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GlassCannon
02-10-2008, 04:33 AM
Clearly this community, with the very recent fiascos abounding on the forum system, needs Player Administrators graced with Moderator status to ... wipe the bottoms of the community members after all these infantile assaults on our daily lives.

It's getting out of hand. They wait until the Authority is out the door and do as they please, making the place a wholly intolerable environ to inhabit for any period of time with any seriousness.

The continued permittal of certain threads to thrive today, Feb 9th, is a sign that this forum needs more active moderation.

Ghoste
02-10-2008, 05:04 AM
Agreed. It has been a long standing issue with the forums for people to wait until Friday evening or Saturday morning to post either really offensive threads, or rants about how they got disciplined in game for a naming violation, or foul language, or anything else that would get deleted in an hour or so.

Having said that, I'm definitely not the one to be relied upon to keep a neutral stance or a cool head when these threads pop up.

Hendrik
02-10-2008, 09:24 AM
Good idea.

One I can get behind.

cdbd3rd
02-10-2008, 09:29 AM
EEsh. Only if they have enough of a sense of humor that they don't go "moderating" mas extremis. (or something like that...)

woodspider
02-10-2008, 09:52 AM
There only two or three people I would trust to moderate these forums, and highly doubt they would take on the job. so I would have to say no.

Let me give you two of the three, Kargon and MT. If you could get those two to do it, then I would be all for it!

Lorien_the_First_One
02-10-2008, 10:05 AM
There only two or three people I would trust to moderate these forums, and highly doubt they would take on the job. so I would have to say no.

Let me give you two of the three, Kargon and MT. If you could get those two to do it, then I would be all for it!

Ah man, now you make me wonder who the third is....

Emili
02-10-2008, 10:12 AM
There only two or three people I would trust to moderate these forums, and highly doubt they would take on the job. so I would have to say no.

Let me give you two of the three, Kargon and MT. If you could get those two to do it, then I would be all for it!

Aye, I trust those two to be level headed... but all in all finding enough people who watch the forums enough and are un-bias would be a task unto itself. Not to mention empowering individuals outside of Turbine derives other possible consequences and issues. It is Turbine's property they have ownership so they can make any call because they bear responsibility, seeking player base (outsiders) to handle things on thier behalf leads to the possiblity of openning another can of worms.

hennebux
02-10-2008, 10:18 AM
I personally do not think that is the way to go.The quickest way to corrupt a player and forum monkey is to give them a badge and tell them they are the law.Also players already do moderate themselves, either through social mores or by hitting the report button.As an example when Xoriat went to the Thelanis. It was like the Hatfields and the McCoy's.The report button got so overly and completely abused in the beginning, people got banned or quit because their views were foreign and caused endless friction.Now you can no longer post achievements in the server forum and even have a tough time getting a farewell note out if you decide to leave the game.People imho need to get used the idea that there are many people different than you, with many different views.Try to be mature when you see annoying or obnoxious posts or threads.Understand that reaction to said behavior is probably what that person wants more than anything.Chose your response wisely.

Turial
02-10-2008, 10:30 AM
Ah man, now you make me wonder who the third is....

Cupcake!!

cdbd3rd
02-10-2008, 10:35 AM
Cupcake!!


but...

but...

...she has no title!

:p

(just fwiw, I know she wouldn't take that job - wouldn't like the friction it would cause.)

Lorien_the_First_One
02-10-2008, 12:31 PM
Cupcake!!


(just fwiw, I know she wouldn't take that job - wouldn't like the friction it would cause.)

lol that's so true,she's so sensitive... Hey Cup, you think we should boot Zef again?

Cayrie
02-10-2008, 12:39 PM
While I think you have all the right intentions, I really don't think this is the way to go. It's hard enough when Turbine mods make a decision that you feel is unfair. It would be doubly hard on the community as a whole if a player moderator did the same.

Emili
02-10-2008, 12:46 PM
While I think you have all the right intentions, I really don't think this is the way to go. It's hard enough when Turbine mods make a decision that you feel is unfair. It would be doubly hard on the community as a whole if a player moderator did the same.

I tend to agree, as some people are not as easy going or level headed as others. Part of many problems stem from the written word being taken out of context quite often... then you have those who draw conclusions and let emotions fly. As a whole I think the community at large to be a quite mature and reasonable one. There really are no reasons to get emotionally involved or take stress over any forum post as afterall it really should have no bering as to who you are or what you do in real life. It's just a forum.

Daegyl
02-10-2008, 12:59 PM
Most of the problems in forums come down to miscommunication and empowering anonimity. When two people talk to each other in person, the words they speak are only 15% of the real message. Body language, inflection, emphasis, and other factors play a much larger role in what someone is really saying. In written form, readers tend to insert that other 85% of the real message depending on their own particular mood. If they're feelin defensive, then they'll interpret something as an attack. It all reels out of control, as we all have seen... recently might I add. And then throw in the fact that people are sitting in the comfort of their own home with their real identity hidden. It's a catalyst for misbehavior. If the possibility that another forum member could show up at your door and beat you senseless for what you've said, then this community would be missing quite a few members. Not saying that I want the job as a moderator, I don't really have the time.

MysticTheurge
02-10-2008, 01:29 PM
While I appreciate the vote of confidence from people, I don't think I'd trust myself to be level-headed enough to moderate the forums.

There are some people who can just rile me up. And there are certainly times when I feel something violates forum guidelines, but the moderators seem to disagree.

I think sticking with the real moderators is the way to go. But maybe just pay them a bit extra to check in mid-day Saturday. They wouldn't even need to read the forums, just check for reported posts.

That, and make the penalties for doing really dumb stuff when "the cat's away" a bit harsher.

Dane_McArdy
02-10-2008, 01:34 PM
How about everyone moderate themselves, like the adults they should be? It's easy.

When you have a reaction like this: Ooooo that post makes me so mad! follow it up with. But I'm going to wait 15 minutes before repling. And then in 20 minutes, see if you still care.

Try asking yourself, what will your reply do? Win an arguement on the intrawebz? You really think you can change someones point of view here? And when you don't get that feeling of satisfaction of winning, then what? Your just going to be madder.

Start with yourself, and see how your point of view changes when you stop giving in to the desire to rip into each other over entertainment.

MysticTheurge
02-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Win an arguement on the intrawebz?

I win arguements on the intrawebz all the timez!

Dane_McArdy
02-10-2008, 01:38 PM
I win arguements on the intrawebz all the timez!

Which they say is like winning the Special Olympics you know. Not very fair to the Special Olympics which serves more purpose then 99.8% of the intrawebz.

Daegyl
02-10-2008, 01:40 PM
Even Turbine's moderators aren't Ghandi. It isn't necessarily about being the epitome of equality, level-headedness, and compassion. It is about being responsible for your actions. A player moderator would still be held responsible if their power goes to their head. Making a mistake and letting your emotions get the better of you once and a while is human, but recognizing that you (and other people) are human too is far more important than being unbiased.

Invalid_86
02-10-2008, 06:26 PM
Staff moderators are the way to go.

As players we should all be equals on the forums.

Nevthial
02-10-2008, 09:29 PM
Agreed. It could work.

GlassCannon
02-10-2008, 10:02 PM
Even Turbine's moderators aren't Ghandi. It isn't necessarily about being the epitome of equality, level-headedness, and compassion. It is about being responsible for your actions. A player moderator would still be held responsible if their power goes to their head. Making a mistake and letting your emotions get the better of you once and a while is human, but recognizing that you (and other people) are human too is far more important than being unbiased.

The dominant issue lies in stability of access, and complete availability.

Yesterday's fiasco showed that even the staff takes breaks(much deserved at that). The naughty children wait until the authorities are gone to act up and lash out, as illustrated(A "You had to be there" kind of thing). A Player Moderator that trolls the forums quite frequently, and is checked up on by the staff periodically(Probationary Moderator Powers) to make sure said authority is being used properly, would be a boon to this chaotic and serious community.

MysticTheurge
02-10-2008, 10:29 PM
I had a thought. This might work if you gave some player "moderators" the ability to freeze and hide a thread until it could be reviewed monday morning.

That way there aren't players giving out infractions or anything, but they can stop inappropriate stuff happening over the weekend. Then, if the moderators think it's fine, they can "release" it again on monday.

Tanka
02-10-2008, 10:50 PM
I had a thought. This might work if you gave some player "moderators" the ability to freeze and hide a thread until it could be reviewed monday morning.

That way there aren't players giving out infractions or anything, but they can stop inappropriate stuff happening over the weekend. Then, if the moderators think it's fine, they can "release" it again on monday.
Problem with that is there are issues then where people think they're being targetted or (le gasp!) censored (which is apparently against this forum's constitution. Which I didn't know it had).

Staff moderation is, unfortunately, the best idea. There just need to be more moderators (and they don't even have to be other monstrous names -- it could just be Mod_ then First Initial and Last Name, or some other combination.

I've moderated and administrated forums before, and currently (tri-)administrate my guild's forums, and administration of a forum like this is really difficult. It takes the ability to remain neutral and treat every individual fairly, taking into account their past history.

It's not something your everyday user can do, and honestly not a lot of actual moderators are ever truly successful at (not snarking the mods here, just a general view of most forums I go to).

MysticTheurge
02-10-2008, 10:55 PM
Problem with that is there are issues then where people think they're being targetted or (le gasp!) censored

Which is why I think a "freeze pending review" system could work.

If you get a player-moderator who's freezing too many things that shouldn't be, then you remove their freezing privileges. Otherwise, it's really still the staff-moderators doing all the moderating, they just don't have to be doing it on the weekends.

Invalid_86
02-10-2008, 11:01 PM
Another player should not be able to decide what threads need freezing. It's not up to us. We are all equal here.

Tanka
02-10-2008, 11:05 PM
Which is why I think a "freeze pending review" system could work.

If you get a player-moderator who's freezing too many things that shouldn't be, then you remove their freezing privileges. Otherwise, it's really still the staff-moderators doing all the moderating, they just don't have to be doing it on the weekends.
It isn't even if it's "too many freezes in X hours." It's "if Y user posts Z threads and each of them are 'WHERE DID MY THREAD GO TURBINE IS CENSORING ME ***'", then that becomes more than problematic, because it's both spam and becomes unpopular that threads just keep on disappearing over and over again.

There just needs to be moderators on during the weekends. I understand that having a family/social life is a great thing on the weekends, but on an MMO's forums, it's almost a requirement now that there be someone on hand who can read reported posts/threads and respond accordingly (either by doing nothing, assigning points, straight up locking the thread or even going as far as banning the problematic user).

If there's no moderation until someone decides to check their work e-mail for once, it becomes more of an issue that we seem to be seeing right now -- threads put up around 7 PM EST on a Friday and not getting a proper looksee until late Sunday or early Monday.

Even "freezing powers" can be helpful, yes, but the problem, again, comes from the above. What happens when one user is constantly causing problems? And what happens if that user is making wide-range attacks in other more useful and good topics just to get them frozen?

MysticTheurge
02-10-2008, 11:16 PM
Even "freezing powers" can be helpful, yes, but the problem, again, comes from the above. What happens when one user is constantly causing problems? And what happens if that user is making wide-range attacks in other more useful and good topics just to get them frozen?

Hmm, I'm not suggesting everyone should have them.

Just a sort of small set of player moderators, selected from the more responsible members of the forums.

But rather than having them be full moderators (which is sort of what I was getting from the OP's suggestion) they'd only be able to "freeze" threads overnight/over the weekend.

With a smaller set of people, it's easier to police who's using their powers wisely and who's abusing them.

Hvymetal
02-11-2008, 06:54 AM
Most likely the ones I would trust most for the job wouldn't want it......

Tanka
02-11-2008, 07:28 AM
Hmm, I'm not suggesting everyone should have them.

Just a sort of small set of player moderators, selected from the more responsible members of the forums.

But rather than having them be full moderators (which is sort of what I was getting from the OP's suggestion) they'd only be able to "freeze" threads overnight/over the weekend.

With a smaller set of people, it's easier to police who's using their powers wisely and who's abusing them.
I may not be typing verbosely enough, so let me try again.

What happens when one user is constantly spamming other threads that were having good, valid discussions without flaming or namecalling or anything else against the CoC, just to get it frozen so that the flaming is preemptively stopped? A new form of trolling happens, one which the player-mods can't stop and just hope a full mod gets on shortly to deal with him before he ends up doing that to every thread in the forum.

It may be that the player-mods do a bang-up job. However, the above situation is bound to begin occurring at some point, if only because people will do things if only to provoke a reaction from other users in an attempt to get them infraction points and/or banned.

Dane_McArdy
02-11-2008, 07:51 AM
Most likely the ones I would trust most for the job wouldn't want it......

Exactly. And the first to say, I'll do it, couldn't be trusted to be unbiased.

Tanka
02-11-2008, 07:56 AM
Exactly. And the first to say, I'll do it, couldn't be trusted to be unbiased.
I certainly wouldn't expect more moderator positions to be volunteer positions, not in an MMO forum at least.

Then again, something like with Tolero would occur. She can't do anything she used to, in regards to forum and game events. It'd really put a downer on the situation if a favorite poster had to disappear because they were hired by Turbine to moderate the forums.

Daegyl
02-11-2008, 09:02 AM
I think what we really need is someone IT savy enough to track people down to their IP and subsequently their street address. Then have pictures of them and/or their wife and kids taken while they're sleeping. Post them in the forums with a warning. Might get more people to shut up.



... ah.. there.. now I don't have to worry about being volunteered as a moderator. I'm clearly unstable. :rolleyes:

lostinjapan
02-11-2008, 09:35 AM
Exactly. And the first to say, I'll do it, couldn't be trusted to be unbiased.

QFT

To the OP's suggestion I give an emphatic and resounding -no-.

Yaga_Nub
02-11-2008, 09:43 AM
How about everyone moderate themselves, like the adults they should be? It's easy.

When you have a reaction like this: Ooooo that post makes me so mad! follow it up with. But I'm going to wait 15 minutes before repling. And then in 20 minutes, see if you still care.

Try asking yourself, what will your reply do? Win an arguement on the intrawebz? You really think you can change someones point of view here? And when you don't get that feeling of satisfaction of winning, then what? Your just going to be madder.

Start with yourself, and see how your point of view changes when you stop giving in to the desire to rip into each other over entertainment.

The only problem I see with that statement Dane is that not everyone on these forums is actually an adult. Plus with the permissive society that has become pervasive in the US, even most 18 to 25 years old are still treated like children so they act like children.

I do agree though, please try to moderate yourself if you can.

Even though MT has already posted that he wouldn't like to do it if offered, I would have voted against him being a mod if asked. He's gotten mean lately. :)

akla_thornfist
02-11-2008, 09:45 AM
only turbine staff can moderate these forums

Sambvca
02-11-2008, 09:47 AM
How about under thread tools a "report" button. X number of reports closes the thread?

Arkat
02-11-2008, 09:49 AM
Well, if they ever asked for volunteers, I'd volunteer.

Among my friends, I am known for my fairness. I've had previous forum (ok, it was a small one) moderating experience as well and, to the best of my knowledge, I received no complaints about how I did the job.

One thing that must absolutely be in place if a player were to be given moderating privileges, would be an objective system that would fairly evaluate how said player performed his/her moderating duties.

KoboldKiller
02-11-2008, 10:12 AM
I'll do it.

/Looks for "Close all threads but KoboldKiller's" button.:D

Cupcake
02-11-2008, 11:07 AM
I had a thought. This might work if you gave some player "moderators" the ability to freeze and hide a thread until it could be reviewed monday morning.

That way there aren't players giving out infractions or anything, but they can stop inappropriate stuff happening over the weekend. Then, if the moderators think it's fine, they can "release" it again on monday.

I like this idea.

I don't go to the forums over the weekend so obviously I have missed something.

But I definitely like your idea MT.

lostinjapan
02-11-2008, 07:42 PM
[off-topic]Sambvca your signature is awesome! :P[/off-topic]

captain1z
02-11-2008, 08:34 PM
Which is why I think a "freeze pending review" system could work.

If you get a player-moderator who's freezing too many things that shouldn't be, then you remove their freezing privileges. Otherwise, it's really still the staff-moderators doing all the moderating, they just don't have to be doing it on the weekends.

Moderation can be a huge responsibility...... and if for instance I was given this ability it might ruin my experiance as a player.

Players will always quest another players judgement .... even if he follows the letter of the law.

Then they resent you for it and every post you decide to make as a player gets dipped in lamp oil before you click the post button.

Moderation is done by "trained professionals" please dont try it at home.

GlassCannon
02-11-2008, 08:50 PM
Hmm, I'm not suggesting everyone should have them.

Just a sort of small set of player moderators, selected from the more responsible members of the forums.

But rather than having them be full moderators (which is sort of what I was getting from the OP's suggestion) they'd only be able to "freeze" threads overnight/over the weekend.

With a smaller set of people, it's easier to police who's using their powers wisely and who's abusing them.

This is basically what I had in mind but I commonly have trouble breaking it down for the peoples.

Tanka
02-11-2008, 09:44 PM
Moderation is done by "trained professionals" please dont try it at home.
Actually, it usually isn't. It's done by everyday people like you and me.

I mean, technically, we should be moderating ourselves by not responding to trollish threads/posters.

GlassCannon
02-12-2008, 01:42 AM
Actually, it usually isn't. It's done by everyday people like you and me.

I mean, technically, we should be moderating ourselves by not responding to trollish threads/posters.

You mean... excercising tact and self-control??:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Not possible :p

HumanJHawkins
02-12-2008, 04:56 AM
Clearly this community, with the very recent fiascos abounding on the forum system, needs Player Administrators graced with Moderator status to ... wipe the bottoms of the community members after all these infantile assaults on our daily lives.

It's getting out of hand. They wait until the Authority is out the door and do as they please, making the place a wholly intolerable environ to inhabit for any period of time with any seriousness.

The continued permittal of certain threads to thrive today, Feb 9th, is a sign that this forum needs more active moderation.

I don't get you people... You that call for censorship... Have you ever used USENET? It is a totally unregulated space. But serious topics do just fine there. There are certain rules that make moderators unnecessary (and in fact counterproductive, as they clearly already are here).

1) If a topic offends you, go on to the next one. Problem solved.
2) If a troll posts in your serious thread, ignore it. If you don't ignore it, then you must be interested. If you are interested, then the person has every right to speak. So where is the problem?
3) Well... there's the "Hitler Rule", but that hasn't been an issue here... (No... It's not a form of censorship relating to hate groups... Google for it if you are interested.)

In short, be mature enough to recognize that immaturity exists. And not try to hammer it into submission, because that only fuels it. Let fools speak so that they can be corrected or simply to let them prove themselves fools so the rest can learn from their foolishness before spouting out some of their own.

HumanJHawkins
02-12-2008, 05:05 AM
3) Well... there's the "Hitler Rule", but that hasn't been an issue here... (No... It's not a form of censorship relating to hate groups... Google for it if you are interested.)
Ok... so googling for that doesn't turn up clear answers easily, so I'll copy the best definition I have heard here:

The Law is generally used on Usenet as an indicator of whether a
thread has gone on too long, who's playing fair and who's just slinging
mud, and who finally gets to "win" the discussion. It has, over time,
become the closest thing to an impartial moderator that Usenet can get.

So, what this means in practical terms:

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.
This was from a link on wikipedia at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Hvymetal
02-12-2008, 06:46 AM
Actually, it usually isn't. It's done by everyday people like you and me.

I mean, technically, we should be moderating ourselves by not responding to trollish threads/posters.But.... but..... then I'd have to throw my popcorn away:(

Tanka
02-12-2008, 07:20 AM
But.... but..... then I'd have to throw my popcorn away:(
Nah, you can enjoy your popcorn. Just don't post that in a thread about it just to irritate the posters involved in the wannabe flamewar.

Making that kind of statement is just as antagonizing as any other post can be.

Quarion
02-12-2008, 11:08 AM
Thanks for your feedback!

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that we have a system in place to help avoid threads like the ones in question. Each post has a little icon that looks like this:http://ddoimages.turbine.com/forums/images/buttons/blue/report.gif

If you come across any post which you feel violates the forum guidelines, you can click that icon, and dispatch a report to a forum moderator for prompt review. Unfortunately, sending PM's rarely reach moderators in time, and posting threads about such problems never help the situation could be against the forum guidelines.

As a team, it is impossible for us to read every single post on the forums to make sure that it is acceptable, and thats why we also depend on our community members to let us know when a thread or post needs attention.

Happy gaming!
-Quarion