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View Full Version : Hey guys/Devs, maybe it's time to review Paralyzers??



Bloodyfury
01-25-2008, 07:26 PM
Ok, I admit the nerf was necessary a few months/weeks after launch as some people had a few of them when we were only max lvl 10 (tx to the Threnal mess), crushing about anything in the game in a blink. It was totally unbalancing, no doubt about that and you had to do something, which you did.

The subject comes back occasionnally, but I thought it was time for another reminder ;)

For people unaware of this change, when paralyzing a mob, we're suppose to automatically crit on a hit. Now, when you paralyze something, you just hit normally, kinda like: "You can't move?! I'll stab you in the heart! Doh, I'm too stupid, I can only hit your toes everytime..." :p:rolleyes:

Fact is, of the 5 ubers we can pull in the game, paralyzers are simply total junk! Except maybe VERY occasionnally in some good TWF combo, no one in his right mind ever use them now, unless you want to spend 3 hours to run a 15 minutes quest... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

And this is wrong, this is a rare and difficult pull to get and it should means something!

When mobs were having only 200 HPs and +5 saves, okay, I understand the need to balance stuff.

When they now have 1000 HPs and +20 saves to the point it would still takes 10-15 secs to take a mob down even with auto crits, I fail to see how unbalancing it is, especially as most mobs would have to roll a 1 on their save to be paralyze (DC 17 is a joke for most mobs!) and somes even have innate/permanent freedom of movement on now.

So I think you made the good decision to balance this more than a year ago.
Now that this is completely useless and unused by the majority of the community, maybe it'd be time again to take the good decision and put that back to what it is suppose to be? :o:cool:

Edit:

You can't para bosses.
You can't para constructs.
You can't crit undeads. (tho I think we can para them in DDO but it wouldn't change anything for them anyway)

For the rest, it won't be unbalancing, it would just be slower than W/P weapons.

Now the problem could be that there's too many para weapons around, which is kinda true. Maybe lower the DC 17 to DC 14 or 15?

salmag
01-25-2008, 07:29 PM
/signed.

Instead of nerfing they should just make them rarer (more rare?). Harder to find.

Vizzini
01-25-2008, 07:32 PM
**shrug** I'm undecided on this.. I'd love to see paralyzers be what they used to be, but I'm afraid if that were the case I'd lose interest in the game very quickly.

/notsigned

Bloodyfury
01-25-2008, 07:38 PM
**shrug** I'm undecided on this.. I'd love to see paralyzers be what they used to be, but I'm afraid if that were the case I'd lose interest in the game very quickly.

/notsigned

I don't see why... ??

You can't para bosses.
You can't para constructs.
You can't crit undeads. (tho I think we can para them in DDO but it wouldn't change anything for them anyway)

For the rest, it won't be unbalancing, it would just be slower than W/P weapons.

Nevthial
01-25-2008, 07:39 PM
The only thing I don't like about paralyzed enemies is their ability to cast spells while frozen. I do want that changed. And maybe raise the DC to 19 or so. ( The DC as it is doesn't really bother me, I use Crushing Despair & Curse alot to make it stick. ) Perhaps a Greater Parayzer?

WeaselKing
01-25-2008, 09:53 PM
Ok, I admit the nerf was necessary a few months/weeks after launch as some people had a few of them when we were only max lvl 10 (tx to the Threnal mess), crushing about anything in the game in a blink. It was totally unbalancing, no doubt about that and you had to do something, which you did.

The subject comes back occasionnally, but I thought it was time for another reminder ;)

For people unaware of this change, when paralyzing a mob, we're suppose to automatically crit on a hit. Now, when you paralyze something, you just hit normally, kinda like: "You can't move?! I'll stab you in the heart! Doh, I'm too stupid, I can only hit your toes everytime..." :p:rolleyes:

Fact is, of the 5 ubers we can pull in the game, paralyzers are simply total junk! Except maybe VERY occasionnally in some good TWF combo, no one in his right mind ever use them now, unless you want to spend 3 hours to run a 15 minutes quest... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

And this is wrong, this is a rare and difficult pull to get and it should means something!

When mobs were having only 200 HPs and +5 saves, okay, I understand the need to balance stuff.

When they now have 1000 HPs and +20 saves to the point it would still takes 10-15 secs to take a mob down even with auto crits, I fail to see how unbalancing it is, especially as most mobs would have to roll a 1 on their save to be paralyze (DC 17 is a joke for most mobs!) and somes even have innate/permanent freedom of movement on now.

So I think you made the good decision to balance this more than a year ago.
Now that this is completely useless and unused by the majority of the community, maybe it'd be time again to take the good decision and put that back to what it is suppose to be? :o:cool:

Edit:

You can't para bosses.
You can't para constructs.
You can't crit undeads. (tho I think we can para them in DDO but it wouldn't change anything for them anyway)

For the rest, it won't be unbalancing, it would just be slower than W/P weapons.

Now the problem could be that there's too many para weapons around, which is kinda true. Maybe lower the DC 17 to DC 14 or 15?

I hardly call it useless when my Ranger uses her para bow and improved precise shot to create some pretty effective crowd control or when the same ranger with an unbuffed 12 con is able to solo other content two weapon fighting with dual paralyzers and not getting hit due to the agro control. Although it would seem to make more logical sense (I use the term loosely as this is a fantasy game) to have autocrits for paralyzing, I see no reason why they should change this (back). Paralyzers seem just fine as is I feel like I'm cheating, using them anyway.

And for the record:

You can't paralyze undead.

and

Banishers are the redheaded stepchildren of the power 5, not paralyzers.

MrCow
01-25-2008, 10:22 PM
I shall refer you to the effect that paralyzers actually produce:


Dazed

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round.

As for issues with the DC, paralyzing weapons (or rather, weapons of dazing) are still useful on low Will save critters such as vermin, animals, and non-spell casting giants.

If you want a weapon that can produce auto-crits you can always lug around a weapon with the Weighted quality. :D

Xalted_Vol
01-25-2008, 11:34 PM
Put em back devs.:cool:

Bloodyfury
01-25-2008, 11:39 PM
I shall refer you to the effect that paralyzers actually produce:



As for issues with the DC, paralyzing weapons (or rather, weapons of dazing) are still useful on low Will save critters such as vermin, animals, and non-spell casting giants.

If you want a weapon that can produce auto-crits you can always lug around a weapon with the Weighted quality. :D

Interesting, so it would produce Daze monster instead of hold monster?

I thought it was suppose to paralyze, but they change it to daze cuz they wanted to remove the auto-crit feature....no?

sirgog
01-26-2008, 12:19 AM
IMO Paralyzers are still useful except on endgame elite quests where they are mediocre.

I think they'd risk being too good with this change. Especially powerlevelling - can you imagine how easy 6 level 10 characters would find a quest like Cabal for One with uber-paralyzers?

/not signed

Pellegro
01-26-2008, 01:11 AM
I think paralyzers are still very effective. Not on elite on high end content - true. But otherwise, quite effective.

Cranking them up to autocrits would be too much. And it was too much. It was an "I win" button.

/not signed.

Bloodyfury
01-26-2008, 01:29 AM
I think paralyzers are still very effective. Not on elite on high end content - true. But otherwise, quite effective.

Cranking them up to autocrits would be too much. And it was too much. It was an "I win" button.

/not signed.

Probly right seeing how many are out there :p

Dariuss
01-26-2008, 01:56 AM
Probly right seeing how many are out there :p

there's none in my bank account :(

Mad_Bombardier
01-26-2008, 10:54 AM
For people unaware of this change, when paralyzing a mob, we're suppose to automatically crit on a hit. Now, when you paralyze something, you just hit normally, kinda like: "You can't move?! I'll stab you in the heart! Doh, I'm too stupid, I can only hit your toes everytime..." :p:rolleyes:Yes, Paralyzers don't actually paralyze; they daze (see Condition Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) on the SRD). I think they work fine as Dazing, it's a perfect melee complement weapon for low DPS builds. But, I recognize the confusion. Perhaps they should just be renamed as "Dazing" weapons? :)

Zenako
01-26-2008, 11:07 AM
Not signed/

Paralyzers are for CC, not DPS. They give the DPS hunds free whacks without return strikes all the time. The saves on them are quite reasonable, I Para things all the time in high end content. My Rangers default combo for TWF is Para and a W/P daggers. REALLY cuts down the healing bills, and while doing so, the rest of the front lines gets many many free whacks to take down then Green Hooped mobs.

Will they work on bosses....nope, but then neither do tons of other things either. so EASY button for the win.

AS for casting while Paralyzed, I am pretty sure it is really a action que thing we are seeing. The mob is finishing the active spell they were casting. The order from the server occured prior to recieving the Para status. Just latency and things like that. Now there are some clear exceptions and the moving idiots. That also happens to the Lawn gnomes at times. Nothing funnier than seeing a Statue charging down the hall at you...until it smashes into you. Possibly the same root, with the CHARGE action in the que being completed before the server sees the Stoned action with movement 0 speed. I hope there are ways to make changes to the coding to make those situations less common, but really now, we can all adapt. I have had it work in my favor a few times, as I have gotten hits on mobs AFTER being held and killed my enemy that way. Same root problem.

tekn0mage
01-26-2008, 12:53 PM
How all of you Rule-Lawyers can quote the d20 reference and overlook this just blows me away.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed

A paralyzer should paralyze. Nuff said.

Otherwise its not a paralyzer.

Elliott777
01-26-2008, 12:56 PM
While having a paralyzer cause an auto critical hit makes sense, I think the free attacks are usually enough to compensate. As long as the monsters lose any Dex bonus to AC and are considered flat footed. They should be easier to hit for sure.

Helmet
01-26-2008, 01:33 PM
i vividly remember running (farming) south threnal with paralyzers, and i do not recall autocrits....

was this done the same time they nerfed banishing?

Bloodyfury
01-26-2008, 02:23 PM
How all of you Rule-Lawyers can quote the d20 reference and overlook this just blows me away.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed

A paralyzer should paralyze. Nuff said.

Otherwise its not a paralyzer.

Pretty much what I think :p

Beherit_Baphomar
01-26-2008, 02:29 PM
Paralyzers are the only "power 5" worth anything against non-undead mobs.

You honestly think, OP, that it takes longer to run a quest when someone is paralyzing than it does without??
What kinda sense does that make?

Para'd mobs dont hit back, they dont cast, they cant move, they are unable to do anything to affect the party...why would this be considered junk?

Auto-crits on a para'd mobs is way too overpowered, back at level cap 10 and now.
10-15 seconds to take something down that has 1000hps when they are being autocritted?
Thats funny. What type of people do you run these quests with?

Go find yourself a caster that uses mass hold and tell me it takes 10-15 seconds to take anything down.
And then tell me that having that ability, that unlimited ability on a weapon wouldnt be overpowered.

Para's are fine the way they are, its people who dont know how to run their characters that are the problem.

EDIT; When I say they dont do XXX when paralyzed I really mean they shouldnt do XXX while paralyzed.

Shrazkil
01-26-2008, 03:42 PM
My suggestions, Either :

1) Raise the DC on paralyzing weapons by about 4.

2) Raise the DC by about 10, allow effect only on criticals.

3) Lower DC by 2, allow them to do a true paralyze, with auto-crit.

boldarblood
01-26-2008, 04:22 PM
My suggestions, Either :

1) Raise the DC on paralyzing weapons by about 4.

2) Raise the DC by about 10, allow effect only on criticals.

3) Lower DC by 2, allow them to do a true paralyze, with auto-crit.

4) sell them on the AH to buy DPS weapons instead... ;)

MrCow
01-26-2008, 04:26 PM
A paralyzer should paralyze. Nuff said.

Otherwise its not a paralyzer.

And that would be the reason a few of us are either not calling them paralyzers or are asking that they be renamed as weapons of dazing.

Mad_Bombardier
01-26-2008, 04:39 PM
And that would be the reason a few of us are either not calling them paralyzers or are asking that they be renamed as weapons of dazing.Technically, "Dazing" weapons since it's a prefix. But, ditto. He missed that part is all. ;)

We have true paralysis weapons, they are called "of Weighted." Of course, those need a rename, too. Currently, they augment or randomly inflict Stunning Blows. And Stunning Blows aren't really Stunning, but rather "Helpless-ing."

MysticTheurge
01-26-2008, 10:16 PM
For the rest, it won't be unbalancing, it would just be slower than W/P weapons.

You do realize if they made your change there'd be little reason to have a W/P weapon, since just a P weapon would do the job just as fast. You know, since you're auto-critting things.


A paralyzer should paralyze. Nuff said.

Otherwise its not a paralyzer.

I agree. They should change the name of it.

GlassCannon
01-27-2008, 01:33 AM
**shrug** I'm undecided on this.. I'd love to see paralyzers be what they used to be, but I'm afraid if that were the case I'd lose interest in the game very quickly.

/notsigned



Why?

Explain this to me in detail why you would use the paralyzer and nothing but the paralyzer.

If something makes the game boring, use something else. If an entire party is using them you can simply drop crew and set up an LFM for your own crew that says "No paralyzers please" and form up a good tactical run.

I'd personally love to have them turned back into what they used to be. As it stands mine only work in certain quests/circumstances, so are much like a Vertigo or Seeker weapon. My point is, as it stands, a lot of us use them only 1%-2% of the time. If they were restored to their true function, they would be used a bit more(especially in extremely painful quests like Ghola Fan or Shrieking Mines on Elite... as a lvl 10-11 group, mind, and mainly 10's).

Really. If you don't like Disruptors making things too easy, don't you just drop to something else?

Also, point remains. Red named monsters(yeah, they are all over Stormreach... I want my own Red Name by golly!) are completely immune to Paralyzing weapons.

GlassCannon
01-27-2008, 01:35 AM
And that would be the reason a few of us are either not calling them paralyzers or are asking that they be renamed as weapons of dazing.

Better yet "Temporary Minor Hindrance" weapons. Dodge and Luck Armor Class are null when Paralyzed, and should likely be when Dazed as well(yeah, I don't play PnP. I go by a mix of Common Sense and Hard Logic). Critical Hits should be valid in both instances, and therefore the current effect would not apply to "dazing" per se, but instead "minor paralysis", as the victim can still move and block freely as though not affected by anything.

GuitarHero
01-27-2008, 01:45 AM
Like most power 5 weapons i've gotten, i've equipped it, waded into battle and started swinging, and after a few moments, thought to myself, "Bah, this blows." Where as i promptly swap back to my +1 Icy Burst Khopesh of Pure Good, and kill it in a couple of hits. This holds true with vorpals, banishers, disruption, smiting, and paralyzers. If something gives me about a 1 in 20 shot at destroying or incapacitating something, i can generally do the job in 1 in 5 with a decent DPS weapon.

So i'm not /signed and i'm not /unsigned. I'm just gonna use DPS.

Naso24
01-27-2008, 05:49 AM
All of my fighting characters (paladin, fighter, ranger, wizard) use paralyzers.

My paladin only uses a paralyzer occasionally, since he is sword and board.

My fighter and ranger use them, typically in the off hand, for crowd control.

My wizard uses a paralyzing repeater light xbow.

I don't think they need to be changed. I would like to have the ability to affect the save of all specialty items through enhancement, or automatically by character level (+1 at 10, +2 at 13, +3 at 16, etc.). This would extend the usefullness of paralyzers, banishers, smiters, disrupters, and would maybe actually make slowburst and other never used weapons useful. Another alternative would be to introduce greater versions that have +4 DC.

Another thing I would like to see is more variety in combos. I have never seen a paralyzer of shattermantle, cursespewing, puncturing, or parrying.

If paralyzers induced auto crits, almost everything that is not immune would die in 3 seconds with a puncturing weapon in the off hand. It would be the same as things held or with flesh to stone, too much for an item that hits fairly often.

Mhykke
01-27-2008, 06:48 AM
/derail on


No comment on the paralyzer thing....but how bout we put vorpals back to how they used to be, vorpal on a crit! Talk about gamebreaking, vorpal scimitars were silly, SILLY I tells ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Draclaud
01-27-2008, 11:05 AM
I think it's ok that Paralyzers are what they are. It's kinda a substitute for hold monster (very poor substitue mind you). That being said Paralyzers work fantastic in an off-hand and ranged roll. Even iff they worked the old way, your barbarian prolly shouldn't be weilding one anyway. Currently the main way I see them being used effectively is in the hands of a ranger using a bow.

Souless
01-27-2008, 05:19 PM
nevermind....=\

/signed....why don't u dev's just make greater power 5's.....then maybe u could get a weapon that is useful all the time.......I'm tired of carring around 20+ weapons to account for mobs!

The Bytcher~

Shade
01-27-2008, 06:02 PM
And this is wrong, this is a rare and difficult pull to get and it should means something!


Rare pull? What game are you playing?
I've seen literally hundreds of paralyzers, there extremely common.

You can buy pretty much any type of weapon with paralyzing on it in the auction house for the lowest base price of the weapon or less soemtimes. The only ones that fetch a few more coin are the rare +3/4 varities, and even those aren't that hard to aquire. At most they go for 300Kpp - something any determined player can lootrun and aquire in less then a day.

Urguloth
01-27-2008, 06:58 PM
Well, on my TWF rogue, I have a paralyzing rapier in my main hand (I know, odd weapon to use, but only one I got) and always keep my +1 Cursespewing Dagger of Destruction in my other hand, never had a problem with nailing that 'partial hold' on much of anything.. OTOH, I typically swap out said rapier with other weapon types, but the paralyzer's the one I use due to my DPS going from "Hot Damn" to "Oh ****... look over there!" and back again.. but that's just me.

PhoenixRajoNight
01-27-2008, 11:02 PM
Ok, I admit the nerf was necessary a few months/weeks after launch as some people had a few of them when we were only max lvl 10 (tx to the Threnal mess), crushing about anything in the game in a blink. It was totally unbalancing, no doubt about that and you had to do something, which you did.

The subject comes back occasionnally, but I thought it was time for another reminder ;)

For people unaware of this change, when paralyzing a mob, we're suppose to automatically crit on a hit. Now, when you paralyze something, you just hit normally, kinda like: "You can't move?! I'll stab you in the heart! Doh, I'm too stupid, I can only hit your toes everytime..." :p:rolleyes:

Fact is, of the 5 ubers we can pull in the game, paralyzers are simply total junk! Except maybe VERY occasionnally in some good TWF combo, no one in his right mind ever use them now, unless you want to spend 3 hours to run a 15 minutes quest... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

And this is wrong, this is a rare and difficult pull to get and it should means something!

When mobs were having only 200 HPs and +5 saves, okay, I understand the need to balance stuff.

When they now have 1000 HPs and +20 saves to the point it would still takes 10-15 secs to take a mob down even with auto crits, I fail to see how unbalancing it is, especially as most mobs would have to roll a 1 on their save to be paralyze (DC 17 is a joke for most mobs!) and somes even have innate/permanent freedom of movement on now.

So I think you made the good decision to balance this more than a year ago.
Now that this is completely useless and unused by the majority of the community, maybe it'd be time again to take the good decision and put that back to what it is suppose to be? :o:cool:

Edit:

You can't para bosses.
You can't para constructs.
You can't crit undeads. (tho I think we can para them in DDO but it wouldn't change anything for them anyway)

For the rest, it won't be unbalancing, it would just be slower than W/P weapons.

Now the problem could be that there's too many para weapons around, which is kinda true. Maybe lower the DC 17 to DC 14 or 15?

Ive got a suggestion how bout when affected by a paralyzing weapon paralyzing weapons crit, and only paralyzing weapons.

I think it's a good middle, and makes using the weapon itself more worth it.

PhoenixRajoNight
01-27-2008, 11:05 PM
Rare pull? What game are you playing?
I've seen literally hundreds of paralyzers, there extremely common.

You can buy pretty much any type of weapon with paralyzing on it in the auction house for the lowest base price of the weapon or less soemtimes. The only ones that fetch a few more coin are the rare +3/4 varities, and even those aren't that hard to aquire. At most they go for 300Kpp - something any determined player can lootrun and aquire in less then a day.

Youve seen hundreds, not all of us have. Ive pulled 1 and it was on a kama, how worthless.

akla_thornfist
01-28-2008, 07:04 AM
i have 3-4 paralyzers in the bank dont use them anymore i think lev 10 was the last time i used them

twix
01-28-2008, 07:42 AM
I just sold 8 paras on auction for i think 30 k plat buyout a peice.I still have a few more i find them worthless and a waste of time.If your on argo and are dying for your first para send me a pm im sure ive got more laying around you can have one of the stupid things.Just dont come back trying to give it back to me there will be no refunds on paras :)Serious offer by the way but only for someone who doesnt have one yet.Not sure what kind i have but im sure ive got at least one or two more laying around.
Edit** this goes for banishers as well im sick of selling them to vendors they keep trying to sell them back to me.

Mr._Dna
01-28-2008, 07:49 AM
The only time I ever use mine is on my rogue when I know I'm gonna out DPS the fighters and draw aggro, and therefore get pummelled. These cases I usually just para from range. It's safe CC that won't cost the cleric any SP on my account. A paralyzer is a defensive weapon choice, and as it stands, a fairly effective one. They don't need to be rebalanced at all.

Shaamis
01-28-2008, 07:59 AM
I have a dual-khopesh user, with a +2 Paralyzing Khopesh, and a +1 Cursespewing Khopesh of Enfeebling.

When I need crowd control, I use those, but when I need DPS (i.e. good chance of dropping mobs in less than two seconds) I pull out my twin +5 True Chaos Khopeshes of Pure Good.

There is a time and a place for each set, just depends on the situation.

And I agree, paralyzers sounds sexy, but should be re-named as "Dazing" weapons, cuz thats what they DO. Daze. period.

TiberiusofTyr
01-28-2008, 08:08 AM
The PNP rules for paralyzers require a critical hit in addition to a DC 17 will save AND a spell resistance check to go off. It also does not specifically call out that the affected creature is helpless, which is the cue for the auto-crits.

llevenbaxx
01-28-2008, 08:24 AM
A para is a good weapon for the right situation. They offer a melee character a chance to offer some CC when their is no other option. My clr11/ftr1 loves using his +2para GS, often after a greater command to take care of any mobs that saved. This can sometimes eliminate any damage taken, making healing a piece of cake. It is a very handy weapon in its current form.

I agree with some that auto crits off this weapon would be too much, with the amount of these out there and the number of saves a mob must make to avoid being para'd, auto crits would be too much of an easy button imo. On elite high level quests, many of the mobs seem to laugh off this affect anyway.

Yaga_Nub
01-28-2008, 08:52 AM
How about this?

Instead of worrying about what to call the weapon and what effect it actually produces, let's ask the devs to actually fix the mobs to stay paralyzed (and held) first. AFTER this is done you can worry about everything else. Until the mobs quit healing themselves (and their buddies) while paralyzed or held then it's vorpal or massive dps ftw.

Can we get on board with this? Please? Show your support but sending all of your paralyzers to me and I will "store" them until such a time that the devs fix this game-breaking problem.

:)

Moragon
01-28-2008, 09:05 AM
You can't tell me that after I've made a successful hit to paralyze a critter that I shouldn't be able to do at least SOME additional damage. At the very least they should lose any shield or dexterity bonus to AC as well as some temporary lowering of their AC on the basis of not being able to move the shield into place and not being able to move period. They should also lose any benefits to evasion. I'm not saying that they should be treated as naked, but there is a difference between not being able to penetrate a natural creature armor class due to the toughness of its hide and not being able to find the chink in someone's armor for me to poke a dagger or short sword into, especially since they are not moving. An exposed neck is awfully hard to miss.

MysticTheurge
01-28-2008, 09:24 AM
You can't tell me that after I've made a successful hit to paralyze a critter that I shouldn't be able to do at least SOME additional damage.

Sure you do additional damage. When you hit them again. Which is easier cause they're not moving around and they're not attacking you.

DSL
01-28-2008, 09:24 AM
I think the mistake some people are making is in thinking that they should still be very useful weapons at level 14. At level 10, many players found them highly effective 50-75% of the time, and lament the fact that they are no longer quite so great. After all, do your level 14 characters still use plain +5 weapons, or a basic +4 flaming weapon? Would your level 14 paladin still use Retribution? It is to be expected that the tactics you use must change as your level progresses, and it should not be a surprise that once you're high enough level that these weapons begin to appear with some degree of frequency they inversely begin to become less effective.

Nevertheless, they remain useful in the right circumstances - do you take longer to kill enemies with them? of course, but when used properly you also take considerably less damage. In a well-balanced group with good healers who can keep up without this damage mitigation, paralyzers are less efficient overall for any melee-oriented character, even against enemies with poor will saves, but in a less balanced group, or if the party's healing capabilities are strained, a paralyzer can make a huge difference.

Otherwise, much confusion could have been avoided if they had been renamed "dazing" weapons, but this may be far more complicated, coding-wise, than is practical. If it helps, think of it as the artificers indulging in a little salesmanship, trying to hype a weapon property as being more than it really is to keep prices up.



How about this?

Instead of worrying about what to call the weapon and what effect it actually produces, let's ask the devs to actually fix the mobs to stay paralyzed (and held) first. AFTER this is done you can worry about everything else. Until the mobs quit healing themselves (and their buddies) while paralyzed or held then it's vorpal or massive dps ftw.

Can we get on board with this? Please? Show your support but sending all of your paralyzers to me and I will "store" them until such a time that the devs fix this game-breaking problem.

:)

From last week's WDA:



Weekly Development Activities

Monsters

[...]
NEW When stunned, Ogre Magi will be so stunned they can no longer move around.
NEW When dazed, monsters will be so dazed they can no longer attack.

Hopefully, this will clear up the issue, at least for paralyzer weapons.

Eladrin
01-28-2008, 09:44 AM
"Paralyzing" weapons in DDO are likely to remain in their current form as "dazing weapons" rather than conform to the description of Paralyzers in the Magic Item Compendium. They're much more functional as-is rather than as a once-per-day effect.

While we could rename them, I'm pretty sure that the drama that would ensue would be terrifying indeed, as many people would assume that the effects changed along with the name. I'll see that the effect description is updated to be more accurate, however.

philo
01-28-2008, 09:51 AM
Ok, I admit the nerf was necessary a few months/weeks after launch as some people had a few of them when we were only max lvl 10 (tx to the Threnal mess), crushing about anything in the game in a blink. It was totally unbalancing, no doubt about that and you had to do something, which you did.

The subject comes back occasionnally, but I thought it was time for another reminder ;)

For people unaware of this change, when paralyzing a mob, we're suppose to automatically crit on a hit. Now, when you paralyze something, you just hit normally, kinda like: "You can't move?! I'll stab you in the heart! Doh, I'm too stupid, I can only hit your toes everytime..." :p:rolleyes:


I dont know where you got this information. Paralyzers have NEVER been auto crit on a hit in DDO. It is not hold monster even though the effects used to look identical. They did change the graphical effect of paralyzer awhile back. Maybe you had a caster in your group at some point long ago and thought someone was paralyzing things when it was actually held.

When the lvl cap was ten paralyzers were NOT auto crit.

Yaga_Nub
01-28-2008, 10:00 AM
From last week's WDA:

<insert blah here>

Hopefully, this will clear up the issue, at least for paralyzer weapons.

This won't be the first time that the devs have said that this issue has been fixed.

MysticTheurge
01-28-2008, 10:03 AM
Paralyzers have NEVER been auto crit on a hit in DDO.

Yes they have.

rpasell
01-28-2008, 10:04 AM
Fact is, of the 5 ubers we can pull in the game, paralyzers are simply total junk! Except maybe VERY occasionnally in some good TWF combo, no one in his right mind ever use them now, unless you want to spend 3 hours to run a 15 minutes quest... :rolleyes::rolleyes:



Couldn't disagree more. As others have said before me, when my ranger paralyzes 6 or 7 mobs with 1 shot, that is powerful crowd control. I can think of nothing more powerful than you killing a mob while not taking any damage (mass hold monster? oops... maybe Mod7). I know it saves a lot of Cleric SPs.

GHOSTRYDER
01-28-2008, 10:15 AM
Probably the only feasible solution would be as someone else said. Make "greater" paralyzing, smiting, banishing, disruption...by adding something like 4 to the DC of each, and make them min lvl 14 or 16, whatever is fair. This way the original versions would still be good for their appropriate levels, and the greater ones would be somewhat more useful in higher end quests, because the problem with strengthening the originals is that they would be severely overpowered at lvl 10.

Maybe it could even be a crafting ritual? To me this would be the perfect solution. Raise the DC of your power 5 weapon, or any weapon that has a save DC by 2 per ritual, max 3 rituals or something? and add 2 to the min lvl for each one? This way we could strengthen our original ones as we level up and while not being overpowered for our level, they would at least stay somewhat useful as we go.

DSL
01-28-2008, 10:15 AM
I dont know where you got this information. Paralyzers have NEVER been auto crit on a hit in DDO. It is not hold monster even though the effects used to look identical. They did change the graphical effect of paralyzer awhile back. Maybe you had a caster in your group at some point long ago and thought someone was paralyzing things when it was actually held.

When the lvl cap was ten paralyzers were NOT auto crit.


Yes they have.

I will agree with MT here. I did not have one at the time, but I often ran with a ranger who had a paralyzing bow, and the ensuing auto-crits meant we made short work of nearly any quest. You are correct in that the graphic effect was changed later on, and there was a period where both Hold spells and paralyzer weapons still shared the same visual, making it frustrating when you thought you were about to auto-crit your target to find it was merely "dazed" instead.

kruggar
01-28-2008, 10:20 AM
yeap when the weapon and spell shared the same graphic effects i normally jumped into the first enmy with the blue ring around .. even with my caster :)

Mad_Bombardier
01-28-2008, 10:23 AM
"Paralyzing" weapons in DDO are likely to remain in their current form as "dazing weapons" rather than conform to the description of Paralyzers in the Magic Item Compendium. They're much more functional as-is rather than as a once-per-day effect.

While we could rename them, I'm pretty sure that the drama that would ensue would be terrifying indeed, as many people would assume that the effects changed along with the name. I'll see that the effect description is updated to be more accurate, however.Awesome. Thank you, Eladrin! :)


P.S. Maybe in the next batch of new avatars, you can add one for Chicken Little. ;)

Ustice
01-28-2008, 10:28 AM
Can we get the graphical effect to match that of Daze Monster? (Makes sense to me...)

Mad_Bombardier
01-28-2008, 10:33 AM
Can we get the graphical effect to match that of Daze Monster? (Makes sense to me...)Personally, I like the green and blue swirlies. Daze Monster looks too much like Stunning Blow/Symbol of Stunning.

Shaamis
01-28-2008, 10:38 AM
"Paralyzing" weapons in DDO are likely to remain in their current form as "dazing weapons" rather than conform to the description of Paralyzers in the Magic Item Compendium. They're much more functional as-is rather than as a once-per-day effect.

While we could rename them, I'm pretty sure that the drama that would ensue would be terrifying indeed, as many people would assume that the effects changed along with the name. I'll see that the effect description is updated to be more accurate, however.

This could be a grand time to make the change,and introduce real "Paralyzing" weapons as a level 16 minimum, 18th level for a +1 paralyzer for example.

Ciaran
01-28-2008, 10:46 AM
/So not signed

Paralyzers aren't all that hard to get (not, comparatively speaking, to how hard they used to be to get) and in my estimation they are more reliable than vorpals. They should absolutely not allow critical hits - that would be very unbalancing.

Consider that fighters with Stunning Blow drop even elite mobs with mega-HP before the stun timer wears off and Flesh to Stone is commonplace among arcanes and also allows for crits. Same thing for Hold Monster.

Paralyzers are great for crowd control and are by no means the "junk" of the "Big Five". I have a disruptor, a vorpal, a paralyzer and a smiter on my Paladin and of those I use the smiter and the paralyzer the most, followed by the disruptor and the vorpal. Even then, I'm using my DPS weapons more than anything else. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if the "Big 5" enjoy their prestige due to hype more than their power.

Josh
01-28-2008, 11:44 AM
Rare pull? What game are you playing?
I've seen literally hundreds of paralyzers, there extremely common.

You can buy pretty much any type of weapon with paralyzing on it in the auction house for the lowest base price of the weapon or less soemtimes. The only ones that fetch a few more coin are the rare +3/4 varities, and even those aren't that hard to aquire. At most they go for 300Kpp - something any determined player can lootrun and aquire in less then a day.

Spoken like a true p0w3rg4mmorz.

Dane_McArdy
01-28-2008, 11:47 AM
"Paralyzing" weapons in DDO are likely to remain in their current form as "dazing weapons" rather than conform to the description of Paralyzers in the Magic Item Compendium. They're much more functional as-is rather than as a once-per-day effect.

While we could rename them, I'm pretty sure that the drama that would ensue would be terrifying indeed, as many people would assume that the effects changed along with the name. I'll see that the effect description is updated to be more accurate, however.

So basically, the kind of paralyzing weapons we have in game are better then what you would get in paper?

Sweet.

MysticTheurge
01-28-2008, 01:10 PM
Can we get the graphical effect to match that of Daze Monster? (Makes sense to me...)


Personally, I like the green and blue swirlies. Daze Monster looks too much like Stunning Blow/Symbol of Stunning.

Maybe go the other way? Make Daze Monster look like the Paralyzer graphic?

Sevann
01-28-2008, 08:47 PM
Didn't read the entire post. But I always thought that they should have stronger versions of all of the available weapon effects. Magic weapons don't stop at +1 so there should be higher DC versions of weapons. Effects that normally work on a crit, now work on a hit, or more damage, or an aoe effect (splash damage from that acid mace), or a better version (paralize instead of daze). Some of the DC on some weapons make them near impractical. Your almost better off with a +1 flaming longsword.

LeLoric
01-28-2008, 11:27 PM
Yes they have.

nope never nada paralyzers were never auto crit in DDO had one within first month never auto crit

maybe if you used diplo on the chest you pulled it out of but that wouldnt be right cause everyone who got one got it from south threnal end reward not a chest

this is another DDO urban legend

GlassCannon
01-29-2008, 04:38 AM
/So not signed

Paralyzers aren't all that hard to get (not, comparatively speaking, to how hard they used to be to get) and in my estimation they are more reliable than vorpals. They should absolutely not allow critical hits - that would be very unbalancing.

Consider that fighters with Stunning Blow drop even elite mobs with mega-HP before the stun timer wears off and Flesh to Stone is commonplace among arcanes and also allows for crits. Same thing for Hold Monster.

Paralyzers are great for crowd control and are by no means the "junk" of the "Big Five". I have a disruptor, a vorpal, a paralyzer and a smiter on my Paladin and of those I use the smiter and the paralyzer the most, followed by the disruptor and the vorpal. Even then, I'm using my DPS weapons more than anything else. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if the "Big 5" enjoy their prestige due to hype more than their power.

You frequent various websites that have fancy names like "Trade4Game" and "MMObay" don't you? Paralyzers are a very rare pull, much like +2 Stat tomes.

Your opinions are those of a powergamer that has been on this game for over a year and a half. Try starting over brand new on another server. It isn't easy.

As for you using only the most powerful weapons in the game so often... try not using them sometime. Put them in the bank. Once they are safely tucked away in House Kundarak's Bank, go questing.

GlassCannon
01-29-2008, 04:40 AM
Yes they have.

I have personally seen them autocrit. MT is not incorrect.

My Join Date is bugged all to heck.

Solmage
01-30-2008, 12:13 PM
I have personally seen them autocrit. MT is not incorrect.

My Join Date is bugged all to heck.

...This is what I recall:

I'm in a group with this guy how had a nifty paralyzing bow, quite a long while ago (before velah I'm pretty sure) and everyone was oooing and ahhing about how uber that was, since he was paralyzing everything left and right. I was a wizard in that group. People start saying in party chat that the paralyzer is bugged because they don't autocrit always, only some of the times. I point out that that's because I'm using hold monster as well, so they are only autocritting when I cast that spell, which I'm also casting as quickly as I possibly can just for something to do. (Back before the hold monster spell nerf when it was the only spell worth casting, specially since vorpals autokilled anything held) .

They didn't get it. They kept complaining about this and I tried explaining it THREE times that the damn paralyzer was not REALLY paralyzing anything, that it was my bloody spell. I think maybe 2-3 people got it out of the full group. :(

Now, I'm not saying that during beta or maybe extremely early start of the game paralyzers did not autocrit, simply because I never had one during beta nor during the extremely early start of the game :p. But I will submit that it's just possible that inspite of what you remember, that you COULD be wrong. (Ie you were among those who didn't notice the silly wizard/sorcerer spamming hold monsters on your paralyzed targets :)) .

Personally I'd love a dev statement just to be perfectly certain, but I suppose if you tell me that you, alone without anyone else in the group, tested it exhaustively that you did indeed autocrit, I'll take your word for it.

Lastly, Eldarin, how about changing NEW paralyzers that drop to "dazers" together with an animation that does not imply they are immobilized, OR leave them as paralyzers and then remove their dex bonus to AC, a nice hefty penalty to reflex saves, and make them sneak attackable, to show that they're at least somewhat inhibited in movement.

Oh before I forget, any chance of making hold monster drop a critters dex to 0 so that it's reflex saves are non-existant? It's kind of ridiculous having a held ranger/rogue dodging fireballs... (when according to PnP they should be helpless and just merrily? awaiting a coup de grace)

Ciaran
01-30-2008, 12:58 PM
You frequent various websites that have fancy names like "Trade4Game" and "MMObay" don't you? Paralyzers are a very rare pull, much like +2 Stat tomes.

Your opinions are those of a powergamer that has been on this game for over a year and a half. Try starting over brand new on another server. It isn't easy.

As for you using only the most powerful weapons in the game so often... try not using them sometime. Put them in the bank. Once they are safely tucked away in House Kundarak's Bank, go questing.

Who do you think you are to insinuate that I purchase items/plat (a perma-ban offense)? Forum rules or no I'd rather respond and clear the air than just out and out report you as others probably would.

Did you even read my post or did you just take offense at your presumed interpretation of what I said and decide to go on the offensive?

Yes, I've been playing this game for almost two years and despite taking breaks here and there, I've played it frequently. So what? Where do you get off deriding my opinion based on that? The fact is items like paralyzers, disruptors, vorpals, etc are pulled much more now than they used to. How do I know? Well, because I've been playing for almost two years. Case in point - I did the reaver raid on elite last night and pulled a disruptor. I then did Madstone on normal and got a disruptor for my end reward. Two disruptors in one night. Uncommon, certainly but by and large you see more of the big "5" than you used to.

So let's review what I actually said, and try to set aside whatever axe it is you have to grind or pet peeve or whatever and try to comprehend.

I said: "Paralyzers aren't all that hard to get (not, comparatively speaking, to how hard they used to be to get)" key phrase is bolded. I'm not saying they are easy to get, or even necessary to have, but, relative to how it used to be they are certainly easier to get. Especially during the +1 loot weekends which is where all of my paralyzers came from.

Second, to address your snarky statement:

"As for you using only the most powerful weapons in the game so often... try not using them sometime. Put them in the bank. Once they are safely tucked away in House Kundarak's Bank, go questing."

Did you miss where I said:
"Even then, I'm using my DPS weapons more than anything else. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if the "Big 5" enjoy their prestige due to hype more than their power."?

The fact is I rarely actually use any of them. The paralyzer is situational, the vorpal I only really use on a lark, and the disruptor plays second fiddle against undead compared to my +2 ghost touch mace of greater undead bane, which was given to me by a guildy. My +4 flaming khopesh of pure good, Carnifex and Cloudburst get more use than any of the "big 5". At any rate, why wouldn't I use these weapons if I have them? Did you see me saying "Oh, the game is too easy, the game is too easy" somewhere or something? I'm baffled why you'd even bring this up...

To get back on topic, the question is whether or not paralyzers should auto-crit once they paralyze a mob. I still say no, no matter how rare they are or aren't. That is excessively powerful and unbalancing. If you wish to debate that, than by all means, let's debate that, but certainly don't attack me and try to dismiss my opinion as being a powergamer who frequents item and plat-selling websites. That's just completely uncalled for.

At the end of the day, play the game as much as you want and however you want. Allow me to do the same without name-calling and insinuations.

DSL
01-30-2008, 02:57 PM
You frequent various websites that have fancy names like "Trade4Game" and "MMObay" don't you? Paralyzers are a very rare pull, much like +2 Stat tomes.

Your opinions are those of a powergamer that has been on this game for over a year and a half. Try starting over brand new on another server. It isn't easy.

As for you using only the most powerful weapons in the game so often... try not using them sometime. Put them in the bank. Once they are safely tucked away in House Kundarak's Bank, go questing.


[...]Yes, I've been playing this game for almost two years and despite taking breaks here and there, I've played it frequently. So what? Where do you get off deriding my opinion based on that? The fact is items like paralyzers, disruptors, vorpals, etc are pulled much more now than they used to. How do I know? Well, because I've been playing for almost two years. Case in point - I did the reaver raid on elite last night and pulled a disruptor. I then did Madstone on normal and got a disruptor for my end reward. Two disruptors in one night. Uncommon, certainly but by and large you see more of the big "5" than you used to.

So let's review what I actually said, and try to set aside whatever axe it is you have to grind or pet peeve or whatever and try to comprehend.

I said: "Paralyzers aren't all that hard to get (not, comparatively speaking, to how hard they used to be to get)" key phrase is bolded. I'm not saying they are easy to get, or even necessary to have, but, relative to how it used to be they are certainly easier to get. Especially during the +1 loot weekends which is where all of my paralyzers came from.

Second, to address your snarky statement:


Did you miss where I said:
"Even then, I'm using my DPS weapons more than anything else. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if the "Big 5" enjoy their prestige due to hype more than their power."?

The fact is I rarely actually use any of them. The paralyzer is situational, the vorpal I only really use on a lark, and the disruptor plays second fiddle against undead compared to my +2 ghost touch mace of greater undead bane, which was given to me by a guildy. My +4 flaming khopesh of pure good, Carnifex and Cloudburst get more use than any of the "big 5". At any rate, why wouldn't I use these weapons if I have them? Did you see me saying "Oh, the game is too easy, the game is too easy" somewhere or something? I'm baffled why you'd even bring this up...

To get back on topic, the question is whether or not paralyzers should auto-crit once they paralyze a mob. I still say no, no matter how rare they are or aren't. That is excessively powerful and unbalancing. If you wish to debate that, than by all means, let's debate that, but certainly don't attack me and try to dismiss my opinion as being a powergamer who frequents item and plat-selling websites. That's just completely uncalled for.

At the end of the day, play the game as much as you want and however you want. Allow me to do the same without name-calling and insinuations.


I have to mostly agree with Ciaran here... I've been playing this since pre-order, but am not a powergamer, with what is probably an overall average less than 10 hours/week of playtime. I have personally pulled at least a half dozen paralyzers, 4 smiters, 4 banishers, 3 vorpals, and 1 disruptor. Perusal of the AH and anecdotal evidence suggests that my pulls follow the overall frequencies, and despite the fact that I do not do farming loot runs, I have more than 1 spare paralyzer. There is no question in my mind that they are relatively common as far as high-end weapons go - probably almost as common as "holy burst". Of course, since the paralyzing quality's effectiveness is much less dependant on the weapon's type or other qualities than say, Holy Burst, nearly any paralyzer remains useful.

I am one who gets annoyed at some posters' tendency to hyperbolize item frequency and trivialize the efforts needed to gain some high-end items, but I don't see this as the case here: Paralyzers quite simply are now "not that hard to get", especially since I have frequently seen them up for auction for amounts in the tens of thousands of pp, rather than hundreds. I wouldn't expect someone who's only been in the game for 3 months to necessarily have one, but someone who's been regularly playing with several capped characters for 3 months very probably had pulled at least one.

Zenako
01-30-2008, 03:14 PM
Yah, but how come most of the 5 I have pulled are things like Kama's or Great Crossbows of Disruption RR halfling!!!. Yah right. I have quite a few now, from pulls, guild kindness and some AH wins (using plat from selling "worthless" loot to vendors and the like). I still need a lot more for many of my characters. I still have 0 vorpals and only 1 melee disrupter. A bunch of blunt Smiters (which need 20s to crit...sigh) like Maces and clubs.

Are they easy to find. Nope. Can you really farm them. Nope. Will they show fairly often in end rewards on high end quests. Yup. Do a lot of GH and Orchard and you will see some drop eventually.

Ciaran
01-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Yah, but how come most of the 5 I have pulled are things like Kama's or Great Crossbows of Disruption RR halfling!!!. Yah right. I have quite a few now, from pulls, guild kindness and some AH wins (using plat from selling "worthless" loot to vendors and the like). I still need a lot more for many of my characters. I still have 0 vorpals and only 1 melee disrupter. A bunch of blunt Smiters (which need 20s to crit...sigh) like Maces and clubs.

Are they easy to find. Nope. Can you really farm them. Nope. Will they show fairly often in end rewards on high end quests. Yup. Do a lot of GH and Orchard and you will see some drop eventually.

Exactly.

The first vorpal I ever pulled was a few months ago out of Chamber of Raiyum Elite, actually. Before that I had one given to me by a guildie. The last vorpal (and third one I've ever owned) was an end reward from some GH quest or another, I think. +1 vorpal greatsword of backstabbing, RR: Halfling.

RR: Halfing is like a sick joke of the devs, I'm certain of it! :p

Zenako
01-30-2008, 03:27 PM
Exactly.

The first vorpal I ever pulled was a few months ago out of Chamber of Raiyum Elite, actually. Before that I had one given to me by a guildie. The last vorpal (and third one I've ever owned) was an end reward from some GH quest or another, I think. +1 vorpal greatsword of backstabbing, RR: Halfling.

RR: Halfing is like a sick joke of the devs, I'm certain of it! :p

For sure...I mean if it was a Dagger or Shortsword maybe, but huge 2Handed Weapons and Great Crossbows...eeeKKK!

Now the Greatsword of Smiting I pulled with my Paladin looks like a gosh darn 6 foot Bowie Knife. Now THIS is a KNIFE!!!

Ciaran
01-30-2008, 03:37 PM
For sure...I mean if it was a Dagger or Shortsword maybe, but huge 2Handed Weapons and Great Crossbows...eeeKKK!

Now the Greatsword of Smiting I pulled with my Paladin looks like a gosh darn 6 foot Bowie Knife. Now THIS is a KNIFE!!!

LOL!

Vorpal two-handers are awesome for Raging barbarians - you're still doing good DPS and hitting regularly plus you have the instant death on a 20 going for you as well.

Smiting slashers are good for Slashing spec'd characters - the only two slashing smiters I've pulled have been RR and one of them was Axiomatic to boot! ;)

LOUDRampart
01-30-2008, 03:52 PM
The big 5 are situational weapons. In the right situation they can make an encounter go smoothly/quickly.

When soloing, two of my favorite combos are: para/para and para/vorpal. Very fun with both.

This said, I too would like to see paralyzers brought back to their former glory.