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SkyCry
02-06-2008, 08:58 AM
Currently how much SP a multiclass sorcerer gets from a SP item (power, wizardry, magi) depends on % of sorcerer levels from total character level. E.g., 5sorc/3bard gets 5/8 or +62,5% extra SP.

At first this seems reasonable, however consider this situation: Fred is 2pal/2sorc and has 300sp. Fred finds a wizardry 2 item and gets +50 from base item bonus and another +25 from 50% sorc levels. Now Fred has 375 SP.

Later Fred gains a new level and decides to go for paladin. Fred becomes 3pal/2sorc, he still has 300 SP without items, since 3pal doesn't give extra SP. However now the wizardry 2 item only gives him +40% extra SP, instead of previous +50%. So by gaining a level he lost SP - now Fred has 300+50+20 or 370 SP!!

That's rather unintuitive as characters aren't supposed don't get worse at *anything* by leveling, and that should include sorcerer ability to extract more SP from items.

So I propose a different very simple system: each sorcerer level allows character to get +15 extra SP from a SP item (however the max +100% SP cap still applies). Let's take a look at the previous example: 2pal/2sorc finds wizardry 2 item - he gains +50 SP from item and then he also gains +30 SP bonus for having 2 sorcerer levels. Say the same character levels and gains another paladin level - now he still has the same SP bonus from the item.

So this is how many extra SP you would be able to extract from SP items based on how many sorcerer levels you have (note that you still can't extract more than +100% of the item):
Sorcerer 1 = +15 SP
Sorcerer 2 = +30 SP
Sorcerer 3 = +45 SP (almost wizardry 2)
Sorcerer 4 = +60 SP
Sorcerer 5 = +75 SP
Sorcerer 6 = +90 SP
Sorcerer 7 = +105 SP (already can get the most from magi / pearl of power 10 / wizardry 4 items)
Sorcerer 8 = +120 SP
Sorcerer 9 = +135 SP
Sorcerer 10 = +150 SP (wizardry 6, if you manage to find one at this level!)
Sorcerer 11 = +165 SP
Sorcerer 12 = +180 SP
Sorcerer 13 = +195 SP (almost archmagi!)
Sorcerer 14 = +210 SP
Sorcerer 15 = +225 SP
Sorcerer 16 = +240 SP
Sorcerer 17 = +255 SP (wizardry 10?)
Sorcerer 18 = +270 SP
Sorcerer 19 = +285 SP
Sorcerer 20 = +300 SP (arch-archmagi?!)

What do you think?

Kraki
02-06-2008, 09:21 AM
That's rather unintuitive as characters aren't supposed don't get worse at *anything* by leveling, and that should include sorcerer ability to extract more SP from items.

I actually like to think of it as "The character is diluting his/her ability to focus on the raw power that he sees around him".

I understand where you are coming with this, but it is not without precedent in the P&P world where multi-classing has some serious penalties. We do not have the XP or class penalties here in DDO and while as you say it's counter-intuitive I don't personally feel that the mechanic breaks the continuity of the game.

Just so you know, I say this as a person who plays a 15/1 Sorc/Bard and would gain mana from your proposal :)

Kraki

Tenkari_Rozahas
02-06-2008, 09:46 AM
I think, in order to get the most out of your SP Items as a multi classed sorc, your Sorc level has to be higher or equal to your other classes...

Mad_Bombardier
02-06-2008, 10:03 AM
Later Fred gains a new level and decides to go for paladin. Fred becomes 3pal/2sorc, he still has 300 SP without items, since 3pal doesn't give extra SP. However now the wizardry 2 item only gives him +40&#37; extra SP, instead of previous +50%. So by gaining a level he lost SP - now Fred has 300+50+20 or 370 SP!!Fred may not get base SP from 3 Paladin, but he does get a few Ability Bonus SP (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Spell_point) if he has a high WIS (Paladin casting stat).

What you have pointed out is one of the flaws in the system granting extra SP from items to Sorcerers. Right now, a 13Cleric/1Sorcerer gains +7 additional SP from a Magi item. At level 20, a 19Cleric/1Sorcerer only gains +5 additional SP from a Magi item. So, over the course of leveling up, loses 2 SP from his bonus. As Kraki said, you as a player choose to dilute your Sorcerer's natural spellcasting power by taking other class levels.

MysticTheurge
02-06-2008, 11:58 AM
The system actually seems fairly intuitive to me.

But if you were going to make an alternative system it should be:

You get +5% SPs from SP items for every level of sorcerer you have up to a maximum of +100% at sorcerer level 20.

Rastawiz
02-06-2008, 12:40 PM
The whole concept of Sorcerers getting double the mana from spellpoint items is just foolish. Items should treat all classes equally. If the item says you get 100 spellpoints, that is what you should get. If the items says you get +5 dex, that is what you should get.

If they wanted to give sorcerers more spellpoints, then they should make some other way to give them spellpoints.

It starts a bad precedent. What if wizards got double the benefit from potency items? What if barbarians got double benefit from a bonus to attack and damage? What if fighters got double the ac from armor and shields?

SkyCry
02-07-2008, 04:11 AM
I actually like to think of it as "The character is diluting his/her ability to focus on the raw power that he sees around him".

I understand where you are coming with this, but it is not without precedent in the P&P world where multi-classing has some serious penalties. We do not have the XP or class penalties here in DDO and while as you say it's counter-intuitive I don't personally feel that the mechanic breaks the continuity of the game.

Just so you know, I say this as a person who plays a 15/1 Sorc/Bard and would gain mana from your proposal :)

Kraki

Multiclassing in P&P has penalties for your further progress, that is you gain experience slower. However it doesn't in any way affect what you've already learned as a character.

The system actually seems fairly intuitive to me.

But if you were going to make an alternative system it should be:

You get +5% SPs from SP items for every level of sorcerer you have up to a maximum of +100% at sorcerer level 20.

The idea was to make current pure sorcerers unaffected, while giving multiclass sorcerers a clear definition of what they have and can't lose no matter their future choice of spending XP.

The whole concept of Sorcerers getting double the mana from spellpoint items is just foolish. Items should treat all classes equally. If the item says you get 100 spellpoints, that is what you should get. If the items says you get +5 dex, that is what you should get.

If they wanted to give sorcerers more spellpoints, then they should make some other way to give them spellpoints.

It starts a bad precedent. What if wizards got double the benefit from potency items? What if barbarians got double benefit from a bonus to attack and damage? What if fighters got double the ac from armor and shields?

There are a lot of things I'd like to change with the current SP system, however I prefer to start small. :)
I didn't start this thread to discuss whether sorcerers should or should not have double SP from items. You're free to start such a thread and see what happens.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-07-2008, 04:17 AM
Currently how much SP a multiclass sorcerer gets from a SP item (power, wizardry, magi) depends on % of sorcerer levels from total character level. E.g., 5sorc/3bard gets 5/8 or +62,5% extra SP.

At first this seems reasonable, however consider this situation: Fred is 2pal/2sorc and has 300sp. Fred finds a wizardry 2 item and gets +50 from base item bonus and another +25 from 50% sorc levels. Now Fred has 375 SP.

Later Fred gains a new level and decides to go for paladin. Fred becomes 3pal/2sorc, he still has 300 SP without items, since 3pal doesn't give extra SP. However now the wizardry 2 item only gives him +40% extra SP, instead of previous +50%. So by gaining a level he lost SP - now Fred has 300+50+20 or 370 SP!!

That's rather unintuitive as characters aren't supposed don't get worse at *anything* by leveling, and that should include sorcerer ability to extract more SP from items.

So I propose a different very simple system: each sorcerer level allows character to get +15 extra SP from a SP item (however the max +100% SP cap still applies). Let's take a look at the previous example: 2pal/2sorc finds wizardry 2 item - he gains +50 SP from item and then he also gains +30 SP bonus for having 2 sorcerer levels. Say the same character levels and gains another paladin level - now he still has the same SP bonus from the item.

So this is how many extra SP you would be able to extract from SP items based on how many sorcerer levels you have (note that you still can't extract more than +100% of the item):
Sorcerer 1 = +15 SP
Sorcerer 2 = +30 SP
Sorcerer 3 = +45 SP (almost wizardry 2)
Sorcerer 4 = +60 SP
Sorcerer 5 = +75 SP
Sorcerer 6 = +90 SP
Sorcerer 7 = +105 SP (already can get the most from magi / pearl of power 10 / wizardry 4 items)
Sorcerer 8 = +120 SP
Sorcerer 9 = +135 SP
Sorcerer 10 = +150 SP (wizardry 6, if you manage to find one at this level!)
Sorcerer 11 = +165 SP
Sorcerer 12 = +180 SP
Sorcerer 13 = +195 SP (almost archmagi!)
Sorcerer 14 = +210 SP
Sorcerer 15 = +225 SP
Sorcerer 16 = +240 SP
Sorcerer 17 = +255 SP (wizardry 10?)
Sorcerer 18 = +270 SP
Sorcerer 19 = +285 SP
Sorcerer 20 = +300 SP (arch-archmagi?!)

What do you think?

Honestly the sorc additional sp from items should go up with the sorc ENERGY OF THE DRAGON BLOODED Enhancement, it would be a better idea.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-07-2008, 04:19 AM
The whole concept of Sorcerers getting double the mana from spellpoint items is just foolish. Items should treat all classes equally. If the item says you get 100 spellpoints, that is what you should get. If the items says you get +5 dex, that is what you should get.

If they wanted to give sorcerers more spellpoints, then they should make some other way to give them spellpoints.

It starts a bad precedent. What if wizards got double the benefit from potency items? What if barbarians got double benefit from a bonus to attack and damage? What if fighters got double the ac from armor and shields?

Its called someone focusing on the energies and auras of an item and gaining greater benefit from it, which is why iI made the suggestion above, its a skill you learn to use, not just have.