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Aladon
02-01-2008, 09:52 AM
I imagine that the damage (and, apparently, DC) increases will get lots of discussion here. However, I want to raise one clear problematic unintended consequence of this change.

Traps with no disable option (fire corridor in Scoundrel's Run, Lightning Room in The Pit, etc) suddenly make those quests un-doable at quest level. It's one thing to make traps that can be disabled lethal to add real consequence to ignoring them. But traps that can't be disabled are a permanent, unavoidable element in a dungeon. I would submit that there's almost no way a 9th level party can now complete Scoundrel's Run. Maybe the leetest of the leet, maybe. But an average party? No way.

So I humbly beseech the Dev Gods to take a good look as un-disableable traps and return them to their old levels. It wasn't like both of the above traps weren't hard already.

Best wishes,

Aladon

Razvan
02-01-2008, 10:18 AM
Actually you can still complete those quests...on normal
On hard...well, the quests are HARDER to complete...
And of course elite is for the L33T players...as it should have been from the start...

So in my opinion all is fair!

Club'in
02-01-2008, 10:22 AM
Those were already some of the toughest traps this side of STK if you're at level. Now they're harder? :eek:

Aladon
02-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Actually you can still complete those quests...on normal
On hard...well, the quests are HARDER to complete...
And of course elite is for the L33T players...as it should have been from the start...

So in my opinion all is fair!

Two things:

1) Remember what I'm talking about is traps which CANNOT be disabled yet MUST be passed. In such cases, it is possible to make the quest impossible even for leet players. My argument is the Scoundrel's Run fire corridor borders on impossible for a party at quest level, however leet. I suspect other similar situations (like The Pit's lightning room) are the same.

2) Please, try these traps before you comment. They are very different then before.

Aladon

Razvan
02-01-2008, 12:28 PM
Two things:

1) Remember what I'm talking about is traps which CANNOT be disabled yet MUST be passed. In such cases, it is possible to make the quest impossible even for leet players. My argument is the Scoundrel's Run fire corridor borders on impossible for a party at quest level, however leet. I suspect other similar situations (like The Pit's lightning room) are the same.

2) Please, try these traps before you comment. They are very different then before.

Aladon


You mean you can't just run through traps anymore?..You know, zerg ahead, get hit by fire, igonre it, pull the lever, get the item, whatever, and then go back through the traps?...You mean you actually have to have some sort of strategy, like a friend to heal you constantly, or you might have to stop refresh your fire prot, heal yourself, you know...take some time to get through it?...OMG...that's tragic!

oh yeah, and nobody said that because a quest on elite is level 9, it is designed to be completed by ANY level 9 character...ELITE is ELITE, and just because it hasn't been implemented the way it is now, from the start, doesn't mean that THIS is the wrong version...Just like the raid loot system, just like the new death penalty system...the game is evolving, is improving and I think we should move with it rather than lag behind crying everytime things get difficult: everyone IS asking for difficult btw.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 12:36 PM
You mean you can't just run through traps anymore?..You know, zerg ahead, get hit by fire, igonre it, pull the lever, get the item, whatever, and then go back through the traps?...You mean you actually have to have some sort of strategy, like a friend to heal you constantly, or you might have to stop refresh your fire prot, heal yourself, you know...take some time to get through it?...OMG...that's tragic!

Have you ever even Run the Scoundrels Run or The Pit?

It is a Requirement of the quest to Run though the Fire in Scoundrels Run...

It Is a Requirement of the quest to stand in the middle of lightning traps WHILE pulling levers in the Pit... (Like 30-40 of em)

We;re not taking about the Zerging 50 HP Barbarians here (Even though theyt will still die) W're talking about Builds that are DESIGNED to do these thing that no longer can.... a well build evasion rogue at level 7-8 SHOULD be able to do the Pits lighnng switches on Eite.... RIght now, I doubt anyone short of a Capped Improved Evasion build will be able to successfully pull that off.... THis is not an "Elite" Optional part of the Pit.... The Object of the room is to simply Pull Levers.....

This is not only a serious issue for Zergers.. Its a serious issue for Rogues even..... Evasion Means Nothng, and witht he Increased Damage, Improved evasion has been gimped as well.....

Please go do some of these quests and test them for yourself before talking trash. Cause thats all your doing.

Aladon
02-01-2008, 12:40 PM
Those were already some of the toughest traps this side of STK if you're at level. Now they're harder? :eek:

Yes. I was able to do the fire corridor on elite w/ my 300 hp 15th level Dorf ranger w/ 30 pt resists, 120 pt prots, evasion and stopping to heal in the safe spots, barely. A level 9 would have a lot fewer hp's, 20 resists and lower prots. There's no recourse to imp. evasion cause it's lvl 10 (and rogues have far fewer hps, offsetting the benefit). A tank w/ more HP's wouldn't have evasion and wouldn't be able to recast prots as he went. And the corridor is too long for clerics to heal the full distance.

I'm not saying it's completely impossible (tho it might be). But it just doesnt seem to me that a mid-level blah quest in 3 Barrel cove should suddenly become one of the toughest in the game. Like Stealthy Repo, it'll just become a throw away quest to be run once for favor at level cap. Unfortunately, The Pit is a more integral part of many peoples XP progression and favor strategy. If that one is rendered impossible too, that'll be a big loss. And it ain't like The Pit was considered an easy quest to begin with.

All I'm asking is that the level design team take a look at these non-disableable traps (like the ones mentioned in Scoundrel's Run and The Pit) to see whether they're happy with the difficulty or whether the new hyper-difficulty of un-diasbleable traps is an unintended consequence of the general trap damage increase.

Best,

Aladon

Razvan
02-01-2008, 12:54 PM
THis is not an "Elite" Optional part of the Pit.... .


But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 01:10 PM
But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

it should be Optional.... Not Immpossible without Gimping your rogue.

rimble
02-01-2008, 01:16 PM
But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

Some quests will become pointless to do on Elite at appropriate levels. Certain quests, and maybe Scoundrel's Run, will just be relegated to no-XP Favor runs to do once you're capped. Certain quests scale really poorly. Historically, quests that have alot of casters become much more difficult on Hard or Elite than other quests, but the quest level still only goes up one level on Hard, and two on Elite. The same thing will happen with quests with these traps in them. Maybe certain quests need to be flagged to scale to higher levels...don't change anything else, but Scoundrel's Run (8th Level on Normal?) would become 10th Level on Hard, and 12th Level on Elite. At least at that point you can still get some XP out of it once you've reached a level where you have a chance of completing it. Again, without that, it just becomes a capped character Favor run.

I'm sure glad I got my 1750 Favor already. They keep talking about 'easing the new player experience', but things don't seem to be panning out that way.

Albel
02-01-2008, 01:28 PM
Now I'm interested, I've got to run the pit tonight on my ranger and see if I can still solo it...

Alavatar
02-01-2008, 01:34 PM
Now I'm interested, I've got to run the pit tonight on my ranger and see if I can still solo it...

You could solo it on elite? Because that's what they're talking about. Normal should be unaffected, but elite is now nearly impossible. So they say.

Razvan
02-01-2008, 02:04 PM
But the idea is that the game should offer something for everyone:

For casual players it has normal mode and hard mode...normal anyone can do, right...and then you get to do hard and test yourself

Elite is like a driving a Viper...it's out there, everyone knows about it...BUT NOT EVERYONE GETS TO DRIVE IT!...Level 9 quest on elite should be nearly impossible for a level 9 char to do...that's why the power gamers will try and most likely do it at level 9, on elite, and the rest of the players will try it later, and do it for favor only.

I mean, just the word "elite" should inspire uberness (for lack of a better word), and you finishing a lev 9 quest on elite, with a party of lev 9 chars or even lower should be an acomplishment, not a daily routine.

As I said, they upped the actual difficulty of these quests too late on hard and elite, but then again I think they did it because at first they knew that making elite mode very hard to acomplish for a lot of players wouldn't be a good idea due to limited content at launch and in the following months.

MysticRhythms
02-01-2008, 02:04 PM
Does anynoe have a combat log that tells what the actual fire/electricity damage was and what the save was?

To me it seems like 80 some hit points for a 9th level rogue plus 20-point resists plus 60 points of protection from a potion plus some healing potions and fire potion refills should be suficent. That's 140 points of damage that the trap would have to do to take the charcter out. A 9th level Ranger should have Evasion and his own protections/resists and almost 20 more hit points than the rogue.

Is it really that much? And isn't there a spot in the fire tunnel at the halfway point that's "safe?"

I'm just curious what the actual damage is.

Yukiko
02-01-2008, 02:07 PM
2 splashes of rogue will no longer a trap smith make :D

MysticRhythms
02-01-2008, 02:08 PM
2 splashes of rogue will no longer a trap smith make :D

Rogue 2 still gives Evasion which is the key ability necessary for traps such as these.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 02:13 PM
Was there a lot of people saying Elite was Too Easy? I consider myself a power gamer for the most part... Elite High level Quests definatly tested all my Characters abilities..... Could I get though them without Dying.. Usualy.... Were some a Joke? Yes....

We're taking about a CONFIRMED DC of 30 in a LEVEL ONE quest here foks....

What level do you have to be to hit a 30 Save? Most rogues couldnt even think about Rolling the save until l4 or 5.. and makign the save on a regular basis? 10+ I would guess.....

Like I said, I have no problem with the Damage..... Do as much damage as ya lik.. Makeit insta-death for a 600hp Barbarian..... IF they fail their save.....

I might not even have a problem with the Save DC if you could still get XP for it when the quest was doable.....

If the DCs dont get adjusted back down, Make the Quest +2 Level for Hard and +4 Level for Elite.... THis will rebalance the XP and loot for the significantly higher challenge.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 02:15 PM
Rogue 2 still gives Evasion which is the key ability necessary for traps such as these.

In order for Evasion to do anything, You must make your Save.... Improved Evasion is the Critcal Ability now for traps.

rimble
02-01-2008, 02:17 PM
In order for Evasion to do anything, You must make your Save.... Improved Evasion is the Critcal Ability now for traps.

Which still doesn't help at all with the ones you need to stand in...:(

Stonebread
02-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Like Stealthy Repo, it'll just become a throw away quest to be run once for favor at level cap.

Actually, with many builds, Stealthy Repro is easy to zerg for xp and favor. Solo even. You need good AC, resists and some sort of speed boost. (I recently discovered this)

Kerr
02-01-2008, 02:37 PM
But the idea is that the game should offer something for everyone:

For casual players it has normal mode and hard mode...normal anyone can do, right...and then you get to do hard and test yourself


I don't have a problem with making Elite more difficult, but when 2nd Tier faction rewards require you to do Elite content, it shouldn't be darn near impossible to do on Elite.

MysticRhythms
02-01-2008, 02:40 PM
In order for Evasion to do anything, You must make your Save.... Improved Evasion is the Critcal Ability now for traps.

That's why I asked what the actual numbers were.

DC 30 seems excessive for level 1.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 02:42 PM
That's why I asked what the actual numbers were.

DC 30 seems excessive for level 1.

The Image Hosting service seems to have lost my Picture for some reason... I'll repost it tonight when I get hime....

L14 Rogue Build... 18+4 Improved Trap Sense Save +7 FAIL! +8 SAVE! Sewer Rescue. Level 1 Harbor Quest.

sirgog
02-01-2008, 02:43 PM
I'm a fan of making traps more mean, but making un-disable-able traps tougher is IMO downright stupid.

Imagine the force traps in Litany of the Dead :-(


Traps that cannot be disabled but must be run through are stupid anyway, making them cause party wipes is really really bad.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm a fan of making traps more mean, but making un-disable-able traps tougher is IMO downright stupid.

Imagine the force traps in Litany of the Dead :-(


Traps that cannot be disabled but must be run through are stupid anyway, making them cause party wipes is really really bad.

Ouch.. Good one.. Course, Ihave the "Tactic" for that one figured out....

Let a UMDer/Cleric go First and get taken out by the first trap..
Throw em a Res so they can run through the rest dead and take the res at the bottom.
Raise Others as they come to the end.. Dead.....

Sweet "Tactic" eh?

rimble
02-01-2008, 02:50 PM
Sweet "Tactic" eh?

Very heroic. I always wondered why The Fellowship of the Ring didn't just die/res their way through Moria.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 02:52 PM
Very heroic. I always wondered why The Fellowship of the Ring didn't just die/res their way through Moria.

Hey, with no more XP Debt and nothingbut questions to answer before the Shrine, seems like the way to go. Of course, We'll all get naked first.....

MrCow
02-01-2008, 02:52 PM
The Pit on Elite is still quite soloable without take a hit due to the lightning traps (or other traps). You just have to position yourself in the middle of the lightning and pull the levers from a small distance away.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-01-2008, 03:30 PM
But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

It is not optional. You need to do elite quests to get favor, and some of the favor is key to success, that makes it non optional. Perhaps elite should have been optional, but thats not how Turbine in its wisdom designed things.

MysticTheurge
02-01-2008, 03:30 PM
I'm a fan of making traps more mean, but making un-disable-able traps tougher is IMO downright stupid.

This is kind of the point that a lot of you seem to be missing.

I don't think anyone's complaining about traps being harder in places where you can turn them off. But traps that are designed to be run through were bad enough as they were. Making them harder is kind of ridiculous.

Angelus_dead
02-01-2008, 03:42 PM
I don't think anyone's complaining about traps being harder in places where you can turn them off.
Very many people are complaining exactly that.

MysticTheurge
02-01-2008, 03:48 PM
Very many people are complaining exactly that.

Ah, well, perhaps I should've said "in this thread."

MysticRhythms
02-01-2008, 04:10 PM
If things like the Scoundrel's Run fire trap have DCs in the high 30s and/or do more than 140 damage on a failed save, then they either need to be fixed or the quest level should go up (along with XP and rewards)

muffinlad
02-01-2008, 04:34 PM
Very heroic. I always wondered why The Fellowship of the Ring didn't just die/res their way through Moria.

As you may recall....one of them did.

Took him a while, and he got a power upgrade for it too....


muffindalf

PhoenixRajoNight
02-01-2008, 04:44 PM
But the idea is that the game should offer something for everyone:

For casual players it has normal mode and hard mode...normal anyone can do, right...and then you get to do hard and test yourself

Elite is like a driving a Viper...it's out there, everyone knows about it...BUT NOT EVERYONE GETS TO DRIVE IT!...Level 9 quest on elite should be nearly impossible for a level 9 char to do...that's why the power gamers will try and most likely do it at level 9, on elite, and the rest of the players will try it later, and do it for favor only.

I mean, just the word "elite" should inspire uberness (for lack of a better word), and you finishing a lev 9 quest on elite, with a party of lev 9 chars or even lower should be an acomplishment, not a daily routine.

As I said, they upped the actual difficulty of these quests too late on hard and elite, but then again I think they did it because at first they knew that making elite mode very hard to acomplish for a lot of players wouldn't be a good idea due to limited content at launch and in the following months.

Yeah they made the biggest mistake naming the hardest lvl ELITE in the gaming world because it give peeps like you big heads and reason to bash other peeps for not liking something from the game. Theres no avoiding these traps, not to mention the damn force traps in the pit which btw theres no resistance to. Dunno if shield helps against the force trap but I think its a self only spell anyways.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-01-2008, 04:47 PM
The Pit on Elite is still quite soloable without take a hit due to the lightning traps (or other traps). You just have to position yourself in the middle of the lightning and pull the levers from a small distance away.

Soloable, How you do the 3rd furnace solo?

Kerr
02-01-2008, 05:09 PM
Soloable, How you do the 3rd furnace solo?

:eek:

Kerr
02-01-2008, 05:11 PM
Dunno if shield helps against the force trap but I think its a self only spell anyways.

Shield protects against Magic Missiles which are force effects, but force traps go through Shield like chilli through a baby's digestive system.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 05:16 PM
:eek:

Not Really..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv1juK6v5hU

DemonMage
02-01-2008, 05:23 PM
Soloable, How you do the 3rd furnace solo?

Jump spell at +30 is enough to easily jump through it all solo. Two places you need to hit switches and quickly stand on the pipes.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-01-2008, 05:37 PM
Watched video, yeah thats kewl, atleast I got something from being on the forums all day, all tho I havent really built a caster yet, but now I know I could do it solo on a caster.

DemonMage
02-01-2008, 05:40 PM
House P jump buff provides +30, and you can get resists, though you may have trouble doing it in the span of 30 minutes, you could take the recall penalty to get House P rebuffs. Or get the 20 resist potions from The Twelve. Obviously easier if you can self cast resists and jump, but certainly doable without being a caster.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-01-2008, 05:46 PM
House P jump buff provides +30, and you can get resists, though you may have trouble doing it in the span of 30 minutes, you could take the recall penalty to get House P rebuffs. Or get the 20 resist potions from The Twelve. Obviously easier if you can self cast resists and jump, but certainly doable without being a caster.

I can buy resist 20 pots now? thats fricken awesome, wow 2 good tidbits withing 10 mins, thats fricken awesome, or as we say in boston WICKED ****A. Anything else? C'mon you know you got more.

Cedrica-the-Bard
02-01-2008, 05:47 PM
(Also posted in Rogue forum)
My rogue is Human 12 Rogue/3 Pally

Stats:

Str 16
Dex 28
Con 20
Int 22
Wis 10
Cha 22

I took all 4 trap save AP and the Way of the Acrobat enhancement. I also have the Human Versatility IV (includes Saves boost AND skills boost for +5 each. cheaper for me).

I have a Resistance 4 cloak and the GH belt.

Went into HIPS elite and stood in that trap to test. My first test was with ONLY Greater Heroism as a buff. I saved on a 3 and failed on a 2 and the number in brackets was +43. I took 84 points of damage. Is that a DC of 45 for that trap?

Then I clicked the 3 boost buffs (and thank GOD the three aren't on the same timer!): Improved Uncanny Dodge, Human Saves Boost and Acrobat Boost. This time when I stood in the traps it had +56 in brackets, so I gained 13 to my Reflex save for 20 seconds with those boosts.

I only failed on a 1.

But for those builds with just Evasion (Rangers and 2 Rogue splashes), the damage would have been double what I took because I have Improved Evasion. That's 168 points of damage!!! NASTY!!! I thought the 84 hurt and was thanking my lucky stars I have 251 HP and 2 LOH available to me.

The only thing that confused me was that with GH, on my Stats screen it said my Reflex save was 35. So I thought it would be 39 in a trap due to those trap AP's, but it said 43 in the combat log. Where did that extra 4 come from???

Hope this is helpful.

DemonMage
02-01-2008, 05:52 PM
I can buy resist 20 pots now? thats fricken awesome, wow 2 good tidbits withing 10 mins, thats fricken awesome, or as we say in boston WICKED ****A. Anything else? C'mon you know you got more.

Stoneskin and Repair Critical wands on the same vendor as the 20 resist potions =-p May not help you, depending on your UMD (or race for the latter), but handy to know!

KoboldKiller
02-01-2008, 05:56 PM
Personally, I don't think any trap should be set without you being able to disable it. I know it's not PnP but I don't recall ever running a quest that had traps you couldn't disable, of course I could be wrong. But the point being, if you create a trap that cannot be disabled and you must pass through it to continue the quest it should not be impossible to go through. Take you to the brink maybe kill you every time no. And no elite is not optional as Favor plays a major component in this game for rewards.

Impaqt
02-01-2008, 05:57 PM
(Also posted in Rogue forum)
My rogue is Human 12 Rogue/3 Pally


Went into HIPS elite and stood in that trap to test. My first test was with ONLY Greater Heroism as a buff. I saved on a 3 and failed on a 2 and the number in brackets was +43. I took 84 points of damage. Is that a DC of 45 for that trap?
.

46 ACtually, But we get the idea... ANd this was today?

That would seem to indicate to me that the low level elite quests are scaling WAY too high if L1 is a 30 dave and L10 is a 46 save....

PhoenixRajoNight
02-01-2008, 06:06 PM
46 ACtually, But we get the idea... ANd this was today?

That would seem to indicate to me that the low level elite quests are scaling WAY too high if L1 is a 30 dave and L10 is a 46 save....

Well that would mean if we take variables that hips is 12 on elite so 46/12 = about 4 so a lvl 16 dung on elite at 18 would be dc 66-70

Ron
02-01-2008, 06:59 PM
Watched video, yeah thats kewl, atleast I got something from being on the forums all day, all tho I havent really built a caster yet, but now I know I could do it solo on a caster.

You don't need to be a caster to solo the pit. All you need are featherfall boots (or the equivelent), which should be no problem by the time you are able to survive in there alone :) No need for high jump skill either. JJ has a video of it on u-tube somewhere, and I've done it myself as well (following what he did).

ViVid7th
02-01-2008, 07:29 PM
Well that would mean if we take variables that hips is 12 on elite so 46/12 = about 4 so a lvl 16 dung on elite at 18 would be dc 66-70

You're failing at a few points here. DC checks are scaled at (Average Bonus Required +11), this means that they are scaled so that a character of the intended build with the proper saves for the trap will have a 50% chance of success or failure. High save characters will have a higher chance at success, lower save characters have a lower chance at success.

(Note: Greater Dispell magic is the prefect example of this. The DC for it is the caster level of the opposing caster +11. You get your caster level upto 20+1d20 to meet that number)

This means that a level 1 quest, turned elite (level 3) has a scaling per level of 6.333~ (30-11, then divide by 3). HiPS on elite has a per level scaling of 2.91666~, or 3 (46-11, divide by 12). So we can't go by level here.

Assuming that an elite quest is designed to be easily doable for characters equal to the modified level times 2, a level 6 pure class rogue will require a base save of 19-20 before rolls for the level 1 elite quest. Assuming a base dex 20, +2 from class enhancements, +1 from racial enhancements, +1 from levels, +1 tome, +2 item, +4 from a spell, we sit on a 31, or a +10 dex mod. Add in a +2 from trap sense, +2 from enhancements, +2 from resist item, and +4 from uncanny Dodge with a +5 ref save, total mod of 25. If the rogue sees it coming and preps for it, with max items at level 6 they will still have a 20% chance at failure. Without Uncanny Dodge running, they have a 40% chance of failure, requiring a roll of 9. This is a HIGH SAVE character, not average at twice the modified loot level.

Scaling for this quest to elite is way too high.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-01-2008, 07:40 PM
You're failing at a few points here. DC checks are scaled at (Average Bonus Required +11), this means that they are scaled so that a character of the intended build with the proper saves for the trap will have a 50% chance of success or failure. High save characters will have a higher chance at success, lower save characters have a lower chance at success.

(Note: Greater Dispell magic is the prefect example of this. The DC for it is the caster level of the opposing caster +11. You get your caster level upto 20+1d20 to meet that number)

This means that a level 1 quest, turned elite (level 3) has a scaling per level of 6.333~ (30-11, then divide by 3). HiPS on elite has a per level scaling of 2.91666~, or 3 (46-11, divide by 12). So we can't go by level here.

Assuming that an elite quest is designed to be easily doable for characters equal to the modified level times 2, a level 6 pure class rogue will require a base save of 19-20 before rolls for the level 1 elite quest. Assuming a base dex 20, +2 from class enhancements, +1 from racial enhancements, +1 from levels, +1 tome, +2 item, +4 from a spell, we sit on a 31, or a +10 dex mod. Add in a +2 from trap sense, +2 from enhancements, +2 from resist item, and +4 from uncanny Dodge with a +5 ref save, total mod of 25. If the rogue sees it coming and preps for it, with max items at level 6 they will still have a 20% chance at failure. Without Uncanny Dodge running, they have a 40% chance of failure, requiring a roll of 9. This is a HIGH SAVE character, not average at twice the modified loot level.

Scaling for this quest to elite is way too high.


Honestly made the post without really knowing what I was talking about, lol. I only have one rogue, well srry tech hes a batman build, and hes sitting on a burner, because I didnt take con on him and am sufferign for doing so, and will have to rm him.

ViVid7th
02-01-2008, 07:48 PM
Heh, no worries. No matter the character, con needs to be up though. Goodluck with him the second time around.

MrWizard
02-01-2008, 08:01 PM
i was doing some stuff on elit eiwht my 11 level rogue today.

hips, cult, etc.

traps i tested (meaning i ran into them to see)...

well... the times I did not save and took half damage.. those were in the 75 to 85 damage range. Means a person who gets hit with no damage reduction will get 150 to 170 damage.

dart trap in HIPS was 24 points a tick.

party members defintely hurt.

traps that cannot be disabled will be a party wipe or mostly wipe if they have to run through them. The damage I took was only from one hit of a spike..just one.


if you got hit twice running through, probably 300 points damage. dead.

Hakushi
02-01-2008, 08:42 PM
Some people seems to not entirely understand what elite mode is. Elite mode and elite players are two different things, elite mode is not supposed to be a stupidly hard almost impossible mode, it's 2 lvl higher than the normal quest. Does 2 lvls make a quest near-impossible?

Lorien_the_First_One
02-01-2008, 11:57 PM
Some people seems to not entirely understand what elite mode is. Elite mode and elite players are two different things, elite mode is not supposed to be a stupidly hard almost impossible mode, it's 2 lvl higher than the normal quest. Does 2 lvls make a quest near-impossible?

Actually the GMs of this game do not seem to understand that rule they themselves set. There is no way that Elite quests are 2 levels higher, they are MUCH higher than that. A L3 quest on elite is generally far far harder than a L5 a norm.

Vormaerin
02-02-2008, 02:54 AM
The problem....even with the unavoidable traps.... is not the increased damage. It is the increased save DC. That needs to be fixed. A character with a good reflex save for their level should be able to do these traps with proper preparation. Force traps the entire party has to pass through are moronic in general, since there is nothing you can do but take it, really. But the pit and scoundrel's run are fine... as long as the DC is at a rational level.

Shade
02-02-2008, 03:50 AM
Scoundrels run I did years back on elite without fire protect, without any rare equipment, and just the standard 20 point fire resist, was right at the level of the quest and found the fire traps to be a joke for elite. They do some damage sure, but there are plenty of safe area to stop in and drink some potions to heal up, and I could run thru them and get the piece in about 7 seconds anyways.
If they do some real damage now, thats great. Elite is meant for elite players, and elite players thought it was too easy before.

Same for the pit, like Mrcow mentioned you can do the quest 100% and get hit by zero traps. You can even naviate the force traps with careful timing and jumps and never get hit.

I can't think of any traps that you absolutely must stand in to complete an objective. Sure some you need to run thru, but thats never a problem when your a well prepared elite player..

For normal nothing has changed, so if you having trouble.. Do normal.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 03:58 AM
Scoundrels run I did years back on elite without fire protect, without any rare equipment, and just the standard 20 point fire resist, was right at the level of the quest and found the fire traps to be a joke for elite. They do some damage sure, but there are plenty of safe area to stop in and drink some potions to heal up, and I could run thru them and get the piece in about 7 seconds anyways.
If they do some real damage now, thats great. Elite is meant for elite players, and elite players thought it was too easy before.

Same for the pit, like Mrcow mentioned you can do the quest 100% and get hit by zero traps. You can even naviate the force traps with careful timing and jumps and never get hit.

I can't think of any traps that you absolutely must stand in to complete an objective. Sure some you need to run thru, but thats never a problem when your a well prepared elite player..

For normal nothing has changed, so if you having trouble.. Do normal.

Ugh.... whole elitist group thing....nvm its just not worth it, you think 20 fire resist is nothing? before the new mod I remember running scoundrels run just last week on hard with 20 fire resist, and getting hit for 20+ fire damage each hit, and theres no safe spots on the run down, because between each flame jet are bursting furnaces, I think your memory of the run is very much broken or it has alrdy changed before. I dont even wanna know the damage its gonna do now on hard or even elite.

GlassCannon
02-02-2008, 04:20 AM
Soloable, How you do the 3rd furnace solo?

Creatively. Want me to show you sometime?

GlassCannon
02-02-2008, 04:25 AM
Scoundrels run I did years back on elite without fire protect, without any rare equipment, and just the standard 20 point fire resist, was right at the level of the quest and found the fire traps to be a joke for elite. They do some damage sure, but there are plenty of safe area to stop in and drink some potions to heal up, and I could run thru them and get the piece in about 7 seconds anyways.
If they do some real damage now, thats great. Elite is meant for elite players, and elite players thought it was too easy before.

Same for the pit, like Mrcow mentioned you can do the quest 100% and get hit by zero traps. You can even naviate the force traps with careful timing and jumps and never get hit.

I can't think of any traps that you absolutely must stand in to complete an objective. Sure some you need to run thru, but thats never a problem when your a well prepared elite player..

For normal nothing has changed, so if you having trouble.. Do normal.

You, like many others, MISSED THE POINT and are simply flinging opinion. Stop and read.

ViVid7th
02-02-2008, 04:30 AM
The Pit's force traps are still a joke, and I don't have a problem with the damage of ANY traps being ampped. The problem is with these stupidly high Ref saves that are a serious threat to anyone except the Best of the Best Level Capped Ref Save Rogues.

Elite should be elite. It's not 2 levels higher, it's another stage of scaling. But a level 7 quest before elite shouldn't require you to be a level 16 trap dodger in raid gear just to survive a single unavoidable trap. Tone down the Ref saves, and tone down the damage of traps that can't be disabled. Double Damage on Elite is good, Doubling the DC checks is a bad idea.

Mad_Bombardier
02-02-2008, 09:49 AM
Soloable, How you do the 3rd furnace solo?You jump on the pipes and look for shortcuts. Search for posts by jjflanigan (I think). He did a video once upon a time.

Zenako
02-02-2008, 10:00 AM
Want to just chime in on this thread too.

The increase in damage is workable. The increase in Save DC's seems out of balance.

As for the Scoundels Run, in most groups if I had my Ranger along, he would just dash down the hallway, avoid 90% of the fire and grab the piece. There is a valve near the piece that opens the lower gate and gives you a much shorter run out along the bottom. Since there are no fights down there, no need to send anyone who does not have evasion down that firey tunnel.

Aladon
02-02-2008, 10:07 AM
You, like many others, MISSED THE POINT and are simply flinging opinion. Stop and read.

Err, which part of your own posts exactly do you consider to be not opinions?

I really wish the nay sayers would run these quests on elite w/ a level appropriate party and then tell us what they think. I am genuinely curious to see the results.

Aladon

PhoenixRajoNight
02-02-2008, 10:14 AM
Err, which part of your own posts exactly do you consider to be not opinions?

I really wish the nay sayers would run these quests on elite w/ a level appropriate party and then tell us what they think. I am genuinely curious to see the results.

Aladon

Actually alot of the nay sayers in the thread have done the quests and have come as nay sayers because of such. However alot of the peeps not nay saying and saying its no biggie have not done them, and have mmade that clear in what they have posted.

redoubt
02-02-2008, 12:00 PM
With some of my early characters I capped and went back and did favor later... I've since decided I prefer getting the favor along the way.

With my latest creation (a warchanter TWF bard) I've been running everything pretty close to level equivalent. (By that I mean I'll run a level 8 quest on elite at level 9-11).

Prior to the change: When going through the fire trap to get the piece of the turtle our dex based ranger had: 20pt house P resist and a 60pt fire protect on, and evasion. He had never done it before and made it to the bottom with a sliver of health left to grab the piece and then he died. Two others of us died trying to get him out. Finally a fourth guy made it down to get the piece out. Every one of these characters were either drow or 32 point builds played by competent players. I think that the difficulty of that trap even before mod 6 might have been a little too high.

Anyway... as many others have said

1. scale the damage of traps you can disable.
2. DO NOT raise the save DCs. When a capped ranger/rogue with 34 dex, +4 resist, +1 luck is only making half the electric save in VON5 elite, the DCs are high enough.
3. DO NOT raise the damage of the raps you cannot disable.

Thanks.

Aladon
02-02-2008, 02:11 PM
Actually alot of the nay sayers in the thread have done the quests and have come as nay sayers because of such. However alot of the peeps not nay saying and saying its no biggie have not done them, and have mmade that clear in what they have posted.

Not being contentious, but curious: who other than me has run Scoundrel's run on Elite since mod 6 and who has run The Pit on Elite since Mod 6?

Aladon

baddax
02-02-2008, 03:19 PM
Was running Chains of Flames on elite the other night without a rogue with a group of 15-16 experienced players and had a horrible time getting passed the traps. I have an evasion build so i made it, fully buffed but the cleric and a wizzie did not. So being the Hero that i am volunteered to go back for their stones and died myself. now we have 1/2 the party dead including the cleric, with no way to raise or get our stones. So we recalled and tried again but did not have any further success, it was late so we called it quits. By the way my Evasion build saved on a 46 for the fire trap/ blade traps but failed on a 45 fyi witch means you need at least a 25 reflex to save on a 20! and with buffs still was taking 150-200 hp dmg on a failed save, witch i could survive 1 hit from but the squishy cleric/wizzie types im not so sure. So i think all you rogues just got alot more valuable out their! oh and when they say elite, they mean elite ie. have your S!@# tight! Which is the way i think it should be elite means ELITE. Just had to learn the hard way myself. 20k repair bill to boot not so nice )-:. +
ps. that improved evasion is also looking alot better as a feat!

redoubt
02-02-2008, 04:47 PM
Elite is elite... sure... but still...

The dex/reflex based char (i.e. a rogue or a ranger with 30+ dex) should be able to save against the traps on rolls under 10. (5-7 maybe) in any given quest of equal level. Other characters are gonna have to roll higher, 10+ obviously, but low teens probably about right, unless they have no dex or high penalties etc. (I'm basing partly on what I've read on the forums and party on personal opinion to get those numbers.)

So assuming a level 10 quest on normal a level ten ranger or rogue should be able to save against the traps 75% of the time. A really good one might save 95% of the time.

A level 10 quest on hard (thus level 11 quest) the same should be said of a level 11 reflex type character.

A level 10 quest on elite (thus level 12 quest) the same should be said of a level 12 dex/reflex character. I might even go so far as to say elite adds more like 2.5-3 levels to the quest and say that a level 12 character might have a harder time, but by level 13 that same character should be able to run the level 10 on elite and be saving 75% of the time or more.

What is the rationale for having any trap save DC at a level where the appropriate level rogue can't make the save without rolling a 20? :confused: This sounds like what is happening. I'm not asking for sweeping changes, just that the save DCs be looked at make sure that they are correct.

The second thing I would like to hear is about the quest level versus group level. It was my understanding that the quests were based on what the average group of 4 (yes, four) adventures of that level could realistically complete. So how do the devs desribe hard and elite? Hard: an average group of 4 adventures 1 level higher than the quest could realistically complete??? Elite: A group of 4... you get the idea.

Or is it more like:

Hard a group of 6 good players 1 level higher than the quest (i.e. level 5 toons in a level 4 quest on hard) can complete.
Elite a group of 6 powergamers 6 levels higher than the quest with at least 5 pieces of raid loot, 2 +3 tomes, 2 +2 tomes, 2 +1 tomes, +6 to all stats and +5 bursting of PG weapons can complete. (Yes this is sarcasm and overkill. I used it to point out just how varied our opinioins of what elite should be are. I'd just like to know what the devs think "elite" quests are and who should be able to complete them in their opinion.)

Thanks for listening!! :D

Vormaerin
02-02-2008, 04:53 PM
Not being contentious, but curious: who other than me has run Scoundrel's run on Elite since mod 6 and who has run The Pit on Elite since Mod 6?

Aladon

Dunno about those questions, but Pheonix was actually responding to Shade and misreading your post as supporting Shade. I, too, am curious if any of these "elite is for the elite" players have run these quests with the new mid 40s DCs on the saves and the increased damage.

MrCow
02-02-2008, 04:58 PM
Not being contentious, but curious: who other than me has run Scoundrel's run on Elite since mod 6 and who has run The Pit on Elite since Mod 6?

I ran The Pit on Elite with the increased damage and trap DCs on Risia when these changes were implemented. I didn't have a single death and I did it alone (but the one time I hit the electric trap it did sting for 100ish damage). The traps are all completely avoidable if you know where to stand. I'll do Scoundrel's Run to see how bad it is.

Edit: I can see exactly why people are complaining about Scoundrel's Run now. As you run down the firey hallway of doom there very few spots that are actually safe to sit a moment and heal back up. Also, there are a decently high amount of spots where you are forced to make a reflex save because of how the exploding furnaces work. For the life of me, I couldn't open the valve either because the exploding furnaces keep going off over and over right over it, so there is no shortcut out of the room unless you make two or more evasion saves in a row. I had enough trouble getting to the bottom of the room doing quickened reconstructions on myself... the damage I take going down is nearly on par with me running down the Twilight Forge laser hallways (on normal).

Blackwatch
02-02-2008, 07:07 PM
But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

You keep saying elite is elite... and I understand your logic... however flawed or skewed it might be.

Here's the question for you.

Should the requirements to complete this quest on elite, require you to be of a level that will receive negligible or no benefits, rewards, exp, etc. from it other than favor?

If so, your point is entirely valid and indisputable.

If that is NOT your opinion, then frankly, you're talking about things beyond your scope.

Thanks.
BW

Chelsa
02-02-2008, 08:20 PM
I completely disagree with the arguments here.

Elite should mean elite and that means both players and experience, not sorta elite, or elite as long as I can avoid everything without any specialized builds. Before the change people ignored all traps and just ran around as if they didn't exists. For the most part my trap monkey was just along for the ride because nobody cared. It was painful to level her up because of this.

The other thing that should also be important is team play and that may mean healing the rogue while they disable the trap, getting a bard to increase skills or moving more slowly to take advantage of terrain.

Well built characters should also be part of the equation. There should be disadvantages to min/maxing, or never taking feats and skills to increase survivability. From my experience and there is nothing wrong with it, people tend to be built purely for DPS, so having a few quests where a build is weak adds balance to the game.

I personally love the change, though my cute Wizzy won't like it :D

My only complaint was the devs didn't make the change sooner.

redoubt
02-02-2008, 11:09 PM
I completely disagree with the arguments here.

Elite should mean elite and that means both players and experience, not sorta elite, or elite as long as I can avoid everything without any specialized builds. Before the change people ignored all traps and just ran around as if they didn't exists. For the most part my trap monkey was just along for the ride because nobody cared. It was painful to level her up because of this.

The other thing that should also be important is team play and that may mean healing the rogue while they disable the trap, getting a bard to increase skills or moving more slowly to take advantage of terrain.

Well built characters should also be part of the equation. There should be disadvantages to min/maxing, or never taking feats and skills to increase survivability. From my experience and there is nothing wrong with it, people tend to be built purely for DPS, so having a few quests where a build is weak adds balance to the game.

I personally love the change, though my cute Wizzy won't like it :D

My only complaint was the devs didn't make the change sooner.

Chelsea... I think you're hitting about half of the OP there. Most of us are for increased damage. The thing we are attempting to debate is the reflex save required for the trap itself.

An average rogue should have a GOOD chance at making the save on the trap. A well built rogue should have a very good chance of saving against the trap. A min/max, "I live for traps" rogue should only have trouble on rolls of a "1". Why else build that way???

In case you didn't catch it, I want more stuff to help rogues shine. I am just dismayed by the reports of folks like Impaqt on the extreemely high save DCs in some quests.

Vormaerin
02-02-2008, 11:24 PM
I've seen no objection to the increased damage either. The problem is the huge increase in the saves needed. Can you make a rogue that does anything besides traps that can make DC30 saves for lvl 1 elite quests? Or DC 36 saves for lvl 7 Hard quests like Gwylan's? There are a LOT of quests where the rogue has to run through the trap to get to the trap box and some where the rogue has to make trap saves while disarming it. The increased damage levels means these traps are instakills on failed saves for level appropriate rogues. Or is your lvl 8 rogue so elite it can always make a DC36 save or live through the 150dmg if it doesn't? That's Gwylan's Hard, mind you. Not elite. Its nastier on elite. I wonder what the save DC and damage on those force traps on the bridge in Graymoon are? Or the Shantokor flame room...

There's another thread for traps in general. Read that if you haven't. This one does discuss damage a bit, but only because the traps can't be disarmed. Game play shouldn't come down entirely to twitch ability and memorization of 'safe' spots through trial and error, as seems to be the recommendation for the Pit's lightning traps.

Aladon
02-02-2008, 11:28 PM
I ran The Pit on Elite with the increased damage and trap DCs on Risia when these changes were implemented. I didn't have a single death and I did it alone (but the one time I hit the electric trap it did sting for 100ish damage). The traps are all completely avoidable if you know where to stand.

Good to know. I love The Pit and was worried.

Since the traps have never been a problem before, I never figured out where to stand (other than working from the outside to the inside). Where do you stand to avoid the damage?

Also, it seems like the off lever becomes available before every trap is turned off. Do you know under what conditions the force field goes down?



Edit: I can see exactly why people are complaining about Scoundrel's Run now. As you run down the firey hallway of doom there very few spots that are actually safe to sit a moment and heal back up. Also, there are a decently high amount of spots where you are forced to make a reflex save because of how the exploding furnaces work. For the life of me, I couldn't open the valve either because the exploding furnaces keep going off over and over right over it, so there is no shortcut out of the room unless you make two or more evasion saves in a row. I had enough trouble getting to the bottom of the room doing quickened reconstructions on myself... the damage I take going down is nearly on par with me running down the Twilight Forge laser hallways (on normal).

;)

Aladon

Eldamyr
02-02-2008, 11:32 PM
I think the real issue is DC's overall. Not just on Elite but also on Hard. For example, I was in a group that was running Deleras on Hard. Then we moved to the Necromancer on Hard. There are two poison traps in that quest. I am going to assume the DC to save for those two traps is at least 30. I failed on a 27. Fortuneatly we had a Cleric and I had Lesser Restore wands handy as the strength damage also seemed to be greater than it once was. I am all for every class being able to participate but not like this. Unless you feel like waiting around for a potentially long period of time you can not always get the "ideal" party make up. So if you don't want to wait for an hour or more for a rogue you have to suffer? That just doesn't seem right to me.

MrCow
02-02-2008, 11:45 PM
Since the traps have never been a problem before, I never figured out where to stand (other than working from the outside to the inside). Where do you stand to avoid the damage?

Also, it seems like the off lever becomes available before every trap is turned off. Do you know under what conditions the force field goes down?

If you are trying to do the inner switches without being struck by lightning the trick is to jump into the middle of the area where the lightning fires and then slowly get close enough to the lever until you can flip it.

As for the force field coming down, it goes down after three randomly assigned switches are flipped. (If there is a pattern to what switches they are then this information still eludes me).

PhoenixRajoNight
02-03-2008, 02:38 AM
The correct way to fix a prolem is to do so in stages, not go ok Im going to use super glue, wood glue, crazy glue, model glue, rubber cement and maybe a few more all mixed together to put the wing back on my statue. You start with 1 type of glue, see if it works then if it needs some help use another glue in combo or in place. They shouldve increased the damage, then the dc if it wasnt enough or vice versa. Unfortunately, I think I'm gonna have to chock this one up to lazyness,, because instead of going in and changing the stats/numbers around, I think they just upped the level of the traps, in so increasing damage and dcs together, instead of apart. Sorry turbine not trying to poke you in the ribs here, but I'm prolly correct in that was the way it was done because it was less work and faster to do to work on other stuff. Sometimes its ok to do so, but sometimes it comes out as a bad judgement call. You win some, You lose some.

Vormaerin
02-03-2008, 04:26 AM
You can chalk it up to what ever you want. You still don't know. Do you even know if traps have levels that affect dmg and DC in this code system? But if it makes you happy to insult the dev team, I'm sure they've got thick enough skin to deal with it.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-03-2008, 01:33 PM
You can chalk it up to what ever you want. You still don't know. Do you even know if traps have levels that affect dmg and DC in this code system? But if it makes you happy to insult the dev team, I'm sure they've got thick enough skin to deal with it.

I said most likely what happened was they added some scaling multipliers, and didnt go in and change the traps themselves. And if you actually read the satement, I'm basically saying its a developement mistake that happens. This will happen alot with ne game youll see a quickfix thrown in, instead of a more indepth fix, to be able to move on to the next step, as far as me mentioning laziness right out, I'm sorry but everyone and every company has laziness of some sort. Sometimes you can get away with it and things work and none ar the wiser. When it doesnt work however its different.

Yes I dont word my statements in the nicest way, but neither did my mom when she used to critique my essays/book reports for school. Honestly I dont change the way I state things because its a step thats not on my top priority to change about myself, and it's not my fault everyone takes things so personally. Good example is a group of friends that I had and we all used to cus up a storm, never really said them in a derogitory manner and we'd be strolling along and get tr*lled by someone that cant mind their own business saying "oh thats so inapropriate." Peeps give too much power to words, and if theyd get over it they would stop having as much impact, and peeps would have less stress.

winsom
02-03-2008, 05:55 PM
(Also posted in Rogue forum) My rogue is Human 12 Rogue/3 Pally
The only thing that confused me was that with GH, on my Stats screen it said my Reflex save was 35. So I thought it would be 39 in a trap due to those trap AP's, but it said 43 in the combat log. Where did that extra 4 come from???

Every 3 rogue levels, starting at 3rd, gives is +1 saves bonus vs traps.


Rogue 2 still gives Evasion which is the key ability necessary for traps such as these.

Key ability yes, but not always good enough without the enhanced trap save bonuses that higher level rogues can stack on.

My bard/rogue has 4 rogue levels for better trap survivability. Rogue 3rd is +1 on traps saves. Rogue 4th enhancement gives +2 to traps saves. Uncanny Dodge is another +4 to the Reflex save.

My character only has ~140 hit points and its not easy to add significantly more, or I would have done so. DEX was 22 or 24 and her resist item +3, plus bonuses like haste and greater heroism. Some traps would kill her when she fails 2 or 3 saves too quickly in a row. Improved Evasion would have made all the difference, but my character will never have that. DEX is 26 now and her traps and reflex saves are a few points higher before boosting with Uncanny Dodge. She is much better off than her build was with only 2 rogue levels.

Based on reading about these higher level trap DCs, my build is probably now dead-on-arrival for a lot of HARD traps, and maybe all Elite traps. I can't make DC 40ish saves very often and 1 failed save of over 150 damage will certainly kill her :(

I am in favor of elite being extremely tough, and perhaps nearly impossible for non-improved evasion character to survive the trap. That is elite. Fine. But hard too ? Should hard be killer as well?

Vormaerin
02-03-2008, 09:44 PM
Yes I dont word my statements in the nicest way, but neither did my mom when she used to critique my essays/book reports for school.

Well, not my problem if you don't feel it worth your time to be polite to others. Just don't be surprised when no one gives a rat's behind about what you say and you end up on lots of /ignore lists. Its not like anyone has a reason to care what you think if you show you don't care enough to bother being respectful.

I really love the "I'm just a jerk by nature; it shouldn't bother you" arguments. And, guess what, you are right. It doesn't. Its just one less forum poster's posts to read. Its actually a benefit, really.

/ignore.

Blackwatch
02-04-2008, 12:58 AM
Here's my worry...

Was this done as "rogue love" to make rogues more desirable by other groups?

If so, it has severely screwed up and gone in the wrong direction, from what I can gather...


Now, a rogue is going to have to specialize his build so heavily that it is virtually useless in all other endeavors. ie. All feats and enhancements focused on traps/disarm/evade/reflex save.

In the end, this rogue is (in the eyes of most of their group) going to be following everyone around for 90% doing nothing, just so they can avoid a tiny problem in the middle or end of it all.


Wow, talk about making rogues loved again... SUCCESS!!!

Yup, great design work there.

Makes me wonder about Cabal Elite now... is the reflex save DC now so high that a rogue can only choose whether to search/disarm it but not survive the trap save? or retrain to survive the reflex save, but now not have the skills for the search/disarm?

Anyone tested it yet?

Staedtler
02-04-2008, 01:49 AM
You know that story about a guy who finds a magic item that grants him wishes? It turns out everything he wishes for has a horrible and ironic flaw to it.



I wish rogues got more love

honkuimushi
02-04-2008, 06:30 AM
Here's my worry...



Makes me wonder about Cabal Elite now... is the reflex save DC now so high that a rogue can only choose whether to search/disarm it but not survive the trap save? or retrain to survive the reflex save, but now not have the skills for the search/disarm?

Anyone tested it yet?

Actually, several people mentioned that the Cabal trap does 0 damage, even on a failed save, on hard and elite now.



You know that story about a guy who finds a magic item that grants him wishes? It turns out everything he wishes for has a horrible and ironic flaw to it.

Ah yes, The Monkey's Paw. A classic. but it also goes back to "Be careful what you wish for-- you just might get it."

vainangel
02-04-2008, 06:49 AM
I think this will stop people from taking just a feew lvl's or this and that and really think about all stats.

For some I can see the complaint. You spent weeks and/or months tweaking a gimped build slanted toward STR and CON [sometimes DEX and INT], leaving other stas twisting in the wind making a money with a strong arm and only a few lvl's of any class.

I think the traps I have encountered are harder and deadly. You need a Ranger or Rouge just to see them now. You need to buff just to detect them sometimes. I think this reflects why we have rouges in PnP a bit more. Seems to be diesigned to prevent people from just taking the 4th lVl in Rouge and then splashing on whatever class to min/max your stats as you trade feats and enhacements.

Yeah.

It is just me talking, but I like how it seems the developers are making it harder to create a 'total independant' character.

studentx
02-04-2008, 07:24 AM
I think this will stop people from taking just a feew lvl's or this and that and really think about all stats.

For some I can see the complaint. You spent weeks and/or months tweaking a gimped build slanted toward STR and CON [sometimes DEX and INT], leaving other stas twisting in the wind making a money with a strong arm and only a few lvl's of any class.

I think the traps I have encountered are harder and deadly. You need a Ranger or Rouge just to see them now. You need to buff just to detect them sometimes. I think this reflects why we have rouges in PnP a bit more. Seems to be diesigned to prevent people from just taking the 4th lVl in Rouge and then splashing on whatever class to min/max your stats as you trade feats and enhacements.

Yeah.

It is just me talking, but I like how it seems the developers are making it harder to create a 'total independant' character.

No it doesn't reflect why we have rogues in DnD and Rouges in DDO.

Rogues in DnD can one shot ambush kill trash mobs.
Rogues can bluff their way out of fights.
Pick pockets for useful things like keys.

Rouges are trap monkeys and this change is more deadly for rogues and now forces them to take yet ANOTHER enhancement for traps. Disable Device, way of the mechanic, search, spot, and not improved trap sense and probably a skill boost for those that don't have the top end search/spot/etc great. Remember a rogue doesn't have improved evasion until level 10, that means full damage on a failure which will be more common now with dc 40s and damage in the 75+ range.

Oh and make dead rangers trying to help spot boxes. Rangers needed a bit more gimping. =)

PhoenixRajoNight
02-04-2008, 02:56 PM
Well, not my problem if you don't feel it worth your time to be polite to others. Just don't be surprised when no one gives a rat's behind about what you say and you end up on lots of /ignore lists. Its not like anyone has a reason to care what you think if you show you don't care enough to bother being respectful.

I really love the "I'm just a jerk by nature; it shouldn't bother you" arguments. And, guess what, you are right. It doesn't. Its just one less forum poster's posts to read. Its actually a benefit, really.

/ignore.

Oh, and you word things so pleasantly? Many times, not even in reply to me you have said things in a rather nasty way.

Vormaerin
02-04-2008, 03:15 PM
I think the traps I have encountered are harder and deadly. You need a Ranger or Rouge just to see them now. You need to buff just to detect them sometimes. I think this reflects why we have rouges in PnP a bit more. Seems to be diesigned to prevent people from just taking the 4th lVl in Rouge and then splashing on whatever class to min/max your stats as you trade feats and enhacements.


The DCs on Spot, Search, Disarm have not changed according to the devs and my experience is that that is true. What has changed is the *save* DC if the trap goes off on you. Which is bad, but not disastrous most of the time. It is really bad in the traps that the rogue has to pass through in order to get to the box.

Regarding splashing, you are completely wrong. This change makes multiclassing *more* likely as only halflings or paladin/rogue multis can get the kind of reflex saves that the game is currently calling for on elite. A pure rogue's main advantage would be improved evasion so that they *might* live through the failed DC, as long as they don't get hit two or three times without getting healed.

Dark_Helmet
02-04-2008, 03:28 PM
Actually the GMs of this game do not seem to understand that rule they themselves set. There is no way that Elite quests are 2 levels higher, they are MUCH higher than that. A L3 quest on elite is generally far far harder than a L5 a norm.

Using your words against you: You don't seem to understand what the GMs said.

Basically, it is MUCH harder on elite while the reward level is only 2 levels higher. They did not equate the actual level of the encounters to be only 2 levels higher, just what you get rewarded for.

Beherit_Baphomar
02-04-2008, 03:38 PM
You keep saying elite is elite... and I understand your logic... however flawed or skewed it might be.

Here's the question for you.

Should the requirements to complete this quest on elite, require you to be of a level that will receive negligible or no benefits, rewards, exp, etc. from it other than favor?

If so, your point is entirely valid and indisputable.

If that is NOT your opinion, then frankly, you're talking about things beyond your scope.

Thanks.
BW

I think this is the post that the "Elite means Elite" crowd should pay attention to.

Elite should be elite, absolutely agree. But an elite level 1 quest should mean its doable by a group of Elite level 1 people. Or a group of level 3 characters. Not a group of level 10 characters.

redoubt
02-04-2008, 04:00 PM
I think this is the post that the "Elite means Elite" crowd should pay attention to.

Elite should be elite, absolutely agree. But an elite level 1 quest should mean its doable by a group of Elite level 1 people. Or a group of level 3 characters. Not a group of level 10 characters.

Agreed. A group of 4 characters of the same level as the stated level of the quest should be able to complete. Notice I did not say it should be easy, just that they should be able to complete it. If you want to say that "hard" is +2 levels and elite is +4 levels, fine. They you would expect to use level 5 characters on a level 1 quest set to elite. But as it is now, a level 1 elite quest is level 3. Level three characters should be able to compelete it as a group.

On the topic of saves and splash rogues. I don't see why you need to be a splash rogue to get enough reflex save (or why only pure rogues should have enough reflex save). Rangers actually get a better base save than rogues do... /shrug.

A level 14 pure rogue gets 9 and a 1 rogue/13 ranger gets 10.

So start with the base reflex save of 10 from the ranger rogue:
10
12 -- 34 dex
4 -- item (could be higher but this should be resonable)
2 -- luck (throughing in a raid item here, or drop this to 1 and wear a +5 resistance item.)
1 -- trap sense (more if pure rogue)
4 -- greater heroism
----
33 reflex save on a level 14 character, with decent gear.

If a character like this cannot make MOST of the saves against a trap (quest level 14 or lower), my opinion says, the system is broken.

vainangel
02-04-2008, 05:03 PM
not sure the language used is the kindest....

I do see the points.
I would have to defend that developing SPOT/SEARCH for a ranger is not gimping. Unless you built a ranger with a low INT, like 8....

Vormaerin
02-04-2008, 08:38 PM
33 reflex save on a level 14 character, with decent gear.

If a character like this cannot make MOST of the saves against a trap (quest level 14 or lower), my opinion says, the system is broken.

The save on the goodblades elite blade trap is 30. The save on the Gwylan's fire trap on HARD is 36. The high level elite saves are apparently mid to high 40s.

Your guy doesn't cut it. Put in some pally, be a halfling with the ref save enhancements. Then we can talk. Maybe.

Seneca_Windforge
02-04-2008, 08:43 PM
Agreed. A group of 4 characters of the same level as the stated level of the quest should be able to complete. Notice I did not say it should be easy, just that they should be able to complete it. If you want to say that "hard" is +2 levels and elite is +4 levels, fine. They you would expect to use level 5 characters on a level 1 quest set to elite. But as it is now, a level 1 elite quest is level 3. Level three characters should be able to compelete it as a group.

On the topic of saves and splash rogues. I don't see why you need to be a splash rogue to get enough reflex save (or why only pure rogues should have enough reflex save). Rangers actually get a better base save than rogues do... /shrug.

A level 14 pure rogue gets 9 and a 1 rogue/13 ranger gets 10.

So start with the base reflex save of 10 from the ranger rogue:
10
12 -- 34 dex
4 -- item (could be higher but this should be resonable)
2 -- luck (throughing in a raid item here, or drop this to 1 and wear a +5 resistance item.)
1 -- trap sense (more if pure rogue)
4 -- greater heroism
----
33 reflex save on a level 14 character, with decent gear.

If a character like this cannot make MOST of the saves against a trap (quest level 14 or lower), my opinion says, the system is broken.

Incorrect about base saves. Rangers and rogues both have the "good" progression for Reflex saves. The only reason why a Ranger/Rogue multiclass will have a better Reflex save is that the hybrid gets the +2 "good" bonus at 1st level two times, since save modifiers are added together from all classes.

Good: +2 at level one, +1 at every even level
Bad: +0 at level one, +1 every three levels

There are no other save progressions. Each class has either the Good or Bad progression in a given save.

Now, that being said...a group of average players should be able to complete a quest on elite when they are two levels higher than the quest on normal (level 5 quest on elite complete-able by level 7 characters). Maybe it should be harder than doing it at level 5 on normal, but a trap in a level one quest on elite with a required save of DC 30 is insane no matter how you slice it.

winsom
02-05-2008, 12:01 AM
The Acid, Fire and Spike traps at the start of Hidden in Plain Sight are Reflex DC 34 on HARD

Thats not killer for a high DEX & normal evasion character with buffs and some additional help from resists and/or trap sense saves bonuses. My DEX 26 bard 11/rogue 4 needed to roll a 6. Greater Heroism would reduce that to 4 and Uncanny Dodge to 1.

Damage on a failed save looks to be ~65 to 95, without Improved Evasion.

I'm happy with that. I guess I'll try Elite now. If you don't hear from me, you know what happened to little Kyonna...

8 + 33 failed Reflex on ELITE for ~150 damage from the acid or spikes. 11 + 32 succeeded. I did not test my luck long enough to find the exact number. Having to roll a 9+ for 140+ damage is deadly enough for me not to want to test her Reflexes if there is a higher level rogue around. Perhaps that is the point... Only has 177 HP with Rage Spell up.

Shade
02-05-2008, 01:09 AM
I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

studentx
02-05-2008, 04:58 AM
I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

So what your saying is you shouldn't be able to jump over traps. keep the new high DCs and make them unavoidable.

Sutek
02-05-2008, 08:02 AM
Higher damage = good
Higher DC = bad

The higher damage means that the traps are something to be respected now.

The DCs were fine the way they were. A good evasion build could stand in a trap without too much trouble but a cleric or fighter would be getting anoyed by the small amount of damage that traps used to deal. Now that same trap with the same DC would be a huge problem with the higher damage. The higher DC just means that now the evasion builds won't help in a trap and they have just made rogues even more useless. In order to build a rogue that can do a trap on elite now you MUST severly gimp him in other areas like DPS. We have enough crapy rogues running around thinking that all they are supposed to do is disable traps.

As far as traps that can not be disabled either put a lever in that will disable the trap. ie. evasion type required to run through the trap and pull the lever to turn off the trap. Or return the damage to previous values.

Hvymetal
02-05-2008, 08:20 AM
So what your saying is you shouldn't be able to jump over traps. keep the new high DCs and make them unavoidable.
No, what he is saying is that gear is Elite so all one needs to do to truely be Elite is visit a website......

Cedrica-the-Bard
02-05-2008, 08:26 AM
No, what he is saying is that gear is Elite so all one needs to do to truely be Elite is visit a website......


hehehe, good one! :D

Sutek
02-05-2008, 08:38 AM
No, what he is saying is that gear is Elite so all one needs to do to truely be Elite is visit a website......

/snicker

Zenix_Leviticus
02-05-2008, 09:06 AM
I think this is moving in the direction of 'needing' a certain build for a good number
of quests. I think that is a bad move no matter what class it is.

The player base is getting smaller all of the time. The last thing you need is to
make it so it is harder to find the people needed for a quest.

I do have a couple of real numbers for you guys.

VoN 4 Elite last Saturday
Spike Trap on the right where the floor breaks away - 119 to 134 dmg per hit to everyone in our group
Blade Traps on left going up the spiral - 165 points of damage

I can't actually tell you the numbers from here because 4 of the 6 of our level 15 run were dead.
I can tell you that the sorc died 3 times in the acid and fire traps on the final run. The cleric was
casting heal on himself after every fire & acid trap.

If we had stayed together and not tried to run it like it was a speed run on normal, we would have
faired better. HOWEVER, this was a quest that was 3 level BELOW us even on elite.


Later on the same day:

I watched a Rogue (don't know his specific stats) die so many times in the crucible that he had to leave
the quest to repair all of his broken armor to continue. The agility room trap was murdering him time and
time again. We only had the difficulty set to hard. It took us longer to get that one horn than it did to
complete the entire quest.


This whole thing seems a little extreme to me. I am all for a challenge, but I also want a playable game.

Vormaerin
02-05-2008, 09:24 AM
The jump in DCs on hard is especially annoying. Even if you grant that elite should somehow only belong to twinked min/max characters run by twitch gamers who memorize the quests (which I don't, but whatever), its still too much of a ramp up on hard. Gwylan's Hard with 36 DCs? Normal is a little too easy generally and hard is usually where I have the most fun (elite could be really wonky even before this, imho). A reasonable rogue build that is expected to do more than just contribute minimally between traps isn't going to easily make 36 DC trap checks at lvl 8 or so where the quest is rated. Is it really reasonable to have more than ~+20 as a Ref save at that point?

Zenako
02-05-2008, 09:28 AM
gonna concur and reiterate.

Damage uping, fine. Make them hurt. It was always kinda annoying to have a party just run through the trap since it was "easier" than waiting 10 seconds to have it taken down.

However, upping the DCs for saving against the traps needs to be revisited. Am I an elite trap meister, no, but I am pretty darn good at it. Did the old Cabal on Normal, but did not twink the build for Elite. Standing trap saves around 30, with extra buffs and boosts can get that up a bit more. I should not be walking into a low/mid level quest on elite and expecting to fail reflex saves versus traps over half the time. That is poor game design. I WOULD expect to have an issue with high level quests on elite. That is not the issue here.

Something about how they bumped the DC's did not scale appropriately. I find it basically stupid that a 1st level quest is requiring a DC30 save. It is basically telling people, that some parts of quests are no longer intended to be played by characters who would get any experience for that quest. Lets twink up a 3rd level toon. 22 DEX (+6), Rogue (+4), RR Resistence Item (+2), some morale bonus (+1), a couple of Points from Enhancements (+2) and trap Sense 1 (+1). That is +16, which means you still only have a 1/3 chance of saving, or you will die. And you must often make mulitple saves to get past most trap spots. So even a highly twinked build would have little to no chance at reasonable levels of accomplishing the task. Something was not figured out correctly.

Impaqt
02-05-2008, 09:35 AM
I think this is moving in the direction of 'needing' a certain build for a good number
of quests. I think that is a bad move no matter what class it is.

The player base is getting smaller all of the time. The last thing you need is to
make it so it is harder to find the people needed for a quest.


THe issue isnt "Needed" a certain class (In this case Rogue). Its about that "Needed" class still not having the Reflex to be able to DO what they are "Needed" for....

My deathdealer build can buff her Reflex to up around 40...... A VERY respectable number....... Or at least it used to be..... But because I focused on Being able to Kill stuff, She now has an issue with doing "Rogue" Stuff..... I spent the Morning Buffing her HP's Up.... THis is my original Death Dealer that started witha 10 CON.... 160-190 Hit Points was never a major issue.. I KNOW how to control my aggro quite well...

Now, a Toughness feat, a Minos Legent, and a CON Tome later shes sitting at 248 and will get up to 257 when I hit L16.... Hopefull that will afford me a little leeway with all the traps I'm going to continue to fail the Reflex save on.....

If not, She'll be shelved until these trap DC's get in line or I reroll her and splash Paly levels for the Save boost....

Right now, thats the ONLY way to make these saves... Paly Splashed Rogues.....

As for Player base.... You havent been playing lowbies lately have you? THe harbor is full of em... The marketing/Reviews on this mod has done wonders..... Its quite refreshing.

Aladon
02-05-2008, 11:26 AM
You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp...

Nice troll.

100 hp's on a leet sorc. Hehehe. Good one.

Best,

Aladon

Impaqt
02-05-2008, 11:43 AM
I didn't miss the point at all.
You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save -

Who Still Outkills your 4000 HP Barbarian by about 8:1 Ratio...

MrWizard
02-05-2008, 11:51 AM
Does anynoe have a combat log that tells what the actual fire/electricity damage was and what the save was?

To me it seems like 80 some hit points for a 9th level rogue plus 20-point resists plus 60 points of protection from a potion plus some healing potions and fire potion refills should be suficent. That's 140 points of damage that the trap would have to do to take the charcter out. A 9th level Ranger should have Evasion and his own protections/resists and almost 20 more hit points than the rogue.

Is it really that much? And isn't there a spot in the fire tunnel at the halfway point that's "safe?"

I'm just curious what the actual damage is.

goptta runit with my rogue, but I have been getting 'saved' damage of 70-95 when hit by elite traps in the 8-11 range. So that would be 140-almost 200 a hit. Quite a lot if a squishie at 7-11 level.

Zenix_Leviticus
02-05-2008, 12:49 PM
THe issue isnt "Needed" a certain class (In this case Rogue). Its about that "Needed" class still not having the Reflex to be able to DO what they are "Needed" for....

My deathdealer build can buff her Reflex to up around 40...... A VERY respectable number....... Or at least it used to be..... But because I focused on Being able to Kill stuff, She now has an issue with doing "Rogue" Stuff..... I spent the Morning Buffing her HP's Up.... THis is my original Death Dealer that started witha 10 CON.... 160-190 Hit Points was never a major issue.. I KNOW how to control my aggro quite well...

Now, a Toughness feat, a Minos Legent, and a CON Tome later shes sitting at 248 and will get up to 257 when I hit L16.... Hopefull that will afford me a little leeway with all the traps I'm going to continue to fail the Reflex save on.....

If not, She'll be shelved until these trap DC's get in line or I reroll her and splash Paly levels for the Save boost....

Right now, thats the ONLY way to make these saves... Paly Splashed Rogues.....

As for Player base.... You havent been playing lowbies lately have you? THe harbor is full of em... The marketing/Reviews on this mod has done wonders..... Its quite refreshing.


I have two rogues myself. One of them a 14th level pure drow rogue that could disable anything, but could not search
the Elite Cabal Trap. I have another that is 2 rogue/12 wizard that can buff all saves above 25.... My multi class only
has evasion and is now almost junk on anything other than normal quests. My pure rogue is only marginal better because
of the improved evasion. I understand the issue of not being able to do the job they are supposed to be good at.

That was actually my point, because now you will be required to have a twinked out trap monkey build to get the party
through these high level traps. You always have the option of sending the highest hp character through with a res ring
and have the cleric follow him. That just seems insane to me. It seems that anyone that has less than 200 hp or 40+
reflex saves is pretty much dead in elite traps.

This all gets back to my original statement that it seems as if the devs want you to take a highly specialized trap monkey
build to get through elite quests with traps. All other rogues will most likely die.



I designed my pure rogue to take advantage of the dps enhancements, but still be extremely reliable at disabling high
level traps. My multiclass actually has even better stats for traps because of the 32 int. Neither one will matter because
they don't have enough hp to even take one hit from a failed save from elite traps now.


All of this and I still haven't even talked about how lame the non-disableable traps are.


Didn't I read somewhere a couple of mods ago that the devs felt that disarming traps should NOT be a main focus
of the game? (I may be wrong but I thought I read this)

redoubt
02-05-2008, 05:31 PM
Incorrect about base saves. Rangers and rogues both have the "good" progression for Reflex saves. The only reason why a Ranger/Rogue multiclass will have a better Reflex save is that the hybrid gets the +2 "good" bonus at 1st level two times, since save modifiers are added together from all classes.

Good: +2 at level one, +1 at every even level
Bad: +0 at level one, +1 every three levels

There are no other save progressions. Each class has either the Good or Bad progression in a given save.

Now, that being said...a group of average players should be able to complete a quest on elite when they are two levels higher than the quest on normal (level 5 quest on elite complete-able by level 7 characters). Maybe it should be harder than doing it at level 5 on normal, but a trap in a level one quest on elite with a required save of DC 30 is insane no matter how you slice it.

Thank you for an intelligent and considered response as opposed to the person above you. I did not realize that was why my multiclass had a higher base save.

Other than that, I think we are in agreement.

To the other guy... you are right... my ranger rogue can't cut the new traps. Does it make sense that a level 14 ranger/rogue can't pass the trap save on a level 9 quest? The toon is not gimped. And, you should not have to be a specific race, nor should you have to have 100% of a given line of enhancements/feats to complete a quest. Please read, think and provide useful commentary rather than simply attempting to flame someone. What we are saying is that a well built trapsmith (not a 100%min/max) should be able to hang in those kinds of traps--with ease! Thank you.

redoubt
02-05-2008, 05:39 PM
I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

Please contact Shade@mmobay.com for all your elite player needs.

:D

P.S. Was saying, "If your elite - " a freudian slip? As in your "elite toon" that you bought? Or did you mean "If you are" or "If you're". Just curious cause I know I'm not that leet and I certainly have no business discussing the game and could use the help. :eek:

Vormaerin
02-05-2008, 05:49 PM
To the other guy... you are right... my ranger rogue can't cut the new traps. Does it make sense that a level 14 ranger/rogue can't pass the trap save on a level 9 quest? The toon is not gimped. And, you should not have to be a specific race, nor should you have to have 100% of a given line of enhancements/feats to complete a quest. Please read, think and provide useful commentary rather than simply attempting to flame someone. What we are saying is that a well built trapsmith (not a 100%min/max) should be able to hang in those kinds of traps--with ease! Thank you.

I full agree with you. My post was snide, but the snideness was directed at the situation not at you. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I don't support the level of DCs that are currently in the game, especially on hard which should be the bread and butter level for experienced players. But making it so your character can't pass a lvl 8 quest trap check (Gwylan's Hard) more than 75% of the time is not cool.

I don't accept Shade's definition of elite being only for 'twinked, min/maxed toons run by quest memorizing twitchers', but at least you can make an argument that elite isn't for ordinary characters. Making such an argument for hard is preposterous, imho.

Kargon
02-05-2008, 06:13 PM
Ouch.. Good one.. Course, Ihave the "Tactic" for that one figured out....

Let a UMDer/Cleric go First and get taken out by the first trap..
Throw em a Res so they can run through the rest dead and take the res at the bottom.
Raise Others as they come to the end.. Dead.....

Sweet "Tactic" eh?

Kargon makes it to the bottom on a sorcermermer, with just haste, with only get hit once, by very last trap. and kargon too lazy to remove feathermafall itamem. Just need to memorimize silly trap if are going do it elite (or have one rezzermer who can memorimize it ;))

Borrigain
02-05-2008, 06:55 PM
Kargon makes it to the bottom on a sorcermermer, with just haste, with only get hit once, by very last trap. and kargon too lazy to remove feathermafall itamem. Just need to memorimize silly trap if are going do it elite (or have one rezzermer who can memorimize it ;))

Kargon, have you tried facemabashing trap yet?

:D

borr.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-05-2008, 07:49 PM
I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

This ELITE thing you got going in your head is a bunch of bollucks.

PhoenixRajoNight
02-05-2008, 07:51 PM
I think this is moving in the direction of 'needing' a certain build for a good number
of quests. I think that is a bad move no matter what class it is.

The player base is getting smaller all of the time. The last thing you need is to
make it so it is harder to find the people needed for a quest.

I do have a couple of real numbers for you guys.

VoN 4 Elite last Saturday
Spike Trap on the right where the floor breaks away - 119 to 134 dmg per hit to everyone in our group
Blade Traps on left going up the spiral - 165 points of damage

I can't actually tell you the numbers from here because 4 of the 6 of our level 15 run were dead.
I can tell you that the sorc died 3 times in the acid and fire traps on the final run. The cleric was
casting heal on himself after every fire & acid trap.

If we had stayed together and not tried to run it like it was a speed run on normal, we would have
faired better. HOWEVER, this was a quest that was 3 level BELOW us even on elite.


Later on the same day:

I watched a Rogue (don't know his specific stats) die so many times in the crucible that he had to leave
the quest to repair all of his broken armor to continue. The agility room trap was murdering him time and
time again. We only had the difficulty set to hard. It took us longer to get that one horn than it did to
complete the entire quest.


This whole thing seems a little extreme to me. I am all for a challenge, but I also want a playable game.

Needing classes, is all over the place, the bottom line this is getting to is even the needed class (rogue) that has taken all the stuff required to get passed these traps cant even do it, so if a rogue cant even do it, why bother with one at all?

Shade
02-05-2008, 10:06 PM
Nice troll.

100 hp's on a leet sorc. Hehehe. Good one.

Best,

Aladon
Troll?
The quest is question was like a lvl8 quest.. 100 hp at lvl8 is fairly elite.

Uska
02-05-2008, 11:31 PM
But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!


I think you just want to argue....If your at level ie 9 on a level7 elite quest it should be possible to do the quest not easy but possible.The damage and the dc on traps needed to be raised but I think they went to far.

Uska
02-05-2008, 11:34 PM
Rogue 2 still gives Evasion which is the key ability necessary for traps such as these.

Yes but the splash rogues reflex save isnt usually high enough now for them as the dc on these traps has gone up by a high margin.

Traps my splash rogue/wizard could usually ignore hurt her a lot now sometimes even kill her. I am glad rogues are getting some love but I do think they boosted the dc's and damage slightly to much.

BLITHELY
02-06-2008, 04:50 AM
First off after having read all the posts in this thread I would like to thank all our elitist community members. Especially Shade whos "enlightened" opinions have always brought a warm fuzzy to my heart. Since my real opinion cannot be stated about his posts and others of the same ilk i will just say this: I agree with the majority of posters in this thread that the DC of traps that cannot be disabled should not scale the same as traps that can.

miceelf88
02-06-2008, 05:33 AM
I'll also point out that most of the design for PnP (yes, I know it's not the same thing) is for traps to slow parties down and consume resources, NOT kill a majority of the party outright or result in party wipes.

Another way in which we've gone further away from the spirit of the game to make the elitists happy.

Albel
02-13-2008, 12:01 AM
Don't know if this is even an active topic anymore but I finally got around to it:


Now I'm interested, I've got to run the pit tonight on my ranger and see if I can still solo it...


You could solo it on elite? Because that's what they're talking about. Normal should be unaffected, but elite is now nearly impossible. So they say.

Never actually tried it on elite before, but it's a lot easier on elite now than it ever was on hard before so....

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/wizzard013/ScreenShot00003.jpg

Solo: Check
Elite: Check
Lvl of my character: 13
My thoughts on Elite electrical traps : Yes they hit hard, they have a save DC of 37-38 (failed on 36 succeeded on 38) but the only times I was hit was when I stood in the trap and waited for it, not one of the electrical traps can hit you if you are careful to stand in the right spots. Also with 120 pt Protections and 20 pt resists I was taking 60-90 damage on a failed save.
Oh and my one reentry was due to a badly timed failure on a hold person save....

baddax
02-20-2008, 11:41 PM
Rogues like anything else is a varied class, just like induviduals. You may have an silent assasin build high sneak/move silently death dealer. You may have a squishy trap monkey. It just means that some rogues are more adept at traps and others are not.

Just like a fighter may be sword and board and others two handed; or a wizzie may be "fire spec'd". Different builds for different play styles. What it means is players will have to tell their party that " i might not be able to spot/disable this or that trap on elite" if they are not trap spec'd. Granted undisableable traps are a different story and i think dc's should be adjusted accordingly.

Once again i will state that i think that elite traps are an attempt to make rogues more valuable as party members, and not have to nerf the evasion/batman splash builds that are out there. I am in favor of all the above.

Also, more difficult traps will require partys to STOP and WAIT for the rogue to search/disable these traps instead of running past and leaving the rogue in the dust, only to catch up After end boss fight is finished. Also it will require partys to work together and be more creative in solving disarming traps and using theier resources more carefuly, which i also think is a good thing.

Aladon
02-21-2008, 10:36 AM
Don't know if this is even an active topic anymore but I finally got around to it:





Never actually tried it on elite before, but it's a lot easier on elite now than it ever was on hard before so....

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/wizzard013/ScreenShot00003.jpg

Solo: Check
Elite: Check
Lvl of my character: 13
My thoughts on Elite electrical traps : Yes they hit hard, they have a save DC of 37-38 (failed on 36 succeeded on 38) but the only times I was hit was when I stood in the trap and waited for it, not one of the electrical traps can hit you if you are careful to stand in the right spots. Also with 120 pt Protections and 20 pt resists I was taking 60-90 damage on a failed save.
Oh and my one reentry was due to a badly timed failure on a hold person save....

You make the same mistake a fellow did in the other thread. The fact that your 13th level ROG had little trouble in The Pit is not relevant. The Pit is a 9th level quest on elite. You found the lightning traps hard at 13th level. Tell us how you fare w/ your 9th level ROG.

Aladon