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WhiteKnight4u
01-18-2008, 12:32 AM
Hi,

I have been playing for a few months now and have noticed an issue with trying to play a true multi class, by "True" I mean keeping the levels close for each class. Many groups I have encountered will not ask you to join because you can't yet access a specific spell or feat because you don't have the levels and since your multi-classed you never will. Also, you are penalized in quests, especially solo quests because you character is level 6, but your individual levels are either 3/3 or 2/2/2 and you don't have the skills a normal level 6 would have.

It may make more sense to set your character level not based on levels but based overall on your highest level. So a character who is 4/2/2 would be treated as a level 4 character for the purposes of quests until you are able to advance a class above 4. Their individual advancement would remain as 4,2 or 2 for the respective class advancement. I understand this may take longer for a multi-class to raise levels, but once they did raise levels they would have the power and skills they deserve for taking the time to level multiple classes. A character who is a level 8 fighter, level 7 rouge and level 6 wizard should be able to access all their skills, they have earned them, but under the current rules you will never be able to advance a multi class beyond 8/8 or 5/5/6.

MrCow
01-18-2008, 12:49 AM
Some classes make good (synergetic) splits with other classes.

Some classes make bad (mismatched) splits with other classes.

Such is the way of the DDO system and, more importantly, the pen and paper system. *Shrugs*

Because of how the multi-class system works all of those levels of other classes add something to your character, so it isn't quite right to request that you be treated as your highest level class for your character's class. When you take a level 4 rogue / 4 wizard for instance those 4 rogue levels give sneak attack 2d6, a Base Attack bonus of +3, evasion, trapfinding, trap sense, Uncanny Dodge, +1 fortitude save, +4 reflex save, +1 will save, and a lot of skill points. The 4 wizard levels gives you SP of a 4th level wizard, a Base Attack Bonus of +2, +1 fortitude save, +1 reflex save, +4 will save, and the metamagic feat from level 1. To say this character can retain all (being 8 levels high) but be treated as a 4th level character in terms of EXP just isn't quite right.

Besides, I can attest to some fine players making some unorthodox builds that rely on interesting multi-classing to get what they desire. They don't let that hinder them as they just go with what they have.

Also, I do understand that in general the populous doesn't want to bring in a certain multi-classed characters, especially once people have gotten used to running quests in particular ways (ie, Wall of Fire needed for The Shadow Crypt, level 9+ cleric for Vault of Night part 3, Music of the Dead for Chamber of Raiyum back when that was a loot run). Hopefully you will find a group of people who can get past this and just let you be you.

FoeHammer
01-18-2008, 12:51 AM
From the sound of your post, you are not actually familiar with D&D 3.0 or 3.5 rules.

The idea of a true multiclass, as you put it, does not exist anymore. That went the way of the dodo and TSR.

Wizards of the Coast uses a 1 level per level type advancement. So yes, you cannot really be a 3\3, in a party with 4ths, like you used to based on experience pts. A 3\3 = 6th level now. You must sacrifice depth of abilities for breadth of abilities or flexibility.

The old multiclass system was badly broken, as was dual classing. It was way too inexpensive to gain class features.

In the current, and much more balanced system, there is a steep price for multiclassing. That being said, people do it all the time. But most multiclassing is really just a "splash" of something else. All Cleric with 1 lvl of Fighter\Paladin for the martial wpns. Or all Bard\1 Sorc. Or the old Batman, mostly rogue with 2 paladin levels for saves. Etc etc. Even the fighter\mage multiclass ends up being just a couple levels of fighter and mostly mage now for all the higher level spells.

A true 7\7 is something I have not seen.

Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?

MrCow
01-18-2008, 12:57 AM
Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?

I play an 8 ranger/6 bard... thats as close to a 7/7 split as I have and I absolutely love it (it was a close progression for quite a while until I hit level 14 and broke the 1/1 progression). Strength-based two-weapon fighting with warchanter in there to boost weapon damage. Switching to a bow is no problem as I can make a wallop of damage on the bow with multishot, bard song damage component, and the high STR. Considering how some groups don't care much for having rangers or bards if they carry me they at least get the mix of barkskin, bardic song, and a plethora of short but still useful buffs. :p

Also, when it comes down to 1/1 progression classes it is usually very easy to figure out how to split up the skill points (unlike non-equal progressions).

Then again, clerics, wizards, and sorcerers are the classes that tend to multiclass with trouble.

Missing_Minds
01-18-2008, 06:55 AM
Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?

If you have synergetic classes, it is very easy to have fun. I mean I was having a blast with my ranger/rogue till they broke ranged attacks with mod 3.

right now I've got a rogue 2 bard 3 and loving it. However, as far as end game goes... I may have to change up how many levels of each I'll take. mostly because I'm discovering some things about it that I have a chance to fix now vs. not being able to fix at all.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-18-2008, 06:59 AM
As the others have said if you pick your classes well a 3/3 build can be as powerful, if not more powerful, than a straight class. There is no reason that I can see to do what you suggest.

sirgog
01-18-2008, 07:14 AM
From the sound of your post, you are not actually familiar with D&D 3.0 or 3.5 rules.

The idea of a true multiclass, as you put it, does not exist anymore. That went the way of the dodo and TSR.

Wizards of the Coast uses a 1 level per level type advancement. So yes, you cannot really be a 3\3, in a party with 4ths, like you used to based on experience pts. A 3\3 = 6th level now. You must sacrifice depth of abilities for breadth of abilities or flexibility.

The old multiclass system was badly broken, as was dual classing. It was way too inexpensive to gain class features.

In the current, and much more balanced system, there is a steep price for multiclassing. That being said, people do it all the time. But most multiclassing is really just a "splash" of something else. All Cleric with 1 lvl of Fighter\Paladin for the martial wpns. Or all Bard\1 Sorc. Or the old Batman, mostly rogue with 2 paladin levels for saves. Etc etc. Even the fighter\mage multiclass ends up being just a couple levels of fighter and mostly mage now for all the higher level spells.

A true 7\7 is something I have not seen.

Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?



My new Intimitank, Argenal, intends to be Ftr7/Pal7. From there, have to make a decision - optimise for level 16 (Ftr8/Pal8 - one more feat, marginally better LoH) or for level 18 (Ftr7/Pal11 with 30 point resists).

The 7/7 split is to get excellent enhancements from both classes that only become available at lvl7.

Yukiko
01-18-2008, 07:24 AM
http://s255.photobucket.com/albums/hh156/yukiko_2008/multi.jpg

:D

All joking aside, Multi-classing can be tricky and requires a mastery of both classes that you intend to combine.
It can be very effective.

Arianrhod
01-18-2008, 07:27 AM
One of the most wonderful things about DDO is the ability to design any kind of character, no matter how goofy. You have the choice to play a WF cleric7/bard7 if you want. However, by the time you get to 3/3 (or even 1/1, still having a +0 BAB), you will discover that this combination of classes is very inefficient & hard to play. The ability to customize to this extent comes at the price of being able to create characters others (and maybe you yourself) will see as "gimped". Changing the system to make it impossible to "gimp" characters with the choices players make would destroy one of the elements that makes DDO stand out from the rest of the MMO world, and that would be a sad thing. Besides, once you've mastered the "uber" sorceror (or whatever class you happen to excel at), it can be a fun challenge to see what you can accomplish with an inefficient multiclass.

kruggar
01-18-2008, 07:56 AM
A true 7\7 is something I have not seen.

Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?

I have a 8/6 fighter/ranger 2-weapon fighter dwarf that works great... the plan will be 8/8 in next update.

I have a plan for a 8/6 rogue/fighter that seems pretty strong as concept, but will need some work to put his skills in place to be a sucessfull rogue too. but not that much.

Multiclassing is a tought choice and u need to plan ahead, i have a lot of multiclass chars, but most are just splashes.. heres my list:

Cleric/Fighter (dwarf) - 13/1 (my main char, love him)
Paladin/Rogue (drow) - 10/4 (if i would remake the build would be 11/3, but will fix getting to 11/5 in next update, still a tremendous char have maxed umd with paladins cha is nice and a real goo tank too, 35 reflex save)
Fighter/Ranger (dwarf) - 8/6 (my multi purpose tank do almost everything, from ranged, 2-handed and 2-weapon i love it)
Wizard/Rogue (drow) - 13/1 (will be 14/2 in next update, with the feat for int bonus to reflex)
Rogue/Paladin (human) - 11/3 (rogue with almost 40 reflex save is real nice)
Bard/cleric (human) - 13/1 (bard with dvs is nice and the 2 extra 1st lvl spells are worth it too, and extra sps)
Ranger/Paladin (elf) - 3/2 (working great till now, the plan will be 11/3 for lvl 14 cap and 13/3 for 16 lvl cap)
Rogue/Fighter/Paladin (drow) - 6/6/2 (another concept char thats still in lower lvls put doing fine till now)

Edit: I do have a pure sorcerer too :)

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 07:58 AM
Have an WF ftr8/wiz6 and know there is at least one character in Ghallanda who made a WF ftr7/wiz7. Kinda what helped me decide to make my 8/6. Its not all that difficult to make these builts viable in most content, i did have to min/max a bit and I did have to keep focused on what I wanted to accomplish. There are some very good buff spells through level 3 and I use stoneskin and Grt.hero. as needed from scrolls. Im sitting at a base 30 str, 24 con, 18 dex, 20 int, wis 16. He can only get his AC into the mid 40s but this isnt the main source of his damage avoidance. No, he cant bring things down as fast as a barb, he is a tactical ftr who takes a little bit of care to play.

I have had a wiz14 and ftr14, quickly became bored with the ftr14. Recently deleted the ftr14 for another MC build. One of my favorite things about this game(and PnP) is making different MC combos and completing the same content a ftr14 would. While the enhancement system is about a million times better than the original for MCing, it still does create a gap between pure and heavily MCed characters, thankfully they have adjusted it to be less penalizing. Its not up to DDO to make these types of builds competitive/viable, its up to the player. Other splits I have are rog7/ftr1/wiz1, pal12/ftr2, rog10/ftr3/barb1, clr10/ftr1 & rog3/wiz11. All a whole lot of fun to play and can contribute as much as any other character though in different ways.

Mercules
01-18-2008, 08:23 AM
Its not up to DDO to make these types of builds competitive/viable, its up to the player.

It is also up to the players to keep an open mind and other players to show people what some builds can do.

People are reluctant to pick up a character if they are not sure it can accomplish what they want it to do within the group.

I have a Cleric with a splash level of Rogue which makes me a fairly good trapsmith(solid Wis for Spot and Detect Traps stacks on my other Search bonuses), however when I join a PuG with him people will occasionally wonder if I can handle the traps. I get a lot of, "Even on Hard?" when asked if I am sure I can handle them. There was the one time I got to answer, "Well I just disarmed them all on Elite yesterday and there were not any patches or hotfixes." :D

Shaamis
01-18-2008, 08:35 AM
In first and second-edition AD&D, multi-classing with opposite classes worked very well, as the XP system allowed it. But in 3.0/3.5, multi-classing HAD to have synergies with each class, otherwise, you were half a character, for each class.

Case in point. In 1st/2nd edition, a 5th level straight class fighter, with the same XP total, could be a 4/4 ftr/mage, or a 3/3/3 ftr/mage/cleric, but in 3.0/3.5, a 5th level ftr would be a 3/2 ftr/wizard, or a 2/2/1 ftr/wizard/cleric. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Since DDO uses 3.0/3.5 rules (officially) your classes must have synergy, for them to be viable builds at high level (i.e. caster levels are appropriate, BAB is appropriate, and/or skill levels are appropriate.

There ARE exceptions, but 90% of the time, the non-synergy multi-class combos give up some of the basic three abilities (BAB, caster level, or skill levels), as a way of "paying" for access to other skills you chose in another class.

Balance sucks sometimes.

McGraham
01-18-2008, 08:36 AM
But it is also up to the player to stay true to the rules of the game and not whine or protest when something they think should work doesn't based on the rule set.

As said, sometimes M-Cing works ... sometimes it don't.

With the original TRS rules, (very early rules) it was that individuals HAD to be one class, this dictated the interaction of classes to make a successful run. I would just as soon see these rules still applied. But that will never happen.

D&D was not designed, in the begining, to be a game that could be won by a single player. And in reality, a "true" D&D adventure never reaches an end, except with the death of the player. (discounting resurrections)

D&D is not the typical hack n slash ... or first person shooter, that will ultimately have an end. D&D is for the long term a never ending journey. There is no single winner in the end.

To play by the rules, takes a special kind of person to be true to the game.

WhiteKnight4u
01-18-2008, 08:40 AM
I did not bother with 3.0 rules as many people I spoke to at that time hated it. I have however enjoyed the 3.5 rules, though many of the people I play with PNP are new so I have not had to get into the changes for multi-classing as of yet. I see I am not the only one who has gotten some odd responses from other players when joining a group. I actually had one guy fight with me that multi-classes are useless and was kicked from the group *which was the reason I started the post in the first place*.

Some people in the guild I am in have been using character builders, are they any good for helping to determine how a multi-class will be further down the road?

Thrudh
01-18-2008, 08:47 AM
It is also up to the players to keep an open mind and other players to show people what some builds can do.

People are reluctant to pick up a character if they are not sure it can accomplish what they want it to do within the group.


QFT

It IS possible to "gimp" a character... but that makes this a thinking person's game... much better than other MMOs in that regard...

On the other hand, there are many MC builds that are very effective, even though not conventional... I wish all DDO players would realize this (I think people are coming around). I only have one pure class character - my wizard... the rest are slightly or heavily multi-classed...

My bard/rogue and my cleric/paladin have not had too much trouble getting into groups... (Bard/Rogue is a especially potent support character combination and of course every group wants a cleric). My barbarian/fighter/ranger used to have problems being accepted as main tank, but that has gotten much better (either people are more accepting of what a MC can do, or maybe he has a better rep now - not sure)

My latest character, a ranger/wizard, has been turned down for groups quite a bit... One, people don't like rangers for some insane reason, Two, he's a strange multi-class that people don't see very often. But he's actually quite good, and is slowly winning people over.

BlueLightBandit
01-18-2008, 08:52 AM
You must sacrifice depth of abilities for breadth of abilities or flexibility.

That pretty much sums up everything I was gonna say.

honkuimushi
01-18-2008, 09:04 AM
I have a 8/5 Ranger/ Rogue and a 7/5 Fighter/ Cleric. Both are effective. The Ranger/Rogue has just about all his Rogue skills maxed, has 20 point resists and barkskin, and has Many Shot and ITWF, Favored Enemies, wand use and more hp than a rogue. The Fighter/ Cleric is an old 28 point human, so he doesn't break any DPS records, but he can hold his own and he can help out with healing when necessary and even use Raise Dead scrolls. He also has a pretty good will and fort saves. I would like to make another Fighter/Cleric using a 32 pt build and a dwarf or maybe a half-orc.

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 09:41 AM
It is also up to the players to keep an open mind and other players to show people what some builds can do.



Youre preaching to the choire(spelling:o) believe me. I get it all the time, when you go against the grain a little youre always going to get a few clueless who think there is only one way to skin a cat. Others wont accept you simply because you are not optimal in their eyes.

By far Ive found that most will give you a shot and trust you can do the job and others just to see how some characters get the job done. Most people seem pretty open minded imo though.

llevenbaxx
01-18-2008, 09:55 AM
In first and second-edition AD&D, multi-classing with opposite classes worked very well, as the XP system allowed it. But in 3.0/3.5, multi-classing HAD to have synergies with each class, otherwise, you were half a character, for each class.

Case in point. In 1st/2nd edition, a 5th level straight class fighter, with the same XP total, could be a 4/4 ftr/mage, or a 3/3/3 ftr/mage/cleric, but in 3.0/3.5, a 5th level ftr would be a 3/2 ftr/wizard, or a 2/2/1 ftr/wizard/cleric. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Since DDO uses 3.0/3.5 rules (officially) your classes must have synergy, for them to be viable builds at high level (i.e. caster levels are appropriate, BAB is appropriate, and/or skill levels are appropriate.

There ARE exceptions, but 90% of the time, the non-synergy multi-class combos give up some of the basic three abilities (BAB, caster level, or skill levels), as a way of "paying" for access to other skills you chose in another class.

Balance sucks sometimes.

Think its more a case of finding the synergy in the classes. Its there in most cases, people just choose not to see it or dont like that it may take a little more work than a simpler build. Im pretty sure with the right stat allocation and solid planning you can get many builds through highend content. I had no trouble at all getting my "gish" character to level 14 and 1900+ favor. He plays a little different than a standard melee but with all the highend equipment I assure you it is very possible. I would agree that a heavily MCed character would fail at trying to do both the jobs of his build makeup. Also, boss fights can be a little tricky at times, mostly because they are more MMO and less D&D and live by very different rules.

Hafeal
01-18-2008, 10:19 AM
The old multiclass system was badly broken, as was dual classing. It was way too inexpensive to gain class features. In the current, and much more balanced system, there is a steep price for multiclassing. That being said, people do it all the time. But most multiclassing is really just a "splash" of something else.

Well, I would argue that the attempt to balance in DDO, by following the 3.0/3.5 rules has made multi-class a generally difficult option, especially for casual players and/or players who do not have uber loot. HSinclair said before she left Turbine that she would never multi-class. I think for the vast, non-powergaming universe, that is sound advice. I find "splash" multi-classing the "inexpensive" work-around which could be called into question.

I find it ironic in many ways. DDO seems "afraid" to give power to true multi-class, perhaps due to "inexpensive" prices that might be gained from sharing in different classes. Yet DDO gives the power right back to classes with UMD and unlimited supplies of non-class restricted clickies.

Which is more to the heart of D&D - creating a character that has well-rounded abilities and working at them or giving classes "free" abilities they would not otherwise have from loot such as haste clickies, unlimited healing pots, etc.?

I guess I just have to question the whole "balance" argument given the state of DDO today. If DDO was truer to pnp rules on loot distriubution, perhaps I would find the balance argument better. I would rather see people invest in multi-classing than be given magic items that circumvent having to go without abilities or rely on their party members. And for the soloers, if multi-classing, without the whole "synergy" requirement (and who determines synergy anyway? why can't a fighter and magic user have synergy in a made-up world?) they would be better able and equipped to handle quests as well.

Mercules
01-18-2008, 10:56 AM
(and who determines synergy anyway? why can't a fighter and magic user have synergy in a made-up world?)

Warrior class and arcane caster can have great synergy, but it depends on what you do.

For example. You could go with a Paladin/Sorcerer and be a bit more balanced in the two classes than a splash. The shared Charisma helps out. The Sorcerer side give them excellent SPs and the Paladin side can give them self healing and buffs spells so they can skip some of them as they choose their Sorcerer spells. The arcane buffs can be very handy on top of the divine buffs Paladins get. I'm throwing a build together in a planner to see if it is something I would consider playing.

kruggar
01-18-2008, 11:08 AM
I did not bother with 3.0 rules as many people I spoke to at that time hated it. I have however enjoyed the 3.5 rules, though many of the people I play with PNP are new so I have not had to get into the changes for multi-classing as of yet. I see I am not the only one who has gotten some odd responses from other players when joining a group. I actually had one guy fight with me that multi-classes are useless and was kicked from the group *which was the reason I started the post in the first place*.

Some people in the guild I am in have been using character builders, are they any good for helping to determine how a multi-class will be further down the road?

For me character builders help a lot in determining if a build will work, but unfortunaltly in paper is better then in live version, many of my builds appeared great in planning but didnt worked that well in game. the answer is experiece, try it, enjoy it, and if it didnt worked then go back to planning.

kingfisher
01-18-2008, 11:23 AM
to me multiclassing is the best part of this game. it allows you to customize your character. you can do that is a pure class with feats and enhancements, yes, but training in differnet classes at differnet levels in your career reflects on where your character was at that point, this matters more for the RP aspect of the game. i have multi classed rangers and had great success with adding levels of rogue, fighter, barb, and cleric thus far. my nest will be a ranger/pally/bard. As said above, sticking to a class you know and adding varitey through multiclassing is a good way to start. as long as you know your role and stick to your gameplan almost any build can work up to a point. i doubt i will ever have a pure class character unless its an arcane caster. too boring for me. granted some of these builds will not tear the face off a dragon in half a second but they can be successful with proper tactics, which is what makes the game fun.

Hafeal
01-18-2008, 11:34 AM
I agree with your example. But, I would guess it will not be a "true" multi-class split (7/7) for most players but rather the "splash" class system which has developed in DDO. And who is to say that you cannot be a great cleric / fighter? A great sorc / rogue? I guess I would argue that there are more combinations which are difficult than not in DDO.

Many players base their perception of class from the fantasy/sci-fi literature they have read or from the movies. And people want to build characters in that vein or by what their imagination inspires them to create. It is my feeling that your imagination is limited because multi-class characters are limited.

There was a thread not to long ago that explored the learning curve for new DDO players. One thing which was discovered is that it is much easier to make a "mistake" in creating characters than to make truly successful characters. Add to this the desire of people to want to try and be creative by trying different combination of classes.

Now, as people find they cannot play well or their character is "gimped", they may resent the game, not enjoy it and move on. That is not what I would like to see.

I prefer a system that penalizes less and allows players to creative. DDO is pretty good (though not as good as pnp). Being pretty good does not mean we should not consider improvements. I think reasonable improvements to multi-classing should be considered.



Warrior class and arcane caster can have great synergy, but it depends on what you do.

For example. You could go with a Paladin/Sorcerer and be a bit more balanced in the two classes than a splash. The shared Charisma helps out. The Sorcerer side give them excellent SPs and the Paladin side can give them self healing and buffs spells so they can skip some of them as they choose their Sorcerer spells. The arcane buffs can be very handy on top of the divine buffs Paladins get. I'm throwing a build together in a planner to see if it is something I would consider playing.

MrCow
01-18-2008, 11:35 AM
my nest will be a ranger/pally/bard

Paladins can't multiclass with bards or barbarians. ;)

kingfisher
01-18-2008, 11:39 AM
Paladins can't multiclass with bards or barbarians. ;)

srsly? because of alignment right? doh. so maybe just ranger/bard then. doesn't sound as good. just an idea at this point anyway

Invalid_86
01-18-2008, 05:50 PM
In PnP multiclassing like that is pretty cool. In DDO, due to a lack of real prestige classes, it is often a handicap. Not saying that you can't make it work, just that you are often putting obstacles in your own way. Now if DDO actually puts in prestige classes we'd see a whole different story!

Raithe
01-18-2008, 07:19 PM
Its important to realize, and some posters have already pointed this out, that the problems with multi-classing in DDO are almost entirely problems of player perception. You could list me any triple-class permutation in the game, and I could point out how it could be made a viable alternative for end game with the right ability scores, skills, and feat selection. Those last three characteristics are what make 90% of a DDO character, and no one gets to see those but the player. Why we get to see their class(es), and not their character sheet, is beyond my comprehension.

I've run with more totally useless pure level 14 barbarians than I have gimped multi-classed characters. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever run with a gimped multi-class character.

MysticTheurge
01-18-2008, 08:29 PM
The idea of a true multiclass, as you put it, does not exist anymore. That went the way of the dodo and TSR.

I'm going to kind of disagree here.

The D&D 3.5 rules strongly encourage you to keep your classes within 1 level of each other (with the few exceptions created by Favored Classes) and thus, even under 3.5, one could consider 7/7 to more of a "true multiclass" than 2/12.

Invalid_86
01-18-2008, 11:56 PM
Just out of curiosity what effect do you think it would have on the game if DDO actually enforced the multiclassing xp penalty/favored class rules from 3.5?

Riorik
01-19-2008, 12:13 AM
Hi,

It may make more sense to set your character level not based on levels but based overall on your highest level. So a character who is 4/2/2 would be treated as a level 4 character for the purposes of quests until you are able to advance a class above 4. Their individual advancement would remain as 4,2 or 2 for the respective class advancement. .

What you describe is a little similar to how 1st Edition AD&D treated multiclass characters. Not exact, but similar - without getting into a long explanation, it's a bit flawed and unbalanced. As another mentioned, some classes mesh well and others do not - how do you judge when you have an effective build and when you do not?

MysticTheurge
01-19-2008, 01:01 AM
Just out of curiosity what effect do you think it would have on the game if DDO actually enforced the multiclassing xp penalty/favored class rules from 3.5?

As they're written in D&D?

It would have no effect what-so-ever. There's more than enough XP in DDO, and, with a few exceptions, you don't have a static group of other people to "keep up with" so a % XP penalty would be pointless.

It might affect particularly casual players, but most people wouldn't care that they were getting 10% less XP overall. They'd still hit the cap relatively quickly and then it would be entirely irrelevant.

(As a side note, this is also why the Level Adjustment rules, as they're written in D&D would be pretty pointless.)

Geonis
01-19-2008, 01:36 AM
srsly? because of alignment right? doh. so maybe just ranger/bard then. doesn't sound as good. just an idea at this point anyway

Ranger/Bard is seriously awesome. Especially with the upcoming fixes to ranged combat, my Ranger 2/Bard 11 is going to melt face!!! With my Bard songs, Elf Bow Enhancements (to damage, as my to hit is plenty high), a good Str, and the Rage spell, my damage bonus is pretty darn high and add in the effect bows and Manyshot and you can start to see what is possible.

My only regret is after I hit 10 Bard/2 Ranger, I was thinking of adding 2 Ftr to get Precise Shot and Imp Precise Shot, I instead went for another level of Bard.

Invalid_86
01-19-2008, 12:50 PM
(As a side note, this is also why the Level Adjustment rules, as they're written in D&D would be pretty pointless.)


Unless your level adjusted cap was a normal character's cap you're right. To make it fair if the current cap is 14th level then a +2 LA character's cap should be 12th level. This could have/should have been done with Drow when they came out but, well, yeah.

Hvymetal
01-19-2008, 01:50 PM
Unless your level adjusted cap was a normal character's cap you're right. To make it fair if the current cap is 14th level then a +2 LA character's cap should be 12th level. This could have/should have been done with Drow when they came out but, well, yeah.
Now that would have been an interesting development had they done it that way..

Mad_Bombardier
01-19-2008, 04:47 PM
Now that would have been an interesting development had they done it that way..They would have had to have let Drow get full SR (with no enhancements), but yes LA would have been nice for Drow.

ehcsztein
01-20-2008, 03:05 PM
Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?

I got a halfling 7 ranger 7 fighter going right now. I absolutely love it. Going to 9/7 at 16.

The build is driven by feat and enhancement flexibility for respec at higher levels. Figure at 20 it'll be something like 12/8 or so.

This will allow me to tweak enhancements and feat combos to accomplish many play styles within one build.

It is one of my original 28 pt builds and has yet to hit 1750 but still does really well.

Recently started a 32+tome rebuild following basically the same progression.

Invalid_86
01-20-2008, 07:33 PM
The old multiclass system was badly broken, as was dual classing.

Who can forget the ultimate in badly applied dual classing rules- the 1st edition Bard!

Man for being such an iconic rules set in hindsight it was really badly written. But you have to start somewhere, right?

Ildaron
01-21-2008, 01:45 PM
They would have had to have let Drow get full SR (with no enhancements), but yes LA would have been nice for Drow.

Racial spells as well.

EinarMal
01-21-2008, 01:58 PM
I always thought it was kind of odd you can see people's character class split at all. That is a big part of the problem as people judge a "book by it's cover" kind of thing and some people just don't understand multi-classing. A good solution would be to simply show total level and allow people to choose what icon shows up in the group panel.

That way how you got there is your own business.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 02:01 PM
I was in a group in Gianthold, looking for another player and someone who had 4 levels of Cleric, 4 levels of Wizard, and 2 levels of Fighter was asking to join. The leader didn't want to let him join, and I honestly couldn't think of a good reason to let him join either. If I new the player, maybe, but some combinations make no sense.

Trinarius
01-21-2008, 04:26 PM
I always thought it was kind of odd you can see people's character class split at all. That is a big part of the problem as people judge a "book by it's cover" kind of thing and some people just don't understand multi-classing. A good solution would be to simply show total level and allow people to choose what icon shows up in the group panel.

That way how you got there is your own business.

/signed

sigtrent
01-21-2008, 05:45 PM
I was in a group in Gianthold, looking for another player and someone who had 4 levels of Cleric, 4 levels of Wizard, and 2 levels of Fighter was asking to join. The leader didn't want to let him join, and I honestly couldn't think of a good reason to let him join either. If I new the player, maybe, but some combinations make no sense.

Why not let him in the group and find out first hand what he does? Perhaps you could learn something, or perhaps you could teach him something.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 05:54 PM
Why not let him in the group and find out first hand what he does? Perhaps you could learn something, or perhaps you could teach him something.

I wasn't the group leader, it was someone else's perogative to determine who he wanted to let into the group or not.

Even so, I don't see what good a 4 Cleric/4 Wizard/2 Fighter is. They aren't very synergistic classes. If it was a combination of classes that I could see being effective, or even if it was someone I knew and trusted as a player, I might have fought for him. But he was a complete stranger with a bizarre build and I wasn't the leader.

Invalid_86
01-21-2008, 06:47 PM
Sounds like a challenge to me- what use can be found for a Cleric 4/Wizard 4/ Fighter 2? Maybe someone has thought of one?

It was a classic half elf multiclass back in the day. How does it stack up here?

Slayer918
01-21-2008, 06:51 PM
I wasn't the group leader, it was someone else's perogative to determine who he wanted to let into the group or not.

Even so, I don't see what good a 4 Cleric/4 Wizard/2 Fighter is. They aren't very synergistic classes. If it was a combination of classes that I could see being effective, or even if it was someone I knew and trusted as a player, I might have fought for him. But he was a complete stranger with a bizarre build and I wasn't the leader.

Maybe specced for 7 cleric/5 wizard/2 fighter gives you self haste/displacement/rage and Divine power so you dont lose any BaB... could still hit 30 str, +2/+2 divine favor, Heal Scrolls on what an 8? Rez scrolls on a 4 I think, Use of Every wand in the game, wouldn't be easy to play but it does have its benefits...

HumanJHawkins
01-21-2008, 07:03 PM
It is also up to the players to keep an open mind and other players to show people what some builds can do.<CUT>

Yes, but welcome to the MMO experience... The ratio of kind people to jerks, idiots to geniuses, and the wise to the foolish, is all just slightly better than in real life. So, don't hold your breath waiting for people to open their minds.

In fact, why wait for anything if a group is not letting you in... Just start your own group and invite some of the other odd class combos out there into it. And, if you still have trouble building a group, then you'll unfortunately have to make a decision: Conform to what the masses want, or avoid the masses by soloing a lot. :(

Trinarius
01-21-2008, 07:18 PM
I wasn't the group leader, it was someone else's perogative to determine who he wanted to let into the group or not.

Even so, I don't see what good a 4 Cleric/4 Wizard/2 Fighter is. They aren't very synergistic classes. If it was a combination of classes that I could see being effective, or even if it was someone I knew and trusted as a player, I might have fought for him. But he was a complete stranger with a bizarre build and I wasn't the leader.

It might be easier for you to "see" (or understand) the good, if you have a clearer understanding of what each class can do. I didn't understand Clerics until I created one. And the same was true of a Rogue, and of a Ranger. But, that's part of the wonder of DDO; it allows you to experiment and find a lot of interesting little things to take advantage of, if you're so inclined. There's a junior member in my guild who had only played Fighters for a long time. It took a little coaxing, but he finally gave a Wizard a try, and found that he enjoys it as much as his Fighters. Some of us simply take it to the next level by mixing what we like most from several classes in a single character. For us, that's part of what makes this game so much fun. Perhaps you'll give it a try, so you might "see what good" a multi-classed character can be?!

Kerr
01-21-2008, 07:57 PM
It might be easier for you to "see" (or understand) the good, if you have a clearer understanding of what each class can do.

Note the sig. I have a near capped Cleric, Wizard, and a capped Ranger, as well as a 10 Fighter. I'm pretty clear on what classes can do, and have played D&D PnP for 15 years. That combination of classes really doesn't seem to be all that synergistic.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 08:22 PM
Note the sig. I have a near capped Cleric, Wizard, and a capped Ranger, as well as a 10 Fighter. I'm pretty clear on what classes can do, and have played D&D PnP for 15 years. That combination of classes really doesn't seem to be all that synergistic.

I'd actually say in a D&D game that combination of classes could be very useful. (Though of course there'd you'd be more like a Clr 3/Wiz 3/Ftr 2/MT 2.)

It's really going to depend on how min/max-y the other players in your group are, and as a result how min/max-y your DM has to be.

Vormaerin
01-21-2008, 09:47 PM
It doesn't look awful to me. Not great, but not completely useless, especially in DDO where spellpoints stack. I do suspect its a build in progress where it probably won't look like that at higher levels. I have a character I'm working on that suffered from that in the early going. IT was kind of subpar for a stretch before everything really reached the synergy level. But it wasn't useless.

Anyway, how is it going to hurt you to bring him along and see if he's actually useless? There's very little content in this game that requires a full party of "good" characters to play. You are far more likely to get in trouble from incompetent play or conflicting playstyles than you are from a so called "underpowered" build.

I really can't stand that kind of thinking and I leave parties that show that attitude (they'll probably be dorks during the quest too, if they are dorks during the assembly). It was especially funny when I was the one getting rejected (guy didn't think there was anything for a ranger/rogue to do in The Pit... besides like.. dps, jumping, healing, etc..). Group ended up losing its cleric since he didn't feel like playing with players like that, either. So we formed our own group and had fun.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 10:55 PM
I'd actually say in a D&D game that combination of classes could be very useful. (Though of course there'd you'd be more like a Clr 3/Wiz 3/Ftr 2/MT 2.)

It's really going to depend on how min/max-y the other players in your group are, and as a result how min/max-y your DM has to be.

Even in PnP it'd be borderline. No 3rd level spells for either caster class, have to deal with spell failure in armor, the two fighter levels really only provide extra HP and a fighter based Feat. The cleric can wear heavy armor anyway, though the Wizard faces the spell failure. Number of spells low, number of rounds spells are active, still only 4 minutes at best, attack bonus is going to be suffering significantly with 5 levels of Wiz/MT. Saves are just going to be whacked.

It's a no even about min/maxing, it's just really subpar.

Kerr
01-21-2008, 11:02 PM
Anyway, how is it going to hurt you to bring him along and see if he's actually useless? There's very little content in this game that requires a full party of "good" characters to play. You are far more likely to get in trouble from incompetent play or conflicting playstyles than you are from a so called "underpowered" build.

Eh, as I said, I wasn't the leader, wasn't my call to make.

Tarnoc
01-21-2008, 11:23 PM
well one important factor the op has convently left out about old school mc

is that humans could only raise one at a time and had to drop the first untill they serpass lvls

in the second and the other races that could multi class freely had serious max lvl restrictions on them

Draiden
01-22-2008, 01:37 AM
The funniest thing ever is playing the sorc11/pally3 melee build. Max'd STR, Saves through the roof, displacement+AC boosts from pally lvls and raid loot, mad buffing (with 30pt rsts).

You can feel the tension as the group rounds up and sees you wearing mith fp and wielding a sword and shield. Then you all zone in, you toss a bunch of buffs on yourself and requesting party members, leaving 3/4 of a mana bar left. Then you pop your own extended haste (which the other tanks are happy to see) and tear through mobs with the efficiency of the other guys. Sometimes choosing to drop a firewall, intimidate and swing away... or CK with the same strat... or Solid Fog... then the haste wears off and drop another haste of your own without asking somebody for it... rinse and repeat.

By the 2nd or 3rd time popping haste, you will notice the other tanks hugging on you as the last few seconds of the previous one wears off. About half way through, when ppl are checking kill counts, the tension is gone and you start to get questions on how in the **** you built this character.

;)

I will probably take 2 lvls of fighter with the new cap, but open for ideas there. I opted against the rogue lvl's early on, although evasion would be nice. Any other ideas are welcome.

Point is: play around as much as you would like with multi's. Very few people can say, "I'm a pure fighter kinda player," or "I'm a pure pally kinda guy." If the only-one-way-to-skin-a-cat kind of people had the courage to experiment with multi's (as you clearly do), then they would have a lot more fun with this game.

I am going to /sign the request for changing your icon, however. That would help tremendously on this build!

Draiden
01-22-2008, 01:46 AM
While I'm on a MC rant...

My newest (and favorite) project is the dual-wielding khopesh build. Human Fighter7/Ranger6/Barb1.

Dualing the Chaosblades (constantly healing up), speedy as all **** (you'd be surprised what speed gets you in this game), taking ranger tempest PrC rank when it hits (more AC and TONS of dps), crit spec'd for slashing to maximize the khopesh, all STR, soon to have Ram's Might... I would be surprised if a pure, Dwarven Barbarian could out dps... manyshot... . Not to mention the self-healing abilities from wands and human imp recovery III.

FUN build. Try it.

Next? Maybe 1 more fighter and 1 more barbarian?

ViVid7th
01-22-2008, 04:54 AM
I'm with Draiden on this one. MCing can be really fun when done right and thought out. When it goes wrong, Ugh...

Prime example is a spin off of the sorc11/pally3. This guys was only a Sorc4/Pally3 on a SC run with my pure fighter. Whacked spell list, using a robe with a heavy shield ("Because armor gives Arcane Failure" >.<), Cha/Dex as the high stats using a B-sword. Guy was talking about going a melee build with mostly Paladin and Fighter levels after, supposed to be with "Awesome melee damage AoE spells too" (Burning Hands). To be fair, it was the player more than anything. Ran up and melee'd everything to try to tank it, or casted burning hands, thought his spells were picked by the computer when he leveled... The list goes on.

Anyways, we had a primary Intimitank with us that run and I was able to go my build's primary purpose, THFing. Ended up spending over half the instance Axe and Board chasing down mobs on this guy (Cause he too had a high Intimidate skill and used it) to prevent the mobs from crushing the casters once they killed him (Btw, his death count was 13).

But the problem is that a whacked MC character can be the sign of a subpar player. It can show poor planning and understanding of the classes. This guy was playing on a Drow even. Hard to believe someone could actually play the game to that point and miss that much.

MysticTheurge
01-22-2008, 06:51 AM
Even in PnP it'd be borderline. No 3rd level spells for either caster class, have to deal with spell failure in armor, the two fighter levels really only provide extra HP and a fighter based Feat. The cleric can wear heavy armor anyway, though the Wizard faces the spell failure. Number of spells low, number of rounds spells are active, still only 4 minutes at best, attack bonus is going to be suffering significantly with 5 levels of Wiz/MT. Saves are just going to be whacked.

It's a no even about min/maxing, it's just really subpar.

I don't know.

With 2 levels of MT you've got third level spells from both classes.

The fighter levels probably aren't necessary, but again, it depends on how min/max-y everyone's being.

Either way, you really only suffer in terms of BAB and HP, and another two levels of MT gets you Divine Power, which means you don't have to worry about BAB any more. Add in Bear's Endurance, False Life and a few other spells and HP are less of an issue too.

As for the armor question. You either pick up Still Spell and just wear armor, or you pick up the spells to make armor irrelevant (Mage Armor, Shield, Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image, Blink).

Riorik
01-22-2008, 07:07 AM
I was in a group in Gianthold, looking for another player and someone who had 4 levels of Cleric, 4 levels of Wizard, and 2 levels of Fighter was asking to join. The leader didn't want to let him join, and I honestly couldn't think of a good reason to let him join either. If I new the player, maybe, but some combinations make no sense.

That is an odd combination and I don't really see what a caster/divine gets at 4th level of their class that encouraged them to take their classes in that pattern.


It might be easier for you to "see" (or understand) the good, if you have a clearer understanding of what each class can do. I didn't understand Clerics until I created one. And the same was true of a Rogue, and of a Ranger. But, that's part of the wonder of DDO; it allows you to experiment and find a lot of interesting little things to take advantage of, if you're so inclined. There's a junior member in my guild who had only played Fighters for a long time. It took a little coaxing, but he finally gave a Wizard a try, and found that he enjoys it as much as his Fighters. Some of us simply take it to the next level by mixing what we like most from several classes in a single character. For us, that's part of what makes this game so much fun. Perhaps you'll give it a try, so you might "see what good" a multi-classed character can be?!

I understand your point, however, it just seems more like a generalism/general statement than something relevant to this particular situation.

In general, most quests only require competence from a portion of the party to complete successfully. Most, including raids, can tolerate players that just sit still and "don't touch anything" without risking success (except the Abbot, currently). I understand the original_poster wasn't the party leader - in the PL's shoes, depending on the mix and the quest, I'd probably have let this guy in and just planned on an extremely limited contribution to completion.

Trinarius
01-22-2008, 08:24 AM
Note the sig. I have a near capped Cleric, Wizard, and a capped Ranger, as well as a 10 Fighter. I'm pretty clear on what classes can do, and have played D&D PnP for 15 years. That combination of classes really doesn't seem to be all that synergistic.

I'm certainly not trying to put you on the defensive here, so if I've done that, my apologies.

My point was that, after having played several pure-class characters, I didn't enjoy playing them as much because of their inherent limitations, and, in most cases, that their strong dependencies upon other classes are a huge limitation in the all-too-frequent occasions where characters of the dependent classes simply aren't available.

Haven't you ever been playing along and think "I wish my character could do that!"? In many cases it isn't about synergies, but about what you want your character to be able to do. I mean, just because you can climb a mountain doesn't mean that you can't *also* dive the ocean. My main character is a very complicated multi-classed arrangement that's often quite the challenge to play. But I find that provides me with more personal enjoyment of the game.

My main character currently has two levels of Rogue, and he can find and disable most traps in the game, even on Elite, and open most locks in the game, even on Elite; he has five levels of Ranger, so he can dual wield most weapons in the game and is quite effective with all manner of ranged weapons, not to mention the fact that he can always heal himself and both heal and repair others in the frequent absence of a Cleric; and he has seven levels of Wizard, meaning that he can cast every arcane spell in the game up through fourth level spells at the moment. To pull this off requires a great depth of understanding for each class's requirements, but also an understanding of how portions of each class's abilities *can* be combined effectively, even if they don't *appear* to be synergistic.

In the end, multi-classing gives *my* character the abilities *I* want him to have, and I enjoy that aspect of the game quite a bit. The drawback is that most players who don't multi-class don't understand it, and aren't willing to open their minds to the associated potential. And, that's why the OP asserted that multi-class characters are relegated to the status of second-class citizens.

Sometimes it's not for others to understand, but rather, to simply accept.

Mercules
01-22-2008, 09:02 AM
Yesterday my friend mentioned he was probably replacing one or the other of two pure classed characters as he was getting tired of their limitation. He had min-maxed them to the edge and they were perfect for what they were designed to do... and boring when that wasn't needed. He was talking about multi-classed builds extensively as he could make a character that was good at several things, not just one.

llevenbaxx
01-22-2008, 09:54 AM
Yesterday my friend mentioned he was probably replacing one or the other of two pure classed characters as he was getting tired of their limitation. He had min-maxed them to the edge and they were perfect for what they were designed to do... and boring when that wasn't needed. He was talking about multi-classed builds extensively as he could make a character that was good at several things, not just one.

In the same boat here. Just recently deleted a level 14 dwarven fighter to start yet another MC (rog/fighter/wizard).He was a greatly affective character to play but there just wasnt enough to him after playing some of my other characters. It all comes down to how fun the character is to play in the end imo. Thankfully I didnt spend too much time pimping him out.:)

Hafeal
01-22-2008, 12:21 PM
The trend you can see is that multi-classing is really hard in DDO. It can be amazingly successful. Unfortunately, the system is so complicated that you are best playing 1-2 classes to max to learn the game and plan to lay out your character (unless you are following a formula build you find on the forums, for example).

For the thinkers, this is great. For others, such as 10 year old kids, the attention span and concentration is just not the same and interest is easily lost. It is hard to remain disciplined in making a MC character. I think the majority, of kids in particular, want to make whatever whim provides them when they are online.

This is a challenge to DDO because it is so easy to gimp a MC character upon creation.


Kerr, I understand your situation and the reluctance of inviting that build into your party - especially if it was an elite quest. I would offer up, though, that when I am in a group which I lead or which is looking for players, I always advocate taking the first 6 who respond, who are level appropriate, regardless of class(es). It leads to some struggles but more often I find it leads to non-traditional party combinations which are very successful and you learn things about yourself and others as you have by having to solve problems in unique ways. It is like that party that just gets thrown together in pnp and off you go ...
,

Arianrhod
01-22-2008, 12:46 PM
To some extent, attitudes towards multiclass characters (and whether to invite them to groups) have to do with playstyle preferences. Some folks want to put together a group they're familiar with and run a quest they're familiar with in a familiar way. This works well for speed runs, loot runs, that sort of thing. Inviting someone you're not sure will "pull their weight" can lead to a quest taking a lot longer than expected. On the other hand are the folks who like to throw together odd combinations of characters and see what happens. When you've done the same quest the same way a certain number of times, you just don't even want to set foot back inside. But with an unusual group makeup, it can be a whole new challenge. As it turns out, people who like to make up multiclass characters are often the same ones who like to run quests in new and interesting ways, so it's not such a bad thing that those are the groups most likely to invite the multiclasser in the first place ;)

kingfisher
01-22-2008, 01:07 PM
Thats it. tonight on ghallanda- multi-class only grouping. pure classes need not apply.

Mercules
01-22-2008, 01:14 PM
Thats it. tonight on ghallanda- multi-class only grouping. pure classes need not apply.

How do you feel about Splash classes? My Cleric/Rogue I much prefer to play as a Rogue(trapsmith) that can heal/buff instead of a Cleric(healer/buffer) that can trapsmith even though I only have one Rogue level.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-22-2008, 04:07 PM
My first toon, and still my main, is a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. He was an evolution in thought that I might have done differently, if I had known all the changes DDO was to have.......but IMO, he is still a very fun toon to play and gives a lot to any party.

However, almost all of my toons since him have been pure classes (until recently)....and I have made a bunch of toons on every server.

Pure classes in DDO have big advantages with the action point system, that multi-classes will never get.
Pure classes are much more accepted.
Pure casters have the highest lvl spells, that are very good in DDO!......plus, all those super high damaging fire walls we are used to do not come from someone with only a few arcane lvls in his build.......can probably say the same about super heal spells as well.

That being said though, I have seen some awesome multi-classed builds......especially as battle clerics......and splash rogues.

I recently have made two versions of what will eventually be a Rog2/Clr7/Wiz5 combo. the one with the most promise will be WF and take the Lord of Blades cleric enhancements. He will be mostly a battle cleric build, with evasion and Blur, Haste and Displacement.
The problem I face with this and other multi-class build ideas is what stats to give them and deciding at what lvl to take which class. Of course the class with the most skill points should be taken first (rogue).....what I think I will do is take all his cleric lvls next.....run him as a highly skilled cleric and I think he will be accepted into parties easily.....then take the Wiz lvls last.

Other ideas are RgrX/Wiz5, BrbX/Brd6?, Pallie mixes.....maybe with Sor.

Swordalot
01-22-2008, 04:30 PM
I think, just for insanity, some time I'm gonna roll the ultimate in multiclass characters. I'm going to use a roll to decide alignment. A roll for stat allotment. A roll for race. And then, at each level up, a roll for class. Yup. 3 Cleric / 5 Bard / 6 Barbarian Halfling with 17 dex, 15 int, and 13 strength, here I come.

Ghaldar
01-23-2008, 10:34 AM
People who have never tried a multi class tend to be the MOST anti multiclass in the game.....of course they are often the same types that do not understand that there are many ways to skin a cat. I have run across some highly skilled players....and usually they have a unique multiclass build. They understand the game inside and out and build something interesting and new. They have the gear and tomes to build it and make something very solid if not better than pure builds. Enhancements and combination of those and feets make a build...but whatever those who do not like MC never will till the try it and see for themselves how to do it right.

kingfisher
01-23-2008, 05:15 PM
How do you feel about Splash classes? My Cleric/Rogue I much prefer to play as a Rogue(trapsmith) that can heal/buff instead of a Cleric(healer/buffer) that can trapsmith even though I only have one Rogue level.

splash classes more than welcome. anything that is thinking outside the box. how likely is it that you would only have ONE profession in your life anyway? Even the doctors of the world steal a few cars before med school.

ViVid7th
01-23-2008, 05:42 PM
My first toon, and still my main, is a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. He was an evolution in thought that I might have done differently, if I had known all the changes DDO was to have.......but IMO, he is still a very fun toon to play and gives a lot to any party.


Actually, I can see the viability of a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. 3rd level buffs, fireball tweaked in with TWF, evasion and sneak attack with FE and alot of skill points. Just that Mithril Twilight Armor can be hard to find.

It shows something that might be the sign of a slightly off kilter player, and the crazies are the best.

"Hey, I said I wasn't stupid! I said nothing about sane!"

Hafeal
01-25-2008, 03:07 PM
I have run across some highly skilled players....and usually they have a unique multiclass build. They understand the game inside and out and build something interesting and new. They have the gear and tomes to build it and make something very solid if not better than pure builds. Enhancements and combination of those and feets make a build...but whatever those who do not like MC never will till the try it and see for themselves how to do it right.

I don't think the idea is that MC cannot be successful. It can. Unfortunately it is MUCH easier to make a bad or gimped MC build than a good one, which has been acknowledged by the devs.

Thus, for casual players or for players who do not have the same skill, understanding, tools, and/or loot, MC can be frustrating and discouraging.

I believe suggesting ways to make MC more viable for a broader audience is a good idea.

Invalid_86
01-30-2008, 03:06 PM
Multiclassed characters have three other hurdles ahead of them that they don't have in PnP.

1. Enhancements. Among the balance problems that they bring is a discouragement to multiclass. They heavily favor single class characters.

2. Lack of real Prestige Classes.

3. The spell point system. In PnP casters have to rely more on lower level spells- they can't just spam a handful of higher level spells.

It's a shame. Multiclassing is fun in pnp.

PhoenixRajoNight
01-30-2008, 03:13 PM
Hi,

I have been playing for a few months now and have noticed an issue with trying to play a true multi class, by "True" I mean keeping the levels close for each class. Many groups I have encountered will not ask you to join because you can't yet access a specific spell or feat because you don't have the levels and since your multi-classed you never will. Also, you are penalized in quests, especially solo quests because you character is level 6, but your individual levels are either 3/3 or 2/2/2 and you don't have the skills a normal level 6 would have.

It may make more sense to set your character level not based on levels but based overall on your highest level. So a character who is 4/2/2 would be treated as a level 4 character for the purposes of quests until you are able to advance a class above 4. Their individual advancement would remain as 4,2 or 2 for the respective class advancement. I understand this may take longer for a multi-class to raise levels, but once they did raise levels they would have the power and skills they deserve for taking the time to level multiple classes. A character who is a level 8 fighter, level 7 rouge and level 6 wizard should be able to access all their skills, they have earned them, but under the current rules you will never be able to advance a multi class beyond 8/8 or 5/5/6.

If you build your character right your fine, if your making multiclass chars that are effective to chars lvls below you, then your not making a good multiclass, sorry but until they implement prestige classes, this is just going to happen. Mystic Thuerge is a nice prestige class, but you'll never see it because peeps alrdy whin that spellies are overpowered.

sigtrent
01-30-2008, 03:15 PM
Multiclassed characters have three other hurdles ahead of them that they don't have in PnP.
1. Enhancements. Among the balance problems that they bring is a discouragement to multiclass. They heavily favor single class characters..

At the moment enhancements actualy favor mulit class characters in a number of ways. A dual class character can buy 4 stat bumps for the same cost of 3 on a pure class due to the progressive costs. The top tier enhancements are often prohibitively expensive and a multi class has a wider range of enhancements to choose from.


2. Lack of real Prestige Classes.

I always found multi classing was more a short cut to Prestige Classes than Prestige Classes were a benefit to multi classing.


3. The spell point system. In PnP casters have to rely more on lower level spells- they can't just spam a handful of higher level spells. .

I agree here. Multi classing is difficult for casters but I find that in PnP as well. Prestige classes are what make multi classing casters more possible due to those "caster level" bumps.

Luthen
01-30-2008, 03:34 PM
Hi,

I have been playing for a few months now and have noticed an issue with trying to play a true multi class, by "True" I mean keeping the levels close for each class. Many groups I have encountered will not ask you to join because you can't yet access a specific spell or feat because you don't have the levels and since your multi-classed you never will. Also, you are penalized in quests, especially solo quests because you character is level 6, but your individual levels are either 3/3 or 2/2/2 and you don't have the skills a normal level 6 would have.

It may make more sense to set your character level not based on levels but based overall on your highest level. So a character who is 4/2/2 would be treated as a level 4 character for the purposes of quests until you are able to advance a class above 4. Their individual advancement would remain as 4,2 or 2 for the respective class advancement. I understand this may take longer for a multi-class to raise levels, but once they did raise levels they would have the power and skills they deserve for taking the time to level multiple classes. A character who is a level 8 fighter, level 7 rouge and level 6 wizard should be able to access all their skills, they have earned them, but under the current rules you will never be able to advance a multi class beyond 8/8 or 5/5/6.

I'd say you need to design a better multi-class or something. I'm not being rude just practical. I have a few multi-class builds and each of them is strengthened by their build not hindered. At every level they have done well. Perhaps you just need to think harder about what you're mixing and why.

Kaboth
01-30-2008, 03:51 PM
What ticks me off is the fact I have an archer build that doesnt qualify for the Deep Woods Sniper stuff simply because he is not 6 levels of ranger.

binnsr
01-30-2008, 04:05 PM
What ticks me off is the fact I have an archer build that doesnt qualify for the Deep Woods Sniper stuff simply because he is not 6 levels of ranger.

or mine that doesn't qualify because she isn't 6 ranger or elf (human 14ftr/2rgr stuck at 3f/2r atm :D)

Invalid_86
01-30-2008, 04:35 PM
What ticks me off is the fact I have an archer build that doesnt qualify for the Deep Woods Sniper stuff simply because he is not 6 levels of ranger.


Now if we had real Prestige Classes you and other multi-class characters wouldn't have that problem!

Talon_Moonshadow
01-31-2008, 05:29 PM
Last night I had an experiance I had not had since Mod 5 came out.......the experiance of entering the unknown with a group that did not know what to expect at all.

Times like these make my Rgr7/Rog3/Wiz5 feel powerful......because I usually have to tools to deal with any new situaion and can quickly adapt to unexpected content....

Granted, a lot of this has to do with the equipment I have and not really the build, but I'd like to think that my build reflects my playing style and priorities.......versatility.

Last night we were doing the quest where you cant kill the spiders........no deidacated rogue in the party, but both me and another splash rogue handled all traps just fine.
My paralyser was extemely useful.
And when caught with our pants down at the end fight we almost wiped.........but there I was.....displaced, shield blocking and wand/potion healing as best I could.....healing others and myself through a rain of spells we were not buffed up against...the cleric dropped and almost at exactly the same time, everyone but me dropped!
I rez ringed the cleric and then I died........the cleric got a couple people up and eventually got me up as well, but almost as soon as he did the others all died, and he ran off to try to heal himself with the enemies in tow.....eventually dying down the hall somewhere.............I healed and buffed myself.....cast invisibility and started grabbing all the stones and ran for the shrine....
Made it to the door of the shrine and blocked the door.......got held.....got incapped.....but still blocked the door.....everyone except the fighter who's stone I missed got back up....healed up.....saved me and finished the quest!

Maybe any build coulda done it.......but my second-class citisen saved the day last night!

Talon_Moonshadow
01-31-2008, 05:44 PM
Actually, I can see the viability of a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. 3rd level buffs, fireball tweaked in with TWF, evasion and sneak attack with FE and alot of skill points. Just that Mithril Twilight Armor can be hard to find.

It shows something that might be the sign of a slightly off kilter player, and the crazies are the best.

"Hey, I said I wasn't stupid! I said nothing about sane!"

Haste and displacement rock!
When the cap was 10, I saw no value in Rgr lvls after 6 except BAB....not true now though.
Rgr/Rog combos are very good rogues.....not the best, but very good.
I can also use stoneskin scrolls with a decent chance of success.......haven't worried about spell failure, as I ve consentrated on buffs.....w/extend spell I get 12 min rgr buffs, and 10 min wiz buffs.....1min hast/displacement.....not bad.

Now at lvl15, I have 7Rgr lvls.......kept Search maxed and almost maxed Spot......plan on another lvl of Rog to keep my rogue skills up.......I'm most valuable to most groups for my rogue skillls.

Quanefel
01-31-2008, 06:00 PM
From the sound of your post, you are not actually familiar with D&D 3.0 or 3.5 rules.

The idea of a true multiclass, as you put it, does not exist anymore. That went the way of the dodo and TSR.

Wizards of the Coast uses a 1 level per level type advancement. So yes, you cannot really be a 3\3, in a party with 4ths, like you used to based on experience pts. A 3\3 = 6th level now. You must sacrifice depth of abilities for breadth of abilities or flexibility.

The old multiclass system was badly broken, as was dual classing. It was way too inexpensive to gain class features.

In the current, and much more balanced system, there is a steep price for multiclassing. That being said, people do it all the time. But most multiclassing is really just a "splash" of something else. All Cleric with 1 lvl of Fighter\Paladin for the martial wpns. Or all Bard\1 Sorc. Or the old Batman, mostly rogue with 2 paladin levels for saves. Etc etc. Even the fighter\mage multiclass ends up being just a couple levels of fighter and mostly mage now for all the higher level spells.

A true 7\7 is something I have not seen.

Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?

I have an 8/7 ftr/mage. Soon to be 8/8 once she gets to 16th lvl(10/10 at 20th lvl). She works out great and is one of my favorite builds. It takes a good understanding of the game and of course, the right gear. She was made with the Bladesinger in mind. If you rememeber from AD&D what that was. Fighter/Mages were my favorite thing to play back when I played P&P. I might post her stats and stuff sometime. See what people think.

baddax
02-04-2008, 08:37 PM
I usualy, play multiclassed characters. They key is to have a good build plan from lvl 1. After lvl 1 your stats are set and unless you get lucky and happen to have a good combination of skills/abilities its too late! Also look at what you want from each class you multiclass and make sure u can get it.

Be up front with the group when you join if they want a trap monkey, and you only dabble tell them so. Then they can decide to Wait for a full rogue or run with you. I also use the term Back-up whatever ie "back up cleric if cleric goes down" etc etc. the advantages of multiclassing is VERSATILITY. ie. Pally cleric you can be cleric if need be or assist the cleric in healing between battle and be on the front lines when the S!@# hits the fan(giving those around you the +'s to AC and Saves). Define your role dont let others define it for u. Also realize some classes mesh better than others ie. clericpally, wizzie-rogue, Rogue-Ranger for sure etc.

Also look at the feats you will be using and the stats required. ie. twohanded fighter and two handed weapon specilization feats are str based ie. 17 str(not sure about superior). Make sure u get the prerequesits and you should be good.

Another thing is the other character class or classes can be used to improve weaknesses in the primary class ie saves etc. I think alot of people dont like multiclasses because they are poorly designed. Like i said it should be decided at lvl 1 if at all possible. I also think alot of people dont want to take the time to build a good multiclass so they stay "pure" classed. Its alot easier to play cookie cutter templated pally rangers etc., much harder to design and build your own. Just like most people would like to just go out and buy X car instead of having a costom built one. One nice thing is that if you do a good one it is very rewarding becasue so few people will have one like yours. Also like it or not alot of people are going to be basing their opinions of you build on "multiclassing in general" i believe these are a good set of ground rules for multiclassing well.