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View Full Version : DC's on elite are RIDICULOUS



tekn0mage
02-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Trap DC's on Level 12 missions in the 40's ? 200+ points of damage?

Oh yes let's not forget about the PHAT loot now available on elite. +1 Sacred Heavy Steel Shield of Lesser Lightning Resistance...

So do you think at some point you dev's can come back to reality and start making some sense? Yes, a Level 16 should be able to breeze through a level 12 mission.

Turbine sure goes a long way to slow people down. It must be saving them a ton of money on development costs. Fine job of that, seeing as how your new raid you spent 4 months working on was beaten in what, 3 days?

Kire
02-03-2008, 06:45 PM
Trap DC's on Level 12 missions in the 40's ? 200+ points of damage?

Oh yes let's not forget about the PHAT loot now available on elite. +1 Sacred Heavy Steel Shield of Lesser Lightning Resistance...

So do you think at some point you dev's can come back to reality and start making some sense? Yes, a Level 16 should be able to breeze through a level 12 mission.

Turbine sure goes a long way to slow people down. It must be saving them a ton of money on development costs. Fine job of that, seeing as how your new raid you spent 4 months working on was beaten in what, 3 days?

What quest? lol. and elite shouldnt exactly be easy...

~Kire

bigal4458
02-03-2008, 06:46 PM
Trap DC's on Level 12 missions in the 40's ? 200+ points of damage?

Oh yes let's not forget about the PHAT loot now available on elite. +1 Sacred Heavy Steel Shield of Lesser Lightning Resistance...

So do you think at some point you dev's can come back to reality and start making some sense? Yes, a Level 16 should be able to breeze through a level 12 mission.

Turbine sure goes a long way to slow people down. It must be saving them a ton of money on development costs. Fine job of that, seeing as how your new raid you spent 4 months working on was beaten in what, 3 days?

umm. A lvl 12 quest on elite is a lvl 14 quest. And they did mention they are making elite way more "hardcore".

airbornerangers
02-03-2008, 06:57 PM
i agree that traps should be harder on elite. now, having said this doing scoundrels run on lite with lvl 14 tanks with resist and protection on and cant make it to the bottom of the fire hallway! just my opinion but thats a little much maybe!

AkromaAoW
02-03-2008, 07:04 PM
Just a thought, tanks aren't supposed to make it through tough traps, rogues are...

MysticRhythms
02-03-2008, 07:16 PM
I don't mind the several hundred damage.

But if the DCs are over 40, that could be a bit too much even for a Rogue.

Ghoste
02-03-2008, 07:32 PM
Ran von 5 today with a group on elite. The rogue couldn't disarm the trap by the last door, or pick the lock for that matter, because he kept dying in the trap.

Angelus_dead
02-03-2008, 07:57 PM
umm. A lvl 12 quest on elite is a lvl 14 quest.
We all know that a level 12 elite is only 14 for purposes of loot. Elite adds more than +2 to the difficulty... probably more like +4 or even +5.

AkromaAoW
02-03-2008, 08:07 PM
Ran von 5 today with a group on elite. The rogue couldn't disarm the trap by the last door, or pick the lock for that matter, because he kept dying in the trap.

I look forward to the next time I meet that trap :).

MysticTheurge
02-03-2008, 08:07 PM
umm. A lvl 12 quest on elite is a lvl 14 quest. And they did mention they are making elite way more "hardcore".

It is possible that tekn0 was referring to a level-10-quest-on-elite which would actually be "level 12" according to the game.

Bilger
02-03-2008, 08:14 PM
40 isn't a hard mark for a rogue of equal level to the quest. Shoot my LVL 7/2/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter hits 42 on her DD and 40 search. Not so rediculous IMO. A pure rogue should hit even higher. With a 40 that is a 0% failure on elite.

EinarMal
02-03-2008, 08:15 PM
40 isn't a hard mark for a rogue of equal level to the quest. Shoot my LVL 7/2/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter hits 42 on her DD and 40 search. Not so rediculous IMO. A pure rogue should hit even higher. With a 40 that is a 0% failure on elite.

Not a 40 to disable the trap, a 40 reflex save to be able to stand in the trap to disable it. Your level 10 rogue have a 40 reflex save?

Bilger
02-03-2008, 08:20 PM
Must have misread 40 reflex would be rediculous she can buff into low 30 so she would fail half the time. On elite though it should be higher but o well elite means elite which means will be tougher would love to give a shot though. What quest are ya talking about.

Vormaerin
02-03-2008, 08:29 PM
There are quite a few threads on the topic. Yes, the DCs are way too high at the moment. The DC for the Elixir blade trap is 30 on elite! Gwylan's firetrap is 36 on hard. As far as I know, they only announced that the damage would be higher.... which if fine. So I'm assuming the DC increase was a mistake and will be corrected. As it stands, any trap on elite that the rogue has to pass through or, worse, stand in to reach the box is very likely to kill the rogue. There's no way they will have the hp and its unlikely they'll have the reflex save unless they are a saves focused halfling or something.

Tanka
02-03-2008, 08:48 PM
Prior to Mod 6, I could walk through any Elite trap on Tanka with no issues. ~30 Reflex save with GH, Boots of the Innocent and Head of Good Fortune.

Now? I rarely make the save, and when I don't, I take 150 points of damage in VoN5 Elite.

A bit absurd, if you ask me. It basically means you need a dedicated trapsmith, not someone with a splash of rogue, to advance you past anything like that.

We had two trap rogues in the group (I don't count Tanka as a rogue :p) last night, and neither could make it through the last trap alive. They had to be rezzed on the other side and get both a GH and an Inspire Competence to be able to even find the trap, let alone disable it.

Elite should be harder, yes, but when a group of experienced players with good gear gets beat down hardcore style on Elite, it's become "why am I bothering with this setting?" setting.

Vormaerin
02-03-2008, 09:02 PM
DC's on the search and disable checks are not supposed to have changed. Have they changed or did the rogues just need the boosts because of the death debuff? Also, aren't Inspire Competence and Greater Heroism both morale bonuses? I didn't think they stacked..

AkromaAoW
02-03-2008, 09:03 PM
Prior to Mod 6, I could walk through any Elite trap on Tanka with no issues. ~30 Reflex save with GH, Boots of the Innocent and Head of Good Fortune.

Now? I rarely make the save, and when I don't, I take 150 points of damage in VoN5 Elite.

A bit absurd, if you ask me. It basically means you need a dedicated trapsmith, not someone with a splash of rogue, to advance you past anything like that.

We had two trap rogues in the group (I don't count Tanka as a rogue :p) last night, and neither could make it through the last trap alive. They had to be rezzed on the other side and get both a GH and an Inspire Competence to be able to even find the trap, let alone disable it.

Elite should be harder, yes, but when a group of experienced players with good gear gets beat down hardcore style on Elite, it's become "why am I bothering with this setting?" setting.

That's interesting about not being able to find the trap. The DC's for spot, search, open locks and disable seem unchanged from what I've tried so far, which is as the Dev's said they would be...

Allasar
02-03-2008, 09:17 PM
Was running Scoundrel's Run today on Elite. Save DC's for the fire hallway are between a 36 and 38 - for every flame jet there. This seems a tad much. Maybe a rogue with improved evasion and uncanny dodge can get through it, but probably want to buff with Fire Shield as well - good luck. I'm curious if a level-appropriate rogue can do it.

Tanka
02-03-2008, 09:24 PM
That's interesting about not being able to find the trap. The DC's for spot, search, open locks and disable seem unchanged from what I've tried so far, which is as the Dev's said they would be...
They've gone up fairly significantly, from what I can tell. I haven't played my rogue in a while, so my ideas of what's easily searchable and what's not might be a smidge... Skewed.


Was running Scoundrel's Run today on Elite. Save DC's for the fire hallway are between a 36 and 38 - for every flame jet there. This seems a tad much. Maybe a rogue with improved evasion and uncanny dodge can get through it, but probably want to buff with Fire Shield as well - good luck. I'm curious if a level-appropriate rogue can do it.
On Elite, "level appropriate" is a bit of a misnomer. It may grant XP and loot as a quest two levels higher, but you need to be at least another 2 beyond that to be "on average" with the monsters and traps themselves.

Vormaerin
02-03-2008, 09:31 PM
Well, a halfling rogue with reflex save enhancements can probably do it. Dunno about the less lucky races.

And so far, I haven't found any of the spot/search/disarm values to be changed, but I haven't been actively looking at that either. Haven't failed anything I'd been able to do before, though.

Angelus_dead
02-03-2008, 10:31 PM
On Elite, "level appropriate" is a bit of a misnomer. It may grant XP and loot as a quest two levels higher, but you need to be at least another 2 beyond that to be "on average" with the monsters and traps themselves.
That is how DDO used to work, and still continues to work in most situations. But for these new trap DCs, an elite quest is more like TEN levels above normal in terms of reflex saves.

Invalid_86
02-03-2008, 11:29 PM
Welcome to the side effects of DDO power creep.

AkromaAoW
02-03-2008, 11:39 PM
OK, I just took a quick trip to Cabal for One on elite. I figured that if the DC for search and disable have raised uniformly across quests on hard and elite, then the bar should be really high in Cabal at the trap chest - near impossible, it would seem, if the DC had jumped significantly. Found and disabled the trap. Disabled with a first roll hitting 75, where I believe the disable has been 72ish. So, this doesnt seem to have changed, or if it has, not by more than 3.

Pellegro
02-03-2008, 11:40 PM
It basically means you need a dedicated trapsmith, not someone with a splash of rogue, to advance you past anything like [VON 5 on elite].

In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so. On normal or hard, traps can be handled by those who "splash" rogue. On elite, it really should require builds that are designed to do something ... traps, spell DCs, etc.

You get 12 slots in a raid. Pick up a trapsmith. Just my humble opinion ....

MysticTheurge
02-03-2008, 11:53 PM
In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so.

Yeah, but people are talking (and I've not tested it myself, so YMMV) like it's hard, if not impossible, for someone 2-4 levels above the adjusted level of the quest to handle and/or take care of the traps.

If so, that's sort of a problem.

Making traps harder was never a good way to make rogues more valuable. Aside from the entire "You shouldn't have to have any single, particular class in your group" problem, there's also the fact that it forces rogues to focus solely on one thing if they want to even be able to come close to doing that one thing. And when you add in the fact that rogues are the only ones who can do that thing, you've got a problem. A problem called pigeonholing.

Vormaerin
02-04-2008, 12:34 AM
You can make a build with a crazy high reflex save without it totally gimping the character. But we aren't talking raids where you get 12 people. We are talking quests like Goodblades, Gwylan's, Scoundrel's run, and other typical quests. But really, is it a good idea to require a very lopsided build to handle elite quests? As in, no you can't go on them if you don't have exactly the right party composition with the exactly right set of unusual builds? That hardly seems like a good idea to me.

tekn0mage
02-04-2008, 02:54 AM
In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so. On normal or hard, traps can be handled by those who "splash" rogue. On elite, it really should require builds that are designed to do something ... traps, spell DCs, etc.

You get 12 slots in a raid. Pick up a trapsmith. Just my humble opinion ....

Welcome to min/max gaming...something DDO has always tried to avoid.

For those of you who did NOT build a min/max toon, you'll now be at the mercy of those who did.

studentx
02-04-2008, 05:25 AM
Was running Scoundrel's Run today on Elite. Save DC's for the fire hallway are between a 36 and 38 - for every flame jet there. This seems a tad much. Maybe a rogue with improved evasion and uncanny dodge can get through it, but probably want to buff with Fire Shield as well - good luck. I'm curious if a level-appropriate rogue can do it.

A halfing perhaps with good rolls or a dwarf with plenty of buffs and hitpoints, keep in mind both would have to have the two splash levels of paladin for extra saves. Improved evasion is lvl 10 so I doubt. Only takes one low roll since rogues don't have hitpoints.

Another reason not to play a rogue in a game where an entire classes design concept was disarm and open locks, such a waste.

studentx
02-04-2008, 05:26 AM
Yeah, but people are talking (and I've not tested it myself, so YMMV) like it's hard, if not impossible, for someone 2-4 levels above the adjusted level of the quest to handle and/or take care of the traps.

If so, that's sort of a problem.

Making traps harder was never a good way to make rogues more valuable. Aside from the entire "You shouldn't have to have any single, particular class in your group" problem, there's also the fact that it forces rogues to focus solely on one thing if they want to even be able to come close to doing that one thing. And when you add in the fact that rogues are the only ones who can do that thing, you've got a problem. A problem called pigeonholing.

No no it is a clever design mechanism. ;)

Vormaerin
02-04-2008, 05:34 AM
Another reason not to play a rogue in a game where an entire classes design concept was disarm and open locks, such a waste.

Uhh, what are you talking about? The rogue is hardly all about traps and locks. That's not even its secondary contribution to a group, more like the tertiary. Rogues, at least good ones, add a lot of damage potential to the group as well as versatility in emergency back up roles through superior UMD. The fact that they can remove traps and locks is a nice benefit, but if its the only reason a rogue is brought along it shows a pretty poor understanding of the class.

Though it is sad how many of the players of rogues also have that same misconception..... *sigh*

honkuimushi
02-04-2008, 06:05 AM
In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so. On normal or hard, traps can be handled by those who "splash" rogue. On elite, it really should require builds that are designed to do something ... traps, spell DCs, etc.

You get 12 slots in a raid. Pick up a trapsmith. Just my humble opinion ....

Actually right now, the best trapsmith build would probably be a drow Ranger 2/ Paladin 3/ Rogue 11. You get +3 to your reflex save from the Ranger, +1 from the Paladin and +7 from the Rogue. In addition you have Divine Grace, the first save enhancement from the paladin, +3 trap sense from the rogue levels plus the trapsense enhancements. Without gear or enhancements and a 16 Chr and Dex, you have an 20 Reflex save. If you add in enhancements, Dex items, Chr items, and Resistance items you should easily reach a 30 and 40 should be possible with the right gear. You get Improved Evasion, too. Is this what you mean by a dedicated build?

In contrast, a 16th level rogue with a 16 dex has 10 Reflex Save from levels, +5 from trap sense and +3 from dex for an 18 Reflex Save. If you raise the initial dex to 20, you can meet the 20 from the above build, but you only have at most 1 trap sense enhancement more than above and you lack Divine Grace and the ability to improve your saves through Charisma Items and enhancements and the Paladin Save enhancements.

With the current save DCs, it appears that it's only the Paladin splashes that can survive these traps. I find that a very disturbing development.

Edit: On second thought, a 32 pt. halfling with the same build could probably beat a drow on saves. I'm not sure about a 28 pt. build. The drow stat bonuses in all the right places might beat out the halfling enhancements. You also would start having trouble with having enough APs to take everything you want.

Thrudh
02-04-2008, 06:44 AM
I haven't done a lot of traps with my drow bard/rogue on elite since Mod 6 came out...

However, I did run VON 5 on elite, and the trap DCs in there were at least 38 (I had a 28 reflex save - that's with a 24 Dex, GH, +3 resistance item, and Head of Good Fortune (+2 saves)), and I failed (and died) on a 10...

After that, I let the "pure" rogue handle the traps... and he died at least 3-4 times.... (he never did respond to my requests for his save numbers)

I did disarm several boxes that weren't protected by an active trap, and the DCs seem unchanged for search and disable.

Problem is... I don't see how I can get my reflex save up any higher... Maybe I can get my Dex up to 26... maybe I can find a +4/+5 resistance item....

Most would consider me a "splashed" rogue... but I started with an 18 Intelligence on purpose for my rogue side and have kept ALL my rogue skills maxed out... So I feel I'm fairly dedicated to it...

I'll reserve judgement on the new system for a bit longer...

MysticRhythms
02-04-2008, 06:47 AM
That's interesting about not being able to find the trap. The DC's for spot, search, open locks and disable seem unchanged from what I've tried so far, which is as the Dev's said they would be...

I'm finding this to still be the case on my Rogue.

MysticTheurge
02-04-2008, 07:31 AM
Uhh, what are you talking about? The rogue is hardly all about traps and locks.

Except when the game forces you to devote massive amounts of resources towards traps and locks if you want to be able to disarm/open them, then yeah, the class starts to be "all about" traps and locks.

Talcyndl
02-04-2008, 07:51 AM
OK, I just took a quick trip to Cabal for One on elite. I figured that if the DC for search and disable have raised uniformly across quests on hard and elite, then the bar should be really high in Cabal at the trap chest - near impossible, it would seem, if the DC had jumped significantly. Found and disabled the trap. Disabled with a first roll hitting 75, where I believe the disable has been 72ish. So, this doesnt seem to have changed, or if it has, not by more than 3.

This thread is about the SAVE DC's for traps - ie the reflex you need to avoid getting skewered, sliced or diced.. Those have apparently increased.

The spot, search and disable was not supposed to have changed. Except, thankfully, they LOWERED the search in the Cabal one.

So not surprised by your results.

studentx
02-04-2008, 08:08 AM
Uhh, what are you talking about? The rogue is hardly all about traps and locks. That's not even its secondary contribution to a group, more like the tertiary. Rogues, at least good ones, add a lot of damage potential to the group as well as versatility in emergency back up roles through superior UMD. The fact that they can remove traps and locks is a nice benefit, but if its the only reason a rogue is brought along it shows a pretty poor understanding of the class.

Though it is sad how many of the players of rogues also have that same misconception..... *sigh*

Oh I understand what they can be. I've just had to drop lots of what they can be (enhancement and feat wise) in the last two mods to make the rogue a rouge/trap monkey.

I have no problems controlling my aggro and even though I'd never get a buff from a pug no biggie I buff myself or use that non-buffing caster as a ray/Disintegrate shield.

AkromaAoW
02-04-2008, 08:41 AM
This thread is about the SAVE DC's for traps - ie the reflex you need to avoid getting skewered, sliced or diced.. Those have apparently increased.

The spot, search and disable was not supposed to have changed. Except, thankfully, they LOWERED the search in the Cabal one.

So not surprised by your results.

Yes, the bulk of this thread is about saves and increased trap damage. However, if you read through all the posts, you'll find a couple that conjecture increased search and disable DC (one about Rogues needing extra buffs now to find/disable a trap in VON 5 on elite). Those are the ones I am addressing. I don't think that search and disable DC have changed (except possibly the search on Cabal, though it still remains high). Otherwise, I don't dispute that the DC for saves has increased...

Westerner
02-04-2008, 08:49 AM
I don't mind the several hundred damage.

But if the DCs are over 40, that could be a bit too much even for a Rogue.
/signed

I experienced this issue in CO6 elite, mephit chapter, where the box is on the far side of the trap. The full rogue was unable to make it across the trap via evasion and had to rely on twitch.

More trap dmg is fine, but the save DC's are off the charts.

Dirkan
02-04-2008, 09:52 AM
Keep in mind that if a rogue has died trying to get through the trap, then when he is rez'd on the other side he now has the new temporary debuff.

GeneralDiomedes
02-04-2008, 10:17 AM
A better solution would have been to increase the damage as they have, but have left the DCs alone, or only slightly increased them.

At least you can still get lucky and make it through if your party doesn't have a Rogue built exclusively for maximum reflex save. Has any other class besides Rogue been put through the reroll grinder as much? I am starting to feel sorry for them.

Beherit_Baphomar
02-04-2008, 10:23 AM
We all know that a level 12 elite is only 14 for purposes of loot. Elite adds more than +2 to the difficulty... probably more like +4 or even +5.

If you hover above the elite button on your popup you'll see what elite means...

GeneralDiomedes
02-04-2008, 10:28 AM
If you hover above the elite button on your popup you'll see what elite means...

Then why were only trap damage and reflex DCs increased and not everything else? The traps are now much harder than the mobs.

ArkoHighStar
02-04-2008, 10:31 AM
Then why were only trap damage and reflex DCs increased and not everything else?

In new content monsters were also made expontially more powerful

Beherit_Baphomar
02-04-2008, 10:31 AM
Then why were only trap damage and reflex DCs increased and not everything else?

What "everything else" doesnt become harder on elite?

GeneralDiomedes
02-04-2008, 10:34 AM
What "everything else" doesnt become harder on elite?

On old content, the traps were made harder while nothing else was. Like I said before, the traps are now much harder than the mobs which to me seems like a shoddy bit of balancing.

Westerner
02-04-2008, 11:01 AM
At least you can still get lucky and make it through if your party doesn't have a Rogue built exclusively for maximum reflex save. Has any other class besides Rogue been put through the reroll grinder as much? I am starting to feel sorry for them.
Emphasizing the trapsmithing capabilities of full rogues vs multiclass rogues is probably a good thing. However, raising the save DC's too high might have the opposite effect. Search/Disable DC's haven't changed, and multiclass rogues can still do just as good a job in most cases. On boxes that require Evasion, since the save is now impractical for everyone, those who've invested the most in it (i.e. full rogues) get devalued the most.

Mad_Bombardier
02-04-2008, 11:58 AM
A better solution would have been to increase the damage as they have, but have left the DCs alone, or only slightly increased them.

At least you can still get lucky and make it through if your party doesn't have a Rogue built exclusively for maximum reflex save. Has any other class besides Rogue been put through the reroll grinder as much? I am starting to feel sorry for them.I agree there. It's not so good when a maximum Reflex build has a 50/50 chance of getting through. The rest of us need to roll a 20 (and low HP builds will die from half damage anyway).

Angelus_dead
02-04-2008, 11:58 AM
If you hover above the elite button on your popup you'll see what elite means...
I know what it means- apparently you don't.

Beherit_Baphomar
02-04-2008, 12:01 PM
On old content, the traps were made harder while nothing else was. Like I said before, the traps are now much harder than the mobs which to me seems like a shoddy bit of balancing.

There has been shoddy balancing since we ran Waterworks. Normal Waterworks at level 1 is fine and dandy, elite Waterworks at level 1 and you gotta play smart...Normal Prison of the Planes at level14 is a cakewalk, elite PoP at level14 is a cakewalk.

Kaboth
02-04-2008, 12:07 PM
Quite honestly, I feel that a quest on Elite, you SHOULD need to have classes along to get past it. A well balanced group, not all arcane, not all of X etc... I think a trap or two on elite that make people flinch without a rogue is a GOOD thing.

Grond
02-04-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm guessing that elite shouldn't be the default setting for quests anymore. I'm guessing if you want to deal with elite traps you probably need an elite trapsmith.

Turial
02-04-2008, 12:14 PM
The question is does that elite trapsmith have uses other then hopefully surviving the elite trap and disarming it? Some of the trapsmith builds I have played with couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag much less against elite mobs. (Note I said some, not all)

dragnmoon
02-04-2008, 12:16 PM
Quite honestly, I feel that a quest on Elite, you SHOULD need to have classes along to get past it. A well balanced group, not all arcane, not all of X etc... I think a trap or two on elite that make people flinch without a rogue is a GOOD thing.

From what I am hearing... My 16 Rogue Will be having problems making saves on Elite!!.. Kind of sucks getting killed by the trap getting to the box. I think the highest i can get my Reflex save is 30

I think the only combo that is good on elite are Pallie/Rogues..

dragnmoon
02-04-2008, 04:34 PM
From what I am hearing... My 16 Rogue Will be having problems making saves on Elite!!.. Kind of sucks getting killed by the trap getting to the box. I think the highest i can get my Reflex save is 30

I think the only combo that is good on elite are Pallie/Rogues..

I would Like to change this...

I can actually get my save Vs Traps to at least +40 maybe higher if I am missing adding something.

Looking forward to testing The traps on Elite...(not really :D:p)

Vormaerin
02-04-2008, 09:00 PM
Hmmm, apparently it wasn't an accident that the DCs went up. The dev in the latest DDOcast mentioned 'higher damage and save DCs' on traps at one point during a discussion on harder content. So maybe it was on purpose..which is scary. It didn't sound like something they thought needed changing. Hopefully I'm wrong about that. Damage that's actually scary at that level? Heck, yes. DCs only really contorted builds could manage? No, thanks.

Westerner
02-05-2008, 02:50 AM
If the devs dont fix this, one way to partially adapt might be with protection from energy spells. Did the trick for tonight on Deleras Elite. Fire shield might help, too.

studentx
02-05-2008, 03:17 AM
There has been shoddy balancing since we ran Waterworks. Normal Waterworks at level 1 is fine and dandy, elite Waterworks at level 1 and you gotta play smart...Normal Prison of the Planes at level14 is a cakewalk, elite PoP at level14 is a cakewalk.

Several quests do not allow you to play smart, at least trap wise. You MUST STAND IN THE TRAP(S) TO DISABLE THE BOX. When you do that you MUST save vs a 40 on reflex or DIE.

ELITE POP has no traps that can be disarmed, capisci?

Shade
02-05-2008, 04:17 AM
Ran von 5 today with a group on elite. The rogue couldn't disarm the trap by the last door, or pick the lock for that matter, because he kept dying in the trap.

So the rogue sucked. What was he doing on an elite quest?

It's entirely possible to unlock and open the door without getting by the trap a single time. All it takes it proper timing and jump skill. The trap can't be disabled without getting hit directly - but the trap auto disables once the door is open, and you can then disable the box afterwards if you want the bonus XP for it.

The same thing applies to almost every trap I can think of. I can't think of a single one you where you MUST get hit by to disable it.

Shade
02-05-2008, 04:21 AM
Several quests do not allow you to play smart, at least trap wise. You MUST STAND IN THE TRAP(S) TO DISABLE THE BOX. When you do that you MUST save vs a 40 on reflex or DIE.


No they do not. Name one, I will tell you how to do it without getting hit.

Yes some of the save DCs are impossible to make - there designed to be. There is 2 days to make traps deadly for elite players:
A) Low save DC - but killed in 1 hit no matter what, even if you have 700hp if you fail the save... Pretty lame because it means any noob with 2 rogue levels can pull off elite traps.
B) How it is now. Mega high DC - only the most elite uber high reflex save rogues can save - But only semi-high dmg, high HP characters can survivie thru them... But your average 2 rogue splash cannot. Splashs aren't meant to be effective on elite.

The 2nd way is much better imo, as it allows for some margin of error.

studentx
02-05-2008, 04:21 AM
So the rogue sucked. What was he doing on an elite quest?

It's entirely possible to unlock and open the door without getting by the trap a single time. All it takes it proper timing and jump skill. The trap can't be disabled without getting hit - but the trap auto disables once the door is open, and you can then disable the box afterwards if you want the bonus XP for it.

The same thing applies to almost every trap I can think of. I can't think of a single one you where you MUST get hit by to disable it.

Lightening/spinners hallway same quest.

And of course there is a few quests you have to jump through/over the traps to get to the box. Cabal and if I remember correctly Rainbow. Then there are the run/swim/jump/hop/tumble through traps to get x item ...scoundrel and crucible.

Shade
02-05-2008, 04:26 AM
I agree there. It's not so good when a maximum Reflex build has a 50/50 chance of getting through. The rest of us need to roll a 20 (and low HP builds will die from half damage anyway).

Well theres no comprimize due to enhancements.

A specialized agile trapsmith has well over 50 reflex save, but low hp. Your well average paladin has 30. Thats 20 points of difference which means if the DC is 50 - the rogue makes it 95% and its a joke for him - not elite at all.. The paladin can't make the save at all and will die.

How it is now makes sense imo. The traps deal enough dmg to kill non-elite players in 1 shot, elite high hp ones can survive 2-3 hits. Having 2 rogue levels doesn't make you imune like it does on normal. All fair things for elite players.

Shade
02-05-2008, 04:28 AM
Lightening/spinners hallway same quest.

100% doable without getting hit. I have personally done it over a dozen times.

It's actually really simple, all you need to do is first jump OVER the lightning trap, land in JUST the right spots - its around a 3 step margin of error,
disable the first box - after that is a cakewalk.. You just alternate sides as the boxes disable the blades on the oposite side.. Lightning traps can be jumped over or timed.

studentx
02-05-2008, 04:30 AM
100% doable without getting hit. I have personally done it over a dozen times.

It's actually really simple, all you need to do is first jump OVER the lightning trap, land in JUST the right spots - its around a 3 step margin of error,
disable the first box - after that is a cakewalk.. You just alternate sides as the boxes disable the blades on the oposite side.. Lightning traps can be jumped over or timed.

yes yes but the first box. =) and ideally you have a rogue that searches well and safely.

And one of the left spots is no longer safe (the one with the box that is supposed to be to the right of the next set of traps). I watched a splash leveler get blended standing at it. (And the blades looked like they weren't able to touch her.)

Shade
02-05-2008, 04:35 AM
yes yes but the first box. =) and ideally you have a rogue that searches well and safely.

And one of the left spots is no longer safe I watched a splash leveler get blended standing in it.

I was explaining the first box. Personally I do all 1 side at a time as its faster, there is a safe spot next to every box even without alternating.

He was standing in the wrong spot.

studentx
02-05-2008, 04:50 AM
I was explaining the first box. Personally I do all 1 side at a time as its faster, there is a safe spot next to every box even without alternating.

He was standing in the wrong spot.

I'll just have to go check the spots myself, but I know what I saw.

studentx
02-05-2008, 05:09 AM
Personally I do all 1 side at a time as its faster, there is a safe spot next to every box even without alternating.

yes as every good trap monkey does. note: good not even elite.

Hvymetal
02-05-2008, 05:13 AM
No they do not. Name one, I will tell you how to do it without getting hit.

Yes some of the save DCs are impossible to make - there designed to be. There is 2 days to make traps deadly for elite players:
A) Low save DC - but killed in 1 hit no matter what, even if you have 700hp if you fail the save... Pretty lame because it means any noob with 2 rogue levels can pull off elite traps.
B) How it is now. Mega high DC - only the most elite uber high reflex save rogues can save - But only semi-high dmg, high HP characters can survivie thru them... But your average 2 rogue splash cannot. Splashs aren't meant to be effective on elite.

The 2nd way is much better imo, as it allows for some margin of error.Actually the way it is now encourages splashing pally levels to max out saves, doesn't seem right to pigeon hole elite trapsmiths into x/3 Rogue/Pally builds.......

Shade
02-05-2008, 05:44 AM
Actually the way it is now encourages splashing pally levels to max out saves, doesn't seem right to pigeon hole elite trapsmiths into x/3 Rogue/Pally builds.......

I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.

studentx
02-05-2008, 05:46 AM
I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.

Not before level 10 which was what we were initially talking about in this thread. To which you responded the elite players have memorized the safe spots and the spells necessary to get to for every quest.

Hvymetal
02-05-2008, 06:10 AM
I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.

Aye, some of the 30-40's range DC's beiong discussed are on <10th level quests on Elite. I believe a level 1 quest on Elite had REF DC's in the 30's.....

Shade
02-05-2008, 06:21 AM
Yea low lvl sounds pretty cool now I will lvl up my low guy and do some elite stuff for fun.
They should increase the high lvl save DCs and dmg a bit more tho, even the new lvl16 elite quest traps are not coming close to killing my barbarian. I can fall into that spike pit in rainbow or acid pit later in the quest and im fine. The spikes in let sleeping dust lie don't even phase me, I fight the ogres while standing on them. Can't remember any traps in the other quests.. Well shroud traps - horrid wiltings pretty decent dmg, but really easy to dodge those runes.

Primatic wall is the true example of what all traps should be.

It just kills you - no save, no roll, no damage - YOU ARE DEAD!
Far as im concerned all high lvl elite traps should kill you. Not do XXX dmg if you dont save vs XX.. They should just kill you. No save your dead. Thats it. You only hope is to dodge it or get the rogue to deal with it.

Also when they kill you should be sent to a penalty box like the new raid, no ressurecting allowed. Permanently killed by the trap until say its disabled or the end of the quest.

Emili
02-05-2008, 06:39 AM
Yea low lvl sounds pretty cool now I will lvl up my low guy and do some elite stuff for fun.
They should increase the high lvl save DCs and dmg a bit more tho, even the new lvl16 elite quest traps are not coming close to killing my barbarian. I can fall into that spike pit in rainbow or acid pit later in the quest and im fine. The spikes in let sleeping dust lie don't even phase me, I fight the ogres while standing on them. Can't remember any traps in the other quests.. Well shroud traps - horrid wiltings pretty decent dmg, but really easy to dodge those runes.

Primatic wall is the true example of what all traps should be.

It just kills you - no save, no roll, no damage - YOU ARE DEAD!
Far as im concerned all high lvl elite traps should kill you. Not do XXX dmg if you dont save vs XX.. They should just kill you. No save your dead. Thats it. You only hope is to dodge it or get the rogue to deal with it.

Also when they kill you should be sent to a penalty box like the new raid, no ressurecting allowed. Permanently killed by the trap until say its disabled or the end of the quest.

While I agree with much of this... it does pigeon-hole a class into being built tight one way which of course invalidates what DnD is suppose to be. To get a rogue built this way you must through a lot od feats and enhancements at it thus it makes the rest of the enhancements obsolete in a sense for that class - thus useless - thus they may as well take them out of the game or should never have them in the game at all.

You talk about elite as if it's a player thing... this is not a player thing it is a build spec thing and has nothing to do with your ability as a player. So now we have all thes rogues out there respecing to figure in improved trap sense IV and luck and a few other things into thier builds.

Hvymetal
02-05-2008, 07:13 AM
While I agree with much of this... it does pigeon-hole a class into being built tight one way which of course invalidates what DnD is suppose to be. To get a rogue built this way you must through a lot od feats and enhancements at it thus it makes the rest of the enhancements obsolete in a sense for that class - thus useless - thus they may as well take them out of the game or should never have them in the game at all.

You talk about elite as if it's a player thing... this is not a player thing it is a build spec thing and has nothing to do with your ability as a player. So now we have all thes rogues out there respecing to figure in improved trap sense IV and luck and a few other things into thier builds.
Well althoug Shade does play a good Barb, he has seemed to fall into the Elite Gear + Build = Elite Player mold......

Vormaerin
02-05-2008, 07:17 AM
I'm not especially fond of the "quest memorization = skill" theory going on here, either. I know that 'die, die, die until I figure it out' is a gaming lifestyle, but I'd rather it wasn't enforced by the game mechanics quite as blatantly as Shade is espousing.

Talcyndl
02-05-2008, 07:23 AM
Yes, the bulk of this thread is about saves and increased trap damage. However, if you read through all the posts, you'll find a couple that conjecture increased search and disable DC (one about Rogues needing extra buffs now to find/disable a trap in VON 5 on elite). Those are the ones I am addressing. I don't think that search and disable DC have changed (except possibly the search on Cabal, though it still remains high). Otherwise, I don't dispute that the DC for saves has increased...

I'll take the explicit statement in the release notes that the search and disable DCs haven't changed, over the conjecture.

llevenbaxx
02-05-2008, 11:28 AM
In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100&#37; dedicated to doing so. On normal or hard, traps can be handled by those who "splash" rogue. On elite, it really should require builds that are designed to do something ... traps, spell DCs, etc.

You get 12 slots in a raid. Pick up a trapsmith. Just my humble opinion ....

Thats great, if you like playing a full out trapsmith. Out of my three MC rogues, two are/will be nearly pure. Trapsmithing is(was:rolleyes:) a small part of what a rogue does. If DDO all of the sudden makes trapsmithing only something a specific build can do on elite, the class just went from my favorite, to my least favorite. Pure trapsmith = extremely simple/boring character to play imho.

This is custom content for a custom build. Will think it a mistake until I hear different from a Dev. Then Ill just think its poor development.:)

tigerheart_iv
02-05-2008, 11:35 AM
Just a thought but the traps should makes sense with the mobs involved in the dungeon. Higher end content should be a challenge to all classes to overcome. But honestly can a lvl5 kobold somehow miraculously devise a trap that would hurt a lich

Tanka
02-05-2008, 11:39 AM
Just a thought but the traps should makes sense with the mobs involved in the dungeon. Higher end content should be a challenge to all classes to overcome. But honestly can a lvl5 kobold somehow miraculously devise a trap that would hurt a lich
Well, if this were PnP, the Lich could Charm the kobold and have it disable the trap itself.

But since it isn't PnP, then, yeah, I guess we should be hiring kobolds to beat the Abbot.

Impaqt
02-05-2008, 11:51 AM
I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.

What are you Smoking? Do you even have a Rogue?

Most Rogues dont come close to a 60 Reflex Save.... more like 40ish if you want to do more than "Just Traps" and quite frankly, Groups dont want trapsmsith rogues in their Groups. If they get a Rogue, Its nice if they can do the traps, but they want DPS (Cause the barbarian just isnt doing his job usually)

I designed a MAX save Rogue.. Had to Splash Paly and Take a Bunch of Feats to get it up to 73. Most people feel the build is incredibly Gimped.... But to make saves consistantly in the Vale on Elite right now, THats what you need.....

llevenbaxx
02-05-2008, 11:57 AM
What are you Smoking? Do you even have a Rogue?

Most Rogues dont come close to a 60 Reflex Save.... more like 40ish if you want to do more than "Just Traps" and quite frankly, Groups dont want trapsmsith rogues in their Groups. If they get a Rogue, Its nice if they can do the traps, but they want DPS (Cause the barbarian just isnt doing his job usually)

I designed a MAX save Rogue.. Had to Splash Paly and Take a Bunch of Feats to get it up to 73. Most people feel the build is incredibly Gimped.... But to make saves consistantly in the Vale on Elite right now, THats what you need.....

Is that just using your rogue capabilities, or is that with just about every buff that any class can cast. Seems like they are figuring every single buff possible on top of what a rogue would alone have. I realize that a rogue can cast just about any buff via scroll, thats what it seems they are figuring around. Im starting to hate the trashy falsely inflating enhancement system again...

Devs, feel free to shed some light on this topic... devs?...

GeneralDiomedes
02-05-2008, 11:59 AM
There is an upside however .. mobs die much faster in their own traps :D

Mad_Bombardier
02-05-2008, 12:18 PM
I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.Do you mind sharing how? Just toying with the numbers, I'm hitting a max of +51 Reflex save for Halfling Rogue16. And splashing Rogue13/Paladin3 nets a +59 Reflex save.

Update: with Resilience, Lightning Reflexes, and Luck of Heroes max +58 Reflex for Halfling Rogue 16. Max +66 Reflex for Halfling Rogue13/Paladin3.

Crarites
02-05-2008, 12:22 PM
Do you mind sharing how? Just toying with the numbers, I'm hitting a max of +51 Reflex save for Halfling Rogue16. And splashing Rogue13/Paladin3 nets a +59 Reflex save.

Did you take resiliance as a feat?

Mad_Bombardier
02-05-2008, 12:27 PM
Did you take resiliance as a feat?Nope. Thanks, Crarites! :) (Didn't take any of the other saves feats either.)


P.S. As to the above 95% success ≠ Elite comment, if someone spends most of their feats and enhancements on a particular aspect of the game, they ARE a highly specialized, Elite build and should be able to succeed 95% of the time.

Impaqt
02-05-2008, 12:27 PM
Do you mind sharing how? Just toying with the numbers, I'm hitting a max of +51 Reflex save for Halfling Rogue16. And splashing Rogue13/Paladin3 nets a +59 Reflex save.

My DeathDealer is considered a Pretty Solid Build...... Has always held her own in ELite level content... Keeps up with The Sorcs in Kill COunt, Hits al the trap Search and Disable DC's and is Mostly ROgue.. (Level 16 Bring her to 11Rogue/3Ranger/2Fighter)

So Primarily Reflex Class based.....

WIth GH, Recitation, Uncanny Dodge, a +4 Resistance Item, Head of Good Fortune, and a 34 Dex her Reflex is 47Vs Traps Factoring in +3 Trap Sense fromLevels and +3 Trap Sense from ENH.. I HATE Spending those Action points on Trap Sense as it dropped my DPS a bit.... But had to be done...
I'd love to see how staying pure rogue would keep me "Elite" and push that Reflex save 13 more points....

Edit: BTW M_B, Heres my 72 Bufed Reflex Save Halfling ROgue/Paly Build...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134718

llevenbaxx
02-05-2008, 02:09 PM
Would be nice to have any official word on this very important issue. Seems to be some hard numbers in the thread which you would think might be enough to give a "Working as intended" or "Omfg thats not right!" Anyone in charge of traps anymore? Or is that the temps present charge in Rockings stead?

miceelf88
02-05-2008, 02:18 PM
Don't you get it? They've "fixed" the traps now, there's no need for them to revisit them. Elite means elite.

They're all busy working on upping the will and fort and reflex saves of all monsters on elite, so that the kobolds in waterworks on elite to about 35, 30, 50. After all, elite should MEAN something!!! Those casters who want to cast spells they're not completely specced for, well, SOL.

Next, will be the AC and HP of the goodblades quest monsters on elite. They should be at least 40 and 700, respectively. Cause, you know, elite should mean something. Oh, and DR. They all need DR.

There's a lot of work to be done to make the game less inviting and enjoyable, to satisfy the l33t crowd. So don't hold your breath on devs getting back about trap save DCs

dragnmoon
02-05-2008, 02:20 PM
Would be nice to have any official word on this very important issue. Seems to be some hard numbers in the thread which you would think might be enough to give a "Working as intended" or "Omfg thats not right!" Anyone in charge of traps anymore? Or is that the temps present charge in Rockings stead?


Is the Rocking dead gone?... He has not posted in 4 months

Shade
02-05-2008, 05:38 PM
You talk about elite as if it's a player thing... this is not a player thing it is a build spec thing and has nothing to do with your ability as a player. So now we have all thes rogues out there respecing to figure in improved trap sense IV and luck and a few other things into thier builds.

Really not sure how you can logically think that if you any kind of gamer.

In every video game - difficulty settings are always bested by skilled players, players who know all the tricks. Nearly every rpg can be done on the highest setting at extremely low lvls by the true elite gamers - that is what Elite is.

Elite is 90% player skill, 5% quest knowledge and 5% character build. An elite player can play a very gimped character build and outshine 5 other average players playing perfectly build characters in any elite quest.

Elite is not,, oh no I need more XP to beat this. That doesn't work. A level10 crappy player group can't beat a quest like on threnal east part 3 elite. He also cannot do it at lvl16. But an elite player group can easily do it at lvl10.

Thats not how it works and it will never work that way.
Elite IS all about player skill.

Hvymetal
02-05-2008, 05:51 PM
Really not sure how you can logically think that if you any kind of gamer.

In every video game - difficulty settings are always bested by skilled players, players who know all the tricks. Nearly every rpg can be done on the highest setting at extremely low lvls by the true elite gamers - that is what Elite is.

Elite is 90% player skill, 5% quest knowledge and 5% character build. An elite player can play a very gimped character build and outshine 5 other average players playing perfectly build characters in any elite quest.

Elite is not,, oh no I need more XP to beat this. That doesn't work. A level10 crappy player group can't beat a quest like on threnal east part 3 elite. He also cannot do it at lvl16. But an elite player group can easily do it at lvl10.

Thats not how it works and it will never work that way.
Elite IS all about player skill.Don't we have a quest that was created for the super Elite crowd in which gear doesn't matter and player skill and teamwork along with knowledge & communication is more important than every thing else? So far all the l33t crowd has said about the new Abbot is complaints or crickets......

Shade
02-05-2008, 05:56 PM
Halfling Rogue level16:
Dex - 20 base + 4 lvls, 24 +6 item ,30, +3 tome, 33, +5 enhancement, 38, +2 greensteel wep, 40 = +15
Amount - Type
10 - Base
1 - Racial size bonus
15 - Dex
5 - Resistance (boots of the innocent)
2 - Luck (head of good fortune)
9 - Trapsense (5 base +4 enhance)
3 - Enhancement - Halfling luck 3
4 - Morale - Greater Hero
4 - Resiliance
4 - Feats: lightning reflex, luck of heroes, snake blood
57
+6 Uncanny Dodge boost (2:30 - 3:30 contious use with no inbetween cooldown at lvl16 - enough for even the most trap laden dungeon)
= 63 Reflex vs traps self buffed
Paladin Aura +4
= +67 if a paladin can stay near you in the trap (unlikely)
That uses most feats and about 30 AP of 64. You can go further tho:
Way of the thief acrobat = +4 dex or +2 more reflex for +65

My original character was a rogue, I stopped leveling him years ago as traps were too easy, I only take him on von5.. He has +40 something reflex, +50 something skills.. He's level 11.

Shade
02-05-2008, 06:00 PM
Don't we have a quest that was created for the super Elite crowd in which gear doesn't matter and player skill and teamwork along with knowledge & communication is more important than every thing else? So far all the l33t crowd has said about the new Abbot is complaints or crickets......
Reason is the phase puzzle is insanely hard even for the most elite players..

The rest of the quest is a fair challenge for elite players.

Well honestly the bigger reason I and allot of players don't give allot of time toward it is we already have allmost all the loot from there and none seems improved so far.

GeneralDiomedes
02-05-2008, 06:01 PM
Don't we have a quest that was created for the super Elite crowd in which gear doesn't matter and player skill and teamwork along with knowledge & communication is more important than every thing else? So far all the l33t crowd has said about the new Abbot is complaints or crickets......

Yup.

And I figure my Sorc can solo stuff at level mostly because he knows the mobs inside and out (saves, spells, weapon dmg types, immunities, etc.), perches, AI behaviour, etc and he thinks a lot about tactics based on that knowledge. In other words, he knows the game and he knows the quest.

And I also think a lot of folks have really forgotten what it's like to run with sub-standard gear.

MysticTheurge
02-05-2008, 06:43 PM
Elite is 90% player skill, 5% quest knowledge and 5% character build. An elite player can play a very gimped character build and outshine 5 other average players playing perfectly build characters in any elite quest.

Which may be where the problem arises.

These trap DC changes, especially in places where you have to run through or stand in the trap, make elite 90% character build, 5% quest knowledge and 5% player skill (if there's even that much player skill involved).

Vormaerin
02-05-2008, 07:16 PM
MT,

Shade asserts that there are no such traps. According to him, every trap can be dealt with by twitch skills and the character build is just a safety net in case you make a mistake. Though he'd be happy if every mistake was instant death no matter your build, apparently.

I don't think there is a big enough market for pure twitch play in this game to justify making such a high percentage of the content out of the reach of even good players with good characters. There are games built around dying until you learn the gimmick for the area, but I don't think any of them should be called D&D.

Pretty much everyone was happy about the increase in damage from hard and elite traps... bring them in line with the rest of the quest. But this DC thing is a joke. Yes, you can make characters that can do at least the disarmable traps 95% of the time. But how many people are going to actually want to play rogues build that way? And how many parties are going to want that kind of rogue on a non trap run?

Impaqt
02-05-2008, 07:32 PM
Halfling Rogue level16:
Dex - 20 base + 4 lvls, 24 +6 item ,30, +3 tome, 33, +5 enhancement, 38, +2 greensteel wep, 40 = +15
Amount - Type
10 - Base
1 - Racial size bonus
15 - Dex
5 - Resistance (boots of the innocent)
2 - Luck (head of good fortune)
9 - Trapsense (5 base +4 enhance)
3 - Enhancement - Halfling luck 3
4 - Morale - Greater Hero
4 - Resiliance
4 - Feats: lightning reflex, luck of heroes, snake blood
57
+6 Uncanny Dodge boost (2:30 - 3:30 contious use with no inbetween cooldown at lvl16 - enough for even the most trap laden dungeon)
= 63 Reflex vs traps self buffed
Paladin Aura +4
= +67 if a paladin can stay near you in the trap (unlikely)
That uses most feats and about 30 AP of 64. You can go further tho:
Way of the thief acrobat = +4 dex or +2 more reflex for +65

My original character was a rogue, I stopped leveling him years ago as traps were too easy, I only take him on von5.. He has +40 something reflex, +50 something skills.. He's level 11.


ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

BUpcott
02-05-2008, 08:01 PM
ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

Shhh Shade knows all, silly boy!

redoubt
02-05-2008, 08:22 PM
ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

Well, Shade did say it was the max available. AND he went back to providing useful info instead of just spamming "elite is for elite and you guys aren't leet enough."

Knowing what the max attainable is important. From there we can adjust to what a normal, good and very good rogue should have. With that, we can look at setting the trap DCs correctly.

Vormaerin
02-05-2008, 08:34 PM
ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

Well, not that I'm supporting Shade's view of how the game should be but his rogue only has +40 because its only lvl 11 rather than capped like the rogue in the example.

Shade
02-05-2008, 09:23 PM
Yea i did a few more elite heavy trap quests where people often think you must get by the trap to get thru..

STK.. Part3 flame jets I asked for fire protect to be safe - but made it thru with my full fire protect still no, not a single hit. I went ahead and cleared the shrine and by the time I was done that the rogue had died to the trap, i took him to the shrine...

Greymoon final 2 parts flame + force trap - bit more difficult, but jumping into the center of the X patern force trap and timing the flame jets got me thru with no hits. Another way is to get up top and jump over, with haste, featherfall and 40 jump you will make it past the whole trap. Or 20ish jump + sprint boost I.

I think turbine was always pretty careful about always giving players alternate ways to bypass traps.

I used to think allot couldn't be either, but keep learning new ways to pull things off.

Actually for probably 40+ runs of the titan I didn't think you could disable every trap in there .. But one night this amazing rogue did it, even the top lightning traps in the purple side and final lightning traps where you don't even need to go, it was really cool.

Ofcourse disabling the shooter traps that the ogres control generally isn't a rogues job, but my barbarian does that quite well. I usually don't spend the tiem to dodge every trap, but it is definetely possible there too. Also you can still kill them thru the walls with some select spells.

Shade
02-05-2008, 09:26 PM
Is that rogue build super gimped? yep.

But im my experience less then 1&#37; of rogues contribute anything meaningul to a party in terms of both doing the traps perfectly AND helping on the combat in a meaningful manner...

So yea sometimes you have to choose.

I wouldn't make that rogue, I would rely on my twitch skill to survive traps rather then my characaters reflex score. I was just answered Mad_Bs post mostly.

I really never understood why traps even have reflex saves anyways, I mean logically it doesn't make any sense.

In PnP - if you roll to make a reflex save - that menas your character actually jumped out of the way of the fireball and only got slightly burned, or in the case of a agile rogue - completely avoided it... So if a trap CLEARLY hits us, how do we somehow take no damage? I mean we are often perfectly capable of dodging it on our own - that is the logical put behind ray spells, why not traps?

Mad_Bombardier
02-05-2008, 09:30 PM
I was just answered Mad_Bs post mostly.Yup, and thank you. I was really close with my numbers. Just forgot 2 things. :)

airbornerangers
02-05-2008, 10:01 PM
we had a capped lvl 14 rogue who died picking up the piece in the fire tunnel 3 or 4 times not sure now but he could not get there and back with the piece! i am talking about a lvl 7 quest on elite, a group of 6 lvl 14s trying to get our favor! i know elite should be harder, i agree with that totally! but all i am asking is for the non-elite player trying to get his favor and needing to do some of these quests on elite dropping 7 levels to get the quest done and not being able to without all trying to get to that piece cause we needed it to finish quest, how are we non-uber people to do it? i am trying to be diplomatic but if you are so uber and all ready have your favor building 32 point builds getting all those +3tomes, then how is it we are not uber or worth playing with? I am just asking because i went to another server and have built a pretty good 28 point sorc trying to get my favor and help other newbs like myself who dont have +6 stat enhancement items for every stat and are just trying to get to the high end content so we can try to be uber also?

Shade
02-05-2008, 10:08 PM
we had a capped lvl 14 rogue who died picking up the piece in the fire tunnel 3 or 4 times not sure now but he could not get there and back with the piece! i am talking about a lvl 7 quest on elite, a group of 6 lvl 14s trying to get our favor! i know elite should be harder, i agree with that totally! but all i am asking is for the non-elite player trying to get his favor and needing to do some of these quests on elite dropping 7 levels to get the quest done and not being able to without all trying to get to that piece cause we needed it to finish quest, how are we non-uber people to do it? i am trying to be diplomatic but if you are so uber and all ready have your favor building 32 point builds getting all those +3tomes, then how is it we are not uber or worth playing with? I am just asking because i went to another server and have built a pretty good 28 point sorc trying to get my favor and help other newbs like myself who dont have +6 stat enhancement items for every stat and are just trying to get to the high end content so we can try to be uber also?

If your level14 doing this, don't send the rogue. Send the barbarian. Toss him a fire resist, fire protect, haste and tell him to use his sprint boost and uncanny dodge. He will be absolutely fine.

GlassCannon
02-05-2008, 11:24 PM
It's a proven fact:

Higher saves cause you to roll more 1's inherently.

I proved in in Demon Queen with a tally of the number of sequential 1's I rolled.

37 was my largest streak without death.

The streak continued until the 70th roll was something other than a 1.

GlassCannon
02-06-2008, 03:45 AM
I just ran a level 9 quest on Elite on my Ranger 16.

Her saves are very high for her level and class(considering all the melee rangers out there).

She failed a save on a roll of 7(+36), and took 120 damage.

That's enough to outright kill a person level appropriate for the quest.

That's freaking insane.

Not in a good way.



What I proposed by Deadly Traps thread was traps that *WE* can set. Traps that *WE* can interrupt the setting of. I did not by any means imply the changing of any existing traps.

The Save DC has been boosted beyond anything any normal character would ever save against. That is in error. Fix it.

The Damage dealt by the trap is more realistic, but is still EXTREMELY HIGH for the quest level. Balance it out. Fix it. We can't have a lost cleric blundering into a trap she gets hit by once and loses more than her max HP doubled in one shot.

Vormaerin
02-06-2008, 03:55 AM
Well, I don't have a problem with elite traps one shotting characters. Presumably 'lost clerics' shouldn't be doing elite quests. I'm not in the only the .01% of the gamers should be doing elite crowd, but it should require a bit more than that lost cleric example..

But the DCs do need to be something that a reasonable rogue of the level intended should have. That's better than splashes or rangers would have, since rogues will have Trap sense on top of their high dex and ref saves. Maybe a bit higher, so the rogues seriously consider trap sense enhancements (did anyone take those before?). But if the character needs to devote feats to ref save on top of max dex and enhancements, that's too much focus on one thing. Especially since that one thing is only relevant in a fraction of the quests (many quests have no traps, others have only traps you can disarm without needing a huge ref save or twitch skill).

Hard difficulty in particular is too much, since it doesn't have any of the "best of the best" connotations. And the ref saves there are pretty wicked, too.

HumanJHawkins
02-06-2008, 11:24 AM
In PnP - if you roll to make a reflex save - that menas your character actually jumped out of the way of the fireball and only got slightly burned, or in the case of a agile rogue - completely avoided it... So if a trap CLEARLY hits us, how do we somehow take no damage? I mean we are often perfectly capable of dodging it on our own - that is the logical put behind ray spells, why not traps?

Because not every player has exactly the same DEX as their character. Nor the same INT apparently...

Emili
02-06-2008, 01:47 PM
Really not sure how you can logically think that if you any kind of gamer.

In every video game - difficulty settings are always bested by skilled players, players who know all the tricks. Nearly every rpg can be done on the highest setting at extremely low lvls by the true elite gamers - that is what Elite is.

Elite is 90&#37; player skill, 5% quest knowledge and 5% character build. An elite player can play a very gimped character build and outshine 5 other average players playing perfectly build characters in any elite quest.

Elite is not,, oh no I need more XP to beat this. That doesn't work. A level10 crappy player group can't beat a quest like on threnal east part 3 elite. He also cannot do it at lvl16. But an elite player group can easily do it at lvl10.

Thats not how it works and it will never work that way.
Elite IS all about player skill.

LOL, this is completely bogus... it's more 40% quests knowledge, 50% just paying attention and 10% build to make up for the mistake taken by the so-called l33t player. and while this is totally opinion I know I'm in the correct ballpark as I've been in this game forever your socalled player skill only relies on the knowledge what the toon's capabilites are and applying it to the current situation. I know this for a fact as I took so many a green bad player and passed onto them them knowledge to allow them to mature into a good player if not l33t. Outside typical raid flagging I live in elite setting quests and I've played with the best of players and also the worst, and to be completely honest those who fall into my best of player lists actually are not depited by thier motor skills or knowledge either bescausee some of those people are actually the worst of players because of thier attitudes with quiests the game and more importantly thier attitude towards others who do not possess thier same skill. I tout myself as a people person, I am a social creature and my enjoyment of the game is in meeting people and making friends although I've been on occassion called ubber, l33t and power gaming surger myself I deny it every time as I do not like the stigma as I'm not in this for myself or pixils I'm here to have fun with others. A few hours into the new mod I was raid ready with my main and a friend from another guild sent me a tell about any of my toons or guild being raid ready to come help... but I passed on it because I was more concerned with helping others get flagged also.

I am still touting this is a bad thing as it forces people to build a certain way. Anytime you set numbers at the far end of the spectrum it comes down to building a certain way.

I only play elite (outside flagging for a raid quickly) and I do not want elite to denote who I want to bring with me into the bloody quest... I want to bring anyone who applies not post some lists of - good/bad - players based on my experiences with them in the past, or second guessing how someone I do not know is going to play... when I do a quest I am not going to sit there and scrutinize every bloody applicant responding to my lfm nor am I going to demeand only complete guild runs... nor will i shut people out guildy or pug because they may not be up to snuff sometimes. I am here to have fun, not to babysit, I will share any knowledge I have with others as they have with myself... I do not exclude people from quests based on build, status as a player or anything as such... and everyone coming along with me will reap the satisfaction of finishing the quest on elite because I'm that damn bloody persistant. As long as I have everyone with me the elite quest presses on. Despite thier impecable (or not) twitch skill, despite thier knowledge or build - the quest will be completed.

Rissten
02-06-2008, 01:54 PM
40 isn't a hard mark for a rogue of equal level to the quest. Shoot my LVL 7/2/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter hits 42 on her DD and 40 search. Not so rediculous IMO. A pure rogue should hit even higher. With a 40 that is a 0% failure on elite.


he's not referring to the DD check but the reflex save. I have an evasion pally with a 32 reflex save 36 with GH and a 41 with a kardins eye and I failed on a roll of 15 in rainbow on hard for 260 points of damage. (good thing I have more HP then most tanks.)

Westerner
02-06-2008, 01:59 PM
LOL, this is completely bogus... it's more 40&#37; quests knowledge, 50% just paying attention and 10% build to make up for the mistake taken by the so-called l33t player. and while this is totally opinion I know I'm in the correct ballpark as I've been in this game forever your socalled player skil only relies on the knowledge that you know what the toon's capabilites. I know this for a fact as I took so many a green bad player and passed onto them them knowledge to allow them to mature into a good player if not l33t.
I agree that quest knowledge and paying attention are very important. I've been in the game 3 months, not nearly as long as some, but so far I'd break down quest effectiveness as:

30% prior quest knowledge
30% paying attention (includes being careful, playing as a team etc.)
20% gear
20% build

ArkoHighStar
02-06-2008, 02:05 PM
If your level14 doing this, don't send the rogue. Send the barbarian. Toss him a fire resist, fire protect, haste and tell him to use his sprint boost and uncanny dodge. He will be absolutely fine.

have you tried it because your protection will be gone after the first flame and I doubt you will make the save even after uncanny dodge

so given 600 hps if you get hit with 4 flames you are toast

ArkoHighStar
02-06-2008, 02:09 PM
Is that rogue build super gimped? yep.

But im my experience less then 1% of rogues contribute anything meaningul to a party in terms of both doing the traps perfectly AND helping on the combat in a meaningful manner...

So yea sometimes you have to choose.

I wouldn't make that rogue, I would rely on my twitch skill to survive traps rather then my characaters reflex score. I was just answered Mad_Bs post mostly.

I really never understood why traps even have reflex saves anyways, I mean logically it doesn't make any sense.

In PnP - if you roll to make a reflex save - that menas your character actually jumped out of the way of the fireball and only got slightly burned, or in the case of a agile rogue - completely avoided it... So if a trap CLEARLY hits us, how do we somehow take no damage? I mean we are often perfectly capable of dodging it on our own - that is the logical put behind ray spells, why not traps?


because this is using the mechanics of calculating whether your character would have been able to jump out of the way and not the player with the fastest twitch skills. Which is why I find it hilarious that a cleric with a 1 balance can do the beams in von 4 with no problem, you should be making balance checks and falling off if you fail

Emili
02-06-2008, 02:23 PM
have you tried it because your protection will be gone after the first flame and I doubt you will make the save even after uncanny dodge

so given 600 hps if you get hit with 4 flames you are toast

Haste and timing are actually key here... there are a few safe spots when you hit bottom (one to the corner right of the valve if you were looking straight on it) then it's a matter of truning the valve to open the door and backspace target and hitting th U key to get the idol piece on time on the way out. This is how I used to do it on my non-evasion classes at lower level while solo'ing it in the past and am sure the timing remains the same on these traps. I will have to attempt this again now but am pretty sure it still works.

My biggest gripe about this is that the players with prior knowledge learned these things early on while the people who are green will have to learn these things the hard way ... thus this is a discourgement to them.

GORAK
02-06-2008, 02:43 PM
I like the extreme increase in trap damage and reflex saving throws as it allows a rogue to be more useful and invited into parties more often. It puts more usefulness into the class and more viability for them in quests overall. People complain about the insane trap damage, a level 9 elite quest whose trap damage is killing level 14 and 16 characters, and save DC's well into the 30's or even 40. Well, all the more to have the rogue in the quest to find and disarm that trap so nobody has to die. The one significant point mentioned in this entire thread where the new "deathtrap" rules become somewhat broken are in those dungeons where the boxes are past the trap, NOT before it. It's this scenario where a level 10 rogue's improved evasion and hopefully high reflexes scores can not reach the Reflex DC reliably enough to bypass it that becomes a serious issue. Even more so in those specific dungeons where the rogue actually has to be inside part of the trap area (Von5) to disarm it.
So you're worried about the "death trap" in a specific quest where everyone's gonna die over and over to pass it. Well, pickup a decent rogue and the problem is solved and nobody needs to die. Where it really becomes entertaining is when those zerging barbarians charge forward through the trap thinking their 300+ hp's will save them and then you hear a beep sound and read, "Your party member, the stupid barbarian, has died." Now that's funny :-)
Another important point was mentioned when someone stated that the new death traps are more powerful than the mobs. Well, that can be a good thing for an evasion build or a good rogue with evasion, high reflex, good resists/protections/buffs and a jump spell. Bait and pull the mobs through the elite traps and see most, if not all of them, die from one pass through it. It makes a good number of dungeons a lot easier if you are clever enough to use the tactic properly.

Taojeff
02-06-2008, 03:07 PM
Trap DC's on Level 12 missions in the 40's ? 200+ points of damage?

Oh yes let's not forget about the PHAT loot now available on elite. +1 Sacred Heavy Steel Shield of Lesser Lightning Resistance...

So do you think at some point you dev's can come back to reality and start making some sense? Yes, a Level 16 should be able to breeze through a level 12 mission.

Turbine sure goes a long way to slow people down. It must be saving them a ton of money on development costs. Fine job of that, seeing as how your new raid you spent 4 months working on was beaten in what, 3 days?

40 seems about right, and 200 hitpoints also seems very fair.

The traps should be lethal to squishies with only the toughest Surviving.

The Traps were put there to kill intruders, not annoy them

Angelus_dead
02-06-2008, 04:01 PM
The traps should be lethal to squishies with only the toughest Surviving.
Uh no.

If you take a level 4 quest and put it on elite, then bring in a level 16 wizard who is SO overlevel that he can kill the red-named ogre boss in melee... that guy should be able to survive a trip through the traps in the same quest.

It doesn't make sense for the traps in a quest to be seriously 50 times as lethal as the other threats it contains. That's just not balanced... it means that when players are doing favor runs of low-level quests, they'll need to bring in rogues for 10-20 seconds of work here and there, while aside from that any single level 16 player can solo the whole place with his eyes closed.

Impaqt
02-06-2008, 04:08 PM
have you tried it because your protection will be gone after the first flame and I doubt you will make the save even after uncanny dodge

so given 600 hps if you get hit with 4 flames you are toast

Not Shade... Shade doesnt even need resists/Buffs.. Hes so good he can just long jump over all the firetraps (At the same time) land in the "Safe Spot" then Long jump out....

Everyone knows D&D is all about Twitch gaming skills.... Its got nothing to do with playing a Character you create.

ArkoHighStar
02-06-2008, 04:21 PM
Haste and timing are actually key here... there are a few safe spots when you hit bottom (one to the corner right of the valve if you were looking straight on it) then it's a matter of truning the valve to open the door and backspace target and hitting th U key to get the idol piece on time on the way out. This is how I used to do it on my non-evasion classes at lower level while solo'ing it in the past and am sure the timing remains the same on these traps. I will have to attempt this again now but am pretty sure it still works.

My biggest gripe about this is that the players with prior knowledge learned these things early on while the people who are green will have to learn these things the hard way ... thus this is a discourgement to them.


I understand the timing, but that says more about a players twitch skills than the skills oif his character. If all it takes is the right timing on any trap then what is the point of having a reflex save to begin with. The fact is this is a game simulating a characters ability to avoid danger, the lecel of this ability is based on an artificial number called a reflex save that is pitted against a trap that also has an artificial number called a difficulty check. Whether someone takes damage or not is should be strictly determined based on that calculation, so timing your movements because you know the sequence is not a fair indicator of your chracters ability to save against those traps

Pellegro
02-06-2008, 05:00 PM
If I understand this correctly, the complaint is that the traps on elite are hitting for too much damage, and the DC to save on the trap going off is too high.

Let's pretend for a moment that this is by design. What could the devs be trying to achieve?

Perhaps they want traps to be lethal on elite. Perhaps, on elite, they expect you to bring a balanced party, including a rogue. Perhaps, they are saying "hey, if you do it on elite, running through traps isn't an option". So you have to either disable them, or find a way around them.

Seems reasonable so far.

A bit trickier are the traps that you have to trigger in order to disable, or that you have to trigger in order to accomplish something else, or that cannot be disabled but you have to just go through. For some of those situations, I think they should go back and make an adjustment. For others, maybe they're expecting you to use a non-squishy to make the accomplishment.

But it seems to me that the most productive way to highlight this issue for Turbine is to give them the specific quest, the specific trap, and an explanation for why they should go in and adjust it.

Generic complaints that the traps hurt too much aren't likely going to incite action.

winsom
02-06-2008, 05:49 PM
I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.

How, without using saving throw bonus feats and Way of the Acrobat or racial saving throw enhancements?

I don't beleive Elite builds should be required to be nearly-perfectly min/maxed just for traps? The choice of race should also not be limited in order to be successful on Elite. How can a warforged rogue get near +60 Reflex without being a paladin?

I also don't beleive that an elite rogue needs to be a near-max DEX build. There should be some room for a STR-based rogue that also has very high DEX, but not 30+

The problem with extremely high save DCs on elite is that it extremely narrows character development choices to specific races, ability score builds, and alignement/class if 3 paladin levels becomes the new standard way of acheiving the saves required.

ELITE should be for elite character builds with the most of the best items and buffs available, but it should not be a members-only club for specific races with the requirement of spending 12 APS in each of several narrowly focused character ability-enhancements.

Lunewann
02-06-2008, 06:08 PM
Don't you get it? They've "fixed" the traps now, there's no need for them to revisit them. Elite means elite.

They're all busy working on upping the will and fort and reflex saves of all monsters on elite, so that the kobolds in waterworks on elite to about 35, 30, 50. After all, elite should MEAN something!!! Those casters who want to cast spells they're not completely specced for, well, SOL.

Next, will be the AC and HP of the goodblades quest monsters on elite. They should be at least 40 and 700, respectively. Cause, you know, elite should mean something. Oh, and DR. They all need DR.

There's a lot of work to be done to make the game less inviting and enjoyable, to satisfy the l33t crowd. So don't hold your breath on devs getting back about trap save DCs

I have to agree. Elite should mean something it should not be for the faint hearted yes all DC's have been raised also this doesn't mean you have to build char's based around single objects of the game to complete. Elite also means that you should be playing with a group that understands the true aspect of a dungeon and working together as a group to over come these obsticals, they should have appropriate gear and be prepared to heal themselves if a healer is un-avaliable because they are focusing on someone else have min. buff pots and wands anything to help.... *the scout moto "be prepared"*

I admit a rogue is VERY important when it comes to working in traps due to the nature of there natrual ability to work in them. People say they see rogues fail in these traps.... I have yet myself failed in any of the new content on elite and still enjoy playing a lvl 16 rogue that can still be a valued combatant as well as being there to jump out of the fight to heal and if needed raise the dead. With some good buffs and good gear plus a good blend of enhancments it is more than possable to achive this.

Elite means working together.... there is no "I" in team. I will not argue that some content may seem tough to people if they want to do elite but is it meant to be easy with a name "ELITE"???

Angelus_dead
02-06-2008, 06:52 PM
Perhaps they want traps to be lethal on elite. Perhaps, on elite, they expect you to bring a balanced party, including a rogue. Perhaps, they are saying "hey, if you do it on elite, running through traps isn't an option".
How is it reasonable for a quest 5 levels too low to give you any XP to still be massively lethal for a character?

How is it reasonable for a particular caster to solo a level 5 quest at level 6 without trouble... then advance to level 16, come back to the SAME quest, set it to elite, and be TOTALLY unable to survive the traps?

The idea of increasing the threat of elite traps is fine. The extent they took it to is not.

Raithe
02-06-2008, 06:59 PM
Once again people want to argue whether or not this is about being an "elite" player. It's not. We could argue that the elite difficulty setting is not really that difficult for characters well beyond the quest level, and we could also point out that the objective of raising difficulties on a quest was to increase usable content for a particular character level, not to separate poor gamers from good ones. It doesn't really matter for this discussion.

The point, as others have pointed out numerous times in this thread, is that the stat values of rogues and other reflex-based characters just got devalued, once again. You can be the best player in the world, but if another good player is playing a better build who can do everything you can but better - you just became obsolete. Raising DCs does not separate the 30 reflex save + 8 trap sense rogues from the 37 reflex save paladin/rogues. They both just got their builds devalued, and neither one is going to be sought more in a group. In fact, because they both had to switch feats out for Resilience and Lightning Reflexes, they are now invited into groups less. The paladin/rogue, however, will be sought far more often because of the other paladin attributes that didn't get devalued.

Put a spin on that any way you want, it is still the bottom line truth.

Lunewann
02-06-2008, 07:11 PM
Once again people want to argue whether or not this is about being an "elite" player. It's not. We could argue that the elite difficulty setting is not really that difficult for characters well beyond the quest level, and we could also point out that the objective of raising difficulties on a quest was to increase usable content for a particular character level, not to separate poor gamers from good ones. It doesn't really matter for this discussion.

The point is, as others have pointed out numerous times in this thread, that the stat values of rogues and other reflex-based characters just got devalued, once again. You can be the best player in the world, but if another good player is playing a better build who can do everything you can but better - you just became obsolete. Raising DCs does not separate the 30 reflex save + 8 trap sense rogues from the 37 reflex save paladin/rogues. They both just got their builds devalued, and neither one is going to be sought more in a group. In fact, because they both had to switch feats out for Resilience and Lightning Reflexes, they are now invited into groups less. The paladin/rogue, however, will be sought far more often because of the other paladin attributes that didn't get devalued.

Put a spin on that any way you want, it is still the bottom line truth.

If you are referring to my post Raithe you will see i made no mention of elite players.... I did how ever mention elite groups high end content is made for people that work together im not denying that the rogue/pally build is great for saves because it is. But there are ways to improve stats through gear and enhancments + buffs that will get almost all good rogue builds by without too much worry from the traps in the new content so far.

Pellegro
02-06-2008, 07:15 PM
How is it reasonable for a particular caster to solo a level 5 quest at level 6 without trouble... then advance to level 16, come back to the SAME quest, set it to elite, and be TOTALLY unable to survive the traps?.

I dunno ... maybe they think that you shouldn't be running through traps on elite regardless of level?

Really ... you're taking the squishiest class in game (caster) and complaining that you can't live through an elite trap. Even if it is a level 5 quest, by choosing the "elite" option, you're choosing the "deadly traps that if you're gonna run through its gonna hurt".

You may not *like* that, and that's fine. But I can see why they would have this option that basically says ... If you want to run elite, do it with a balanced group where each team member has a role, and each follows it.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2008, 07:20 PM
Really ... you're taking the squishiest class in game (caster) and complaining that you can't live through an elite trap.
Have you tested any of this? It's not specific to casters, but that is the strongest example. Heck, take a level 14 ranger. Go into a level 4 quest on Elite. Cast Fire Resist 30, stand in a fire trap, and see how long you last. Not long!


Even if it is a level 5 quest, by choosing the "elite" option, you're choosing the "deadly traps that if you're gonna run through its gonna hurt".
Why? How does it make sense for the traps to be scaled up to the equivalent of 10 or 12 levels higher than the base quest, but the monsters to become only 4 or 5 levels harder? Why should elite increase difficulty so un-evenly?


If you want to run elite, do it with a balanced group where each team member has a role, and each follows it.
How is that not reducing enjoyment of gameplay? Remember, we're not talking about characters of level X+2 or X+4 in a level X quest to elite. We're talking X+6, X+8, or even X+12 who can't handle it.

Why would the traps in level 4 elite quests be stronger than level 12 normal quests?

miceelf88
02-06-2008, 07:38 PM
If we want to go down this "elite means very specific builds must be included in parties, regardless of level" path, why not ahve some cleric love? I mean a lot of elite players self-heal now. So maybe there's a danger that some groups won't include a cleric. The solution? Doors necesary to the quest that require DC 40 turning checks on elite level 1 qusets and scale up from there.

Your cleric isn't specced for turning? Well, you'll just have to adjust. You should have a balanced group for elite, after all.

Fighters need love too? Lets have STR 35 doors that need opening on said elite level 1 quests. You mean your level 3 fighter can't get up to 35 STR? Why are you in elite, you gimp?!!!

Etc.

it's trivially easy to make arbitrary barriers requiring very specific builds. Why this is better, or even good, let alone fun, is beyond me.

suitepotato
02-06-2008, 07:56 PM
After looking over the thread and being out in the new harder world...

1. DC should be lowered to something sane.

2. Rogues should not have to be five or six levels beyond the quest to have a chance of surviving them to reach trapboxes on the far side.

So w/re2 #2, rogues should get some better saving and fighting capabilities else they are so trapsmith built they must be forever protected like taking Coyle with you everwhere you go and goodness, if you get a Leeroy Jenkins for a rogue you're totally boned. Or maybe make some sort of spell for sorcs and wizzes that can be cast on hapless escorted people.

I don't even want to think about running through the STK fire trap on elite as EVEN WITH A ROGUE you are fairly guaranteed to take serious damage BEFORE the changes. Afterward? Sending the rogue in there is to say, "have fun at the barbecue!"

I guess I'm running my level sixteen main from now on.

BigNastyMP
02-06-2008, 08:02 PM
It's about time Turbine made "elite" a difficult setting that presents a decent challenge. Bravo on upping the difficulty of elite quests, especially for the end game content.

While I may or may not have read this entire post, it warms my heart to know so many of you agree with me. :rolleyes:

LOUDRampart
02-06-2008, 08:03 PM
If I were the DM (or dev) I'd make it as tough as I could to provide a challenge too.

Raithe
02-06-2008, 08:18 PM
If I were the DM (or dev) I'd make it as tough as I could to provide a challenge too.

How is raising DC values an increase in "challenge" level? All it does is force people to:

1) Practice a trap without their gear on before actually running the quest.

-OR-

2) Swap out abilities they could have had for an increase to their stats in one area.

Let's not confuse "Difficulty Check" (DC) for actual gameplay difficulty. One is a stat of an in-game conceptual model, the other is a stat of the game itself.

Vormaerin
02-06-2008, 09:04 PM
It really comes down to whether you want elite to be about the player's twitch skill or about the character. If the former, then we are fine where we are. Twitch skills are far more important on elite than anything about your character. Your character's abilities are just a (generally inadequate) fallback for error in twitching.

If you want it to be about your character, then you need to consider whether its reasonable to insist that rogues heavily lopside their build in favor of one of the least interesting and least applicable of their abilities: namely trapmonkeying. Most quests do not have traps that require the rogue to risk the trap to disable it. What, like 10% of the quests do? So you are basically saying that rogues need to sacrifice their other abilities to be able to handle 10% of the content, with those feats and enhancements being dead weight in other quests.

This is not going to make rogues more popular in groups, especially not in the trap free quests. Its going to result in more gimp rogues that struggle to perform except in trapmonkeying and are therefore undesirable. Quests that do have situations requiring a superflex rogue now will probably join the 'hardly ever run' list quickly or more players will start memorizing the safespots and twitch gimmicks for those traps rather than carry a trapmonkey.

MysticTheurge
02-07-2008, 07:41 AM
I dunno ... maybe they think that you shouldn't be running through traps on elite regardless of level?

In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

Emili
02-07-2008, 07:57 AM
I understand the timing, but that says more about a players twitch skills than the skills oif his character. If all it takes is the right timing on any trap then what is the point of having a reflex save to begin with. The fact is this is a game simulating a characters ability to avoid danger, the lecel of this ability is based on an artificial number called a reflex save that is pitted against a trap that also has an artificial number called a difficulty check. Whether someone takes damage or not is should be strictly determined based on that calculation, so timing your movements because you know the sequence is not a fair indicator of your chracters ability to save against those traps

And I agree... as I stated previously I do not advocte forcing a class to build a certain way or have a degree from a video arcade in mario hopping to play elite content. I was just pointing out that it is all (quest)game knowledge to do this and to a point eliminates those who do not know it from possibly ever doing it... point is what Shade say's is true but he only knows it because he's done it enough - he'd never be able to do it his first run on elite of something... this is a learned thing. Thus new rogues and classes take a terrible risk in doing it for the first time whereas people who have done it so much they can do it in thier sleep have no trouble. It is not player skill here it's knowledge and a little twitching at work. Do you take into account client latency? I just ran Rainbow on my ranger and the poor cleric behind me was so laggy he fell into the spike pit jumping from pillar to pillar so many times I cannot count... I could tell he was lagging because I stood on the other side and targeted him with my wand and sometimes when I went to wand whip him it healed me even though he was in my target window. It took so much of his and my mana in heals and wands it was nothing but scroll and wand heals for the end fight.

I do not believe it is fair to screen every rogue or class who applies to your group... I can see things right now as conversations between group leader and rogue applicant take place:

Group Leader: Can you get the trap?
Rogue: Yes, I'm sure I can.
Group Leader: What's your unbuffed save?
Rogue: Thirty-seven
Group Leader: Sorry you're under-qualified for this group.

This leads to a class being discriminated against for build...

Lastly, this also means people have to take rogues for many quest... some rogues see this as a good thing but it is reverse class descrimination. How many of you are going to stand around with an LFM up demanding a rogue while 50 other individual classes ask if you've room for them? In DnD there were other ways to remove the potency of a trap besides disabling it and none of those actually required a rogue... just brains. MT said it best in his post - in DnD this is true and there was never a such thing as a rogue requirement to complete a quest.
In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

Jacoby
02-07-2008, 08:13 AM
I agree that the traps should be harder...

I agree that the loot still sucks and collectable drops also suck on a grand scale. The only players that can actually build anything are farmers who play the game 20 hours a day.

I agree that the DC's and resistances are also way out of line.

They do this, I'm sure, to add life to the game. What they also add is a measureable degree of frustration that is driving away their populations.

Scholar
02-07-2008, 12:23 PM
In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

Well said.

ArkoHighStar
02-07-2008, 12:33 PM
In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

I think the dc will be lowered just like every time they have been raised, remember search and spot being raised, and disable being raised.

Example

Previous DC :25 Turbine thought it was too low and so did some users
New DC:38 People are freaked out because now it is just way out of wack
Final DC:32 We rejoice because they lower it forgetting they still managed to raise the dc on us

and we fall for it every time

Jaywade
02-07-2008, 12:43 PM
traps are way out of wack, was doing the vons and teh damage was insane (which I thought was okay) but the saves neeed to be brought down maybe spilt the difference from where they were to where they are now

MysticTheurge
02-07-2008, 01:11 PM
I think the dc will be lowered just like every time they have been raised, remember search and spot being raised, and disable being raised.

Example

Previous DC :25 Turbine thought it was too low and so did some users
New DC:38 People are freaked out because now it is just way out of wack
Final DC:32 We rejoice because they lower it forgetting they still managed to raise the dc on us

and we fall for it every time

It's funny because I think a lot of people in this thread would be happy with DCs and Damage that are higher than they were before Mod 6. It just seems like most people think they went too far in raising them.

(Which is to say, it'd be fine if they went 25->32 even without the stopover at 38.)

Beherit_Baphomar
02-07-2008, 01:26 PM
I think the dc will be lowered just like every time they have been raised, remember search and spot being raised, and disable being raised.

Example

Previous DC :25 Turbine thought it was too low and so did some users
New DC:38 People are freaked out because now it is just way out of wack
Final DC:32 We rejoice because they lower it forgetting they still managed to raise the dc on us

and we fall for it every time

Kinda like gas prices?

ArkoHighStar
02-07-2008, 04:17 PM
It's funny because I think a lot of people in this thread would be happy with DCs and Damage that are higher than they were before Mod 6. It just seems like most people think they went too far in raising them.

(Which is to say, it'd be fine if they went 25->32 even without the stopover at 38.)

yes but then there is no positive spin . As Bee said its just like gas prices, when and if they go down to $2.00 a gallon in the U.S. we will be so happy that we forget that it was once $1.25 a gallon. This approach long term also makes it look like turbine will react if the user base complains. It also gives them a gauge on how much is too high as it easier to roll back than it is increase incrementally without informing us.

Pellegro
02-07-2008, 06:22 PM
In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

This really doesn't make much sense to me.

Previously, traps were - at best - a slight mana drain. Everyone just ran through them. They didn't matter.

How do you make them matter? You make them lethal to all but the biggest/strongest players.

There are very few traps in this game that you can't avoid or disable without triggering. There are a few, and for those I think they need to be adjusted.

But I do not see why having lethal traps on elite is such a big deal otherwise. Its a design decision to make trap disabling relevant on at least one difficulty.

If the quest is level 6, and you're saying a level 16 d8+ HD cannot run through it and live, then fine. That may require some adjustment. That has not been my experience.

But I have no problem at all with a design decision that says that on elite, if you choose to run through a trap its going to hurt. Really bad. It keeps rogues relevant on elite, and makes traps things to be feared instead of irrelevant.

Pellegro
02-07-2008, 07:42 PM
Have you tested any of this? It's not specific to casters, but that is the strongest example. Heck, take a level 14 ranger. Go into a level 4 quest on Elite. Cast Fire Resist 30, stand in a fire trap, and see how long you last. Not long!


Why? How does it make sense for the traps to be scaled up to the equivalent of 10 or 12 levels higher than the base quest, but the monsters to become only 4 or 5 levels harder? Why should elite increase difficulty so un-evenly?


How is that not reducing enjoyment of gameplay? Remember, we're not talking about characters of level X+2 or X+4 in a level X quest to elite. We're talking X+6, X+8, or even X+12 who can't handle it.

Why would the traps in level 4 elite quests be stronger than level 12 normal quests?

OK I actually did go and test this. I used my lvl 15 ranger. I went into Gwylan's, a level 7 quest, on elite.

The first trap you encounter is a pierce trap. I failed twice in a row (didn't record DC) and each time took roughly 85 damage.

The second trap was the force trap on the stairs. I saved on a 19 (+28). I failed on a 6 (+28). I took 98 damage. I failed again on a 5 (28) and took 109 damage.

The third trap was the sonic trap, also on the stairs. I saved on an 11(+28). I failed on a 9(+28). I took 106 damage. I failed again on a 7 or 6 and took 96 damage. [Note: From this, I believe that the save DC for all traps in here is 38. That hypo works for all trap saves that I did test (as reported here)]

The fourth trap was the pierce trap before the fire trap (usually done near end of quest). I saved on 13(+28) and 12(+28) but failed on a 8 (and a 4), taking 96 and 90 points respectively.

The fifth trap I did was the fire trap. I failed on a 6, saved ona 15. I took 73 damage (but notably had fire res 30 up).

From this, I'd say that the SAVE DCs on these traps were about at 38, and the damage about 95 points.

That's a lvl 7 quest on elite. Which means its nominally a level 9 quest, although they have upped the range of each quest by making normal easier and elite more difficult, so its probably closer to a level 10 or 11.

I could have easily run this quest solo and ignored the traps. I am also level 15 and the quest is level 7 (but on elite). Draw your own conclusions.

For a level appropriate character, the DCs are quite high - meaning it will be difficult to ignore these traps and expect to make your save. The damage is reasonable for a lvl 9-11 high HP character. It will kill a squishy in one shot.

Now for the opinion part. The traps are not impossible to save on for a level appropriate character (which I believe is 9-11), although they are difficult to save on. Make your save maybe 1/3 times. I don't mind that. The damage will kill squishies if you just ignore the trap and fail your save, and will give substantial (possibly lethal) damage to non-squishies. I don't mind that either.

Bottom line? If you don't bring a rogue, and you run elite, and you are squishie, and you are within 5 levels of the quest, you must either avoid the traps or die. I base this on the fact that a level 12 sorc or wiz will likely have over 100 HPs.

For everyone else, its just a more substantial mana drain than before.

Practical effect? Adds value to rogues on elite content. Increases the importance of disabling traps (rather than just running through them).

You can still run these - even on level 7s. But if you don't have a rogue, count on dying and ressing if you don't have the timing skills to avoid the traps.

MysticTheurge
02-07-2008, 08:25 PM
This really doesn't make much sense to me.

Previously, traps were - at best - a slight mana drain. Everyone just ran through them. They didn't matter.

How do you make them matter? You make them lethal to all but the biggest/strongest players.

No. That's a terrible way to try to make them matter. For all the reasons that have been covered in this and other threads multiple times.

Vormaerin
02-07-2008, 08:59 PM
Its great that you do your testing on a quest where you can disable all the traps without needing to make a save. That's not really the issue for most folks, though it is for some. Its the many traps that the rogue needs to pass through to disable or can't be disabled at all that also have these sorts of values. Apparently, really good twitch players with extensive quest knowledge can avoid damage on many more traps than even most good players realize.

But I don't think that D&D is a game that should be about the player's twitch. Its great that we have a flexible game that allows that (though it does cause some problems as well). But a rogue that is conscientious about his ref save should be able to pass equal level traps reliably. It should not require total focus on ref saves nor should it require making a save you would expect to fail 2/3rd of the time.

Pellegro
02-07-2008, 09:02 PM
No. That's a terrible way to try to make them matter. For all the reasons that have been covered in this and other threads multiple times.

Well, you know what they say about opinions ...

Viva la difference !

Pellegro
02-07-2008, 09:03 PM
Its great that you do your testing on a quest where you can disable all the traps without needing to make a save. That's not really the issue for most folks, though it is for some. Its the many traps that the rogue needs to pass through to disable or can't be disabled at all that also have these sorts of values. Apparently, really good twitch players with extensive quest knowledge can avoid damage on many more traps than even most good players realize.



No. I did my testing by standing IN the trap and watching whether I saved or not.

I was trying to test how deadly the traps were if you couldn't avoid/disable them.

Vormaerin
02-07-2008, 09:49 PM
I know what you did. I meant that evaluating the utility of a rogue in a quest where the traps can be disabled without risking the rogue's life is not exactly addressing the main thrust of the complaints. But what about the quests where the trap boxes are in the path of the trap or beyond it? Since the values are similar in those, do you feel that a 1/3 chance of saving else taking 100+ pts of damage is appropriate for a mid level rogue to have to deal with?

I agree that the current values are respectable from a "oh, you don't want to have a rogue? okay, pay this price" perspective. Anyone can run through those traps if they are willing to spend the resources: false life/aid, resist element, pro element, haste should get a squishy through them. Jump for the spikes, I think.

But then you have Greymoon bridge, Mirra's ladder, Scoundrel's Run fire, and plenty more. Are these values at teh point where there's no difference between having a rogue and not in those cases? That's the concern.

tekn0mage
02-07-2008, 09:56 PM
No. That's a terrible way to try to make them matter. For all the reasons that have been covered in this and other threads multiple times.

*gasp* is it possible that we agree on something?

Watch out, the world is about to end in three...

two..

one.

tekn0mage
02-07-2008, 09:57 PM
*poof*

everyone gone.

MysticTheurge
02-07-2008, 11:09 PM
*gasp* is it possible that we agree on something?

Watch out, the world is about to end in three...

two..

one.

Pfft. It's not the first thing.

Remember when we agreed about the VoN re-flagging mechanism sucking?

Now the world might really end if Dane shows up and agrees too. ;)

ArkoHighStar
02-07-2008, 11:15 PM
Pfft. It's not the first thing.

Remember when we agreed about the VoN re-flagging mechanism sucking?

Now the world might really end if Dane shows up and agrees too. ;)

armegeddon:eek:

Pellegro
02-07-2008, 11:27 PM
I know what you did. I meant that evaluating the utility of a rogue in a quest where the traps can be disabled without risking the rogue's life is not exactly addressing the main thrust of the complaints. But what about the quests where the trap boxes are in the path of the trap or beyond it? Since the values are similar in those, do you feel that a 1/3 chance of saving else taking 100+ pts of damage is appropriate for a mid level rogue to have to deal with?

I agree that the current values are respectable from a "oh, you don't want to have a rogue? okay, pay this price" perspective. Anyone can run through those traps if they are willing to spend the resources: false life/aid, resist element, pro element, haste should get a squishy through them. Jump for the spikes, I think.

But then you have Greymoon bridge, Mirra's ladder, Scoundrel's Run fire, and plenty more. Are these values at teh point where there's no difference between having a rogue and not in those cases? That's the concern.

And as I've said repeatedly, I agree that in situations where there is no alternative but having to go through the trap, the damage should be manually adjusted.

I've also suggested - and it looks like you've done it here - that someone actually list those examples. Make it easy for the powers that be to go in and manually make downward adjustments to damage in those instances.

But recognize that if your position is as stated above, that you're really not concerned about the trap DCs at all - what you're concerned about is the DAMAGE of only CERTAIN traps. Namely, those that cannot be disabled / avoided. And that's a position that I will agree with.

This thread, however, is full of generic complaints that the trap "DC's on elite are RIDICULOUS [sic]", which is but another way of saying "we can't run through them and just make our saves anymore". That position, as well as a generic complaint that the damage is too high across the board, those are the issues that I don't agree with.

Of course, no one ever listens to me anyway ... :D

Vormaerin
02-08-2008, 03:09 AM
Hmm, the DCs are a problem IMHO not because they prevent people from running through the traps, but rather because they are not within the range of a reasonable, versatile rogue build. So either the rogue has to be lopsidedly trap oriented and, therefore, pretty underpowered in the 90% of the content that is not traps OR the best plan is to buff as much as possible and run through the traps anyway.

We basically agree, but I think the problem is slightly different than you are saying.

Do'Urden
02-08-2008, 07:28 AM
Ran HIPS yesterday...rogue in the party has a 33 reflex save...fails on a 10 (so...a 43 roll) in the water blades...gets waxed for 185 points of damage. That's just not right...

Yaga_Nub
02-08-2008, 08:13 AM
Pfft. It's not the first thing.

Remember when we agreed about the VoN re-flagging mechanism sucking?

Now the world might really end if Dane shows up and agrees too. ;)

I demand that you remove this statement before he sees it. Dane now has the power to end the world! Having said that, do you think the UN will add him as a permanent member of the UN Security Council until they figure out a way to divert this threat?

Shade
02-08-2008, 08:42 AM
You guys just don't get it.

The DCs are designed to be so high that you just don't make the save ever.. It's not that there "rediculous" its that there not designed for you to be able to make them. Your not sposed to. Elite players dodge traps, they don't rely on reflex saves to save themselves.. They do it with the keyboard.

If some non specialized build could save vs them 50&#37; - they a speciliased rogue could save vs them 95% and take no dmg, rendering the trap worthless... Thats not elite, thats noobland.

And as i've shown, at max lvls, some very specilized builds will make the saves if they so desire.. But they really don't need to. Traps aren't never designed in such a way that you must get hit by them more then once to survive running by them...

And seeing how all the quests are still getting beat on elite regularly, thats still quite doable.

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 08:54 AM
The DCs are designed to be so high that you just don't make the save ever.. It's not that there "rediculous" its that there not designed for you to be able to make them. Your not sposed to. Elite players dodge traps, they don't rely on reflex saves to save themselves.. They do it with the keyboard.

So elite monsters should have To-Hits so high they just never miss your AC, regardless what it is? And they ought to have permanent true seeing too, right?

I mean, after all, elite players dodge monsters. They don't rely on AC or Blur to protect them. They do it with the keyboard.

:rolleyes:

Shade
02-08-2008, 09:04 AM
So elite monsters should have To-Hits so high they just never miss your AC, regardless what it is? And they ought to have permanent true seeing too, right?

I mean, after all, elite players dodge monsters. They don't rely on AC or Blur to protect them. They do it with the keyboard.

:rolleyes:

Damn right. AC makes the game too easy since you can physically dodge monster attacks too, and do it while melee'ing them back to boot

I don't have permanent true seeing - I use mentaus googles, so mobs should use those too imo.. But cast trueseeing often, which allot of newer monsters do.

Elite bosses like Arraetrikos infact do have permanent undispellable truseeing.

Zenix_Leviticus
02-08-2008, 09:29 AM
*gasp* is it possible that we agree on something?

Watch out, the world is about to end in three...

two..

one.

rofl.... You know, I was thinking the same thing about myself and MT.

I don't know if MT is changing or I am, but I have been agreeing with him
a lot more in the last couple of weeks.


I think maybe armegeddon is upn us all!


DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 09:30 AM
Damn right. AC makes the game too easy since you can physically dodge monster attacks too, and do it while melee'ing them back to boot

The game you want is not D&D.

Kindly go play some FPS and leave the rest of us alone.

miceelf88
02-08-2008, 09:50 AM
If elite is going to mean "impeccable twitch skills" (which SOME of what the devs have done suggests may be the case), I may as well just throw it in. I don't design my characters or play DnD in any form just to be shown that I suck at Halo3. I can do that on my xbox, thank you very much.

Incidentally, I don't suffer lag on my xbox, so if DDO is going to be twitch central, I'll just spend my time and money elsewhere.

Shade
02-08-2008, 10:17 AM
The game you want is not D&D.

Kindly go play some FPS and leave the rest of us alone.

No. It IS DnD. Without the rules.

In DnD - if you are wearing a robe and have an amazing high dex - the enemy swings at you and rolls to low to hit you - that means you dodged his attack. That doesn't happen in DDO, you dodgeh is attack - and he has no attack roll to begin with. He hits you - well he hit you, why are you getting a roll to dodge?

Beside that already IS DDO elite. No one's realisticly doing much with there AC on elite in any of the new content. It's not designed for that.

If you wanna rely on AC, go right away, the game caters to all groups. There is another setting for people who don't want the game to be hard like that.

It's called normal, give it a go.

Shade
02-08-2008, 10:20 AM
Incidentally, I don't suffer lag on my xbox, so if DDO is going to be twitch central, I'll just spend my time and money elsewhere.

Your lucky then heh. Halo lags for me online lots, even more then DDO.

And yea see ya, have fun in a different game. Or maybe play on normal.

ViVid7th
02-08-2008, 10:20 AM
While I do trap dodge on my characters quite often, it's a handy skill but not one that always applies. Some traps don't have 'cycles', they are just always on. Some types of traps don't count the 3rd dimension properly (meaning that if you are in the air far above the trap, you sill make a save). Some traps you can't judge the cycles on them because the trap is many separate parts working on separate cycle timers and those parts are beyond line of sight and sound. And lets not forget the rooms that have the entire floor covered in separate spike traps that trigger if you stop in one spot for 3 seconds.

Trap dodging shouldn't be 100% required, this isn't Halo. DDO combines build, gear and skill to perform.

Shade
02-08-2008, 10:26 AM
Trap dodging shouldn't be 100% required, this isn't Halo. DDO combines build, gear and skill to perform.

Yep thats whats great about the game. Every obstacle has multple ways to win. You can do it with twitch skill, build, or simply some tricks based on your quest knowledge.

My point here is that all the players who lack either build or tricks to get by the traps should use twitch skill to do it. If they lack all 3 of those - they aren't elite and they need to stop crying.

And I don't agree with your idea of some traps being undodgeable, I haven't encountered such a beast in the game. Certainly many are xtremely difficult to dodge, and many require things like max jump and sprint boost.. But with those ability's I don't recall a single trap that I HAD TO get hit by to get around.

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 10:35 AM
No. It IS DnD. Without the rules.

Is that like Poker without the rules? Or Monopoly without the rules? Or football without the rules?

Shade
02-08-2008, 10:37 AM
Is that like Poker without the rules? Or Monopoly without the rules? Or football without the rules?

No those are boring without rules. Now fighting monsters without rules? That rocks.

miceelf88
02-08-2008, 11:00 AM
My statement was I'd be leaving IF.

Not going anywhere yet, sorry.

And, Shade, since when did YOU get to decide that DDO is meant to be a twitch fest on elite? You may be right, and if you are (again, IF), I'll be leaving. But I would love to hear from the devs about what they consider the elite game to be before I make that decision as I love the game for the most part (and loved it even more up until the trap thing).

Incidentally, and this is a side note- why doesn't something like the DR -/5 from warchanters affect slashing or piercing trap damage?

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 11:02 AM
No those are boring without rules. Now fighting monsters without rules? That rocks.

Regardless of whether you think D&D-without-the-D&D-rules rocks or not, it's simply not D&D.

If you want a twitchfest without the D&D rules, there are other games you can play.

Shade
02-08-2008, 11:09 AM
Incidentally, and this is a side note- why doesn't something like the DR -/5 from warchanters affect slashing or piercing trap damage?

It does. It just doesn't display in the combat log but it works fine.

I'm just describing how elite is now. I like that skill matters.
You got a problem with it being un-DnD like, well thats your problem. It might not adher to DnD rules perfectly but I don't care much.

The devs already said there intentions in the release notes - to make elite traps nasty and thus more elite.. They've succeeded, so they don't need to explain further.

BTW Mystictheurge, whats a good twitchfest game based on the DnD universe to play?

EinarMal
02-08-2008, 11:13 AM
It does. It just doesn't display in the combat log but it works fine.

I'm just describing how elite is now. I like that skill matters.
You got a problem with it being un-DnD like, well thats your problem. It might not adher to DnD rules perfectly but I don't care much.

The devs already said there intentions in the release notes - to make elite traps nasty and thus more elite.. They've succeeded, so they don't need to explain further.

BTW Mystictheurge, whats a good twitchfest game based on the DnD universe to play?

Well here's the thing, only a tiny fraction of the player base are really excellent players with super twitch skills/build knowledge/game knowledge/uber gear. If that is what is required to do elite quests even remotely near your level this will become a big issue. I don't think this is the case yet, although it seems to be more and more headed in that direction.

If that is what they want to do then I think they need to re-think the favor system at least. It is fine to make some ultra "insane" level of difficulty. I would rather they do that to please people like you, and leave the quests alone otherwise, or at least not boosted to crazy levels.

To say that the devs can ignore people who do not like the ever escalation to elite difficulty is naive at best. They will have to answer if people get fed up with the difficulty level of the game and move on, they will answer with their jobs.

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 11:16 AM
BTW Mystictheurge, whats a good twitchfest game based on the DnD universe to play?

Well, you've added a criteria that I didn't.

Oddly enough you'll find that there aren't a lot of twitch-based D&D games. I wonder why that is. :rolleyes:

Shade
02-08-2008, 11:19 AM
If that is what they want to do then I think they need to re-think the favor system at least. It is fine to make some ultra "insane" level of difficulty. I would rather they do that to please people like you, and leave the quests alone otherwise, or at least not boosted to crazy levels.

Yea I agree.. The favor thing is a bit unfair since the rewards are really geared towards all players. Maybe hard and elite should give the same amount of favor.

Then add a nightmare mode. Minor XP increase, No xtra loot or favor so most gamers dont miss out. With new rules:
No to-hit rolls for monsters - they always hit you.
No saves for traps - you have to dodge them.
No damage for traps - they kill you instantly - additionally if you die to a trap you cannot be rezzed for 10minuits, your permanently dead.
Monsters can critical hit players regardless of fortification status.
All mobs imune to vorpal, smite, disrupt, wounding.
Boss mobs all have 10x Hitpoints.

That would be fun :D

miceelf88
02-08-2008, 11:20 AM
Impaqt had a good suggestion for that, where normal and hard provide favor and elite just provides better loot. That would be a good system.

I'll definitely be one of the people they lose if they go down this path of elite means either very specific builds or crazy twitch/perfect connection.. I am hoping that's not the case, but there is defintely some movement in that direction.

I would love to hear the devs comment on what they see the elite game to be. That way, we could have a sense of what they were going for, and then it would be a question of whether this was poor implementation or working as intended.

MT- the reason is that most DnD players (at least ones like me) are pretty uncoordinated. That's why I was playing DnD when my classmates were playing hockey or whatever.

Shade
02-08-2008, 11:21 AM
Well, you've added a criteria that I didn't.

Oddly enough you'll find that there aren't a lot of twitch-based D&D games. I wonder why that is. :rolleyes:

Expensive license given to a now dying publisher.

DDO is it for now.

DnD does have such a cool monster set and lore that it deserves more games based off it tho. It did have a couple non pure rpg ones a while back like that RTS one, that was kinda neat.

EinarMal
02-08-2008, 11:22 AM
Yea I agree.. The favor thing is a bit unfair since the rewards are really geared towards all players. Maybe hard and elite should give the same amount of favor.

Then add a nightmare mode. Minor XP increase, No xtra loot or favor so most gamers dont miss out. With new rules:
No to-hit rolls for monsters - they always hit you.
No saves for traps - you have to dodge them.
No damage for traps - they kill you instantly - additionally if you die to a trap you cannot be rezzed for 10minuits, your permanently dead.
Monsters can critical hit players regardless of fortification status.
All mobs imune to vorpal, smite, disrupt, wounding.
Boss mobs all have 10x Hitpoints.

That would be fun :D

This would be a much better solution than trying to shut out "normal" gamers from quests by making them too hard. BTW good luck with that mode that does not look fun to me at all!

Shade
02-08-2008, 11:23 AM
To say that the devs can ignore people who do not like the ever escalation to elite difficulty is naive at best. They will have to answer if people get fed up with the difficulty level of the game and move on, they will answer with their jobs.
How are they ignoring them?

The new raid is THE content designed for people who don't like mega hard raids like abbot. It's super easy to get ready for, not nessary to do on elite at all, and very easy to do even for casual gamers with zero twitch skill.

You guys aren't being ignored at all. Turbine knows who there #1 customer is. And it's definetely not me lol :p

MysticTheurge
02-08-2008, 11:26 AM
DnD does have such a cool monster set and lore that it deserves more games based off it tho. It did have a couple non pure rpg ones a while back like that RTS one, that was kinda neat.

Well, truthfully, just about every medieval fantasy game since the 80s is, to some degree, based off of D&D (which is, of course, in turn based off of Tolkein).

But if you mean more games should have the D&D name, the reason you don't see non-RPG games like that is pretty much what miceelf lays out here.


MT- the reason is that most DnD players (at least ones like me) are pretty uncoordinated. That's why I was playing DnD when my classmates were playing hockey or whatever.

And yes, in truth, if Elite was the same as Normal in terms of rewards, I could care less what they did to it. But that would mean no extra XP, no extra loot, no extra favor. The only difference between Normal and Elite would be that Elite would be harder. Then you can make it a pure-twitch game for all I care and I'd just play normal. But "just playing normal" isn't really an option in the game as it is now, and so Elite has to be accessible to all types of players, twitch-fiends or not.

EinarMal
02-08-2008, 11:27 AM
How are they ignoring them?

The new raid is THE content designed for people who don't like mega hard raids like abbot. It's super easy to get ready for, not nessary to do on elite at all, and very easy to do even for casual gamers with zero twitch skill.

You guys aren't being ignored at all. Turbine knows who there #1 customer is. And it's definetely not me lol :p

I agree with the new raid, absolutely, but the trap DC thing is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. I am fine with traps being more deadly, but when a "normal" rogue with ~35-40 evasion save against traps has to rely on twitch skills to disable or get through traps that is a problem to me.

Again I am fine with making an ultra hard mode for people who want that, I am also fine if they adjust what elite difficulty does in terms of favor/reward.

The way it is now though is kind of harsh given that everyone has to run a lot of quests on elite or be shut out of some cool rewards.

miceelf88
02-08-2008, 11:28 AM
I give you credit for acknowledging the favor issue, which is the big issue I suspect most of us have with elite being the way it is now. (still not sure if emphasizing twitch is what the devs were going for, but that may be a moot point).

And, if favor is really important AND elite is the way to get faster favor AND elite is the way you are describing it, then yes, the bulk of the gamers are getting ignored in favor of you.

If as I think you and the naysayers agree on, elite should not net extra favor, then I think we can both be happy. You can have your elite with whatever it contains, and we naysayers can have non-impeccable twitch skills and still enjoy the game.

Yaga_Nub
02-08-2008, 12:35 PM
Well here's the thing, only a tiny fraction of the player base are really excellent players with super twitch skills/build knowledge/game knowledge/uber gear. If that is what is required to do elite quests even remotely near your level this will become a big issue. I don't think this is the case yet, although it seems to be more and more headed in that direction.

Who said Shade elite?

tekn0mage
02-08-2008, 12:55 PM
I respect the fact that base XP and bonus XP's are higher on elite, but they are now way out of balance compared to the difficulty of the quest.

I'd like to see the rewards and the XP bumped up. Perhaps you could incrementally grant XP during milestones in an elite mission. That way, you don't get to an impassable place (depending on builds and depending on LFM/LFG choices, this now can conceivably happen) and get absolutely ZERO for it.

As it stands now, this issue needs to be bumped to the absolute highest priority (once they fix the flagging for DQ & VON raids, respectively).

Yaga_Nub
02-08-2008, 01:02 PM
As it stands now, this issue needs to be bumped to the absolute highest priority (once they fix the flagging for DQ & VON raids, respectively).

They aren't going to fix the flagging for DQ and VON so you might as well ask them to make this the number one priority.

tekn0mage
02-08-2008, 01:19 PM
They aren't going to fix the flagging for DQ and VON so you might as well ask them to make this the number one priority.

I know I just had to throw it in there.

Tanka
02-08-2008, 06:56 PM
One thing about the whole "dodging" aspect.

I play my character.

My character does not play me.

In PnP, just because I say "I roll Open Lock" does not mean the GM should ever throw a real lock at me and tell me (the player) to pick it to see if my character succeeds.

The opposite applies. I might know how to repair a PC, but my Barbarian thinks all technology is magical and to be feared.

Why should this be different in DDO?

miceelf88
02-08-2008, 09:44 PM
One of the cool things about DDO (currently, anyway) is that you don't need any particular class to run most of the quests.

Other night, my battle bard and three rangers did the first two parts of delera's. We were joined partyway through by a fighter, and only in the third part by a cleric. It was fun. My bard doesn't heal very much/well, and we all wand whipped and mainly self-buffed, but worked together pretty well.

Waiting aroudn hoping a particular build of rogue (or whatever) would show up is just not fun.

tekn0mage
02-08-2008, 09:52 PM
One of the cool things about DDO (currently, anyway) is that you don't need any particular class to run most of the quests.

Other night, my battle bard and three rangers did the first two parts of delera's. We were joined partyway through by a fighter, and only in the third part by a cleric. It was fun. My bard doesn't heal very much/well, and we all wand whipped and mainly self-buffed, but worked together pretty well.

Waiting aroudn hoping a particular build of rogue (or whatever) would show up is just not fun.

Ok now go back and do that on elite with the same party (without a rogue) and tell me how you did.

Lithic
02-08-2008, 10:30 PM
Ok now go back and do that on elite with the same party (without a rogue) and tell me how you did.

I'd be more interested to know how a group of 6 lvl 7-10 characters (including at least one rogue) would fare in the fire room in STK Elite pt 3.

Or a group of lvl 9-12s in the pit elite dancing around those force traps (I dont think ill ever do that quest without Ddoor again).

Or a group of 12 lvl 16 rogues in VON5 elite trying to disable the door trap. You know the one Im talking about.

Edit: The most disturbing part about the trap save DC's is that they created a thread where I agree with tekno...Scary.

Invalid_86
02-08-2008, 11:11 PM
Twitch skills should have absolutely zero effect on avoiding traps.

Why should my Evading 20+ Dex character be penalized by my lack of a 20+ Dex?

You roll your save. Thems the D&D rules.

miceelf88
02-08-2008, 11:54 PM
I agree with you. That's the point. Keeping the DCs as they are will reduce the fun of nonstandard groups.

bobbryan2
02-09-2008, 12:08 AM
Twitch skills should have absolutely zero effect on avoiding traps.

Why should my Evading 20+ Dex character be penalized by my lack of a 20+ Dex?

You roll your save. Thems the D&D rules.

Because it's a video game. Twitch skills are part of a video game.

Vormaerin
02-09-2008, 01:20 AM
Err, no. Twitch skills are part of certain kinds of video games. D&D games are, traditionally, not part of that group. There isn't one out there that is a twitch game other than this one. Actually, few MMOs are much for twitch gaming. And, up until now, twitch gaming was a nice perk for DDO but not a necessity. Any design which pretty much tells the rogues: "Screw it, if you aren't a great twitch player with detailed knowledge of the quest, don't bother" is bad. That's pretty much what this change is doing. You either build a character that is subpar for 90% of the content by obsessing with trap saves or you have exellent twitch skills and the knowledge of where to use them. Or you don't play a rogue.

Neither is good way for this sort of game to go. What this change really means is that a swath of quests will just fall off the list of quests that people do on elite (and, perhaps, on hard in some cases). Yay, that's really good for the game.

Pellegro
02-09-2008, 01:30 AM
Err, no. Twitch skills are part of certain kinds of video games. D&D games are, traditionally, not part of that group. There isn't one out there that is a twitch game other than this one. Actually, few MMOs are much for twitch gaming. And, up until now, twitch gaming was a nice perk for DDO but not a necessity. Any design which pretty much tells the rogues: "Screw it, if you aren't a great twitch player with detailed knowledge of the quest, don't bother" is bad. That's pretty much what this change is doing. You either build a character that is subpar for 90&#37; of the content by obsessing with trap saves or you have exellent twitch skills and the knowledge of where to use them. Or you don't play a rogue.

Neither is good way for this sort of game to go. What this change really means is that a swath of quests will just fall off the list of quests that people do on elite (and, perhaps, on hard in some cases). Yay, that's really good for the game.


The incorporation of twitch skills is one of the few unique things this MMO has going for it.

Remove those and you're left with another WoW, LOTRo, EQ, ... etc.

Please don't start with the whole "oh noes on elite this game requires actual manual dexterity". That is a *strength* of DDO, and I personally applaud their making "elite" even more reliant on that gameplay style.

It always gets my goose when people complain that "elite" is too "elite". Its not. Elite is still relatively easy. Its been what, 2 weeks? And how many folks have done *all* the new content on elite?

Nothign requires you to do elite. You can get 1750 favor without *ever* touchign elite. It will take you a few levels longer, yes, but it can be done.

Really ... you've got normal, and you've got hard. Leave Elite alone.

EDIT: My "rant" has nothign to do with the poster I quoted. He was merely convenient. This is more directed to the numerous posters in this thread who seem to think that even on elite, trap saves should be set at a level that allows them to be made more than 33% of the time for a level appropriate character (as that seems to be about where they're at now).

EDIT2: To more directly address the post I quoted -- No. There are very few traps in this game that you MUST trigger. I've seen 4 listed here. Other than those (and any that haven't been listed), the trap *can* be disabled withotu triggering it. The issue here isn't that rogues are no longer relevant. The issue is that traps are now lethal. Those 4 examples excepted.

Raithe
02-09-2008, 02:31 AM
People build characters to handle certain tasks. Regardless of whether elite is supposed to be about twitch skill and "elite" players or not (I'll repeat that this doesn't really matter for the discussion at hand), those character statistics should matter. Throwing out reflex saves and evasion on elite makes building those characters with evasion and high reflexes nearly worthless. If trap sense is not useful, what are you going to give rogues in its place? Well?

This elitist attitude is funny. Is jumping to miss the fire trap on the first horn in the Crucible really that elite? Is running against the door in VoN 3 to miss the force trap really that elite? Is walking down the center between rows of spike traps really that elite? Is casting haste and hitting sprint boost and running straight (holding a key down, for Pete's sake) to pass the troll lair bridge in Grey Moon really that elite? The answer, for those still wondering, is no. Anyone who thinks that Turbine upped the DCs to enforce bypassing traps through twitch play might need to have their head examined (and this includes the developers, in case they can actually be included...).

I actively try to avoid making any saves on all my characters, because a 1 is still failure regardless. Making 2s through 18s failures as well invalidates most of my build, and most of my characters.

Pellegro
02-09-2008, 02:37 AM
Finding alternative ways to being damaged by traps is, in my opinion, a good thing. Whether you want to call it elite or not -whatever. I even think when people come up with (as opposed to copy) what might be deemed an exploit -thats pretty cool. They took a system, and they figured out a way to beat it. Running the exploit repeatedly is not cool. All the johnny-come-latelys who are mere coat-tail riders, are also not cool. They're just cheating.

Gwylan's is a level 7 quest. The save DC for the traps in there, on elite, is 38. The damage if you fail is about 100 (actually a bit lower).

Is that really game breaking? Does that really make rogues useless?

All they've done is made traps more relevant. Everybody used to zerg through them. Now you can't. Well, you can, but its gonna do more serious damage than before.

Rogues can still disable (the DCs to disable were not, as far as I know, raised). Its just that there's a real cost if you don't let them, or if you just ignore the traps. In the 4 instances where you can't disable the traps without setting them off .... in those 4 instances I agree that the DC should be slightly lowered. Or, better yet, just insure that there is *some* way to avoid the trap.

Raithe
02-09-2008, 02:44 AM
Is that really game breaking? Does that really make rogues useless?


Ummm... we wouldn't be having this discussion if the answer wasn't Yes, horrendously so.

Hvymetal
02-09-2008, 06:05 AM
Damn right. AC makes the game too easy since you can physically dodge monster attacks too, and do it while melee'ing them back to boot

I don't have permanent true seeing - I use mentaus googles, so mobs should use those too imo.. But cast trueseeing often, which allot of newer monsters do.

Elite bosses like Arraetrikos infact do have permanent undispellable truseeing.Cool, so then what you are saying that it is fine if this feature is retroactivly instituted to previous quests on Elite right? That's what they did to traps..... Also they should hit a for a lot more damage to equal the trap change and to make it so those high hp barbs also have to rely solely on twitch skills also right?

Edit: Also for the people curious about STK ran STK elite on a 3/3 Drow Rogue/Paladin along with a 7 pure Rogue in the party. Decided to let the pure have a go at the fire trap 1st. (I usually believe in letting the higher level Rogue have at the traps and I am not trying to fight over who disables which trap 1st)

With 20 point resists and protect from our 7th level Cleric the Rogue died in the trap. I decided to try and go after the other Rogue. Managed to avoid the trap until I misjudged slightly at the end and I landed just at the edge of the last flame jet as it was coming on. Failed my save and died:(

The Barbarian w/ protect and resist managed to run through 2 or 3 of the jets and still make it w/ hp to spare.

tekn0mage
02-09-2008, 11:42 AM
This, like many other things Turbine implements was NOT thought out.

I'm tired of pointless, direction less, arbitrary and counterproductive changes.

Strykersz
02-09-2008, 12:19 PM
Or a group of 12 lvl 16 rogues in VON5 elite trying to disable the door trap. You know the one Im talking about.


Had a level 13 rogue(probably had 120 hp) live through the door trap. The key to trapsmithing von 5 elite is only getting hit once(or having an on the ball cleric). One hit you can live through. Otherwise, you take a rez on the other side and QQ about repair bills in voice chat.

Invalid_86
02-09-2008, 01:03 PM
Because it's a video game. Twitch skills are part of a video game.

Its D&D. You roll dice to avoid these attacks. That's the game. That's why this isn't a FPS.

This inflation also shows why the "Don't nerf, just make everything else bigger" approach towards the game doesn't work. Everything is based on D20s, beyond a certain spread the game starts unravelling. This is also the reasoning why AC and BAB are so messed up.

MysticTheurge
02-09-2008, 01:09 PM
Look guys, here's the deal.

We're all kind of right. DDO is a D&D game with twitch stuff incorporated. That is one of the things that sets it apart from other MMOs and other D&D games.

But it's a careful balancing act, making sure that the two things are both meshing well with each other. And neither one should take complete precedence over the other. Which is what seems to be the problem here.

When the DCs on traps become so high that you have to rely on twitch skills in order to deal with them, then there's a problem.

BillBob
02-09-2008, 01:16 PM
I don't know if someone already said this, but i assume that the DCs on the traps were always high to provide some measure of danger on elite. With the damage being so low relatively before the new mod it would make sense to increase the DCs to make sure players were being hit by something. Now i could be totally wrong on this since i never really looked at the DCs of the traps on elite before Mod 6. Though i do remember taking damage from a trap on elite was just assumed. Hmm

Pellegro
02-09-2008, 01:17 PM
When the DCs on traps become so high that you have to rely on twitch skills in order to deal with them, then there's a problem.

On elite. Don't forget that important point.

Also, don't forget, you're talking about a very specific DC - trap saves. And its a DC that can be avoided in numerous ways ... (1) using a rogue or even someone with a rogue splash (as the DCs to disable have *not* gone up to the same extent) will avoid all but 4 or 5 of these traps, so that's an option; (2) even without a rogue, "twitch skills" (or, you can just say "the ability to time your run") can avoid the vast majority of these; (3) even if you don't have a trap disabler, and you can't handle counting/timing a move, for many many of these traps you can find a way around them.

Nothing that was done to trap save DCs has made "twitch" skills critical. Not even on elite.

Last ... while we like to say that DDO requires twitch skills, as alluded to above, its a *very* low level of twitch skills. Its basically timing and some very imprecise mouse control. If you want to see real twitch skills, go play a FPS. The "twitch" required in here is so far removed from FPS twitch requirements as to make calling them both "twitch" borderline deceptive.

tekn0mage
02-09-2008, 01:51 PM
On elite. Don't forget that important point.

Also, don't forget, you're talking about a very specific DC - trap saves. And its a DC that can be avoided in numerous ways ... (1) using a rogue or even someone with a rogue splash (as the DCs to disable have *not* gone up to the same extent) will avoid all but 4 or 5 of these traps, so that's an option; (2) even without a rogue, "twitch skills" (or, you can just say "the ability to time your run") can avoid the vast majority of these; (3) even if you don't have a trap disabler, and you can't handle counting/timing a move, for many many of these traps you can find a way around them.

Nothing that was done to trap save DCs has made "twitch" skills critical. Not even on elite.

Last ... while we like to say that DDO requires twitch skills, as alluded to above, its a *very* low level of twitch skills. Its basically timing and some very imprecise mouse control. If you want to see real twitch skills, go play a FPS. The "twitch" required in here is so far removed from FPS twitch requirements as to make calling them both "twitch" borderline deceptive.

And don't forget, they did nothing to increase XP or rewards on elite to adjust for this new level of difficulty.

Sorry but there's nothing that justifies where it's at now for difficulty.

QuantumFX
02-09-2008, 01:59 PM
I'd be more interested to know how a group of 6 lvl 7-10 characters (including at least one rogue) would fare in the fire room in STK Elite pt 3.

Group of level 6-7's. I joined just as they got to the Fire Trap room. Rogue died 4 times. I was getting gear for running through traps since I was under the mistaken belief that the rogue was a newb. (Rogue actually knew what he was doing just not under this whole Mod 6 nonsense.)

I managed to make it through on my lvl 6 ranger thanks to a combination of Dwarven Toughness, Longstrider, a Potion of Prot from Fire, a 20pt fire resist pot, Jumping, Stopping, and praying my latency was going to be unusually low that run. Died once due to attempting rescue mission on one of the fighters.


Or a group of 12 lvl 16 rogues in VON5 elite trying to disable the door trap. You know the one Im talking about.

Guild rogue died once on that trap cause he was new to being the rogue in Von 5. Now the stupid fire jet is the big problem for me in that quest. Group clerics had to spam prot from fire/heals because the VoIP coordination is whacked in that quest. (3, 2, 1 Pull wait for 2-4 seconds for server to acknowledge that levers have been pulled.) The thing that really sucked is I died 4 times getting that timing down and getting the clerics to realize that they have yet another area to spam heal stuff at now. (Was not the rogue but I was the only other player with the mario skills to do the jumping part.)


Edit: The most disturbing part about the trap save DC's is that they created a thread where I agree with tekno...Scary.

Even scarier, MT and I are on the same side as well.

And people flamed me when I said having a 40+ reflex save is manditory for Rogue/Rangers. :rolleyes:

Raithe
02-09-2008, 10:41 PM
With the damage being so low relatively before the new mod it would make sense to increase the DCs to make sure players were being hit by something.

Characters that did not have evasion were getting hit everytime they didn't time the trap carefully, or jump it just right -even under pre-Mod6 conditions. They don't have evasion, so guess what: they take half damage regardless of their die roll. With such a significant increase in trap damage in Mod 6, they will be getting hit for dangerous amounts of damage even on a made reflex save. And among characters without evasion, only a few dex-strong paladins will be making their saves very often (and this is one of the major advantages to being paladin).

One of the many huge problems with quest design in DDO is that it is actually easier and faster to avoid the silly traps through timing than it is to disable them while standing inside them... or to disable them period. This change is utterly absurd on so many levels it isn't even funny.

Tanka
02-09-2008, 11:14 PM
Guild rogue died once on that trap cause he was new to being the rogue in Von 5. Now the stupid fire jet is the big problem for me in that quest. Group clerics had to spam prot from fire/heals because the VoIP coordination is whacked in that quest. (3, 2, 1 Pull wait for 2-4 seconds for server to acknowledge that levers have been pulled.) The thing that really sucked is I died 4 times getting that timing down and getting the clerics to realize that they have yet another area to spam heal stuff at now. (Was not the rogue but I was the only other player with the mario skills to do the jumping part.)
That one I gave up on Evading on Tanka and just timed it out. It goes another 3 fire blasts, then an immediate fire blast, followed by the air for two-three blasts, then back to fire.

So you just gotta watch it and jump in when it's air and not fire.

Even that one though, that's absurd. I saw a 16 roll on my saves and it failed. Now, I haven't been on in a few days, but if I recall, that'd be a 45. A 45 doesn't save. Talk about over the top.

Rog
02-09-2008, 11:31 PM
finding elite traps are a cake walk never had problem finding any trap in the game disarming cable for one on elite is a little tough but it gives a real rog somthing to strive for and by the way i did not GIMP MY ROG to do it just ate a lot of tomes:) p the rog is not a class that should be played by a newer player they are a expert class if ddo has any class that you should be really experieced to play it would be the rog so when they show you how gimped you made your rog you know its lack of expeince playing the class thnx again devs you did a GREAT JOB WITH THE NEW TRAP SYTEM.
P.S. if you run though a trap it will kill you hence the word TRAP we still use traps in today world they are called LAND MINES be carful where you walk you just might explode.
silentfoot

Raithe
02-10-2008, 02:28 AM
P.S. if you run though a trap it will kill you hence the word TRAP we still use traps in today world they are called LAND MINES be carful where you walk you just might explode.
silentfoot

So I take it your rogue fails reflex saves on elite all the time? Why'd you build a rogue?

BLITHELY
02-10-2008, 04:55 AM
For all u elitist players. U dont need a nightmare mode u jus need to play with less. Say like no armour, no items, no enhancements, no potions, no clerics, only masterwork weapons (bettr yet punch them to death). Do running with the devils on elite and put yr elite twitch skills to a real test. Hey join a permadeath guild and apply the aforementioned. Actually finish the quest, with the above conditions, and i will acknowledge u as the DDO gods u obviously believe u r.

As for the real topic of the thread I hope the devs reduce the trap dcs somwhat to be more in line with the level of the quests. I especially believe this needs to be done with traps that cannot be disabled and with content lvls 1-4. Afterall we want more people playing the game not less. The more accessiable the game is the more people will play and the more content we will get hopefully. Discouraging people right off the bat is never a good start.

Pellegro
02-10-2008, 10:57 AM
As for the real topic of the thread I hope the devs reduce the trap dcs somwhat to be more in line with the level of the quests. I especially believe this needs to be done with traps that cannot be disabled and with content lvls 1-4. Afterall we want more people playing the game not less. The more accessiable the game is the more people will play and the more content we will get hopefully. Discouraging people right off the bat is never a good start.

The topic of discussion is the difficulty of being able to ignore a trap, run through it, and make your save. On Elite.

The elite difficulty being the third and highest tier of difficulty should, in my opinion, have little to do with new players. Indeed, if elite is to mean anything at all, then it should mean that someone who doesn't know the quest and how to run it should fail.

For new players, we have both normal (which is now markedly easier with shrines that can be reused) and hard (where you give up shrines and face slightly more difficult challenges). Elite is the quest difficulty reserved for after you know the quest and how to beat it, and you want to up the challenge by increasing the penalty of making an error.

It provides replay possibilities to an otherwise static game.

Grond
02-10-2008, 11:23 AM
And don't forget, they did nothing to increase XP or rewards on elite to adjust for this new level of difficulty.

Sorry but there's nothing that justifies where it's at now for difficulty.

So run it on normal. The problem is that the perception is that elite is the default setting to run everything on. If you don't think the rewards for running elite justify the risks, then don't run elite.

bobbryan2
02-10-2008, 11:29 AM
On elite. Don't forget that important point.

SO WHAT IF IT'S ELITE!!!

You say that in every single solitary post like it's some kind of actual point. It's not! Elite is as much a part of this game as Normal. This reminds me of the crazily enhanced optional bosses in some elite quests. Like that spider over in that quest near STK. People would complain that he's like a CR 12 or whatever he is in a lvl 3 quest. And he wiped pretty much every party that went near because he didn't scale right.

And... people complained that he didn't scale right. And then there were about 4 pages of people chiming in... "Well, it's elite..." and "Elite's supposed to be a challenge"

Just because elite is supposed to be harder, doesn't give it a carte blanche to do whatever it wants.

Yes... they could put beholders and mindflayers into the Goodblade quests on elite, and it would be harder. But that's not what elite is.

Make your points about something not being over the top... but don't say that everything is justified because it has the word elite in them.

Attomic
02-10-2008, 11:32 AM
Oh yes let's not forget about the PHAT loot now available on elite. +1 Sacred Heavy Steel Shield of Lesser Lightning Resistance...

So do you think at some point you dev's can come back to reality and start making some sense? Yes, a Level 16 should be able to breeze through a level 12 mission.

Turbine sure goes a long way to slow people down. It must be saving them a ton of money on development costs. Fine job of that, seeing as how your new raid you spent 4 months working on was beaten in what, 3 days?

Were you dropped on your filter as a child?

bobbryan2
02-10-2008, 11:32 AM
So run it on normal. The problem is that the perception is that elite is the default setting to run everything on. If you don't think the rewards for running elite justify the risks, then don't run elite.

The 'problem' is the perceived idea that elite has to be souped up to 'unplayable' status in an effort to make people run normal quests.

BLITHELY
02-10-2008, 01:32 PM
The topic of discussion is the difficulty of being able to ignore a trap, run through it, and make your save. On Elite.

The elite difficulty being the third and highest tier of difficulty should, in my opinion, have little to do with new players. Indeed, if elite is to mean anything at all, then it should mean that someone who doesn't know the quest and how to run it should fail.

For new players, we have both normal (which is now markedly easier with shrines that can be reused) and hard (where you give up shrines and face slightly more difficult challenges). Elite is the quest difficulty reserved for after you know the quest and how to beat it, and you want to up the challenge by increasing the penalty of making an error.

It provides replay possibilities to an otherwise static game.


Of course it provides for replay possibilities. The game requires running these quests on elite if u want your extra backpack spaces or the xp to lvl. A DC of 30 on a first lvl quest on elite is a whee bit ridiculous. But we will never agree u are obviously part of the elitist crowd which is fine. My guild and I will continue to run on elite and will beat the quests as we always do but we are not typical. For most people this is a game not an occupation that is who it should be designed to. U need it to be harder take my previous suggestions to heart and make it harder for yourself not everyone else.

Raithe
02-10-2008, 01:57 PM
The topic of discussion is the difficulty of a rogue or ranger being able to ignore a trap, run through it, and make his/her save. On Elite, in a quest 4 levels lower than him/her.

Fixed it for ya. Maybe you can start addressing the actual conversation now.

Raithe
02-10-2008, 02:18 PM
For anyone that cares, I ran Ghola Fan last night on elite, and my main failed a combined roll of 45 in the trap training room, while successful on a combined roll of 48. So DCs are in the 46-48 range.

Died on the last scissor blade traps twice. The first time I couldn't actually see the last set of blades, and while DDO has good graphics, they sometimes aren't good enough. Without extensive foreknowledge and good recollection, a huge problem with the room is that nothing is really visible until you are in it. The second time it looked like I had timed it right, but then three quarters of a second later I was rubberbanded back to the middle of the final scissor trap and failed both my saves. ISP or server lag had gotten me.

Thank goodness my character has a 22 base dex, four levels of rogue with uncanny dodge, dex enhancements, trap sense enhancements, haste, greater heroism, and a parrying weapon or I wouldn't have made 2 out of 8 saves. Well, one of those 2 was a 20, so really 1 out of 8. Makes my character development choices just sing with usefulness. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh yeah, and a 46 AC (probably less than the reflex saves required), stoneskin, and blur & sometimes displacement was more than enough to handle the elite ogres, wargs, and bugbears. I hardly got touched.

Vormaerin
02-10-2008, 09:03 PM
Exactly. The traps are out of line with the rest of the quest. To the point that they do the opposite of what they intend: they make rogues less relevant because the rogues can't do what's expected of them unless they focused on trap saves intensely.

Arguments that the player's mouse control skill should replace the game mechanics and that's cool just don't fly with me. Its great that you can do stuff like dodge shots or time traps. But the core mechanics (AC, reflex saves) need to remain relevant because this is a character based RPG, not an FPS.

Grond
02-10-2008, 10:37 PM
The 'problem' is the perceived idea that elite has to be souped up to 'unplayable' status in an effort to make people run normal quests.

We're not finding it unplayable at all. 28 point build (first character I made in headstart) 12 rogue, 2 ranger, 1 wizard.

bobbryan2
02-10-2008, 10:41 PM
We're not finding it unplayable at all. 28 point build (first character I made in headstart) 12 rogue, 2 ranger, 1 wizard.

I didn't say it was currently unplayable.

But that's what your arguments ultimately boil down to. Elite should be made harder and harder so that people finally think that normal is the 'normal' difficulty for most groups.

But I'm one of those people that think elite should just be about 2 levels higher than the base quest and give about 2 levels better rewards. And right now... traps on an elite lvl 2 quest are harder than a lvl 4 quest on normal, and I think that should be fixed.

DasLurch
02-10-2008, 11:08 PM
As far as I can tell the whole thing is fine at upper levels. I am not saying it's perfectly fine at lowwer ones, but even the lowwest level quests coould be rough on elite for low level players. I'm liking the changes so far. I think that the biggest snag this has for people is the way it effects their low level favor gathering. It won't be too long before soomeone finds a way around it though.

winsom
02-11-2008, 05:10 AM
until the devs lower the elite reflex DCs there are certain quests that knowledgeable players will simply not do on elite.

The +1 chest loot means less and less with every new Update. Why risk elite traps for +1 chests when you can wait two levels and get the same chests without playing elite? If elite play becomes less popular for some quests I will be happy, actually.

I guess it depends on the dungeon level. Someone told me the newest dungeons in the Vale need to be played on Hard to have a chance of unbound +2 tomes. Thats a reason to risk Hard, but not necessarily Elite.

Tanka
02-11-2008, 06:22 AM
I guess it depends on the dungeon level. Someone told me the newest dungeons in the Vale need to be played on Hard to have a chance of unbound +2 tomes. Thats a reason to risk Hard, but not necessarily Elite.
Incorrect. First night, somebody in my group pulled an unbound +2 Wis tome as an end reward from Running With The Devils.

Grond
02-11-2008, 07:11 AM
I didn't say it was currently unplayable.

But that's what your arguments ultimately boil down to. Elite should be made harder and harder so that people finally think that normal is the 'normal' difficulty for most groups.

But I'm one of those people that think elite should just be about 2 levels higher than the base quest and give about 2 levels better rewards. And right now... traps on an elite lvl 2 quest are harder than a lvl 4 quest on normal, and I think that should be fixed.

Sorry, I thought you were saying that elite had been souped up to an unplayable level.

I'm not arguing that it should be increased; I'm arguing against the outcry that it has been made impossible. Personally I wasn't unhappy with things before, I didn't feel like it needed to change, although there were certainly people that did. All I am saying is, with everyone ranting that it's too hard, my guild is still dragging me into everything on elite, just like before. I'm perfectly content to go on normal, some of them aren't. We aren't finding anything impossible, I am noticing that they wait for the rogue to disarm now. :D

bobbryan2
02-11-2008, 09:00 AM
Incorrect. First night, somebody in my group pulled an unbound +2 Wis tome as an end reward from Running With The Devils.

It's correct. You have to run the quests on a minimum of hard to have a +2 tome drop out of a chest.

MysticTheurge
02-11-2008, 09:12 AM
It's correct. You have to run the quests on a minimum of hard to have a +2 tome drop out of a chest.

Does this mean end rewards are actually higher level "chests" than the chests in the quest on normal?

tihocan
02-11-2008, 09:23 AM
Does this mean end rewards are actually higher level "chests" than the chests in the quest on normal?
Yes, they have been for a while now. My own guess is +1, some say +2.

bobbryan2
02-11-2008, 09:29 AM
Does this mean end rewards are actually higher level "chests" than the chests in the quest on normal?

Yep, was changed around Mod 4 to make the end rewards more rewarding than just normal chests in the quest. It was in response to the complaint that end rewards were never as good as what you got in the quest, so there is no incentive to ever finish the quest.