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Gol
01-31-2008, 11:15 AM
I used to be indifferent about it, but I never played on Risia.

I've found it worth taking the -4 movement penalty to interrupt the attack animation to prevent the 5th attack. 2HF, 2WF, or S&B, it only took me 1 quest to say "ok, this sucks".

Any time players are willing to take a big penalty to avoid something that's supposed to be "better", something is wrong.

Please give us a way to turn this off. I'd take a -2 to all attacks just to be able to turn it off. I would have multiclassed to a 0-bab class, but I was already triple classed Ranger/Fighter/Paladin.

Angelus_dead
01-31-2008, 01:30 PM
Please give us a way to turn this off. I'd take a -2 to all attacks just to be able to turn it off. I would have multiclassed to a 0-bab class, but I was already triple classed Ranger/Fighter/Paladin.
Allowing the 5th swing to be toggled would be an improvement, but would not be ideal.

A superior fix would be to edit all attack combo chains so that a character with BAB X+1 always has equal or greater attacks per second than that same character with BAB X. (Nothing else makes sense)

Going up in level, by definition, should be a reward. Only in special extreme cases should any character reduce an ability for going up a level.

The devs need to understand that attacks per second, attack-hit bonus, and glancing blow probability are distinct kinds of variable that cannot be fairly swapped one for another. Depending on the situation, and improvement to one of those things might or might not be worth a reduction in another. They can't simply say "Ok, your attack-per-second is 7% less, but your average hit bonus is +2 higher, and you've got +3% chance of glancing blows, so aren't you happier!"

Kargon
01-31-2008, 04:16 PM
Kargon found a simple but expensamive solutimion..... farm reavamer for +3 dex tome and change all melee charactermermers to 2 weapamon fightaming ;)

At least mean Kargon can go back to kargon roots and get back into the Bastard Sword game, rather than swing silly greatsword with two hands when even greatmaswords should easimally be 1handamed toothmapicks to kargon.

Twerpp
01-31-2008, 04:22 PM
Yes, the 5th handed attack sucks in many ways, and the fact that they didnt add the super thf feat makes it worse. Unless you are a barbarian I would highly recommend the spring attack chain if you have the required dex. Way to "f" the melees devs.

PhoenixRajoNight
01-31-2008, 04:25 PM
I used to be indifferent about it, but I never played on Risia.

I've found it worth taking the -4 movement penalty to interrupt the attack animation to prevent the 5th attack. 2HF, 2WF, or S&B, it only took me 1 quest to say "ok, this sucks".

Any time players are willing to take a big penalty to avoid something that's supposed to be "better", something is wrong.

Please give us a way to turn this off. I'd take a -2 to all attacks just to be able to turn it off. I would have multiclassed to a 0-bab class, but I was already triple classed Ranger/Fighter/Paladin.

Time to use that Power Attack or even defensive fighting mode, Oh wait that wouldn't fix it would it?

Kromize
01-31-2008, 04:34 PM
IMO the attack chain is completely broken. I don't know about PnP either.

I believe that the the chain should be similar to this:

During the chain, you get a +5 added to your attack bonus for each attack you hit on, and if you miss, the ongoing bonus stays the same. So if you attack with the 5 attack combo, hit the first and third times, miss on the second and fourth, the fifth attack should have a +10 bonus.

Also, as for attack speed, well. I think that each combo needs to be about the same speed. It only makes sense that as you get more experienced you learn how to land more attacks in the same amount of time. Why would you ever attack once more, slowing down your attack process? The entire chain needs to be sped up to be almost as fast as the normal 3 attack chain. Seriously...

Hence
01-31-2008, 04:36 PM
Im scared to level my Fighter any.
No new enhancements or feats.
Slower attack rate.

Why shouldn't I just stay at level 14?

Gol
01-31-2008, 05:02 PM
Why shouldn't I just stay at level 14?I honestly don't see any reason to bother aside from the extra HP and the stat point at 16.

Twerpp
01-31-2008, 05:08 PM
the BAB so you can attack slower, the stat point, and the AP to spend on more of the same enhancements. Highly disappointing mod for fighters and barbs, I feel like the kid who didn't get invited to the party.

Averroes
01-31-2008, 05:12 PM
I honestly don't see any reason to bother aside from the extra HP and the stat point at 16.

Yeah, looks like my various full-BAB characters will be staying at 14 until there's something remotely like a reason to level up.

Doesn't look like BAB is going to matter much aside from swing speed -- I don't remember my barb needing to roll higher than a 2 to hit anything thus far.

Hence
01-31-2008, 05:23 PM
Yeah, and going the route of adding two rogue levels does not help any, same slowdown at level 16.

I think Ill stick to level 14, I already kick butt, a few more HP and AP are not going to net me anything and a +1 stat point would help my Wis score even out, but why bother for 1 will save?

I should probably just play my cleric once I get my Fighter raid ready. Until Mod 7 I suppose.

Highly disappointing to the Pure Fighters and Barbs.

The_Phenx
01-31-2008, 06:15 PM
Im a twf... I took level.. dumped Spring attack took oversize twf and am taking the halfling dragon marks since we got skimped on superior.

Picked up 2 more attacks from last level.. dunno if its improved or not lol.

+3 more to hit while standing still -1 while moving from where I was at 14th.

captain1z
01-31-2008, 08:08 PM
granted I usually have my head deep in the sand and I dont see things for what they are but......................



5th attack............. whats the big deal?

logged onto my pali............ leveled ............ had a new up-swing. Was like ok <shrug>
Logged onto my dwarf fighter....... was getting my but kicked......... switched to a 2handed paralyzer for relief....... didnt see a big deal.
2 weapon guy isnt high enuff.... was trying to level but... mmmeeehhhh

What Im asking is................ whats the disadvantage of this 5th strike? I dont see it.... I mean you hit or you miss right?

ViVid7th
01-31-2008, 08:35 PM
granted I usually have my head deep in the sand and I dont see things for what they are but......................



5th attack............. whats the big deal?

logged onto my pali............ leveled ............ had a new up-swing. Was like ok <shrug>
Logged onto my dwarf fighter....... was getting my but kicked......... switched to a 2handed paralyzer for relief....... didnt see a big deal.
2 weapon guy isnt high enuff.... was trying to level but... mmmeeehhhh

What Im asking is................ whats the disadvantage of this 5th strike? I dont see it.... I mean you hit or you miss right?

When they added in the 5th attack, the number of attacks you get per minute went down. That means less hits (Since high BAB classes almost always hit anyways) which means less damage which means melee falls further behind casters. You level up, your damage goes down. Fighters haven't gotten anything good going from 14 to 16, while everything else has choices atleast.

No +16 BAB required feats, no special enhancements, nothing.

captain1z
01-31-2008, 08:58 PM
When they added in the 5th attack, the number of attacks you get per minute went down. That means less hits (Since high BAB classes almost always hit anyways) which means less damage which means melee falls further behind casters. You level up, your damage goes down. Fighters haven't gotten anything good going from 14 to 16, while everything else has choices atleast.

No +16 BAB required feats, no special enhancements, nothing.

eeehhhh.


I dont really think about it. I swing I kill I loot I have fun................... oh yeah I also get owned in the vale.

Guess its just not that big a deal on my radar.

Im a bit disappionted that I end up locked in mortal kombat with a hyena for like 3 mins and am near death before it dies.
I thought 15th level would give me the right to pwn animals but sadly dogs and spiders can still jack me for my stuff.
I now swing my vorpal and pray he dies before I do. Im feeling a bit inadequate in the vale and it has nothing to do with a 5th swing.
Felt that way with gianthold also, so I guess this will pass .............

I will say that as a cleric I now do a lot more to help the melees offensively. Devils and outsiders should make us all feel weak ............
but a 15th level fighter locked in a life or death struggle with a dog is not heroic to me ....... its sad and makes me wanna call the ASPCA.


There is very little in the way of combat fodder in DDO......... even the kobolds have turned into paragons.

Just early gripes.... I may adjust in a few days.

gpk
01-31-2008, 09:02 PM
A great many of us voiced our concerns before mod6 went live, those concerns seem to have fallen on deaf ears.
Ironicall our concerns about the 5th swing at +15 attack bonus didn't...

For there not to be at LEAST a 10&#37; speed increase at BAB 15 is rather hard to understand; Maybe Eladrin or Codog can shed some light on this situation.

I guess this is one way to curtail the use of Divine Power clickies; devalue the higher BAB :rolleyes:

adamkatt
01-31-2008, 09:16 PM
Cant they just do an easy solution and speed melee up like 10% and slove this problem?

wizzy_catt
01-31-2008, 09:17 PM
A great many of us voiced our concerns before mod6 went live, those concerns seem to have fallen on deaf ears.
DEAF? u mean BLIND and BRAINLESS? i doubt they even READ US! Prove me wrong devs. do you even spend time to read what players are thinking?

captain1z
01-31-2008, 09:33 PM
DEAF? u mean BLIND and BRAINLESS? i doubt they even READ US! Prove me wrong devs. do you even spend time to read what players are thinking?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=133255&highlight=5th+attack


not to argue but I do need to point out that several devs have commented on the 5th attack and the fact that they adjusted it because of forum complaints that it was to slow.... they even changed it when attacking in other ways with diff weapons.


the WDA reflects this

and as a side note

Q changed his sig because a few of us wanted regular updates on DEV projects and stuff.

Bottom line - I do believe they listen to us. They may not be able to give us everything we want or everything we want as quickly as we want.......... but they do hear us. To suggest otherwise is not fair to them.

Better to say they went forward with mod 6 with something other than what "we" wanted. It would be a more true statement.
even if i dont entirely support it.



*Lastly - a thread in development forum named "The Dog house" Constant dev traffic, many with opinions on the 5th attack and even a devs reason why you should spend a feat on Kamas instead of using a sickle..... sort of.*

Knightrose
01-31-2008, 09:54 PM
Maybe Spring Attack is gonna make a comeback now. :p

Fallout
01-31-2008, 11:34 PM
So played today with my barb. Wow this 5th attack blows. Just slows everything down. I rather not have it. Mean while, TWF especially for rangers got better. I know there was some ranger love, but this is a sick joke.

Strykersz
02-01-2008, 12:02 AM
This could help turn things around for casters.

Knightrose
02-01-2008, 12:33 AM
This could help turn things around for casters.


Because a Fire Spec'd Sorcerer really needs a helping hand to stay ahead...

PhoenixRajoNight
02-01-2008, 02:29 AM
Was gonna quote a post, but theres a couple around the same topic of the fighters getting jipped on the mod. Heres the problem after 12th lvl the benefits of being a fighter drop off, but you still have some stuff you can grab to help out from these lvl 12 and lower required feats and such. All the feats and other abilities a fighter class can do passed 12th lvl in pnp are all in extended/supplemental books of dnd, I dont know how long before we see some of them implemented, or if we will. Things like PHB2 and complete warrior and some other completes have the fighter stuff, and theres alot of material to go thru. Also if they start implementing these things they gotta grab stuff for other classes too its alot to look thru and see if it could be added and/or balanced right, I don't like slow progress, but I really can't yell at turbine for this, its something that would require atleast a 10 person team just to look at it let alone program it or nething else. This is something I'm very willing to be patient with turbine about because I know its alot of work, as it is alrdy so just as a gm to cover it and say things are ok to use in a pnp campaign.

Deriaz
02-01-2008, 06:54 AM
I dunno. . . It doesn't bug me at all. I actually like the upswing and follow-through animation, mainly cause it fits my character so well.

Haven't really noticed a decrease in damage cause of a slowdown (Which I can't notice. :x). . . Took Greater Weapon Specialization, so maybe it evened out, but I'm still doing the same, if not more damage, than I did before.

I dunno. . . I like it. Even if they speed it up or whatever, I just hope that animation stays.

-D

Yaga_Nub
02-01-2008, 07:16 AM
So played today with my barb. Wow this 5th attack blows. Just slows everything down. I rather not have it. Mean while, TWF especially for rangers got better. I know there was some ranger love, but this is a sick joke.

I don't know what you are talking about Fallout. My TWFing ranger looks like he is in slow motion all the time. On Wednesday I was chugging haste pots JUST BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS SLOWED! When I started swinging faster (for 30 seconds) I was mad that I had to waste a haste pot to counter slow (didn't have any remove paralysis pots). Then I got upset that it seemed like everything was hitting me with slow or fatigue. Finally one of guildies told me that I was fine and that my swing speed was WORKING AS INTENDED!!!! grrrrrrrrr

Talcyndl
02-01-2008, 07:36 AM
I certainly noticed the slowdown on my fighter and rogue (who took Greater TWF).

Oh well, not the end of the world. But it would be nice to get some fix for the issue.

And can my rogue get some feat choices for level 16? :D

MysticTheurge
02-01-2008, 08:36 AM
For there not to be at LEAST a 10% speed increase at BAB 15 is rather hard to understand; Maybe Eladrin or Codog can shed some light on this situation.

This really seems like the easiest solution.

gpk
02-01-2008, 08:44 AM
This really seems like the easiest solution.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt't it suggested by multiple players multiple times across multiple threads on the first Risia release?

MysticTheurge
02-01-2008, 08:46 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt't it suggested by multiple players multiple times across multiple threads on the first Risia release?

I don't believe you are wrong.

Fallout
02-01-2008, 10:31 AM
I don't know what you are talking about Fallout. My TWFing ranger looks like he is in slow motion all the time. On Wednesday I was chugging haste pots JUST BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS SLOWED! When I started swinging faster (for 30 seconds) I was mad that I had to waste a haste pot to counter slow (didn't have any remove paralysis pots). Then I got upset that it seemed like everything was hitting me with slow or fatigue. Finally one of guildies told me that I was fine and that my swing speed was WORKING AS INTENDED!!!! grrrrrrrrr

The tempest TWF goes a little faster it seemed to me. But overall it seems like they're toning down melee power to level things off. Its fine if they do that, but they have to make it consistent across the board.

tihocan
02-01-2008, 11:47 AM
This really seems like the easiest solution.
Codog already ruled out speeding up animations by a fixed percentage. He said it looked horrible (in answer to why greatsword animation wasn't sped up to match the greataxe one).
I must admit I'm not really convinced, since it doesn't look that bad when we are hasted... and they add enhancements to speed up animations for rangers.

gpk
02-01-2008, 11:55 AM
Codog already ruled out speeding up animations by a fixed percentage. He said it looked horrible (in answer to why greatsword animation wasn't sped up to match the greataxe one).
I must admit I'm not really convinced, since it doesn't look that bad when we are hasted... and they add enhancements to speed up animations for rangers.

Yes it does look fine hasted or whatever...

Well the animator working on those monk kicks can take 1 day from that and tweak the m&#234;l&#233;e animations.

The 5th swing is already a double attack , I think it wouldn't take much work (if any) to remove the 4th swing and replace it with the current 5th swing animation but have it attack 2x, once on the upward swing once on the returning swing.

I also can't understand why greataxes, greatswords and falchions can't have the same swing speed; it seems like a rather trivial thing to me.

I'm really surprised and terribly disappointed the BAB15+ swings are what they are :( .
While these "little things" may not seem like much to some devs, it's a big let down to the players.

Hence
02-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Well, I have enough experience to level and spend a few action points... but I just can't talk myself into it.
If there was some way to go back a level after I leveled, I would check it out. But Im afraid at how disappointed I will be.
So, Im going to stick to level 14 until its either fixed or we get another level bump next year.

It is a shame they made these animations back when the lead designer envisioned melee having double crit range on their last attacks. If that was the case, the slow down would be warranted, but now that the lead is gone and the game has taken a different direction, us melee are sol.

It saddens me that some things in this game were designed from the start, but never had the content to back them up thus delaying our progression to the point where the "vision" is changed but they insist on using their old work still.

From the lead dev back in the day, melee would continue on the path of double crit range for fourth and fifth swing, this is because he knew it would be slowed down to compensate. Im sure these guys will screw it up good with whatever fix they intend to implement, just like they have in the past.

Emili
02-01-2008, 12:50 PM
granted I usually have my head deep in the sand and I dont see things for what they are but......................



5th attack............. whats the big deal?

logged onto my pali............ leveled ............ had a new up-swing. Was like ok <shrug>
Logged onto my dwarf fighter....... was getting my but kicked......... switched to a 2handed paralyzer for relief....... didnt see a big deal.
2 weapon guy isnt high enuff.... was trying to level but... mmmeeehhhh

What Im asking is................ whats the disadvantage of this 5th strike? I dont see it.... I mean you hit or you miss right?

You swing slower in the same time-frame that a level 14 does... level 14 Sword and Board with 4 swings get 96 die rolls a minute while a level 15 Sword and Board gets 80 die rolls a minute... what that comes down to is a level 14 actually does more damage quicker.. because they get about three swings in 2 seconds (Bab14) vs 4 swings in 3 seocnds (Bab 15). Comes down to the game engine allows three BAB 10-14 take down a raid boss or mob boss quicker than three BAB 15-16 charaters via melee ... I know we're speaking about a few seconds here but that can be a significant outcome to a quest... ie.) cleric running out of mana for support per say.

Club'in
02-01-2008, 12:57 PM
If they can't/won't speed up the animations, why not add a mechanic that has just now entered the game with the Deepwood Sniper enhancement. Give that last swing either a +1 critical threat range, or +1 to the critical multiplier. (either/or, not both)

MysticTheurge
02-01-2008, 01:31 PM
Codog already ruled out speeding up animations by a fixed percentage. He said it looked horrible (in answer to why greatsword animation wasn't sped up to match the greataxe one).

Can you find the source for this? I just don't remember him saying this specifically.

And yeah, I'm not sure how it can look that bad, given that the game already has a lot of stuff that speeds up the attack sequence.

Kaldaka
02-01-2008, 01:37 PM
You swing slower in the same time-frame that a level 14 does... level 14 Sword and Board with 4 swings get 96 die rolls a minute while a level 15 Sword and Board gets 80 die rolls a minute... what that comes down to is a level 14 actually does more damage quicker.. because they get about three swings in 2 seconds (Bab14) vs 4 swings in 3 seocnds (Bab 15). Comes down to the game engine allows three BAB 10-14 take down a raid boss or mob boss quicker than three BAB 15-16 charaters via melee ... I know we're speaking about a few seconds here but that can be a significant outcome to a quest... ie.) cleric running out of mana for support per say.

Hmm are you sure you checked this lately? According to the latest (just prior to release) news about MOD 6:


NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5

So they HAVE been listening to us, and have done some things about it. Give them more time and they will hopefully do more.

paintedman
02-01-2008, 01:51 PM
...but two things I think we need to think about.

First you get slower attacks, fine, but with a +1 and another +1 at sixteen right?

Second, attacks eventually have to even out their pace as we get to higher levels, you may not like the next two levels as fighters, but if you branch off now the new feats and enhancements may be off your end mark. And then you will be stuck with a mixed class that you have to think about doing all over again from scratch!

We should focus on all aspects of these changes, not just the DPS portion, yes it is important, but it is not the only thing that will make a character successful.

-paint

tihocan
02-01-2008, 01:57 PM
Can you find the source for this? I just don't remember him saying this specifically.

And yeah, I'm not sure how it can look that bad, given that the game already has a lot of stuff that speeds up the attack sequence.
Good thing you asked, so I could re-read it again: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1392396#post1392396

Looks like what does not work is actually speeding-up individual animations in the chain, not the whole chain itself. My apologies to Codog for the bad quote ;) (it raises another question though, that I'm going to ask in his thread...)

gpk
02-01-2008, 09:02 PM
Right, individual attacks in the chain. The WDA even said the 5th attack was sped up to the speed of the 4th, not the BAB15 attack chain sped up to the speed up the BAB15 chain.

That last +10 attack bonus really only kicks on for very high AC mobs; and if you are designing your mobs around that +10 (previously +15) then you are not only hurting BAB1/1 classes but every other partial BAB class as well.

If you're worried about speeding up animations fine, split the difference: +10 AB on 5th swing AND a 10-15% mêlée speed boost.

BAB15 is the big one for mêlée classes, we've been waitin for this sicne level 10, there should have been a noticeable appreciable boost in fighting prowess...

captain1z
02-01-2008, 09:12 PM
You swing slower in the same time-frame that a level 14 does... level 14 Sword and Board with 4 swings get 96 die rolls a minute while a level 15 Sword and Board gets 80 die rolls a minute... what that comes down to is a level 14 actually does more damage quicker.. because they get about three swings in 2 seconds (Bab14) vs 4 swings in 3 seocnds (Bab 15). Comes down to the game engine allows three BAB 10-14 take down a raid boss or mob boss quicker than three BAB 15-16 charaters via melee ... I know we're speaking about a few seconds here but that can be a significant outcome to a quest... ie.) cleric running out of mana for support per say.

OK...... I get it when you put it that way. Thnx for the explanation. When I play I just dont think about stuff like that.......

Im just trying to survive and help out as best I can.


What if the 5th attack did an extra 5pts of damage or lowered your crit range by 1 or upped your crit modifier by +X1

would you all accept the slower attack?

Hence
02-01-2008, 09:36 PM
OK...... I get it when you put it that way. Thnx for the explanation. When I play I just dont think about stuff like that.......

Im just trying to survive and help out as best I can.


What if the 5th attack did an extra 5pts of damage or lowered your crit range by 1 or upped your crit modifier by +X1

would you all accept the slower attack?

Yes, if the higher crit range that melee used to get was put back for the 5th attack, I would have no problem going slower. The animation was designed with this in mind, but they took it out because casters were not as powerful at level 10. Well the see-saw shifted at level 14 with the fat kid being the Sorc/Casters. Its time to feed the skinny melee kid some protein to balance out the see-saw some.

I dont propose a double crit range is in order for our last attack, it would be nice and justifiable... but just a +1 or +2 to our crit range would be fine. At least for pure bab classes to give us some advantage to attacking slower.

Beherit_Baphomar
02-02-2008, 09:17 AM
Now y'all are interested in the 5th attack animation...*sigh*

*mumblestriedtogetitchangedbeforetheMODcameinmumbl es*

I havent played the new MOD that much, and what I have played Ive been on my cleric.
My TWF guildies love it, I know I hate it on my greataxe barb, I played him on Risia.

Terrible animation, as Gol said anything that you try to stop happening in this game is a bad thing. Whether it be multiclassing
with a BAB +0 class or moving before that final swing is just not good for the game...turns people off an already dying set
of classes.

Angelus_dead
02-02-2008, 01:34 PM
Yes, if the higher crit range that melee used to get was put back for the 5th attack, I would have no problem going slower.
You should have a problem. There are some monsters which are immune to crits, and which have low AC but high hitpoints. Infernal Portals come to mind: AC 1, 10000 hp, DR 10, and 100% Fortification. Against an enemy like that, the new swings are less damage than the old swings.


The animation was designed with this in mind, but they took it out because casters were not as powerful at level 10.
No, it wasn't.