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View Full Version : How about some tank love



osirisisis
01-21-2008, 09:36 PM
Tank stock is way down on the market :(

1. In my experance Tanks actual take more work to play. In most cases with my caster Im rangeing with my spells from the back line. With my tank im locking on, attack, chaseing, relocking on, triping, running to get healed hopefully, and getting targeted mores by enemy casters then the back line players. (some players say this is enjoyable since your constantly doing something but after 1 year of main tank play its turning in to more work the enjoyment.

2. DPS. I watch the numbers that come off my fire walls and my other spells, add in one shot finger and PK and some crowd control and bottom line I think my caster is much, much, MUCH more efficent then my tank.

3. It used to 2-3 tanks per party now over the last 4 months ive seen 2-3 casters per party, the tank has sloped big.

4. Try Running ghosts with 5 tanks 1 cleric. Then run it with 4 casters 2 clerics.

5. Some say that a caster spell points running out even the playing feild between caster and tank. I play a wizard which has less points then a sorc and with most of the time I have plenty of spell points for my quests. If not there always DVS and pots.

6. Most soloing of high level quests R done with a caster. ( I know a rouge name brenna who does some soloing :) but he uses alot of scrolls and the point is that its still base in magic)

7. AC has drop big on the market.

8. Banishing has drop huge on the market and I predict will be almost obsuleet and it goes the way of wonding, maldrit and cursespewing.

9. Vorpal has taken a really small hit and is one of the few things still supporting the tank.

10. Disruption in maybe more then half of all cases is less effective then Greater Undead Bane.........

11. Displacement, stoneskin, falselife, could be more effective then +5 mith sheild FP high dex AC gear ect.....



Resolves (some small and not that dramatic changes that could give some tank love)

1. hitdice cap on banishing needs to be removed.

2. Paralized mobs should not get Dex bounce to there AC

3. Death block should be removed from the game mobs and players. But negitive energy spells absorb trinkets and jewlery inhanced

4. Disruption DC to 20

5. More weapons sets

6. Stop the genration of mindless weapons/items/armor ect. loot from the loot table:Example +2 amoixant burst great axe of greater Lawful outsider bane lvl12 (this is a wild card and should improve game play on any subject)

7. Curse spewing DC 24

8. Acid bursting intro

9. Decrease mobs attack damage but increase there attacks per round.

10. All 2d6 3d6 and 4d6 crit bursting mutiplers goes to 1/d10 2/d10 3/d10

11. Increase sheild blocking DR. and AC.

Missing_Minds
01-22-2008, 08:36 AM
once again... time to rehash the same things over and over.

a) the game is based on D&D PnP, therefore caster suck at low levels and rule the high levels. This is even more evident by the numbe of mobs we must face.
b) the only true way to bring casters back down to a "manageable" level is to bring back in friendly fire. Trust me, you don't want that.

Now... your suggestions.

1) I don't know. Perhaps make a Greater Banishing attribute with a higher DC/hit dice? It is a hard call which to do.
2) Actually, it should be much worse than that.


A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

Sneak attacks, critical hits, etc. should be happening. But then what would the point of stunning blow be? So in game balancing, I agree with your suggestion, but it should not allow for crits or sneak attacks.

3) I'll pass on this one.
4) See 1)
5) I'd like 10 weapon sets myself.
6) We have crafting coming, so lets wait and see.
7) See 1)
8) Devs are a bit afraid of this one. There are now only 2 official weapons with acid burst on them.
9) Then the balance will be we will be sucking more damage over all. Pass.
10) I do not agree with this at all.
11) We have feats to do this, but I don't know if it needs to be upped at all. Perhaps a new enhancement line for the fighter and paladin classes.

Kreaper
01-22-2008, 08:52 AM
I don't know how it works in PnP but I agree with you on what you said. Low level casters stink and melee rules. Then levels 7-10/11 they get much better and casters and melee are much more balanced. Then from 10/11 through, well for every level after that, casters rule and melee are luggage carriers. Yeah, that sounds fair and balanced. We rule the six levels that take no time at all to gain.

I think that we should be more balanced all the way through. But what do I know. I never played PnP and , frankly, couldn't care less how it is there.

Borror0
01-22-2008, 08:57 AM
Low level casters stink

False. Untwinked low level casters stinks.

Get your sorcerer Greater Potency Scepter II-VI and own the quests.:D

The_Phenx
01-22-2008, 09:54 AM
Ive said it before... Ill say it again.

Most wizard and sorc builds are IMHO dps builds... I have one, its easy I know.

But there are ways to do crowd control builds/buffmasters etc.

Just like there are ways to build massive dps fighters/barbarians and high ac tanks jack's of all trades etc.

My fighter has no problem dishing out gobs of damage to a single target.

Barbs are excellent at dishing out massive aoe glancing blow damage.

Yes a disintegrate can hit for 900 pts on a crit... but in the time it takes to cast and re-set my fighter gets approx 10 attacks or more fully boosted, which on a good mix of crits etc can hit 600-1000 pts of damage, while at the same time not having to be in fear of being obliterated.

If you feel your not doing enough damage try a high crit range greatax barb. Or a twf kopesh fighter with a bloodstone full ranks of fighters speed boost madstone boots a and a haste :). Especially since now at 16th it will grant another 3 attacks per round.

Yes casters are uber... yes firewalls kick ass... but so does a +4 icy burst pure good kopesh :).

The_Ick
01-22-2008, 11:35 AM
This is one of the things that i actually side with Turbine on. :eek: :D

I think the melee vs. caster balance is about were it should be for a D&D based game. A lot of higher level quests are easier with multiple casters, but doable without. Just like a lot of quests are easier with rogues, but doable without.

I have multiple of both class types and while casters may rule the orchard because of extra fire damage all it takes is 1 mob with a big club and high spell resistance and they will be running for their lives. Everything is situational and i think Turbine has done a pretty good job of having different classes shine in different quests. I even think they have done a good job of balancing wizard and Sorcs because with every new quest the ability to change spells at every shrine becomes more important.

I am looking forward to see how the new mod effects everyones opinion because the devils are immune to fire & cold damage and there are a lot of animals that can't be charmed (i think). Might even things out a little more.

Either way the party build has the ability to change the way you do a lot of quests, and i think that although it can be frustrating, it is one of the things that makes this game so much fun. After all there are lots of ways to skin a cat...


*** No Cats where harmed in the writting of this reponse ***

The_Phenx
01-22-2008, 11:45 AM
I am looking forward to see how the new mod effects everyones opinion because the devils are immune to fire & cold damage and there are a lot of animals that can't be charmed (i think). Might even things out a little more.
*** No Cats where harmed in the writting of this reponse ***

Aye I see lots of disintegrates and ball/chain lightnings in the future, maybe a lil searing light?

I know my fighter will be +5acid pg and +4 holyburst

Mad_Bombardier
01-22-2008, 11:51 AM
I am looking forward to see how the new mod effects everyones opinion because the devils are immune to fire & cold damageLooking at the Monster Manual, I see only one Devil that is immune to cold (and he's not immune to Fire). Many have cold resist 10 and Immunity to Poison and/or Fire.

binnsr
01-22-2008, 11:58 AM
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/eldamir/DDO/tanklove.jpgTanks need loving too!


Someone to tell them how neat their Thermal Imaging System and Reactive Armor is ..
Someone to give them a little pickmeup when break a track..

Taojeff
01-22-2008, 12:08 PM
Tank stock is way down on the market :(

Resolves (some small and not that dramatic changes that could give some tank love)
First let me say that casters are unbalanced. Not here to argue that point.
1. hitdice cap on banishing needs to be removed.

Just add Greater Banishing with a higher DC and Hitdiice.

2. Paralized mobs should not get Dex bounce to there AC

Yeah, and should get auto sneak attacks also

3. Death block should be removed from the game mobs and players. But negitive energy spells absorb trinkets and jewlery
inhanced.

Um, no.

4. Disruption DC to 20

Just introduce Greater Disruption

5. More weapons sets.

Yes, and make the Inventory UI bigger, give the option for more bag slots.

6. Stop the genration of mindless weapons/items/armor ect. loot from the loot table:Example +2 amoixant burst great axe of greater Lawful outsider bane lvl12 (this is a wild card and should improve game play on any subject)

Yeah. This should be pretty high on the list. At least maybe have the third level of favor for the Twelve (120), give out the ability to use the eldritch shrine to break down weapons to components for crafting

7. Curse spewing DC 24

Introduce Greater Cursespewing

8. Acid bursting intro

9. Decrease mobs attack damage but increase there attacks per round.

No, its find and reflects there CR. If you are getting damaged to much, get a heavy fort item like the rest of us.

10. All 2d6 3d6 and 4d6 crit bursting mutiplers goes to 1/d10 2/d10 3/d10

Crits are fine. Barbarians have no trouble critting alot. Fighters need the weapon master prestige class (+1 to crit range and +1 to crit multiplier, does not stack with any of crit enhancements. Also implement Greater Critical for fighters only.

11. Increase sheild blocking DR. and AC.
Fix Mobility to give +2 ac when moving. Yes, shield DR should be adjusted upwards, but not to much.



See red above

The_Phenx
01-22-2008, 12:15 PM
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/eldamir/DDO/tanklove.jpgTanks need loving too!


Someone to tell them how neat their Thermal Imaging System and Reactive Armor is ..
Someone to give them a little pickmeup when break a track..

OMFG ROFL... lol

Borrigain
01-22-2008, 01:21 PM
.....Someone to tell them how neat their Thermal Imaging System and Reactive Armor is ..
Someone to give them a little pickmeup when break a track..

OMG, he said "break track". You just gave me the willies. brrrrr.......

Ask any tanker, nothing sucks more than breaking track in the rain.

Always made sure to check my Brad's track tension twice before rolling. And still threw one in the mud one time. God, that was a hellish nightmare at 0200.

Thanks for the scare,
Borr.

osirisisis
01-23-2008, 11:09 AM
once again... time to rehash the same things over and over.

a) the game is based on D&D PnP, therefore caster suck at low levels and rule the high levels. This is even more evident by the numbe of mobs we must face.

The Key word here is based. This is not PnP its DDO. A starting point and now with many players and fourms and the internet we poll and improve on this bases.... if we stick to PnP rules there theres no room for growth and improvement with experance.

b) the only true way to bring casters back down to a "manageable" level is to bring back in friendly fire. Trust me, you don't want that.

I sure there are muti true ways to improve this issue.... your statment seems very limited. I would say the idea makes the game more realistice tho.

Now... your suggestions.

1) I don't know. Perhaps make a Greater Banishing attribute with a higher DC/hit dice? It is a hard call which to do.

This would still leaves many quests where banishing doesnt work. at the 12 to 16 range unless U made greater banishing +1 a lvl 12
Check dismissal and banishing spells do they have a hit dice limitation? If they dont should the weapon?


2) Actually, it should be much worse than that.

worse? as in more damage or less damage?


Sneak attacks, critical hits, etc. should be happening. But then what would the point of stunning blow be? So in game balancing, I agree with your suggestion, but it should not allow for crits or sneak attacks.

stunned, paralized, asleep, all = cant move ... How can U have Dex if your not moving?

3) I'll pass on this one.

4) See 1)

See my reply to one

5) I'd like 10 weapon sets myself.

I think this is a given

6) We have crafting coming, so lets wait and see.

I dont understand what crafting has to do with it. I run 2X Fully loaded 2wf khopesh tanks with about everything U could have minus +5 icy/fire burst khopesh of pure good. So lets say I could craft these weapons.... My DPS would still be crums compaired to Fire wall.....

7) See 1)
....

8) Devs are a bit afraid of this one. There are now only 2 official weapons with acid burst on them.

As im watching my firewalls do about 4 or more times of DPS per second then my tank....

9) Then the balance will be we will be sucking more damage over all. Pass.

whats the differance between a mob that does 20-40 per hit with 2 attacks per round vs a mob that does 10-20 per hit with 4 attacks per round.... for starters DR is more effective and casters R more prone to getting hit.... right now a tank problely has X2 or more attack per round over the average mob.

10) I do not agree with this at all.

Look here fact for you. Holy has droped on the market vs elemental weapons....... Holy needs some help Ask the average tank player if he want a LVL12 +2 holy burst of pure good? or a LVL 12 +4 flaming burst of pure good? Id take the latter

11) We have feats to do this, but I don't know if it needs to be upped at all. Perhaps a new enhancement line for the fighter and paladin classes.

Y should we have to take a feat. Whos going to spend a feat on sheild block. Lets Take a poll R U going to take improved crit or sheild block.......Tuffness or sheild block... 2 handed fighting or sheild block.....

osirisisis
01-23-2008, 11:11 AM
I don't know how it works in PnP but I agree with you on what you said. Low level casters stink and melee rules. Then levels 7-10/11 they get much better and casters and melee are much more balanced. Then from 10/11 through, well for every level after that, casters rule and melee are luggage carriers. Yeah, that sounds fair and balanced. We rule the six levels that take no time at all to gain.

I think that we should be more balanced all the way through. But what do I know. I never played PnP and , frankly, couldn't care less how it is there.



I would guess that 75% of the time the game is play with level 10 or higher toon. I know in my case 85% of the time i spent on this game Im playing a toon that is +12 lvl

osirisisis
01-23-2008, 11:12 AM
False. Untwinked low level casters stinks.

Get your sorcerer Greater Potency Scepter II-VI and own the quests.:D

lets not forget web and fireball

Beherit_Baphomar
01-23-2008, 11:17 AM
Every time this is brought up we get the "casters are godlike at higher levels in PnP dude" arguement.

This isnt PnP. This is an MMO.

Do you actually want to see groups made up solely of casters/clerics? Would you like to see nothing but warforged wizards running around?

Its just not healthy for the game, imo.

osirisisis
01-23-2008, 11:18 AM
Ive said it before... Ill say it again.

Most wizard and sorc builds are IMHO dps builds... I have one, its easy I know.

But there are ways to do crowd control builds/buffmasters etc.

Just like there are ways to build massive dps fighters/barbarians and high ac tanks jack's of all trades etc.

My fighter has no problem dishing out gobs of damage to a single target.

Barbs are excellent at dishing out massive aoe glancing blow damage.

Yes a disintegrate can hit for 900 pts on a crit... but in the time it takes to cast and re-set my fighter gets approx 10 attacks or more fully boosted, which on a good mix of crits etc can hit 600-1000 pts of damage, while at the same time not having to be in fear of being obliterated.

If you feel your not doing enough damage try a high crit range greatax barb. Or a twf kopesh fighter with a bloodstone full ranks of fighters speed boost madstone boots a and a haste :). Especially since now at 16th it will grant another 3 attacks per round.

Yes casters are uber... yes firewalls kick ass... but so does a +4 icy burst pure good kopesh :).


Any time U want to run pop or tbf with your tank against my jack of all magic wizard on kill count for O lets say 100k plat per run your on.

Look what ever ammount of damage your putting out and how good U think it is. just take a look at the kill count.... I know I play both

osirisisis
01-23-2008, 11:19 AM
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/eldamir/DDO/tanklove.jpgTanks need loving too!


Someone to tell them how neat their Thermal Imaging System and Reactive Armor is ..
Someone to give them a little pickmeup when break a track..

great pic !!!!!!!

Emili
01-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Ive said it before... Ill say it again.

Most wizard and sorc builds are IMHO dps builds... I have one, its easy I know.

But there are ways to do crowd control builds/buffmasters etc.

Just like there are ways to build massive dps fighters/barbarians and high ac tanks jack's of all trades etc.

My fighter has no problem dishing out gobs of damage to a single target.

Barbs are excellent at dishing out massive aoe glancing blow damage.

Yes a disintegrate can hit for 900 pts on a crit... but in the time it takes to cast and re-set my fighter gets approx 10 attacks or more fully boosted, which on a good mix of crits etc can hit 600-1000 pts of damage, while at the same time not having to be in fear of being obliterated.

If you feel your not doing enough damage try a high crit range greatax barb. Or a twf kopesh fighter with a bloodstone full ranks of fighters speed boost madstone boots a and a haste :). Especially since now at 16th it will grant another 3 attacks per round.

Yes casters are uber... yes firewalls kick ass... but so does a +4 icy burst pure good kopesh :).

If that's a TWF build you deal 7 swings in that time or 2.2 swings a sec... if a THF 4 or 1.6 swings a sec, wizard cast + cooldown is under 4 seconds as I just tested it to make sure... almost half that on a sorc... Now consider this, the cooldown on one spell is nothing since the other spells are fireable withing 1/2 a second... ie. I can cast PK, FOD, Disintigrate, Scorc ray, Fireball and cone of cold all within seven seconds. A max'd sorc with an excellent player can cast rings around your swinging especially since you need to be close to mob and they do it from range. Btw... the pride of my characters are full dps melee capable of reaching 40+ damages (non-crit) before any weapon plus's (breaching 200's on high crits) 34 str standing unbuffed fighters before 3x rage, 30 str barb before 3x rage, 28str pally... all feated to dish out heavy damages, but I know when a high DPS caster is in the group they will take a backseat and sole job is to take initial agro and attempt to maintain it... Heck even a moderately spec'd caster pours out heavy DPS. In a group if the caster feels like casting CC and letting the melee have some fun ... then they do ... but for most quests it's the caster who is in control of who's doing what.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2008, 11:41 AM
How about some tank love .

I've never heard of this tank class but I like the idea, I want to play a tank in DDO.

My first choice would to be an M1A2 http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/abrams3.html

Maybe we could talk Haywire into making some for us to play.

osirisisis
01-28-2008, 08:15 AM
I've never heard of this tank class but I like the idea, I want to play a tank in DDO.

My first choice would to be an M1A2 http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/abrams3.html

Maybe we could talk Haywire into making some for us to play.

O its this kinda borning hack and slash bashier who gets hit alot and normally does save to well unless its palli
U feal kinda important when U have to smite some big bad construct for the party but other then that with your mostly a grunt with little to no chance of solo anything high level. O did I leave out lauf at in pvp.

Can we say TANK LOVE