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baddax
02-02-2008, 02:50 PM
Ive been playing ddo for 2 years and this is my first thread so please be kind lol!
This post is about balance its not about why did you nerf X class or Y class is over powered and unfair!
This post is if you have a balance issue, which i think is what i believe DDO is striving and should be striving for. The way i see it everone pays the same subscription fee so we should all be on equal footing. Thats not to say that a poorly designed character/build should be the same as a good one but that all character classes should be on equal footing. I dont like to be in groups where one character class dominates. Ie. wizzies and sorc. up til recently have ruled much of ddo. Dont believe me? Step into the PvP area. Thats not to say a well disigned rogue or ranger or other class cant dominate but its Very difficult to do. The same for quests, i see more and more Casters running around with "1000 point fireballs" which, I have no problem with but it detracts from questing when its the watch the wizzie or any X class show. i run mainly melee type characters so maybe im biased towards melee classes. Anyways like i said this is not a bash the wizzie or any class but a balance thread any balance issues are welcome, and hopefully the Devs will read some of them and see some constructive ideas/critisism and make some changes in the up comming mods. Also posts that help deal with balance are also welcome ie. " X player is having problems with X" and "y will help overcome that".

Samadhi
02-02-2008, 02:54 PM
Play at lvls 1-4; where a well built melee can walk through an entire quest and the caster is out of mana after only a couple battles; it's the nature of DnD; my advice (because it's what I did) was respec my melees' strategies so that it is still beneficial - there are a lot of threads on this subject out there if you are looking for ideas. Especially in the newest release, though, there are a lot of quests that are pushing the value of melees up again.

baddax
02-02-2008, 03:38 PM
Cool, so ill just stop at lvl 4 then i will rule DDO! Oh, and I took my sheild mastery 1,2,3 with +5 mithril tower shield, so i can shield block with the best of em! Seroisly though, thats just my balance issue i have no problem with casters and dont think they are overpowered. Yeah and i agree with you melee is on the upswing Except the 5th attack nerf. I just want to be clear this is not a this class is overpowered thread or a wizzie/sorc. bashing thread just any balance issues. Ie. the new elitel level traps i think are great for all the rogues out their. i mean i rememebr having many conversations like" do we need a rogue for this quest?", "nahh i got protect/ ressit we'll be ok". I think every class should have at least 1 moment in 99% of the quests to shine. JMO though.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 04:00 PM
Melee < Caster Is a myth, the discussion has been brought up over and over, and it lacks credibility. For a real example I have a character that averages 60 points in a swing and gets 4 swings in in 2 secs that 240 damage every 2 secs and I could twf but i shoose to s+b him if I twf that would be about 440 because 2nd weapon would do less but with new OTWF i could do the same, so 480 damage every 2 secs average possible damage. Also I have 3x the HP a caster does, Ive got immunity to alot of stuff from equip/abilities, that a caster wont have because he/she needs spell boost items and sp boost and more ability boost items than I do I need dex,con,str and can live without dex really as a fighter a caster needs their caster ability for casting dex and con and it helps to have a decent str against drains. they also need items to stop negative affects more. Oh and casters run out of the ability to do damage when sp is gone.

I can do my damage all day live longer have less bad effects on me, have more time to heal, help peeps with aggro on them and not fear dying myself, and I'm only at lvl 10. You sacrafice very little in exchange to not do 500-750 in 1 hit, because I can get about 2/3 of the damage and I have more kills end of quest 80% of the time over the casters, and I die less, and dont have to worry about what I use on what because if I do this now I wont be able to do it later.

It's an out right myth and stop bringing it up, plz. Take some time to actually look at the pros and cons of each it balances fairly well. On the other note the game was structured around PvE not PvP which is why no-one plays pvp in the game really.

baddax
02-02-2008, 05:58 PM
Now thats a good post! I agree completely, except the PvP vs PvE part. Sure the main focus is on PvE but theres nothing better that i like than a good Bar Brawl! Maybe its the dwarven fighter in me lol! I think the PvP potential is still primarily untapped resource in DDO. thus the lack of leader board 2+ years into the game. Although the last mod seen an expansion of the PvP aspect, im sure (hope) there is more to come. On that note i would like to see Sneak work in PvP, it would Balance the rogue out more. Nothing would be more scary than a rogue drop into invisible/ sneak mode in PvP and the caster with the 12 spot/ listen start to sweat!
And yes the main advantage to melee is that they have no spell points to worry about. But if you are like me i always keep a few memonic enhancers on hand for after the wizzie blows his wa... spell points on finger of death X100 on the kobold mob! but only when i really need him lol.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 06:12 PM
Now thats a good post! I agree completely, except the PvP vs PvE part. Sure the main focus is on PvE but theres nothing better that i like than a good Bar Brawl! Maybe its the dwarven fighter in me lol! I think the PvP potential is still primarily untapped resource in DDO. thus the lack of leader board 2+ years into the game. Although the last mod seen an expansion of the PvP aspect, im sure (hope) there is more to come. On that note i would like to see Sneak work in PvP, it would Balance the rogue out more. Nothing would be more scary than a rogue drop into invisible/ sneak mode in PvP and the caster with the 12 spot/ listen start to sweat!
And yes the main advantage to melee is that they have no spell points to worry about. But if you are like me i always keep a few memonic enhancers on hand for after the wizzie blows his wa... spell points on finger of death X100 on the kobold mob! but only when i really need him lol.

Honestly every game I've ever played I hate the PvP, because it gives peeps big heads and makes for more pompus idiots in the game.

Angelus_dead
02-02-2008, 06:13 PM
I can do my damage all day live longer have less bad effects on me, have more time to heal, help peeps with aggro on them and not fear dying myself, and I'm only at lvl 10.
If you're only level 10, you have not yet had enough experience to make a judgement on the subject of balance.

boldarblood
02-02-2008, 06:16 PM
I can do my damage all day live longer have less bad effects on me, have more time to heal, help peeps with aggro on them and not fear dying myself, and I'm only at lvl 10. You sacrafice very little in exchange to not do 500-750 in 1 hit, because I can get about 2/3 of the damage and I have more kills end of quest 80% of the time over the casters, and I die less, and dont have to worry about what I use on what because if I do this now I wont be able to do it later.

It's an out right myth and stop bringing it up, plz. Take some time to actually look at the pros and cons of each it balances fairly well. On the other note the game was structured around PvE not PvP which is why no-one plays pvp in the game really.


At only level 10 you should be still ahead of the caster. That will change very soon, as you get higher up in levels almost every caster will suprass you, as it should be. Casters > Melee at end game elite content.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 06:28 PM
If you're only level 10, you have not yet had enough experience to make a judgement on the subject of balance.

I'm going by my current character, because its what I'm currently playing and dont want the, well maybe you dont rem correctly. The fact of the matter is, theres parts where I let the casters do there part and theres times when they let me do mine, its covering each others short-comings. Just like I have versatility to be able to change up what im doing in mere seconds while a wizzy needs to make it to a shrine to change up, and a sorc is screwed if they focus on 1 thing and its not working in the current dungeon. I've played numerous fighter builds, pnp and ddo and I'm frankly sick of the "his char is more powerful than me, and I want it balanced". Only thing this accomplishes is nerfing of classes, which leads to a crappy game because the mobs are getting harder and your getting weaker and then the game becomes unplayable. Seriously, classes are made so theres diff things to make and your not stuck making the same thing over and over. If you dont like that your char is gimped try a diff build. If I could get my screenshots to save correctly I'll do every single dungeon and take a SS of the xp info at the end, and show you that this melee caster debate is bs. You want advice on a decent build I'll share, I say decent because I dont claim to be pro at all, and there are alot of fighters out there doing alot more damage than me. It's not all about the damage number, theres alot more than that to take in account. The D&D system has been around before most of us were even born, maybe diff stages but obviously its worked. I have alot of ideas bout what turbine should be doing, but I think they did a great job on the class balancing, theres like 3% wrong with it, and nothings perfect so I can deal with 3%.

baddax
02-02-2008, 06:43 PM
Once again "this is Not about nerf this class" or "My tank is more poferful than your wizzie" .
balance:
4. a. A state of bodily equilibrium:
b. The ability to maintain bodily equilibrium: Gymnasts must have good balance.
5. A stable mental or psychological state; emotional stability.
6. A harmonious or satisfying arrangement or proportion of parts or elements, as in a design. See Synonyms at proportion.
7. An influence or force tending to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.

This is a thread to Promote Balance. If you are stating that your character or whatever is better than Y character this is not the thread. Actually you are saying that it is unbalanced! The OPPOSITE of this thread. If you have 1) an IDEA to promote balance or 2) A Solution to Create Or Increase Balance this is the Thread! Maybe you have a rogue that gets lost in the party trying, to increase his usefulness to the party? this is the thread. Maybe you have a Pally who feels he doesnt do enough DPS? This is the thread. (Then We can say try a vorpal or whatever) ie. a problems + idea = solution(balance). Maybe you have a situation that you ran into that created an unbalanced party and you did Y to become a more active member of the party. This is the tread. Im not sure of any other way to stae it? Hable Enlish?

baddax
02-02-2008, 06:47 PM
Honestly every game I've ever played I hate the PvP, because it gives peeps big heads and makes for more pompus idiots in the game.
. I think for you to blame PvP for giving people the big head is like blaming food for making people ... well u get the picture.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 06:56 PM
Once again "this is Not about nerf this class" or "My tank is more poferful than your wizzie" .
balance:
4. a. A state of bodily equilibrium:
b. The ability to maintain bodily equilibrium: Gymnasts must have good balance.
5. A stable mental or psychological state; emotional stability.
6. A harmonious or satisfying arrangement or proportion of parts or elements, as in a design. See Synonyms at proportion.
7. An influence or force tending to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.

This is a thread to Promote Balance. If you are stating that your character or whatever is better than Y character this is not the thread. Actually you are saying that it is unbalanced! The OPPOSITE of this thread. If you have 1) an IDEA to promote balance or 2) A Solution to Create Or Increase Balance this is the Thread! Maybe you have a rogue that gets lost in the party trying, to increase his usefulness to the party? this is the thread. Maybe you have a Pally who feels he doesnt do enough DPS? This is the thread. (Then We can say try a vorpal or whatever) ie. a problems + idea = solution(balance). Maybe you have a situation that you ran into that created an unbalanced party and you did Y to become a more active member of the party. This is the tread. Im not sure of any other way to stae it? Hable Enlish?

lol rogues actually fall in that 3% of balance I have issue with, especially with the new mod, because now even if you have a rogue to do the things you cant he cant even make the saves now, heightening the damage promotes having a rogue to disable them making peeps more wanting of a rogue, and dont feel useless with a full rogue at 14th lvl, upping the dc to save against the trap means it can be gotten past by even the best rogue, and its still not worth wasting the party slot with one, not that I personnally refuse rogues. I was just stating some advantages the melee has over the caster, and didnt go into what the caster hs over the melee because it seems apparent to most.

I get what your saying, but normally it leads down to a nerf because peeps dont wanna pump up other classes to meet up with the "OVERPOWERED". They'd rather nerf, then build on. Honestly I'm not having an issue with the fighters as they are now at lvl 16, but they need to add things for fighters for the drop off in content available to fighters past 12th lvl when it ups to 18th level because theres still good choices to take, but after this I forsee my 2 feat slots at 18th lvl having no good feats to fill them at 18. They do need to plan on grabbing somethings outa the additional supplemental content in the pnp version to incorporate for fighters past 12th lvl, but until we go past 18th lvl I dont see it as an issue. I'll be the first on here tho, if when they increase to 18th lvl they have not added feats/enhancements for fighters to take, to ask for it so my fighter is still effective beyond 16.

baddax
02-02-2008, 06:59 PM
Maybe my first post was misleading i was only using that for an example, it doesnt reflect my opinion on the current state of DDO characters. For the record I have a" tank build that reagluarly leads kill counts and is hardly ever below #2. But thats not the point either. Kill counts dont really matter. The enjoyment of the game and the completion of the quest matters. If i only have 1 kill but contribute to the success of the quest and dont die (too much) then im happy. Actualy i think they should the eliminate kill count completely!

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 06:59 PM
. I think for you to blame PvP for giving people the big head is like blaming food for making people ... well u get the picture.

I've pvp'ed on GW DIABLO2 WOW halo, just to name a few, and almost always if I'm not the one that wins i gotta listen to trash talking and how bad-ass the other person/team was.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 07:05 PM
Maybe my first post was misleading i was only using that for an example, it doesnt reflect my opinion on the current state of DDO characters. For the record I have a" tank build that reagluarly leads kill counts and is hardly ever below #2. But thats not the point either. Kill counts dont really matter. The enjoyment of the game and the completion of the quest matters. If i only have 1 kill but contribute to the success of the quest and dont die (too much) then im happy. Actualy i think they should the eliminate kill count completely!

Nah I like the kill count lets me know if my build is worth keeping. I dont think I'm worth more if I have more kills in the xp box, but it lets me know I'm doing what I'm suppose to do, I also wanted a little hp's healed to be added to it for my cleric, so I could see how much I was doing, and have a comparison on groups I run with, like ok normally I heal 1200 points at the end of the mission, were only 1/6th in and ive alrdy done 900, maybe I should let my party know we need to strategize differently. I really only mentioned the kill count thing because alot of peeps base their oppinions on numbers most of which is only damage done in one cast/swing and kill count, which I wasnt much directing completely at you, but a grouping of peeps on the boards, that would post in here accordingly.

baddax
02-02-2008, 10:24 PM
lol rogues actually fall in that 3% of balance I have issue with, especially with the new mod, because now even if you have a rogue to do the things you cant he cant even make the saves now, heightening the damage promotes having a rogue to disable them making peeps more wanting of a rogue, and dont feel useless with a full rogue at 14th lvl, upping the dc to save against the trap means it can be gotten past by even the best rogue, and its still not worth wasting the party slot with one, not that I personnally refuse rogues. I was just stating some advantages the melee has over the caster, and didnt go into what the caster hs over the melee because it seems apparent to most.

I get what your saying, but normally it leads down to a nerf because peeps dont wanna pump up other classes to meet up with the "OVERPOWERED". They'd rather nerf, then build on. Honestly I'm not having an issue with the fighters as they are now at lvl 16, but they need to add things for fighters for the drop off in content available to fighters past 12th lvl when it ups to 18th level because theres still good choices to take, but after this I forsee my 2 feat slots at 18th lvl having no good feats to fill them at 18. They do need to plan on grabbing somethings outa the additional supplemental content in the pnp version to incorporate for fighters past 12th lvl, but until we go past 18th lvl I dont see it as an issue. I'll be the first on here tho, if when they increase to 18th lvl they have not added feats/enhancements for fighters to take, to ask for it so my fighter is still effective beyond 16.

Did you mean can't be gotten by? If so thats interesting. It seems turbine was attempting to make rogues more valuable but possilby made them useless as they cannot get past traps to disable them? i have one experience with the new dc's of traps. i have an evasion build that needed a 45 to save on an elite trap in chains of flame i made in another post.if so maybe u can elaborate.

I have a friend of mine who is a lvl 12 dwarven fighter and is running into a simular situation with "good feats" ive even heard him use " extra feats" which makes me laugh because i mainly build multiclass builds and NEVER have that problem. i told him go with toughness it never hurts to have x2-3 toughness feats for the extra hp i guess. Which brings me to another topic Multiclass which i think is the way to go in most cases. The way i see it the feat selection gets more experience as u single class which make multiclassing more of an option. Also i think its nice to be able to build a 2 fer ie. 1 character that can fill 2 positions in the party and or add to his/her own self sufficency. like a rogue,cleric 2 classes that are always needed and can be combined with most other classes well. so for example i sign on as X character and say i have 6 rogue or or bard. i can either self buff/heal or be the back up trap monkey. if its elite i can just say "i only dabble in traps if u want a Full rogue u will have to find someone else".

The "Nerf" issue. thats why i have ben careful to state and Restate "not a nerf this class" thread.

baddax
02-02-2008, 10:34 PM
Nah I like the kill count lets me know if my build is worth keeping. I dont think I'm worth more if I have more kills in the xp box, but it lets me know I'm doing what I'm suppose to do, I also wanted a little hp's healed to be added to it for my cleric, so I could see how much I was doing, and have a comparison on groups I run with, like ok normally I heal 1200 points at the end of the mission, were only 1/6th in and ive alrdy done 900, maybe I should let my party know we need to strategize differently. I really only mentioned the kill count thing because alot of peeps base their oppinions on numbers most of which is only damage done in one cast/swing and kill count, which I wasnt much directing completely at you, but a grouping of peeps on the boards, that would post in here accordingly.

I think the kill count should be eliminated because it promotes zerging and says killing is whats most important. i would like to see it changed to maybe a participation percent ie. to include party participation. ie count should include: rogues to disable. clerics for healing/ turn etc.

I cant tell you how many times i have been i quests and leading in the kill count and see the sorc/wiz/barbarian begin zerging to get his numbers ahead of mine. I just sit back and laugh and wait for his/her health bar to begin to fall and go and bail him/her out when needed lmao. i have also been known to experience strange lag issues when solo party members go off and zerg wildly (when the rest of the party is not). Im not sure why this lag issue pops up then, oh well must be a game flaw. Anyone else have that or similar lag problems?

baddax
02-03-2008, 01:59 AM
Just got done doing some quick research on the "new trap situation". It looks to me like their might need to be some more adjustments to the DC's of some of the traps, especially the ones without the switches or with switches on the other side. I for one am on record as saying that im for making the rogue a more valuable party member but they do need to be able to do their job. I think this was an attempt to Balance the evasion builds ie. anything /+2 rogue. Which i dont have a problem with either but i want to throw this out their. The other option that comes quickly to mind is to nerf evasion and or evasoin builds even further (mithril full plate anyone?). Which i also go on record as saying i am definitely AGAINST! So hopefully the Dev's can come to some sort of compromise and let me say again " NOT NERF EVASION BUILDS". Oh and to all the Dev's out their " have i told you how well you look today? Yes, its true Stunning Really. stunning have you been working out?"

Knightrose
02-03-2008, 02:07 AM
15+ is beyond good. They tweaked Balance a while back to make getting up even easier.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-03-2008, 02:20 AM
Just got done doing some quick research on the "new trap situation". It looks to me like their might need to be some more adjustments to the DC's of some of the traps, especially the ones without the switches or with switches on the other side. I for one am on record as saying that im for making the rogue a more valuable party member but they do need to be able to do their job. I think this was an attempt to Balance the evasion builds ie. anything /+2 rogue. Which i dont have a problem with either but i want to throw this out their. The other option that comes quickly to mind is to nerf evasion and or evasoin builds even further (mithril full plate anyone?). Which i also go on record as saying i am definitely AGAINST! So hopefully the Dev's can come to some sort of compromise and let me say again " NOT NERF EVASION BUILDS". Oh and to all the Dev's out their " have i told you how well you look today? Yes, its true Stunning Really. stunning have you been working out?"

Evasion only works with light armor mith full plate is medium. It used to work with all armor, but they balanced it because of batman builds ie ranger/paly/rogue

USB
02-03-2008, 02:30 AM
Balance, now there is a tough one. Should a dps barb outkill a sorc, wizzy, rogue, ranger. I dont care for that, neither should anyone else for that matter. Just the other day i was runnnig with my lvl 15 ranger and not one kill. Nada. Was i unhappy, i even mentionned it to everyone that i didnt kill squat. But by golly everything was paralysed so tanks, barbs, bards, rogue, hey even the clr was wacking at stuff. I was outkilled by the clr for petes sake but im glad i didnt cause everyone had a blast. + side quest went very good, a bit long but no excessive healing cause no ones getting hit. well u get my point. i got a sorc, clr, ftr, barb. they all have there use. get 3 sorcs 1 clr 2 ftrs, what do u think is going to happen, they are gonna finger, pk, banish u name it. u get one wizzy one clr rest fighters, what do u get? a swinging frenzy.

All is full of love

GlassCannon
02-03-2008, 02:52 AM
Lots of bricks of text in this thread. I'll add one that is actually readable.

Each Module shines the limelight on a specific set of classes. MOD 1 showed the tanks some loving, MOD 2 helped the casters and

rogues out(Drow). MOD 3 showed the Rangers the loving they had been wanting since release(finally! Shooting and reloading while

moving!). MOD 4 showed the clerics some love(more SP!) but nerfed them at the same time(enhancement lines cost so much...).

MOD 5 showed the casters some serious love, and everyone got jealous. MOD 6 showed the tank classes and particularly Rangers

some loving, and introduces a balancing factor for everyone: Player Item Creation.

For anyone complaining about balance, go pick up some Pen and Paper books and please oh please look for balance in PnP. There

is no real balance and never will be any real balance.


The folks at Turbine are doing an alarmingly good job at bringing balance to a game that never had balance. Stop bashing their

tedious works and provide constructive points.


Also, I am very tired and will read the remainig half of the thread I didn't read due to the text being in huge disorganized clumps.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-03-2008, 03:02 AM
Lots of bricks of text in this thread. I'll add one that is actually readable.

Each Module shines the limelight on a specific set of classes. MOD 1 showed the tanks some loving, MOD 2 helped the casters and

rogues out(Drow). MOD 3 showed the Rangers the loving they had been wanting since release(finally! Shooting and reloading while

moving!). MOD 4 showed the clerics some love(more SP!) but nerfed them at the same time(enhancement lines cost so much...).

MOD 5 showed the casters some serious love, and everyone got jealous. MOD 6 showed the tank classes and particularly Rangers

some loving, and introduces a balancing factor for everyone: Player Item Creation.

For anyone complaining about balance, go pick up some Pen and Paper books and please oh please look for balance in PnP. There

is no real balance and never will be any real balance.


The folks at Turbine are doing an alarmingly good job at bringing balance to a game that never had balance. Stop bashing their

tedious works and provide constructive points.


Also, I am very tired and will read the remainig half of the thread I didn't read due to the text being in huge disorganized clumps.


not trying to push a point I dont agree with in the first place but tanks got love in this mod? Besides rangers, I dont think ne class really got love this mod. I mean yeah sure theres otwf and diehard, but thats a glass of milk not love my friend. Not saying I dont like milk, but c'mon, and rangers gotta wait a lil longer for that otwf. Also the Attack speeds went down, tho I dont really give a **** about it, others seem to? I mean sepllies got some new spells so i think that evens out with the like 2 feats fighters got. But still the balance here is good, and if your a good dm pnp balance is easy(just make everyone play the same thing, lol jk). PnP is a basis of rules to work with it's up to the dm to make things fair, thats what turbine is, they are a dm, and no dm is perfect but the balance is definatel with the center target.

baddax
02-03-2008, 02:01 PM
Good point, party makeup makes a Big difference. x2 casters is x2 the spell points. A Cleric light? ie. Bard. party might not want 600 hp dwarven babrbarian running in drawing alot of agro, and be more crowd control. I would also add quest content into mix. Dungeons? shield block and firewall works well. Wilderness spaces and rangers with paralizing bows and Crowd control work well. Which i would say falls into Strategy and Communication. ie " Lets try pulling the giants into this area and throw some dancing balls here and if this happens do X".

GlassCannon
02-03-2008, 02:10 PM
Is a party with all pure classes, and one of each class type.

Ranger Paladin Rogue Cleric Bard Wizard

Another well balanced party I ran in:

Sorc Cleric Wiz Rog Barb Rgr

This is an example of an *almost* balanced party:

Bard Bbn Clr Sor Wiz Rog

Remember, no multiclasses, just pures.

GlassCannon
02-03-2008, 02:15 PM
This module has pushed casters backward in the scope of things, with the most powerful damage casters being castrated by blanket

immunities to their primary spells on the major population of monsters. Now it's back to the SR game and casters are no longer able

to continue killing things themselves with damage. They got pushed back to a MOD 1 stance. The Tanks, however, are moving along

normally. Their progression(game) has not been interrupted, and they got another attack. Rangers got another feat and favored

enemy, and got enhancement lines for specialists(They are a Tank subclass, but are very hard to play right). Clerics got pushed back

again by higher damage monsters and developer crowd strategy in the AI(Teleporting monsters!). Clerics are really hurting in this mod.


Basically: Tanks are still moving ahead as usual. Everyone else got shoved WAY back.

baddax
02-03-2008, 02:42 PM
Lots of bricks of text in this thread. I'll add one that is actually readable.

Each Module shines the limelight on a specific set of classes. MOD 1 showed the tanks some loving, MOD 2 helped the casters and

rogues out(Drow). MOD 3 showed the Rangers the loving they had been wanting since release(finally! Shooting and reloading while

moving!). MOD 4 showed the clerics some love(more SP!) but nerfed them at the same time(enhancement lines cost so much...).

MOD 5 showed the casters some serious love, and everyone got jealous. MOD 6 showed the tank classes and particularly Rangers

some loving, and introduces a balancing factor for everyone: Player Item Creation.

For anyone complaining about balance, go pick up some Pen and Paper books and please oh please look for balance in PnP. There

is no real balance and never will be any real balance.


The folks at Turbine are doing an alarmingly good job at bringing balance to a game that never had balance. Stop bashing their

tedious works and provide constructive points.


Also, I am very tired and will read the remainig half of the thread I didn't read due to the text being in huge disorganized clumps.


1)Well im not sure if its something i did or exactly what the problem is with "bricks", but like i said this my first thread so any suggestions would be appreciated.
Although i am encouraged by the fact that "its disorganized clumps and yet you still are interested in reading it".

2)As far as DnD in vs DDO i think that "There is no real balancein PnP and never will be" i cannot speak to anything above 2.0 as that is when i stopped playing PnP as its now called, lol. But i never felt any Unbalanced issues in PnP, although i was usualy primarily the DM, and as DM it was my job to make sure everyone got involved in the quest. "Jay the rogue over their looks board and is falling asleep, ill throw him that nasty trap/ puzzle i was thinking about in 3 period and wake him up lol" etc. Maybe thats why you cant find Balance in DnD. Old school DnD, the balance was always in the hands of the DM. (Now the GM). My guess its still the same way (an real life PnP DM's out their can chime in).

3)But i had a mian figher with girdle of Storm gaints Brawn and some artifact (cut me some slack its been 18 years) like Thors hammer that gave me more or less unlimited strenght 25+(old school dnd players might be able to help me out on this one)? Hows that for balance? Also as you pointed DDO is not DnD and the big difference I see is its not a group of "real life friends " but a paid subscription, and i feal that if i pay mymoney and I spend 100 hours to build a good rogue/ftr/sor whatever then i should have some role to play in a quest no matter how small. Good example " ghost of perdition " i see many caster only runs ie. cleric/ wizzy. almost exclusively! So if i need this i need to put to gether a guild run. So whats the point? how hard would it be to throw a trap or 2 and make a rogue a requirement?

4)Lastly why would you say "alarmingly good job?" i would say they are doing an Extremely good job. Not to say there is no room for improvements, ie. 3-5% or so as anoother poster pointed out. But i would say that its the 3-5% that we are interested in in this thread. And yes we are interested in CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. No one that ive seen is bashing turbine in this post, if anything we are pointing out their efforts to "Balance" a very complex WORLD system. My hats off to them for a dificult and thankless job.

Invalid_86
02-03-2008, 06:40 PM
Bummer. I thought from the title of this thread it was talking about Balance skill. I was going to mention how much time my characters spend on their butts when fighting air elemental types despite actually having points in Balance!

Invalid_86
02-03-2008, 06:44 PM
For anyone complaining about balance, go pick up some Pen and Paper books and please oh please look for balance in PnP. There

is no real balance and never will be any real balance.
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PnP, while not perfect, is pretty darn close to being balanced. Plus you have a DM keeping an eye on things. The mistake Turbine made was inflating everything to close to insane levels- then not having an involved DM. Thus our problems. Now people are getting used to it, thinking it's a "norm" of some sort, and cry at the thought of things truly getting rolled back to a balanced point. So right off the bat we started in a hole.