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View Full Version : Scroll price and availability



SkyCry
01-21-2008, 06:57 PM
As we all know, some scrolls were removed from the vendors, since they were overused.
Well, I would like to propose a different solution: same thing as Raise Dead scrolls - make them expensive!

To be precise, I would like scroll/wand price to depend on the following:
Spell level, as currently, but also...
Duration of the spell depends on CL (caster level)? No = costs more
Spell requires SR (spell resistance) check? No = costs more
Spell requires a save? No save = costs more; One save = cost unaffected; Multiple (i.e., PK) or continuous saves (i.e., Hold Person) = costs less
Spell strength (e.g., damage) depends on CL? No = costs more
Scroll includes/substitutes material component = costs more


Say each of the mentioned property either doubles the cost or halves it (just an example), here's what we will have:
(price modifier is in brackets)
Fireball: instant (x2), passes SR (x2), requires a save (x1), damage depends on CL (x1), no component (x0.5) = 2x base price for this level spell
Hold Person: duration (x0.5), SR check (x0.5), continuous save (x0.5), fixed spell strength (x2), no component (x0.5) = 1/8 base price (useless spell without proper caster level!)
Dimension Door: fixed duration (x2), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), fixed spell strength (x2), no component (x0.5) = 8x base price (pretty good as a scroll, was 32x back when it required a special component)
Phantasmal Killer: instant (x2), SR check (x0.5), 2 saves (x0.5), fixed spell strength (x2), no component (x0.5) = 1/2 base price (i wouldn't use a scroll of that...)
Raise Dead: instant (x2), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), fixed strength (x2), normal component (x1) = 16x base price (really good as a scroll)
Resist Energy: duration (x0.5), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), strength depends on CL (x0.5), no component (x0.5) = 1/2 base price (who wants 10 resist scrolls anyway?)
Symbol of Fear: fixed duration (x2), SR check (x0.5), save (x1), fixed strength (x2), normal component (x1) = 2x base price
Wall of Fire: duration (x0.5), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), damage partly depends on CL (x1), normal component (x1) = 2x base price
Stoneskin: duration (x0.5), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), strength depends on CL (x0.5), special component (x2) = 2x base price (casted stoneskin still more effective and lasts longer)


Like I said, doubling and halving the cost is just an example - it can be anything (+100% base price, e.g., 5 "no" is +500%) and different parts can have different weight (duration +200%, SR check +50%, save +300%, component = + its price). However the main point stays: more effective as a scroll/wand, the higher the price of the scroll/wand.

With that implemented, there will no longer be a reason not to sell any of the scrolls - just like Raise Dead scrolls are currently being sold, but at a higher price.

captain1z
01-21-2008, 08:16 PM
Complicated.


Doesnt mean its without merrit........... but its very complicated and subject to interpretation.

I havent even fully wrapped my mind around what Im looking at....... I do get the basic idea tho.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 10:58 PM
the potential damage and all the modifiers you mention are already built into the spell level. Therefore nothing else is needed but spell level and caster level, and I believe that's how it is priced now.

Strakeln
01-21-2008, 11:26 PM
The higher the prices are, the more Qwijymart can save you!*

*- on Khyber, at least.

Aranticus
01-21-2008, 11:29 PM
The higher the prices are, the more Qwijymart can save you!*

*- on Khyber, at least.

^---- ya hes that good!

SkyCry
01-22-2008, 05:04 AM
I understand it's complicated, however it's only complicated for those who have to implement it and those guys are smart + they only need to do it once anyway.

Normal users like you and me will just see the different price for different scrolls.

What it solves: some scrolls being better than others, when spells don't depend on how good a caster casts them; vendors can now sell all scrolls, but at different prices

What it doesn't solve: some spells being much better than other due to weak AI or just an abundance of the monsters they are good against (lots of undead for Wall of Fire + it's really really good against wraiths and similar as they are impossible to target).

MysticTheurge
01-22-2008, 07:40 AM
What it doesn't solve: some spells being much better than other due to weak AI or just an abundance of the monsters they are good against (lots of undead for Wall of Fire + it's really really good against wraiths and similar as they are impossible to target).

There's no reason your formula couldn't include that. Give it a x2 (or more) cost for being a persistent area of effect (which is where the AI suffers) and another x2 for affecting a lot of enemies.

I'd personally prefer all scrolls over 3rd level or so to be removed from the vendors, but this could be a half-decent alternative.

peavey
01-22-2008, 08:01 AM
There's no reason your formula couldn't include that. Give it a x2 (or more) cost for being a persistent area of effect (which is where the AI suffers) and another x2 for affecting a lot of enemies.

I'd personally prefer all scrolls over 3rd level or so to be removed from the vendors, but this could be a half-decent alternative.

I like your idea but if they did remove all those from the vendors they should allow wizards to buy spells that are not available in scroll form from the trainers for whatever the price of the scroll/inscription mats would have normally cost, and have them directly transfered into the spellbook. Just a thought though, but if they did remove all spells over 3rd level just think of the outcry from that one. I remember what happened last time /sigh.

parvo
01-22-2008, 12:18 PM
A better solution is to remove all scrolls from vendors. Let the natural economics of the game determine what scrolls are worth on the auction. Simple and effective.

parvo
01-22-2008, 12:24 PM
I like your idea but if they did remove all those from the vendors they should allow wizards to buy spells that are not available in scroll form from the trainers for whatever the price of the scroll/inscription mats would have normally cost, and have them directly transfered into the spellbook. Just a thought though, but if they did remove all spells over 3rd level just think of the outcry from that one. I remember what happened last time /sigh.

Bah...players have been crying since the six-sider was invented. Back in the day, they kept comming back for their weekly PnP beatings at the hands of evil DMs. They'll come back for more DDO too. Players are notorious for wanting it easy but needing it hard.

arcticwolf666
01-22-2008, 12:32 PM
ARE YOU MAD!!!

What do you do that gets you so much money that you can afford all those scrolls like its nothing?? I play a cleric that can barely afford a few raise dead scrolls at a time, when I run out, I sell to get a couple more, and people get mad because I cannot raise them anymore. How can you afford so much that it even merits removal from vendors or increase in price? I would like to know before I cannot afford any scrolls at all, and attempt to stock up now thanks to you :mad:
Why do people like to see things that help people get removed anyways? Are all of you that uber that you do not need anything? If so, please play and keep to yourselves. I am having fun even if I barely get by. Don't make the game impossible.

MysticTheurge
01-22-2008, 12:35 PM
and people get mad because I cannot raise them anymore.

Just another reason to remove the scrolls from the vendors all together.

Then there'd be no expectations that you have a huge stack of them just stuffed into you back pocket for when your run out of SPs.

kingfisher
01-22-2008, 12:36 PM
Players are notorious for wanting it easy but needing it hard.


nice. this should be a t-shirt.

Stonebread
01-22-2008, 12:47 PM
Players are notorious for wanting it easy but needing it hard.


nice. this should be a t-shirt.

QFT

parvo
01-22-2008, 02:19 PM
Just another reason to remove the scrolls from the vendors all together.

Then there'd be no expectations that you have a huge stack of them just stuffed into you back pocket for when your run out of SPs.

Exactly. It takes some guts but good DM's know, if the players aren't begging for mercy, something's wrong.

Ghaldar
01-22-2008, 02:46 PM
The higher the prices are, the more Qwijymart can save you!*

*- on Khyber, at least.

Qwijymart is most awsome!!!! he keeps Fragnorock in repair pots and scrolls i hand out to fleshies....so they don't get mad at me for no shield using Warforged style!

Mercules
01-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Exactly. It takes some guts but good DM's know, if the players aren't begging for mercy, something's wrong.

I don't know about that... Begging for mercy sounds a little harsh and a little too "Me VRs Them". The group is there to have adventures and tell stories.

I did, however, once accidentally kill a whole party. I gave them endless hints in my description of the creature and expected them to decide to run. They took the stance of, "Our DM wouldn't face us with a challenge we couldn't match, would he?" One died, and then another, and finally they all lay dead. Since one of them had a prophesy about him being the wielder of a certain weapon and what would happen if he failed, I sat down and described what happened over the years to come including the total domination of the world by the forces they were meant to fight.

From that point on they figured that if something looked scary, maybe it was for a reason. It added a whole new level of fun to the game for them to have to decide if they should... or should not... face a certain foe.

captain1z
01-22-2008, 09:41 PM
I don't know about that... Begging for mercy sounds a little harsh and a little too "Me VRs Them". The group is there to have adventures and tell stories.

I did, however, once accidentally kill a whole party. I gave them endless hints in my description of the creature and expected them to decide to run. They took the stance of, "Our DM wouldn't face us with a challenge we couldn't match, would he?" One died, and then another, and finally they all lay dead. Since one of them had a prophesy about him being the wielder of a certain weapon and what would happen if he failed, I sat down and described what happened over the years to come including the total domination of the world by the forces they were meant to fight.

From that point on they figured that if something looked scary, maybe it was for a reason. It added a whole new level of fun to the game for them to have to decide if they should... or should not... face a certain foe.

My players never make it so far..................

most recently they went to a "wagon Dock", its like a dry land seaport for wagons, they were going to question a merchant about a stolen item that he was said to have purchased. Naturally he didnt like being questioned so he "encouraged" the players to leave by introducing them to 2 dozen of his hired hands and their pet clubs.

The players started to leave when someone thru a rock a the elf.......... the elf took it personally and swung his sword at one of the workers.
The party was out numbered and surrounded and was quickly clubbed into submission.

The groups rogue was clubbed silly 1st as he tried to escape
The party barbarian was backed into a wagon and clubbed repeatedly as he screamed for help from any gaurds that may be nearby
The elf dodged and parried and twisted out of grips/ holds as he was surrounded by 8 club swinging attackers but held his own
When the gaurds arrived everybody pointed the finger at the downed rogue and barbarian with their sword weilding elf companion
and because the party had no good reason for being at the docks they were thrown in the town jail for 3 days and fined 1 silver each.

The barbarian swore revenge upon his release but once free and within eye sight of his club weilding advisaries he decided to instead leave town...... after 1 week of travel the party questioned the courage of the barbarian. In an effort to prove himself, the barbarian located a bandit camp and attacked but was beaten and nearly killed. He then fell upon 2 of his own daggers, killing himself to avoid capture.

As sad tale really as many speculate it was his intent to be killed in battle......... evidenced by the fact that he had buried his gold and a few items the day before.

I sense a re-roll.

Aranticus
01-22-2008, 09:49 PM
ARE YOU MAD!!!

What do you do that gets you so much money that you can afford all those scrolls like its nothing?? I play a cleric that can barely afford a few raise dead scrolls at a time, when I run out, I sell to get a couple more, and people get mad because I cannot raise them anymore. How can you afford so much that it even merits removal from vendors or increase in price? I would like to know before I cannot afford any scrolls at all, and attempt to stock up now thanks to you :mad:
Why do people like to see things that help people get removed anyways? Are all of you that uber that you do not need anything? If so, please play and keep to yourselves. I am having fun even if I barely get by. Don't make the game impossible.

are you in Khyber? if yes allow me to show you cabal/feast runs. no scrolls needed, no wands and on a perfect day, no heals as well...... 25 min 6 chests 2 rewards. my cleric never runs out of money. all the loot gets mailed to my bard who sells them and then in return passes supplies to my cleric. on my cleric, i have 200 heal scrolls 100 raise dead minimum

dragonofsteel2
01-22-2008, 09:58 PM
As we all know, some scrolls were removed from the vendors, since they were overused.
Well, I would like to propose a different solution: same thing as Raise Dead scrolls - make them expensive!

To be precise, I would like scroll/wand price to depend on the following:
Spell level, as currently, but also...
Duration of the spell depends on CL (caster level)? No = costs more
Spell requires SR (spell resistance) check? No = costs more
Spell requires a save? No save = costs more; One save = cost unaffected; Multiple (i.e., PK) or continuous saves (i.e., Hold Person) = costs less
Spell strength (e.g., damage) depends on CL? No = costs more
Scroll includes/substitutes material component = costs more

Say each of the mentioned property either doubles the cost or halves it (just an example), here's what we will have:
(price modifier is in brackets)
Fireball: instant (x2), passes SR (x2), requires a save (x1), damage depends on CL (x1), no component (x0.5) = 2x base price for this level spell
Hold Person: duration (x0.5), SR check (x0.5), continuous save (x0.5), fixed spell strength (x2), no component (x0.5) = 1/8 base price (useless spell without proper caster level!)
Dimension Door: fixed duration (x2), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), fixed spell strength (x2), no component (x0.5) = 8x base price (pretty good as a scroll, was 32x back when it required a special component)
Phantasmal Killer: instant (x2), SR check (x0.5), 2 saves (x0.5), fixed spell strength (x2), no component (x0.5) = 1/2 base price (i wouldn't use a scroll of that...)
Raise Dead: instant (x2), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), fixed strength (x2), normal component (x1) = 16x base price (really good as a scroll)
Resist Energy: duration (x0.5), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), strength depends on CL (x0.5), no component (x0.5) = 1/2 base price (who wants 10 resist scrolls anyway?)
Symbol of Fear: fixed duration (x2), SR check (x0.5), save (x1), fixed strength (x2), normal component (x1) = 2x base price
Wall of Fire: duration (x0.5), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), damage partly depends on CL (x1), normal component (x1) = 2x base price
Stoneskin: duration (x0.5), no SR check (x2), no save (x2), strength depends on CL (x0.5), special component (x2) = 2x base price (casted stoneskin still more effective and lasts longer)


Like I said, doubling and halving the cost is just an example - it can be anything (+100% base price, e.g., 5 "no" is +500%) and different parts can have different weight (duration +200%, SR check +50%, save +300%, component = + its price). However the main point stays: more effective as a scroll/wand, the higher the price of the scroll/wand.

With that implemented, there will no longer be a reason not to sell any of the scrolls - just like Raise Dead scrolls are currently being sold, but at a higher price.


Funny part is that would not even use the scrolls unless I am a bard. The change to duration and the real garbage damage they not worth it at current cost. I have bunch blade barrier scrolls and firewalls on my bard and I can tell its no big deal the damage they do its like last resort. Taking the DD scrolls out gets goofier as the levels go up, its easy enough to save the spot for the spell. None of this stuff would be game breaking to bring back. Funny part enervation scrolls or ten times better then any that stuff against none SR creatures since there is no saves on it.

Mercules
01-22-2008, 10:27 PM
My players never make it so far..................

most recently they went to a "wagon Dock", its like a dry land seaport for wagons, they were going to question a merchant about a stolen item that he was said to have purchased. Naturally he didnt like being questioned so he "encouraged" the players to leave by introducing them to 2 dozen of his hired hands and their pet clubs.

The players started to leave when someone thru a rock a the elf.......... the elf took it personally and swung his sword at one of the workers.
The party was out numbered and surrounded and was quickly clubbed into submission.

The groups rogue was clubbed silly 1st as he tried to escape
The party barbarian was backed into a wagon and clubbed repeatedly as he screamed for help from any gaurds that may be nearby
The elf dodged and parried and twisted out of grips/ holds as he was surrounded by 8 club swinging attackers but held his own
When the gaurds arrived everybody pointed the finger at the downed rogue and barbarian with their sword weilding elf companion
and because the party had no good reason for being at the docks they were thrown in the town jail for 3 days and fined 1 silver each.

The barbarian swore revenge upon his release but once free and within eye sight of his club weilding advisaries he decided to instead leave town...... after 1 week of travel the party questioned the courage of the barbarian. In an effort to prove himself, the barbarian located a bandit camp and attacked but was beaten and nearly killed. He then fell upon 2 of his own daggers, killing himself to avoid capture.

As sad tale really as many speculate it was his intent to be killed in battle......... evidenced by the fact that he had buried his gold and a few items the day before.

I sense a re-roll.

We had a Swordsman character in GURPS(classless system). He had a code of honor. The GM decided to bring that into play and a fop challenged the character to a dual after some perceived slight. Knowing he would likely mop the floor with said fop he is debating about trying to keep his honor intact but letting the fop think he had a chance. The dual starts and the PC pinks his foe with the tip of his sword but lets him push the blade away at the last second. The fop rolls a 4 on 3d6, a critical success. Normally you get no defense but our house rule is that a critical success on a defense roll would do it. Instead the PC rolls a critical failure, fails first his consciousness roll and then his roll to live since the crit did double damage tripled for piercing attack to the vitals and far more than his - Health value. Dead PC and a GM wishing he had rolled behind a screen.

We all laughed about that and then remembered how deadly GURPS combat can be, and taking on random people in pointless combat is silly.

SkyCry
01-23-2008, 05:30 AM
Just another reason to remove the scrolls from the vendors all together.

Then there'd be no expectations that you have a huge stack of them just stuffed into you back pocket for when your run out of SPs.

I agree with this reasoning - removing scrolls would certainly have this kind of effect. (I can already imagine Shrieking Mines becoming the single most run quest and sudden increase in good-aligned characters.)

But while we're at it, why not remove wands too, so no one expects clerics to spend a fortune on wands too? For example best arcane wands are usually of increased CL (e.g., Wand of Resist Energy (11th level)) and you can't buy those at a vendor anyway.


One might argue that with this a lot of quests will have to be rebalanced, but perhaps those level 14 quests on elite weren't meant to be done by a group of level 10 characters anyway...

MysticTheurge
01-23-2008, 07:43 AM
But while we're at it, why not remove wands too, so no one expects clerics to spend a fortune on wands too? For example best arcane wands are usually of increased CL (e.g., Wand of Resist Energy (11th level)) and you can't buy those at a vendor anyway.

Yep. Wands above second level spells and potions above first level spells also ought to leave the vendors too.

GlassCannon
01-23-2008, 07:57 AM
Instead simply decrease the effectiveness of Haggle, lower the Plat Cap to the 500,000 mark and maybe lower certain item costs for certain classes at a percentage, making the items bound for the discount(untradeable, unmailable).

Solved.

New Players with less than 5,000 gold rejoice.

SkyCry
01-24-2008, 03:50 AM
Just plain increasing cost is certainly a bad idea, I agree. However what about decreasing cost for most and increasing cost for select few? (In my example it is done by manipulating with base price.) It'll actually lower the average cost.

However as other stated, one should consider the whole economy side if this solution - there are already problems that people expect clerics to waste money on wands and similarly there will be expectation to have certain arcane scrolls ready. For that point we need to consider 2 things: These scrolls already were previously in the game and we know what it was like. Now they'll be more expensive, so there will be even less expectation for a caster to have them, than previously. Some scrolls are already overpriced (Raise Dead, Resurrection), so basically this is already in the game. I simply suggest to apply this approach to other scrolls as well, as I hate when some Divine casters can use certain spells as scrolls by paying more, while a wizard can't find a scroll just to scribe a spell.