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Yukiko
01-18-2008, 09:40 AM
Anyone else uneasy with the fact that anyone with 2-3 levels of rogue can seem to disarm traps with a high rate of success?

Sorry to say it, but maybe we should start applying the same multiclass penalties in DDO that exist in the book version as we more forward with complicated new classes and skills.

KoboldKiller
01-18-2008, 09:44 AM
In a way I agree with you, there's no way a multi-class should be as effective as a pure. The problem in DDO is that unless you can bring something else to the party you don't get in (Rogues and Rangers). I have alwyas found it funny though that my Ranger/Rogue at times, has been able to out "Rogue" the pure in the group.

ArkoHighStar
01-18-2008, 09:45 AM
the penalty is that they have to spend double skill points to keep them up, thus limiting them to trapsmithing, with more deadly traps some builds are going to have issues making their reflex saves. Many wiz/rogues will probably have to take the new feat to use int for reflex instead of dex. Rogues are more than just trapsmiths, and if I want the best trapsmith in the game I would make a cleric with 2 levels of rogue

Aspenor
01-18-2008, 09:47 AM
Anyone else uneasy with the fact that anyone with 2-3 levels of rogue can seem to disarm traps with a high rate of success?

Sorry to say it, but maybe we should start applying the same multiclass penalties in DDO that exist in the book version as we more forward with complicated new classes and skills.

Rogues can do a lot more than disarm traps. Besides, many of those MC splash builds cannot do the same things a full rogue can do.

Many cannot handle Von 5 elite traps. Many don't open locks nearly as efficiently. Many do not have UMD scores as high as a full rogue. They don't have improved evasion, and won't have access to the new rogue special abilities.

MC rogues already suffer multiclass penalties for traps. They have access to only the lowest tier of trap enhancements, and have to spend double skill points on their traps skills.

Yukiko
01-18-2008, 09:48 AM
the penalty is that they have to spend double skill points to keep them up

Thats not true if the rogue levels are taken later on in the creation of the chr.
For example a lvl 10 ranger can take one level of rogue at level 11 and spend all of his 12 skill points in disable or search without the cross class penalty. In DDO that is..

Aspenor
01-18-2008, 09:50 AM
Thats not true if the rogue levels are taken later on in the creation of the chr.
For example a lvl 10 ranger can take one level of rogue at level 11 and spend all of his 12 skill points in disable or search without the cross class penalty. In DDO that is..

You will run out of skill points trying to keep all traps skills maxxed through that method. You will not be as high as a pure rogue spending points at every level.

Yukiko
01-18-2008, 10:00 AM
Well, D&D PnP has skill caps.

For example a 10 ranger 2 rogue would have a base disable skill cap of 8.5
A 12 rogue would have a base disable cap of 15

thats a big diffrance.

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 10:06 AM
the penalty is that they have to spend double skill points to keep them up, thus limiting them to trapsmithing, with more deadly traps some builds are going to have issues making their reflex saves. Many wiz/rogues will probably have to take the new feat to use int for reflex instead of dex. Rogues are more than just trapsmiths, and if I want the best trapsmith in the game I would make a cleric with 2 levels of rogue

Agree.

To OP:
Skill points are skill points in D&D 3.5. Get out of AD&D/other MMO thinking mode, it has no place in DDO. DDO already gives pureclass more advantage over MC characters compared to PnP via the enhancement system. It takes quite a bit of sacrifice to overcome these penalties. If you saw a MC rogue doing highend traps its becasue he put alot into it. There is absolutely no reason other than your own perception that a pure class rogue should be a better trapsmith than a MC rogue other than class feat. Period.

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 10:10 AM
Well, D&D PnP has skill caps.

For example a 10 ranger 2 rogue would have a base disable skill cap of 8.5
A 12 rogue would have a base disable cap of 15

thats a big diffrance.

I don't think this is correct at all. If you have the class, you have the classes skills list. Max rank I always believed to be based on overall character level. Wheres MT when you need him.

EinarMal
01-18-2008, 10:12 AM
Well, D&D PnP has skill caps.

For example a 10 ranger 2 rogue would have a base disable skill cap of 8.5
A 12 rogue would have a base disable cap of 15

thats a big diffrance.

Umm yeah it doesn't work like that, it works just like DDO.

Mad_Bombardier
01-18-2008, 10:20 AM
PnP has a lot more important skills than we use in DDO. So, with nothing else to use our skill points for, MC rogues can afford to pump cross class ranks to keep max skills. If we needed skill points elsewhere, the full skill MC rogue would not be as viable.

MrCow
01-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Skills Summary

If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point.

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).

The moment you take that level of rogue you open a ton of skills as a class skill. No where does it say you are limited by the class level for that skill.

Shaamis
01-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Well, D&D PnP has skill caps.

For example a 10 ranger 2 rogue would have a base disable skill cap of 8.5
A 12 rogue would have a base disable cap of 15

thats a big diffrance.

I believe that is not correct, because class skills are for a character that has at least one level in that class, the max ranks is character level +3. The character still has to spend double the skill points from their non-class skilled class (bard skill points for disable device skill, for example), but if he has enough skill points, can still keep the max ranks in that skill.

A 7/5 rogue/bard will still be able to have 15 ranks in any skill the rogue (or bard) has as a class skill.

Having the points to maintain max ranks in all of those skills, is the true benefit of a straight class rogue.

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 10:30 AM
PnP has a lot more important skills than we use in DDO. So, with nothing else to use our skill points for, MC rogues can afford to pump cross class ranks to keep max skills. If we needed skill points elsewhere, the full skill MC rogue would not be as viable.

I dont think it would hurt MC rogues viability at all. If anything it would just give Pure near pure class rogues more to do, making them more viable. The characters who only have 1-3 levels of rogue are doing it for the trapsmithing skills alone, having more/different skills would not change or hurt this. Most of these builds use their 11+ levels of w/e other class they have to justify thier viability.

That said I dont think pureclass rogues are unviable in any way, I simply like MCing.

ArkoHighStar
01-18-2008, 10:31 AM
I believe that is not correct, because class skills are for a character that has at least one level in that class, the max ranks is character level +3. The character still has to spend double the skill points from their non-class skilled class (bard skill points for disable device skill, for example), but if he has enough skill points, can still keep the max ranks in that skill.

A 7/5 rogue/bard will still be able to have 15 ranks in any skill the rogue (or bard) has as a class skill.

Having the points to maintain max ranks in all of those skills, is the true benefit of a straight class rogue.


correct a non human rogue can keep 11 skills maxxed at every level if they have a base int of 16, a human can have 12 skills maxxed. MC rogues can get max 9 skill points to spread around (bards and rangers6 +int bonus) with the same int score. These 9 are really only worth 4 as you need 2 per skill

Mad_Bombardier
01-18-2008, 10:36 AM
I dont think it would hurt MC rogues viability at all. If anything it would just give Pure near pure class rogues more to do, making them more viable. The characters who only have 1-3 levels of rogue are doing it for the trapsmithing skills alone, having more/different skills would not change or hurt this. Most of these builds use their 11+ levels of w/e other class they have to justify thier viability.My point was that Rogue's breadth of skills is more in PnP than it is in DDO. Rogues do less with skills, so it's easier to multiclass and maintain max skill ranks in a few, specialized skills. Likewise, the character's other class would suffer more. If the char puts all their skill points into crossclass rogue skills, their main class suffers. But, in DDO where main class skills are less useful, there is no sacrifice.

Zenako
01-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Doing traps as a multiclass requires some sacrifice of other skills you could be doing. My Elven Ranger/Rogue (14 Base INT) uses his skills to keep some of those skills maxed out. DD, OL takes half his allocation, putting other points in Spot (always), Search (always), Move Silent(Some) and Hide(Some) takes the most of the rest.

As a RANGER, I sacrificed build points putting stats into INT, while DEX and STR and CON might have been better RANGER places to put them. Did I lose a lot, nope, that was the point of the build, being able to be effective at a number of things, Ranger stuff and basic rogue stuff. I do not have access to high level rogue enhancements, and I am 2 levels behind on getting any Max level Ranger love. Price was paid, it was not free.

Yup I can do Cabal Normal fully pimped and pumped. Have zero chance on Elite without access to Rogue enhancments. Any class doing rogue stuff without having a lot of base Skill Points is giving up something else, perhaps something that gimps them a lot, like a caster with no concentration skill. As long as they never get hit, it does not matter, but if the bleep hits the fan, spell failure city.

ArkoHighStar
01-18-2008, 10:44 AM
My point was that Rogue's breadth of skills is more in PnP than it is in DDO. Rogues do less with skills, so it's easier to multiclass and maintain max skill ranks in a few, specialized skills. Likewise, the character's other class would suffer more. If the char puts all their skill points into crossclass rogue skills, their main class suffers. But, in DDO where main class skills are less useful, there is no sacrifice.

it depends if you are dumping all your skills into dd,ol,search and spot, then you are missing some very usable skills like jump, balance, UMD, tumble and haggle.

Balance is very under rated but keeps you from becoming dog chow as you pop right back up after getting hit, jump and tumble are great is used well.

ahpook
01-18-2008, 10:50 AM
Anyone else uneasy with the fact that anyone with 2-3 levels of rogue can seem to disarm traps with a high rate of success?

Sorry to say it, but maybe we should start applying the same multiclass penalties in DDO that exist in the book version as we more forward with complicated new classes and skills.

Sigh. This has been addressed repeatedly. There is more to rogues than disarming traps. If that multiclass rogue can sneak, pick locks, UMD, spot traps, do back stab damage, find traps and hidden doors, tumble, .... as well as full class rogue there is a problem. But being able to do ONE skill is not a problem. If there is any problem it is that those other skills are not as useful in the dungeons. Please quit trying to make Rogue == Trap Monkey.

And those penalties you speak of do not exist.

redoubt
01-18-2008, 10:51 AM
Hows this for sacrifice?

Ranger 13/rogue 1

SF: DD & Nimble Fingers feats (that's 2 out of 5)
Enhancements: ranger/elf search & spot (I think 10ish points is about the lowest you will get the cost to get up to the recommended numbers in the rogue guide.)

Now... a pure rogue will probably take some enhancements too, so that might be less of a factor, but the expense of two feats is pretty high. With a 14 base INT that's pretty much what you have to do to keep up (and that's with getting the vented bracers.)

Oh yeah... There's no UMD in there cause I ran out of skill points.

Mad_Bombardier
01-18-2008, 11:01 AM
it depends if you are dumping all your skills into dd,ol,search and spot, then you are missing some very usable skills like jump, balance, UMD, tumble and haggle.

Balance is very under rated but keeps you from becoming dog chow as you pop right back up after getting hit, jump and tumble are great is used well.Yeah, extra Rogue levels allow you to play catch up with at least 2 of those skills. 2Rogue is not just for Evasion. ;) 3Rogue for sneak attack and even more "catch up" skill points.

Sigmoid
01-18-2008, 11:01 AM
Having both several multiclassed rogue and a pure rogue, I can see the advantages in each. I solo a fair amount and without some rogue skills can't open some simple locks or disarm low level traps. If I want, I can maximize a few rogue skills at double the cost, regardless of what other classes I take. My almost pure rogue does all this and more. If you really really want to differentiate between MC and pure rogues, remove some of the equipment that a MC rogue has to have to compete. Or make the higher level equipment dependent on the number of rogue levels. Perhaps a 2 rogue/12 paladin shouldn't be able to use the best disarming gloves in the game?

Ghost_Aeon
01-18-2008, 11:04 AM
Well, D&D PnP has skill caps.

For example a 10 ranger 2 rogue would have a base disable skill cap of 8.5
A 12 rogue would have a base disable cap of 15

thats a big diffrance.

It's been hit on, but going to comment anyways. If at least one of your classes has it as a class skill, then you can have the max possible ranks for your total levels in that skill (currenly 17), but it still costs you 2 skill points per rank when you level a class that doesn't have the skill on their list.


As far as the whimpering and whining that the MC rogues are 'outperforming' the pures, I think it's DDO's inflated monster hit points, to-hits, and AC's that's hurting the pure rogues. Unless the rogues get a special enhancement at level 16 that says "you can no disarm Turbine's special, rogue-only traps" then it boils down to items and how many skill points you're willing to spend on trapping and locksmithing. Most of the rogue enhancements don't add up to too much more (though 'way of the mechanic' is a step in the right direction).

What I think might help incite people to build a pure rogue is to add a boost to their to-hit when they sneak attack AND attack from behind. Perhaps a +1 per rogue level or per sneak attack die (being +7 for +7d6 sneak attack damage at 13 or +14 for being a level 14 rogue). This may requiree teamwork as while a bluffed/feinted/decepted mob may still be subject to sneak attack damage, they may not neccessarily be attacked from behind.

What would also help is reducing the hate from sneak attack damage. Perhaps NOT applying it to the total hate from damage. The mob knows he's getting hurt and hurt badly, but he doesn't always know why.

Of course, let us not forget the mob's exceptonal radar that let's them home on to targets anywhere in the instance (or in the case of Earth Elementals, anywhere on the server). When we lose line of sight of the mob, there's no way for us to know where he is (partly thanks to listen being less than helpful in a video game). If you can beak line of sight on the mob and then go silent, they should start stopping and looking (great for a rogue who 'goes silent' because he's sneaking away as opposed to the fighter just standing there) and 'give up' when they don't find you instead of always just coming right to you.f memory and server lag permits, they can keep scanning their area to try and find you before you can sneak attack them again.

Tarackian
01-18-2008, 11:21 AM
Bad news for you...my ranger/rogue does all of that and more...I just can't get trap in Cabel on Elite (like many rogues). I have 1 level of rogue (taken first) and enough INT to get all my rogue skill each and every level. i wield 2 handed with all the feats and I also have all the bow feats. Don't get me wrong I like pure rogues and feel DDO needs to start making them meaningful but don't put down MC rogues because apparently you don't understand how to build them or use them.



Rogues can do a lot more than disarm traps. Besides, many of those MC splash builds cannot do the same things a full rogue can do.

Many cannot handle Von 5 elite traps. Many don't open locks nearly as efficiently. Many do not have UMD scores as high as a full rogue. They don't have improved evasion, and won't have access to the new rogue special abilities.

MC rogues already suffer multiclass penalties for traps. They have access to only the lowest tier of trap enhancements, and have to spend double skill points on their traps skills.

kruggar
01-18-2008, 11:25 AM
Thats not true if the rogue levels are taken later on in the creation of the chr.
For example a lvl 10 ranger can take one level of rogue at level 11 and spend all of his 12 skill points in disable or search without the cross class penalty. In DDO that is..

in PnP too :)

kruggar
01-18-2008, 11:27 AM
Well, D&D PnP has skill caps.

For example a 10 ranger 2 rogue would have a base disable skill cap of 8.5
A 12 rogue would have a base disable cap of 15

thats a big diffrance.

actually in Pnp the cap for both is the same 15 like DDO.

if one of your classes has the skill as class skill then the cap is considered 3+ character lvl, the only diference is that if u buy a skill with ranger points u pay 2:1 for a non ranger class skill.

ArkoHighStar
01-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Bad news for you...my ranger/rogue does all of that and more...I just can't get trap in Cabel on Elite (like many rogues). I have 1 level of rogue (taken first) and enough INT to get all my rogue skill each and every level. i wield 2 handed with all the feats and I also have all the bow feats. Don't get me wrong I like pure rogues and feel DDO needs to start making them meaningful but don't put down MC rogues because apparently you don't understand how to build them or use them.

yes but you had to make compromises, you are a ranger with trapsmith skills, not a rogue, there is a big difference

Aspenor
01-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Bad news for you...my ranger/rogue does all of that and more...I just can't get trap in Cabel on Elite (like many rogues). I have 1 level of rogue (taken first) and enough INT to get all my rogue skill each and every level. i wield 2 handed with all the feats and I also have all the bow feats. Don't get me wrong I like pure rogues and feel DDO needs to start making them meaningful but don't put down MC rogues because apparently you don't understand how to build them or use them.

LOL

And you sacrificed ALOT to get to where you are.

What is your UMD? Can you sneak effectively? Can you use diplomacy, intimidate, AND bluff? Can you jump off high buildings with a single bound, and take zero damage? Do you put out 50-ish damage per-hit?

The answer is a definite no.

kruggar
01-18-2008, 11:33 AM
LOL

And you sacrificed ALOT to get to where you are.

What is your UMD? Can you sneak effectively? Can you use diplomacy, intimidate, AND bluff? Can you jump off high buildings with a single bound, and take zero damage? Do you put out 50-ish damage per-hit?

The answer is a definite no.

probably he can have the umd, yes is class skill for ranger, probably not, yes he can, more then taht i think :)

Mercules
01-18-2008, 11:35 AM
Rogues come into their own in D&D not because they might be able to find and/or disarm a trap. Their Sneak Attack is a nice ability. The fact that they can't be flanked(at higher levels) is a nice ability. The MAIN reason to play a Rogue in D&D is for the SKILLS.

My "Army Scout" Rogue I played in a campaign had a wide range of skills and most of them were useful during the campaign. In DDO I wouldn't have gotten most of them.

I had:
Balance - only a point or so with my Dex it would still help out
Bluff - moderately high, so useful behind enemy lines
Climb - a good look out spot is useful for a scout
Decipher Script - those enemy plans I get a glimpse of by sneaking into the tent are useless if I can't read them
Diplomacy - bargaining
Disable Device - not so much for traps, but supply wagons, bridges, siege machines
Disguise - subjugated townsfolk seemed to be a common one for me
Escape artist - came in handy -once- but boy did it save the day
Forgery - documents for passing picket lines, false papers and orders
Gather Information - If I can get into a good position to spy on the opposition it helps to have the skills to figure out what is important and not
Hide - obvious for a scout
Knowledge (local) - I'd be a lousy scout if I got lost
Listen - Some things are well hidden, but not always quiet
Move Silently - obvious
Open Lock - to get the battle plans out of the general's lock box
Search - to find that stupid lock box
Sense Motive - just in case they "set me up" to gain false info or set up decoy troops
Slieght of Hand - because it is cool
Spot - Uh... yeah...
Swim - there are a few locations where I have had to get through water to get somewhere and my Str and Con weren't the best
Tumble - No AoO, getting behind foes to flank them, this is a NEEDED skill for Rogues in D&D
UMD - Emulate alignment. It would have worked... if I could roll well... Stupid Lawful only items... stupid hobgoblins
Use Rope - Synergy with Escape Artist and handy in any case

My point for listing all of these is to point out that Rogues are not, "The guy who handles the traps." in PnP D&D. So yes in DDO where that seems to be the main reason to include one, you -can- replace them with a splashed level of Rogue and anything else. You can keep 3-4 skills up even paying double for them. In D&D I was hard pressed when it came time to level my Rogue deciding which skills needed those points I was getting, and I got quite a few each level. If they could make more skills useful, and not just there is a use, but there is a good reason to use them, then pure(r) Rogues would be more desirable because of the number of skills they can keep maxed. Fix that and the rest will fix itself.

kruggar
01-18-2008, 11:35 AM
the situation is this, anyone can have everything, u just need to work for it.. thats the mentality of PnP and in DDO is the same...


u can be a wizard tank, paladin trapsmith, a bard archer and so on.. u just need to work for it.. and well basicly u dont need the max of all classes to be a good char and usefull in a group. u just need to play well.

bigal4458
01-18-2008, 11:41 AM
Agree.

DDO already gives pureclass more advantage over MC characters compared to PnP via the enhancement system. It takes quite a bit of sacrifice to overcome these penalties. If you saw a MC rogue doing highend traps its becasue he put alot into it. There is absolutely no reason other than your own perception that a pure class rogue should be a better trapsmith than a MC rogue other than class feat. Period.

Unless you're a Paladin.

Aspenor
01-18-2008, 11:43 AM
probably he can have the umd, yes is class skill for ranger, probably not, yes he can, more then taht i think :)

UMD is NOT a ranger class skill.

kruggar
01-18-2008, 11:52 AM
UMD is NOT a ranger class skill.

i was answering more then one question sorry got a little dubious :)

Aspenor
01-18-2008, 11:58 AM
i was answering more then one question sorry got a little dubious :)

OIC what you meant...as far as sneaking effectively, you need to remember that he'll have to spend double points in search, DD, and open locks to keep them maxxed. That's 6 skill points ALL of your base ranger points per level gone. Now, assuming 16 INT, he has 3 skill points to play with. Assume he keeps UMD maxxed as well, theres 8 skill points gone and 1 left. You can't sneak well alternating points in hide/ms, and I haven't even included spot, tumble, and balance in the equation yet.

Sure, he's a trap-disabling ranger. However, he is not a thief.

Additionally, there is no ranger in the game that can match sneak attack DPS. A rogue, with a natural sneak attack NON CRIT, will be doing 40-60 damage per swing. A ranger will average 20 ish non crit, and will match the rogue damage only on crits. Any rogue worth his salt doesn't get aggro, and thus maintains nearly 100% sneak attack damage.

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 11:59 AM
As far as the whimpering and whining that the MC rogues are 'outperforming' the pures, I think it's DDO's inflated monster hit points, to-hits, and AC's that's hurting the pure rogues. Unless the rogues get a special enhancement at level 16 that says "you can no disarm Turbine's special, rogue-only traps" then it boils down to items and how many skill points you're willing to spend on trapping and locksmithing. Most of the rogue enhancements don't add up to too much more (though 'way of the mechanic' is a step in the right direction).



A MC rogue could never outperform a rogue made specifically to find and disable traps(granting equipment is the same). While I think Way of the Mechanic type enhancements are not a terrible thing by themselves, too many of these enhancements will eventually increase the the numbers Turbine balances around for the higher settings. Personnally I think they have more than plenty enhancements lines affecting trap DCs in the game already. If they continue to add more in, they will eventually not only falsely(because enhancements are made up out of thin air with no base in PnP) eliminate MC characters from trapsmithing but also force pure and near pureclass rogues(which I have also) into using a bunch of APs that could have been used in other more useful ways. Its a lose/lose proposition imho.

I think it is an equally bad idea to exclude the use of skill based equipment based on class, though it didnt really seem like you were too serious about that suggestion.

Yajerman01
01-18-2008, 12:03 PM
In a way I agree with you, there's no way a multi-class should be as effective as a pure. The problem in DDO is that unless you can bring something else to the party you don't get in (Rogues and Rangers). I have alwyas found it funny though that my Ranger/Rogue at times, has been able to out "Rogue" the pure in the group.

your out "roguing" a pure because the pure gimped or screwed up his toon somewhere along the building process. I have met a few rangers who proceed to tell me my after discussion that their rogue skill stats are better then mine. For example I recall a ranger telling me his disable was a 52 while mine sat at a humble 48. He proceeded to disable trap and blew two of them up (back to back). My pure rogue has'nt blown a trap up since 9th level. Having that said, I am always wary on the multiclassers because often then not i find they goof on a trap. (i think that ranger was lying to me anyway about his skills).

Regardless , im in alignment with the OP.

Mercules
01-18-2008, 12:06 PM
i was answering more then one question sorry got a little dubious :)

Quoting each question and then putting your answer with them in some way associating them would help the confusion.

Punctuation and complete thoughts might help as well. Without it it is hard to figure out where one comment stops and another starts.

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Unless you're a Paladin.

Having a few levels of paly is good for saves but thats if and only if you put enough build points into char. Its a nice benefit but what else does it really do for trapsmithing? Cant say as Ive never made a paly/rog mix.

Zenako
01-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Yup...Jareko 12Ran/2Rog can Range attack excellently, two weapon fight quite well thank you (Finesse), has ok AC, a good selection of useful spells (Resists, Barkskins, Jump, Wild Instints generally) and some pretty nice gear by this time.

As for Skills: max levels in DD, OL, Spot, Search
A bunch of skill in Move Silent, Hide. (Can sneak quite well...good +15 gear as well pushes the numbers well into the 40's).
Some skill in Jump, Heal, Balance....

ZERO ranks in Haggle, UMD, or any of the CHA based skills like Diplomacy or Bluff. Those greatly limit my effective options in melee, but that is the choice I made.

I have no extra Trap Sense to fall back on, no advanced Rogue Backstab Damage, no Rogue Specialities and I will probably end up falling short (level wise) of some of the new Ranger perks, but that is ok.

Mercules
01-18-2008, 12:09 PM
Any rogue worth his salt doesn't get aggro, and thus maintains nearly 100% sneak attack damage.

And you should see the damage numbers a Rogue with Cleave can do with a 2H Barb or Intimitank nearby. Even without them my Rogue and pop off a Cleave/Great Cleave routine and walk away from the fight with no one following him. ;)

Zenako
01-18-2008, 12:16 PM
your out "roguing" a pure because the pure gimped or screwed up his toon somewhere along the building process. I have met a few rangers who proceed to tell me my after discussion that their rogue skill stats are better then mine. For example I recall a ranger telling me his disable was a 52 while mine sat at a humble 48. He proceeded to disable trap and blew two of them up (back to back). My pure rogue has'nt blown a trap up since 9th level. Having that said, I am always wary on the multiclassers because often then not i find they goof on a trap. (i think that ranger was lying to me anyway about his skills).

Regardless , im in alignment with the OP.

mmm disable device
17 ranks
+13 item
+5 INT (for a 20)
+7 Tools
+4 GH
+2 Head of Good Luck (or +1 with Rabbit Gloves)
+5 Skill Boost
= 53 (52) with no enhancements at all.

Not hard to do, just have to make sure you work at it and remember to equip the right gear. (I sometimes forget the INT goggles and that hurts 2 points, but my DD gloves are my default gloves anyway.)

Raithe
01-18-2008, 12:31 PM
Rogues need better designed quests that make use of jump, tumble, balance, bluff, stealth, and UMD, along with traps and locks.

As for pure trapsmiths, I would rather bring a character that has a high dex, high reflex, and improved evasion. Whether a trap can be disabled or not, a high evasion character can get everyone (or their stones) through. Plus he isn't going to take much damage when all those near-party-wiping spells hit (usually none).

"Rogue skills" don't come too easy, they come too costly. Even for a pure rogue.

ArkoHighStar
01-18-2008, 12:36 PM
Rogues need better designed quests that make use of jump, tumble, balance, bluff, stealth, and UMD, along with traps and locks.

As for pure trapsmiths, I would rather bring a character that has a high dex, high reflex, and improved evasion. Whether a trap can be disabled or not, a high evasion character can get everyone (or their stones) through. Plus he isn't going to take much damage when all those near-party-wiping spells hits (usually none).

"Rogue skills" don't come too easy, they come too costly. Even for a pure rogue.


I think that is the key when talking about rogues, what do you define as a rogue skill

Trapsmithing
dd
ol
serach
spot

Survival
evasion
improved evasion (because eventually everyone rolls a 1)
uncanny dodge
improved uncanny dodge
subtle backstabber
trap sense
UMD

combat
sneak attack
subtle backstabber
sneak attack accuracy

ArkoHighStar
01-18-2008, 12:46 PM
Rogues need better designed quests that make use of jump, tumble, balance, bluff, stealth, and UMD, along with traps and locks.

As for pure trapsmiths, I would rather bring a character that has a high dex, high reflex, and improved evasion. Whether a trap can be disabled or not, a high evasion character can get everyone (or their stones) through. Plus he isn't going to take much damage when all those near-party-wiping spells hits (usually none).

"Rogue skills" don't come too easy, they come too costly. Even for a pure rogue.

No what is need is for things like balance to actually mean something more than how fats you get up when you are tripped. It should mean that you have better balance. I find it funny that in VON 4 a cleric with a negative balance can stick to the pipes like glue, he should be making making balance checks and falling off if he fails. Jump I think works pretty well, the problem is the skill is capped out at 40 so at high level with jump cast on you everyone is pretty much the same. UMD should work on stat runes(wis, chr,int).

Stealth is pretty much broken as once they see you no matter wher you go they will find you, fix stealth and it is a whole new ballgame.

Traps are getting deadlier in mod 6, they say that every time, but after the first few days everyone knows where they are and how to get through them, so people rarely die because if it. They need to make traps so deadly only those who have high reflex saves and evasion or improved evasion can get through, and then put those traps in hallways leading to optional treasure or a shortcut through the dungeon.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-18-2008, 12:50 PM
When it comes to ranks and skill levels in DDO, they 'DO!" use the same rules as in PnP.
Actually, they have taken out one rule.......my pure Ftr "SHOULD" be able to put skill points into DD if I choose to waste them that way.....but in DDO I can't.

All of you people that complain about this are under the assumption that D&D rogues are only trap monkeys.
rogues are skill monkeys and back stabbers......DD is only one of many skills that they can choose to spend their points on.

If a multi-classed rogue is better at being a trap monkey then a pure rogue, then the pure rogue is not built right (at least if he wanted to build his rogue as a trap monkey anyway).

A multi-classed rogue can be good......real good.......better than the many not good rogues out there.
A twinked multi-classed rogue can be extremely good!

Some classes make real good senergy for a few rogue levels......Rgr is the best. Bards also. High Int Wizs do pretty well.
And if you want to conentrate mainly on search and DD, than you can get pretty good with almost any class combo.

A few soloist have kept their OL high........Brb/Rog combos solo well and zerg very well......they might not be as good a trap monkey, but they don't need to be.

But my main point is that Rogues are supposed to have high skills in many other skills.....not just be in the group to disabale traps.

Sneak by the guard.....jump the chasm.....UMD the raise dead scroll.....diplomacy the Fire Giant.........Haggle the Raise Dead scrolls to an affordable price.......swim up stream and get the key. (well it should be a key.....not a chest)

......and Critical hit the Dragon in the belly where he is missing a scale.

Anyria
01-18-2008, 01:53 PM
If you are aware of the fact that a splash of rouge can DD close to a pure rouge, built a MC character!

If you built your pure rouge as just a trap monkey, I am sorry but, you are missing the point of playing a pure rouge.

I have built (I think) 7 different pure rouges that I end up deleting because of a few reasons;

1 - most people don't wait for you to disable traps, they just run through them

2 - the DPS built is very good but Barbs get the edge here IMO

3 - I get bored being the best trap monkey and the second or third best of everything else - Kills, Healer, etc

The point is this is not PnP where I think rouges as a class are the most fun playing, this is DDO so you have to adjust to the rules that are given.

I would never play a 13 ranger, 1 rouge in PnP but I have to say that it has been the most fun to play in this game (pure sorceror may be a tie). This build does everything I want it to: UMD (enough to cast Greater Teleport and Heal scrolls, DD +53, OL +51, Search (enough to find all the traps except that crucible one), Dual wields with 47AC with 300+hp.

I am not listing my stats to tout how good my character is (ok maybe I am a little bit), it is more to illustrate the fact that maybe there is a MC build that would better suit your needs.

I think all of us play this game because it is FUN, don't worry if someone manages to find away within the rules to build a great character, just ask them how they did it and if it sounds FUN, roll one up yourself, if not move along to your next build and matbe people will be asking you " Hey, how do you do that? or Could you send me that build, it sounds like something I would like?".

Raithe
01-18-2008, 02:15 PM
No what is need is for things like balance to actually mean something more than how fats you get up when you are tripped. It should mean that you have better balance. I find it funny that in VON 4 a cleric with a negative balance can stick to the pipes like glue, he should be making making balance checks and falling off if he fails. Jump I think works pretty well, the problem is the skill is capped out at 40 so at high level with jump cast on you everyone is pretty much the same. UMD should work on stat runes(wis, chr,int).

You are not really disagreeing with me here. Balance checks on pipes was one of the things I was specifically thinking about - but it takes quest design elements to be implemented, and DCs applied. Jump was mentioned just because rogues can usually afford to have several points placed in it, and the rogue is often the one that will need to get to the place beyond the jump. UMD for runes was also one of the things I was thinking specifically about, but once again requires the appropriate quest design.



Stealth is pretty much broken as once they see you no matter wher you go they will find you, fix stealth and it is a whole new ballgame.


Stealth is not broken. Aggro mechanics are (and you don't have to be messing with stealth to notice this). Purposes for stealth within the context of a quest are very limited. More often than not, using stealth means other characters simply can't follow, and usually have nothing to do in the meantime. Complex, multi-dimensional quest scenarios would make it so the rogue, ranger, or bard can be stealthing around for one objective while the rest of the party is fulfilling other objectives.



Traps are getting deadlier in mod 6, they say that every time, but after the first few days everyone knows where they are and how to get through them, so people rarely die because if it. They need to make traps so deadly only those who have high reflex saves and evasion or improved evasion can get through, and then put those traps in hallways leading to optional treasure or a shortcut through the dungeon.

And this would be part of quest design, which is lacking.

Vengenance
01-18-2008, 02:19 PM
Rogues can do a lot more than disarm traps. Besides, many of those MC splash builds cannot do the same things a full rogue can do.

Many cannot handle Von 5 elite traps. Many don't open locks nearly as efficiently. Many do not have UMD scores as high as a full rogue. They don't have improved evasion, and won't have access to the new rogue special abilities.

MC rogues already suffer multiclass penalties for traps. They have access to only the lowest tier of trap enhancements, and have to spend double skill points on their traps skills.

My MC 13 Ranger / 1 Rogue can do the Von 5 traps on elite, pretty much all traps on elite except for cabal, can open any lock (not on a 1, but who cares), and also has UMD (31 w/GH). Many rangers can fill the gaps for trap smithing duties, but rogues can't cast Barkskin (+5 AC) on entire party, handle all elemental resists and protections, or cast jump or tumble. I can also cast wild instincts on myself to boost the my spot skill up and come mod 6 will be able to cast the new spell giving me a +2 size bonus to strength, putting me up to 28 str with spell and 30 raged. My AC is higher than most rogues due to permanent barksin, I have a higher BAB bonus than rogues, and every two minutes I can do extreme DPS with my many shot. A ranger may not be able to do everything a ranger can do, but a well built ranger can fill the rogue slot when needed.

ghale
01-18-2008, 02:53 PM
Additionally, there is no ranger in the game that can match sneak attack DPS. A rogue, with a natural sneak attack NON CRIT, will be doing 40-60 damage per swing. A ranger will average 20 ish non crit, and will match the rogue damage only on crits. Any rogue worth his salt doesn't get aggro, and thus maintains nearly 100% sneak attack damage.

Shhh...we don't need threads to pop about nerfing rogue dps if people know the truth ;).

Rogues stink! Please improve them by adding enhancements or a feat to allow them to crit on undead and constructs which seem to compose too much of this game!

unionyes
01-18-2008, 02:58 PM
My MC 13 Ranger / 1 Rogue can do the Von 5 traps on elite, pretty much all traps on elite except for cabal, can open any lock (not on a 1, but who cares), and also has UMD (31 w/GH). Many rangers can fill the gaps for trap smithing duties, but rogues can't cast Barkskin (+5 AC) on entire party, handle all elemental resists and protections, or cast jump or tumble. I can also cast wild instincts on myself to boost the my spot skill up and come mod 6 will be able to cast the new spell giving me a +2 size bonus to strength, putting me up to 28 str with spell and 30 raged. My AC is higher than most rogues due to permanent barksin, I have a higher BAB bonus than rogues, and every two minutes I can do extreme DPS with my many shot. A ranger may not be able to do everything a ranger can do, but a well built ranger can fill the rogue slot when needed.

My rogue can shoot a bow, summon a dog (with a scroll and UMD), drink a barkskin potion (and give one to everyone else if I wanted to), use rogue skill boost to get my search (and spot, and disable, and open lock, and UMD, and and and) up, hit from the back to get my attack bonus higher than yours, as well as do sneak attack damage EVERY time I hit them to do 'extreme' DPS. A rogue may not be able to do everything a ranger can do, but a well built rogue can fill the ranger slot when needed.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Back at you. BTW, how's your evasion? Just asking.

Zenako
01-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Back at you. BTW, how's your evasion? Just asking.

Pretty darn good....I mean a 1 is a 1 is a 1 and it is only then that is seems to make any difference with taking half even on a fail. I can live with that....

boldarblood
01-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Although not the skill monkey a full rogue is, a rogue/ranger is very good mix. I run a Strength Based 1/13 Rogue/Ranger. I maxed out OL, DD, Search, Spot, UMD and balanced the remaining points between Balance/Jump, the only trap I can not take care of is spotting the Cabal Trap. I can not sneak, but in all honesty in a pug situation there is rarely an oppurtunity to put it to good use, perhaps more chance in a guild group, but then again its more of a zerg than anything else at that point. So have some of the more important rogue skills handled and on top of that can dual wield dwarf axes, provide myself with the bonus of Ranger spells (barks, resists, etc). But the build is very dependant on alot of high end gear. Neither a full rogue or a MC rogue is better or worse than the other. The player makes all the difference.

ArkoHighStar
01-18-2008, 03:29 PM
Although not the skill monkey a full rogue is, a rogue/ranger is very good mix. I run a Strength Based 1/13 Rogue/Ranger. I maxed out OL, DD, Search, Spot, UMD and balanced the remaining points between Balance/Jump, the only trap I can not take care of is spotting the Cabal Trap. I can not sneak, but in all honesty in a pug situation there is rarely an oppurtunity to put it to good use, perhaps more chance in a guild group, but then again its more of a zerg than anything else at that point. So have some of the more important rogue skills handled and on top of that can dual wield dwarf axes, provide myself with the bonus of Ranger spells (barks, resists, etc). But the build is very dependant on alot of high end gear. Neither a full rogue or a MC rogue is better or worse than the other. The player makes all the difference.


Sneak etc generally are not used, but they become invaluable with new content when even zergers slow down a bit

Drekisen
01-18-2008, 03:31 PM
not too, when a multi-minority class rogue steps in and does a trap over my pure or majority class rogue. I either sit back and pay close attention to the details of the trap design for future reference, do inventory stuff, or laugh hysterically as they get sliced to ribbons or get dirty looks from the group because they blew it. I'm really doing the quest for xp and favor, and if a raid for raid completion. As much as I do love finding and disabling traps, I also get a lot of joy out of watching a lightning bolt or ball lightning go thru my body, do no damage and nail three or four people around me, that is quite entertaining :) I also find it quite satisfying to be able to do stuff like take care of my own negative levels and raise dead from my UMD skills. Oh and the beautiful damage numbers when I get a sneak attack, expecially with my repeater, as well as using my ability damaging repeaters makes being a rogue quite enjoyable to me. Even if I never do get around to doing a trap. I think the rogue and ranged rangers for that matter, stand back and be sneaky playstyle a lot of times can save things when a situation is going bad. They both have a lot to offer, and, IMO, it comes down a lot more to how much the individual player capitalizes on all the skills available, instead of cornering themselves with stereotype syndrome. Rouges and rangers alike both get two of the three highest skill point ranges and class skill selections in the game. Staying pure or mostly pure, even though they are not spells or enhancements or feats, these skills will add up to a lot overall.

sigtrent
01-18-2008, 03:33 PM
There arn't many good reasons to be 100% rogue but there are lots of good reasons to be 80-90% rogue.

There are also good reasons to be 5-10% rogue.

It just depends on what you want. But I actualy have a hard time understanding anyone who wants to have their #1 usefull talent be disabling traps. It is a small part of the game and is pretty much a solo activity in a group based game. Its fun, but its not so fun that I'd want it to be my mainstay.

My own rogue is 10 Rogue 2 Barbarian 2 Ranger and I've pretty much got no reason to level anything other than more rogue from here on out.

Aspenor
01-18-2008, 03:34 PM
My MC 13 Ranger / 1 Rogue can do the Von 5 traps on elite, pretty much all traps on elite except for cabal, can open any lock (not on a 1, but who cares), and also has UMD (31 w/GH). Many rangers can fill the gaps for trap smithing duties, but rogues can't cast Barkskin (+5 AC) on entire party, handle all elemental resists and protections, or cast jump or tumble. I can also cast wild instincts on myself to boost the my spot skill up and come mod 6 will be able to cast the new spell giving me a +2 size bonus to strength, putting me up to 28 str with spell and 30 raged. My AC is higher than most rogues due to permanent barksin, I have a higher BAB bonus than rogues, and every two minutes I can do extreme DPS with my many shot. A ranger may not be able to do everything a ranger can do, but a well built ranger can fill the rogue slot when needed.

Key word, Geryl: Many ;)

I can cast 30 pt resists with my 13rogue/1ranger without a roll. Wands baby.

ViVid7th
01-18-2008, 03:38 PM
Sorry to say, but there is little penalty to MCing. Point and case, my Fi/Rog/Rng Heavy Repeater. Base stats has a 20 int and an 17 dex, enough skill points to keep search, spot, pick lock and disable device maxed, along with taking other skills. Int's base will never need to be touched and the character will have a high enough con through enhancements and items to perform well as an Intmitank since his AC as S/B will be near max. One Splash of Ranger for the odd level that fighter gives nothing and the even level of nothing rogue, as well as a boost to BAB and saves.

No ranger abilities? FE1 is a nice boost for one level and ranged combat is borked with bows until Mod 6 (And likely afterwards as well), ranger abilities don't work with Xbows.

Lacking Rogue skills? Only UMD. And I'm not aware of a boss/instance that requires a high UMD skill. Only thing I am missing is a high sneak attack bonus and rogue abilities. High save vs enchantments sorta negates the will save issue though. Bluff isn't useful, Dip in nice and Intmi isn't and shouldn't be useful to a pure rogue due to being squishy.

And not like there is much reason to go full fighter anyways, most of the heavy "OMG, THIS ROXXORZ!!!" feats don't exist in the game or can't be adapted due to the mechanic change.

Thing is this build would have never gotten off the ground on PnP. Why you ask? 3 classes, none of which are favored or within 1 level of the other. This means I would be taxed with a 40% EXP loss. Not a big deal right? I only go up at half the speed, but I'll be just as powerful at level 20 when I get there, right? Wrong. The rest of the group won't be taking that hit to their EXP. They will continue to gain levels on this character and increase the level gap. They would increase the effective CR of the party, which means that my character will be facing CRs of a higher level than what he would be effective on. Because of this build's slower progression in PnP the power of it is pointless. To pull something like a Fi/Rog with the level gap between them as I am looking at you would have to have one of the classes as your favored class. Good MC characters, or characters that just take a splash of a level or two do so either cause of a favored class or to go even split, mostly for PrCs.

That is the difference between DDO and PnP multiclassing. No party progression and no EXP tax. No PrCs and allowing silly Fi/Rog/Rng/Barb combos with little penalty.

Edit: Sorry, I can name one DDO problem with this build. Getting past level 1 was like pulling a tooth. Aside from that, I can give up damage output to tank, have the skill points to get past almost any point in the game and to negate balance checks. And I have a slight boost against undead.

unionyes
01-18-2008, 03:53 PM
There arn't many good reasons to be 100% rogue but there are lots of good reasons to be 80-90% rogue.

There are also good reasons to be 5-10% rogue.

It just depends on what you want. But I actualy have a hard time understanding anyone who wants to have their #1 usefull talent be disabling traps. It is a small part of the game and is pretty much a solo activity in a group based game. Its fun, but its not so fun that I'd want it to be my mainstay.

My own rogue is 10 Rogue 2 Barbarian 2 Ranger and I've pretty much got no reason to level anything other than more rogue from here on out.

Of course, I am still mid level with my rogue, but.......

Traps are great to disable, even if the party runs through them, for the xp bonus. But, of course, they are not the #1 useful talent. I often lead in kill count, especially working with a good intimitank, and I didn't roll this rogue up to be a DPS machine, so it could probably be higher if I aimed that way. Plus my current build path will enable me at higher levels to cast rez scrolls, be very self sufficient, and a tremendous asset to any party in any quest. Also I am pretty hard to kill, as I don't draw aggro (except as they are dying, when it is too late) and AOE don't mean a thing to me except that when I see AOE I know it's time to draw aggro away from the rest of the party. As of last night I can now repair WF and constructs, although I don't know how well it works in practice as of yet as I haven't given it a try.

I am also getting a pretty decent collection of effects based weapons for my level, to do con damage, hamstring, curse, stuff like that for those rare mobs that don't go down right away. And I have the jump and tumble to get outta dodge when things go south too.

And I am pure Rogue. Can't figure out why I would want to take a level of anything else. I do just fine in a scrap, maybe could be a little better with a level of whatever, but don't want to give up my shot at the Cabal trap one day (or more sneak attack damage) to throw a splash of something into Splashlog.

Vengenance
01-18-2008, 05:24 PM
My rogue can shoot a bow, summon a dog (with a scroll and UMD), drink a barkskin potion (and give one to everyone else if I wanted to) [LOL], use rogue skill boost to get my search (and spot, and disable, and open lock, and UMD, and and and) up, hit from the back to get my attack bonus higher than yours [until you have aggro] , as well as do sneak attack damage EVERY time I hit [except on undead, constructs, or anytime you have aggro] them to do 'extreme' DPS. A rogue may not be able to do everything a ranger can do, but a well built rogue can fill the ranger slot when needed.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Back at you. BTW, how's your evasion [just fine thank you]? Just asking.


For the record I have a capped rogue, a very well built one if I do say so myself <thank you Aspenor> so I know exactly what they can bring. Given that, it is my opinion that my ranger can bring even more to a party w/o sacrificing rogue like needs.

Asp, I send all my level 11 resist wands to Geryl as well so that I always have them.

captain1z
01-18-2008, 06:08 PM
I think the basis for judging if the MC rogue your are looking at is as good or better than a pure class rogue is whether or not he fails/ blows a trap.

I think its wrong to want to see a party member fail (unless hes a jerk).


I built my wiz/rogue to be able to handle traps/search/and locks.............. I do these things very well on normal hard or elite. Ive never blown anything...ever (with him anyway)

I take a lot of pride in him....... the things he can do, I worked at ....... my reflex save is only 20 and my HPs are laughable.


At wiz 9/ rogue 2 I still find it easier to jump into a group that is looking for a rogue rather than one thats looking for a wizard.

I put a lot of work into building a rogue with options........... Its sad that some would want to see me fail just so they can say that they are better.

Its really gunna cheese people off when I run cabal.... and not only find but disable both traps..................


Think Ill give it a shot tonight............wish me luck or Hate.........either works for me.

Rickpa
01-18-2008, 06:23 PM
Most people I see multiclassing into rogue do it for evasion, skill points, and rarely to be a trapsmith.

I find rogue is a class that most people don't enjoy playing. We have learned to run through traps rather than have them disabled. If a MC rogue can actually handle the traps... what a pleasant surprise! Even when we do have a trapsmith in the group, we still run through the traps anyway. Since the disastrous 3.3 update, we've gotten used to doing without rogues.. pure and multi-class.

captain1z
01-18-2008, 06:38 PM
Most people I see multiclassing into rogue do it for evasion, skill points, and rarely to be a trapsmith.

I find rogue is a class that most people don't enjoy playing. We have learned to run through traps rather than have them disabled. If a MC rogue can actually handle the traps... what a pleasant surprise! Even when we do have a trapsmith in the group, we still run through the traps anyway. Since the disastrous 3.3 update, we've gotten used to doing without rogues.. pure and multi-class.

yeah... that 3.3 thing hurt a bunch of rogues.............. but it had a secondary effect of making a new crop of rogues much better than the ones before them. If all you can do as a rogue is trapsmith, then your gunna be very disappionted as the culture of ddo seems to be to run thru traps or do whatever takes less time.

Elemental traps we just get the appropriete buff and run thru...... blades and stuff we try and time it/ jump our way thru....heal whatever damage done on the other side.

seems if you are gunna make a rogue you better be able to do something else......... pure class rogues get few options other than DPS & UMD

Vengenance
01-18-2008, 06:53 PM
Most Since the disastrous 3.3 update, we've gotten used to doing without rogues.. pure and multi-class.


Exactly my thoughts as well, given the current state of the game a pure rogue or trapsmith is seldom if ever needed in the game, which is why I built the Ranger varient. Even for my pure rogue I dropped all of the trapsmithing enhancements (OL, DD, Search, and Spot) in favor of DPS enhancements. DDO either needs to create more dungeons like VON 5 where traps need to be disabled and doors need to be picked or make traps so deadly that running through them will pretty much result in death to the individual running through it.

QuantumFX
01-18-2008, 07:41 PM
Let me start this by saying - OMFG not this nonsense again...


Well, D&D PnP has skill caps.

For example a 10 ranger 2 rogue would have a base disable skill cap of 8.5
A 12 rogue would have a base disable cap of 15

thats a big diffrance.

No in P&P both characters would have a cap of 15. (D&D 3.5 Players Handbook page 59 top of second column.)

MysticTheurge
01-18-2008, 08:14 PM
The moment you take that level of rogue you open a ton of skills as a class skill. No where does it say you are limited by the class level for that skill.

I know it's been covered already, but not only does it just not say you're limited by class level it flat out comes out and says you're only limited by character level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm).


Skills

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

That said, there are two significant issues here:

1) No multiclass penalties. D&D 3.5 acknowledges that "splashing" is a very tempting thing and potentially problematic, and thus has fairly significant drawbacks for splashing. This starts to get into Favored Classes too, but most people can't just take one or two levels of rogue without some pretty harsh XP penalties. And unlike in DDO, where a level cap throws a monkey wrench into the entire concept of XP penalties, that penalty really bites you in the ass in D&D.

2) Not enough skills in the game. The reason splashing rogue for skills is relatively ineffective in D&D is because there are so many skills that a rogue wants. It's not just OL/DD/UMD, it's those plus sleight of hand, climb, use rope, decipher script, hide and move silently (which are actually useful), gather information, disguise, perform, and escape artist. And that's not even counting "social rogue" type skills like diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and intimidate (which all, again, actually serve a reasonable purpose in D&D).