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Knightrose
02-04-2008, 04:40 AM
Is it possible we can get all two-handed weapons to swing at the same attack speed? Great Axes get favored simple because they swing faster. Great Swords are going the way of the do-do. And frankly I myself have only ever used one when I had to. Purely because the Great Axe(s) I had were so crappy, not because I favored the sword. I do favor Great Swords but it saddens me each time I try to use one know it swings slower. Why? Is this a balancing issue with crit range? It's really irrelevant actually if you think about it. Pleas speed Mauls and G. Swords. Thanks.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-04-2008, 06:50 AM
Is it possible we can get all two-handed weapons to swing at the same attack speed? Great Axes get favored simple because they swing faster. Great Swords are going the way of the do-do. And frankly I myself have only ever used one when I had to. Purely because the Great Axe(s) I had were so crappy, not because I favored the sword. I do favor Great Swords but it saddens me each time I try to use one know it swings slower. Why? Is this a balancing issue with crit range? It's really irrelevant actually if you think about it. Pleas speed Mauls and G. Swords. Thanks.

Codog addressed this at length...the answer was that they should, but it didn't look pretty, so they didn't do it. And now its too much work to fix it so they won't.

ViVid7th
02-04-2008, 06:57 AM
Codog addressed this at length...the answer was that they should, but it didn't look pretty, so they didn't do it. And now its too much work to fix it so they won't.

Woah, wait...

So they agreed that the swing speed for two handed weapons should be the same, for balance reasons, but the animations looked better with slower attack speeds so they left it slower, and now it is too much work to change? O.o?!

Big_Russ
02-04-2008, 07:04 AM
Yeah, if that is the case then that is really not acceptable.

Knightrose
02-04-2008, 07:10 AM
It's extremely unacceptable. So all 2handed weapons, minus Great Axes, should be completely boycotted because it's 'too difficult' for them to fix a game-breaking error o.O?

I can take a slap in the face. You know from a girlfriend, or a mother, but not from some video game designers who I'm paying to handle their own game.

That right there **** near makes me want to quit my subscription. What kind of horse kaka is that.

I hope I'm not the only person who thinks this is wrong.

Lifespawn
02-04-2008, 08:30 AM
No you aren't IF they actually said that which i don't think they would actually come out and say i mean when does turbine come out bluntly and say something really.

So if they did that is completley unacceptable if they want it to stay looking pretty maybe they should add more damage to everything but the SOS make it 2d8 instead of 2d6 on a greatsword . Likewise adjust other slower ones to get a little boost to make the game a bit more balanced....just like 1 race shouldn't dominate the field no weapon should dominate the field to the exception of all others with no drawbacks.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-04-2008, 08:44 AM
No you aren't IF they actually said that which i don't think they would actually come out and say i mean when does turbine come out bluntly and say something really.

There was a LONG thread on the subject, feel free to search for it if you wish. I am 99% sure it was CD who was the dev in the thread but that part I could be wrong about.

The theory was that it look silly if it took as long to swing a dagger as a falchon so they broke from the D&D rules that all weapons swing at the same rate. Having done that, they they went cosmetic in other ways with the swing over balance so "look" was at least as important as DPS in the artist rendering. Since there are multiple weapon swing types, and that each race has to be seperately animated for each swing type, it was determined that the newer programmers who didn't really like it also thought it wasn't worth going back to fix the scores of animations required.


So if they did that is completley unacceptable if they want it to stay looking pretty maybe they should add more damage to everything but the SOS make it 2d8 instead of 2d6 on a greatsword . Likewise adjust other slower ones to get a little boost to make the game a bit more balanced....just like 1 race shouldn't dominate the field no weapon should dominate the field to the exception of all others with no drawbacks.

All of that was argued which is what brought us to the "its too difficult" discussion.

tihocan
02-04-2008, 10:09 AM
Read Codog's explanation here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1392396#post1392396
Read my follow-up question I posted recently here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1545232#post1545232
Hopefully Codog can come back to this issue and answer it! :)

GeneralDiomedes
02-04-2008, 10:25 AM
I'm pretty sure that Mauls, Quarterstaves and Greataxes all swing at the same speed. Greatswords and Greatclubs are slower, followed by Falchions if I remember correctly.

Actually my Sorc uses a Maul while my wiz/fighter uses a Greatsword, and I'm certain it swings faster.

Kerr
02-04-2008, 11:02 AM
Well J-Fing'-C.....

There goes any greatness to having a Sword of Shadows now. What's the point if the swing is going to be so screwed up at higher levels that the weapon effectively does LESS damage than what should be vendor garbage greataxes?

jjflanigan
02-04-2008, 11:03 AM
I'm pretty sure that Mauls, Quarterstaves and Greataxes all swing at the same speed. Greatswords and Greatclubs are slower, followed by Falchions if I remember correctly.

Actually my Sorc uses a Maul while my wiz/fighter uses a Greatsword, and I'm certain it swings faster.

The Quarterstaff swings at a slightly faster rate than the Maul and Greataxe to offset the fact that it gets the first glancing blow on the 3rd swing instead of the first. It's not a LOT faster, around the mark of 2 - 3 extra swings per minute.

As a side note -- at BaB 10 Greataxes swing at 88 swings / minute and Greatswords swing at 83 swings / minute. 1.47 / second versus 1.38 / second. I'm still tabulating the numbers for BaB 11 - 16 and should have them added into the weapon tool soon. But, at BaB 10, with a strength of 10 - A +5 Greataxe does about 2 DPS more than a Greatsword. 2 damage / second is not really that huge of a deal. Even with Power Attack on, the difference is only 3 DPS.

So, while it's something that should be looked at to make those weapons in the same "class" equal, it's nothing to get extremely upset over in the grand scheme of how combat works.

Mad_Bombardier
02-04-2008, 11:55 AM
There goes any greatness to having a Sword of Shadows now. What's the point if the swing is going to be so screwed up at higher levels that the weapon effectively does LESS damage than what should be vendor garbage greataxes?Completely and utterly untrue. Extremely high end Greataxes and Mauls will out-DPS the Sword of Shadows, but "vendor garbage" is still vendor garbage. Your SoS is safe. :) (And the new Greensteel Greatsword is 3d6 base damage, so that's a Greatsword worth using, right there!)

Knightrose
02-04-2008, 09:37 PM
This is so bogus. It upsets me greatly.

Shade
02-05-2008, 06:29 AM
Completely and utterly untrue. Extremely high end Greataxes and Mauls will out-DPS the Sword of Shadows, but "vendor garbage" is still vendor garbage. Your SoS is safe. :) (And the new Greensteel Greatsword is 3d6 base damage, so that's a Greatsword worth using, right there!)

Meh the greatsword sucks. The maul is the only good one, 2d8 x3.

Well actually they all suck until we can find out some nice upgrades for them... Which we can't cuz the repeat dialog is broken.

Monkey_Archer
02-10-2009, 07:13 AM
The way the animation looks was funny?????
this is a joke right?

10% faster or slower???

i guess the person that argued this has never seen a hasted, haste boosted tempest fighter...... rofl...

Damionic
02-10-2009, 08:18 AM
Codog addressed this at length...the answer was that they should, but it didn't look pretty, so they didn't do it. And now its too much work to fix it so they won't.

Question..does swinging as hasted a Great Sword, Maul or Great Club look...Ugly?? (please note this is rhetorical..to prove a point)

rimble
02-10-2009, 09:19 AM
Question..does swinging as hasted a Great Sword, Maul or Great Club look...Ugly?? (please note this is rhetorical..to prove a point)

Codog was talking about speeding up parts of the attack chain animation, not the whole sequence.

As your BAB goes up, you get more animations added:

Animation 1 + Animation 2 + Animation 3 + Animation 4...

He was talking about maybe Animation 3 being a little slow and just speeding that one up...and he's saying that made things jacked up, which I could see.

It does suck they're not equal, but it's really not worth all the work to address a 2-3 DPS disparity...especially at the level of DPS most characters using these are at...

Emili
02-10-2009, 09:55 AM
Codog was talking about speeding up parts of the attack chain animation, not the whole sequence.

As your BAB goes up, you get more animations added:

Animation 1 + Animation 2 + Animation 3 + Animation 4...

He was talking about maybe Animation 3 being a little slow and just speeding that one up...and he's saying that made things jacked up, which I could see.

It does suck they're not equal, but it's really not worth all the work to address a 2-3 DPS disparity...especially at the level of DPS most characters using these are at...


Except to the perception of the player base... Do not forget most powergamers are out there to tweak (and this actually trikles down to the casual players also)... 2-3 DPS in their eyes is just that 2-3 DPS and falls in suit to them as the difference between a +2 or +3 tome or a +6 AC bracer vs +7 Ac bracer, etc... Thus The GS is looked at as an inferior weapon to the GA, Thus most the THF population runs around with the GA instead - conforming tothe better weapon.

While 2-3 DPS in reality and all practicality is irrelivant really... the player base poise bias against such things - ie.) I joined a shroud group on my 16th level pure fighter about a month ago, the first thing out the group leader said before accepting me was "What weapons do you use on Harry?" - Well I have two GS Min II Khopeshes on her... but I almost wanted to say "Who's Harry?" As I found it quite a pompus elitist question... I told him anyway and joined because I really wanted to run shroud that day.

Angelus_dead
02-10-2009, 11:08 AM
Codog addressed this at length...the answer was that they should, but it didn't look pretty, so they didn't do it. And now its too much work to fix it so they won't.
It's interesting to compare this handling with the same kind of problem suffered by Age Of Conan. Read about it (http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=115251).


Last week I promised that I would do my best to have a more detailed update on the issue about Male vs. Female attack speed/damage ready by today. It’s quite possible that not everyone will be thrilled by what this update contains but you as a community deserve to know both what’s causing it, why it’s taking us this long to fix it, and how we plan on fixing it.
Let me begin with saying “yes, we here at Funcom agree with you; this is an unacceptable bug”.
I know that many of you will probably be disappointed to hear that it might take us as much as another three to four weeks to solve this issue, for which I can only apologize, but we want to make sure that we devote the amount of time that an issue of this magnitude and importance deserves rather than rush out a “quick fix” that might not work as well

Not mentioned in that announcement is the fact that the discrepancies were caused by motion-capture actors (who obviously would have a tough time making attacks at exactly the same speed)

rimble
02-10-2009, 11:14 AM
It's interesting to compare this handling with the same kind of problem suffered by Age Of Conan. Read about it (http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=115251).

Interesting. I wonder if the difference in DDO were also along Male/Female lines if it would get more attention, suddenly you're dealing with a sexism issue.

icculus
02-10-2009, 11:28 AM
I joined a shroud group on my 16th level pure fighter about a month ago, the first thing out the group leader said before accepting me was "What weapons do you use on Harry?" - Well I have two GS Min II Khopeshes on her... but I almost wanted to say "Who's Harry?" As I found it quite a pompus elitist question... I told him anyway and joined because I really wanted to run shroud that day.

You may think it is elitist, but when you have to deal with idiots like this all day it becomes a VERY valid question:


- The fact that you think a transmuter does more damage on Arraetrikos then my Tier III pos falchion is laughable!

GlassCannon
02-10-2009, 04:41 PM
The difference between a Greatsword and a Bastard Sword is not the weight, or length, or anything of the sort.

It is the wielder.

If you can one-hand a Greatsword, it is a Bastard Sword. If you have to 2-hand a Bastard Sword, it is a Greatsword.

Therefore, "Monkey Grip" ought be added to the game(rename it so you can play with it a bit and shrug off 'the rules'), and instead of taking abilities from TWF, take feats from THF to apply extra attacks(I know it makes no sense, but it will prevent Dwarven Dual Greataxe Ranger Exploit Builds).

icculus
02-10-2009, 05:14 PM
The difference between a Greatsword and a Bastard Sword is not the weight, or length, or anything of the sort.

It is the wielder.

If you can one-hand a Greatsword, it is a Bastard Sword. If you have to 2-hand a Bastard Sword, it is a Greatsword.

That maybe the definition in real-life (tm) but that is not how it is in D&D.


While it is OT, one way they could improve the Bastard Sword in game would be to allow you to Two-Hand it - suddenly it becomes a desireable weapon for Tanks: THF DPS option and S&B defensive option all in one. Rather than currently where you need completely different weapons for THF and S&B/TWF.

Noctus
02-10-2009, 05:18 PM
The difference between a Greatsword and a Bastard Sword is not the weight, or length, or anything of the sort.

It is the wielder.

If you can one-hand a Greatsword, it is a Bastard Sword. If you have to 2-hand a Bastard Sword, it is a Greatsword.

No, they are two distince weapons.

The fact that you can use (if you have the exotic weapon proficiency) a BS either in 1 or in 2 hands doesnt suddently make it a greatsword when you wield it 2-handed.

- B@stardsword is a bit smaller (1d10) and has 2 potential ways in which you can wield it.

- Greatsword is a bit bigger (2d6) and can thus only be wielded 2-handed.

Dark_Helmet
02-10-2009, 06:37 PM
The difference between a Greatsword and a Bastard Sword is not the weight, or length, or anything of the sort.

It is the wielder.

If you can one-hand a Greatsword, it is a Bastard Sword. If you have to 2-hand a Bastard Sword, it is a Greatsword.

Therefore, "Monkey Grip" ought be added to the game(rename it so you can play with it a bit and shrug off 'the rules'), and instead of taking abilities from TWF, take feats from THF to apply extra attacks(I know it makes no sense, but it will prevent Dwarven Dual Greataxe Ranger Exploit Builds).

Not really. The Bastard sword is also called hand-and-a-half since it doesn't fit into either the one-handed or two-handed catagories but is half way between both.

It usually just has a longer grip than a one-handed but not as large as a two-handed, which requires more skill to wield one-handed, but can also be used (more easily) by putting the second hand toward the bottom of the handle (with some fingers coming off).

That is why D&D had classified one-handed usage as exotic and two-handed as martial (which DDO has still not implemented when they SHOULD!)

binnsr
03-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Except to the perception of the player base... Do not forget most powergamers are out there to tweak (and this actually trikles down to the casual players also)... 2-3 DPS in their eyes is just that 2-3 DPS and falls in suit to them as the difference between a +2 or +3 tome or a +6 AC bracer vs +7 Ac bracer, etc... Thus The GS is looked at as an inferior weapon to the GA, Thus most the THF population runs around with the GA instead - conforming tothe better weapon.

While 2-3 DPS in reality and all practicality is irrelivant really... the player base poise bias against such things - ie.) I joined a shroud group on my 16th level pure fighter about a month ago, the first thing out the group leader said before accepting me was "What weapons do you use on Harry?" - Well I have two GS Min II Khopeshes on her... but I almost wanted to say "Who's Harry?" As I found it quite a pompus elitist question... I told him anyway and joined because I really wanted to run shroud that day.


It's not really just 2-3 DPS .. I built a chart that shows average damage per 100 swings and (Using the attack speeds in cforce's thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819)) damage per minute. The discrepancy between a GS greatsword and a GS greataxe in a minute is 429 damage (assuming a +53 damage modifier). Dividing that by 60 gives you 7.15 damage per second (including criticals with the Improved Crit feat, naturally). A 7.15 dps difference means that over the course of a 10 minute fight with Harry or Sulu, the fellow with a greataxe is going to do 4300 more damage than the same guy with his greatsword.


GS Std Avg Dmg (100 swngs) Damage per minute
Weapon Type Crit Mult Dmg Avg Dmg Avg Crit Dmg Avg Dmg Avg Crit GS Std Increase Spd GS Std Increase
Greataxe THF 20/x3 3d6 71.5 214.5 1d12 67.5 202.5 8580 8100 6% .81 6950 6561 6%
Maul THF 20/x3 2d8 70 210 1d10 66.5 199.5 8400 7980 5% .81 6804 6464 5%
Falchion THF 18-20/x2 2d6 68 136 2d4 66 132 8840 8580 3% .76 6718 6521 3%
Greatsword THF 19-20/x2 3d6 71.5 143 2d6 68 136 8580 8160 5% .76 6521 6202 5%
Quarterstaff THF 20/x2 1d8 65.5 131 1d6 64.5 129 7205 7095 2% .84 6052 5960 2%

For trash mobs, who really cares .. but for long fights, I'll keep my greataxe.. thanks! (even though my new THF build *should* be themed for greatswords since he'll be using the BladeSworn Transformation:()

p.s. -- full chart is posted here (http://housetharashk.net/htforum/showthread.php?t=1507) -much easier to display this sort of information using [noparse][noparse] tags..