. Now that a rogue brings something valuable to a party people are up in arms.

It's elite. It should be a challenge. A DC 40-45 trap for a lvl 10-12 rogue is not a problem, even without a huge feat/AP investment. It is for some of the wannabe rogues. I see nothing wrong here.

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 06:06 PM
I am not talking about trap sense. I am talking about lightning reflexes and some of the "NOT" free feats.

if a mc rogue wants to get closer to the saves achievable by full rogues then yes they should have to use up some feats, full rogues with a fairly high dex should not have to as the trap sense feats should put them over the top into the realm of saving a majority of the time, however a rogue who maxes out dex and trap sense enhancements and on top of that takes lightning reflexes should save on anything but a 1-3 when sporting gh and improved uncanny dodge

Angelus_dead
02-15-2008, 06:10 PM
however a rogue who maxes out dex and trap sense enhancements and on top of that takes lightning reflexes should save on anything but a 1-3 when sporting gh and improved uncanny dodge
No. A rogue who devotes that many feats and enhancements should save on 1-3 even when his Greater Heroism is dispelled and he gets hit with curse, symbol of pain, or other debuffs.

krud
02-15-2008, 06:17 PM
No. A rogue who devotes that many feats and enhancements should save on 1-3 even when his Greater Heroism is dispelled and he gets hit with curse, symbol of pain, or other debuffs.
or in other words, "an MC splash rogue should be able to save as much as a real rogue."

How many elite quests do you go into unbuffed? They become real challenges when buffs get removed, even for melee. Needing buffs to have a 90+% chance of success at certain elite traps is not extreme by any measure. Would you expect any caster who MC 2 or more levels in a melee class to be able to PK elite mobs as well as a full caster, or swing a sword as well as the 14ftr next to him?

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 06:20 PM
No. A rogue who devotes that many feats and enhancements should save on 1-3 even when his Greater Heroism is dispelled and he gets hit with curse, symbol of pain, or other debuffs.

as long as the ranger/rogue f in the same condition fails on a 10-13

Pellegro
02-15-2008, 07:02 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to post the DCs of these supposedly too difficult traps.

I checked a lvl 7 quest - Gwylans. The DCs were 38 if I recall, on elite.

While you may not like it, elite is not +2. (As an aside, nor should it be .. apoint I'd gladly take up in another thread).

A level 10 or 11 rogue should be able to handle the 38 DC of the trap more than half the time.

That means that (a) if you fail to properly avoid the trap using your commonsense or mess up and trigger it, then (b) you've still got a better that 50/50 shot at living.

Highly specialized rogues, or even highly buffed rogues, will do much better than 50/50, even at level 10-11.

Avoiding the traps has nothing to do with manual dexterity either. It involves timing and playing smart.

I see no problem, but if someone would post these supposedly impossible DCs I'd love to be able to compare the numbers of the only class in game who should be able to have any chance of ignoring an elite trap (i.e. full class rogue), and what their chances are of surviving.

Nobody complains that Mobs will kill them if they aren't dispatched by appropriate characters .... Traps are now like elite mobs. You've got to plan to deal with them.

Scholar
02-15-2008, 07:32 PM
I'mI checked a lvl 7 quest - Gwylans. The DCs were 38 if I recall, on elite.

While you may not like it, elite is not +2. (As an aside, nor should it be .. apoint I'd gladly take up in another thread).

A level 10 or 11 rogue should be able to handle the 38 DC of the trap more than half the time.

Why are you using a 10th or 11th level rogue as a comparison for a level SEVEN quest?? It's just as bad as using a level 11 rogue for the dragon raid. There were NO level 11's when it was created. You were supposed to be able to complete it, on elite, with a team of characters of no higher then 10th level. Wonder how many of you have your home DM tell you you failed on a 19 every time you run into a trap in his campaign, and are not the rogue. Bet that would go over real well.

ArkoHighStar
02-15-2008, 07:37 PM
Why are you using a 10th or 11th level rogue as a comparison for a level SEVEN quest?? It's just as bad as using a level 11 rogue for the dragon raid. There were NO level 11's when it was created. You were supposed to be able to complete it, on elite, with a team of characters of no higher then 10th level. Wonder how many of you have your home DM tell you you failed on a 19 every time you run into a trap in his campaign, and are not the rogue. Bet that would go over real well.

It is lvl 9 on elite, and his belief is that elite is really more than +2 so a lvl 10-11 rogue is the right lvl for that to be doable, personally I thiknk a lvl 9 rogue on gwylans elite should have a much better chance than 50/50 he should be failing on a 6 or lower giving non rogues with the same stats and race a 50/50 chance which seems much more in line.

Seneca_Windforge
02-15-2008, 09:27 PM
Funny how people are complaining about being "required" to bring along a certain class in order to do a quest. How many groups do you see tackling level appropriate elite quests without a cleric? Not very often. What about battle clerics? They can be considered the healers version of an MCrogue. Would everyone be comfortable if the majority of clerics were "battle" clerics? I doubt it. Now that a rogue brings something valuable to a party people are up in arms.

It's elite. It should be a challenge. A DC 40-45 trap for a lvl 10-12 rogue is not a problem, even without a huge feat/AP investment. It is for some of the wannabe rogues. I see nothing wrong here.

So my level 11 dwarven rogue9/ranger2 is a "wannabe rogue"? Buffed up with Greater Heroism, I'm probably not too much higher than +26-27 reflex versus traps, not including Improved Uncanny Dodge. So, yes -- a DC 40-45 trap for a level 11ish rogue IS a problem unless you jack up your trap reflex save by spending APs and feats.

My rogue brings plenty of things to the table -- he's a tough fighter than can dish out AND take a considerable amount of damage! Rogues are NOT only about traps. They can bring valuable things to the party that have nothing to do with trap removal...but now, they're pretty much going to be pigeonholed into that role.

Oh, and I love battle clerics, by the way. And no, I don't always take a cleric with me into elite content.

Angelus_dead
02-15-2008, 10:48 PM
A level 10 or 11 rogue should be able to handle the 38 DC of the trap more than half the time.
You seem to have an illusion that a 50% chance is a good success rate.


Nobody complains that Mobs will kill them if they aren't dispatched by appropriate characters .... Traps are now like elite mobs. You've got to plan to deal with them.
Of course nobody complains, because it doesn't happen.
Any level 14 character can walk into a level 4 quest on elite and kill all the mobs himself with almost no risk. But very many characters of level 14 or even 16 will die in the traps- not only mages and clerics, but even rangers as well.

Putting a quest on elite adds +4 CR to the monsters, and +10 CR to the trap damage/saves.

krud
02-16-2008, 12:43 AM
So my level 11 dwarven rogue9/ranger2 is a "wannabe rogue"? Buffed up with Greater Heroism, I'm probably not too much higher than +26-27 reflex versus traps, not including Improved Uncanny Dodge. So, yes -- a DC 40-45 trap for a level 11ish rogue IS a problem unless you jack up your trap reflex save by spending APs and feats.

My rogue brings plenty of things to the table -- he's a tough fighter than can dish out AND take a considerable amount of damage! Rogues are NOT only about traps. They can bring valuable things to the party that have nothing to do with trap removal...but now, they're pretty much going to be pigeonholed into that role.

Oh, and I love battle clerics, by the way. And no, I don't always take a cleric with me into elite content.

You have a slightly less than average reflex save for a level 11 rog. Should average be enough to guarantee success on elite? Since you went with a non dex race, and focused on combat, your reflex save is a few points behind. It is a trade off. Just like a wiz skimping on int and taking a few levels of MC so he can swing a sword, is gonna make his elite PKs somewhat iffy. All it takes is 3AP to get +2 trap sense. Hardly a huge AP investment. Add UD and you have a reflex save of +33. For a DC 40 trap you fail 30% of the time. For most rogues its 20% or less.

With good gear an unbuffed max specced trap rogue, or an above average fully buffed rogue, should be able to save against elite traps with some room to spare. A fully buffed average rogue should have some chance at failure, and a rogue with below average saves will find it a little iffy. For anyone else with no reflex save running thru elite traps should be problematic. Having one or two traps out there that push the envelope is not extreme. Especially, considering this one is in a raid. How hard can it be to make room in a party of 12 for one halfway decent rogue?

btw - has anyone detrmined the actual DC of this trap?

Angelus_dead
02-16-2008, 12:48 AM
You have a below average to average reflex save for a level 11 rog. Should average be enough to guarantee success on elite?
It's not an issue of "guaranteed success". It's a question of "Can I save on ANYTHING but a natural 20?"

krud
02-16-2008, 01:13 AM
It's not an issue of "guaranteed success". It's a question of "Can I save on ANYTHING but a natural 20?"

A little extreme dontcha think? For an average rogue it's more like 80% success or better. For the average non-rogue without a good reflex save it should be trouble. Running straight thru elite traps should hurt those without a good reflex save. Besides, not all elite traps are in the same category as the von5 traps

Seneca_Windforge
02-16-2008, 03:36 AM
You have a slightly less than average reflex save for a level 11 rog. Should average be enough to guarantee success on elite? Since you went with a non dex race, and focused on combat, your reflex save is a few points behind. It is a trade off. Just like a wiz skimping on int and taking a few levels of MC so he can swing a sword, is gonna make his elite PKs somewhat iffy. All it takes is 3AP to get +2 trap sense. Hardly a huge AP investment. Add UD and you have a reflex save of +33. For a DC 40 trap you fail 30% of the time. For most rogues its 20% or less.

With good gear an unbuffed max specced trap rogue, or an above average fully buffed rogue, should be able to save against elite traps with some room to spare. A fully buffed average rogue should have some chance at failure, and a rogue with below average saves will find it a little iffy. For anyone else with no reflex save running thru elite traps should be problematic. Having one or two traps out there that push the envelope is not extreme. Especially, considering this one is in a raid. How hard can it be to make room in a party of 12 for one halfway decent rogue?

btw - has anyone detrmined the actual DC of this trap?

Uh...you realize that a "halfway decent" rogue won't cut it, right?

I already have the first level of the trap sense enhancement.

I am +19 by default (9 base, 6 dex, 4 trapblast). Versus traps, I am +23 from trap sense + trap sense enhancement. +27 with Greater Heroism (thankfully I have a Planar Gird...). Improved Uncanny Dodge (which I have only two uses of per rest) gets me to +31.

Is there really a point to putting more points in the trap sense enhancement? I mean, seriously...even with Improved Uncanny Dodge running, the most I could jack it up to would be +34 (for two bursts, it would drop to 30 the rest of the time), and that would be after spending an additional NINE action points. That still leaves me failing 25% of the time on a DC 40 trap, and with the increased damage they do, even my 188 hit points won't last long.

Yeah, I could've been an elf and jacked my dexterity up and left my strength low...but that's exactly the problem here. In order to be a "good" rogue who won't get butchered by traps they may have to run through to disable, people are going to be pigeonholed into the same old maxed-out dexterity/super high Reflex save build every time.

Seneca_Windforge
02-16-2008, 03:38 AM
A little extreme dontcha think? For an average rogue it's more like 80% success or better. For the average non-rogue without a good reflex save it should be trouble. Running straight thru elite traps should hurt those without a good reflex save. Besides, not all elite traps are in the same category as the von5 traps

A "good" Reflex save isn't enough; the new elite trap DCs require seriously jacked-up Reflex saves. A ranger or bard who is constantly saving versus enemy spells in a particular quest is now rather screwed if they happen to run into a trap.

krud
02-16-2008, 10:07 AM
Uh...you realize that a "halfway decent" rogue won't cut it, right?

I already have the first level of the trap sense enhancement.

I am +19 by default (9 base, 6 dex, 4 trapblast). Versus traps, I am +23 from trap sense + trap sense enhancement. +27 with Greater Heroism (thankfully I have a Planar Gird...). Improved Uncanny Dodge (which I have only two uses of per rest) gets me to +31.

Is there really a point to putting more points in the trap sense enhancement? I mean, seriously...even with Improved Uncanny Dodge running, the most I could jack it up to would be +34 (for two bursts, it would drop to 30 the rest of the time), and that would be after spending an additional NINE action points. That still leaves me failing 25% of the time on a DC 40 trap, and with the increased damage they do, even my 188 hit points won't last long.

Yeah, I could've been an elf and jacked my dexterity up and left my strength low...but that's exactly the problem here. In order to be a "good" rogue who won't get butchered by traps they may have to run through to disable, people are going to be pigeonholed into the same old maxed-out dexterity/super high Reflex save build every time.

Avoiding traps is a dex based skill. You neglected it in a class that typically excels in it. Why should it be made easy?

Should a dwarven str based ranger be able to pick up a bow and hit elite mobs as much as a bow specced dex based ranger? Afterall, he still is a ranger and rangers shoot bows. Should he even be able to hit elite mobs as much as an average, partially specced ranger? To be good at something will require some kind of investment. Dex is necessary to avoid traps. You chose str and comabt feats/enhancments to be able to excel at something else. What is the point of having all those feats and enhancements in game if all that is necessary is to be slightly below average? Your scores will still guarantee a good chance on normal or hard. One elite raid trap gives you a problem and now everthing is too hard?

As far as MC rogues, I have an elf 1rgr/15wiz. I like to shoot bows. Without any feats or enhancements I should be able to hit elite mobs as well as that average partially specced ranger, right? Even buffed to the max I can't always hit some elite mobs every time. On top of that, my spell DC should also be as good as any other wiz out there even though I took a level of ranger. I should be able to skimp on INT for DEX, and be able to land my PKs as well as anyone else. Why should I have to spend AP and feats and buff myself to the max to be able equal an average dex ranger at the expense of my spell casting ability?

Emili
02-16-2008, 10:37 AM
I do not think anyone here is really getting my points at all...

A trap in DnD is nothing more than an obstacle. It's the same as any mob. In PnP we do not require any one class for a party and their are more ways to deal with a trap then having someone scoot their bum over there and toy with a little box. I mean seriously I can build a barb/rogue too and get improved uncanny dodge as you've stataed (PnP DnD wise)... but what you're all failing to see is you're trying to make some arguement for justifying uncanny dodge and improved evasion to the point of where it's a near requirement in some quests. You seem to want a poper challenge for the pure rogue who's spec'd to deal with this yet eliminate most the others... with that said the axe should swing both ways. Lets give the melee and casters a proper challenge in here too. Maybe they should have never changed the switches and runes at the doors? Maybe they should have put them as a 30 str 30 int instead of the 25 str 20 wis they have now?

I suppose if you feel this need to stress such importance on elite for these obstacles I should turn arround and "right-tune" the dungeon. By adjusting these trap obstacles to what they are now. It's my viewpoint they should do the same with the rest of the obstacles to make the dugeon truely balanced...

As such they should adjust the trash mob AC, HP and Saves in elite Von 5 to match. Bring the mob up to where you need a full BaB 11 plus full (str/dex mod +10) plus feat and buff to even hit the Mob so an ac minimum 40 on all mob. Increase the mob's hp by 10 swings worth of so - +800hp. That attunes the dungeon to proper balance mob for real melee challenge now... mob and traps are equal now and is just the start. Let us look into mob saves to make heighten and spell focus's challenges next, Let us strive to making every class ability and every feat a near requirement. We're just getting started to make a propperly balanced dungeon for elite content. Let's take every single quest and guarentee that on elite every full blown class is required and is challenged in it on elite. Every party will require a melee, caster, cleric, rogue, ranger and bard(to fill in some gaps) and the standard on elite should be within +5 from max capability (plus buffs) of any toon in thier respectable area of expertise.

Thank You.

krud
02-16-2008, 11:23 AM
Not every trap is as high as that one trap in von5. That one is the exception, yet everyone is talking as if it were the norm. Let's not make it out like it is just like every other generic mob in the game. It is the red boss of traps for rogues. There are some bosses that are more easily beat down by melee while casters can only buff, and others that can be turned into an easy challenge with a well specced caster, while the melee just flail away. Many have shown that an average save rogue, with the right buffs should have a good chance at these traps. If a rogue is lacking, without a slew of buffs and some creativity it will be a challenge, no different than a stat damaging dex fighter finding he can't deal enough damage to that red boss. Sometimes you can't be everything, there are trade offs in character builds.

A comparison to PnP doesn't work for traps. A computer is not going to be able to satisfy all the possibilities a party of real people can come up with for dealing with these situations. So we get the trapbox in DDO, and rogues to deal with them. Has anyone considered inviting 2 rogues to the group (OMG! no!), just like everyone brings 2 clerics. An average rogue with appropriate buffs on each side should make quick work of those traps.

Emili
02-16-2008, 11:31 AM
Not every trap is as high as that one trap in von5. That one is the exception, yet everyone is talking as if it were the norm. Let's not make it out like it is just like every other generic mob in the game. It is the red boss of traps for rogues. There are some bosses that are more easily beat down by melee while casters can only buff, and others that can be turned into an easy challenge with a well specced caster, while the melee just flail away. If a rogue is lacking, without a slew of buffs and some creativity it will be a challenge, no different than a stat damaging dex fighter finding he can't deal enough damage to that spell immune red boss. Sometimes you can't be everything, there are trade offs in character builds. Many have shown that an average save rogue, with the right buffs should have a good chance at these traps.

A comparison to PnP doesn't work for traps. A computer is not going to be able to satisfy all the possibilities a party of real people can come up with for dealing with these situations. So we get the trapbox in DDO, and rogues to deal with them. Has anyone considered inviting 2 rogues to the group (OMG! no!), just like everyone brings 2 clerics. An average rogue on each side should make quick work of those traps.


No it's not just those traps... it's all of them. Every trap in the game had a save DC raise on elite. Go run the habor quests on elite and test those and tell me if you find them level appropriate on elite.

krud
02-16-2008, 11:47 AM
No it's not just those traps... it's all of them. Every trap in the game had a save DC raise on elite. Go run the habor quests on elite and test those and tell me if you find them level appropriate on elite.


As I said before, an unbuffed, well specced, level appropiate rogue, or above average rogue with full buffs should be able to handle the hardest elite trap with some room to spare. An average rogue with a little AP or feat investment or partially buffed should expect some chance at failing a save on the hardest level appropriate elite trap. Trap DCs should be set accordingly. I haven't been in the harbor to test the new DCs. If someone would post them, rather than saying "my sorc can no longer run thru these traps" we could determine if they are really too high.

added - at low levels everyone with a decent dex should have reflex saves that aren't very different. It isn't until the higher level rogue base save, trap sense feats, uncanny dodge, and (usually) increased dex kick in do we see them outstretch others (like melee classes do when it comes to melee). The main point in this thread is how much more on top of that does a rogue need to be in order to guarantee success on the hardest elite traps?

ViVid7th
02-16-2008, 12:07 PM
Forgive me if I am wrong, but in PnP don't you need to have a Rogue to disable traps in the first place? Don't you need atleast one level of Rogue to gain the ability to use DD on traps and find traps that are higher than a certain DC, as well as to disable any magical traps?

I'll admit that not every PnP party needs a 'Rogue', but then again the party may not even run into any traps depending on the campaign setting.
Also, PnP traps were allot more dangerous. Many nasty spells or reactive effects (25 different traps on one door >.<) were common in dungeoneering.

DDO follows PnP somewhat closely, and a Rogue is a mainstay of the party. I don't agree with the DC saves being risen to what they are, but a Fighter or Wizard with one or two levels of rogue should not be as good at every trap as a pure. There needs to be some incentive to stay pure, and this is what many classes are lacking.

Hvymetal
02-16-2008, 12:10 PM
Forgive me if I am wrong, but in PnP don't you need to have a Rogue to disable traps in the first place? Don't you need atleast one level of Rogue to gain the ability to use DD on traps and find traps that are higher than a certain DC, as well as to disable any magical traps?

I'll admit that not every PnP party needs a 'Rogue', but then again the party may not even run into any traps depending on the campaign setting.

DDO follows PnP somewhat closely, and a Rogue is a mainstay of the party. I don't agree with the DC saves being risen to what they are, but a Fighter or Wizard with one or two levels of rogue should not be as good at every trap as a pure. There needs to be some incentive to stay pure, and this is what many classes are lacking.
Staying pure yes, but having to devote a great portion of your resources in feats and AP's (not to mention search) if you plan to run elite content is not the way to do it in my opinion, pigeon holing Rogues into being pure trap-monkies is bad for the class as I see it.

ViVid7th
02-16-2008, 12:15 PM
Staying pure yes, but having to devote a great portion of your resources in feats and AP's (not to mention search) if you plan to run elite content is not the way to do it in my opinion, pigeon holing Rogues into being pure trap-monkies is bad for the class as I see it.

Agreed, but currently there is little else for the class as a whole. Many of the social skills don't have the same impact as in PnP and many of the useful skills are missing from the skill list. Going for a 20 int on a rogue is a waste currently, because there isn't that many useful skills.

+skill items and tools lower the blow, Skill boosts help allot, but a rogue should be the class sought to deal with traps AS WELL as hold their own.

Angelus_dead
02-16-2008, 12:48 PM
Forgive me if I am wrong, but in PnP don't you need to have a Rogue to disable traps in the first place? Don't you need atleast one level of Rogue to gain the ability to use DD on traps and find traps that are higher than a certain DC, as well as to disable any magical traps?
Absolutely positively not.

Not only are there other classes who can find and disable traps (including some CLERICs for crying out loud), D&D traps also can generally be "disabled" by Summon Monster I, Unseen Servant, or (temporarily) Dispel Magic. Even a +1 Adamantine Returning Throwing Axe will work.

ViVid7th
02-16-2008, 01:18 PM
Absolutely positively not.

Not only are there other classes who can find and disable traps (including some CLERICs for crying out loud), D&D traps also can generally be "disabled" by Summon Monster I, Unseen Servant, or (temporarily) Dispel Magic. Even a +1 Adamantine Returning Throwing Axe will work.


Trapfinding

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.


Find Traps
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level

You gain intuitive insight into the workings of traps. You can use the Search skill to detect traps just as a rogue can. In addition, you gain an insight bonus equal to one-half your caster level (maximum +10) on Search checks made to find traps while the spell is in effect.

Note that find traps grants no ability to disable the traps that you may find.

I'm sorry, I guess that I read that wrong. I also guess that the rogue isn't the only class that gets Disable Device as a class skill. Using something to trigger the trap only works if it is a one shot trap, or if you have some way and the materials to block that trap.

Preparing with spells such as protection from energy works against some magical traps (like a fireball trap), but using Dispell Magic and Greater Dispell Magic normally has less than a 50% chance at success, due to it going off of the caster level of the creator. Even then, if you have more than one target to hit with Dispell, it won't work (Only lasts 1d4 rounds, only targeted). These tactics will rarely work against those found in a dragon's lair, or other strong casters with nothing but time on their hands (Elves, Liches, etc.).

Some traps can be dodged or disabled by other classes in a proper setting and with preparations, but these are either a resource drain, have limited uses, are only able to be applied in certain situations, or assume the trap won't reset itself once triggered. Not every trap is triggered by a pressure plate or trip wire. And unless you find it you won't be able to prepare for it. I still don't see an alternative to a rogue in the long run for PnP.

Aladon
02-16-2008, 02:03 PM
I do not think anyone here is really getting my points at all...

A trap in DnD is nothing more than an obstacle. It's the same as any mob. In PnP we do not require any one class for a party and their are more ways to deal with a trap then having someone scoot their bum over there and toy with a little box. I mean seriously I can build a barb/rogue too and get improved uncanny dodge as you've stataed (PnP DnD wise)... but what you're all failing to see is you're trying to make some arguement for justifying uncanny dodge and improved evasion to the point of where it's a near requirement in some quests. You seem to want a poper challenge for the pure rogue who's spec'd to deal with this yet eliminate most the others... with that said the axe should swing both ways. Lets give the melee and casters a proper challenge in here too. Maybe they should have never changed the switches and runes at the doors? Maybe they should have put them as a 30 str 30 int instead of the 25 str 20 wis they have now?

I suppose if you feel this need to stress such importance on elite for these obstacles I should turn arround and "right-tune" the dungeon. By adjusting these trap obstacles to what they are now. It's my viewpoint they should do the same with the rest of the obstacles to make the dugeon truely balanced...

As such they should adjust the trash mob AC, HP and Saves in elite Von 5 to match. Bring the mob up to where you need a full BaB 11 plus full (str/dex mod +10) plus feat and buff to even hit the Mob so an ac minimum 40 on all mob. Increase the mob's hp by 10 swings worth of so - +800hp. That attunes the dungeon to proper balance mob for real melee challenge now... mob and traps are equal now and is just the start. Let us look into mob saves to make heighten and spell focus's challenges next, Let us strive to making every class ability and every feat a near requirement. We're just getting started to make a propperly balanced dungeon for elite content. Let's take every single quest and guarentee that on elite every full blown class is required and is challenged in it on elite. Every party will require a melee, caster, cleric, rogue, ranger and bard(to fill in some gaps) and the standard on elite should be within +5 from max capability (plus buffs) of any toon in thier respectable area of expertise.

Thank You.


QFT

This is about as good an argument as we'll ever get for why Turbine's current trap tweak is messed up.

And this argument even grants that a maxed rogue can handle these traps at quest level, which is far from clear.

Likewise, it ignores non-disableable traps.

Finally, there is always a small minority for whom DO isn't fun unless it's incredibly painful. For the vast majority of us, it doesn't work like that. So even if you guys are theoretically right (which you aren't), this does nothing but hurt the game in the long run.

Best,

Aladon

Emili
02-16-2008, 02:15 PM
As I said before, an unbuffed, well specced, level appropiate rogue, or above average rogue with full buffs should be able to handle the hardest elite trap with some room to spare. An average rogue with a little AP or feat investment or partially buffed should expect some chance at failing a save on the hardest level appropriate elite trap. Trap DCs should be set accordingly. I haven't been in the harbor to test the new DCs. If someone would post them, rather than saying "my sorc can no longer run thru these traps" we could determine if they are really too high.

added - at low levels everyone with a decent dex should have reflex saves that aren't very different. It isn't until the higher level rogue base save, trap sense feats, uncanny dodge, and (usually) increased dex kick in do we see them outstretch others (like melee classes do when it comes to melee). The main point in this thread is how much more on top of that does a rogue need to be in order to guarantee success on the hardest elite traps?


from another thread...


The save on the goodblades elite blade trap is 30. The save on the Gwylan's fire trap on HARD is 36. The high level elite saves are apparently mid to high 40s.

Your guy doesn't cut it. Put in some pally, be a halfling with the ref save enhancements. Then we can talk. Maybe.


and while I've not verified goodblades personally, I also know that Garrison's has least one 34... so lets's step back a second, since you wish to create a challenge for the rogue via Reflex DC, maybe we should also challenge thier DD and Open locks too? Should we require these rogues to not only make the reflex but also buff to a 72 disable device to prove how important it is to have a pure rogue for elite high level quests? Maybe DD of 43 for Garisons to go along with the DC34 reflex for that trap too?

I am not attepting to be condescending here just rational about the situation as a whole... DnD does not require any class nor does it stress such weight on the stats so much so to be unreasonable across classes. DDO is on the verge of doing so. The rational that well you must take a pure rogue in any particular quest just because it's elite is just plain silly. If you read one of my earlier posts in this thread you'd find I waited for a pure 9th level rogue to take down the traps in the von 5 north hall. He died repeatedly... not sure if it was his build or was just a unlucky stream of 1's but after 15-20 minutes of my time - even after showing him the safe spot to disable the 1st box - you get that one then the rest come easy - the party was frustrated with him, I was beginning to get frustrated with him- He cost me time and the party's time as people had to leave. SOOOO, I took things into my own hands... the party litterally wanted me to ask him to leave or bott him. I buffed up and ran across the traps (twitching) and res'd just enough people on the other side to get the quest moving again. If you really intend rogues to have to go thru a screening process for groups so let it be. Just do not come crying when someone eventually coments - there are no traps in this quest so your rogue stays out of this one on elite because they'd be better served by some other class than a high reflex rogue since you've no obstacle to contend with in some other quest <- the shoe on the other foot.

I had to listen to a friend whine last night also. She was running STK elite... lvl's 5-7. Party completely buffed. Albeit a 6th level rogue could not run accross the fires to disable the traps... the barb in group did. Then he even managed to kill the mino, come back raged and managed to retieve the rogue's stone. The rogue res'd at the shrine... went back to take down the boxes and "KABOOM!" he blew it up on a roll of 1... thus the entire party was stuck, because they could not get the other four members thru safely... I told her if the barb had an adamantine or transmutting weapon to fight the boss and the rogue could help in way of wand whipping they might be able to finish it. The group though gave up and disbanded as some peolpe had real life to contend with. Utterly a complete waste of thier time.

Angelus_dead
02-16-2008, 02:19 PM
I still don't see an alternative to a rogue in the long run for PnP.
Yes, you don't see it. That's because you're ignorant about what the possibilities of PnP D&D are.

Emili
02-16-2008, 02:53 PM
Yes, you don't see it. That's because you're ignorant about what the possibilities of PnP D&D are.


A for instance is to spring the trap via a 10' pole or rope... then figure out an alternative way across via wits... ie. one person can carry a rope across clinging to an ledge on the west side of the hall (while making balance checks) above the pit of acid once accross tie it off and toss the other end back to the rest of the party, or use a nearby table or rusty grate across jamming the swinging spikes. What really surprises me is that people do not realize PnP goes beyond the scope of what DDO does... your party has skills but the largest skills in PnP are imagination and wit.

krud
02-16-2008, 03:10 PM
Let's see what is acheivable for 28pt lvl10 rogues (with good gear and no raid loot or tomes):

The gimp-me-to-the-max so I can only do traps build.
Max possible dex = 27 dex (28 human, 31 for elf/half/drow) -> 18 base (20 for elf/half/drow), 2 dex raises, 3 dex enhancement (4 human, 5 elf/half/drow), +4 item
14,12,10 (or 12,12,12) in three other base 8 stats.
lightning reflex feat
all AP invested in dex enhancements, trapfinding skills, way of the mechanic, trap sense, etc.
max ranks in spot,search, dd, ol

31 reflex save = +7 base, +8 dex, +2 lightning reflex feat, +3 trap sense feat (automatic), +3 Improved trap sense III, +4 uncanny dodge, +4 item.
35 human, +3 HV boost, +1 dex
34 halfling, +1 luck bonus, +2 dex
33 elf/drow, +2 dex

Average rogue build.
average dex = 24 dex (28 for elf/half/drow) -> 16 base (18 for elf/half/drow), 2 dex raises, 2 dex enhancement (4 elf/half/drow), +4 item.
14 in three other base 8 stats.
6 AP in dex enhancements (12 elf/half/drow)
16 out of 40 AP invested in trap related skills, trap senseII, skill boosts.
max ranks in spot,search, dd, ol

27 reflex save = +7 base, +7 dex, +3 trap sense feat (automatic), +2 Improved trap sense II, +4 uncanny dodge, +4 item.
30 human, +3 HV boost
30 halfling, +1 luck bonus, +2 dex
29 elf/drow, +2 dex

You gain 4 or 5 on your reflex save by gimping your rogue to the max. All that can be made up with GH and haste, while still leaving ~half of your AP for combat enhancements, and all available feats for something else. So, for an average, level 10 rogue a 29 unbuffed reflex save is the median for all races. With only 2 buffs its already a 34. Maybe you can get a few more points if pally is close by or you got a bard in group, but i won't count those.

From this I would venture that the hardest trap in a level 10 quest on elite should have at most a DC 40, with the run of the mill traps more than a few points lower. Hard and normal should drop by a few points each. How high do you think DCs should be given the above numbers?

wiglin
02-16-2008, 03:28 PM
This is my opinion, poeple need to stop looking at symbols by the person name and start looking at what the character does all together. Forcing someone to build a character a certain way to accomplish elite setttings is not in the spirit of dnd. 3.5 allows multiclassing is is part of the rules. Turbine needs to get rid of the symbols and replace them with jobs. (Healer, DPS, Tank. Trapsmith....etc) I do not care what your symbol is and making the game so that you have to create a gimped character to complete a quest on elite is not good business.

At this point I say no to inviting a rogue and if the quest is elite with a crazy trap I will run a different quest. I do not want some rogue that is able to disable elite traps and yet pike the rest of the quest taking up a spot. It was bad enough that they start putting in DC's that not every race can even get, but making the dc to save against a trap is horrible game mechanics. This will only hurt pure rogue builds, because now you will have poeple building these disable everything on elite and then get frustrated and quit the game after no one wants a gimped character in their party.

I like the idea of making traps very deadly, make it so you will take tons of damage and die if it is not disarmed, but allow those that want to be able to disarm the trap do so without gimping themselves for the other 90&#37; of the game. The save for trap DC's on elite needs to be obtainable without focusing every possible feat, stat, enhancement into reflex save.

I just returned to the game after being gone for 90+ days. I am glad I do not play rogues or I think I would just quit again...lol

honkuimushi
02-16-2008, 10:17 PM
I'm sorry, I guess that I read that wrong. I also guess that the rogue isn't the only class that gets Disable Device as a class skill. Using something to trigger the trap only works if it is a one shot trap, or if you have some way and the materials to block that trap.



A lot of this was changes with splat books. The Artificer from the ECS also gets Trapfinding and DD as do the Scout from Complete Adventurer and the Beguiler from the PHB II. I think some PrCs do as well.

A note on DCs-- I did The Enemy Within on elite a few days ago. It's a level 11 quest on normal. There are several double blade traps with the box in between. It may be possible to time them, but living in Japan, it would be impossible for me and difficult for anyone else, I think. I failed on a 41 and took about 160 damage. I don't remember the DC on the spinners in the floor, but I had a 30 Reflex save and I failed 2 saves in a about a second and took 150 and 190 damage from the blades. I believe you have to stand in those blades to get the box, but you might be able to get them from the top. We just tried to avoid them. I reccomend
checking out that quest and the Keeper's Sanctuary to check the DCs. Both have a lot of blade traps you have to pass through to disable in order to finish the quest. If rogues can't get these dow reliably or people can't run through them and survive, I can't see anyone doing them.

Angelus_dead
02-16-2008, 10:28 PM
I reccomend
checking out that quest and the Keeper's Sanctuary to check the DCs. Both have a lot of blade traps you have to pass through to disable in order to finish the quest. If rogues can't get these dow reliably or people can't run through them and survive, I can't see anyone doing them.
Oh, people can do them. But simply, reflex saves won't contribute to completing the quest. They'll assume the traps do 100% damage nearly every time they trigger on you, and simply add that into the healing budget.

Vormaerin
02-17-2008, 05:00 AM
yup. Full or nearly full rogues can still do these quests if they put some thought into their reflex saves, just like they do with DD and Search. You can get WAY more than enough reflex save if you go hog wild on the subject.

Its things like this that explain why rogues get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion. The Elite traps at the high end are not really the problem. Its more the values of the low to middle level quests, where rogues really haven't gotten to the Improved Evasion and several levels of Trap Sense, etc...

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 08:04 AM
and so would the 24 dex ranger because they are equal in the end given the feat bonuses the rogue has, but a 24 base dex rogue will happily make most of his saves and collect their stones

edit: Right now I think everyone agrees the dc's are out of whack for everyone and Turbine shoud lower them, the question is should they be lowered to where the rogue 5 point advantage doesn't mean anything or should they be just hig enough that a full rogue has little trouble but a mc rogue or someone with just high dex is going to have some issues. I am for the second option.

I like the idea of class feats being figured into the trap DCs. I dont see any reason that +5 wouldnt be figured into elite trap DCs. Should they also figure the rogue is carrying greater hero, recitation and every other applicable buff scroll in the game on his character? The game used to seem to allow for example my wiz12/rog3 to buff up with greater hero, stonskin, jump etc to get by/over/around a trap. This is always what D&D3.5 was to me, using your character make-up to find different ways around challenges. Not, "sorry, no imp evaision or ref save +50, no trap smith". I dont think we are to this point quite yet but it does certainly seem we are heading there. That aint a D&D game, thats simply taking out the creativity of character building.

IMO the saves for the traps should be figured around the base class, not the base class plus every possible buff in the game. I guess with that, I do feel a pure rogue should be able to tap dance through traps if he is moderately specced to do so and on his own power at that. They will be doing them w/o any buffs from my casters to be sure.;)

Really jus bumping in hopes that a dev might take not and give some insight as to the direction this whole thing is going to continue so I know if I can free up some slots in the end.:)

krud
02-18-2008, 10:10 AM
IMO the saves for the traps should be figured around the base class, not the base class plus every possible buff in the game. I guess with that, I do feel a pure rogue should be able to tap dance through traps if he is moderately specced to do so and on his own power at that. They will be doing them w/o any buffs from my casters to be sure.;)

How many times do elite parties go into a big fight without the relevant buffs? Not very often, and when they do it usually is trouble. The same thinking should be applied here. A pure rogue with average stats and moderate trap specs should expect at least some chance for failure, 20&#37; or less. With a little buffage factored in (such as GH) he should be ok, fully buffed and he's got room to spare. A splash-rogue will need full buffage to have a chance at "dancing thru the traps". I would add that this should be the standard for only the most difficult traps, not every trap.

The problem here is the ever widening gap between pure and splash as we get closer to lvl20. The same thing happens with splash melee/caster types vs pure melee, except the disparity between those two is often observed at the mid levels. People know what's ahead for the MC melee/caster already and can make build decisions accordingly. At level 20 and the gap between pure and MC rogue is gonna get even wider. Splash rogues are gonna need even more buffage to do well. Think about it, that one or two levels of rogue is not going to get you a much better reflex save than any other class out there. Unless you invested in dex, or reflex save boosting feats, you're going to be only slightly better than a pure wizard or fighter. If you want to balance around that, then the rogue feats and enhancements become pointless.

ORCRiST
02-18-2008, 10:20 AM
Yes, please change this Devs. The majority of my characters are rogues, including my main. Rogues are almost all I play, and know how to build them.

I'm am all for making the traps more deadly on hard and elite, as they should, but its no reason to mess with the save DC's.

Last night a guildy and I ran "The Scoundrel's Run" in 3-Barrel Cove. On normal, its a level 7 adventure - we did it on Elite, so 9th. I'm a 10.3 level rogue (w/ two levels of ranger) and my guildy was on his 11th level pure ranger. We both have reflex saves on the south side of 25.

There are two LONG tunnels covered with un-disarmable fire traps. These traps and corridors HAVE to be negotiated to finish the quest. On one of the two corridors (the first one you must cross), there are about 12+ flame traps in a row. Any roll on the dice less than 10 meant 80+ points of damage, multiple hits in less than a second, and thats WITH a fire resistance of 22. Needless to say, we died not even half way through the corridor and decided to do something else.

I would like to know if you people just arbitrarily make changes on a whim, without the slightest concern or study on how sweeping changes like this effect your player base?

I think its safe to say the Devs 'hate' the rogue class, as there's quite alot of evidence to support the claim:

First there was the Human Versatility nerf, coupled with the "Lets just CRANK UP the Search, Spot, and Disable DC's!" idea, followed by some small amount of sanity so now JUST Search and Spot will be cranked. Oh, BTW, your elemental weapons won't apply their sneak attack damage correctly, and now (surprise!) you get three new feats with the new mod! Oh, er, sorry... only ONE of those actually works atm. Hey, we fixed them again, heres a free feat respec token, oh... OUR BAD... the feats STILL dont work... :mad:

Anyone at Turbine with a clue?

Anyone?

Bueller?

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 10:52 AM
The problem here is the ever widening gap between pure and splash as we get closer to lvl20. The same thing happens with splash melee/caster types vs pure melee, except the disparity between those two is often observed at the mid levels. People know what's ahead for the MC melee/caster already and can make build decisions accordingly. At level 20 and the gap between pure and MC rogue is gonna get even wider. Splash rogues are gonna need even more buffage to do well. Think about it, that one or two levels of rogue is not going to get you a much better reflex save than any other class out there. Unless you invested in dex, or reflex save boosting feats, you're going to be only slightly better than a pure wizard or fighter. If you want to balance around that, then the rogue feats and enhancements become pointless.

Thats kinda what I was trying to get at. They create this enhancement system that is, at least, starting to numerically eliminate certain builds from achieveing goals. I guess that is my problem with the enhancement system when it comes down to it. I hear "enhancement" and think oh a nice modifier if im a little light in a particular area. Now they are getting to a point where they are big enough unrecoverable loses, that (for ex.) a caster rogue cant use his spells to to make up the ground becase they are already figured in there. Where are my MC enhancements that help me span that difference the enhancement system creates? I know my buffs arent going to cut it anymore. If it was a simple matter of overcoming +5 to trap save DCs and not having imp evaision that would be no problem. The enhancement system makes it so much more though, as outlined in various posts in this thread.

...and in the WDA: Rogue trap sense enhancement will provide a +2 instead of the current +1 it gives to trap saves. Way to drive your enhancement created gap further for trapsmithing....Everyone reroll pureclass, save yourself the time and aggrivation. Direction now clear. Elite trapsmith = pure rogue, all other variations WILL be numerically eliminate via our crappy enhancement system.:)

krud
02-18-2008, 02:30 PM
Thats kinda what I was trying to get at. They create this enhancement system that is, at least, starting to numerically eliminate certain builds from achieveing goals. I guess that is my problem with the enhancement system when it comes down to it. I hear "enhancement" and think oh a nice modifier if im a little light in a particular area. Now they are getting to a point where they are big enough unrecoverable loses, that (for ex.) a caster rogue cant use his spells to to make up the ground becase they are already figured in there. Where are my MC enhancements that help me span that difference the enhancement system creates? I know my buffs arent going to cut it anymore. If it was a simple matter of overcoming +5 to trap save DCs and not having imp evaision that would be no problem. The enhancement system makes it so much more though, as outlined in various posts in this thread.

...and in the WDA: Rogue trap sense enhancement will provide a +2 instead of the current +1 it gives to trap saves. Way to drive your enhancement created gap further for trapsmithing....Everyone reroll pureclass, save yourself the time and aggrivation. Direction now clear. Elite trapsmith = pure rogue, all other variations WILL be numerically eliminate via our crappy enhancement system.:)

It's not the enhancement system that is driving it, it's the automatic feats and base save scores that provide much of the difference. Trap sense enhancements are +4 for 10AP, which is a big investment, too much to expect for the average rogue. Most rogue builds, however, should be able to afford a modest investment of 3AP to get +2. The dex enhacements will only add another +1 to the reflex save (+2 if you have a dex race). Now look at the automatic feats. The trap sense feat adds +1 at levels 3,6,9,12 and 15. Improved uncanny dodge adds another +4 at lvl4 and +6 at lvl8. Also, a rogue will usually (not always) add to dex with their attribute raises, another +2. On top of all that, the base save for a level 10 rogue is +7 vs +3 for everyone else, except a ranger and a bard. It is inevitable that a pure rogue will generate higher save bonuses in traps, even without enhancements. I'm not up on the latest PnP stuff, but do pure rogues also get these same feats in PnP?
edit - i did not see the WDA trap sense post. If true, i don't think it is the way to go. All the splash rogues will demand a full respec.

Here are more mumbers to consider:
As shown previously, an average 28pt level 10 pure rogue gets a +29 reflex save when using UD. Minimally self buffed with a haste pot, heroism pot, and a parrying item it's +33. In a level 10 elite raid group you should be able to find a mage to cast GH and a cleric with recitation for another +4, total +37. A well-specced, fully buffed rogue can hit +40. Based on these values the trap DC should be anywhere from 35-40, depending on how hard or easy you think traps need to be. However, even if you adjust accordingly, the difference between a pure rogue and a splash MC is only going to get worse, and by level 20 we will end up with the same discussion all over again.
edit - i just got Imp uncanny dodge on my MCrogue, and though it says +4 reflex save in the description, the actual bonus is +6 (same as AC bonus). this adds another 2 to all the above totals.
As the splash melee/casters found out around level 7 or 8, the one level of fighter isn't going to cut it on elite unless they started investing feats and enhancements in melee. Same is happening here with the splash rogues. Full rogues with reasonable stats and buffed up, have a legitimate complaint if they still consistently fail trap saves.

llevenbaxx
02-18-2008, 04:04 PM
It's not the enhancement system that is driving it, it's the automatic feats and base save scores that provide much of the difference. Trap sense enhancements are +4 for 10AP, which is a big investment, too much to expect for the average rogue. Most rogue builds, however, should be able to afford a modest investment of 3AP to get +2. The dex enhacements will only add another +1 to the reflex save (+2 if you have a dex race). Now look at the automatic feats. The trap sense feat adds +1 at levels 3,6,9,12 and 15. Improved uncanny dodge adds another +4 at lvl4 and +6 at lvl8. Also, a rogue will usually (not always) add to dex with their attribute raises, another +2. On top of all that, the base save for a level 10 rogue is +7 vs +3 for everyone else, except a ranger and a bard. It is inevitable that a pure rogue will generate higher save bonuses in traps, even without enhancements. I'm not up on the latest PnP stuff, but do pure rogues also get these same feats in PnP?
edit - i did not see the WDA trap sense post. If true, i don't think it is the way to go. All the splash rogues will demand a full respec.

Here are more mumbers to consider:
As shown previously, an average 28pt level 10 pure rogue gets a +29 reflex save when using UD. Minimally self buffed with a haste pot, heroism pot, and a parrying item it's +33. In a level 10 elite raid group you should be able to find a mage to cast GH and a cleric with recitation for another +4, total +37. A well-specced, fully buffed rogue can hit +40. Based on these values the trap DC should be anywhere from 35-40, depending on how hard or easy you think traps need to be. However, even if you adjust accordingly, the difference between a pure rogue and a splash MC is only going to get worse, and by level 20 we will end up with the same discussion all over again.
edit - i just got Imp uncanny dodge on my MCrogue, and though it says +4 reflex save in the description, the actual bonus is +6 (same as AC bonus). this adds another 2 to all the above totals.
As the splash melee/casters found out around level 7 or 8, the one level of fighter isn't going to cut it on elite unless they started investing feats and enhancements in melee. Same is happening here with the splash rogues. Full rogues with reasonable stats and buffed up, have a legitimate complaint if they still consistently fail trap saves.

All the buffs I too can cast myself, from spell list or UMD. I will be getting UD next level and only the AC bonus improves in Imp UD, so I will have all of that. I will have four levels of rogue so I will get at least +3 of that +7 base save. My int is 34 which is comparable to most rogues. That leaves trapsense which is why I believe they picked that particular class feat to double in enhancements "system". Thats it, trapsense. We'll take that +5 and jack it up to say.. hmmm +13 sounds good.:) On a D20, thats big business, any way you want to slice it.. 5 not so much a death sentence.:)

krud
02-18-2008, 04:58 PM
All the buffs I too can cast myself, from spell list or UMD. I will be getting UD next level and only the AC bonus improves in Imp UD, so I will have all of that. I will have four levels of rogue so I will get at least +3 of that +7 base save. My int is 34 which is comparable to most rogues. That leaves trapsense which is why I believe they picked that particular class feat to double in enhancements "system". Thats it, trapsense. We'll take that +5 and jack it up to say.. hmmm +13 sounds good.:) On a D20, thats big business, any way you want to slice it.. 5 not so much a death sentence.:)

You are taking the reasonable approach to the problem of an MC rogue, same as I did with mine. In order to do-it-all it WILL require some kind of feat or other investment (more rogue levels) to function in high level elite content. Some splash rogues do not see it that way. They want it all, yet even without enhancements in game it will not be possible for them by level 20 (unless they bring DCs ridiculously way down).

I just did the dragon elite with my MCrogue (when he was 8ftr/7rog) and the big electric/spinning trap was bugged (in a favorable way), so I didn't get to see how bad it is. The one shot traps were not too much of a problem (except the one I didn't prepare for), and my reflex save is slightly less than average compared to a lvl10 rogue. If the main trap was working properly i'd probably have been toast if the elite DC is really 45 as many say it is. I showed approximately twenty saving throws in my combat log (granted I bacame less carefull when i saw it was bugged). Immediately went out and got Improved trap sense II and respeced a skill focus into lightning reflexes. Fully buffed, with a pally close by, I may be able to survive now, but just barely. I can't complain since I focused on combat traits first, traps second. I don't think they should lower DCs to accomodate my build. From the numbers I crunched for a pure rogue I think the DC for this trap on elite is not way out of wack. Perhaps a few points too high, considering you make up to a dozen or more saves while working on it, 40e-35h-30n is not unreasonable if they do decide to lower it.

btw - Imp uncanny dodge does give a +6 reflex bonus in my stat window whenever i activate it (same as the AC bonus). Either the description is off, or the sta window is reporting it wrong.

Raithe
02-18-2008, 07:23 PM
If the main trap was working properly i'd probably have been toast if the elite DC is really 45 as many say it is.

The elite traps in VoN 5 are 50+ DC trap saves. Hope all those arguments you made over the last several pages still hold water...

krud
02-19-2008, 09:10 AM
The elite traps in VoN 5 are 50+ DC trap saves. Hope all those arguments you made over the last several pages still hold water...

My arguments still stand; DCs should be set so that an average, level apropriate rogue, with a decent array of buffs should be able to get thru and disable traps with little chance for failure. I always said the DC for the main trap in von5 should be ~40. Considering you roll a number of saves in that trap, that particular DC should not be set too high. One shot traps can be higher, but if you must make multiple saves in a trap, the DC should be lower to reflect the multiple chances at failure. If the DC is indeed 50+ for the spinning blade/electric trap, then that is too high. Even with improved evasion a rogue will have trouble. It then becomes a matter of running the cleric thru and rezing him on the other side, rinse and repeat for everyone else.

I just checked some harbor DCs:
waterworks pt1 acid and fire trap at beginning 28 - just need to wait them out if you got no rogue.
sewer rescue 29 - these will require very good timing to get thru unharmed. no rogue sux in here
smuggler's warehouse ~28 - can always run down the middle of the blade trap or do the fire one in reverse and time it for each party member, but every party won't know this.

At least you don't need to run thru most low level traps in order to disable them, but it does look more and more like a decent rogue is becoming almost as necessary as a decent cleric. At least it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to support a rogue ;)

Raithe
02-19-2008, 09:19 AM
At least you don't need to run thru most low level traps in order to disable them, but it does look more and more like a decent rogue is becoming almost as necessary as a decent cleric. At least it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to support a rogue ;)

That's not how it's going to work. Trust me. I've been through the search and spot DC debacle.

Only about 5% of rogues that people don't know as a static member of their group will be fully geared and know what buffs they will need. The rest will fail, miserably. Groups will stop PUGging for rogues, and because of the generally poor impression created, rogues will be built less overall.

Plus, it's really easy to metagame or circumvent most of these elite traps. People will just remove their items, die in the trap, and get rezzed on the other side. It costs about 30 spell points or a scroll.

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 09:22 AM
btw - Imp uncanny dodge does give a +6 reflex bonus in my stat window whenever i activate it (same as the AC bonus). Either the description is off, or the sta window is reporting it wrong.

Minor but incorrect. Read carefully as the AC description is right before the Ref description or check the compendium if you cant access from work. +4 to Ref & +6 to AC IUD.

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 09:25 AM
That's not how it's going to work. Trust me. I've been through the search and spot DC debacle.

Only about 5% of rogues that people don't know as a static member of their group will be fully geared and know what buffs they will need. The rest will fail, miserably. Groups will stop PUGging for rogues, and because of the generally poor impression created, rogues will be built less overall.

Plus, it's really easy to metagame or circumvent most of these elite traps. People will just remove their items, die in the trap, and get rezzed on the other side. It costs about 30 spell points or a scroll.

Thats exactly what I see happening too. How could they have missed all the posts stating Rogue /= Trapsmith!

krud
02-19-2008, 10:04 AM
Minor but incorrect. Read carefully as the AC description is right before the Ref description or check the compendium if you cant access from work. +4 to Ref & +6 to AC IUD.

Yes, I read the description, I know what it says, but that's not what it does. Try it out. Ask any rogue with IUD to look at their reflex save window on their main stat page and then hit IUD to see what happens. The number in the diplay goes up by +6. when i got time i'll check it out by standing in a trap.


Plus, it's really easy to metagame or circumvent most of these elite traps. People will just remove their items, die in the trap, and get rezzed on the other side. It costs about 30 spell points or a scroll.
and how is that any different than the way it used to be? - run thru trap and cast heal scroll on everyone. It just costs more plat now.


Only about 5&#37; of rogues that people don't know as a static member of their group will be fully geared and know what buffs they will need. The rest will fail, miserably. Groups will stop PUGging for rogues, and because of the generally poor impression created, rogues will be built less overall
Most of these same arguements about rogues can be applied to clerics as well. Why do people keep inviting PUG clerics, even when they don't know them or how well they will perform? Because clerics are viewed as being so much more necessary than a rogue that people suck it up and are willing to take a chance on a PUG.


How could they have missed all the posts stating Rogue /= Trapsmith!
agreed, but it also takes very little to make a trapsmith out of a rogue. So little in fact that every rogue should be able trapsmith, just like every cleric, even battle clerics, should be able to heal

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 10:17 AM
Yes, I read the description, I know what it says, but that's not what it does. Try it out. Ask any rogue with IUD to look at their reflex save window on their main stat page and then hit IUD to see what happens. The number in the diplay goes up by +6. when i got time i'll check it out by standing in a trap.




Ah, must be implimented wrong. Will have to bug report it.:)

krud
02-19-2008, 10:44 AM
Ah, must be implimented wrong. Will have to bug report it.:)
or the description is off :)

llevenbaxx
02-19-2008, 10:55 AM
or the description is off :)

We'll know soon enough.:D

krud
02-20-2008, 09:24 AM
more flogging the dead horse:

For the MC rogue - the way I look at it a MCrogue should be able to function as well as the level of rogue they have plus whatever else their other class brings to the table. i.e. my 8ftr/8rog should be able to function as well as an 8 level rogue plus whatever an 8 fighter brings to the table (lots of feats and HV).

Reflex saves:
class (dex).......base.....Dex....TSfeat..total
16rogue (30).....10........10........5.......25
8ftr/8rog (26).....8.........8.........2.......18

I am 7 points behind what an average rogue starts with. If I take lightning reflexes (+2) and resilience (+5?) feats. I should be at the same starting point as that 16th level rogue. Since I don't have resilience yet I have to rely on HV for the extra +5 (not the best solution, but it helps). From there it should only be a matter of enhancement choices, buffs, and loot that separate me from that 16rogue. However, as a 16rogue I would be upset if I were required to take either lightning reflexes or resilience in order to have a chance.

llevenbaxx
02-20-2008, 09:45 AM
more flogging the dead horse:

For the MC rogue - the way I look at it a MCrogue should be able to function as well as the level of rogue they have plus whatever else their other class brings to the table. i.e. my 8ftr/8rog should be able to function as well as an 8 level rogue plus whatever an 8 fighter brings to the table (lots of feats and HV).

Reflex saves:
class (dex).......base.....Dex....TSfeat..total
16rogue (30).....10........10........5.......25
8ftr/8rog (26).....8.........8.........2.......18

I am 7 points behind what an average rogue starts with. If I take lightning reflexes (+2) and resilience (+5?) feats. I should be at the same starting point as that 16th level rogue. Since I don't have resilience yet I have to rely on HV for the extra +5 (not the best solution, but it helps). From there it should only be a matter of enhancement choices, buffs, and loot that separate me from that 16rogue. However, as a 16rogue I would be upset if I were required to take either lightning reflexes or resilience in order to have a chance.

LOL you say from there its just a matter of enhancement differences like they are neglegible. They are the largest factor. Bottom line in all of this as a PnP player is that Turbine is making yet more viable builds from PnP and shoving them out the door with their enhancement system. MC is promoted in D&D and frowned upon in MMO... sry DDO. I can see the logic behind it, in D&D being able to fill multiple roles is a good thing(as there may not be enough ppl), in an MMO its not necessary as there should be plenty of ppl for any "role". Dont like it but do understand it. At least I have a freed up character slot to play with.

I just cant stand to see anymore of the well its there job, they should be better dute dee doo excuse. They were already better, this move was just to clear a portion of the field. Score one for the uncreative number crunching MMO crowd. Saying a level 16 character that is 8/8 or w/e should only be as good as either half makes absolutely zero sense from D&D 3.5 standpoint, thats just not the way the game is set up sry. That is starting to hold alot of water in DDO though.

Vormaerin
02-20-2008, 09:51 AM
You don't need them on normal and probably don't need them on hard unless you have skimped on Dex in favor of Strength. You might need them on elite, for a small number of traps. The main advantage of Resilience being that it doesn't expire like IUD and Save boosts can. There are a couple cases where they might not last long enough for comfort, IIRC. But in most cases, you don't need the ref save at all and in most of the remaining cases, your IUD and HV/R Saves will last longer than you should be in the trap.

krud
02-20-2008, 10:25 AM
LOL you say from there its just a matter of enhancement differences like they are neglegible. They are the largest factor. Bottom line in all of this as a PnP player is that Turbine is making yet more viable builds from PnP and shoving them out the door with their enhancement system. MC is promoted in D&D and frowned upon in MMO... sry DDO. I can see the logic behind it, in D&D being able to fill multiple roles is a good thing(as there may not be enough ppl), in an MMO its not necessary as there should be plenty of ppl for any "role". Dont like it but do understand it. At least I have a freed up character slot to play with.

I just cant stand to see anymore of the well its there job, they should be better dute dee doo excuse. They were already better, this move was just to clear a portion of the field. Score one for the uncreative number crunching MMO crowd. Saying a level 16 character that is 8/8 or w/e should only be as good as either half makes absolutely zero sense from D&D 3.5 standpoint, thats just not the way the game is set up sry. That is starting to hold alot of water in DDO though.

I didn't say an 8/8 should be only good as half. I said half plus whatever the other class brings to the table. In this case it's fighter which is only a slight increase in base reflex save, few skill points, but lots of extra feats. A pally will add his aura to reflex saves, but few skill points. A ranger will add good base reflex saves, and lots of skill points. A bard will bring those as well, plus great buffs. A wizard brings his buffs, and skill points, but only a slight increase reflex saves. However, some expect MORE than what the other class has to offer just because they multi-classed. If you cross class in something that doesn't add anything to a rogue, then you are at a disadvantage.

Currently, the trap enhancements do not add all that much for a pure rogue, unless you are prepared to spend a lot of AP on only trap skills. I agree, that the future enhancement changes will make things worse, and I do not think it should be implemented. Up till now the enhancements actually made it easier to MC.

With regard to rogue functions the standard for dungeons should be what the average level appropriate rogue can handle. There has to be some kind of standard for traps, after all they are part of the game and rogue is the only class that can deal with them. What do you think these standards should be?

krud
02-20-2008, 10:33 AM
You don't need them on normal and probably don't need them on hard unless you have skimped on Dex in favor of Strength. You might need them on elite, for a small number of traps. The main advantage of Resilience being that it doesn't expire like IUD and Save boosts can. There are a couple cases where they might not last long enough for comfort, IIRC. But in most cases, you don't need the ref save at all and in most of the remaining cases, your IUD and HV/R Saves will last longer than you should be in the trap.

agreed, I can function on normal and hard as is (what I expected), but for those few elite traps, I will leave it up to the class that can handle it best. However, to be an elite rogue that can handle most every trap in game will require (and should require) something more, in this case, extra feats.

Redcoil
02-20-2008, 10:48 AM
I went and played with a toon that has Evasion, and a rather high reflex - 34. Im sure theres higher, just saying thats what I had to play with.
For first few, lowered it a bit to assure accuracy of rolls.

A Few DC's to ponder.
Lv 3-4 Quests:
Elite Goodblades, Healing Elixir. Blades: DC 26 to save.

Elite Water Works 1, Acid Trap: Save on a 30.

Elite Water Works 1, Fire Trap: Same as Above.

Elite Sewer Rescue, Spikes: 31 Saves 29 failes. Never rolled a 30.
- Same for the blades next to the spikes.

On Elite: lv 12
Elite Von 5: Both electrical traps and blades in north hallway: a 19 + 34 failed.

Take it for what you will :-)

krud
02-20-2008, 11:18 AM
started a thread for compiling trap DCs

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1574669#post1574669

and here in case you don't visit the rogue forums
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1574746#post1574746

llevenbaxx
02-20-2008, 11:23 AM
I didn't say an 8/8 should be only good as half. I said half [B][COLOR="Yellow"]

With regard to rogue functions the standard for dungeons should be what the average level appropriate rogue can handle. There has to be some kind of standard for traps, after all they are part of the game and rogue is the only class that can deal with them. What do you think these standards should be?

For elite I think they should figure it around the rogues class feats, near max attainable attributes, with max gear(ie. for the level quest 14/15 level quest = +15 skill item and +4/5 save item) with MAYBE a 1st teir enhancement line investment. I also feel that a rogue in a level appropriate quest should need no buffs to handle his own trade, buffs(or investing heavily in trap enhancements) should only be needed when attempting quests above his level or lacking the best equipment. This would allow a pure rogue with the best items and attributes to invest their "enhancements"(use the term very loosly these days) almost totally in lines that have nothing to do with traps. It should be a freebee for them almost, its what they do, you cant structure them the same way you do the other classes. "Master of none" (thats sorta anti min/max right?) comes to mind.

This would also allow various MC rogues to use the enhancements available in conjunction with the rest of their class make-up to cover (wizard buffs/fighter have a little more hp/barbs their own trap sense etc) some of the difference that the rogue class gives rogues for free. This would also mean that would it would be extremely risking taking heavily MCed rogue into an above level quest. I deal with numbers all day long, I kinda a PnP min/maxer, its not that hard to figure out how to ring every last point out of a build. Turbines enhancements system has simply started to dwarf the d20, too many big numbers and they are still making them bigger. This latest move seems extremely standard MMO operating procedure where pure class are all you see. I know it will never be quite that bad in a D&D "based" game but it could be a hell of alot better game also.

I realize MMOs are not typically very flexible and that D&D is kinda made to be flexible, would love this game to continue to be a hybrid.

krud
02-20-2008, 11:55 AM
For elite I think they should figure it around the rogues class feats, near max attainable attributes, with max gear(ie. for the level quest 14/15 level quest = +15 skill item and +4/5 save item) with MAYBE a 1st teir enhancement line investment. I also feel that a rogue in a level appropriate quest should need no buffs to handle his own trade, buffs(or investing heavily in trap enhancements) should only be needed when attempting quests above his level or lacking the best equipment. This would allow a pure rogue with the best items and attributes to invest their "enhancements"(use the term very loosly these days) almost totally in lines that have nothing to do with traps. It should be a freebee for them almost, its what they do, you cant structure them the same way you do the other classes. "Master of none" (thats sorta anti min/max right?) comes to mind.

Not very far from what I have suggested +/- a few points. I started compiling DCs to see how far off from that standard they really are.

llevenbaxx
02-20-2008, 12:00 PM
Not very far from what I have suggested +/- a few points. I started compiling DCs to see how far off from that standard they really are.

I would like to see that also. Im sure some will say, "Well why even bother having high level enhancements?". The simple ability to have things like str based full rogues that would need that last teir of trapsense because he can only muster a 24 dex. Enhancements seem like they are currently being used to head hunt builds instead of encouraging creative new builds imho.

Whats the point of having options if they have no shot at working in the endgame?

Ironwind
02-20-2008, 02:53 PM
Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Reference this post
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=541350&postcount=1
for specific numbers required to spot, search & disable all traps in the game.

Also with my Improved Evasion and mediocre Reflex save, I have yet to be killed trying to disable a trap.
So, honestly, I'd like to say I feel bad for those of you that are upset about the higher DCs, but I don't.
If your old method of doing traps isn't working, maybe you should slow down and think through a new approach.

Now, as a side bonus of not wasting all my build points in Way of the Mechanic and maximum dexterity scores and other goofy shizit, I can also do very well with dps. I'm not always first on the kill count, but I'm always in the top 3, and I've out damaged many a barbarian in my day. I also have 222 hit points; a really nice UMD and 11 capped skills. I can rez, heal, dps and take out traps. I also make a mean cappuccino! :D

You really do not need to waste all your precious build points into trapsmithing to be a great rogue. Play smarter.



Another excellent reference for trap DCs
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks


My skill breakdown.
Spot - 38
19 ranks
+15 item
+2 elf racial
+2 enhancments

Search - 46
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+2 elf racial
+4 enhancements

Disable Device - 47
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+7 tools

Open Lock - 51
19 ranks
+15 item
+10 dex bonus
+7 tools

Aladon
02-20-2008, 03:33 PM
Once again, the players who like DDO hard, repetitive and unpleasant drown out the other voices.

I urge Turbine to look beyond the weight of posts to the core issue of what's fun for the most people. Traps aren't fun to begin with, that's why zerging is so popular.

Making traps the hardest part of the game is not good for the game. Making it so not only can't people zerg, now even many rogues can't survive in (and therefore disable) many traps is bad for the game. Watching rogues die is bad for the game. Waiting to find a rogue to join your party is bad for the game. Forcing rogues to spend resources on reflex saves at the cost of other skills more consistently useful is bad for the game. Making the best trap strategy that players die, run thru the trap then rez to avoid insufficient reflex saves is bad for the game.

The solution is crystal clear (notwithstanding all the bad advice offered by the hard core players who frequent this board):

Ramp up trap damage, as you've done.

Leave spot, search and disable DC's alone, as you've done.

Increase save DC's on traps that don't have to be triggered, as you've done.

However:

Traps that need to be run thru to be disabled should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.

Traps that cannot be disabled yet must be triggered to accomplish mandatory quest goals should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.

Regards,

Aladon

Ironwind
02-20-2008, 03:46 PM
Once again, the players who like DDO hard, repetitive and unpleasant drown out the other voices.

This is pure hyperbole.
I am not a hardcore player and in my previous post I note that my rogue's skills and saves are average.
I do not list myself as having any elite raid gear, because I don't have any.


Traps that need to be run thru to be disabled should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.

Traps that cannot be disabled yet must be triggered to accomplish mandatory quest goals should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.


This is exactly what Turbine has done. If you read my previous post you will see that all of the traps (save cabal elite) can be done by an average rogue played intelligently.

Aladon
02-20-2008, 04:08 PM
This is pure hyperbole.
I am not a hardcore player and in my previous post I note that my rogue's skills and saves are average.
I do not list myself as having any elite raid gear, because I don't have any.



This is exactly what Turbine has done. If you read my previous post you will see that all of the traps (save cabal elite) can be done by an average rogue played intelligently.

<shrugs>

Sure, the first part is hyperbole. I wanted to get the attention off the weight of words and onto the substance of the problem. That is what hyperbole is designed to do.

Interestingly, it seems you actually agree with my points. What you disagree about is whether current conditions conform to my suggestions. Yet you provide no hard data, not a single firm point of reference. I cannot then counter you but nor will I simply believe you. I think we can agree that simply because one level capped rogue hasn't found an overly hard trap DC doesn't mean that there aren't any.

Elsewhere (as mentioned above), there is a growing list of DC's across the game. Having acquired good data, we can then do the math. I'm sure we'll find some quests are ok and some aren't so ok. That's pretty clear from the anecdotal evidence. Which is which, we'll find out over time and with a not inconsiderable effort. What I am hoping is that Turbine does the work for us. They have all the DC's already and they can do the math (or even look at the statistics for the community of rogues and rogue hybrids). All they need to do is say, "Yeah, you're right. We'll fix it". Then the rest of us can go back to playing the game instead of being shadow designers.

Best,

Aladon

Raithe
02-20-2008, 04:15 PM
For elite I think they should figure it around the rogues class feats, near max attainable attributes, with max gear(ie. for the level quest 14/15 level quest = +15 skill item and +4/5 save item) with MAYBE a 1st teir enhancement line investment.

I disagree, completely. Gear and buffs should never enter the equation. Gear is treasure, which should be reward-like (in that it helps characters close the gap with deficiencies in their build), rather than a release from punishment. Gear can break, gear can never show up in your particular loot table, gear can have effects that should be able to be suppressed by anti-magic fields. Having a supreme master of a skill fail at a difficulty check because he doesn't have +20 gloves of uberness lacks realism and destroys the trade-off qualities of character building.

If they want elite to be about the maximum possible DCs reachable by standard classes (ignoring race), that would be fine. Personally, since I find absolutely no fun at all in number stacking difficulties, I would either get rid of separate difficulties for dungeons, or make them more about player skill, not treasure accumulation.

krud
02-20-2008, 04:37 PM
I disagree, completely. Gear and buffs should never enter the equation. Gear is treasure, which should be reward-like (in that it helps characters close the gap with deficiencies in their build), rather than a release from punishment. Gear can break, gear can never show up in your particular loot table, gear can have effects that should be able to be suppressed by anti-magic fields. Having a supreme master of a skill fail at a difficulty check because he doesn't have +20 gloves of uberness lacks realism and destroys the trade-off qualities of character building.

If they want elite to be about the maximum possible DCs reachable by standard classes (ignoring race), that would be fine. Personally, since I find absolutely no fun at all in number stacking difficulties, I would either get rid of separate difficulties for dungeons, or make them more about player skill, not treasure accumulation.

you can't ignore gear, especially considering it currently supplies up to +15 skill points, almost double what you get from max ranks. It's reasonable to think a level 10 rogue should have at least +7-9 spot/search/DD items and design quests accordingly. With better gear you get a better chance. Buffs, self or otherwise, make up for differences in gear, or build deficiencies.

Again, how many times do you go into a big fight on elite completely unbuffed? How many times do you do that with average characters who have no decent gear? It's going to be difficult.

Raithe
02-20-2008, 04:45 PM
you can't ignore gear, especially considering it currently supplies up to +15 skill points,...

One of the chief problems with a Monty Haul loot system...

This could be repaired by putting a cap on magic levels that can be stored on a character at the same time. If a rogue wants to bring his +5 resistance item, he may have to leave his armor behind, or his +15 search goggles.

Upping DCs makes the game unattractive to all but the most loot-hungry - as has been said a thousand times over the last year.

wizzy_catt
02-20-2008, 05:10 PM
just wanted to also note the 11 rogue lvls also gives improved evasion cutting the damage in half. rabbit gloves are also another option for +1 more. I personally love the fact that pure rogues/pure dedicated trapsmiths, will make quests easier..
does rabbit glove stack with head of good fortune? i thought it only takes highest value one +2 to luck?

Naash
02-20-2008, 05:17 PM
Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Reference this post
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=541350&postcount=1
for specific numbers required to spot, search & disable all traps in the game.

Also with my Improved Evasion and mediocre Reflex save, I have yet to be killed trying to disable a trap.
So, honestly, I'd like to say I feel bad for those of you that are upset about the higher DCs, but I don't.
If your old method of doing traps isn't working, maybe you should slow down and think through a new approach.

Now, as a side bonus of not wasting all my build points in Way of the Mechanic and maximum dexterity scores and other goofy shizit, I can also do very well with dps. I'm not always first on the kill count, but I'm always in the top 3, and I've out damaged many a barbarian in my day. I also have 222 hit points; a really nice UMD and 11 capped skills. I can rez, heal, dps and take out traps. I also make a mean cappuccino! :D

You really do not need to waste all your precious build points into trapsmithing to be a great rogue. Play smarter.



Another excellent reference for trap DCs
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks


My skill breakdown.
Spot - 38
19 ranks
+15 item
+2 elf racial
+2 enhancments

Search - 46
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+2 elf racial
+4 enhancements

Disable Device - 47
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+7 tools

Open Lock - 51
19 ranks
+15 item
+10 dex bonus
+7 tools


Well said sir,couldnt agree more!

Vormaerin
02-20-2008, 05:18 PM
I've never played a CRPG type game that wasn't monty haul, unfortunately. If you don't factor in loot, especially at this point, the game is a joke. Personally, +skills items are something I loathe in my p&p games (regardless of system) and always have. But they are integral to DDO now. I don't think its productive to aim for a massive loot nerf at this point.

Normal mode: Should be doable by just about any pure rogue that isn't completely bizarre. Or any MC Rogue that pays attention to trapsmithing (without needing serious sacrifices).

Hard: Pure rogue should have to pay attention... meaning level appropriate gear (even the p&p game assumes this, though the numbers on that are much much less), good stats, and 'something else': buffs, feats, or enhancements. MCRogues pretty much the same, except may need more of the "something else" if there isn't direct synergy between their classes.

Elite: Everyone should have to put some effort into it. Should need buffs and some feats/enhancements. Dex based rogues with resilience, 10pts of the upcoming trapsense or other enhancements, and top of the line non raid gear can get into the mid fifties. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me for elite. Str rogues and MC Rogues would need more feats or enhancements.

I don't think "everything except cabal elite" should be attainable by splash builds with no innate synergy unless they make serious efforts in terms of APs and feats or raid gear or whatever. Again, ref saves are only relevant on a small number of traps. So the fact that the splash build can handle 90% of the rogue content without that high cost seems pretty good to me. Elite does need to be more than the default can handle, imho.

Btw, IRONWIND

No one is discussing skills. Skills are easy. Any blind monkey can have the skills to do all the traps in the game except cabal elite. Its reflex saves that are the issue in this thread. Ref saves to do Stk fire room, pit lightning, scoundrel's run fire passage and other 'must make ref saves to succeed' traps. You might want to take your low 30s ref saves into those traps on elite now and see how easy it is.

Raithe
02-20-2008, 05:37 PM
Normal mode: Should be doable by just about any pure rogue that isn't completely bizarre. Or any MC Rogue that pays attention to trapsmithing (without needing serious sacrifices).

Hard: Pure rogue should have to pay attention... meaning level appropriate gear (even the p&p game assumes this, though the numbers on that are much much less), good stats, and 'something else': buffs, feats, or enhancements. MCRogues pretty much the same, except may need more of the "something else" if there isn't direct synergy between their classes.

Elite: Everyone should have to put some effort into it. Should need buffs and some feats/enhancements. Dex based rogues with resilience, 10pts of the upcoming trapsense or other enhancements, and top of the line non raid gear can get into the mid fifties. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me for elite. Str rogues and MC Rogues would need more feats or enhancements.


This is elitism without justification. Why can't a new player join a highly experienced group and fill a role while running with them? Why is a player who knows the game very well removed from consideration for a role because he hasn't farmed the right item?

There are legitimate reasons to put DCs at a certain level - the most notable one being realism. Elitism is not one of those legitimate reasons.

Vormaerin
02-20-2008, 05:48 PM
Uhh, nothing I've mentioned is hard to get. I'm not talking raid loot or whatever. Just level appropriate gear, ie stuff within a few MLs of you. I suppose a barbarian would be effective at lvl 10 in plain +1 stuff?

If you don't factor in level appropriate gear (which is a core concept of 3.5e p&p, btw), then everything is a joke. If all the fighters have +3 true chaos cheesegraters of ultimate doom and you balance the monsters as if they were fighting with starter swords, its not going to be any challenge. The same is true of basic rogue items, mainly +skills stuff, tools, and (for elite) +ref save items.

A LotRO 'your loot is almost completely irrelevant' style or a D&D 4e "only three pieces of loot actually matter" style might be better in some sense (a lot of players play for loot, so don't like that kind of game play), but the ship has sailed there. You can't get it back into the harbor until DDO2, which will be 4e and use radically different rules anyway.

Emili
02-20-2008, 05:48 PM
does rabbit glove stack with head of good fortune? i thought it only takes highest value one +2 to luck?

No rabbit gloves do not stack with the head... they're both luck bonus.

Karavek
02-20-2008, 05:50 PM
I ran STK on elite last night with a pug averaging lvls 5-7.Most of us where ranger hybrids myself a 2/3 rge ranger with decent trap skills( id performed well in many quest up to hard with about 70% success taking traps with a disable skill equal to a lvl 3 pure rogue with decent spot and search(though im starting to think spot is just moot when there is almost always at least one party member who knows where to search for a box already). However we also had a 6/1 rge ftr who was a strong if not master trapsmith. almost every trap we encountered took several trys for the rogue and several blew on him one actually killing a ranger ftr who was standing to close who had been at more then half life( i had no idea the boxes where blowing for so much dmg until then). When we reached the final chapter and got to the acid trap across from the shrine and the box blew there we ended up suffering many fatalities jsut trying to get through and deal with the onslaught of hob goblins on the other side when every attempt to run for and get through to the level after the fire trap ladder cost our rogue another death( I to kept pitting my evasion and 17 ref save agaisnt the rain of spells and the fire trap while trying to reach the lever).

Eventually we beat the hobies back and somehow i made the top of the ladder and took hit the switch and leapt for my life as there where a few shamans left on the top tier who made lingering dangerous. It was however complete and utter disaster when we reached the great room of flaming death pillars. Once upon a time even on elite I had similar builds as my current ranger rogue dance through the flame my evasion being more then enough as it should be even on elite. Now not even our rogue with all the buffs our wizard could summon where enough to give protection enough for the rogue to reach even the first box, my own best run with fire pro and fire resist a cats grace, bears endurance, false life, aid, my 17 ref save with the trapblast goggles id twinked from an old version of my build, couldnt reach past the first spike trap before the flame barrages caught me( maybe my jumping skills are rusty but I doubt I could of done much more to avoid all the fire) and turned me to bacon. after our rogue tried valiantly to recover stones at the least or even jsut run across all failed and he died countless times we had to admit defeat. Now I know STK on elite is around a lvl 7 challenge but that shouldnt mean it takes a devoted trap smith who couldnt of done much in any of the hard fights to take the traps that have to be taken to jsut reach the boss.

My suggestion make even elite trap dcs low again, make it alot more xp to disable each one so people wont want to see a trap skipped through for the sake of xp. Id bet make each trap grant a 20%/30%/40% xp bonus depending on challenge rating would make hybrid rogues invaluable as hell as long as the skill it takes isnt askign us to forsake our combat skills. Rogue are two things thief and ninja and must be able to do both not one or the other. If folks still would rather zerg then see 2 or 3 times the base xp of a quest let em, we rogues can then expect to level faster from one run then they will zerging 3 times.

krud
02-20-2008, 05:58 PM
Elite: Everyone should have to put some effort into it. Should need buffs and some feats/enhancements. Dex based rogues with resilience, 10pts of the upcoming trapsense or other enhancements, and top of the line non raid gear can get into the mid fifties. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me for elite. Str rogues and MC Rogues would need more feats or enhancements.


lol, there isn't any more a str based/MC rogue can do on top of that list you provided.

btw - my first test in von5, the 1st horizontal blade trap to the west 24n/36h/48e. not too bad, imo.

Emili
02-20-2008, 06:15 PM
Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Reference this post
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=541350&postcount=1
for specific numbers required to spot, search & disable all traps in the game.

Also with my Improved Evasion and mediocre Reflex save, I have yet to be killed trying to disable a trap.
So, honestly, I'd like to say I feel bad for those of you that are upset about the higher DCs, but I don't.
If your old method of doing traps isn't working, maybe you should slow down and think through a new approach.

Now, as a side bonus of not wasting all my build points in Way of the Mechanic and maximum dexterity scores and other goofy shizit, I can also do very well with dps. I'm not always first on the kill count, but I'm always in the top 3, and I've out damaged many a barbarian in my day. I also have 222 hit points; a really nice UMD and 11 capped skills. I can rez, heal, dps and take out traps. I also make a mean cappuccino! :D

You really do not need to waste all your precious build points into trapsmithing to be a great rogue. Play smarter.



Another excellent reference for trap DCs
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks


My skill breakdown.
Spot - 38
19 ranks
+15 item
+2 elf racial
+2 enhancments

Search - 46
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+2 elf racial
+4 enhancements

Disable Device - 47
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+7 tools

Open Lock - 51
19 ranks
+15 item
+10 dex bonus
+7 tools



33 is not very high at all for a pure rogue as most simths can breach 50 reflex save buffed. I have 33 trap reflex on my 12 ranger/4 rogue with the 2 lvls of trapsmith she has add her uncanny on before any buff so goes to 37 (when I get a head of good fortune on her will be 39). I've would consider putting 2 levels of pally on her to push her into 40's ... but in my mind pally and rogue should never meet as backstabbing is not an honorable thing for a pally. However that in itself means she'd still would need about 10 more points in reflex saves for some run in trap boxes. The biggest diff in a pure are just this... improved uncanny, 2 higher levels of trapsense and of course improved evasion. All in all 4 points from my build should I have built a 34dex pure rouge instead. As it stands the best approach now is just to run thru with a high HP barb with dodge on and res plp on the other side via a clicky.

Raithe
02-20-2008, 06:34 PM
Uhh, nothing I've mentioned is hard to get. I'm not talking raid loot or whatever. Just level appropriate gear, ie stuff within a few MLs of you. I suppose a barbarian would be effective at lvl 10 in plain +1 stuff?

Yes, of course he would. No offense, but asking that question makes you sound very unexperienced with D&D and roleplaying in general. I'll assume it was just a sudden lapse in understanding.



If you don't factor in level appropriate gear (which is a core concept of 3.5e p&p, btw), then everything is a joke. If all the fighters have +3 true chaos cheesegraters of ultimate doom and you balance the monsters as if they were fighting with starter swords, its not going to be any challenge. The same is true of basic rogue items, mainly +skills stuff, tools, and (for elite) +ref save items.

So what's your argument here? I was going to mention that you could turn what I said before completely around, and the argument remains intact. Why should someone who has farmed everything in the game and knows quests inside out go completely unchallenged by elite? They'll get bored regardless of how high you set DCs, because they have everything. DCs are not set to measure loot acquisition. Aside from primarily being a realistic measure of the complexity of what is being described by the storyline of an RPG module, DCs are set so that the party makeup has differentiated roles. In an MMO they therefore need to be pretty lax because as a developer you have no idea what the party makeup is going to be. With the existing game rules and reasonable DCs, you can be fairly certain that a pure sorceror will not be the primary choice for retrieving the second horn of the Crucible.

I can understand why many of the existing players want to be differentiated by their loot acquisition, because that's all they've got out of DDO so far. If it's allowed to continue, however, they will suffocate themselves out of playing the game, and everyone else who hasn't been playing forever will have already disappeared.

Vormaerin
02-20-2008, 07:54 PM
The lvl 10 barb would be effective as long as he didn't meet specific kinds of challenges normally considered with in his level of ability. Go to the wizards of the coast forums (Or any other D&D forums) and hear all about how loot assumptions are integral to the game mechanics. Trust me, I know because I run a very low magic item campaign and everyone is in total disbelief that the game system even functions like that. It does, but the DM (ie me) needs to be a lot more careful about the threats utilized. You aren't fighting a beholder at lvl 8 with the kind of loot you get in one of my campaigns.

In DDO, a negligibly equipped barb would have a very hard time functioning on level appropriate elite quests (he'd do fine on most normals diff quests). He'd still be of some value, but way under the expectations of the challenges presented. Similiarly, the rogue would be effective without trapmongering gear either.. as long as he didn't meet certain kinds of challenges. The primary role of EVERY D&D class is combat. Every class also has a secondary thing that they do. Trap mongering is not why you bring a rogue. You bring a rogue because they scout and do high burst damage through sneak attacks. (DDO devalues both those reasons, but that's another issue).

In p&p, there's not much loot that adds to skills. It mainly adds to combat. So combat numbers are designed with loot in mind, but skill DCs aren't. In DDO, there is a metric ton of skill boosting items. Not my cup of tea, but something that has to be accounted for. They should have wickedly nerfed all skills items when they did it for UMD, but they didn't. There is hardly a DC over 25 in p&p. That's about what skills plus normal stats can manage. If we operated like that in DDO, traps would be irrelevant after about lvl 6.

I really don't know what the elite player with all the uber loot does for a challenge, because I've never played a character like that. Personally, I think I'm one of those guys you think is going to be driven out of the game: I don't have a capped sugar daddy character or piles of phat lewt to twink downwards. Zero raid loot between all my characters (unless you count the Elemental Mithral Breastplate from TS?). Only do one or two quests most nights I play, because I don't zerg. And I've never had a problem finding or buying the skill items needed to meet the challenges my rogue has faced.

The new elite trap DCs are worrisome, though I don't play elite that often. But so far I've heard a lot more hysteria than facts about them. They certainly seem to attainable with the kind of gear that you would think someone playing quests on elite would have combined with a reasonable expenditure of feats and APs. The splashes may need to wade a little deeper (like your example barb/rogue did by picking up another level of rogue) for those handful of traps that ref save is critical for (there aren't many).

The traps were changed, it seems to me, because everyone and their brother could walk right through them. They might as well not even have been there. I think one of the cool things about DDO is that it even has traps. Non D&D based games almost never do. Ideally, they'll matter with or without a rogue along and it is possible, but difficult, to get past them without one. (and I don't mean 'die and rez on the other side'). There are players who claim that every trap in the game is like that already. I don't have that kind of skill or knowledge or whatever, though.

I don't think we are at the 'sweet spot' for trap design in DDO right now. I think we are closer than we were before Mod 6. A little scale back, at least on certain traps, seems reasonable. I don't think we should go back to where the feats and APs spent on traps are a total black hole of wasted effort because they are overkill on even a rogue 2 splash.

Raithe
02-20-2008, 09:56 PM
Go to the wizards of the coast forums (Or any other D&D forums) and hear all about how loot assumptions are integral to the game mechanics.

I think Wizards of the Coast (which you know is not the original owner of D&D) is a large part of the problem here. I don't think they are very interested in roleplaying anymore, and it seems they have a large degree of controversy within their own ranks. I am sure I could get any answer I wanted from their forums, just like I can get 7 different answers about simple things like Hold Monster on a warforged, and whether or not heavy fortification protects against vorpals.



The primary role of EVERY D&D class is combat.


Off topic and incredibly wrong. The generic role of every D&D class is adventuring, and some excel at such without any combat at all.



If we operated like that in DDO, traps would be irrelevant after about lvl 6.


This is sooo confusing. What in the world does this mean? Traps do half damage to everyone without evasion. Currently, only rogues and rangers have evasion (in the future, monks). Even if you assume that everyone will be able to make their saves consistently in elite content, the damage done against non-evaders will be a deterrent for all but the highest hit point characters. I would like to see a super high hitpoint character, without evasion, who can consistently save against DC 37 traps yet still remains viable for other purposes besides surviving traps... is someone really that worried about dwarven paladins who can barely hit stuff and when they do the mob goes, "Ow, you poked me?"

Characters with evasion should be good at evading. Period. Even if they are slightly underequipped and new to DDO, but not new to D&D. It kind of makes up for all the times they get ganked by a beholder's disentigrate ray...

Thrudh
02-20-2008, 11:47 PM
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=PaleGreen]Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Nobody is complaining about being able to find or disable traps... Those numbers didn't change...

Take your pure 16th level rogue into VON 5 on elite with your 33 reflex save and run through the blade traps to get to the box on the other side... tell me how you do...

Thrudh
02-20-2008, 11:50 PM
This is exactly what Turbine has done. If you read my previous post you will see that all of the traps (save cabal elite) can be done by an average rogue played intelligently.

You haven't done all the high-level traps since the change...

You haven't done all the traps as a low-level or mid-level rogue since the change either.

You can't state that "ALL the traps can be handled by an average rogue played intelligently" because you haven't tried them all SINCE THE CHANGE....

Vormaerin
02-21-2008, 02:43 AM
Off topic and incredibly wrong. The generic role of every D&D class is adventuring, and some excel at such without any combat at all.



This is sooo confusing. What in the world does this mean?

Characters with evasion should be good at evading.

For the first, D&D is a combat game. All the classes are designed with combat abilities in mind. It is expected that every character contribute effectively to the *combat*. They can also contribute in other ways. First edition didn't have any non combat abilities... except thievery. 2nd and 3rd had more, but they usually came at the expense of combat capability (the argument here about 'useless except for traps). 4e is doing even more to separate the two to avoid the gimp your combat for your RP stereotype. You can blame WotC design if you wish, but its the design this game is based on.

For the second, you are shifting topics. MY comments were directed specifically at your assertion that items shouldn't factor into DCs. That has nothing to do with whether or not wizards can run through traps. The saves bonuses from items are not that big a deal and both 3rd and 4th addition factor in assumptions about those items into their rules. Where items matter for traps is on the disarms and so on. If you don't factor +skills items into those DCs and use the pnp numbers, anyone buying the relevant skills *and* using the items is going to disarm everything automatically by early mid levels. The pnp DCs don't factor in +4 tools combined with +5 items because they don't exist.

What is it you want? The rogue to be able to do traps on elite without gear, feats, or enhancements, just class ability? I'm not trying to be snide with that. I've honestly lost sight of your position.

Vormaerin
02-21-2008, 02:49 AM
lol, there isn't any more a str based/MC rogue can do on top of that list you provided.

btw - my first test in von5, the 1st horizontal blade trap to the west 24n/36h/48e. not too bad, imo.


Well, nothing you would want to do most likely, but there are other feats and there may be other enhancements depending on class and race.

And those values are interesting. Its certainly feasible to make a rogue that can do those. But 24 is a huge difference for what is supposed to be a +2 lvl increase in difficulty. They need to up that rating if they expect it represent reality in any way.

Raithe
02-21-2008, 04:03 AM
For the first, D&D is a combat game.
No, D&D is a roleplaying game. If you are unsure of whether I am making that up, here is the first sentence of the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons) entry:



Dungeons & Dragons (abbreviated as D&D or DnD) is a tabletop fantasy role-playing game (RPG) originally designed by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, and first published in 1974 by the Gygax-owned company Tactical Studies Rules, Inc. (TSR).


Apparently I am not the only one who is running under that assumption. Sometimes DDO makes me wonder...



For the second, you are shifting topics. MY comments were directed specifically at your assertion that items shouldn't factor into DCs. That has nothing to do with whether or not wizards can run through traps. The saves bonuses from items are not that big a deal and both 3rd and 4th addition factor in assumptions about those items into their rules. Where items matter for traps is on the disarms and so on. If you don't factor +skills items into those DCs and use the pnp numbers, anyone buying the relevant skills *and* using the items is going to disarm everything automatically by early mid levels. The pnp DCs don't factor in +4 tools combined with +5 items because they don't exist.

What is it you want? The rogue to be able to do traps on elite without gear, feats, or enhancements, just class ability? I'm not trying to be snide with that. I've honestly lost sight of your position.

You seem to be the one shifting topics to skills items rather than saves. Your position is baseless - as I've already pointed out about six times now, DCs are not a measure of loot acquisition. If you don't want characters to be able to operate in quests several levels above them, remove the excessive loot from the random generator. You seem to be saying that a character that has made several trade-offs to achieve high reflex saves and good trapsmithing skills should have a reasonable chance of failure at navigating a trap of which he or she is aware. If you ask me, 5% chance of failure for such a character is excessive.

My position was clear. I said gear and buffs should never enter into any DC creation criteria. Gear items because they are rewards that can be disabled, buffs because they represent an expenditure above and beyond normalcy (also known as the mystical force of magic). I also said that DC creation should largely be a factor of realistic assessment of the scale and sophistication of the trap in question. If the trap is easily overcome without disabling it, there is little reason to make it difficult to evade and/or disarm. In the linear quest structure of DDO, it is also important that all traps that must be traversed to complete the quest be reasonable in nature. It would actually be more realistic and better quest design to drop the linear model and place traps in optional corridors where they could make the trap difficulty pose a question of threat assessment. Unfortunately we can't seem to achieve that (for some unknown reason that must be developer-related).

I'm not sure there is any point in my continuing to post. The understanding of the history and nature of fantasy roleplaying is important to the discussion, and there seems to be a detrimental shortage of it.

Angelus_dead
02-21-2008, 05:23 AM
No, D&D is a roleplaying game.
Are humans omnivores?

No, humans are bipeds.

krud
02-21-2008, 07:58 AM
If you ask me, 5&#37; chance of failure for such a character is excessive.
that's a 1 on a d20. isn't that always an automatic failure, no matter how good your score is? just like a 20 is an automatic save, no matter how bad your score is?



Well, nothing you would want to do most likely, but there are other feats and there may be other enhancements depending on class and race.
only 1 more feat (lightning reflexes = +2) and no enhancements are left besides stat (possibly +1). That will barely make up the build difference, let alone resilience and +10 enhancements. If those last two are required for even a dex based build to succeed, then there isn't much room for anyone else.

And those values are interesting. Its certainly feasible to make a rogue that can do those. But 24 is a huge difference for what is supposed to be a +2 lvl increase in difficulty. They need to up that rating if they expect it represent reality in any way.

The 24/36/48 values are not for the deadly spining blade/electric trap, but the 1st set of traps you get to. Considering that it typically is a one shot deal, or can be timed to avoid them, it doesn't seem too high. On normal, a good number of people can be buffed up enough to run thru without missing a save, plus the damage taken is not that bad (~40/hit). On hard a good rogue can easily hit those numbers, while an splash or str rogue may need some good buffs. On elite a good rogue with some buffs has a very good chance to make a save, while average or below average rogues would have ~50% or better.

if those same values apply to the spinning blade traps then elite becomes exponetially more difficult. Rogues unfamiliar with the twitch safe spots will surely die multiple times. Even a halfway decent rogue will have trouble if they mistime some blades, which is very easy to do. The only way around those is to familiarize yourself on normal or hard before trying elite. No more elite group dragging in the inexperienced rogue just to do the traps.

Raithe
02-21-2008, 09:00 AM
Are humans omnivores?

No, humans are bipeds.

The better analogy:

Humans are carnivores.

No, Humans in general are omnivores. Some specifically are herbivores.


Just because most everyone still playing DDO has combat and loot on the mind does not change the focus of the historic game, which focus is outside of Wizard of the Coast's, Hasbro's, and Turbine's control.

GORAK
02-21-2008, 10:34 AM
I guess I would consider myself an "omnivore" since I shop for groceries at Omni Foods.

:-)

Naash
02-21-2008, 05:04 PM
Nobody is complaining about being able to find or disable traps... Those numbers didn't change...

Take your pure 16th level rogue into VON 5 on elite with your 33 reflex save and run through the blade traps to get to the box on the other side... tell me how you do...

He would do fine.
I've never seen a good rogue RUN through that particular trap.

All this outpouring of sympathy for rogues is touching but we'll be ok.
Bad rogues will get smarter,real bad rogues will be rerolled.
Splash builds...

Ironwind
02-21-2008, 05:11 PM
Btw, IRONWIND

No one is discussing skills. Skills are easy. Any blind monkey can have the skills to do all the traps in the game except cabal elite. Its reflex saves that are the issue in this thread. Ref saves to do Stk fire room, pit lightning, scoundrel's run fire passage and other 'must make ref saves to succeed' traps. You might want to take your low 30s ref saves into those traps on elite now and see how easy it is.

I addressed skills as part of the larger issue.
I also specifically mention my reflex saves and ability to disable traps even when I have to run through the trap (which should be never).

Sure, I haven't been to STK on elite since mod 6, but I have been through level appropriate traps on elite and my lowe 30s reflex save plus improved evasion plus appropriate buffs have gotten me through just fine.

Ironwind
02-21-2008, 05:15 PM
<shrugs>
Interestingly, it seems you actually agree with my points. What you disagree about is whether current conditions conform to my suggestions. Yet you provide no hard data, not a single firm point of reference. I cannot then counter you but nor will I simply believe you. I think we can agree that simply because one level capped rogue hasn't found an overly hard trap DC doesn't mean that there aren't any.

I do not agree with all of your points.
I gave very specific hard data in my original post.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1575161&postcount=120
I also provided links to trap DCs for spot, search and disable all around the game.
Trap save DCs are being compiled; but as has been stated many times previously in this thread, "A rogue very rarely (if ever) needs to get hit by a trap to disable the trap."

Ironwind
02-21-2008, 05:23 PM
Nobody is complaining about being able to find or disable traps... Those numbers didn't change...

Take your pure 16th level rogue into VON 5 on elite with your 33 reflex save and run through the blade traps to get to the box on the other side... tell me how you do...

I have.
It worked out fine.
Some of you seem to miss the point.

Sure my reflex save is a lousy 33.
But I have improved evasion.
I have resist items, prot potions, stoneskin wands, etc.
I also have 5-11 other people in my party/raid who can buff/assist.

I have disabled the trap in VON5 on elite without dying.
If you can't, perhaps you should try a different tactic?

Ironwind
02-21-2008, 05:27 PM
You haven't done all the high-level traps since the change...

You haven't done all the traps as a low-level or mid-level rogue since the change either.

You can't state that "ALL the traps can be handled by an average rogue played intelligently" because you haven't tried them all SINCE THE CHANGE....

Wow, you really got me there.

I was lvl 12 when mod 6 came out and I have done level appropriate quests to get to 16.
So I've done all sorts of Gianthold quests, Orchard quests and Vale quests on elite.
I haven't had any trouble.

Sure, I haven't done ALL the traps IN THE GAME at the right level SINCE THE CHANGE. I am extrapolating based on the level 12+ quests that I have done.

Why don't you name a few level appropriate traps that you haven't been able to do since the change?

Don't make me roll a new level 1 rogue just to prove I'm right.

Raithe
02-21-2008, 06:20 PM
I love how everyone is talking about VoN 5... one of maybe 5 quests in the game that really made having a rogue something more than slightly convenient.

How many of the pure rogues who support this change had a problem getting into a group for VoN 5 if there wasn't another rogue already there, before Mod 6?

How many of the pure rogues who support this change had a problem before Mod 6 with people running through the lightning/blender traps without waiting for the rogue to "do his thing?"

How many of the pure rogues who support this change expect to be invited to a VoN 5/6 run if there is already a pure rogue in the raid?

Pure rogue situations haven't improved in the slightest. Everything that was metagamed before will continue to be metagamed. Pure rogues will now have excellent reasons to drop even more of their primary and secondary abilities for trapsmithing, and unless there is a particularly nasty trap in a quest that can't be metagamed without significant expense, they will not be wanted and may not even be welcome.

ViVid7th
02-21-2008, 06:31 PM
Wow, you really got me there.

I was lvl 12 when mod 6 came out and I have done level appropriate quests to get to 16.
So I've done all sorts of Gianthold quests, Orchard quests and Vale quests on elite.
I haven't had any trouble.

Sure, I haven't done ALL the traps IN THE GAME at the right level SINCE THE CHANGE. I am extrapolating based on the level 12+ quests that I have done.

Why don't you name a few level appropriate traps that you haven't been able to do since the change?

Don't make me roll a new level 1 rogue just to prove I'm right.



Ironwind, the Rescue quest in the harbor, level 1 quest, made level 3 by the Elite tag, DC 30 save required. Low level elite saves are completely out of whack, and the elite saves in general are a touch too high.

Ironwind
02-21-2008, 06:50 PM
Ironwind, the Rescue quest in the harbor, level 1 quest, made level 3 by the Elite tag, DC 30 save required. Low level elite saves are completely out of whack, and the elite saves in general are a touch too high.

Oh, I remember that quest and that trap!!!
I've lost many XP to that darn trap.
But that trap was ridiculous on Elite even before Mod6.
I remember taking my very first toon (a wizard) through there at level 5.
I did all sorts of buffing and potion popping before trying to jump and maneuver through that trap and it still killed me!

Ok, so certain traps are stupidly difficult. I'll grant that.
I'm working all weekend, but starting next week I'll make a lvl 1 rogue and run some level appropriate quests in the harbor through level 5. I'll report back with my findings.

Vormaerin
02-21-2008, 11:27 PM
Just because most everyone still playing DDO has combat and loot on the mind does not change the focus of the historic game, which focus is outside of Wizard of the Coast's, Hasbro's, and Turbine's control.

Of course its a roleplaying game. How does that invalidate my point? For the first 20 or so years of its existance, there was no GAME MECHANICS in any edition of D&D (booklets, basic set, AD&D 1/2) to cover any 'roleplaying' activity. It used the same rules as "Let's pretend" did, except for defining a referee. The game mechanics were for resolving combat when you were done with "Let's Pretend". Third edition is the first one to try to put numbers to social actions and the like. A nice thought, though they bungled it. 4e is going to try again.

This is a game mechanics discussion. Third edition absolutely factors player loot into their encounter designs. It says so explicitly in the DMG. Traps are encounters. The CRs and ELs suggested (and hence the xp awarded for overcoming them) do assume certain loot values by character level. The 4e designers are bragging that loot is less important in 4e because they only factor in 1 source of to hit bonuses, one source of AC bonuses, and one source of Saves bonuses into their numbers. DDO does the same thing, that's part of the function of the ML system.. allowing the Devs to evaluate loot effects on difficulty without knowing first hand what the characters are.

What kinds of DCs do you think traps should have? If you don't factor in loot, they need to be pretty low. A level 16 28pt human rogue, naked and unbuffed, has about a +20 reflex save vs traps. That fits with nastiest traps in p&p being between 20-30 to save. Are you proposing that elite mod 6 dungeon traps have Save DCs of 25?

Of course, in DDO that character in actual adventuring situations will have a +30 something reflex save even with subpar equipment and no thought whatsoever put into ref saves. If he puts some basic effort into it, it would be +40ish. Guys who really try are +50. I suppose you can just say... well, nothing wrong with overkill. And there is some truth to that... except that traps are encounters and worth xp. So they need to be a challenge or they shouldn't give any xp.

The rules designers for D&D absolutely factor in +saves item expectations into their encounter design and DDO follows suit. They shouldn't set the bar at the uppermost end of possible.... and its possible that they've done that with the current numbers..... but on elite, it should still require some effort to be able to do the traps. Same as with the fights.

Moving the traps way up in challenge on elite is a great move. I think they've overshot a bit, but I don't think they are in total crazy lulu land. A lot of folks are freaking out because they've always treated the traps as trivial and now they aren't. Its not unreasonable to expect the player on elite to learn the best way to disarm traps to minimize their chance of taking damage. That's no different than fighters blocking doorways instead of running into the middle of a swarm.

Are all the safe spots and twitch options reasonable expectations? Not in my opinion. But things are not as bad as folks are saying.

wizzy_catt
02-21-2008, 11:48 PM
Moving the traps way up in challenge on elite is a great move. I think they've overshot a bit, but I don't think they are in total crazy lulu land. A lot of folks are freaking out because they've always treated the traps as trivial and now they aren't. Its not unreasonable to expect the player on elite to learn the best way to disarm traps to minimize their chance of taking damage. That's no different than fighters blocking doorways instead of running into the middle of a swarm.Are all the safe spots and twitch options reasonable expectations? Not in my opinion. But things are not as bad as folks are saying.
over shot a bit? you call that overshot a bit? are you (beep)? go in lv1 quest sewer rescue in harbor that trap save dc has been raised up to mid 30s who in the world has +30 saves at lv1-3? thats overshot too much. how about that quest in 3barrels? the scoundrel's run? that ones got extreme deadly traps with no box to disable. dont forget its designed for lv7-9. what now? they going to make extra trap boxes for that quest? i dont think so. a lot of folks are freaking out? no not really. wanna try chains of flames on elite? you take traps as jokes i dodge them like playing mario like i always do. 19+27 save failure 190-200 pts of dmg per hit. 2 hits youre pretty much done. and box is inside the trap you wanna run over and disable it in that kind of trap? chains of flames is for lv12-14s and lv16 characters cant make a save on that, doesnt make sense at all. not in your opinion? what am i reading? its not your opinion then whos comment is this? your contradicting yourself.

wizzy_catt
02-22-2008, 12:24 AM
hey devs are you reading this? so many of the same topic here you cant be miss read all of them right? reply and tell us youre alive and not blind. at least i havent seen any replys from ANY of you since first Trap dc thread was posted.

krud
02-22-2008, 12:41 AM
over shot a bit? you call that overshot a bit? are you (beep)? go in lv1 quest sewer rescue in harbor that trap save dc has been raised up to mid 30s who in the world has +30 saves at lv1-3? thats overshot too much. how about that quest in 3barrels? the scoundrel's run? that ones got extreme deadly traps with no box to disable. dont forget its designed for lv7-9. what now? they going to make extra trap boxes for that quest? i dont think so. a lot of folks are freaking out? no not really. wanna try chains of flames on elite? you take traps as jokes i dodge them like playing mario like i always do. 19+27 save failure 190-200 pts of dmg per hit. 2 hits youre pretty much done. and box is inside the trap you wanna run over and disable it in that kind of trap? chains of flames is for lv12-14s and lv16 characters cant make a save on that, doesnt make sense at all. not in your opinion? what am i reading? its not your opinion then whos comment is this? your contradicting yourself.

All the harbor traps have boxes before the trap, so there is no need to run thru them to disable them. STK has the first trap i can think of that a lowbie must run thru to get to the box, don't have numbers on it yet. Don't have numbers for many of those other ones either. rainbow in the dark is reported at 45/50/55. Higher than 46 for chains of flame (lvl12) seems high, but not outrageous. An average lvl12 rogue when buffed with GH, haste should get near +40 when using his improved uncanny dodge boost. If your making multiple saves your chances are pretty bad, however most traps have a sweet spot from where you can disable the trap. The trick is finding it, which isn't always easy.

wizzy_catt
02-22-2008, 12:49 AM
All the harbor traps have boxes before the trap, so there is no need to run thru them to disable them. STK has the first trap i can think of that a lowbie must run thru to get to the box, don't have numbers on it yet. Don't have numbers for many of those other ones either. rainbow in the dark is reported at 45/50/55. Higher than 46 for chains of flame (lvl12) seems high, but not outrageous. An average lvl12 rogue when buffed with GH, haste, and a parrying item should get near +40 when using his improved uncanny dodge boost. If your making multiple saves your chances are pretty bad, however most traps have a sweet spot from where you can disable the trap.
thank you for pointing out, didnt i say mario? yes 'most traps' have safe spots but can u jump in those spots everytime? considering these factors: lag, first 3saves, 1s, amount of damage taken, no healing support, make up of group...etc. oh arnt you glad all the vale quests trap are now doing 0 dmg on elite? wait till they do 400pts of dmg per second and you'll see ppl (beep)ing about it on the forums.

krud
02-22-2008, 01:02 AM
thank you for pointing out, didnt i say mario? yes 'most traps' have safe spots but can u jump in those spots everytime? considering these factors: lag, first 3saves, 1s, amount of damage taken, no healing support, make up of group...etc. oh arnt you glad all the vale quests trap are now doing 0 dmg on elite? wait till they do 400pts of dmg per second and you'll see ppl (beep)ing about it on the forums.

Finding the sweet spot can really suck sometimes. Done that in von5, luckily it was bugged too or i'd have been toast. I guess, jumping in on elite for the first time will pose problems if you've never attempted the trap before. familiarity goes a long way. As far as lag, designers can't and shouldn't try to predict it and model it into quests.

Posts in this thread haven't offered many real values to see how bad things really are. That's why i'm trying to get some real numbers to see if things are as out of wack as some are reporting.

Vormaerin
02-22-2008, 02:42 AM
Posts in this thread haven't offered many real values to see how bad things really are. That's why i'm trying to get some real numbers to see if things are as out of wack as some are reporting.

Exactly. There's a lot of "this sucks" and very little of "what are our options" going on. Is it really unreasonable that on elite difficulty the rogue player should have some knowledge of the trap? Which traps have sweet spots that are pretty straightforward no one has bothered with before now? Which ones are really too difficult to expect someone to do by twitch, even though its possible?

redoubt
02-22-2008, 06:42 AM
QFT.

No one is complaining that trap damage went up. That is a good fix.

Almost everyone agrees that the increase in trap damage shouldn't extend to traps that can't be disabled. This seems self-evidently foolish and more likely to be an unintended consequence of the above than an actual design decision.

There is debate on trap DC's. It seems that the core of the debate is the 'sweet spot' of DC's for a given quest and difficulty level. Yes, there is some advocacy of the benefits of learning 'safe spots', et al but this is exactly the kind of meta-game thinking that already plagues DDO. Based on my experience and the discussions I've read, DC's have been adjusted to be too high. Perhaps there is a middle ground, above the old levels but well below these current ones? I know that my WIZ9/ROG1 won't be taking his second ROG level for evasion until DC's get to a level where evasion will help him. This seems contrary to Turbine's apparent desire to require MORE of trap responsive toons.

Well put. There are lots of threads that talk about "learning" the quest. Why does my rogue have to learn the quest? If you are going to make it so that you have to jump over spinning blade x to land on tiney space y, then I want a check based on my DD or spot or search to give me a clue as to which small space to crawl into before I hit the DD button.

In any event, I wholeheartedly agree with MiceElf. Turbine, what was your intent here? Are you satisfied that these are the outcomes you'd intended to create or can you consider that perhaps you've moved the slider too far in the correct direction. This is causing many of us frustration and draining fun from the game. We'd like to hear from you.

With respect,

Aladon

in line.

redoubt
02-22-2008, 06:48 AM
Exactly. There's a lot of "this sucks" and very little of "what are our options" going on.

True.

Is it really unreasonable that on elite difficulty the rogue player should have some knowledge of the trap?

Yes. My rogue is figuring out how to do the trap based on search, spot and disable device. Not me reading the trick on a website or previously learning when and where to jump and stand. I though the point of the reflex save was so that I didn't have to perfectly twitch the timing through a trap...? (We repeat quest because there is not enough to only do each quest once.)

Which traps have sweet spots that are pretty straightforward no one has bothered with before now? Which ones are really too difficult to expect someone to do by twitch, even though its possible? By all means, find this info as it appears to be the only way we will survive now. Me? I've almost quit playing my trapsmith... so not likely that I'll do much testing unless we hear from the devs that they are willing to discuss the issue with us. (Or at least amongst themselves.)

Vormaerin
02-22-2008, 11:54 PM
For normal and hard the quests work as you desire. The 'know the quest' feature for traps only applies on elite. And only matters for a handful of them. Are we even talking about 1&#37; of the content if you consider norm/hard/elite as separate things? Even if you don't, we are talking about a small minority of the traps. And you can make a rogue that still does the trap solely with reflex saves and protective buffs on elite. Its just pretty expensive to do so.

As an aside, I find it kind of interesting that one of the most often cited 'good things' about DDO is that there is some twitch element to the combat, unlike most MMOs. Yet putting a bit of it into traps on the hardest difficulty is cause for uproar. This is just an observation, btw, not an argument for timing traps.

Raithe
02-23-2008, 12:30 AM
Yet putting a bit of it into traps on the hardest difficulty is cause for uproar.

It's because the twitch play for traps is stupid metagaming. I can walk through several force traps while the graphic is showing up on my screen, and it does no damage (and I do so because I know it won't). The inverse is also true.

Ironwind
02-26-2008, 02:59 PM
This thread seems to have died, but I did some research last night and wanted to post my results.

Two Marketplace Quests:
Missing in Action & The Sunken Sewer.
Both are level 2 quests.
I entered both on Elite.

Missing in Action has electrical traps and spike traps.
The save DC for both traps was 30 on Elite.
Damage on a failed save (with Improved Evasion) was 12-19 per hit.
Double that to 24-38 for those without Improved Evasion.

Now, a level 2 quest on Elite lists as level 4.

A level 4 rogue has the following stats:
+4 base Reflex save
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
24 hit points +20 heroic vitality = 44

A level 4 rogue would also be expected to have a minimum 18 dexterity.
16 base +1 boost at 4th level +1 stat item = 18
18 dexterity provides an additional +4 reflex save.

So a level 4 rogue can be expected to have these MINIMUM stats:
44 hit points
+12 reflex save
Evasion

Given even the bare minimum equipment and buffs, these numbers are much better.
Cat's Grace potion, Bear's endurance potion, Aid, +Resistance item (trap blast goggles)

So our little level 4 Rogue needs to roll an 18 to completely avoid all damage from these elite traps, provided he uses NO BUFFS OR EQUIPMENT AT ALL. Should he fail the save, he'll survive anyway.

Give that same rogue a Cat's Grace potion and Trapblast Goggles and now the little level 4 Rogue only needs to roll a 12 to save against the trap.

Roll 12+ to save against an ELITE trap with only the barest of equipment and buffs does not seem overpowered at all.




PS.
Both the traps in Missing in Action can be disabled without triggering the trap.
The poison trap in the Sunken Sewer cannot be disarmed, but can be avoided.

redoubt
02-26-2008, 04:06 PM
I think you added something twice. Please check mine to see if I am missing anything.

18 dex + 1 level + 1 item = 20 (23 w/ cats) so...

4 base
5 dex (no buff)
4 trapblast
2 trapsense
15 total (16 w/cats)

Even with max dex and available buffs a 14 roll is needed. A char focused on dex and traps should not fail 70% of the time, even on elite.

krud
02-26-2008, 05:35 PM
PS.
Both the traps in Missing in Action can be disabled without triggering the trap.
The poison trap in the Sunken Sewer cannot be disarmed, but can be avoided.


That sums it up for just about all the low level quests (except the fire room in STK). Since a rogue (practically any rogue or MCrogue) can spot the trap, and then disable it, without coming anywhere close to it, then there is no reason to worry about DCs. I don't understand why these low level DCs are even an issue where rogues are concerned. All that matters is that the rogue is able to get the job done, without sacrificing his build, or needing a specific tutorial from someone else in order to do so. If he has enough skills points to spot, search and disable on elite (which aren't too hard to come by) then it doesn't matter if he has a reflex save of 2 or 200, it won't be a factor. It's everyone else that doesn't want a rogue in their group that needs to worry.

Ironwind
02-26-2008, 05:37 PM
I think you added something twice. Please check mine to see if I am missing anything.

18 dex + 1 level + 1 item = 20 (23 w/ cats) so...

4 base
5 dex (no buff)
4 trapblast
2 trapsense
15 total (16 w/cats)

Even with max dex and available buffs a 14 roll is needed. A char focused on dex and traps should not fail 70&#37; of the time, even on elite.

Ah, I did make an error.
Cat's Grace doesn't stack with the +1 stat item.

16 dex +1 level +1 item = 18 (21 w/ cat's grace)

4 base
4 dex
4 trapblast
4 uncanny dodge
1 cats grace dex bonus

So 13+ saves on a DC30 elite trap.

Still this doesn't reflect any buffs provided by the other 5 members of the party or trap sense enhancements & feats.

DNDJESS
02-26-2008, 10:02 PM
You guys are insane. A 9-page thread complaining that traps hurt? Are you kidding me?? OK, lets give the players what they're asking for. Change the spinning blade traps to spinning marshmallow traps, and the spike traps to feathers that tickle your lil' feet.

Really, what's the problem here? You might actually die when walking into a trap in an elite dungeon? Oh, the horror!! Isn't that the purpose of the trap? And there's no longer even a death penalty to worry about if you do die. Face the facts here, trap damage was such a joke before this mod that it was pathetic. Now it's no longer a cakewalk. Boo freakin hoo.

Pellegro
02-26-2008, 10:20 PM
This thread seems to have died, but I did some research last night and wanted to post my results.

Two Marketplace Quests:
Missing in Action & The Sunken Sewer.
Both are level 2 quests.
I entered both on Elite.

Missing in Action has electrical traps and spike traps.
The save DC for both traps was 30 on Elite.
Damage on a failed save (with Improved Evasion) was 12-19 per hit.
Double that to 24-38 for those without Improved Evasion.

...

So our little level 4 Rogue needs to roll an 18 to completely avoid all damage from these elite traps, provided he uses NO BUFFS OR EQUIPMENT AT ALL. Should he fail the save, he'll survive anyway.

Give that same rogue a Cat's Grace potion and Trapblast Goggles and now the little level 4 Rogue only needs to roll a 12 to save against the trap.

Roll 12+ to save against an ELITE trap with only the barest of equipment and buffs does not seem overpowered at all.

PS.
Both the traps in Missing in Action can be disabled without triggering the trap.
The poison trap in the Sunken Sewer cannot be disarmed, but can be avoided.



Thank you !!!

I hope the DEVs see this. This is the type of real feedback that is useful.

Gwylan's (LVL 7 quest) on elite has saves of 38 on traps. Seems quite reasonable to me given that its elite.

I would add that Eladrin recently clarified taht they do not intend for elite to be base level +2, but rather closer to base level +5. I think its more like 3 or 4 but w/e ....

Back to the point of my post: Thanks!

krud
02-26-2008, 11:45 PM
You guys are insane. A 9-page thread complaining that traps hurt? Are you kidding me?? OK, lets give the players what they're asking for. Change the spinning blade traps to spinning marshmallow traps, and the spike traps to feathers that tickle your lil' feet.

Really, what's the problem here? You might actually die when walking into a trap in an elite dungeon? Oh, the horror!! Isn't that the purpose of the trap? And there's no longer even a death penalty to worry about if you do die. Face the facts here, trap damage was such a joke before this mod that it was pathetic. Now it's no longer a cakewalk. Boo freakin hoo.
Thank you for that wonderful insight.

that's not really what the discussion is about. Most people aren't complaining that elite traps hurt. They should. It's about how a decent rogue, which, btw, is the only class that can deal with traps, is easily getting killed too. It will pigeonhole rogues into trap builds if DCs are set too high. Either that, or it will require them to have someone show them how to do their duties, or go practice on normal every time. Not very fair for anyone playing a rogue. Get us some concrete numbers and then we can see whether or not all the complaining is justified.

btw - still no definite value on the von5 elec/blade trap DC.

Ironwind
03-05-2008, 09:16 AM
I know that this is kind of pointless, since the Devs are reducing trap save DCs on Elite; but...

Halls of Shan-To-Kor ELITE
The dreaded fire trap.
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:fire. You roll a 2 (+25): save!
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:fire. You roll a 2 (+22): save failure!

Of course I had to go back and deliberately step in the fire to get that result, because I was able to cross through the entire room without making a single save versus fire trap. You can navigate that trap if you are patient and time the fire jets. I did forget about the spike traps and took 14 points of damage from the first one...then I remembered them.

Anyway, the dreaded fire trap in STK on Elite - save DC 25-26

unionyes
03-05-2008, 10:02 AM
Not trying to drift away from DC's into a discussion of playstyle, but......

In a necro quest last night on elite, I don't run there that much but I was bored. There were two deaths due to trap, which is lucky as the traps in this quest (I can't even remember the name of it, there are so many tombs out there they all run together) seemed to be mostly spike traps that didn't even cover the whole floor, just parts of it. It happened the same way both times. My spot would trigger, I would say 'trap' and simultaneously the trap would go off and kill the poor soul who set it off. I would disarm it, the cleric would raise the dead guy, and on we would go. It was the same person who died both times. And guess what he was complaining about? Yep. The trap DC's are waaaaaay to high since the mod. One player even pointed out that the trap covered about 12% of the floor in the hallway, and he just said yeah, that's my luck that's where I stepped.

If there are traps and I know they are there but don't remember exactly where they are, I stay behind the rogue (or the barbarian who is running off ahead, more than one way to find a trap :) ). If I don't know the quest, I stay behind the rogue too. That's just me though.

Are the DC's too high? Maybe some of them. But IMO it comes down to this. Bring a good rogue, or a stack of raise dead scrolls for your cleric. I can't remember the tip number, but one of them is 'Rogues can make good scouts, and save your party time and hit points'

Riggs
03-05-2008, 10:30 AM
I think you added something twice. Please check mine to see if I am missing anything.

18 dex + 1 level + 1 item = 20 (23 w/ cats) so...

4 base
5 dex (no buff)
4 trapblast
2 trapsense
15 total (16 w/cats)

Even with max dex and available buffs a 14 roll is needed. A char focused on dex and traps should not fail 70% of the time, even on elite.

Ran my new halfling rogue/pally through stuff recently. On leite, from level 2 up to level 6 stuff so far - 75% fail rate for elite traps.

No cats, so 24 dex, various enhancements, +2 save item, heroism. +20 to save vs traps by level 6, still failing most of the time in House K quests - which are level 5 quests, and one is level 6 I think.

Lizardgrad89
03-05-2008, 10:33 AM
It seems to me that the devs are trying really hard to give the "uber" toons something to do, while still having a playable game for everybody else.

Traps, enemy casters and enemy HP seems to be at the heart of this change.

I think the general theory is:

Anybody can run normal, if you are just here to have fun, play on normal.
If you want more of a challenge, move up to hard.
If you are a raid loot junkie that plays 60 hours a week, give elite a shot.

Elite seems to me to be beyond the abilities of almost any pug group, you need to be running a tight guild group to get through level-appropriate elite quests. So yeah, you won't be able to grab a random rogue and succeed on elite, but you aren't supposed to be able to do that.

What I have seen on this thread is a lot of people who just play for fun (which is cool and the right way to do it, IMO) but who don't seem to realize they have been systematically excluded from the elite levels (unless they decide put a lot more effort and committment into the game, and become uber).

The devs have had to deal for a long time with a serious problem: the ability gap between the hard core and casual gamers. This is their answer, to make the normal levels easier so the casual players can succeed, and the elite levels much harder so the hard core gamers have some challenge. I think it's an elegant solution, it's just too bad they didn't have this mind-set from Beta, or everyone would have long ago accepted the different levels for what they only now have become.

Hvymetal
03-05-2008, 12:23 PM
It seems to me that the devs are trying really hard to give the "uber" toons something to do, while still having a playable game for everybody else.

Traps, enemy casters and enemy HP seems to be at the heart of this change.

I think the general theory is:

Anybody can run normal, if you are just here to have fun, play on normal.
If you want more of a challenge, move up to hard.
If you are a raid loot junkie that plays 60 hours a week, give elite a shot.

Elite seems to me to be beyond the abilities of almost any pug group, you need to be running a tight guild group to get through level-appropriate elite quests. So yeah, you won't be able to grab a random rogue and succeed on elite, but you aren't supposed to be able to do that.

What I have seen on this thread is a lot of people who just play for fun (which is cool and the right way to do it, IMO) but who don't seem to realize they have been systematically excluded from the elite levels (unless they decide put a lot more effort and committment into the game, and become uber).

The devs have had to deal for a long time with a serious problem: the ability gap between the hard core and casual gamers. This is their answer, to make the normal levels easier so the casual players can succeed, and the elite levels much harder so the hard core gamers have some challenge. I think it's an elegant solution, it's just too bad they didn't have this mind-set from Beta, or everyone would have long ago accepted the different levels for what they only now have become.
Our argument was, the other classes did not have to put as much effort into running elite as a Rogue, it wasn't the theory behind but the actual amount it was raised. Now had they made a melee equally specc out to hit elite mobs (you know as well as I do that hitting with melee on elite content isn't a problem), and made a spellcaster equally specc out as much to land a spell then you might have an argument, however the way I saw it the other classes were not REQUIRED to run with top of the line gear, spend multiple feats + a lot of action points or splash 2 levels of Paladin in order to do what a majority of the player base was going to bring you into the quest to do. So should they have upped all of those requirements to run elite content (which they won't have to now) you might have actually had an argument that held water......

Not to mention pigeon-hole any other class into 1 single aspect of that class in order to run elite content.

Josh
03-05-2008, 01:00 PM
You guys are insane. A 9-page thread complaining that traps hurt? Are you kidding me?? OK, lets give the players what they're asking for. Change the spinning blade traps to spinning marshmallow traps, and the spike traps to feathers that tickle your lil' feet.

Really, what's the problem here? You might actually die when walking into a trap in an elite dungeon? Oh, the horror!! Isn't that the purpose of the trap? And there's no longer even a death penalty to worry about if you do die. Face the facts here, trap damage was such a joke before this mod that it was pathetic. Now it's no longer a cakewalk. Boo freakin hoo.

What a delightfully inane post. People aren't complaining about the damage per see...traps should hurt, period. I don't think anyone would (or has) disagree with that. What people are clamoring about is that the save DC's weren't scaling with quest level. There has to be some metric involved with the difficulty of the quest, and the arbitrary boost ****bine gave the DC's was totally out of whack.

Way to totally ignore the idea behind the post and generalize everyone.

Josh
03-05-2008, 01:03 PM
Thank you !!!
I would add that Eladrin recently clarified taht they do not intend for elite to be base level +2, but rather closer to base level +5. I think its more like 3 or 4 but w/e ....

If that's the metric they want to use, fine. No argument here. Then the XP and loot should be +5 levels also, not +2.

But don't tell everyone that elite is a +2 EL, but "secretly" make it +5. That's just stupid.

Lizardgrad89
03-05-2008, 01:42 PM
Oh, I don't know, my L16 sorc FoD's the heck out of mobs in Vale quests on normal, but can't land ANYTHING on elite. Have to go to damage spells, and with all the hit points the mobs have, that takes forever, and my spell points run like water.

I realize they've made life hard on rogues with this change, but I believe I have heard that Mod 7 is bringing some much needed rogue love, so hopefully there will be a rebalancing at that time.

Which, btw, will make me happy, because my L15 (12R/3P) battle rogue needs some love now, after these changes.

Lizardgrad89
03-05-2008, 01:47 PM
If that's the metric they want to use, fine. No argument here. Then the XP and loot should be +5 levels also, not +2.

But don't tell everyone that elite is a +2 EL, but "secretly" make it +5. That's just stupid.

Agreed (except for the "stupid" part).

However, if they don't want to change the XP bonus for elite, I'd be ok with just having a +3 bonus to elite chests. :)

Pellegro
03-05-2008, 04:17 PM
This discussion is kinda pointless now, as the release notes for Mod7 clearly state that they are reducing the trap save DCs on elite.

Now, anybody with a decent reflex save can ignore traps altogether. Even on elite!

Yay ... I guess ...

DeadlyDaph
03-15-2008, 10:50 PM
I took a break from DDO and came back.. Looking forward to playing.. I have a 8 Ranger/ 7 Rogue.. I really wanted to do Tempest Spine.. Yes a level 15 doing TS.. Just wanted to run some old scool content to shake off the rust and I get to the first fire trap.. Made sure everything was in order. GHero check fire resistance check and take the trap as normal and bam dead in two shots.. I didn't pay too much to the rolls and thought it was strange and then I decided to run Von 5 on elite for fun and to kill the dragon on elite to finish out everything in house K on elite. Got almost every trap I came acrossed I died.. I have done Von 5 many times before with little trouble but not all out death after death.. Finally got the dragon dead and looked at my repair bill and was like ouch.. Then I realize something was amiss.. People in my party were talking about the DC for traps now.. I love my ranger/rogue toon and if they make it where you die everytime you got to disable a trap I'm not spending all my plat to repair my gear and having to recall out to fix my gear cause traps are impossible to get past one and if and when you do fail a save that you die cause it does 200 points of damage a shot.. It will make me retire my toon and if not retire my subscritpiton.. Turbines way of pigeonholing you into making a character they want you to play and not the character you wanna play.. Another concern is if they are going to ingnore our pleads to lower and balance out the DC on traps maybe they could actually add better armor to the game cause +5 has been out since the begining and now it is a dime a dozen and doesn't help as the mobs get harder and have way more hitpoints.. So either you agree or disagree this is where I stand that the DC have gotten crazy and to me even a twinked out full rogue can't make it through traps they will start to disappear like clerics have and then the game will might aswell let whatever took over the Marketplace tent totally take over and kill everyone in site. Shut down the servers and call it a day..

honkuimushi
03-15-2008, 11:45 PM
I took a break from DDO and came back.. Looking forward to playing.. I have a 8 Ranger/ 7 Rogue.. I really wanted to do Tempest Spine.. Yes a level 15 doing TS.. Just wanted to run some old scool content to shake off the rust and I get to the first fire trap.. Made sure everything was in order. GHero check fire resistance check and take the trap as normal and bam dead in two shots.. I didn't pay too much to the rolls and thought it was strange and then I decided to run Von 5 on elite for fun and to kill the dragon on elite to finish out everything in house K on elite. Got almost every trap I came acrossed I died.. I have done Von 5 many times before with little trouble but not all out death after death.. Finally got the dragon dead and looked at my repair bill and was like ouch.. Then I realize something was amiss.. People in my party were talking about the DC for traps now.. I love my ranger/rogue toon and if they make it where you die everytime you got to disable a trap I'm not spending all my plat to repair my gear and having to recall out to fix my gear cause traps are impossible to get past one and if and when you do fail a save that you die cause it does 200 points of damage a shot.. It will make me retire my toon and if not retire my subscritpiton.. Turbines way of pigeonholing you into making a character they want you to play and not the character you wanna play.. Another concern is if they are going to ingnore our pleads to lower and balance out the DC on traps maybe they could actually add better armor to the game cause +5 has been out since the begining and now it is a dime a dozen and doesn't help as the mobs get harder and have way more hitpoints.. So either you agree or disagree this is where I stand that the DC have gotten crazy and to me even a twinked out full rogue can't make it through traps they will start to disappear like clerics have and then the game will might aswell let whatever took over the Marketplace tent totally take over and kill everyone in site. Shut down the servers and call it a day..

If you check the Weekly Dev activities, it mentions that the save DCs will be lowered in Mod 7. It doesn't say how much. When it goes live, we're going to have to try things again and se how they go. Then we can give our feedback on the new DCs. Hopefully things will be good in Mod 7, but it could take a few tries to fix things. That is one of the things I dislike about the new, longer release schedules. If tthings need to be tweaked a bit, it takes forever to fix things if you don't get it right the first time.

Wu_Jen
03-16-2008, 05:36 AM
It's not necessary to min/max as much as you say. Drop dex to 16 and you get 6 build points to shuffle around however you like. Just playing around on the character planner i made a generic 28pt human 12 rog. Max ranks in every important rogue skill with plenty of extra skill points to allocate. AP can be shuffled for a more focused build. Way of the mechanic is not necessary. Combat is not sacrificed, not the greatest, but not incapable of fighting. Even without a major trapsmithing focus with enhancements and feats, he is still plenty capable of getting thru elite content at level 12. Hardly gimped, and minimally twinked. Halfling, elf or drow gets even better.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.80
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 12 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Rogue)
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 16
Will: 4

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 12) (with +4/5item)
Strength 12 12 (16)
Dexterity 16 23 (28)
Constitution 14 14 (18)
Intelligence 12 12 (16)
Wisdom 10 10 (14)
Charisma 10 10 (14)

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 12)
Balance 7 17
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 0 2
Disable Device 5 18
Haggle 4 7
Heal 0 0
Hide 7 21
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 5 10
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 7 21
Open Lock 7 22
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 5 18
Spot 4 17
Swim 1 1
Tumble n/a 7
Use Magic Device 4 18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip

Level 2 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense

Level 4 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense III

what can we expect?

+38 reflex save, unbuffed:
base +8
dex +9
trap sense (feat) +4
trap sense (enh) +3
imp uncanny dodge +4
HV save boost +4
lightning reflexes +2
resist item +4 (trapblast goggles)

trapsmithing w/+11 gear, unbuffed
spot 30
search 35
DD 42 with +5 lockpicks
OL 44 " "

Your taking feats to improve your reflex save, infact 2 of them out of your 7. Basically your shoehorning the rogue into a trapmonkey. Which I believe is what we don't want to do, right?

Steal the Healing Elixer has always been a fubared quest on Elite. It's a lvl 1 quest and on Elite that makes it a lvl 3 quest. The DC's to disable the traps are 30+

Lvl 3 rogue
20 INT (+5 DD)
6 ranks DD
+5 tools (+7DD)
+2 DD AP
+5 DD bound item
+4 Fox Cunning Buff from pot (+2 DD)
+2 INT Tome (+1 DD)
= +30 DD meaning you dont fail on a 1

Now granted that is the most buffed up lvl 3 rogue you can have for it, but still it shouldn't take that extreme a character to not fail.

krud
03-16-2008, 07:28 PM
Your taking feats to improve your reflex save, infact 2 of them out of your 7. Basically your shoehorning the rogue into a trapmonkey. Which I believe is what we don't want to do, right?

Steal the Healing Elixer has always been a fubared quest on Elite. It's a lvl 1 quest and on Elite that makes it a lvl 3 quest. The DC's to disable the traps are 30+

Lvl 3 rogue
20 INT (+5 DD)
6 ranks DD
+5 tools (+7DD)
+2 DD AP
+5 DD bound item
+4 Fox Cunning Buff from pot (+2 DD)
+2 INT Tome (+1 DD)
= +30 DD meaning you dont fail on a 1

Now granted that is the most buffed up lvl 3 rogue you can have for it, but still it shouldn't take that extreme a character to not fail.

That's kind of an old post you're referencing, however, only 1 feat, lightning reflexes, is a selected feat (the trap sense feat is automatic for rogues). Also, i goofed, improved uncanny dodge gives a +6 bonus (not +4), so even without lightning reflexes you're still looking at a +38 for an average lvl12 human rogue (+35-38 for non-human rogues). Add a GH buff, parrying item, haste and you are already at +43-46. The first VoN5 DC is 48 on elite, so an average, non-trap specced build will fail on a 1(+46) to 4(+43). Not all that bad, especially if it's only a one shot deal. I think, however, that the electric trap is a little higher than that (maybe 50+). That may be a little much for an average rogue, or multiclass.

I think you're confusing the reflex DCs with the disable DC. I'm not sure about your disable numbers, but remember you only blow up a trap if you roll more than 5 below the disable DC, you can always try again until you get it. I just leveled a new MCrogue. I don't think the disable DCs were out of wack.

samagee
03-17-2008, 11:26 AM
In your second example You conveniently left out any resistance item. Even a +4 would give You a 37 and cut Your failure rate in half...........I do agree, However, that the trap DC's are a bit high at the moment....................

If they are to high, then you are not a rogue or anywhere near being a trapsmith. You are using items to get you where a real rogue is, or would be at those lower levels. What did you expect?

samagee
03-17-2008, 11:29 AM
I have no sympathy at all for those who are not true rogues. They don't allow us to steal from critters. They don't allow us to steal from the barrels and crates in adventures. We have to smash them instead of being stealthy. They don't allow us to use ropes and climbing tools to approach things in a different angle. So they give us good traps to ensure that rogues have something to do. And your not happy with it because you can't leave a real rogue out of your group. Sounds like someone needs to go back to the solo ego stroking games to me.