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View Full Version : A change in the exotic Repeater feat?!



Bloodyfury
02-07-2008, 07:32 PM
As a huge repeater fan, I frequently get questions from players about these, as I've a couple repeater builds that I'm playing often.

The most asked question is probly: should I take light or heavy? :rolleyes:

Heavy (1d10) is only d2 more damage than Light ones (1d8), which means 1 extra dmg point in average... nothing crazy :p So I answer most of the time: it depends if you already own some good ones in light or heavy, as simple, as there isn't a big difference in base damage.

As I know so many people hate range combat/range players, I was thinking about a way that would help more people to test this exotic weapon, which is often underestimated and that can provide so much fun ;) But most people that are just a little bit interested never even try it because they find it hard to get enough good repeaters in the same category (light or heavy). And needless to say the drop rate for these are really rare, you need to buy them on the AH mostly or trade for them.

You must spend a feat to be able to use this exotic weapon, but you have to choose if it is the light or heavy ones you're gonna use. These repeating crossbows require special training to be able to reload fast and properly as it is a complex mechanism (meh! lol).

What I find weird is, the ONLY difference between light and heavy repeaters are: base damage and the weight. So thinking about it, I just found very illogical that if you spent a feat to know how to use/reload this weapon properly (let's say light ones), you can't do the same with the heavy ones... just because they weight 4 more pounds? lmao :p

I mean... when you get martial weapons, you get the shortswords and the longswords proficiency? Do you need some more special training because the LS is longer than the SS? :rolleyes: We get the shortbows AND the longbows? Light picks AND heavy picks? You get the point :D

So why can't we just take an exotic feat call "Repeaters" that would allow the use of both light and heavy ones? Once you learn how to reload these thing, you shouldn't need another feat to use the other version of the same weapon. I know this isn't the way it is in PnP either, but we aren't in PnP but in a MMO ;)

I just think it would encourage more people to try it and get some fun in a different way than always melee/caster, but most people don't even try it because it's real hard to find good repeaters in the same category.

Would you be for this change?

Tenkari_Rozahas
02-07-2008, 07:35 PM
seperate feats in PnP, slightly different mechanics to them as well. I say its fine the way they are. just dont go picking one until you know which one drops more often for you :p

Angelus_dead
02-07-2008, 08:55 PM
You must spend a feat to be able to use this exotic weapon, but you have to choose if it is the light or heavy ones you're gonna use. These repeating crossbows require special training to be able to reload fast and properly as it is a complex mechanism (meh! lol).
You're right, they should change it so that one feat works for both.

After all, in DDO a fighter can get Weapon Specialization and have +2 damage with twelve different weapons, but in pnp D&D he would be restricted to one specific kind of weapon. You couldn't switch freely between Greataxe and Scimitar... you'd need to choose one, and stick with it (or spend more feats).

Following that same principle, the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feats should be broadened as well. It also increases verisimilitude.

Pellegro
02-07-2008, 08:59 PM
I agree with the suggestion re: feats.

However, I think there is another difference. I think light repeaters have a higher ROF than heavy.

I don't know why I think that, but ......

Eudimio
02-07-2008, 09:07 PM
What I find weird is, the ONLY difference between light and heavy repeaters are: base damage and the weight. So thinking about it, I just found very illogical that if you spent a feat to know how to use/reload this weapon properly (let's say light ones), you can't do the same with the heavy ones... just because they weight 4 more pounds? lmao :p



Okay, I'll join in the silly arguement about fantasy computer game weapons.

Historically, there has been three ways to **** a crossbow:

1. Pull it back with your hand.

2. Put the tip of it on the ground, step on it, and pull it back with your hand.

3. Wind it with a windlass.

The more powerfull the drawstrength on the crossbow, the more likely you'll have to crank it. The difference in proficiency could be explained by the different cocking mechanisms.

Happy Hunting.

honkuimushi
02-08-2008, 08:46 AM
Historically, there has been three ways to **** a crossbow:



Forum filter FTW.

I actually think it made it more suggestive.

EspyLacopa
02-08-2008, 08:59 AM
I mean... when you get martial weapons, you get the shortswords and the longswords proficiency? Do you need some more special training because the LS is longer than the SS? :rolleyes: We get the shortbows AND the longbows? Light picks AND heavy picks? You get the point :D
Actually, no I don't get the point.

Martial Weapons Proficiency(All) is given to the various martial classes automatically: they are trained in all of said weapons. But if you take a class that isn't, like say a Cleric, you'll find that they have to take each Weapon Proficiency separately, just as with the Exotic Weapons. Yes, that means Longsword and Shortsword are separate proficiencies, as are Shortbows/Longbows, and Light Picks/Heavy Picks.

Oh, and by the way. . .Repeating Crossbows really won't work the same in terms of reloading as your typical crossbow. In a repeater, reloading it means changing the cartridge of bolts on top. The proficiency in said weapons includes the knowledge of how to properly fill the cartridge and replace it during combat situations. It's called a Repeating Crossbow because instead of placing a new bolt into the slot for each shot, you simply pull a small lever back each time, which is a Free Action.

Shade
02-08-2008, 08:59 AM
...
You must spend a feat to be able to use this exotic weapon, but you have to choose if it is the light or heavy ones you're gonna use. These repeating crossbows require special training to be able to reload fast and properly as it is a complex mechanism (meh! lol).
---
I mean... when you get martial weapons, you get the shortswords and the longswords proficiency? Do you need some more special training because the LS is longer than the SS? :rolleyes: We get the shortbows AND the longbows? Light picks AND heavy picks? You get the point :D


Well you actually don't in DDO. You can't just spend a feat on martial weapon proficiency like in nevewinter nights.. In DDO you have to select if you wanna learn how to use shortswords or longswords, so yea because one is heavier or light you wont know how to use the other one heh. Same applies to all other weapons you listed..

Actually whats even funnier is, a wizard is not even proficient with simple weapons yet can use a weird specific list of things.. He can use a simple club or a dagger, but he's not proficient with simple weapons in general - so he cannot use a throwing bottle lol - like the one in the tomb of the blighted, where you throw the holy water bottle at stuff.. I mean how hard is it to know how to throw a bottle?
Or how he can use a club - yet he cannot figure out how to use a light mace..

But a sorcerer can! heh.

DnD is just funny like that.

Oreg
02-08-2008, 09:03 AM
Okay, I'll join in the silly arguement about fantasy computer game weapons.

Historically, there has been three ways to **** a crossbow:

1. Pull it back with your hand.

2. Put the tip of it on the ground, step on it, and pull it back with your hand.

3. Wind it with a windlass.

The more powerfull the drawstrength on the crossbow, the more likely you'll have to crank it. The difference in proficiency could be explained by the different cocking mechanisms.

Happy Hunting.

Does it take 2 books (teachers, experts, resource materials, whatever) to learn the two methods? If not then his one feat argument is still pretty solid. ;)

cdbd3rd
02-08-2008, 09:09 AM
Does it take 2 books (teachers, experts, resource materials, whatever) to learn the two methods? If not then his one feat argument is still pretty solid. ;)


Repeaters are nowhere near the same functionally as a regular crossbow. Check my old thread here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=113612) where we discussed this before - as well as viddies on functional historical repeaters.


I do agree the heavy and light repeaters should be one feat, though. ;)


(fixed link) I must have posted the viddie link elsewhere, as it's not in that thread.... I'll go hunting.

edit2: Knew I shoulda saved that viddie locally.
Repeaters on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow)

I think the more lengthy thread got lost in the 'forum event' last year. :(

Ringos
02-08-2008, 09:25 AM
Forum filter FTW.

I actually think it made it more suggestive.

I was trying to fit different 'dirty' words in the post...but none seemed to fit! :)

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 09:35 AM
I was trying to fit different 'dirty' words in the post...but none seemed to fit! :)

You just need an active verb. So, say, the one that starts with an F makes for an interesting mental picture...

:eek:

EinarMal
02-08-2008, 09:38 AM
How about instead you just convert all light repeaters to heavy repeaters and get rid of them, and the feat. Light repeaters should just be removed from the game, or they should shoot a lot faster (I do not think that they do). That way you don't have to worry about it, all repeaters are heavy.

cdbd3rd
02-08-2008, 09:50 AM
How about instead you just convert all light repeaters to heavy repeaters and get rid of them, and the feat. Light repeaters should just be removed from the game, or they should shoot a lot faster (I do not think that they do). That way you don't have to worry about it, all repeaters are heavy.

That lost thread had time data from several of us, both timing light vs. heavy repeaters vs light crossbows w/ Rapid reload feat, etc. Working from memory, the light and heavy had no difference in RoF. At that time, RR didn't work with repeaters, so the repeaters only slightly outfired a RR light crossbow.
(I notice there is still a que issue with repeaters now where you still fire a bolt after reload even if you've stopped clicking - but I digress.)

Much easier (and less treacherous for the database) to combine 'repeater' into one feat. Otherwise, we get into a declining spiral where we see, "Well, why have heavy and light crossbows?" &/or "Why have falchions and greatswords?" followed by "Why do we have short and long bows?" :D

One more link: The American version of the repeater, from an old Pop Sci mag: repeater plans (http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/crossbowfull.pdf)


It's Friday, and the wagro monster sez I have things to do. I take my leave.
_

Kargon
02-08-2008, 10:59 AM
Kargon could see lettaming anymabody who takes eithermer repeatamer feat to fire 3 shots instead of 1 from the othermer type, as long as still have the -4 to-hit penalmaty with the othermer type. If the 'load 3 bolts at once' mechanimism is the same on light and heavamy repeatamers, would make sense that using one lets use the othermer. the seperamate feats would still make you take the -4 tohit to use a heavier or lightamer crossmabow than you trained on, but kargon not see any reasamon the reload would be that differmerent on the two types.

Mad_Bombardier
02-08-2008, 12:41 PM
How about instead you just convert all light repeaters to heavy repeaters and get rid of them, and the feat. Light repeaters should just be removed from the game, or they should shoot a lot faster (I do not think that they do). That way you don't have to worry about it, all repeaters are heavy./ditto on repeater consolidation. Except, it should be the other way around and all Repeaters should be made 1d8. If you've seen models/reconstructions of historical repeaters, you see that Repeating Crossbows lose the power potential of a normal crossbow in gaining the rapid fire with the reload mechanism.

Gornin
02-08-2008, 03:50 PM
I already do this in my PnP game. The loading system is the same for either bow. That is what makes it an exotic weapon feat. The only difference between them is if you use a prod or crank, or maybe a foot stand to arm the bow. That doesn't require a proficiencey, just some one to show you how once.

Bloodyfury
02-16-2008, 06:50 PM
Personnally, I totally don't care honestly as I've 3 complete sets (ubers + w/p) for my rptr builds, so it won't affect me at all even if it stays like this.

Just thought some people would have like to try this kind of builds but probly will never do cuz it's absolutely impossible to pull all the ones you need in the exact category you chose (light or heavy), unless you invest a LOT of time trading (tho it's definitely easier now than when I completed my first set before the first +1 loot week-end! :rolleyes:), and it's not everyone that is willing to trade that much rather than play.

They do try to improve things sometimes (like great crossbows, tho they announced they were suppose to be X3 crit and they remained X2, still ****!), but there's still place for improvement.

In the end, the game is to have some fun. It's not like this change would raise the taxes you pay at the end of the year right? :rolleyes::p

GlassCannon
02-16-2008, 07:21 PM
I agree with the suggestion re: feats.

However, I think there is another difference. I think light repeaters have a higher ROF than heavy.

I don't know why I think that, but ......

They don't. I have 2 Rangers that use both.

I prefer repeaters over Bows, and due to a class/race Strength option being completely nonexistent, I prefer the weight of the Light repeaters over the power of Heavy, except when trying to overcome DR with a Wounding of Puncturing or Weakening of Enfeebling. I'd like Manyshot to apply to them somehow... perhaps with an Arcane Archer?

Merging them into one feat would allow me to take Quick Draw(throwing stuff, heck yeah!) or Rapid Reload(in the off chance it might STACK with Rapid Shot).

Lifespawn
02-16-2008, 07:35 PM
why d8 i think they should be a d12 since damage on them caps out and there is no way to up it

Magnyr_Delorn
02-16-2008, 08:20 PM
Historically, there has been three ways to **** a crossbow:

The difference in proficiency could be explained by the different cocking mechanisms.



Does anyone else think its funny that the forum filter allowed him to say "cocking," but stopped him from saying what I assume was L()AD?

EspyLacopa
02-16-2008, 08:50 PM
Does anyone else think its funny that the forum filter allowed him to say "cocking," but stopped him from saying what I assume was L()AD?

Actually, he was likely using the other form of the word cocking, minus the -ing at the end. Nothing wrong with the word load.

sigtrent
02-16-2008, 11:11 PM
I don't think its a big deal but I'd actualy advocate for exotics to be a category like martial etc and you can take a proficiency to get the whole slew of them. I suppose that would take a way a little of the specilized nature of taking an exotic and I don't mind the way it is, but if it were my cal, that's how I'd do it.

EspyLacopa
02-17-2008, 06:07 AM
I don't think its a big deal but I'd actualy advocate for exotics to be a category like martial etc and you can take a proficiency to get the whole slew of them. I suppose that would take a way a little of the specilized nature of taking an exotic and I don't mind the way it is, but if it were my cal, that's how I'd do it.
Martial Weapons and Simple Weapons don't work that way either.