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Quarion
01-21-2008, 10:27 AM
Weekly Development Activities

In QA
These items are currently in testing for release in Module 6.

General

The Level Cap has increased to 16!
Player characters that have been rendered unconscious but have stabilized will slowly regenerate health until they wake up at one hit point. Warforged auto-stabilize and repair to one hit point after one minute of remaining inert. Humanoid characters will regenerate at a rate of one hit point every six seconds, starting thirty seconds after stabilization.
You can now use the command “/resloc” to find out where you will resurrect when you die.
Favored Enemy: Orc can now be taken during character generation by rangers.
Fixed an issue where other player's movement may appear to stutter
You will now be notified when a player picks up your soulstone with a message and alert: "Your soulstone has been picked up by <name>."
Torel the Wizard can no longer sit and spin while using rest shrines.
An adjustment has been made to ranged combat to prevent players from missing the target when it is moving in certain ways.
When struck by a critical, the visual effects will only play once a second instead of each time, to help with the frame rate.
Traps are nastier on Hard and Elite, and more forgiving on Solo difficulty. Detection and disable difficulties are unchanged.
We have added support for the Logitech G15 Keyboard LCD displays.
The Mail UI now has two separate lists of mail. Confirmed mail - Mail sent by the game (ie auction mail), alt characters, current friends, current guildmates, and admins. Unconfirmed mail - Mail from players who are not currently on your friends list or in your guild. There is also a "Delete All" button which allows you to delete all unconfirmed mail.
You can no longer send mail to character who have you squelched.
Rest Shrines on landscape, solo, and normal difficulties are now reusable. Landscape and Normal difficulty rest shrines reset after fifteen minutes, Solo difficulty rest shrines reset after five minutes.
The new Mail UI tab labels will indicate if they contain unopened mail (with an asterisk) or mail with an attachment (with an exclamation point).
The Twelve has unearthed a pair of ancient altars that exhibit the curious ability to bind objects to their owner when the item is placed upon the stone with several Khyber Dragonshard Fragments. One such stone has been placed next to the Lordsmarch Bank in the Marketplace, the other is just outside the base of the Twelve's tower. These devices are known to have other VAST and MYSTERIOUS powers, which will be revealed after further research. [You can now bind any object you desire by using the Stone of Change. Place your item within the device along with a stack of Khyber Dragonshard Fragments and activate the device. Items with higher minimum level requirements to equip require more Khyber Dragonshard Fragments to bind.]
NEW Additional altars have been discovered in various locations. It is suspected that these altars are powerful tools to create new items and upgrade the effects on these items. More research is needed to learn just exactly what these altars can do and how they work.
NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.UI Improvements
Bringing up the enhancement panel will now remove players from mouse-look mode.
Examination tooltips now appear when hovering over the text of an item in a "choose your rewards" window and chests.
Guild login and logout messages will now show up in the chat window. You can turn these messages off via a new option under the UI tab in the Options UI.
On the Create Party Panel:
A button has been added allowing the player to clear the selected quest.
If a player has made changes to their party criteria and closes the panel, they will be asked if they wish to apply the changes before the menu is closed.
The "Update my party" button will no longer be ghosted initially. Clicking this button will auto-select the "Advertise my party" check box.
When clicking in the 3D world after typing in the chat window, the game will now recognize your change in focus, while also preserving the text you typed.
Bringing up the enhancement panel will now remove players from mouse-look mode.
Critical spell hits now show up larger in the floaty text.
New party commands:
/party invite <name>
/party dismiss <name>
/party promote <name>
/party leave
/party disband
/party raid
/party normal
The release button in the death dialog will now be grayed out for 3 seconds after death to prevent accidentally releasing.
The summary page of advancement will now show an abbreviated version of an advanced ability score rather then using the elements from the ability selection page.
The Bid and Buyout buttons in the auction house now have confirmation dialog boxes.
NEW The user interface (UI) can now be re-skinned and customized by editing or applying user created skins.
NEW Blocking damage reduction is now displayed in the inventory (equipped weapons) panel.
NEW Stats that change when you are moving (Such as attack stats) will now be displayed on the fly in the inventory/equipped weapon window to prevent confusion. You'll now see the numbers changing when you start and stop moving.
NEW Confirmation dialogs should correctly put your mouse in cursor mode if you are in t-mode.Shopping

Added a "Sell Gems" button to the sell window of vendors which buy gems. Hitting this button will sell all unsecured gems in your inventory as well as all gems contained in all of your gem bags.
Collectible and gem bags will now appear in the Miscellaneous category of the auction house.Spells

New Spells
Polar Ray
Evocation [Cold]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Deals 1d6 per caster level (max 25d6) cold damage to an enemy with a ray of freezing ice and air.
Sunburst
Evocation [Light]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
A globe of searing radiance explodes silently to blast targets for 6d6 of light damage in addition to permanently blinding them. Oozes and Undead take 1d6 per caster level damage. A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half and negates the blindness. Light fearing undead may be instantly destroyed by this spell
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 8
Casts Cure Critical Wounds on multiple targets. Positive energy is channeled to heal critical wounds of allies or damage undead for 4d8 +1 per caster level (max +20). Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.
Firestorm
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Clr 8
A storm causes an area to become shot through with sheets of roaring flame, causing 1d6 per caster level fire damage to targets in its area. (Max 20d6)
Horrid Wilting
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Deals 1d6 per caster level (max 20d6) damage to living targets by evaporating moisture from their bodies. Deals 1d8 per caster level (max 20d8) damage to water subtype outsiders and plants.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Level: Clr 8
Casts Inflict Critical Wounds on multiple targets at range inflicting 4d8 +1 per caster level (max +20) damage or healing undead a like amount. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half.
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
At your touch, enemies feel an irresistible urge to dance and begin doing so, complete with foot shuffling and tapping. The spell makes it impossible for the enemy to do anything other than caper and prance in place.
Shout, Greater
Evocation [Sonic]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Emits an ear-splitting yell that deafens and deals 10d6 sonic damage and stuns targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the stun.
Summon Monster VIII
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Summons a bezekira to fight for you for a brief time. Casting this spell locks out casting any other Summon Monster spell for 8 minutes.
Trap the Soul
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Forces a creature's life force and its material body into a gem on a failed Will save. Although this essentially 'kills' the target, it is not a death effect and functions on creatures such as undead (but not most constructs). This spell requires a khyber dragonshard as a special material component, and can affect creatures of up to 30 hit dice.

(Note: The quality of the gem required varies on the hit dice of the targeted creature. Three versions of this spell exist using a spell selector, appropriate for creatures of up to 10 HD, 20 HD, and 30 HD.)
Seek Eternal Rest
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 2, Pal 1
Grants a +4 Sacred bonus to level for the purposes of turning undead.
Bards gain access to the following existing spells:
Cat's Grace, Mass; Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass; Eagle's Splendor, Mass; Fox's Cunning, Mass; Heroes' Feast; and Summon Monster VI
Power Word: Blind
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
One creature with 600 or fewer current hit points is blinded.

150 or fewer HP: Blinded permanently
151 to 300 HP: Blinded for minutes
301 to 600 HP: Blinded for rounds
Power Word: Stun
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
One creature with 450 or fewer current hit points is stunned.
150 or fewer HP: Stunned for a long duration
151 to 300 HP: Stunned for a moderate duration
301 to 450 HP: Stunned for a short duration
Merfolk's Blessing
Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Grants one ally per caster level a +10 enhancement bonus to Swim, plus one per two caster levels.
Ram's Might
Transmutation
Level: Rgr 1
Enlarges the hands of the caster, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.
Master's Touch
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Range: Personal
The caster gains proficiency with all simple and martial weapons for one minute per caster level. General Spell Changes
A Paladin's Aura of Courage will no longer cause various other spell effects to repeat over and over. The Aura of Courage bonus has also been changed to a Sacred Bonus to Will Saves vs. Fear, and as such, will stack with Morale effects.
Acid Rain now uses a normal "attack spell" animation instead of the one associated with summons and lingering clouds.
Touch of Idiocy no longer permits Heighten, as it has no save.
Stone to Flesh can no longer be cast on "self", since statues are rarely capable of casting spells.
Cure <various> Wounds spells, including the Mass Cures, can no longer be Heightened as Clerics can already freely cast the higher level versions of those spells and are the ones most likely to use them as offensive spells against Undead. Note that the Heal spell is unaffected by this change as there are more circumstances under which you may wish to Heighten the spell.
Freedom of Movement will now protect against the Crippling weapon effect. This change will include some monsters with wards that are similar to Freedom of Movement.
Self targeting spells should no longer ever be "blocked".
The Holy Sword spell now creates Holy Burst weapons rather than Holy weapons.
Shocking Grasp can no longer be Heightened, as it has no save.
Silver Flame members that cast Restoration on people in taverns will now properly always remove negative levels with the spell.
After further testing, Charm Monster Mass has been temporarily removed from this release for further development.
NEW Fire Trap will no longer take Maximize and Empower as metamagic options
NEW Divine Favors description has been updated to better explain when it gives additional bonuses
NEW Master's Touch and Knock no longer share a recast timer with the Jump spell. (This applies to Sorcerers only. Other casters were unaffected by this bug.)
NEW Icons for Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Alley now feature the creature that is summoned by the spell
NEW The spell effect icon for Potions of Wonder ability Wondrous Power will no longer be an image of tasty ham. Sorry Kargon.
NEW Spell exchange costs have been standardized at (Character Level ^2) * Spell Level * 100 gold pieces.
NEW Halt Undead now uses the correct save DC.Skills, Feats, & Abilities


New Feats
Force of Personality
Prerequisite: Cha 13
Benefit: Picks the highest modifier between your charisma and your wisdom
modifier for your will saves.
Insightful Reflexes
Prerequisite: Int 13
Benefit: Picks the highest modifier between your intelligence and your dexterity modifier for your reflex saves.
Over sized Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Str 12, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When wielding a one handed weapon in your off-hand, you take penalties for fighting with two weapons as if you were wielding a light weapon in your off-hand. (Essentially, you gain the +2 bonus for wielding a light weapon in your off-hand even if it’s not a light weapon.)
Special: Fighters may select Over sized Two-Weapon Fighting as one of their Fighter bonus feats.
Diehard
You automatically stabilize when incapacitated. Level 3 Rangers gain the Diehard feat for free. General Feat Changes:

Improved precise shot is now a toggle feat and can be performed with untargeted shots.New Abilities

Barbarians now possess a new ability in the feats section of their character sheet. "Dismiss Rage" can be used at any time to prematurely end their barbarian rage. Note that you will still be subject to fatigue from your rage, and it functions only on the barbarian class ability - you cannot dismiss any other rage like effects.
New Rogue Special Abilities:
Skill Mastery: A rogue with this ability gains +1 to all skills. This ability may be taken multiple times.
Defensive Roll: Grants the rogue a chance to cheat death when critically injured. When below 20&#37; health, a rogue with Defensive Roll has a chance equal to their total Reflex Save Modifier of taking half damage from melee or ranged weapon attacks, and negating any special effects associated with the attack as if the rogue were blocking. Defensive Roll is subject to the same armor and encumbrance restrictions as the Evasion class skill.
Slippery Mind: Grants the rogue a second chance to avoid harmful enchantments. Upon failure of a Will Save vs. Enchantments, the rogue immediately receives a second attempt at the saving throw.
Rogues now can choose which special ability (Improved Evasion, Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind, or Skill Mastery) they desire when they reach levels 10, 13, or 16 rather than having one automatically assigned to them. In addition, Rogues can now swap these special abilities for others as if they were feats.General Skills, Feats & Abilities changes

Crippling strike now occurs with ranged sneak attacks using bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons.
The intimidate skill has always factored in the size of your target. You get a bonus when attempting to intimidate creatures that are smaller than you and get a penalty against creatures that are larger than you. The description for this skill now explains this.
Greater two weapon fighting now enables an extra left hand attack hook while standing, making it more consistent with mobile attacks.
The deepwood sniper enhancement is an active feat that lets you let loose your next shot with an arrow that has +4 to hit, +1 to critical threat range, and +1 to the critical damage multiplier. This ability can be performed every 10 seconds and works in conjunction with many shot, improved precise shot, and whatever bow/arrow effects are in play.Enhancements

New Enhancements
Ranger/Elven Arcane Archer I:
Prereqs: Ranger 6 or Elf 9, +6 Base Attack Bonus, Weapon Focus: Point Blank Shot, any one of: Elven Arcanum I, Bard Music of Energy I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, or Mental Toughness
Benefit: Grants 20 spell points and the ability to conjure +1 returning arcane arrows at will. Also grants the ability to make a ranged attack as a True Strike with a +20 bonus to hit.
Ranger Arcane Archer II:
Prereqs: Ranger level 9, Ranger Arcane Archer I.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +2 enhancement bonus.
Ranger Arcane Archer III:
Prereqs: Ranger level 12, Ranger Arcane Archer II.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +3 enhancement bonus.
Ranger Arcane Archer IV:
Prereqs: Ranger level 15, Ranger Arcane Archer III.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +4 enhancement bonus.
Ranger Arcane Archer V:
Prereqs: Ranger level 18, Ranger Arcane Archer IV.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +5 enhancement bonus.
Elven Arcane Archer II:
Prereqs: Elf level 11, Elven Arcane Archer I.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +2 enhancement bonus.
Elven Arcane Archer III:
Prereqs: Elf level 14, Elven Arcane Archer II.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +3 enhancement bonus.
Elven Arcane Archer IV:
Prereqs: Elf level 17, Elven Arcane Archer III.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +4 enhancement bonus.
Elven Arcane Archer V:
Prereqs: Elf level 20, Elven Arcane Archer IV.
Benefit: Your conjured arrows now possess a +5 enhancement bonus.
Ranger Deepwood Sniper I:
Prereqs: Ranger 6, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Ranger Hide 2, Ranger Move Silently 2, Ranger Spot 2.
Benefit: Grants a +1 bonus to Hide, Move Silently, and Spot. Also grants the ability to take an aimed 'sniper shot' with a +4 bonus to hit, +1 critical threat range, and +1 critical threat multiplier.
Ranger Tempest I:
Prereqs: Ranger 6, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack.
Benefit: Grants a stacking bonus to dual wield attack speed and a +2 bonus to armor class while dual wielding. General Enhancement Changes

Many enhancement descriptions have been clarified to reduce confusion about their benefits.
The Bard enhancement "Music of the Dead" is now trainable at level 6 instead of level 7.
The Rogue: Way of the Assassin active abilities now have an increased chance of applying their poison effects on sneak attacks. (33% chance per hit, rather than 25%)
Reduced the cost of Paladin Improved Lay on Hands and Rally enhancements.
Each rank of Paladin Extra Remove Disease grants two additional uses of Remove Disease instead of one.
At Ranger levels 9, 12, 15, and 18 or Elf levels 11, 14, 17, and 20, additional enhancements are available to increase the power of your conjured arcane arrows to +2/+3/+4/+5.
NEW The Ranger Extra Empathy line of enhancements will now grant extra uses of Improved Wild Empathy as well.Items

For all normal chests, players who are not in the dungeon at the time the chest is opened with not get loot from the chest and will not be able to have loot re-assigned to them. For all raid chests, players who are not in the dungeon at the time the raid boss is killed will not have loot generated for them and cannot have loot re-assigned to them.
An issue with thrown weapons not dealing appropriate damage and not having appropriate to hit rolls has been fixed.
Bashing damage from the shield Ward of Undeath is now flagged as Good.

Blessed Cold Iron Khopeshes, Blessed Cold Iron Mauls and Blessed Cold Iron Heavy Picks will now always be sold at the Divine Reagent vendor in Feather Fall's Apothecary. House Jorasco.
A problem with UMD devices becoming unequipped when logging in has been fixed.

When an item is unequipped while a character is offline, (because a spell wore off, for example.) the item will no longer appear as if it is still equipped.
Corrected issues with Everbright effect and weapons made of special materials (adamantine, mithril etc.). These weapons should all now have full time protection from item wear caused by rust and acid.
Critical hit effects on weapons were preventing in certain rare circumstances sneak attack damage from applying. This has been fixed.
Darkweave Armor and Darkleaf Breastplates can now be found in treasure chests throughout Xendrik.
Various barkskin potions have been added to the random potion treasure drops.
Rapid reload now affects repeating crossbows.
Great Crossbows now deal 2d8 damage, with a 18-20/x2 critical threat range. This should be retroactive to all existing Great Crossbows.
Reducing a character's Charisma will now only reduce that character's Turn Undead Attempts if the current number of attempts is greater than the new maximum number of attempts.
Items that are bound no longer take permanent damage when repaired. The chance for unbound items to take permanent damage when repaired has been cut in half.
NEW Returning Throwing Weapons are now repairable and sellable to brokers.
NEW The description of the effect of Lesser Silver Flame Potions now indicates they heal 100 hp
NEW There are now bags available for eldritch device ingredients, which work similarly to the collectible bags.NPC's

Zawabi now checks to see if he can give you the demon queen raid quest before taking your items.
A banker has been added to Zawabi's Refuge.Monsters

A troglodyte in Freshen the Air had not been scaling correctly with the difficulty level. This has been fixed.
Beholders will no longer emit any beams while petrified.
Charmed and summoned monsters now make noise detectable by other monsters as if they were players.
Creatures will now only display "Zzz's" if they are magically compelled to sleep.
Elemental arrows fired by monsters are now less flashy, but should no longer bog your client down when encountered in large numbers.
The hill giant seers in Madstone Crater now have an immunity to charm affects because in certain circumstances being charmed could break their scripting. Now, they can't be charmed and will always pay attention to when the enchanter controlling them dies and will then become allies.
Fixed a case where some of Whisperdoom’s Daughters would sometimes not spawn, thereby preventing progress.
Further reduced the rate at which incorporeal enemies phase on hit to about a third of the rate it was at before.
Monsters now have a better understanding of the world around them know what to do around doors and some area of effect spells.
Monsters will no longer fight over each other when they're all trying to get to the same place at the same time.
Made various improvements to patrolling creatures.
Starting in Module 6, the hard and elite monsters in new quests at very high level (CR 16 and up) will be getting tougher as their starting CR rises. Hard will become increasingly more difficult and elite will become a real challenge. Be prepared to start facing some particularly tough bosses on elite CR 16 and higher quests.
NEW When stunned, Ogre Magi will be so stunned they can no longer move around.
NEW When dazed, monsters will be so dazed they can no longer attack.
NEW Stone Giants now no longer use bows for ranged attacks and instead throw boulders. They also have a new short range AOE boulder attack
NEW Monsters won't play their special death animations for elements they do not take damage from.
NEW Doomsphere's are now immune to Critical hits as they are undead creatures.
NEW Stone Golems should no longer sometimes lurch about oddly when they begin to attackQuests

Caverns of Korromar
The "Source of Evil" will now be found when entering the Beholder's room, instead of when approaching him.
Euphonia's Challenge
The Wizard's Stones can no longer be deleted.
Vault of Night
Each player is now allowed 1 one the gifts from the Laughing Knives
Gianthold: Cabal for One
A crafty Hobgoblin trap is now a bit easier to find. This does not mean it’s any easier to disable. Note also that on higher difficulty levels, it may still be incredibly difficult to spot.
Hazadills Shipping Warehouse:
Fixed an unclimbable ladder.
Prison of the Mind
Improved the pathing of the Arcane Oozes in this quest.
Abandoned Keep
The quest will no longer care if Coyle enters the room before you do.
Prison of the Planes
The battery receptors will now still give their battery to a player who happen to be encumbered. This item will go into an overflow slot of the players inventory is full.
Tomb of the Tormented
Some of the Sarcophagi had no sound, and have now been fixed.
Search for the Ancient Daggers
Replaced two missing Sarcophagi in the dungeon.
Ruins of Gianthold
Two-Stone's chest is now unlocked
Sands of Menechtaruun
Female drow will now have purple skin and white hair, always.
Black Mausoleum
The drop gate in the dragon's cell will now permanently close after 10 seconds.
The Black Abbot Raid
The three trials contained within the Black Abbot raid no longer need to all be completed in a single teleport pass.
The Black Abbot will now send you back to the three trials if you have not yet beaten them, rather than simply continuing the battle immortal.
NEW The Black Abbot should no longer hit you with telekenesis while you are in another room.
Orchard of the Macabre:
NEW The Zombie Train carts are now selectable
The mystery of Delera's Tomb
NEW On rare occasion a wraith that had Turn Undead on it would flee through a closed gate, (like the undead chicken that it is) preventing the quest from being finished. All such gates now automatically open after two minutes so that you can complete the quest.
NEW In Delera's Reliquary, the optional underwater gates work again Other Changes:

Multi-class paladins and barbarians will now always be able to respec their feats without crashing their client.
Using the "Sell Gems" button will now properly report your earnings instead of stating that you didn't sell anything.
Fixed issues with greater teleport.
Fixed a series of stuck spots in the Flesh Maker quest that players were being pushed into by some clever air elementals.
Fixed an issue that would cause two secret doors in low road to occasionally break.
In the Maze of Madness, a certain trap's control box has been rotated so that it faces forward.
The optionals relating to disabling the traps now work in Missing in Action.
Detaching currency from auction mail will now properly auto delete the mail.
Some items which were not marked as magical, such as a Minor Kinetic Lore Scepter, will now have the blue magical item background on it's icon.
Spells should now appear in proper alphabetical order in spell lists.
The touch of the Avatar of Jubilex will no longer make Warforged sick to their stom... err... uhh inner workings.
Sound Changes:
Sound transitions in the Necropolis will no longer be so harsh.
Landscape music will now continue playing after engaging in combat in the Necropolis Plains.
Silent areas in Tempest's Spine will now have music and ambiance.
There are now fewer places in the public areas of Gianthold to get stuck.
Fixed a trap in Foundation of Discord that wouldn't turn off if you disabled the control box.
Path to Madness will give favor again
The exit way points on several of the dungeons now correctly indicate they go the Necropolis and not the Orchard of the Macabre
In some situations, an unlabeled XP bonus was erroneously applied to quest XP. This has been removed. To compensate for the possible loss of XP, the minimum and maximum bonus for disabling traps, finding secret doors, and smashing breakables has been increased. [from max 10] to 15 percent.
On solo difficulty level, adventures now give 80% of the XP of an adventure on Normal instead of 50%.
Certain optionals and encounter quests in Restless Isles were not being properly marked as completed, but now they will.
A trap box in Gwynland's Stand is now usable.
In some cases, item icons would not update correctly resulting in either an incorrect background or missing the indicator that your character cannot use the item. This has been fixed.
The Black Abbot's "Touch of Dolurrh" has been renamed "Deathgrip of Dolurrh".
Humanoid monsters should no longer have altered faces in the focus orb
In examination, the attack and damage mods were not showing the player's enhanced ability scores. This has been corrected to show the mod of the current ability score of the player.
Players exiting the lighthouse on Ataraxia's Haven should no longer automatically fall from the lighthouse.
The Black Prophecy book item now has text!
Monsters in the Orc lair were having difficulty opening one of their doors to ambush players. They have oiled up the hinges so that the door now works properly.
The residents of Kundarak have grown tired of fishing out adventurers from the chasm, so they have enacted magic to prevent people from falling in.
In House Deneith, Senna Calyx now tells you the teleporter will take you to any of the house wards
A ladder in Vault of Night had been..."cut short" by a missplaced warrior's blade. It has now been replaced with a ladder of the proper length.
In Tangleroot Gorge, Chief Ungurz will now always advance the "Seeking Chief Ungurz" quest when you talk to him, even if you waited to get the quest from Eremic until you were halfway through the Splinterskull Story Arc.
NEW Decoration objects and invisible barriers to keep players from getting stuck will no longer affect targeting in adverse ways, resulting in fewer "ceiling shots" by archers and spell casters.
NEW Many Many Many stuck spots have been fixed throughout the entire game.
NEW In Vault of Night, Haywire's Voice now drops on exit as opposed to destroying itself on exit
NEW The gate from the market to the harbor now displays the correct crest, and the pranksters responsible for changing it have been assigned public service work cleaning the sewers for their efforts.
NEW Those darn kids replaced the Harbor crest on the door from Cerulean Hills with the Deneith crest. We have replaced the crest and sentenced the pranksters to still more community service cleaning up the sewers.6.12

The_Ick
01-21-2008, 10:34 AM
Couple really good updatest in there. Glad to see you got the 5th swing think worked out...

Nice job guys.. :D

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 10:38 AM
NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.

This means the 5th attack slow-down is fixed?

Yukiko
01-21-2008, 10:38 AM
Wow, this is a hudge honking Mod!

Its going to be great :D


*Throws hands into the air*
Woohooo!

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 10:39 AM
NEW There are now bags available for spell components and eldrich device ingredients, which work similarly to the collectible bags.

very nice for casters

Pfamily
01-21-2008, 10:40 AM
See?
There IS a weekly update!
:D

DareDelvis
01-21-2008, 10:41 AM
VoN 5 Haywire fix is helpful.

I am interested to see how the attack sequence modifier changes affect our ability to hit stuff.

Raelg14
01-21-2008, 10:42 AM
Thanks Q and does this mean that Mod 6 is still on track for the 30th?

Kerr
01-21-2008, 10:42 AM
Weekly Development Activities
NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.


Glad to see Spell Component bags and crafting bags, but I'm not sure about this. I still disagree with the attack sequences, but what did the old progress do?

The speedup of the fifth attack is a good thing though.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 10:43 AM
I still disagree with the attack sequences, but what did the old progress do?

The old progression when to +15, now it caps at +10. (Well, for now anyway.)

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 10:43 AM
This means the 5th attack slow-down is fixed?

looks like everything but THF is the same speed, and they gave an additional glancing blow to THF to compensate I guess

Kargon
01-21-2008, 10:44 AM
NEW Icons for Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Alley now feature the creature that is summoned by the spell

Kargon can summomon an alley and drop it on enemamies? niiiiiice ;)



NEW The spell effect icon for Potions of Wonder ability Wondrous Power will no longer be an image of tasty ham. Sorry Kargon.

No more Tasty Ham in a Bottle?
N0o0Oo0O0o0o0O0o0O0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o0O0o0o0o0O0o0O0O 0o0O0O0oO0O!!!!!!!!!!!

Gengulphus
01-21-2008, 10:46 AM
This is, by far, one of the best WDA's I've ever seen! So many fixes of various problems (I especially like the stunned and dazed (for mobs) = stunned and dazed for real fix!!!) and so many improvements (bags for components, etc.)!!! Awesome!!!

I'm really looking forward to Mod 6!

Thank you!!!

DasLurch
01-21-2008, 10:46 AM
some nice additions and fixes in this bunch, but I too would like some clarification on the new attack proggression

Kerr
01-21-2008, 10:56 AM
NEW When stunned, Ogre Magi will be so stunned they can no longer move around.

NEW When dazed, monsters will be so dazed they can no longer attack.


How about when Held or Paralyzed? And how about every other monster type out there?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 11:06 AM
some nice additions and fixes in this bunch, but I too would like some clarification on the new attack proggression

Here's the part I don't get, don't we already have +14 on the last swing now in a full bab class? Are they suggesting that we will be worse off at L15?

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 11:07 AM
In general I think I am going to like this Update...

just 2 things upset me about Mod 6..

Lack of Spells

And Lack of Non raid Quests..

I am hoping we see more of those in Anniversary Mod 6.1

Pellegro
01-21-2008, 11:07 AM
I'm particularly pleased to see that throwing weapons are now repairable.

I don't use them, but it seemed like something that needed some attention.

Spell component bags, on-the-fly to-hit stats that adjust as you move .... good stuff !!!

EinarMal
01-21-2008, 11:11 AM
Here's the part I don't get, don't we already have +14 on the last swing now in a full bab class? Are they suggesting that we will be worse off at L15?

No, those are a bonus above your BAB as you progress.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 11:11 AM
I like My version of the Black abbot changes better :D

The Black Abbot Raid
New To appease players the Black Abbot has been replaced by the God manifestation of the Stay Puft Marshmallow
New The three trials contained within the Black Abbot have all been replaced with the puzzle that requires to fit the correct shape into the correct hole.
New The Stay Puft Marshmallow will now send you back to the three trials if you have not yet beaten them, rather than simply continuing the battle immortal.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x226/dragnmoon/Staypuft.jpg

MrCow
01-21-2008, 11:12 AM
NEW Halt Undead now uses the correct save DC.

I win! :D

I also think Yaga Nub will be pleased to see they finally put this in the WDA.

Turial
01-21-2008, 11:14 AM
Cool stuff.

Now that we have bags for most everything else is there a chance quivers will be implemented for ranged combat users?

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 11:14 AM
I win! :D

I also think Yaga Nub will be pleased to see they finally put this in the WDA.

Can Cows Lose?

:D

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 11:14 AM
No, those are a bonus above your BAB as you progress.

*blinks* um..ok, I've just had a noob moment...I had no idea how overpowered we really were compared to PnP. I just kinda believe the math when it says +whatever to hit and never double checked. I mean the PnP progression really is 0/-5/-10/-15

Strakeln
01-21-2008, 11:14 AM
Not to be a pain... well, okay, trying to be a pain:

I like these bags that we keep getting. But really, come on now... what is the holdup for quivers/larger arrow stacks?

Shade
01-21-2008, 11:18 AM
General

NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.That doesn't sound like "we are in good shape"
I mean even if the 5th attack for 1handed/weapon is as slow as the rather slow 4th attack - by leveling up we will STILL lose dps. Because the first 3 attacks are the fastest. So overall the 5th attack has to be inbetween the speed of the 4th and the 1st attack for us to break even on overall attack speed - yea just to break even, for leveling up at a critical point... So its not really "in good shape" if thats the case - because we still end up in the weird situation that NOT leveling up, or triple classing in 2 0BAB classes will give us overall higher DPS - which makes no sense.

For 2handed you say nothing about being "in good shape" and i agree we aren't. Glancing blows won't make up for the loss in attack rate. Especially not for those who did not take all 4 two handed feats.

And a single glancing blow on 20% of attack for what should be the end of a powerful feat chain is quite frankly disapointing. I mean at least increase the damage of glancing blows some more like the other feats do, or give us 2 new glancing blows for the feat like greater two handed does.. I mean as it stands now grater two handed provides a massive increase in DPS, and superior sounds like it will barely alllow us to break even vs what we have now.. That doesn't make sense. I would not take that feat on my pure dps barbarian.

Please just allow us to disable the dreaded 5th attack in options.

Or just take away spell points and some dmg dice from caster classes when they hit level15 to make it fair - works the same way, i mean nerf everyone at the same time. :D (being sarcastic which i know often fails in text form)

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 11:23 AM
Q quick question...

Why are you not off today?..

*imagines Kate with a Whip, whipping everyone to work on their day off*

Beherit_Baphomar
01-21-2008, 11:23 AM
[/LIST]Please just allow us to disable the dreaded 5th attack in options. /signed

Or just take away spell points and some dmg dice from caster classes when they hit level15 to make it fair - works the same way, i mean nerf everyone at the same time. - Im not really understanding where you get "Melee are so powerful we need to nerf them" Devs, it just makes no sense to me.

And why cant you comment on the threads that are asking questions about this issue? Is it a nerf? Is it poor animation?

I dunno man, I just dunno...

...time to get my sorcerer levelled.

Deragoth
01-21-2008, 11:41 AM
NEW There are now bags available for spell components and eldrich device ingredients, which work similarly to the collectible bags.Let the Lashings commence! LASH LASH LASH!!!!

Bummer, I was pretty excited about the increase in backpack space.

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 11:46 AM
Items

NEW There are now bags available for spell components and eldrich device ingredients, which work similarly to the collectible bags.I'm intrigued by this one as well. Is this for all spell components, just for special components like Stoneskin, or what?

Kerr
01-21-2008, 11:47 AM
Or just take away spell points and some dmg dice from caster classes when they hit level15 to make it fair - works the same way, i mean nerf everyone at the same time.

I despise posts where people think they are being hurt and then demand other people be hurt as well.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 11:48 AM
I'm intrigued by this one as well. Is this for all spell components, just for special components like Stoneskin, or what?

It'd be preferable for ALL spell components, even unique ones, but I'd be happy with just the level 1,2,3, etc. That'd be 8 slots compressed into 1.

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 11:49 AM
Q quick question...

Why are you not off today?..

*imagines Kate with a Whip, whipping everyone to work on their day off*

most offices are open

Kerr
01-21-2008, 11:50 AM
most offices are open

It's only really a civil service holiday, or holiday for people who take it instead of Presidents Day as a holiday.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 11:52 AM
most offices are open

They shouldn't be, being that it is a Federal holiday....

This is me..

Boss... " hey we are all working on MLK day... i

Me..." ummm No we are not.... it is a federal holiday... you don't make us work on veterans day do you?

Kisaragi
01-21-2008, 11:54 AM
[Cool Stuff]

Added a "Sell Gems" button to the sell window of vendors which buy gems. Hitting this button will sell all unsecured gems in your inventory as well as all gems contained in all of your gem bags.
Detaching currency from auction mail will now properly auto delete the mail.


[Awesome Great Work Guys]

The user interface (UI) can now be re-skinned and customized by editing or applying user created skins.
Some items which were not marked as magical, such as a Minor Kinetic Lore Scepter, will now have the blue magical item background on it's icon.
There are now bags available for spell components and eldrich device ingredients, which work similarly to the collectible bags.


[Oh Thank Cube, finally fixed]

There are now fewer places in the public areas of Gianthold to get stuck.
Many Many Many stuck spots have been fixed throughout the entire game.
Returning Throwing Weapons are now repairable and sellable to brokers.


Don't you love Mondays?
Keep up the good work.

SilverSong
01-21-2008, 11:54 AM
They shouldn't be, being that it is a Federal holiday....

This is me..

Boss... " hey we are all working on MLK day... i

Me..." ummm No we are not.... it is a federal holiday... you don't make us work on veterans day do you?

In my area its a State and Fed holiday. Means all schools, banks, postoffices, State and Fed jobs are off/closed.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 11:54 AM
It's only really a civil service holiday, or holiday for people who take it instead of Presidents Day as a holiday.

It should be treated no differently then Veterans day, presidents day or labor day.. it has the same status as those as a Federal holiday..

Kerr
01-21-2008, 11:56 AM
They shouldn't be, being that it is a Federal holiday....
This is me..
Boss... " hey we are all working on MLK day... i
Me..." ummm No we are not.... it is a federal holiday... you don't make us work on veterans day do you?

Most offices aren't Federal, and are privately run.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 11:58 AM
Most offices aren't Federal, and are privately run.

True.. but most offices Close down when Banks are closed..

And most offices are closed Veterans day, Labor day and Presidents day..

I personally I have never worked on MLK day or any federal holiday unless it was an emergency.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 12:00 PM
Hey, I'm just happy to be out of retail so I don't have to work the day after Thanksgiving any more. :p

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 12:01 PM
Hey, I'm just happy to be out of retail so I don't have to work the day after Thanksgiving any more. :p

LOL... yeah that would stink... :D

I never go shopping that day... I hate people.. and too many people out that day lol

Kerr
01-21-2008, 12:03 PM
True.. but most offices Close down when Banks are closed..
And most offices are closed Veterans day, Labor day and Presidents day..
I personally I have never worked on MLK day or any federal holiday unless it was an emergency.

Regardless, they are working today, there is no Federal requirement that private businesses give any holiday off to any employee at any time. Lets move on to something important, such as the WDA, shall we?

bobbryan2
01-21-2008, 12:07 PM
Any update on the guild chat bug? Or the greater teleport issues?

Greater teleport issues were supposed to be resolved in 4.1.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 12:09 PM
Any update on the guild chat bug? Or the greater teleport issues?

Greater teleport issues were supposed to be resolved in 4.1.

There is a Guild chat bug?... never noticed it..

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 12:10 PM
True.. but most offices Close down when Banks are closed..

And most offices are closed Veterans day, Labor day and Presidents day..

I personally I have never worked on MLK day or any federal holiday unless it was an emergency.

If I'm not mistaken that's because those are state holidays and MLK is only a state holiday in some states

muffinlad
01-21-2008, 12:10 PM
I despise posts where people think they are being hurt and then demand other people be hurt as well.

Really? I love it! Pretty much sets out the "Don't listen to this misery loves company arguement" without having to really work for it.....

In the end though, I suppose I am just lazy.

muffinslacker

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 12:15 PM
If I'm not mistaken that's because those are state holidays and MLK is only a state holiday in some states

Sorry for bringing this up again..

It is a state holiday on all 50 states

Kerr
01-21-2008, 12:19 PM
Really? I love it! Pretty much sets out the "Don't listen to this misery loves company arguement" without having to really work for it.....

You're not from Xoriat are you?

Hambo
01-21-2008, 12:24 PM
They shouldn't be, being that it is a Federal holiday....

This is me..

Boss... " hey we are all working on MLK day... i

Me..." ummm No we are not.... it is a federal holiday... you don't make us work on veterans day do you?

<Off topic> It's only a holoday if your state recognizes it. Ask anyone from Arizona about MLK birthday. </Off topic>

I'm eager to see the new mod... just a few things for rogues but enough to keep things interesting. I can't wait to see the anniversary "mod 6.1", but really look forward to April and the possibility of Monks!

Coldin
01-21-2008, 12:26 PM
About the spell component bags, where will we actually find them? I checked the general vendor in House P on Risia, and while there was a medium ingredients bag available, there was no spell component bag. I hope they are random drops only.

greystone306
01-21-2008, 12:28 PM
nice to spell component bags, us rangers can only hope that bags for ammo are on the way.....

bobbryan2
01-21-2008, 12:30 PM
There is a Guild chat bug?... never noticed it..

Yes, there is.

akla_thornfist
01-21-2008, 12:30 PM
im running outa space with all these bags:D

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 12:34 PM
im running outa space with all these bags:D

can we have a bag bag?

Pellegro
01-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Sorry for bringing this up again..

It is a state holiday on all 50 states

This is way off topic but its worthy so I'll risk the demerits:

MLK day is a federal holiday and has been since Ronald Reagan signed it into law.

Since 2000, it has been observed in all 50 states.

More info is available here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Day.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 12:35 PM
can we have a bag bag?

Can we call it a Sack? :D;)

Oreg
01-21-2008, 12:36 PM
This is way off topic but its worthy so I'll risk the demerits:

MLK day is a federal holiday and has been since Ronald Reagan signed it into law.

Since 2000, it has been observed in all 50 states.

More info is available here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Day.

I will double check but I am pretty sure it is not a state holiday in Hawaii.

*edit* I stand corrected. It is a holiday in Hawaii. It wasn't a few years ago when I lived there.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 12:38 PM
nice to spell component bags, us rangers can only hope that bags for ammo are on the way.....

I already made my suggestion. Have multiple types of quivers available, some normal, some magical.

Start off with a basic quiver available for purchase that holds 5 stacks of arrows. A better one that holds 10 stacks. And then magical ones that work as follows:

The magical ones are like the Quiver of Elhonna (or whatever) that have multiple compartments. You click on the quiver and you get the multiple option window for Resist or Teleport. The magical ones come in levels as well, where the better ones have more compartments. Each compartment holds 10 stacks. You can drag and drop the compartment selection to your quick bar and toggle between compartments for fast switching of arrow types. WHen you run out of arrows in a compartment you have to swap to a different compartment, but otherwise it will use up a a compartment at a time. That way you could have silver arrows in one, slayer arrows in another, returning arrows in a third, etc.

Then add a Raid one that has one additional compartment with a stack of arrows with a hardness and durability of Artifact (meaning can not take damage ever) that has a really sweet effect in it, and is locked into that compartment. That'd be a sweet uber compartment that has some special effect arrow.

ChildrenofBodom
01-21-2008, 12:41 PM
NEW The Ranger Extra Empathy line of enhancements will now grant extra uses of Improved Wild Empathy as well.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

I have been listened to! This makes my day Quarion :)

ccheath776
01-21-2008, 12:41 PM
The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10.

What is the modifier right now?

0,0,5,10 seems a little low to me.
And will the mobs get the same nerf?

akla_thornfist
01-21-2008, 12:41 PM
can we have a bag bag?

yes can i please get a bag to hold all the bags

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 12:44 PM
What is the modifier right now?

0,0,5,10 seems a little low to me.
And will the mobs get the same nerf?

That's on top of BAB. It's not a nerf. (And, for the record, I'm pretty sure mobs don't have a progressive attack sequence at all.)

Right now it's +0/+0/+5/+10. At one point it was going to be +0/+0/+5/+10/+15, but they've instead elected to go with +0/+0/+5/+10/+10.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 12:44 PM
yes can i please get a bag to hold all the bags

Yes. It's called a Bag of Holding or a Portable Hole. It's slots 4 and 5 in your equipment window.

Honestly I've never seen such whining at something that is helpful before.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 12:45 PM
Honestly I've never seen such whining at something that is helpful before.

I think I detected a whiff of irony in the complaints about too many bags and the requests for Bag Bags.

But I could've been wrong.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 12:47 PM
I think I detected a whiff of irony in the complaints about too many bags and the requests for Bag Bags.

But I could've been wrong.

Too subtle for me. I prefer the bludgeoning irony that caves in skulls with it's straightforwardness.

akla_thornfist
01-21-2008, 12:48 PM
Yes. It's called a Bag of Holding or a Portable Hole. It's slots 4 and 5 in your equipment window.

Honestly I've never seen such whining at something that is helpful before.

i guess your no fun at partys

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 12:48 PM
That's on top of BAB. It's not a nerf.Right. With BAB+16, it's +16/+16/+21/+26/+26 before all other attack bonuses.

ccheath776
01-21-2008, 12:54 PM
That's on top of BAB. It's not a nerf. (And, for the record, I'm pretty sure mobs don't have a progressive attack sequence at all.)

Right now it's +0/+0/+5/+10. At one point it was going to be +0/+0/+5/+10/+15, but they've instead elected to go with +0/+0/+5/+10/+10.

so right now its 0,0,5,10

It will be 0,0,5,10,10 instead of progression to 15

Ok not a nerf then your right.
My question is why did they do it that way?
I mean a +/-5 to a true fighter wont mean much but its still BAB that is lost.
But I guess it doesn't really matter, just have to see how it plays out.
Thanks for the info.

raypal
01-21-2008, 12:54 PM
On Risia found a Soul Gem bag for Trap the Soul gems in The Twelve, but no trace of a Spell Component bag anywhere to be found. Is this the component bag in the WDA? If not, I hope a Spell Component bag would let you cast spells while components are in the bag. If not, what's the point? A bag to hold components you have to take out of the bag to use, just takes up another inventory slot. (Crosses fingers and hopes for best)

Kerr
01-21-2008, 12:54 PM
i guess your no fun at partys

You haven't seen what I can do with a cherry stem.

ChildrenofBodom
01-21-2008, 12:56 PM
QUIVERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!1ONE!!!!!O NE111!!!!!!!!!

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 12:56 PM
My question is why did they do it that way?
I mean a +/-5 to a true fighter wont mean much but its still BAB that is lost.Because further inflating player to-hit bonuses means further inflating mob AC, which means 3/4 BAB classes are screwed and useless at high levels. Capped progressive bonus means full BAB classes get an extra attack, but are not artificially inflated beyond what is achievable by other classes.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 12:56 PM
My question is why did they do it that way?

There are a lot of reasons, not the least of which is how it ends up affecting Moderate BAB characters (Clerics, Bards, Rogues, Monks). When Full BAB characters get an extra +5 on top of their already higher BAB, Moderate BAB characters start to end up being unable to hit anything.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 12:57 PM
You haven't seen what I can do with a cherry stem.

Woah.... 90's flash back...

Kerr
01-21-2008, 01:03 PM
Woah.... 90's flash back...

It's TIMELESS. :D

Josh
01-21-2008, 01:13 PM
It should be treated no differently then Veterans day, presidents day or labor day.. it has the same status as those as a Federal holiday..

Not only do I have to work today, but I have to work on Veteran's day also...and I'm a veteran!

Can a brother get a break?

Gornin
01-21-2008, 01:15 PM
Not only do I have to work today, but I have to work on Veteran's day also...and I'm a veteran!

Can a brother get a break?

You and me both. Fight the power! :D

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 01:17 PM
NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.

Hrm..... Considering that pen and paper the attack sequence is only 4 attacks at lvl 20 with a progression from 1st swing BAB of +0, -5, -10, -15 (in reality +20, +15, +10, +5). Why the 5th attack, and why does DDO's sequence go up instead of down? This is especially worrisome to me as a 20th level monk (in pen and paper) has a standard progression of +0, -5, -10 (+15, +10, +5) for their normal attack, and a flurry of +0, +0, +0, -5, -10 (+15, +15, +15, +10, +5). What would this be in DDO?

Yet another example of DDO's number inflation possible making things harder to implement further down the line?

Turial
01-21-2008, 01:21 PM
A little off topic but on the subject of bags. So our back pack slots are in reality portable holes. What are the rest of the bags? I would hope not bags of holding. Dont bad things happen when you put bags of holding in portale holes or is it the other way around?

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 01:27 PM
Hrm..... Considering that pen and paper the attack sequence is only 4 attacks at lvl 20 with a progression from 1st swing BAB of +0, -5, -10, -15 (in reality +20, +15, +10, +5). Why the 5th attack, and why does DDO's sequence go up instead of down? This is especially worrisome to me as a 20th level monk (in pen and paper) has a standard progression of +0, -5, -10 (+15, +10, +5) for their normal attack, and a flurry of +0, +0, +0, -5, -10 (+15, +15, +15, +10, +5). What would this be in DDO?

Yet another example of DDO's number inflation possible making things harder to implement further down the line?


In pnp it is simple the dm keeps track of attack progression. In ddo if the first attack was the best, then everyone would simply swing once move a bit to reset attack counter and then swing again always getting the best attack bonus, the solution is to reward thsoe who stand still or use tumble by increasing their attack bonus when they do not move. Kind of like standing your ground. Not exactly perfect but it was the best Turbine could do given the limitations of resetting attack sequences.

HumanJHawkins
01-21-2008, 01:28 PM
I despise posts where people think they are being hurt and then demand other people be hurt as well.

Me too, but at some point game balance becomes a critical issue... I think he was basically saying, please improve melee, but if you can't do that then nerf casters to balance the game.

Seriously, anyone with a tank for a main has seen a marked increase in groups that are only looking for casters lately. My main tank was recently turned down for a reaver raid that only had one tank... They guy said, "Sorry man, but we want to do this on elite so we're only taking casters and clerics." We all know that it can fairly easily be done on elite with a balanced group, but the point is that it is was way easier with just clerics and casters.

Personally, I just wish they would fix AC. That would pretty much balance the whole thing out. Basically, give everyone a secret behind-the-scenes +25% to their AC, and suddenly shields would matter... Dodge would matter... Everyone could still get hit by mobs at level, but high AC tanks would really be valuable again (without any real negative effect to low AC builds)

Cutedge
01-21-2008, 01:33 PM
NEW There are now bags available for spell components and eldrich device ingredients, which work similarly to the collectible bags.

Thank you so much for this. That's like seven or eight free spots in my ever-full inventory that I'm gonna enjoy with mod 6.

On an unrelated note, do you devs think that at some point DDO will be getting any of the character clothing customization that LOTRO is getting in book 12? I just saw all the stuff that they're doing like quivers that you can wear and such and it looks fantastic. That kind of customization for DDO would be amazing (as well as dx10 support :evilgrin: )

Xaxx
01-21-2008, 01:37 PM
I still love how even now people complain about groups wanting 2 or 3 casters... what about the days not to long ago when the group was 3 or 4 mele, 1 cleric, 1 caster... meles didnt moan then.. oh we have to many tanks in groups.. there should be more room for casters. Most caster mains didnt moan and complain.. we simply sat back and waited for the level cap knowing that power from arcane comes at higher levs... walla higher levs... and tank mains complain..... typical.

As for quivers... guys you already have returning arrows.... your getting an elf or ranger ap set that gives you unlimited arrows... and you still need something smaller to stick them in.... realy...... i mean what your askin for is like asking for 75% revitilizing casting components with a component bag... man i just shot 10 fireballs in a row but wow, now thanks to these new returning ingridients i only used 3. Am I missing something here.... yes yes arrows stack in 100 not 1000... ok so maybe up stack size a bit... but for all those people moaning about pnp and quivers and such... please remember pnp quivers hold 20, hence you find 20 arrows in chests... please remember each arrow stack is already 5x the size it should be

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 01:40 PM
Thank you so much for this. That's like seven or eight free spots in my ever-full inventory that I'm gonna enjoy with mod 6.

On an unrelated note, do you devs think that at some point DDO will be getting any of the character clothing customization that LOTRO is getting in book 12? I just saw all the stuff that they're doing like quivers that you can wear and such and it looks fantastic. That kind of customization for DDO would be amazing (as well as dx10 support :evilgrin: )


Given that they are based on the same engine, it would simply be a matter of adding in the code. That however is a decision that Turbine needs to make based on player demand

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 01:44 PM
In pnp it is simple the dm keeps track of attack progression. In ddo if the first attack was the best, then everyone would simply swing once move a bit to reset attack counter and then swing again always getting the best attack bonus, the solution is to reward thsoe who stand still or use tumble by increasing their attack bonus when they do not move. Kind of like standing your ground. Not exactly perfect but it was the best Turbine could do given the limitations of resetting attack sequences.

Yes, they should.... if they want to lose out on their full attack sequence. If you want to hit at +20, move (lose 3 more attacks), then hit again at +20, you should be able to do so. It is mathematically in your favor to NOT do so, though.

My bigger concern is the fact that Monks, at 20th with Flurry of Blows, should get 3 attacks out of five that are their best, while a 20th level Fighter would only get one. The new progression means that a Fighter's 4th and 5th attacks are both their best attacks, and not just their last one.

Look at it this way: The 5 attack sequence is deviating from pen and paper as follows: +0, +5, +15, +25, +30 (bonus attack pen and paper doesn't get). Apply this deviation to the 20th level Monk Flurry progression and you get a DDO progression of +0, +5, +15, +20 +15. Do you think Monk will be implemented in this manner? I don't. If Monk Flurry is implemented as +0, +0, +5, +10, +10, their increase is nerfed when compared to Monk's in pen and paper. Monk Flurry at level 20 should be something better than a level 20 Fighter's attack sequence, not the same. So it should probably be +0, +5, +10, +15, +20.

Recap:
Pen and paper level 20 Fighter attack sequence from BAB: +0, -5, -10, -15 (4 attacks)
Pen and paper level 20 Monk flurry sequence from BAB: +0, +0, +0, -5, -10 (5 attacks)

DDO attack sequence for 5 attacks (not Monks): +0, +0, +5, +10, +10 (5 attacks)
DDO attack sequence for 5 attacks (Monk), unknown and questionably nerfed.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 01:46 PM
As for quivers... guys you already have returning arrows.... your getting an elf or ranger ap set that gives you unlimited arrows... and you still need something smaller to stick them in.... realy...... i mean what your askin for is like asking for 75&#37; revitilizing casting components with a component bag... man i just shot 10 fireballs in a row but wow, now thanks to these new returning ingridients i only used 3. Am I missing something here.... yes yes arrows stack in 100 not 1000... ok so maybe up stack size a bit... but for all those people moaning about pnp and quivers and such... please remember pnp quivers hold 20, hence you find 20 arrows in chests... please remember each arrow stack is already 5x the size it should be

You must not play any ranged character.

If you DID, you'd know the reason.

The PROBLEM with ranged combat and ammunitionis currently that arrow slots refill with the next available arrow set. If I have 500 +3 returning arrows, followed by 40 Giant Slayer, 20 Outsider Slayer, 20 Kobold Slayers, followed by 1 Uber-God-Abbot-Lich Slayer arrow I run into a problem. If I'm in a quest and I see a Kobold that I really dislike, maybe he reminds me that Mocat is gone, then I may want to switch to the 20 Kobold slayer arrows. Either I have to dig into my pack and swap arrows, or I have to hotbar them. Either way, once switched, and fire off those 20 arrows, and roll a natural 1 20 times in a row, I'm now swapping out for the incorrect arrow type that's next in the bag, which could be that Uber-God-Abbot-Lich slayer arrow, wasted on a Kobold! We need better control of ammunition than we have now.

To put it this way, maybe you'll understand this, imagine you want to throw Magic Missiles at someone. Well the last spell you cast was Stoneskin, so now you're spending 200 pp on killing that one person because you just used up your Granite and DIamond dust instead of using your Level 1 spell component. Also, you never have to click on in your pack to choose what type of component you want to use, it's automatic.

Get it?

DSL
01-21-2008, 01:58 PM
I still love how even now people complain about groups wanting 2 or 3 casters... what about the days not to long ago when the group was 3 or 4 mele, 1 cleric, 1 caster... meles didnt moan then.. oh we have to many tanks in groups.. there should be more room for casters. Most caster mains didnt moan and complain.. we simply sat back and waited for the level cap knowing that power from arcane comes at higher levs... walla higher levs... and tank mains complain..... typical.

As for quivers... guys you already have returning arrows.... your getting an elf or ranger ap set that gives you unlimited arrows... and you still need something smaller to stick them in.... realy...... i mean what your askin for is like asking for 75% revitilizing casting components with a component bag... man i just shot 10 fireballs in a row but wow, now thanks to these new returning ingridients i only used 3. Am I missing something here.... yes yes arrows stack in 100 not 1000... ok so maybe up stack size a bit... but for all those people moaning about pnp and quivers and such... please remember pnp quivers hold 20, hence you find 20 arrows in chests... please remember each arrow stack is already 5x the size it should be

Anyone seriously relying on archery will be going through arrows 5-10 times faster than a spellcaster will go through spell components, when their stack size is 10 times smaller. I would guess that it would be common for an archery-focused ranger to devote at least one full inventory tab (i.e. 20 slots) exclusively to ammunition (and more if they aren't conservative), much of which must be frequently replaced. Also, arranging these stacks becomes important due to the mechanic of reloading with the next available ammunition stack, a non-existant issue for spell components. Is it logical? Not inherently less so than someone carrying around a dozen sets of full plate armor. Is it necessary? Obviously, archery has proven viable with the current ammo stacking mechanics (or at least, ammo is not the main issue in making it viable), but then spellcasting was never seriously impeded by the inventory space required for components (and in fact there is a feat to circumvent most of this inconvenience in any case).

Quarion
01-21-2008, 02:00 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

Theboz
01-21-2008, 02:02 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion


I quit, lol

Coldin
01-21-2008, 02:04 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

Well then Quarion, will there ever be spell component bags? It might make up for the mistake a little bit if we know we'll get them soon, like around Update 6.1. ;)

Gornin
01-21-2008, 02:04 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

No biggie. But if you really want to be lashed :eek:

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 02:06 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

/40 lashings with a wet noodle

tekn0mage
01-21-2008, 02:09 PM
You know, it wouldn't be hard for the "ingredient bag" to also hold spell components. It just baffles me why simple things like this are not in the game after 2 years.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 02:13 PM
You know, it wouldn't be hard for the "ingredient bag" to also hold spell components. It just baffles me why simple things like this are not in the game after 2 years.

Ok, I'm about to agree with Tekno so assuming the world doesn't come to a crashing end... make the stupid ingredient bags hold spell componants please (or get us a seperate bag..whichever is easier).

Considering we arent' even supposed to have spell componants except for expensive ingrediants wasting 8-10 inventory slots on them is moronic.

Tolero
01-21-2008, 02:14 PM
You know, it wouldn't be hard for the "ingredient bag" to also hold spell components. It just baffles me why simple things like this are not in the game after 2 years.

In the current form we could, but I don't think you'd like the results :eek: it wouldn't be pretty. Already feed backing on that ^^

DSL
01-21-2008, 02:17 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion


Ahhh, let us flay him with the frayed ends of a thousand collectables bags.:D

But seriously, wouldn't you really want a seperate, dedicated bag to carry around your bull dung?

Oreg
01-21-2008, 02:23 PM
Oh man. That was one of the best pieces of new news I had seen:(

8 slots currently freed up with another come level 16.

dragnmoon
01-21-2008, 02:23 PM
Ok, I'm about to agree with Tekno so assuming the world doesn't come to a crashing end... make the stupid ingredient bags hold spell componants please (or get us a seperate bag..whichever is easier).

Considering we arent' even supposed to have spell componants except for expensive ingrediants wasting 8-10 inventory slots on them is moronic.

*world comes to a crashing end.*

The End...

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 02:29 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

:(

By "this time around" you mean they'll be out in time for the 2 year anniversary, right? In 6.1, right? RIGHT?!?!

Ustice
01-21-2008, 02:42 PM
In the current form we could, but I don't think you'd like the results :eek: it wouldn't be pretty. Already feed backing on that ^^

Basically the code to access the the spell components if they are in a nested container does not exist. So, basically they COULD allow us to put them in a bag pretty easy, but once inside we couldn't use them for casting spells.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 02:43 PM
Basically the code to access the the spell components if they are in a nested container does not exist. So, basically they COULD allow us to put them in a bag pretty easy, but once inside we couldn't use them for casting spells.

Yeah, that's what it sounded like to me too.

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 02:44 PM
You know, it wouldn't be hard for the "ingredient bag" to also hold spell components. It just baffles me why simple things like this are not in the game after 2 years.

the problem it seems from Tolero's comment is that they cannot be used while in the bag, meaning you could put them in there, but they would not be usable until you put them into the main backpack. My guess is the subsystem that deducts arrows and ingredients upon use has not been modified to look into sub bags. However once this is done I would imagine that quivers for arrows would be a snap as well.

DrAwkward
01-21-2008, 02:44 PM
Ok, I'm about to agree with Tekno so assuming the world doesn't come to a crashing end... make the stupid ingredient bags hold spell componants please (or get us a seperate bag..whichever is easier).

Considering we arent' even supposed to have spell componants except for expensive ingrediants wasting 8-10 inventory slots on them is moronic.

Just adding them to the bag is easy. Making the spells be able to find them there is another story.
Probably the same reason we haven't seen quivers; Containers are currently just set up for out-of-combat items. Having them hold potions, spell components, or ammo is not a trivial amount of work.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 02:46 PM
My guess is the subsystem that deducts arrows and ingredients upon use has not been modified to look into sub bags. However once this is done I would imagine that quivers for arrows would be a snap as well.

Well arrows technically come out of the Equipped Ammo slot.

As long as you could still hotkey arrow stacks that are in bags and equip them that way, I think it wouldn't matter if they auto-equipped out of bags.

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 02:48 PM
Yes, they should.... if they want to lose out on their full attack sequence. If you want to hit at +20, move (lose 3 more attacks), then hit again at +20, you should be able to do so. It is mathematically in your favor to NOT do so, though.

My bigger concern is the fact that Monks, at 20th with Flurry of Blows, should get 3 attacks out of five that are their best, while a 20th level Fighter would only get one. The new progression means that a Fighter's 4th and 5th attacks are both their best attacks, and not just their last one.

Look at it this way: The 5 attack sequence is deviating from pen and paper as follows: +0, +5, +15, +25, +30 (bonus attack pen and paper doesn't get). Apply this deviation to the 20th level Monk Flurry progression and you get a DDO progression of +0, +5, +15, +20 +15. Do you think Monk will be implemented in this manner? I don't. If Monk Flurry is implemented as +0, +0, +5, +10, +10, their increase is nerfed when compared to Monk's in pen and paper. Monk Flurry at level 20 should be something better than a level 20 Fighter's attack sequence, not the same. So it should probably be +0, +5, +10, +15, +20.

Recap:
Pen and paper level 20 Fighter attack sequence from BAB: +0, -5, -10, -15 (4 attacks)
Pen and paper level 20 Monk flurry sequence from BAB: +0, +0, +0, -5, -10 (5 attacks)

DDO attack sequence for 5 attacks (not Monks): +0, +0, +5, +10, +10 (5 attacks)
DDO attack sequence for 5 attacks (Monk), unknown and questionably nerfed.


yes but this is not turn based combat, my opponent is not sitting there waiting for me to finish my 5 attacks before swinging at me, so if attack progression started higher and went lower there would be no incentive whatsoever to not move between swings.

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 02:49 PM
Basically the code to access the the spell components if they are in a nested container does not exist. So, basically they COULD allow us to put them in a bag pretty easy, but once inside we couldn't use them for casting spells.If that's the problem, I don't really see a longterm problem. Collectors pull collectables directly from your bag. And the new Sell Gems button will sell directly from your bag. So, Devs are at least halfway there. :)

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 02:49 PM
Well arrows technically come out of the Equipped Ammo slot.

As long as you could still hotkey arrow stacks that are in bags and equip them that way, I think it wouldn't matter if they auto-equipped out of bags.

yes but they reload out of the main bag when you get to zero

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 02:51 PM
yes but this is not turn based combat, my opponent is not sitting there waiting for me to finish my 5 attacks before swinging at me, so if attack progression started higher and went lower there would be no incentive whatsoever to not move between swings.

Yep, the real problem is that we're in real time.

In D&D you get an attack every six seconds (i.e. one round) and as your BAB goes up you get more swings with each (full) attack action. You have the option of making one swing at your full BAB in this six seconds or making up to 4 swings at a decreasing attack bonus also during this six seconds.

In DDO, you don't have to wait between attack actions, and swinging once takes less time than swinging 4+ times. So, if the attack bonus went down, no one would ever take their full attack since you could attack faster at a higher bonus by only making single attacks.

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 02:52 PM
If that's the problem, I don't really see a longterm problem. Collectors pull collectables directly from your bag. And the new Sell Gems button will sell directly from your bag. So, Devs are at least halfway there. :)

I imagine a different system is used in combat than at the vendor, one that is looking at ingredients and ammunition specifically to cut down on searches. I am sure it is doable, it just needs to get done, having the bags was the first hurdle, now it is simply getting items out in the right order etc.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 02:52 PM
yes but they reload out of the main bag when you get to zero

Right, but I guess I'm saying:

I'd be ok with it not "finding" the arrows in my quivers when I got to zero, if I was able to manually reload by clicking a button on my hotbar.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 02:55 PM
Horrid Wilting
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Deals 1d6 per caster level (max 20d6) damage to living targets by evaporating moisture from their bodies. Deals 1d8 per caster level (max 20d8) damage to water subtype outsiders and plants.


Anyone actually see a Water Elemental or 'outsider' or plant mob yet?

DaveyCrockett
01-21-2008, 02:55 PM
Right, but I guess I'm saying:

I'd be ok with it not "finding" the arrows in my quivers when I got to zero, if I was able to manually reload by clicking a button on my hotbar.

I wouldn't. I don't want arrows on my hotbars. Too many things there as it stands now.

FunnyCide
01-21-2008, 03:00 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

Awww....I was so looking forward to that bag! How do I break the news to my poor over burdened characters? =(

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 03:00 PM
I wouldn't. I don't want arrows on my hotbars. Too many things there as it stands now.

Sorry. I guess I should've been clearer.

I wouldn't mind it for now. If that's all that's keeping quivers out of the game, I'd be ok with adding them now with manual reloads and then getting them updated to auto-reload later.

Luthen
01-21-2008, 03:02 PM
Hello all,

I have to apologize. I misread a release note, and now you're all excited about it. :(

There will be no spell component bags this time around, just eldritch ingredient bags.

I apologize profusely. Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

I didn't wake up this morning wanting to be a jack@$$. But that doesn't mean I'm not ready to be. -Bill Engvall ;)

Seriously though. If you could answer a question about bags. Straight and to the point is the best way to go if possible. Why is the Dev team not prepaired to release the two most requested bags (Ammunition and Spell Componants) for Mod 6? I'm sure we'll want or need these new bags we're getting and that's fine. Would it really, seriously, have been so difficult to adjust some minor coding to change gem or collectable bags into ammunition and spell componant bags? There is NO downside to creating them. I know you will probably put them in eventually but for something so minor I just can't fathom why it wasn't done for Mod 6.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 03:06 PM
Would it really, seriously, have been so difficult to adjust some minor coding to change gem or collectable bags into ammunition and spell componant bags?

See above speculation for the most likely reason.

It's not hard to get stuff to go into bags. It's hard to get the code that accesses those items to look in bags for them.

BurnerD
01-21-2008, 03:07 PM
I didn't wake up this morning wanting to be a jack@$$. But that doesn't mean I'm not ready to be. -Bill Engvall ;)

Seriously though. If you could answer a question about bags. Straight and to the point is the best way to go if possible. Why is the Dev team not prepaired to release the two most requested bags (Ammunition and Spell Componants) for Mod 6? I'm sure we'll want or need these new bags we're getting and that's fine. Would it really, seriously, have been so difficult to adjust some minor coding to change gem or collectable bags into ammunition and spell componant bags? There is NO downside to creating them. I know you will probably put them in eventually but for something so minor I just can't fathom why it wasn't done for Mod 6.

Here's another question... Why can't collectables and gems go directly into bags? ooo ooo and another... Why don't desert tokens and outsider tokens go into bags... aren't they collectible? or am I just bugged... enquiring minds want to know :confused:

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 03:08 PM
Right, but I guess I'm saying:

I'd be ok with it not "finding" the arrows in my quivers when I got to zero, if I was able to manually reload by clicking a button on my hotbar.

I think the whole problem with quivers is going to come down to the fact that there are so many different types of ammunition that can be held in it, and how does it know which order to pull it out in.

Spell ingredients are easy as each spell has a specific ingredient so it will always grab the right one regardless of order.

Do you only allow arrows and bolts, or do you include throwing knives, shuriken, throwing axes and throwing hammers as well.


Quivers have to have their own little ruleset attached to them, unless you take the following approach, make them like gem bags, and if you want to use them move them to your main bag. It owuld allow you to keep many more arrows, but you would have to manage them manually

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 03:10 PM
I think the whole problem with quivers is going to come down to the fact that there are so many different types of ammunition that can be held in it, and how does it know which order to pull it out in.

Presumably, in order (top to bottom) just like they come out of your inventory that way (left to right, top to bottom, first bag to last bag).

Of course that probably means you would want the ability to be able to sort things in your quiver.

binnsr
01-21-2008, 03:11 PM
Let the lashings begin.
-Quarion

We're getting Whips?!!!!!??!!?!one!!

:eek:

Quarion
01-21-2008, 03:35 PM
the problem it seems from Tolero's comment is that they cannot be used while in the bag, meaning you could put them in there, but they would not be usable until you put them into the main backpack.

That is true... I understand they are working on it though. No ETA. But they are working on spell component bags :)

-Quarion

EspyLacopa
01-21-2008, 03:44 PM
That is true... I understand they are working on it though. No ETA. But they are working on spell component bags :)

-Quarion
I'm guessing the hard part is making sure the Spells recognize that the components are there in the first place.

Impaqt
01-21-2008, 03:46 PM
Here's another question... Why can't collectables and gems go directly into bags? ooo ooo and another... Why don't desert tokens and outsider tokens go into bags... aren't they collectible? or am I just bugged... enquiring minds want to know :confused:


Not sure about t he Outsider tokens, but Desert tokens do... THe problem is that a bag only holds ONE stack of 100, then no more can be put into the bag.... Big design flaw if you ask me. No reason why I sholdnt be able to fill up every slot in my bag with Ancient Bronze Tokens.

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 04:01 PM
yes but this is not turn based combat, my opponent is not sitting there waiting for me to finish my 5 attacks before swinging at me, so if attack progression started higher and went lower there would be no incentive whatsoever to not move between swings.

Even so.. my main concern is that a Monk's Flurry progression should be better than a Fighter's at 20th lvl.

bobbryan2
01-21-2008, 04:14 PM
Even so.. my main concern is that a Monk's Flurry progression should be better than a Fighter's at 20th lvl.

Who says they'll implement monk's flurry that way?

If it were me, I'd just give a 25% alacrity bonus.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 04:19 PM
Who says they'll implement monk's flurry that way?

If it were me, I'd just give a 25% alacrity bonus.

It should, unless I'm mistaken, be about on par with the alacrity bonus you get from Haste, as each gives you 1 extra attack in D&D.

bobbryan2
01-21-2008, 04:27 PM
It should, unless I'm mistaken, be about on par with the alacrity bonus you get from Haste, as each gives you 1 extra attack in D&D.

Haste is a 20-25% alacrity bonus... forget which. But yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 04:30 PM
Who says they'll implement monk's flurry that way?

If it were me, I'd just give a 25% alacrity bonus.


It should, unless I'm mistaken, be about on par with the alacrity bonus you get from Haste, as each gives you 1 extra attack in D&D.


Hrm... Perhaps. But cheesy, and more of a divergence from pen and paper... And that only addresses the high end for Flurry, and not the progression from 1st level to 20th. At low levels it should be a minus to hit and a plus to the number of attacks, at mid levels the penalty decreases and number of attacks increases, and at high levels the penalty goes away, and the number of attacks increases again.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 04:42 PM
At low levels it should be a minus to hit and a plus to the number of attacks, at mid levels the penalty decreases and number of attacks increases, and at high levels the penalty goes away, and the number of attacks increases again.

You accomplish this by making it a "stance" that gives an alacrity bonus and a to-hit penalty.

As you level up the to-hit penalty decreases and the alacrity bonus increases at the appropriate levels.

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 04:46 PM
You accomplish this by making it a "stance" that gives an alacrity bonus and a to-hit penalty.

As you level up the to-hit penalty decreases and the alacrity bonus increases at the appropriate levels.

I suppose, but this should stack with Haste.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 04:46 PM
yes but this is not turn based combat, my opponent is not sitting there waiting for me to finish my 5 attacks before swinging at me, so if attack progression started higher and went lower there would be no incentive whatsoever to not move between swings.

Yes, they could institute the "you can swing for x seconds if you move" rule or the "if you move for less than x seconds the old swing progression continues" rule, either of which stops you from twitching out of the planned progression.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2008, 04:48 PM
That is true... I understand they are working on it though. No ETA. But they are working on spell component bags :)

-Quarion

Yay Q promissed us the bags by Feb 1 :D

Rallie
01-21-2008, 05:02 PM
Weekly Development Activities

In QA
These items are currently in testing for release in Module 6.

Other Changes:
[LIST]
Fixed issues with greater teleport.

Could we get some clarification on this one? This item has been listed in the dev notes for some time now, but the 2 risia builds since then have no noticeable fixes to greater teleport. Posts asking about it in the dev and risia forums have gone unanswered. Will Greater Teleport be fixed to allow use in public areas, or should we expect it to continue to be broken in mod6?

Rallie
01-21-2008, 05:03 PM
In the current form we could, but I don't think you'd like the results :eek: it wouldn't be pretty. Already feed backing on that ^^

Q & Tolero: PLEASE use the dev tracker! I like being able to quickly jump to the dev posts.

bobbryan2
01-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Could we get some clarification on this one? This item has been listed in the dev notes for some time now, but the 2 risia builds since then have no noticeable fixes to greater teleport. Posts asking about it in the dev and risia forums have gone unanswered. Will Greater Teleport be fixed to allow use in public areas, or should we expect it to continue to be broken in mod6?

Heh.. that one's been in the 'release notes' since Mod 4.1

EspyLacopa
01-21-2008, 05:14 PM
It should, unless I'm mistaken, be about on par with the alacrity bonus you get from Haste, as each gives you 1 extra attack in D&D.
Actually, if you're using analogs with what's already in the game, it should start off on par with the bonus speed of Rapid Shot (+1 attack per round, all at -2 attack), and progressively get faster until it's a bit faster than Haste at level 9 monk (2 extra attacks per round, no penalty)

greystone306
01-21-2008, 05:29 PM
I already made my suggestion. Have multiple types of quivers available, some normal, some magical.

Start off with a basic quiver available for purchase that holds 5 stacks of arrows. A better one that holds 10 stacks. And then magical ones that work as follows:

The magical ones are like the Quiver of Elhonna (or whatever) that have multiple compartments. You click on the quiver and you get the multiple option window for Resist or Teleport. The magical ones come in levels as well, where the better ones have more compartments. Each compartment holds 10 stacks. You can drag and drop the compartment selection to your quick bar and toggle between compartments for fast switching of arrow types. WHen you run out of arrows in a compartment you have to swap to a different compartment, but otherwise it will use up a a compartment at a time. That way you could have silver arrows in one, slayer arrows in another, returning arrows in a third, etc.

Then add a Raid one that has one additional compartment with a stack of arrows with a hardness and durability of Artifact (meaning can not take damage ever) that has a really sweet effect in it, and is locked into that compartment. That'd be a sweet uber compartment that has some special effect arrow.
No, Normal should be 10 stacks at least.. On my ranger till i switched him to mostly melee, I would usually try to keep a full backpack slot full of arrows before any quest.. unless you could have multiple bags a 5 stack(i.e 500 arrows) quiver would be pointless.. you'd only be saving 4 slots.. arrows go quick until you get the enough house D favor to have the sturdy arrows...

BurnerD
01-21-2008, 05:35 PM
Not sure about t he Outsider tokens, but Desert tokens do... THe problem is that a bag only holds ONE stack of 100, then no more can be put into the bag.... Big design flaw if you ask me. No reason why I sholdnt be able to fill up every slot in my bag with Ancient Bronze Tokens.

Yup I stand corrected... I think mebbe that was the issue. I forget details after afew days. Thanks for the info :)

Kerr
01-21-2008, 05:59 PM
No, Normal should be 10 stacks at least.. On my ranger till i switched him to mostly melee, I would usually try to keep a full backpack slot full of arrows before any quest.. unless you could have multiple bags a 5 stack(i.e 500 arrows) quiver would be pointless.. you'd only be saving 4 slots.. arrows go quick until you get the enough house D favor to have the sturdy arrows...

Eh, I try to keep with the theme set by the collectibles bag, which are pretty useless as the smalle ones you get, and have limits still on the medium. I've only found one large one before and haven't reached the limit of unique collectibles for it yet.

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 06:03 PM
Actually, if you're using analogs with what's already in the game, it should start off on par with the bonus speed of Rapid Shot (+1 attack per round, all at -2 attack), and progressively get faster until it's a bit faster than Haste at level 9 monk (2 extra attacks per round, no penalty)Better yet, Rapid Shot should equal Haste for +25% alacrity instead of the subpar +10% we get now.

Flurry should match that, too. Then, at Monk 11 (for Greater Flurry), it should increase again to +40% (essentially, 2 extra attacks with 5 regular attacks in DDO by BAB+15).

EspyLacopa
01-21-2008, 06:10 PM
Better yet, Rapid Shot should equal Haste for +25% alacrity instead of the subpar +10% we get now.
ONLY if it were treated as another stance, that also comes with a -2 penalty on all attacks.

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 06:12 PM
ONLY if it were treated as another stance, that also comes with a -2 penalty on all attacks.Yeah, I'd be okay with that. :) And as MT suggested, Flurry could be a stance, too (actually a toggle like the new Improved Precise Shot, so that you can use CE/PA/etc.)

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 06:24 PM
Weekly Development Activities

NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.[/LIST]UI Improvements[LIST]


Well it's at least a step in the right direction.

But seriously guys. A simple timer and a proper application of the BAB progression would solve a whole mess of problems in the game. Why the hesitation? 2-3 second rounds, descending chances to hit, it's a bit of a no brainer.

EspyLacopa
01-21-2008, 06:33 PM
Well it's at least a step in the right direction.

But seriously guys. A simple timer and a proper application of the BAB progression would solve a whole mess of problems in the game. Why the hesitation? 2-3 second rounds, descending chances to hit, it's a bit of a no brainer.

Then you have people who attack once, move a little, attack again, still using the highest attack. Where's the point in using that full round attack when you can hit far more often by attacking then moving?

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 06:43 PM
Then you have people who attack once, move a little, attack again, still using the highest attack. Where's the point in using that full round attack when you can hit far more often by attacking then moving?

Timer. I said timer. If you take another attack within 2-3 seconds it's at -5 to hit. A third, -10 to hit. If you don't take the swings and wait you are just depriving yourself of an extra opportunity to cause damage. This "move a little and attack" excuse really doesn't hold water.

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 06:49 PM
Yeah, I'd be okay with that. :) And as MT suggested, Flurry could be a stance, too (actually a toggle like the new Improved Precise Shot, so that you can use CE/PA/etc.)

I agree.

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 07:05 PM
Timer. I said timer. If you take another attack within 2-3 seconds it's at -5 to hit. A third, -10 to hit. If you don't take the swings and wait you are just depriving yourself of an extra opportunity to cause damage. This "move a little and attack" excuse really doesn't hold water.


because I would simply wait the 3 to 4 secs before swinging again to get that extra bonus and hit more often than I ever would going through the progression

HumanJHawkins
01-21-2008, 07:27 PM
The PROBLEM with ranged combat and ammunitionis currently that arrow slots refill with the next available arrow set.

I think we need bigger stacks or quivers, so don't take this as an argument against. I just wanted to point out that arrows don't automatically equip if you have them locked.

So:

Equip the some cheap arrows...
Put a couple of fresh stacks of 100 cheap arrows from deeper in your inventory into your hotbar. (Leave these and the other 1000+ cheap arrows unlocked)
Lock all your good arrows and put them in your hotbar.Then, when you want to use good arrows, click on them from your hotbar. If you run out, cheap arrows automatically equip because the good ones are locked. If you want to switch to cheap arrows before you run out, click the cheapies in your hotbar.

That said, it is silly that my fighter can literally carry 20 suits of full plate in the same amount of space that my ranged fighter needs to carry 1000 arrows! (Yes, I can do math, but many different types of arrows don't stack... Figuring average stack size of 50 arrows is actually generous.)

gpk
01-21-2008, 07:33 PM
It sure would be nice to get some dev clarification on the BAB15+ overall attack slowdown.

On Risia right now, at bab15 your swing rate is REDUCED by 10&#37; rather than being increased (attack bonus was dropped from +15 to +10, player initiated request I might add), so really if the 5th swing were to increase in speed even by 10% (at +10 ab) it's a net Decrease of 20%.

Is this really a wise decision given the current state of the game and the "balance" between the classes?

greystone306
01-21-2008, 07:36 PM
I think we need bigger stacks or quivers, so don't take this as an argument against. I just wanted to point out that arrows don't automatically equip if you have them locked.

So:

Equip the some cheap arrows...
Put a couple of fresh stacks of 100 cheap arrows from deeper in your inventory into your hotbar. (Leave these and the other 1000+ cheap arrows unlocked)
Lock all your good arrows and put them in your hotbar.Then, when you want to use good arrows, click on them from your hotbar. If you run out, cheap arrows automatically equip because the good ones are locked. If you want to switch to cheap arrows before you run out, click the cheapies in your hotbar.

That said, it is silly that my fighter can literally carry 20 suits of full plate in the same amount of space that my ranged fighter needs to carry 1000 arrows! (Yes, I can do math, but many different types of arrows don't stack... Figuring average stack size of 50 arrows is actually generous.)
Possibly another option other then bags would be to have another backpack appear that would be restricted to Bolts or Arrows only.. maybe as a favor item for House D or a feat given automatically to Rangers at first level and choosable by others.. not sure...

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 07:55 PM
It sure would be nice to get some dev clarification on the BAB15+ overall attack slowdown.

At bab15 your swing rate is REDUCED by 10&#37; rather than being increased (attack bonus was dropped from +15 to +10, player initiated request I might add), so really if the 5th swing were to increase in speed even by 10% (at +10 ab) it's a net Decrease of 20%.

Is this really a wise decision given the current state of the game and the "balance" between the classes?The clarification/fix was already announced in this very WDA. :confused:

gpk
01-21-2008, 09:06 PM
The clarification/fix was already announced in this very WDA. :confused:

It says "For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them."

Which to me sounds like the 5th swing itself is the same speed as the 4th, i.e. same duration; it doesn't offer any clarification as to the overrall swing rate for a full attack chain at BAB15+.

If the 4th swing duration is the same as the first 3 (is it slower?) then (by the WDA statement) a 5th attack would mean your swing rate would remain the same at bab 15 as bab 14, just that the 5th swing gets a +10 to hit.

If the 4th swing is slower than the first 3, a 5th attack at the same speed as the 4th would slow the overall swings/time down.

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 10:02 PM
because I would simply wait the 3 to 4 secs before swinging again to get that extra bonus and hit more often than I ever would going through the progression

Alright lets resort to math as people don't seem to understand this concept.

Say a round is 3 seconds, and you get 3 attacks per round.

You fight for 3 rounds.

Waiting and swinging once every three second to always have your highest to hit bonus will end up looking like this:

Round 1: Attack once at full bonus, sit and wait for the rest of the 3 seconds to go by.
Round 2: Attack once at full bonus, sit and wait for the rest of the 3 seconds to go by.
Round 3: Attack once at full bonus.
Fights over. You attacked three times, all with no penalty to hit.

With BAB properly implemented and taking advantage of all of your attacks you get this:

Round 1: Attack once at full bonus, a second time at -5 to hit, a third time at -10 to hit.
Round 2: Attack once at full bonus, a second time at -5 to hit, a third time at -10 to hit.
Round 3: Attack once at full bonus, a second time at -5 to hit, a third time at -10 to hit.
Fights over. You attacked three times with no penalty to hit, three more times at -5 to hit on each swing, and three more times beyond that at -10 to hit on each swing.

Now what is the advantage in sitting and waiting? You gain nothing in doing so.

All we are talking about is a small timer icon that resets itself every X seconds when you attack, just like the cooldown timer on spells. We aren't talking cutting edge technology here.

UtherSRG
01-21-2008, 10:06 PM
Possibly another option other then bags would be to have another backpack appear that would be restricted to Bolts or Arrows only.. maybe as a favor item for House D or a feat given automatically to Rangers at first level and choosable by others.. not sure...

Certainly not a feat. I would be ok with it being something from favor.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 10:09 PM
Alright lets resort to math as people don't seem to understand this concept.

Say a round is 3 seconds, and you get 3 attacks per round.

The flaw here is that in order for this to work, the "single attacK' at BAB <6 has to take 3 seconds.

Do you know how slow that is?

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 10:13 PM
The flaw here is that in order for this to work, the "single attacK' at BAB <6 has to take 3 seconds.

Do you know how slow that is?

Make it two seconds then. Or 1.5. The main thing is that BAB on progressive attacks goes down. shoot if you are really worried about it we could still keep that second attack at BAB +1 thing.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 10:20 PM
Make it two seconds then. Or 1.5. The main thing is that BAB on progressive attacks goes down. shoot if you are really worried about it we could still keep that second attack at BAB +1 thing.

But either way you're trying to put 1-4 (or more) attacks in a given length of time.

This works in a turn-based system but not in a real-time system. In a real-time system, if the time-period is too short you're moving unrealistically fast at high BAB (especially when you add in things like Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Haste and other attack-adding abilities). If the time-period is too long, you move too slowly at low BAB and things aren't fun.

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 10:36 PM
But either way you're trying to put 1-4 (or more) attacks in a given length of time.

This works in a turn-based system but not in a real-time system. In a real-time system, if the time-period is too short you're moving unrealistically fast at high BAB (especially when you add in things like Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Haste and other attack-adding abilities). If the time-period is too long, you move too slowly at low BAB and things aren't fun.

One could easily say that what we have now doesn't work well either, and what you describe is actually how D&D works. Multiple attacks in a round means multiple attacks in a round, that's the game, it's been that way for 30 years or so.

A 20th level fighter should get in a staggering number of hits in a round. Haste should make you hyperactively fast. Rapid Shot really only adds 1 attack in a round, with penalties added in to hit. Flurry of blows only adds an attack or two, roughly bringing them up to par with the speed of an equal level fighter, and they deserve it. As a martial arts student myself I know first hand the ability of master martial artist to make this many attacks is almost second nature. These really aren't problems.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 10:39 PM
and what you describe is actually how D&D works.

Yes, and like I said, it's a system that works better in a Turn Based system than it does in Real Time.

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 10:43 PM
Yes, and like I said, it's a system that works better in a Turn Based system than it does in Real Time.


And as it has been pointed out, what we have doesn't work well either. So putting opinions aside what would you suggest? At least the system from PnP works well, whether it is too fast/slow is just a matter of timing and opinion.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 10:50 PM
And as it has been pointed out, what we have doesn't work well either. So putting opinions aside what would you suggest?

Smaller incremental bonuses. +0/+1/+2/+3/+4/+5 isn't that bad but it still rewards you for going through the chain. Even +0/+2/+4/+6/+8/+10 wouldn't be bad, since the difference between being at one tier and the next is small (+2 difference).

Alternatively, drop the attack progression all together and merely increase attack speed as BAB increases. But at +0/+0/+0/+0/etc. you wouldn't need to do it to the degree that you would've had to in order to make a decreasing iteration worthwhile. Which is to say you can go from 10 attacks in 10 seconds (to use a random base speed) to 12 then 14 then 16 then 18 then 20. As opposed to the D&D version which would be 10 to 20 to 30 to 40.

ArkoHighStar
01-21-2008, 10:52 PM
And as it has been pointed out, what we have doesn't work well either. So putting opinions aside what would you suggest? At least the system from PnP works well, whether it is too fast/slow is just a matter of timing and opinion.

It only works well because it is turned based and the dm controls each set of moves, if you get 4 attacks, you get to roll for those 4 attacks, and the monster/dm waits patiently to see how you did before swinging back. This does not happen in ddo, so instead you are rewarded for standing your ground with increasing attacks.

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 10:55 PM
It only works well because it is turned based and the dm controls each set of moves, if you get 4 attacks, you get to roll for those 4 attacks, and the monster/dm waits patiently to see how you did before swinging back. This does not happen in ddo, so instead you are rewarded for standing your ground with increasing attacks.


That's irrelevant. The only thing that's changed is everyone can swing at the same time.

Smaller incremental bonuses. +0/+1/+2/+3/+4/+5 isn't that bad but it still rewards you for going through the chain. Even +0/+2/+4/+6/+8/+10 wouldn't be bad, since the difference between being at one tier and the next is small (+2 difference).

Alternatively, drop the attack progression all together and merely increase attack speed as BAB increases. But at +0/+0/+0/+0/etc. you wouldn't need to do it to the degree that you would've had to in order to make a decreasing iteration worthwhile. Which is to say you can go from 10 attacks in 10 seconds (to use a random base speed) to 12 then 14 then 16 then 18 then 20. As opposed to the D&D version which would be 10 to 20 to 30 to 40.

The second option actually isn't bad as it would put us and the mobs on equal footing. We'd still need to do something about the relative uselessness of AC at higher levels though, which is a problem that is addressed with a descending BAB.



What people are saying is not just sitting there but moving out of harm way till it reset. truthfully I bearly get though 4 attacks 99&#37; of the time because I dont need the too hit bonus and I take ALOT less damage by moving instead of standing still and attacking though 4 swings.

Am always moving to flanking are adjusting my poistion so that only one enemy can hit me. Sometime even using the enemy I attacking as a wall between me and other enemies.

-4 to hit when moving. No penalty if you have Spring Attack. Problem solved.

mgoldb2
01-21-2008, 10:55 PM
Now what is the advantage in sitting and waiting? You gain nothing in doing so.

What people are saying is not just sitting there but moving out of harm way till it reset. truthfully I bearly get though 4 attacks 99&#37; of the time because I dont need the too hit bonus and I take ALOT less damage by moving instead of standing still and attacking though 4 swings.

Am always moving to flanking or adjusting my poistion so that only one enemy can hit me. Sometime even using the enemy I attacking as a wall between me and other enemies.

mgoldb2
01-21-2008, 11:19 PM
-4 to hit when moving. No penalty if you have Spring Attack. Problem solved.

That fine there still 0 chance of me sitting though 5 attacks without moving. There actually no chance of me doing it on purpose with the current system unless they fix 5th attack speed. The whole point of the attack progression is to give you a reason not to move while attacking.

I am moving for sure with a timer. Maybe some attacks will have an additional minus 4 but still a lot better off then just standing still. I just make sure to stop for a second when the timer reset to get a good solid hit on the first.

EspyLacopa
01-22-2008, 05:29 AM
But either way you're trying to put 1-4 (or more) attacks in a given length of time.

This works in a turn-based system but not in a real-time system. In a real-time system, if the time-period is too short you're moving unrealistically fast at high BAB (especially when you add in things like Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Haste and other attack-adding abilities). If the time-period is too long, you move too slowly at low BAB and things aren't fun.

Idea then: Any time your character is given only 1 attack per round, give them a second attack, at a -20 penalty.

GrayOldDruid
01-22-2008, 06:15 AM
Good updates... just wondering about a bug...

Paralyzed enemies still skate around - very annoying when you are paralyzing them inside a firewall :D or, the paralyzed enemy advances up to your face... which is exactly where you don't want them.

Any idea when / if this will be fixed?

Every quest I use the paralyzer I get someone asking "How can they move when paralyzed??"

sda3
01-22-2008, 07:42 AM
NEW There are now bags available for spell components and eldrich device ingredients, which work similarly to the collectible bags.

very nice for casters

Except for the fact that we now have to carry 3482 bags in our inventory. Can't it all just go into the collectible bags?

Serpent
01-22-2008, 08:39 AM
So let me get this straight. I am a fighter. I now attack slower or at the very least, the same rate. I have no real new feats to choose from. I get to pick 2 new feats with level cap. To use my favorite two handed weapon I have to attack even slower, but I get the benefit of maybe dealing 15 points to that guy over there.

So, developers. Give us fighter's something. Maybe a Prc or idk, you get paid to think on that. Every other class has some or is scheduled to have some special attention, meanwhile, I'll just go back to shield blocking another door.

Ustice
01-22-2008, 09:15 AM
It only works well because it is turned based and the dm controls each set of moves, if you get 4 attacks, you get to roll for those 4 attacks, and the monster/dm waits patiently to see how you did before swinging back. This does not happen in ddo, so instead you are rewarded for standing your ground with increasing attacks.

The other reason that it works in turn-based play is that it is based on the assumption that every attack does not equal one swing. Both combatants are assumed to be making many swings, feints, and other maneuvers within that 6 second time span, most of them being countered or avoided. The "attacks" are how often in that time there is an opportunity to make a telling blow.

In order to represent that in real-time it would mean that the animations would have to be completely redone, and the animations would have to be dynamic. Its just technically not feasible.

Given that, I would support MT's suggestion of eliminating the progression all-together. Its the only way to eliminate the Monty Hall problem. That is why the progression decreases as you make further attacks. (Of course the mob's AC's would have to be adjusted accordingly, and maybe a slight decrease in the effects like Potency on spells)

To go with a timer and with a more PnP attack progression, I think, would be good for the game, but a LOT would have to change. It would dramatically slow down combat, and as a result we would have to go to a more PnP-like level in HP. Once again, this think that this would be a GOOD thing, but we are talking about basically a complete rebalancing of all of the combat systems in DDO.

EspyLacopa
01-22-2008, 09:27 AM
Its just technically not feasible.
Actually, it is feasible, it'd just be rather costly due to the amount of resources they'd have to set aside to do it properly. The beancounters would never allow it. Not until it became clear that the current system is so horribly broken that fixing it would be more costly.

My own theory on how to fix it more simply? Have two separate attack actions.
One is a Standard Action attack: Swings once, no movement while swinging. Animates in half a round, with a cooldown of another half a round.
Two is a Full Round attack: Swings a full round of attacks (4 at BAB+16), drastically reduced movement speed to simulate the ability to do a 5' move in PnP. Animates in a full round, no cooldown.
Have the two share the same cooldown. Perhaps only give the Full Round attack option to those who have hit BAB +6.

Perhaps have the default action be the Standard Attack at BAB +0 to BAB +5, then switch it to the Full Round attack at BAB +6.

bobbryan2
01-22-2008, 09:30 AM
Actually, it is feasible, it'd just be rather costly due to the amount of resources they'd have to set aside to do it properly. The beancounters would never allow it. Not until it became clear that the current system is so horribly broken that fixing it would be more costly.

Is it really horribly broken? Seems to work halfway decently to me. It might not be how you'd implement it, but to say it's horribly broken is a little melodramatic.

EspyLacopa
01-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Is it really horribly broken? Seems to work halfway decently to me. It might not be how you'd implement it, but to say it's horribly broken is a little melodramatic.
Exactly. Until a majority of developers and players see it as broken, they'd never put in the resources to "fix" it. They have other things that they'd rather spend those resources on.

Gaermain
01-22-2008, 10:15 AM
NEW Halt Undead now uses the correct save DC

This was annoying. Thanks Cow, mucho appreciated.

Bashiba
01-22-2008, 10:24 AM
Bards gain access to the following existing spells:

* Cat's Grace, Mass; Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass; Eagle's Splendor, Mass; Fox's Cunning, Mass; Heroes' Feast; and Summon Monster VI


Don't Bards get Mass Hold Person as a level 6 spell? Seems like a natural fit for them.

dragnmoon
01-22-2008, 10:29 AM
Don't Bards get Mass Hold Person as a level 6 spell? Seems like a natural fit for them.

I wish...

No they don't.. it is a Level 7 Wiz/Sor spell only

MysticTheurge
01-22-2008, 10:36 AM
Don't Bards get Mass Hold Person as a level 6 spell? Seems like a natural fit for them.

Nope.


Hold Person, Mass
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7

Mad_Bombardier
01-22-2008, 10:48 AM
So let me get this straight. I am a fighter. I now attack slower or at the very least, the same rate. I have no real new feats to choose from. I get to pick 2 new feats with level cap. To use my favorite two handed weapon I have to attack even slower, but I get the benefit of maybe dealing 15 points to that guy over there.With this fix, SWF should attack at the same rate (~96 attacks per minute). But, you now an extra attack at highest bonus to-hit included in the combo chain. In a 30 second period (for brevity)

With BAB+14 and 4th attack, you now get 48 attacks:
+0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10
= 24 attacks at +0, 12 attacks at +5, and 12 attacks at +10 (+852 in total to-hit bonuses in 30 seconds).

With BAB+15 and 5th attack, you should get 48 attacks:
+0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5/+10/+10, +0/+0/+5 (only half of combo chain in 30 seconds)
= 20 attacks at +0, 10 attacks at +5, and 18 attacks at +10 (+950 in total to-hit bonuses in 30 seconds).

48 if that increase is from BAB increasing +1 over 48 attacks; the other 50 is from to-hit bonus on 5th attack. So, same attack speed with higher bonuses = more attacking power = more hits = more damage = better for most players. If you're &#252;ber and already hit on a 2, then you are getting the same number of hits for the same damage. At the very least, you have lost no power (like we did at BAB+10). That is a pretty good fix.


Glancing Blows and THF are a separate issue. It's my assessment that double glancing blows on 5th attack (w/ SupTHF) will more than make up for slower attack speed IF you are facing multiple enemies. However, versus single or two targets, THF still suffers with the new, slower attack.

EspyLacopa
01-22-2008, 10:51 AM
Don't Bards get Mass Hold Person as a level 6 spell? Seems like a natural fit for them.
Nope. They do however get Mass Charm Monster.

dragnmoon
01-22-2008, 10:52 AM
stuff with lots of numbers.

So what you are saying Mad... that What Q is saying, with SWF/TWF that Attacking 5 times takes as long as attacking 4 times, but THF is slower but you get an extra Glancing blow?..

And Not... The 5th attack is as fast as the 4th attack As I read it..

Mad_Bombardier
01-22-2008, 11:05 AM
So what you are saying Mad... that What Q is saying, with SWF/TWF that Attacking 5 times takes as long as attacking 4 times, but THF is slower but you get an extra Glancing blow?Actually, kind of. I don't think attacks 1-4 are being sped up so that the new attacks 1-5 is in the same time as the old attacks 1-4. I do think that they are trying to preserve the overall rate of attack from BAB+14, which was ~96 attacks per minute. Now, I gotta wait for them to update Risia (or release the Mod) so I can do some time tests.

P.S. "stuff with lots of numbers" is awesome. :D

dragnmoon
01-22-2008, 11:08 AM
I may be incorrect. But, yes, that is my read of the post.

Well then that would be awesome..

If they did that with SWF/TWF? why would they not do the same with THF though?

Mad_Bombardier
01-22-2008, 11:11 AM
Well then that would be awesome.Actually, no. I misread, edited, and clarfied above.

Fallout
01-22-2008, 11:12 AM
>For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them.

So from what I read, it makes dual wielding more powerful then before? With the ranger tempest mods and attack speeds, it looks like ranger will be the new favorite melee class. High dps, good AC, cast spells and use wands.

Mad_Bombardier
01-22-2008, 11:37 AM
NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.Ok, re-re-reading and looking at it from another angle. According to my earlier SWF time trials on Live/Risia:
BAB+9 = 108 attacks per minute. That's 36 three-attack combos. Meaning attacks 1-3 take 1.666 seconds to complete.
BAB+14 = 96 attacks per minute. That's 24 four-attack combos. Meaning attacks 1-4 take 2.5 seconds and attack 4 alone takes .833 seconds.
BAB+15 = 90 attacks per minute. That's 18 five-attack combos. Meaning attacks 1-5 take 3.33 seconds and attack 5 alone takes .833 seconds.

If we are to read the above WDA note that attack 5 will take the same time as attack 4, then attack 5 will add another .833 seconds to the combo (2.5 seconds + .833 = 3.33 seconds). Which is exactly what it was when Risia was first updated. So, according to the WDA note, nothing has changed? :confused: "in good shape with them" must certainly mean something else.

Using my above method of example,
With BAB+14 and 4th attack, you now get 96 attacks per minute
= 48 attacks at +14+0, 24 attacks at +14+5, and 24 attacks at +14+10 (+1704 in total to-hit bonuses per minute).

With BAB+15 and 5th attack, you now get 90 attacks per minute
= 36 attacks at +15+0, 18 attacks at +15+5, and 36 attacks at +15+10 (+1800 in total to-hit bonuses per minute).

A difference of +96 more to-hit bonuses, which equals +1 BAB over 96 attacks. Which means no increase or decrease by gaining the 5th attack, only the increase in BAB. That can't be right... :(

Update: What they need to do to match my first example is speed up the animation and make the 5th attack faster. Instead of the 5th attack taking .833 seconds (same as the 4th attack), it needs to be .666 seconds. Then, the overall attack chain will be 3.166 seconds = 19 five-attack chains per minute = 95 attacks per minute. Roughly the same overall attacks per minute; less total combos, but with more attacks at higher bonus. We'd actually be getting more powerful by levelling up and that'd be great. :)

EspyLacopa
01-22-2008, 11:41 AM
A difference of +96 more to-hit bonuses, which equals +1 BAB over 96 attacks. Which means no increase or decrease by gaining the 5th attack, only the increase in BAB. That can't be right... :(
That is actually rather interesting.

So, how does that actually work out in game?

Mad_Bombardier
01-22-2008, 11:45 AM
That is actually rather interesting.

So, how does that actually work out in game?Like I said above, if you already hit on a 2, then you are losing 6 hits per minute (6 doses of damage). But, if you are missing at all, then you should be scoring more hits. Except in this case, you are scoring roughly the same number of hits (the only increase is from +1 more BAB) and swinging 6 less times per minute. Extra hits seem to be negated by loss of attacks per minute, so we gain nothing.

MysticTheurge
01-22-2008, 11:53 AM
Which is exactly what it was when Risia was first updated. So, according to the WDA note, nothing has changed? :confused: "in good shape with them" must certainly mean something else.

I'm going go with it meaning "We misunderestimated the problem."

Coldin
01-22-2008, 12:06 PM
Like I said above, if you already hit on a 2, then you are losing 6 hits per minute (6 doses of damage). But, if you are missing at all, then you should be scoring more hits. Except in this case, you are scoring roughly the same number of hits (the only increase is from +1 more BAB) and swinging 6 less times per minute. Extra hits seem to be negated by loss of attacks per minute, so we gain nothing.

Well, we do get a cool new attack to look at, at least. :)

The_Phenx
01-22-2008, 12:34 PM
We can speculate all we want.. but I imagine Q is getting an official clarification for us on the swing progression, since they said they have fixed it.

or he better be... shaking fists...:p

Mad_Bombardier
01-22-2008, 01:06 PM
but I imagine Q is getting an official clarification for us on the swing progression, since they said they have fixed it.

or he better be... shaking fists...:p:D

gpk
01-22-2008, 07:35 PM
Yes a clarification dev post with the final numbers would be greatly appreciated especialy given the fact it's been a topic of much importance to a great many players since the slowdown was noticed on Risia (I'm sure it was noticed elsewhere first).

IMHO BAB15 should confer at least a 10&#37; swing rate increase along with the +10 attack bonus, not be the same speed (or slower) as BAB14 w/ +10 AB for a 5th swing.

Rallie
01-22-2008, 07:51 PM
Heh.. that one's been in the 'release notes' since Mod 4.1

Well, a greater teleport fix was promised back then, but it's never actually been listed in the wda. Now the question is what on earth did they 'fix' if not the part that was broken?

winsom
01-22-2008, 08:35 PM
yes but this is not turn based combat, my opponent is not sitting there waiting for me to finish my 5 attacks before swinging at me, so if attack progression started higher and went lower there would be no incentive whatsoever to not move between swings.

That's a flawed assumption.

DDO could be coded to give the proper D&D attack penalties regardless of a character's movement. Basically, the "wait" period to avoid itterative penalties would be long enough of a time for a standing or moving-and-attacking character to complete all attack animations. Thus the person that waits is waiting "too long" and is missing out on chances to deal damage. Poor strategy.

Consider that even with proper itterative attack penalties, a 20 will always hit. This system works in D&D where characters do not have these high attack bonuses that low level characters have in DDO. In DDO it would be easy to hit most monsters under the proper D&D system. Some monster ACs could be lowered though, as they should be. Non-elite insects with AC near 30 is just silly.

Turbine could chose to add standing still attack bonuses to counter some of these D&D penalties, although I don't think that fits in with DDO as a action-based game. Turbine allows for frantic combat, but then they reward players for standing still and not taking part in active combat movement... Currently, against most melee monsters, it is better not to move your character at all, as you lose attacks and lose attack bonuses. Stand still and wait for the monster to come back into your attack arcs that are getting the standing still attack bonuses. Its a rather inactive way to fight.

Invalid_86
01-23-2008, 12:30 AM
That's a flawed assumption.

DDO could be coded to give the proper D&D attack penalties regardless of a character's movement. Basically, the "wait" period to avoid itterative penalties would be long enough of a time for a standing or moving-and-attacking character to complete all attack animations. Thus the person that waits is waiting "too long" and is missing out on chances to deal damage. Poor strategy.

Consider that even with proper itterative attack penalties, a 20 will always hit. This system works in D&D where characters do not have these high attack bonuses that low level characters have in DDO. In DDO it would be easy to hit most monsters under the proper D&D system. Some monster ACs could be lowered though, as they should be. Non-elite insects with AC near 30 is just silly.

Turbine could chose to add standing still attack bonuses to counter some of these D&D penalties, although I don't think that fits in with DDO as a action-based game. Turbine allows for frantic combat, but then they reward players for standing still and not taking part in active combat movement... Currently, against most melee monsters, it is better not to move your character at all, as you lose attacks and lose attack bonuses. Stand still and wait for the monster to come back into your attack arcs that are getting the standing still attack bonuses. Its a rather inactive way to fight.

Ding Ding Ding!

Somebody understands the mechanics of properly applied BAB! I was starting to lose hope.

Nightwynde
01-23-2008, 09:03 AM
This reply is to any of the Devs that can help out with this issue. Time and time again Rangers are getting hosed by the horrible lack of spells in our arsenal. I can't help but wonder why there is such a continual fuss over the Clerics, Wizards, Bards, and Sorcs getting more and more spells, when Rangers seem to be left in the dust.

Merfolk's Blessing

Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Grants one ally per caster level a +10 enhancement bonus to Swim, plus one per two caster levels.Ram's Might

Transmutation
Level: Rgr 1
Enlarges the hands of the caster, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.These are the only 2 spells that I have seen added to a Ranger's spell list. How about giving Rangers some more usefull spells that are only available to the Ranger class. Give us some spells that would make Rangers more likely to be choosen for groups. There are many times that every class for LFM is open for a new group except Rangers, because we really don't have much to offer a group other than Barkskin. We need more usefull spells, to give Rangers that competative edge that we need for questing, and to get more groups. Personally, I would also like to hear what other rangers out there have to say about this terrible spell oversight. Rangers only got access to 2 of the 16 new spells that I have seen in this post. Totally not fair.

binnsr
01-23-2008, 09:21 AM
Turbine could chose to add standing still attack bonuses to counter some of these D&D penalties, although I don't think that fits in with DDO as a action-based game. Turbine allows for frantic combat, but then they reward players for standing still and not taking part in active combat movement... Currently, against most melee monsters, it is better not to move your character at all, as you lose attacks and lose attack bonuses. Stand still and wait for the monster to come back into your attack arcs that are getting the standing still attack bonuses. Its a rather inactive way to fight.

Back in Beta, there was no penalty for moving while attacking, nor did you lose your extra attack bonuses .. the result was nearly everyone used fps tactics (i.e. circle-strafing) to slaughter poor innocent mobs before they could turn around. If you were circling fast enough, you were always behind them - with the flanking bonus, your full attack progression and no movement penalties.

They put the -4 tohit penalty in and stripped the iterative attack bonuses while moving to counter that trend..

If you like to bunnyhop like the crackhead kobolds, then sink feats into the spring attack chain.

gpk
01-23-2008, 09:35 AM
This reply is to any of the Devs that can help out with this issue. Time and time again Rangers are getting hosed by the horrible lack of spells in our arsenal. I can't help but wonder why there is such a continual fuss over the Clerics, Wizards, Bards, and Sorcs getting more and more spells, when Rangers seem to be left in the dust.

Merfolk's Blessing

Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Grants one ally per caster level a +10 enhancement bonus to Swim, plus one per two caster levels.Ram's Might

Transmutation
Level: Rgr 1
Enlarges the hands of the caster, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.These are the only 2 spells that I have seen added to a Ranger's spell list. How about giving Rangers some more usefull spells that are only available to the Ranger class. Give us some spells that would make Rangers more likely to be choosen for groups. There are many times that every class for LFM is open for a new group except Rangers, because we really don't have much to offer a group other than Barkskin. We need more usefull spells, to give Rangers that competative edge that we need for questing, and to get more groups. Personally, I would also like to hear what other rangers out there have to say about this terrible spell oversight. Rangers only got access to 2 of the 16 new spells that I have seen in this post. Totally not fair.

Well Ram's might alone, a totally un-pnp implementation I might add, is quite strong. I was very surprised my Ranger would be getting it in Mod6. Along with the tempest enhancement PRC class and STWF (if you meet dex) and Oversize TWF added to the feat list I can't really complain. Eladrin said STWF might even be given for free to Rangers in the future but that seems unlikely to me.

It's still surprising to me Rangers got "love" before Paladins and Rogs, not saying they didn't need some too but in my experience Rangers are the more powerful m&#234;l&#233;e combatants of the three. The favorite Enemies cover most of the high threat mobs you're likely to face: Giants, Undead, Evil Outsider and a 4th at lev 15.
+8 extra base damage vs Fav enemies at 15 and cheap enhancements to boost damage, ac, saves (AB a bit more costly) put Rangers quite a bit ahead of Paladins in m&#234;l&#233;e prowess, imho. A very nice Ram's might implementation is just icing on the cake. I wouldn't be surprised if all those ppl frantically rolling sorcs and wizards in mod5 are going to be playing Rangers if they want a m&#234;l&#233;e class (assuming they have Barbarians already)

If you think Rangers got hosed play a Paladin :rolleyes:

Mad_Bombardier
01-23-2008, 09:36 AM
That's a flawed assumption.

DDO could be coded to give the proper D&D attack penalties regardless of a character's movement. Basically, the "wait" period to avoid itterative penalties would be long enough of a time for a standing or moving-and-attacking character to complete all attack animations. Thus the person that waits is waiting "too long" and is missing out on chances to deal damage. Poor strategy.If you really couldn't hit with later attacks and had a timer on attacking (say 3 seconds), why would you risk staying in melee range and taking damage to only have a minute chance at hitting something a third/fourth time? The strategy would be:
swing-swing, run away, move around for 2 more seconds to avoid any contact/mob attacks, re-engage, swing-swing, repeat.

It's a mob AI exploit that is not exactly like, but similar to, what happened in Beta as described by binnsr above.


If you think Rangers got hosed play a Paladin :rolleyes:Because +5 Holy Burst weapons grow on trees. :rolleyes: That's a juicy spell upgrade, right there. And according to Dev posts, more Paly love to come in Mod7.

Coldin
01-23-2008, 09:43 AM
Currently, against most melee monsters, it is better not to move your character at all, as you lose attacks and lose attack bonuses. Stand still and wait for the monster to come back into your attack arcs that are getting the standing still attack bonuses. Its a rather inactive way to fight.

My counter to this is that a player can still tumble while keeping all those nice bonuses. Sure, it's not as quick as moving around and repetively swinging, but it can be much more effective. Even players without any ranks in tumble can still perform the basic hop and advance on thier foe or move slightly to the side.

gpk
01-23-2008, 09:49 AM
Because +5 Holy Burst weapons grow on trees. :rolleyes: That's a juicy spell upgrade, right there. And according to Dev posts, more Paly love to come in Mod7.

It's a marginal upgrade at best that favors scimitar, rapier and khopesh users.

A plain jane vanilla lowly +1 greater bane min lev 6 > +5 holy burst.

For DR/good+cold iron or dr/good (lowbie Devils) it might be better than what some people have, hope they don't mind filling their inventory with non stacking 1200gp a pop "components" or making may trips to House J. I recall a while back people suggested different material components for Holy Sword, i.e. Blessed Silver Khopesh, a great suggestion that has been ignored.

My suggestion? Make it a +5 Holy Pure good version instead of Burst and make components of various meterials (cold iron, silver, adamantine,byeshk) stack or remove them altogether if you can't.

P.S. Please stop with the "coming in Mod7" responses already...

ArkoHighStar
01-23-2008, 09:52 AM
If you really couldn't hit with later attacks and had a timer on attacking (say 3 seconds), why would you risk staying in melee range and taking damage to only have a minute chance at hitting something a third/fourth time? The strategy would be:
swing-swing, run away, move around for 2 more seconds to avoid any contact/mob attacks, re-engage, swing-swing, repeat.

It's a mob AI exploit that is not exactly like, but similar to, what happened in Beta as described by binnsr above.

Because +5 Holy Burst weapons grow on trees. :rolleyes: That's a juicy spell upgrade, right there. And according to Dev posts, more Paly love to come in Mod7.


agreed if anyone remembers the swing bug early in the game where you could repeat your first swing over and over even without the bonus you were swinging more often and killing faster.
If I had full bab on first hit I would be darting in and out of enemy range waiting for the timer to reset, given a small amount of time those who have the twitch skills would have it down to a fine art and basically always hit full bab, and would never see the progression, and they would still kill faster than someone swinging through the chain of attacks.

MysticTheurge
01-23-2008, 09:55 AM
The strategy would be:
swing-swing, run away, move around for 2 more seconds to avoid any contact/mob attacks, re-engage, swing-swing, repeat.

The alternative would be to pin you in place for a certain length of time after you attack, unless you had Spring Attack. (Or, alternatively, give a movement penalty while attacking, like we have for casting spells.)

Mad_Bombardier
01-23-2008, 10:58 AM
hope they don't mind filling their inventory with non stacking 1200gp a pop "components" or making may trips to House J. I recall a while back people suggested different material components for Holy Sword, i.e. Blessed Silver Khopesh, a great suggestion that has been ignored.

My suggestion? Make it a +5 Holy Pure good version instead of Burst and make components of various meterials (cold iron, silver, adamantine,byeshk) stack or remove them altogether if you can't.

P.S. Please stop with the "coming in Mod7" responses already...The component cost does not bother me. I, too, would like them to be stackable. Perhaps just replace the weapon with a stackable, special component of the same cost. And the Silver Flame should definitely offer Blessed Silver components, too. :) Whether that should be tied to favor (as with their special arrows) is up for debate. But, I like Holy Burst. Who cares if it favors certain weapon types? Use those weapons!


P.S. When Devs recant and say Paly love is not coming in Mod 7, I will stop using that response. ;) Bards got their Update, Rangers now get their Mod. Be happy that Devs have told us that Palys are next in the queue.

MysticTheurge
01-23-2008, 11:06 AM
The component cost does not bother me.

It bothers me. I'd like to see it replaced with a pop-up menu (a la Resist Energy) that just lets you choose what kind to create.

There's nothing in the D&D spell that would suggest that you need to carry a specially prepared weapon. In fact, it makes it quite clear that you can cast it on any of your existing weapons and convert it to the appropriate enchantments.

gpk
01-23-2008, 11:17 AM
The component cost does not bother me. I, too, would like them to be stackable. Perhaps just replace the weapon with a stackable, special component of the same cost. And the Silver Flame should definitely offer Blessed Silver components, too. :) Whether that should be tied to favor (as with their special arrows) is up for debate. But, I like Holy Burst. Who cares if it favors certain weapon types? Use those weapons!

Well for starters arguably the best one hander is a Khopesh, but not everyone has the feat for it or others weant a different route (finesse, enhancements etc).
Burst effects favor different weapons more and that's not really fair for all users. Also depending on your race+faith+enhancements you might have different favored weapons, axes for dwarves, longswords/rapiers for elves, rapiers/shortswords for drow elves.

Worst of all, the best +5 holy burst is still inferior to a +1 greater bane, more so for non scims,rapiers,khopeshes. To make it a potentially useful spell for all users and match a lowly +1 greater bane it would be better to make it a +5 holy material WeapType of pure good.



P.S. When Devs recant and say Paly love is not coming in Mod 7, I will stop using that response. ;) Bards got their Update, Rangers now get their Mod. Be happy that Devs have told us that Palys are next in the queue.

Well when you get to a bakery, see a "now serving : 4" sign displayed, take a numbered ticket reading "53" are you still happy your in the queue? "Coming in mod7" only serves to remind us of how long we've waited and how much longer we will wait, an unacceptable amount of time :(

EspyLacopa
01-23-2008, 11:21 AM
In fact, it makes it quite clear that you can cast it on any of your existing weapons and convert it to the appropriate enchantments.
And when they figure THAT out, they can add in implementation for Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Magic Vestment, and other weapon/armor enhancing spells.

gpk
01-23-2008, 11:30 AM
And when they figure THAT out, they can add in implementation for Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Magic Vestment, and other weapon/armor enhancing spells.

And Bless Weapon ;)
it seems that Holy Sword is just a glorified Flame Arrow ATM.

It's pretty clear that the DDO engine cannot temporarily add different properties to a weapon (or all equipped weapons?)
I think this is is one of the major possible reason why the loot tables were altered a while back to allow higher plus weapons and armor to drop. On a side note, adding a dozen+ new suffixes and prefixes, 95&#37; of them being of questionable value mostly negates this "made up for it with better random loot" factor.

Mad_Bombardier
01-23-2008, 11:36 AM
It bothers me. I'd like to see it replaced with a pop-up menu (a la Resist Energy) that just lets you choose what kind to create.

There's nothing in the D&D spell that would suggest that you need to carry a specially prepared weapon. In fact, it makes it quite clear that you can cast it on any of your existing weapons and convert it to the appropriate enchantments.The cost does not bother me. See above where I said the weapon should go away. ;) It could be just like Flame Arrow from a wand, conjuring an weapon from nothing.

And, what Espy said. They need to figure out the whole applying effects to existing weapons mechanic. I'm guessing the problem is that some spells like Holy Sword replace effects, others like Align weapon add to the effects.

EspyLacopa
01-23-2008, 11:41 AM
And, what Espy said. They need to figure out the whole applying effects to existing weapons mechanic. I'm guessing the problem is that some spells like Holy Sword replace effects, others like Align weapon add to the effects.
They especially need to figure that out for when they finally get around to adding the Artificer class.

Mad_Bombardier
01-23-2008, 11:44 AM
Yes, a +1 Breater Bane is slightly better for an individual target. But, a Holy Burst works on everything Evil.
Well when you get to a bakery, see a "now serving : 4" sign displayed, take a numbered ticket reading "53" are you still happy your in the queue? "Coming in mod7" only serves to remind us of how long we've waited and how much longer we will wait, an unacceptable amount of time :(Except that the sign doesn't say "now serving: 4." It says "now serving: 52" and you have ticket number 53! That means you're next. ;) No one else is between you and your turn. The time of the wait is a different discussion that has to do with the current Development cycle.

(ok, the anniversary event is between now and then. But, I doubt any particular class is getting special attention for that game wide event/Update.)

MysticTheurge
01-23-2008, 12:09 PM
And when they figure THAT out, they can add in implementation for Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Magic Vestment, and other weapon/armor enhancing spells.

They don't even need to figure that out for Holy Sword. Because Holy Sword doesn't add to existing effects, it overwrites them.

You could even just make it as simple as:

Pop-up Window offers various materials (Adamantine, Cold Iron, Silver) and then creates a weapon in your inventory which is the same type (Rapier, Longsword, Kopesh, etc.) as the weapon you're wielding when you cast the spell. In fact, that's definitely how the spell should work.

Tolero
01-23-2008, 01:46 PM
Q & Tolero: PLEASE use the dev tracker! I like being able to quickly jump to the dev posts.

There's something wrong with it?

Or is this in relation to the "your posts aren't appearing in the tracker" comment I get from time to time?

We do have the ability to flag when our posts appear and don't appear in the tracker. I try not to spam it too much with my moderation stuff, so sometimes I forget to flag my posts to appear for more "on topic" dev tracker material. I'll try catch myself more often :)

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2008, 02:01 PM
There's something wrong with it?

Or is this in relation to the "your posts aren't appearing in the tracker" comment I get from time to time?

We do have the ability to flag when our posts appear and don't appear in the tracker. I try not to spam it too much with my moderation stuff, so sometimes I forget to flag my posts to appear for more "on topic" dev tracker material. I'll try catch myself more often :)

You will never get your server loudspeaker installed if you don't remember to tag your posts...

MysticTheurge
01-23-2008, 02:01 PM
I'll try catch myself more often :)

Good! We wouldn't want to have to send you where Quarion's going after this whole Spell Component Bag Debacle.

Cowdenicus
01-23-2008, 02:04 PM
Good! We wouldn't want to have to send you where Quarion's going after this whole Spell Component Bag Debacle.

The collection is almost complete........

(I bet Quarion never imagined that Greater Teleport was going to work like this...... He wont even be able to Word of Recall back when we get done with him.....) :eek:

Cowdenicus
01-23-2008, 02:05 PM
You will never get your server loudspeaker installed if you don't remember to tag your posts...

That is All :)

Ustice
01-23-2008, 03:08 PM
Speaking of Forum issues, Tolero... Can we PLEASE get a favicon again. A RSS feed for the Dev Tracker (at the least) would be nice too...

Drider
01-23-2008, 03:26 PM
Or is this in relation to the "your posts aren't appearing in the tracker" comment I get from time to time?




I think most would prefer you just have your posts show up :)

Primalhowl
01-23-2008, 05:36 PM
By and large, when I come to the forums, I check the Dev Tracker first to see if any "official" discussion has occurred. As a result, I am more than willing to put up with the entire list of moderated posts as long as I can see which OTHER posts have had a response from a Dev and/or the terrific twosome (aka Tolero and Quarion).

But as I only have a limited amount of time to read the forums, I like to read the important stuff first. So if y'all don't flag your posts, it makes it alot harder to find them...

Rallie
01-23-2008, 07:49 PM
There's something wrong with it?

Or is this in relation to the "your posts aren't appearing in the tracker" comment I get from time to time?

We do have the ability to flag when our posts appear and don't appear in the tracker. I try not to spam it too much with my moderation stuff, so sometimes I forget to flag my posts to appear for more "on topic" dev tracker material. I'll try catch myself more often :)

Exactly. It seems like a lot of good comments get buried in the thread and left out of the dev tracker, including posts by yourself and Q in this thread on the topic of the spell component bags. It would be great if you would consider dev tracker ON to be the default, and only exclude posts that you specifically think shouldn't be included for some reason.

gpk
01-23-2008, 08:53 PM
Yes, a +1 Breater Bane is slightly better for an individual target. But, a Holy Burst works on everything Evil.Except that the sign doesn't say "now serving: 4." It says "now serving: 52" and you have ticket number 53! That means you're next. ;) No one else is between you and your turn. The time of the wait is a different discussion that has to do with the current Development cycle.

(ok, the anniversary event is between now and then. But, I doubt any particular class is getting special attention for that game wide event/Update.)

Well for all intent and purpose if it's "now serving:4", you have a #7 ticket it may as well be 700 if it takes a year to get to #7 from #4.

When the baker keeps getting feeding you the "you're next" canned response is quite frustrating when you see the baker on the phone gossiping with her girlfriend, when she could be bagging the 2 little pastries you've beein waiting for all this time. The more she tells you "I'll be with you soon" or "You're Next" the the more insulting it becomes.

In fact I'm wrong, it's not me who takes the ticket, the baker assigns the ticket without even spending 10 seconds to see what customer needs what and who can be served best.

winsom
01-23-2008, 11:50 PM
Thats an insightful reminiscence of Beta and early-DDO, but monster AI has been significantly upgraded at least twice since then. Circle-strafing no longer works well, even with +20&#37; striding.. Many monsters (all?) have speed up their movement significantly since I last played 7 months ago. The AI changes are a great change. I was pleasantly surprised when a large scorpion ran down my +15% move-fleeing character and slaughtered her.

The old mechanics that were put in place to service the older-style of AI are now out-dated and show clumsy incompatibility with what could otherwise play out as a truer-to-D&D experience of combat mechanics. There should no longer be any standing-still attack bonuses -- they don't fit well with DDO's movement-action style, don't fit with D&D mechanics, and they break game balance. Monster ACs have to be really inflated when we attack in melee very quickly (at full damage) and get +5 and +10 attack bonuses rather than penalties. The -4 penalty when moving-penalty, and less attack animations, already give us reasons not to attack while moving.

DMG p26: "Attack rolls can be boring if a player thinks that hitting a foe is a foregone conclusion or that his character has no chance to hit. One way the rules address this potential problem is be providing decreasing attack bonuses for multiple attacks."

By this statement we can construct game-logic wherein the game becomes less fun if it is a foregone conclusion that a monster seems to always hit a character. If DDO monsters had decreasing attack values (over a short period of time) then our characters' armor class values would be properly meaningful.


Back in Beta, there was no penalty for moving while attacking, nor did you lose your extra attack bonuses .. the result was nearly everyone used fps tactics (i.e. circle-strafing) to slaughter poor innocent mobs before they could turn around. If you were circling fast enough, you were always behind them - with the flanking bonus, your full attack progression and no movement penalties.

They put the -4 tohit penalty in and stripped the iterative attack bonuses while moving to counter that trend..

If you like to bunnyhop like the crackhead kobolds, then sink feats into the spring attack chain.

binnsr
01-24-2008, 12:39 AM
Thats an insightful reminiscence of Beta and early-DDO, but monster AI has been significantly upgraded at least twice since then. Circle-strafing no longer works well, even with +20% striding.. Many monsters (all?) have speed up their movement significantly since I last played 7 months ago. The AI changes are a great change.
I wasn't trying to say that its still a valid tactic .. was just giving you the reasons the changes to attack-on-the-move were made in the first place.


I was pleasantly surprised when a large scorpion ran down my +15% move-fleeing character and slaughtered her.
And were you still pleasantly surprised when you went into the orchard and *everything* can outrun haste? :)

winsom
01-25-2008, 01:26 AM
And were you still pleasantly surprised when you went into the orchard and *everything* can outrun haste? :)

Only been there a few times so far, with my wizard, so I hadn't noticed yet. Come to think of it, a Dread Wraith was slamming me in the back while I was 20&#37; striding towards a crypt door.

In the D&D Monster Manual the Dread Wraith's flying speed is twice the normal human movement rate.
I figure it's about time that Turbine gives us monsters that are almost as fast as they should be.

Its possible that some creatures might be a bit too fast. A spider the same size of a horse is supposed to move at the same speed of a human. But a scorpion of the same size is significantly faster in the D&D rules.

CDevil
01-25-2008, 01:42 AM
Thats an insightful reminiscence of Beta and early-DDO, but monster AI has been significantly upgraded at least twice since then. Circle-strafing no longer works well, even with +20% striding.. Many monsters (all?) have speed up their movement significantly since I last played 7 months ago. The AI changes are a great change. I was pleasantly surprised when a large scorpion ran down my +15% move-fleeing character and slaughtered her.

While I agree that improving the monster AI is a good thing, I don't know that having my character run down and slaughtered would qualify as "pleasant." To be honest, I think a lot of creatures 1) have been sped up TOO much, and 2) many haven't been made to suffer appropriate movement or action penalties for terrain.

1.) Especially in higher level areas, it seems like EVERYTHING is in overdrive. I've lost count of the number of times I've been hasted (or watched others with high speed enhancements) and been mowed down because whatever was behind me was on me like a coat of paint. I agree some creatures should be fast, but not everything should be able to keep up with or overrun us. It may not be an urgent priority, but it DEFINITELY should be looked at at some point.

2.) My best example of this is in the lighthouse quest in the harbor. The areas in the quest with shallow water slow characters down to about half movement rate, but the undead mobs (especially the zombies, which move WAY too fast to begin with) continue at their normal pace. They should be slowed as much as the characters are.

Another example would be almost any area with water deep enough to swim in and lizard men. Swimming characters are incapable of attacking or spellcasting, yet a swimming lizardman will suddenly assume a regular on-land stance and engage in melee, spellcasting, or even ranged attacks. The argument that they can do this because of their race doesn't hold water (er... pardon the pun), as lizard men are amphibious, not aquatic.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud the tweaks being done to make things more of a challenge. My issue is that I think some things are being overdone and creating problems on the opposite side of the fence.

My 2 coppers on it, anyhow.

GrayOldDruid
01-25-2008, 06:31 AM
Weekly Development Activities

NEW When stunned, Ogre Magi will be so stunned they can no longer move around.

NEW When dazed, monsters will be so dazed they can no longer attack.


Stunned and Dazed monsters get fixed... What about Paralyzed Monsters? You know, those that still skate around like very un-paralyzed ballerinas?


Good updates... just wondering about a bug...

Paralyzed enemies still skate around - very annoying when you are paralyzing them inside a firewall :D or, the paralyzed enemy advances up to your face... which is exactly where you don't want them.

Any idea when / if this will be fixed?

Every quest I use the paralyzer I get someone asking "How can they move when paralyzed??"

MysticTheurge
01-25-2008, 08:18 AM
Another example would be almost any area with water deep enough to swim in and lizard men. Swimming characters are incapable of attacking or spellcasting, yet a swimming lizardman will suddenly assume a regular on-land stance and engage in melee, spellcasting, or even ranged attacks. The argument that they can do this because of their race doesn't hold water (er... pardon the pun), as lizard men are amphibious, not aquatic.

Troglodytes? DDO doesn't have any lizardmen, I don't think.

And further, I don't think I've seen anything attack from the water for about three or four modules now. Everything that hits the water respawns instead these days. I don't love the solution, but at least they're not standing in the water killing you.

Aesop
01-25-2008, 08:25 AM
Troglodytes? DDO doesn't have any lizardmen, I don't think.

And further, I don't think I've seen anything attack from the water for about three or four modules now. Everything that hits the water respawns instead these days. I don't love the solution, but at least they're not standing in the water killing you.

I'd perfer Underwater Combat... even if it slowed you down 40% and caused elemental spell damage to take a -30% hit I'd still like to have it available. and I hate respawning... a lot

Aesop

EspyLacopa
01-25-2008, 08:34 AM
I'd perfer Underwater Combat... even if it slowed you down 40% and caused elemental spell damage to take a -30% hit I'd still like to have it available. and I hate respawning... a lot

Aesop
I wouldn't want Underwater combat until we get weapons like Spears and Tridents, and other such weapons that don't take penalties underwater.

Underwater combat would also be nice since it'd mean we may get to fight Water Elementals.

ahpook
01-25-2008, 09:52 AM
Exactly. It seems like a lot of good comments get buried in the thread and left out of the dev tracker, including posts by yourself and Q in this thread on the topic of the spell component bags. It would be great if you would consider dev tracker ON to be the default, and only exclude posts that you specifically think shouldn't be included for some reason.

Well they have KK and GC for moderation. Why not use those accounts for ALL moderation and then Tolero and Quarion can leave their posts always visible since they won't ever be moderation related? Also has the benefit of leaving moderation less personal for them since it won't be Tolero or Quarion telling people to clean up their act.

ahpook
01-25-2008, 09:55 AM
I wasn't trying to say that its still a valid tactic .. was just giving you the reasons the changes to attack-on-the-move were made in the first place.


And were you still pleasantly surprised when you went into the orchard and *everything* can outrun haste? :)

Slight exageration here. Only wraiths can keep up with haste. Carrion feeders are next fastest and they can be left behind with 30% striders. Everything else is even slower. Based on the srd20 speed for wraiths that seems entirely reasonable. This one the devs got right IMHO.

binnsr
01-25-2008, 09:58 AM
Slight exageration here. Only wraiths can keep up with haste. Carrion feeders are next fastest and they can be left behind with 30% striders. Everything else is even slower. Based on the srd20 speed for wraiths that seems entirely reasonable. This one the devs got right IMHO.
are you sure about that? my cleric has 30% striders and is always having carrion feeders, GURs and other random critters nipping at her heels.. although, yes, the human folk and most of the skeletons out there do get left behind quite quickly

ahpook
01-25-2008, 10:29 AM
are you sure about that? my cleric has 30% striders and is always having carrion feeders, GURs and other random critters nipping at her heels.. although, yes, the human folk and most of the skeletons out there do get left behind quite quickly

I may be off on GURs and Carrion feeders and they might be able to match 30% but I am certain that they get left behind with haste.

moorewr
01-25-2008, 11:10 AM
I have noticed that the rats do just about keep up with hasted humanoids. Hard to judge how fast they should move since obviously magic is behind the undead rats as well as the giant scorpions - who otherwise would lie down and die since insect respiration doesn't scale above the size of a football.

Even so haste is a shield of invulnerability in all of the explorer zones.

If I was starting DDO from scratch, and this was 2005...
Running would to have a breath meter, so we didn't just endlessly ping around open spaces like a pinball. Make it 60 seconds/+-CON modifier of continuous running should make you fatigued until you stand still for a few seconds (15/+-CON modifer?). The effect would be that players would watch their meter and find a stopping point every minute to reset the meter.

bobbryan2
01-25-2008, 11:16 AM
Even so haste is a shield of invulnerability in all of the explorer zones.

Uh...

it's not a shield of invulnerability at all. You can easily get jacked by wraiths when running hasted.

moorewr
01-25-2008, 11:22 AM
Uh...

it's not a shield of invulnerability at all. You can easily get jacked by wraiths when running hasted.

Well, I'm sure that's possible, but I don't find them all that threatening. I've done about 4000 slayer with three characters in there, and I haven't been killed by a wraith yet. My deaths were all when I chose to stick and and fight, or when my fighter got seperated and ran out of haste clickies...

bobbryan2
01-25-2008, 11:28 AM
Well, I'm sure that's possible, but I don't find them all that threatening. I've done about 4000 slayer with three characters in there, and I haven't been killed by a wraith yet. My deaths were all when I chose to stick and and fight, or when my fighter got seperated and ran out of haste clickies...

Well, they shouldn't BE that threatening... otherwise running to quests would be a real pain. But even so, I know plenty of people that run to Ghosts of Perdition and they have 5-10 con damage.

Is your point that simply running to locations should actually be dangerous? Because if so, I disagree strongly.

Kerr
01-25-2008, 01:03 PM
If I was starting DDO from scratch, and this was 2005...
Running would to have a breath meter, so we didn't just endlessly ping around open spaces like a pinball. Make it 60 seconds/+-CON modifier of continuous running should make you fatigued until you stand still for a few seconds (15/+-CON modifer?). The effect would be that players would watch their meter and find a stopping point every minute to reset the meter.

Whoop, whoop, whoop!!! *Big flashing red light*

Careful there, I was making the same suggestion and thought and people were looking for a tree and a rope to lynch me from. Then they complained they didn't want any realism in their fantasy game. Then they killed my puppy. It was an ugly mess.

EspyLacopa
01-25-2008, 01:08 PM
Whoop, whoop, whoop!!! *Big flashing red light*

Careful there, I was making the same suggestion and thought and people were looking for a tree and a rope to lynch me from. Then they complained they didn't want any realism in their fantasy game. Then they killed my puppy. It was an ugly mess.

That system works well in PnP, because walking from town to town doesn't take much real time: the GM just says you've arrived, or instead perhaps encountered random beasties or some such on the way.

In combat though, it has limited usefulness, mostly to let enemies run away. Or the players. . .

Also: You shouldn't institute such a system without Nonlethal Damage, otherwise all Warforged could still run indefinitely *since they don't tire*. The only downside Warforged deal with from forced running is nonlethal damage in PnP.

moorewr
01-25-2008, 01:21 PM
Whoop, whoop, whoop!!! *Big flashing red light*

Careful there, I was making the same suggestion and thought and people were looking for a tree and a rope to lynch me from. Then they complained they didn't want any realism in their fantasy game. Then they killed my puppy. It was an ugly mess.

I can relate! I suggested balance checks when you hit the ground after a fall a couple months back and they called for la Madame Guillotine. Rough scene. :)

(It's been pointed out there's no PnP rule, but then, in PnP I always assumed you were down after a huge fall, and had to get up. Durh)

People who don't want ANY realism should go buy a modern art sculpture and stare at it all day. There's your game.

moorewr
01-25-2008, 01:24 PM
Well, they shouldn't BE that threatening... otherwise running to quests would be a real pain. But even so, I know plenty of people that run to Ghosts of Perdition and they have 5-10 con damage.

Is your point that simply running to locations should actually be dangerous? Because if so, I disagree strongly.

No, my point is that a) the wraiths aren't very threatening, and b) you ought not be able to run indefinitely. Also, an explorer zone is supposed to be dangerous.. so what are you disagreeing with? The idea of a quest in an explorer zone?

paul1devries
01-25-2008, 02:42 PM
Why oh why oh why can we not get the bloody arrows stacking in greater than 100 yet? This surely cannot be that hard and should be very easy and make any bow/crossbow user extremely happy!!!!!!!!

HumanJHawkins
01-25-2008, 02:57 PM
Why oh why oh why can we not get the bloody arrows stacking in greater than 100 yet? This surely cannot be that hard and should be very easy and make any bow/crossbow user extremely happy!!!!!!!!

I'm for it too, but I think the reason is that this would remove a long-standing "cost" of being an archer. Currently, one of the aspects to being a good archer is extreme inventory management so you can carry all of the different types of arrows you might need. Clearly this is unfair, considering that caster can carry tons of components, and fighters can carry dozens of giant axes. But I am guessing this is being debated as a fundamental change to the class (even though it seems like an obvious good idea).

Either that, or they are looking into a more comprehensive/better solution like having some sort of "Quiver of Holding" that would let you put 20 different types of arrows into one inventory slot. If, for example, this is planned for mod 7, then it would be really difficult to undo the increase of stack size if that were desired at the time... You would have to have some sort of code to break apart stacks and put them into the quiver. Blah blah blah... It's a bummer, but there are probably good reasons.

ahpook
01-25-2008, 02:57 PM
I have noticed that the rats do just about keep up with hasted humanoids. Hard to judge how fast they should move since obviously magic is behind the undead rats as well as the giant scorpions - who otherwise would lie down and die since insect respiration doesn't scale above the size of a football.

Even so haste is a shield of invulnerability in all of the explorer zones.

If I was starting DDO from scratch, and this was 2005...
Running would to have a breath meter, so we didn't just endlessly ping around open spaces like a pinball. Make it 60 seconds/+-CON modifier of continuous running should make you fatigued until you stand still for a few seconds (15/+-CON modifer?). The effect would be that players would watch their meter and find a stopping point every minute to reset the meter.

Yeah, nothing was more disheartening to my rogue when he found this out. He slowly stealthed to the chest in the GC avoiding detection and waiting for the opportunity to open the chest when the giants were turned the other way. He got the loot and got away undetected. It was the most roguishly thing he had done. Next day he runs with a fighter who quaffs a haste potion, runs in grabs the goods and recalls with out worrying a damn thing about the giants he had stirred up. :(

Kerr
01-25-2008, 04:40 PM
That system works well in PnP, because walking from town to town doesn't take much real time: the GM just says you've arrived, or instead perhaps encountered random beasties or some such on the way.

In combat though, it has limited usefulness, mostly to let enemies run away. Or the players. . .

Also: You shouldn't institute such a system without Nonlethal Damage, otherwise all Warforged could still run indefinitely *since they don't tire*. The only downside Warforged deal with from forced running is nonlethal damage in PnP.

Except magical effects, such as Haste, could override a stamina counter while it's active. See, there would be ways around it, not just a penalty without options.

moorewr
01-25-2008, 04:45 PM
Except magical effects, such as Haste, could override a stamina counter while it's active. See, there would be ways around it, not just a penalty without options.

I envisioned it like the breath meter - stop running, meter fades away.. in the Orchard, for example, you'd step into a crypt or leap off a cliff and regroup for a few seconds, then off you go before the dread wraith can wind his way down the cow-track on the mountain side. Silly dread wraiths.

Also, all the normal routes to a restore would clear the fatigue - pots, wands, clickies, unyielding sovereignty...

Good point about warforged up above - no fatigue for them, or very slow fatigue like their breath meter underwater.

So, there you have it. If I was the lead developer, you'd be falling over and out of breath. :)

EspyLacopa
01-25-2008, 04:51 PM
I envisioned it like the breath meter - stop running, meter fades away.. in the Orchard, for example, you'd step into a crypt or leap off a cliff and regroup for a few seconds, then off you go before the dread wraith can wind his way down the cow-track on the mountain side. Silly dread wraiths.

Also, all the normal routes to a restore would clear the fatigue - pots, wands, clickies, unyielding sovereignty...

Good point about warforged up above - no fatigue for them, or very slow fatigue like their breath meter underwater.

So, there you have it. If I was the lead developer, you'd be falling over and out of breath. :)

Or. . .
Do this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run

You know, the actual rules that the game is based on.

And for the penalties for non-running movement over time:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#forcedMarch

And of course, it should be pointed out that since eliminating the nonlethal damage from hustling for long periods of time means things like Trolls and other creatures with Fast Healing can overtake parties rather easily. . .

moorewr
01-25-2008, 08:25 PM
Or. . .
Do this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run

You know, the actual rules that the game is based on.


You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

6 seconds * CON = pretty close to what I was saying, but the results of the DC failure are more severe in a realtime MMO setting.