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View Full Version : Making Rogue Sneak Attack Toggleable



Sydril
02-08-2008, 08:13 AM
The title says it all.

Rangers got it for improved precise shot.

Rogues should have it for sneak attack.

When you are trying to banish or vorpal or just not draw aggro and do so much damage you should have the option of not sneak attacking. I really enjoy the new content a lot, but running the spider quest last night I could barely attack anything for fear of killing them so I just sat around while the sorcerers fingered everything. Meanwhile in the eladrin stronghold I died 4 times because no one else in the party could do anywhere near as much damage as me to the whirling displaced elves. I would have much preferred to just concentrate on vorpaling or debuffing but all I got was aggro and beatdown from light ray spam.

From what I can tell rangers got the toggle because they were drawing too much aggro and could not control their tactics. Why do rogues continue to get so little dev love? Having tactical variety is something that I think should be encouraged, especially in such an oft maligned class like the rogue.

Olaff
02-08-2008, 08:21 AM
Invest in Bluff.

Invest in Diplomacy.

Wait for tanks to draw aggro.

The difference between IPS and Sneak Attack is that (a) IPS is not a class-defining feature for Rangers, but Sneak Attack is for rogues; (b) IPS amounts to an area-effect attack, while Sneak Attack only works on one critter at a time; and (c) IPS is an "upgrade" to Precise Shot which only affects one target at a time, with no fear of hitting anything in front of that target. If IPS were not toggleable, Precise Shot would never work, because you would always hit everything between you and the target you want to hit, instead of just your intended target.

oronisi
02-08-2008, 08:29 AM
Invest in Bluff.

You mean diplomacy. And I'd say if you really just want to debuff things, roll a dex ranger. Splash 1 level of rogue and now you have a non-sneak attacking rogue that can cast barkskin and gets your 2 weapon fighting feats for free.

Olaff
02-08-2008, 08:35 AM
You mean diplomacy. And I'd say if you really just want to debuff things, roll a dex ranger. Splash 1 level of rogue and now you have a non-sneak attacking rogue that can cast barkskin and gets your 2 weapon fighting feats for free.

No, I mean Bluff. Having a high bluff improves your chances to land additional Sneak Attacks against a creature whose attention you've already drawn. Diplomacy is good too, though, since it helps shift the targets attention elsewhere.

EDIT: Bluff is a toggleable skill, though, so you have to remember to use it on critters for it to work.

aurus33
02-08-2008, 09:10 AM
Invest in Bluff.

Invest in Diplomacy.

Wait for tanks to draw aggro.

The difference between IPS and Sneak Attack is that (a) IPS is not a class-defining feature for Rangers, but Sneak Attack is for rogues; (b) IPS amounts to an area-effect attack, while Sneak Attack only works on one critter at a time; and (c) IPS is an "upgrade" to Precise Shot which only affects one target at a time, with no fear of hitting anything in front of that target. If IPS were not toggleable, Precise Shot would never work, because you would always hit everything between you and the target you want to hit, instead of just your intended target.

While I agree with what you said I gotta support the OP, but sneak attack is an attack to vital/weak points, you can as well decide not to.

I used to have a pure rogue back when level cap was 14, with only the of extra dices of sneak attacks were enough to get the aggro back even with subtle backstabber, heck... even with diplomacy, the cooldown time is muuch longer than a couple swings and, like before I ended up having aggro again.

It would be nice for Sneak attack to be an on/off.

In_Like_Flynn
02-08-2008, 09:17 AM
Invest in Bluff. Invest in Diplomacy. Wait for tanks to draw aggro.I agree. Use strategy.

ViVid7th
02-08-2008, 09:36 AM
Usage of the feat Precision halves base weapon damage, bonuses from Str and Sneak attack. If you are building a Rogue with debuffing in mind, it is a great feat that lowers your Damage Curve allowing you to stay closer to your over curve. It will also cause you to hit more, so debuff more. If you are using proc on crit effects, naturally you should be using his crit range weapons anyways so it will help there as well (Anything below a 20 isn't an autohit even if it is in the weapon's crit range.)

Sydril
02-08-2008, 09:43 AM
I have max ranks in bluff. its useless. if you actually think that using bluff in combat is useful you have no idea what is going on in high level content. 1 sneak attack is nothing in damage. you need deception or sirocco to land killing damage. Diplomacy is not bad, but I don't use it.

Ask yourself this: Why did they make improved precise shot toggleable?

For those of you that actually play D&D theres something called subdual damage. A rogue should be able to choose whether he is actively seeking sneak attack damage or not.

its simple tactics.

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 09:51 AM
Invest in Bluff.

Invest in Diplomacy.

Wait for tanks to draw aggro.


I agree. Use strategy.

I'm not sure what these responses have to do with the OP.

Like IPS, a rogue should be able to decide whether he wants to deal extra damage via sneak attack or not. That's all there really is to it.

Olaff
02-08-2008, 09:59 AM
I have max ranks in bluff. its useless. if you actually think that using bluff in combat is useful you have no idea what is going on in high level content. 1 sneak attack is nothing in damage. you need deception or sirocco to land killing damage. Diplomacy is not bad, but I don't use it.

Actually you're right, I have no idea how Bluff plays out in high-end gameplay. I know what's it's *supposed* to do - I realize full well that the two are not necessarily the same. I do know, though, that when using Bluffing weapons you get extra sneak attacks.


Ask yourself this: Why did they make improved precise shot toggleable?

Already answered this.



For those of you that actually play D&D theres something called subdual damage. A rogue should be able to choose whether he is actively seeking sneak attack damage or not.

its simple tactics.

Subdual damage would be great to see in-game. Problem is, it'd need to be a toggle itself, and it shouldn't be rogue-only, because if memory serves anyone could choose to do subdual damage instead of normal damage.

As noted above, try the Precision feat. :)

Why is that all there is to it, MT?

DareDelvis
02-08-2008, 09:59 AM
The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it :o "

Freeman
02-08-2008, 10:05 AM
The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it :o "

But, you didn't really need that kidney, did you? I know a guy that will give you a really good price for one of those ;)

Seriously though, I wouldn't have any problem with having sneak attack be on a toggle. It would be convenient for when those pesky sorcs can't keep aggro off of me with their weak little firewalls :p

jjflanigan
02-08-2008, 10:06 AM
The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it :o "

A lot of the rogues I play with don't have any self-control, so that seems like a perfectly reasonable thought...

Agreed that it should be a toggle, though. If you don't want to do the sneak attack, you should be able to just attack normally.

QuantumFX
02-08-2008, 10:07 AM
Ask yourself this: Why did they make improved precise shot toggleable?

Because Rangers were given 2 feats and only got the benefits of one of them. This isn't just for rangers either, it applies to anyone who's taken the Precise Shot/Improved Precise Shot feat chain.

Turial
02-08-2008, 10:07 AM
The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it :o "

Kinda sounds like Belkar from OoTS. But I would be all for a toggle to do sneak attacks if you are a rogue or skip them if you choose. In pnp one generally never encounters a time where you want to turn off sneak attacks because an "intelligent" DM is controling creatures rather then a scripted "intelligence" that works off of a threat/hate meter.

oronisi
02-08-2008, 10:14 AM
A lot of the rogues I play with don't have any self-control, so that seems like a perfectly reasonable thought...

Agreed that it should be a toggle, though. If you don't want to do the sneak attack, you should be able to just attack normally.

But what about someone like me that never wants to worry about a toggle because I want it always on? Do I need to pull yet another icon on my toolbar and make sure it's enabled every time I play?

Sydril
02-08-2008, 10:18 AM
But what about someone like me that never wants to worry about a toggle because I want it always on? Do I need to pull yet another icon on my toolbar and make sure it's enabled every time I play?

Um. Default on.

the toggle would be to disable it.

Laith
02-08-2008, 10:22 AM
But what about someone like me that never wants to worry about a toggle because I want it always on? Do I need to pull yet another icon on my toolbar and make sure it's enabled every time I play?
seriously? is this really a reason to shoot down a good idea that would give your rogue a completely new tactical option?

toggles don't toggle themselves on death/logout anymore. once it's on, it'll always be on: just like IPS. It wouldn't need to be on your hotbar if you didn't want to reserve space for it: just like IPS.

In_Like_Flynn
02-08-2008, 11:11 AM
Dear DDO Developers: Please don't let players "should-be-able-to" this game to death.

Sydril
02-08-2008, 11:25 AM
Dear DDO Developers: Please don't let players "should-be-able-to" this game to death.

What? Thats like saying:

Dear DDO Developers: Please don't let players offer ideas for improving gameplay. Why is there even a forum entitled "DDO Development Discussion"

Think about what you're saying. Would you say that about an idea you thought was good?

aurus33
02-08-2008, 12:40 PM
Dear DDO Developers: Please don't let players "should-be-able-to" this game to death.

*sigh*...

oronisi
02-08-2008, 01:04 PM
seriously? is this really a reason to shoot down a good idea that would give your rogue a completely new tactical option?

toggles don't toggle themselves on death/logout anymore. once it's on, it'll always be on: just like IPS. It wouldn't need to be on your hotbar if you didn't want to reserve space for it: just like IPS.

Seriously, I don't trust any of those 'shouldnt toggle on death/logout' or 'shouldnt _____'. I have attack on a toolbar slot for all of my characters to be able to toggle auto attack on or off. Things like that have a way of toggling themselves when you least expect it, and if you don't have it on your toolbar, you'll have one heck of a time trying to fix it in the middle of combat. I've played PnP, DnD video games from the TSR greats, original NWN (on AOL), all the way through to DDO. I have NEVER ONCE wanted to deny a character his sneak (backstab if we are going back now) damage. So now why should it all the sudden be so needed? If you really want to be able to throttle your damage....you can throttle your damage! You have skills, enhancements, items, and feats that can all be used to manage your aggro on top of a simple but effective playstyle of regulating your attacks instead of swinging as fast as possible. If that isn't enough for you, you can always roll a dex fighter or ranger and splash rogue just like everybody else does.

I just see ample opportunity to meet these needs without requiring additional functionality within the game.

Cap_Man
02-08-2008, 01:29 PM
If Sneak Attack could be toggled off, would that also 'turn off' any of the sneak attack enhancements (like SA Accuracy, SA Damage, Subtle Backstabber, etc). How would you see this affecting 'Backstabbing' weapons? :confused:

Not disagreeing with the OP just wondering how it would affect some of the other sneak attack related features of the game. The devil is in the details. :rolleyes:

I use 'precision' when I want to cut down on my damage output while using stat damagers, banishers etc. ;)

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 02:22 PM
Seriously, I don't trust any of those 'shouldnt toggle on death/logout' or 'shouldnt _____'. I have attack on a toolbar slot for all of my characters to be able to toggle auto attack on or off.

Well there's your extra slot right there.

Auto-attack is now on the bar that shows your HP/SPs and can be toggled on and off from there.

It's also something of an oddity since there are other methods (besides clicking it on the hotbar) to turn it on.

Cambo
03-01-2008, 08:44 PM
Well there's your extra slot right there.

Auto-attack is now on the bar that shows your HP/SPs and can be toggled on and off from there.

It's also something of an oddity since there are other methods (besides clicking it on the hotbar) to turn it on.


if you use the toggle on the helath bar does it show you if its on or off...i know the toggle is there but last time i tried it i still had to look at the tool bar to see which way i toggled it.

And yes pelase make sneak attack toggle. I think I requested this when level cap was 10 but we know those posts are lon gone....

Tactics are fine...but i have taken aggro off the main tank on occasison with a shield and cursespewing dagger (+1) due to sneak attack...all I wanted to do was hit him and curse him...and I got crunched. Let a lone dual weilding with GTWF and banishing/smiting rapiers with the extra crit range.

MysticTheurge
03-02-2008, 01:08 AM
if you use the toggle on the helath bar does it show you if its on or off...i know the toggle is there but last time i tried it i still had to look at the tool bar to see which way i toggled it.

It seems a bit buggy, but sort of.

When I have something targeted, it shows on/off properly. With nothing targeted, it looks as though autoattack is off, even if it's really on.

DNDJESS
03-02-2008, 01:14 AM
I really don't see the point of disabling your sneak attack. Remember, along with losing the damage, you're also losing the bonus to-hit that comes with sneak attacking.

If your goal is a high to-hit bonus and low aggro, there are several options:

-subtle backstabbing
-low strength, high dex, and weapon finesse
-precision feat

If you go with all 3, you can hit pretty much every time, and won't draw much aggro.

Cambo
03-02-2008, 08:48 AM
I really don't see the point of disabling your sneak attack. Remember, along with losing the damage, you're also losing the bonus to-hit that comes with sneak attacking.

If your goal is a high to-hit bonus and low aggro, there are several options:

-subtle backstabbing
-low strength, high dex, and weapon finesse
-precision feat

If you go with all 3, you can hit pretty much every time, and won't draw much aggro.

I have all of the above and often take agro from our guild paladin or fighters..(not Barbs so much)

DNDJESS
03-02-2008, 09:13 AM
I have all of the above and often take agro from our guild paladin or fighters..(not Barbs so much)

Even if you could turn off backstabbing, there is no guarantee that you will never get aggro in any situation. If you're getting aggro regularly and you have all of the above that I listed, the problem is either with you attacking mobs that the warriors and paladins aren't, or your guild has awfully weak paladins and warriors.

BlueLightBandit
03-02-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm not sure what these responses have to do with the OP.

Like IPS, a rogue should be able to decide whether he wants to deal extra damage via sneak attack or not. That's all there really is to it.

Maybe, but the solution already given to us by the devs is:

"If you don't want to use sneak attack on your rogue, don't swing your weapon"

Better yet, use that charisma thing and put some points into intimidate, grab aggro, and THEN swing away. Your sneak attack bonuses will be gone.

Nobody said playing a rogue was easy. It's a class with a lot of "nuances." The only reason I could possibly think of to NOT use the sneak attack bonuses would be NOT grab aggro. Diplomacy takes care of this, but you have to pay attention to the mobs and to the damage you're doing to know when to use it.

Basically, DDO is all about "Kill them before they kill you." That being said, leave sneak attack alone, and kill things. If your rogue draws aggro... use intimidate. No dev intervention needed.

If your rogue has a higher intel score than your player, there's not much the devs can do to fix that, is there? Any rogue with an intel of 10 would know when to attack and when not to, when to use diplomacy and when not to. Why can't your player? (IIRC an intel score of 10 roughly equates to a 100 IQ... right?)

DNDJESS
03-02-2008, 10:45 AM
If your rogue draws aggro... use intimidate. No dev intervention needed.

So if you're drawing too much aggro.......draw more aggro?

Luthen
03-02-2008, 11:34 AM
The title says it all.

Rangers got it for improved precise shot.

Rogues should have it for sneak attack.

When you are trying to banish or vorpal or just not draw aggro and do so much damage you should have the option of not sneak attacking. I really enjoy the new content a lot, but running the spider quest last night I could barely attack anything for fear of killing them so I just sat around while the sorcerers fingered everything. Meanwhile in the eladrin stronghold I died 4 times because no one else in the party could do anywhere near as much damage as me to the whirling displaced elves. I would have much preferred to just concentrate on vorpaling or debuffing but all I got was aggro and beatdown from light ray spam.

From what I can tell rangers got the toggle because they were drawing too much aggro and could not control their tactics. Why do rogues continue to get so little dev love? Having tactical variety is something that I think should be encouraged, especially in such an oft maligned class like the rogue.

Diplomacy is your friend. Learn it. Use it. Love it!!:D