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Velorn
02-12-2008, 04:24 PM
Hiya Fighters,

So Freebee hit level 16 last night and went to the trainer. Know what, there was nothing he wanted. Nothing he needed. Very disappointing. I was hoping to keep him a pure fighter till L20 but with the lack of feat choices that would actually be beneficial, it was not to be. Just to be clear, there were feats I could have taken as a fighter, but they were of no consequence and a waste IMHO. A guildie pointed out the Paladin trainer that was beside me. I took Paladin as my 16th level and gained a lot of really cool benefits. Like healing wand usage and a boost to my saves while keeping the same BAB progression.

Anyone else experience the same thing?

Hence
02-12-2008, 05:21 PM
Im in the same boat. I have refused to level because I know there is nothing I want to take as a fighter, and I dread multi-classing.
Im level 14 right now, but Im also rank 75! :eek: So I can go level to 16 at any time.

I don't think 2 levels of paladin will net me much, some saves and wand usage.. what else?. 2 levels of rogue? I dont know. I will continue to be level 14 until I finally figure something out.

Cold_Stele
02-12-2008, 05:27 PM
Yeh, in the absence of Superior THF I took Cleave and Great Cleave.

Pretty disappointing. The feats aren't hideous, but I can see why I didn't need them the first 14 levels.

If the devs don't fix the BAB 15 slowdown then one thing I'm thinking of doing is respeccing and putting in Spring Attack.

All in all the level cap was pretty much an anti-climax for Ftrs.

Part of me even wonders if the BAB progression didn't even make me worse :(

Currently rolling a TWF Barb - wondering if pure Ftrs are going to be an endangered species...

Tanka
02-12-2008, 05:31 PM
Fighters, up until recently, were the Tacticians of choice. Now Barbs have them beat with their absurdly superior Str.

Fighters are still at the top for AC, especially one with a 3 Pally splash for the extra +2 Aura (not pure classed, but Fighters are one of the only classes in PnP that shouldn't be a pure class character, if only because of their tremendous lack of abilities).

Otherwise, yeah, with the lack of STHF, Fighters just don't compare with any proper Barb or any well-built TWF Str Ranger.

maddmatt70
02-12-2008, 05:54 PM
Fighters, up until recently, were the Tacticians of choice. Now Barbs have them beat with their absurdly superior Str.

Fighters are still at the top for AC, especially one with a 3 Pally splash for the extra +2 Aura (not pure classed, but Fighters are one of the only classes in PnP that shouldn't be a pure class character, if only because of their tremendous lack of abilities).

Otherwise, yeah, with the lack of STHF, Fighters just don't compare with any proper Barb or any well-built TWF Str Ranger.

I just got to say are you kidding me. I can compete with any barb or ranger in any quest in the game. I love outkilling a barbarian and taking 50% less damage then they did in a quest and the clerics like it too.. Rangers tend to be hp challenged..

That being said there was very little to get excited about with the new mod for me in terms of feats. I did pick up otwf which is very nice, but without superior twf fighting coming out I currently have a weaksuace feat and the spring attack line which is o.k. considering mobility is gimped and dodge adds a whopping 1 to ac. The pull for me would be two levels of rogue for the evasion, but I did not go there as I anticipate more feats on the horizon. It is clear the developers did not fully complete the leveling up in time for this mod, but will probably address in the anniversay mod and mod7...

Tanka
02-12-2008, 06:03 PM
I just got to say are you kidding me. I can compete with any barb or ranger in any quest in the game. I love outkilling a barbarian and taking 50% less damage then they did in a quest and the clerics like it too.. Rangers tend to be hp challenged..
You obviously haven't played with the right Barbs or Rangers. ;)

Seriously. Well built Barbs and Str Rangers (not dinky Bow Rangers) kill pure Fighters.

Killcount is not a good gauge for DPS. It just means you got the last swing off. I could build a Sorc just for melee and walk up, smack the creature once as it's about to die and "steal" the kill, thus getting the kill increment. Does that mean that Sorc is contributing more damage? Rarely (discounting spells, of course).

Point is, Ftr THF vs Barb THF, Barb does more damage, has a bigger crit range, higher Str and more HP. Sure, that takes more Cleric-ing, but most elite players are fine with that.

Snoggy
02-13-2008, 09:08 AM
Does that mean that Sorc is contributing more damage?

Since this game doesn't award you XP per mob you kill, like a lot of other MMO's ... damage PER SECOND seems to be a much less useful a measuring tool in DDO.

A very simplified analogy: Superior DPS doesn't help you complete The Low Road any easier. ;)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-13-2008, 01:17 PM
You obviously haven't played with the right Barbs or Rangers.

We have been through this in my threads ad nauseam. Mad and myself are not the only fighters who REPETITIVELY beat barbs in the quests we run. Remember, there are a lot of people that talk smack in this forum, but dont add up to anything spectacular in the game.

I will enlighten the non believers once again, and Maddmatt and many other fighters know what I will say is true. MOST barbarians in the game are ill prepared in either equipment, build choice, and most importantly gameplay to effectively play to the strengths of a barbarian. Few barbs will admit it, but either their overflowing testosterone gets them killed faster than a 100m fly parade to a pile of kobald dung... or they dont play to the strengths of their class.

Sure, on paper barbs beat fighters in DPS if everything is balanced. However DDO is NOT pen and paper. DDO is 33% build, 33% weapons, and 33% gameplay. There are arcade elements, game mechanics, and tactical decisions that need to be included into the numbers in an MMO that just is not an option in pen and paper. So many power gamers in this forum EXCLUDE gameplay as a discussion piece when discussing builds, and that in my honest opinion is foolish. Mad, myself and all the fighters that routinely beat barbarians know what Im saying. And fighters arent the only melee class that can outfight a barbarian. Just because a barbarians crit range and strength are superior to fighters, that doesnt mean it is helping you kill faster. If I'm hitting on every almost every swing (connect on a TWO) and critting often who cares!? Its not all about the highest number. Barbarians arent better only because some DPS numbers are higher than fighters. That alone does not guarantee success in DDO. There are many many other factors that come into play.

Apparently, the overwhelming power barbarians have been granted is NOT being realized to its highest potential by many (not all) barbs in this game. And it has to do with the way they build their character and how they play it. Now I play with some very good barbs that can kick my arse, so I play with the best... but they will tell you I can hang with them... and theres not very many that can take me down... not even triple raged.

Now, if you ask me am I happy with not getting STHF I will say of course not. I was really banking on STHF, as were many fighters. A wisely built & played barbarian will certainly have an edge in DPS over fighters. Doesnt make barbarians the only DPS class to play in the game however, and I still prefer to play my fighter over my barbarian. Versitility and balance. And simplified gameplay with few clickies mean I achieve my goals before most DPS'ers do... and so do many well built and played fighters. When you add in the feat variety fighters get, there are so many good ways to build a pure or mixed class fighter. Believe me, Fighters are going NOWHERE. We still outnumber barbarians by much math.

maddmatt70
02-13-2008, 05:51 PM
You obviously haven't played with the right Barbs or Rangers. ;)

Seriously. Well built Barbs and Str Rangers (not dinky Bow Rangers) kill pure Fighters.

Killcount is not a good gauge for DPS. It just means you got the last swing off. I could build a Sorc just for melee and walk up, smack the creature once as it's about to die and "steal" the kill, thus getting the kill increment. Does that mean that Sorc is contributing more damage? Rarely (discounting spells, of course).

Point is, Ftr THF vs Barb THF, Barb does more damage, has a bigger crit range, higher Str and more HP. Sure, that takes more Cleric-ing, but most elite players are fine with that.

I think you need to re-examine your own build and play style. I frequently run with the some of the best rangers and barbarians on my server; specifically, cay (ranger) and axer (barbarian) and I compete with them. No I dont outkill them (i can outkill or out dps cay on occasion) or out dps them (especially axer), but they are not blowing me out of the water. I outkill and out dps 95+% of the rangers and barbarians out there. You can attribute that to whatever you want.. I dont use thf by the way i am a twf.

This is an aside but twf fighters do the most dps for a fighter build. It was a major disapointment that they did not add suptwf as it would have meant fighters would have otwf but pure rangers and barbarians would not which would have provided some more separation..

Tanka
02-14-2008, 12:27 AM
Les, let me put it this way then:

A mediocre player with "the best build ever" will be outperformed by a great player with a mediocre build every time.

No matter the class, no matter the build, no matter what.

I'll admit that there are tons of Barbs out there. Tons. And often, yes, Tanka outdoes them hands down. However, I know several great Barb players, but they're also incredible players in the first place.

Taking equal player skill, it comes down to the build, and assuming equal items/starting stats, the Barb will hit harder and hit more reliably. Every time.

But when you compare a great player to a bad one? It's obviously going to skew in the favor of the great player quite dramatically, often giving the appearance that the other player is doing very little to contribute.

Fighters are starting to have less and less advantages over any other class. The biggest reason to take Fighter levels in PnP is the plethora of feats. Feats that we don't have access to in DDO. It opened up PrCs much faster if you were a Fighter as compared to a Ranger or Paladin (unless the PrC was very specific in its requirements).

All it does in DDO is grant a ton of feats. Again, feats that are quite limited in scope, so people just end up taking several Toughness feats because they literally have nothing else to take.

Uska
02-14-2008, 02:34 AM
You obviously haven't played with the right Barbs or Rangers. ;)

Seriously. Well built Barbs and Str Rangers (not dinky Bow Rangers) kill pure Fighters.

Killcount is not a good gauge for DPS. It just means you got the last swing off. I could build a Sorc just for melee and walk up, smack the creature once as it's about to die and "steal" the kill, thus getting the kill increment. Does that mean that Sorc is contributing more damage? Rarely (discounting spells, of course).

Point is, Ftr THF vs Barb THF, Barb does more damage, has a bigger crit range, higher Str and more HP. Sure, that takes more Cleric-ing, but most elite players are fine with that.

Not me I would rather have a good fighter taking less damage then a SP spounge of a barb any day. He may kill slightly slower but we can kill more as I am not using my resources wastefuly, now if the silly barb wants to supply me with my heal scrolls, wands and mana potions hell I will heal him till the cows come home. But if he wants to soak up to much of my sp well I will let him die and concentrate one the fighter who isnt costing me so much and carry the barb to the shrine if and when there is one.

Cold_Stele
02-14-2008, 03:50 AM
Madd, Uska, Leslie - I just don't agree with you guys, and neither does the math.

All you have to do is look at the numbers below.

What they basically add up to is that 'to hit' is the same, Barb does 8 extra damage per hit, +4 to trip/stunning blow and does DOUBLE the amount of criticals with a greataxe.

Like you, my Ftr smokes 99% of the competition regardless of class. That's cos, like you, I've been playing for way too many hours over the last two years, and logged months if not years on FPS games prior to this. My twinked toon is a 32 point reroll, with old style raid loot and tomes coming outta my ears, SOS and almost any item I want on AH.

Simple fact of the matter is though, if respec were available and I changed to Barb, I'd be stronger, faster, tougher, hit harder and crit more...


**These numbers are at lvl 14 and don't include Scourge Choker or Litany of the Dead bonuses**

dwarven barbarian:
Usual max str: 46 +18 STR bonus attack/damage/trip
18 base
3 levels
6 item
3 tome
10 greater rage w/ enhancements
4 madstone
2 rage potion

to hit with max power attack/axe enhancements and +5 greataxe: 31 (39 w/o PA)
14 base
18 str
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements
-8 PA

damage with max PA/axe enc. and +5 gaxe: 1d12+50
27 str (2 hander)
2 axe enc.
5 wep
16 PA

FIGHTER (SAME CONDITIONS)
str: 39 +14 STR bonus attack/damage/trip - 4 less in Trip/Stunning Blow so Ftr has to max those (10AP each) to EQUAL Barb
18 base
3 enhancement
3 level
6 item
3 tome
4 madstone
2 rage pot

to hit: 31 (36 w/o PA) (EQUAL TO BARB)
14 base
14 str
2 wep focus feats
5 wep
2 axe enh
-5 PA

damage: 1d12+42 (8 LESS THAN BARB)
21 str (2hander)
2 axe enc
4 feat
5 wep
10 PA

What the numbers basically add up to is that 'to hit' is the same, Barb does 8 extra damage, +4 to trip/stunning blow and does DOUBLE the amount of criticals with a greataxe.

Oh and in this scenario (Madstone x2 and Rage Pot) that Ftr's AC isn't going to be worth a damn, whatever it is to start off with....


what else does a barb gain over a fighter aside from critical range? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!

Better Con, HP, Saves, DR, equal or better trip/stun modifiers, etc, etc, etc (you did read this thread, right?).

Tanka
02-14-2008, 09:49 AM
Simple fact of the matter is though, if respec were available and I changed to Barb, I'd be stronger, faster, tougher, hit harder and crit more...
Same with my Fighter Honos. He's geared to the teeth with great loot, raid and otherwise, and if he went Barb he'd be a powerhouse.

bobbryan2
02-14-2008, 09:56 AM
You obviously haven't played with the right Barbs or Rangers. ;)

Seriously. Well built Barbs and Str Rangers (not dinky Bow Rangers) kill pure Fighters.

Killcount is not a good gauge for DPS. It just means you got the last swing off. I could build a Sorc just for melee and walk up, smack the creature once as it's about to die and "steal" the kill, thus getting the kill increment. Does that mean that Sorc is contributing more damage? Rarely (discounting spells, of course).

Point is, Ftr THF vs Barb THF, Barb does more damage, has a bigger crit range, higher Str and more HP. Sure, that takes more Cleric-ing, but most elite players are fine with that.

Kill count is a good tool for DPS within a certain context.

Your sorc simply won't get the highest kill count by coming in and swinging. No really... go try it. Because when that guy has 100 hp left... a fighter can simply crit it and it's dead. The sorc would have to hit it 10 more times.

The kill count will gravitate towards the person that's taking off more damage per second.

Now... there are things that invalidate that.... like a barb that always takes 3 seconds to engage in any combat vs the fighter that's there 2 seconds before anyone else.

But if two people have equivalent skill at the game, and use the same tactics... the person doing more damage will take the kill count.

Tanka
02-14-2008, 09:59 AM
Now... there are things that invalidate that.... like a barb that always takes 3 seconds to engage in any combat vs the fighter that's there 2 seconds before anyone else.
No, bad Barbs take 3 seconds to start a fight. A good Barb buffs up on the run and Rages as he's about to start swinging.

Cold_Stele
02-14-2008, 10:27 AM
Now... there are things that invalidate that.... like a barb that always takes 3 seconds to engage in any combat vs the fighter that's there 2 seconds before anyone else.

Surely the Barb's there first cos he's 10% faster and got sprint boost??? Rage activation is really quick (and lasts a looong time). Certainly seems a quicker activation than my poor Ftr's haste boost.

CSFurious
02-14-2008, 03:23 PM
the best way to be a 2-weapon fighter who can take over the game is to roll a dwarf 2-weapon str ranger

i will take that dwarf str ranger over a 2-weapon fighter everytime

as to 2-weapon fighting barbarians, i have no opinion

maddmatt70
02-14-2008, 03:52 PM
the best way to be a 2-weapon fighter who can take over the game is to roll a dwarf 2-weapon str ranger

i will take that dwarf str ranger over a 2-weapon fighter everytime

as to 2-weapon fighting barbarians, i have no opinion

All i have to say is hit points. You can have your couple more kills or whatever, but I will be the last one standing at the end of the fight). Realistically there are basically no rangers who can stand against the pitfiend part 5 on elite whereas a fighter can when wearing axeblock and with enough hp. Since the developers have not put out new good feats a fighter can take the oldie but goodie toughness if need be for those extra hp and keep pace with barbarians and even if a player does not grab those feats a dwarven fighter can have about 85 more hp then a dwarven ranger... If I am running the new raid on hard or elite those dwarven rangers you mentioned better be able to use a bow otherwise your better off taking someone else..

Riekan
02-15-2008, 06:52 AM
Madd,
How many hit points do you have on your fighter?

My Ranger is Dwarf, strength-based (34 with Rage spell) and I usually run around with dual dwarvens, just shy of 400 hit points, without buffs, and a 42 AC with 2 weapons (still need the chattering), and can hit over 50 when I shield up. Would you say that I am lacking?

maddmatt70
02-15-2008, 07:21 AM
Madd,
How many hit points do you have on your fighter?

My Ranger is Dwarf, strength-based (34 with Rage spell) and I usually run around with dual dwarvens, just shy of 400 hit points, without buffs, and a 42 AC with 2 weapons (still need the chattering), and can hit over 50 when I shield up. Would you say that I am lacking?

In the shroud elite part 5 and maybe part 4 400 hp unbuffed will not cut it. You want to be with the madstone and rage spell at a minimum of 500 hp in there but 550+ hp is better. I am currently at 450 hp and with 1 madstone and the rage spell I am in the 520ish range. I have a higher ac with two weapons currently then you, but not by much regardless ac doesn't matter in part 5 becuase he will not miss you. DR still works so get some axeblock armor... When I did it on hard I did not tank but played one of my bards so I can not attest to the specifics for that level of difficulty other then my bard did tank part 4 and was o.k. and had less hp..

The point is fighters have 2 more hp per level, fighter toughness and feats which they can use on more toughness feats so they naturally have more hit points and in this game hit points does matter - they mattered some in the Abbot and they matter in the shroud. These are only the last two raids in the game... General play hit points matter as well..

MrWizard
02-15-2008, 07:51 AM
um, my fighter rolls lots of twenties and has a bloodstone.

oh, and a vorpal.


He confirms every crit, I do not think he has not since he got the stone. (and enhancements for crit too) and feats for improved crit range on most weapons.

I cannot tell if he does more or less versus other classes, but once I get the tools like vorpals and 15-20 crit banishers and stuff, I think the DPS is not important as much.

And if you have great casters in the party, the barbarian will definitely get more dps since he is faster and will get there before the monster is fingered. Whereas my fighter will get there too late to get one swing in.

Killing something very quickly sounds great, but not usually necessary. It is all about tools.

A red named is running around and doing big damage to party...oh no!! There are lots of things everyone can do to stop that with very little dps. Slowburst AND crippling, that will make the red named move at a snails pace. Add destruction to lower AC for the gimp rogue (lol). Solid fog will slow him too. SLow means cannot run as fast and will not fight as quick. Monster goes down even if the party was not that good.

Once you get really good, it is not as fun for everyone else to just watch you kill everything....sometimes it is good to let them sweat it out for the thrill of it, and definitely let others get kill counts as it is fun for them and they are still learning to play better.

Uber means you can, professional means you know when not to.

Jarlaxel
02-17-2008, 10:30 PM
Getting back to the OP'S original question. I took two levels of rogue for evasion and backstab damage. Two levels of rogue was one of the smartest choices I've made. I see a huge difference. I saw no benifit in taking 2 more levels of fighter. Fighters got shafted this level increase especially without the implementation of SWF. On a side note I agree with Tanka, at this point in the game a properly built barbarian will out do a properly built fighter, both played at the same skill level.

Xyfiel
02-18-2008, 10:28 AM
In the shroud elite part 5 and maybe part 4 400 hp unbuffed will not cut it. You want to be with the madstone and rage spell at a minimum of 500 hp in there but 550+ hp is better. I am currently at 450 hp and with 1 madstone and the rage spell I am in the 520ish range. I have a higher ac with two weapons currently then you, but not by much regardless ac doesn't matter in part 5 becuase he will not miss you. DR still works so get some axeblock armor... When I did it on hard I did not tank but played one of my bards so I can not attest to the specifics for that level of difficulty other then my bard did tank part 4 and was o.k. and had less hp..

The point is fighters have 2 more hp per level, fighter toughness and feats which they can use on more toughness feats so they naturally have more hit points and in this game hit points does matter - they mattered some in the Abbot and they matter in the shroud. These are only the last two raids in the game... General play hit points matter as well..

Planning for Shroud Elite part 4-5 is like planning for the cabal trap. You can do it for the challenge, but it doesn't really make that much difference. Do it once for favor, which I can do at L20. If you need to craft stuff, normal will get you to the altar.

Don't get my wrong, my battlemage can tank a lot of stuff, but when it comes down to some bosses I run to the rear and nuke or heal. 99% of the time my 200 hps does me fine, the other 1% I let builds like yours take it and assist you. I am use to playing with low hps, I excel at playing the quick but fragile melee.


Freebee, it has always been my belief that pure fighter was a waste in pnp unless you had something in particular you was aiming for. Compare a 8fighter/12ranger to a 20 fighter. 6 more feats and up to 24 hps compared to spells, evasion, animal companion, 4 specific feats, favored enemies, and better saves. Plan out 17-20 now, clearly barb/bard is out of the picture. Do you wear light armor and can make use of evasion? Monk 2 for evasion and +3 saves? Don't see taking some caster levels as beneficial. 2 Ranger for bow str and rapid shot? 2 more paladin for fear/disease immune and divine grace?

Alizar
02-18-2008, 11:27 PM
You guys have only one thing on your mind and thats dps/kill count. I believe the best melee companion is the one who takes out the mobs most efficiently. Effeciency in the kill means most dps/kills per hp loss. Everyone is talking about how much faster stronger etc a barb is but no one factors in ac. The dps that a fighter can do with his high ac is gravy. I love playing self sufficient classes and from what I've seen barbs are not one of them. They are mana sinks and require a clerics full attention. If the party has to wait a few seconds longer for the fighter to finish off the mob then so be it...no big deal.