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View Full Version : My idea for DDO traps = D&D traps



winsom
01-17-2008, 02:14 PM
In PnP D&D the Disable Device skill can be re-used on most traps if the rogue fails to disable it. However, failing at the Disable will typically result in that trap affecting the rogue!

The D&D penalty for failure is the trap itself and not a blown control box as we have in DDO. This is what I would like changed.

I suggest that :

DDO changes the Disable Device mechanic such that the rogue needs to stand in the active trap before clicking the Disable Device skill button. DDO control boxes would now only serve as warning (when found) that a trap is nearby. They would no longer disable the traps. Standing anywhere inside of the trap will be the new way of accessing the "control box" functionality.

When standing inside of the trap, the rogue would receive fraction-of-a-second-long buff that gives trap-immunity. This buff is just long enough for the very-attentive rogue to step back out of harms-way or to activate his Disable Device skill. This trap-immunity buff lasts for the duration of the Disable Device animation. It would not last long enough for a super-speedy rogue to run through the trap, unless that design is intentional.

If the rogue is successful at Disable Device then he has nothing to worry about, but if he fails he suffers the trap because his immunity-buff now vanishes.

The Disable device skill could be re-activated to try again, just as the skill works in real D&D. There is no blown control box feature. In DDO this re-use could give the trap-immunity buff (again), or perhaps no trap-immunity buff for some particularly nasty traps.

Turbine could reduce this unseen control-box-like area for extremely deadly traps.. Trial-and-error (and Reflex saves) would be required to find the hidden control box-like area to stand in. Perhaps the Disable Device button could grey-out until the rogue is standing in the correct place. If Turbine could randomize the location of these hidden control-box areas then a re-run of the same dungeon would have some uncertainty in it.

DDO traps using this new system could have their DCs increased such that disarming is no longer essentially a PASS/FAIL test. Because re-tries are possible the DCs could be quite high. The PnP D&D rogue can not typically auto-disable traps in a CR-appropriate dungeon.

DDO traps using this modified system will test more than a player's rogue skill build. His real-time reflexes and character Reflex (or other) save will frequently be put to the test.

ArkoHighStar
01-17-2008, 02:26 PM
this sounds like it is going to make disabling traps an even longer process, another reason for people to not wait for traps to be disabled.

The disabling of traps should be streamlined, search should only have to be active if you score is not 5 above the dc, in other words if the search dc is 30 and you search score is 36 the box should pop when you get the spot warning or when you set off the trap if you didn't spot it. There should be an enhancement line to speed up the disable action just like sneaking.

We shoudl be heading in the direction of parties wanting to stop to have rogues disable traps because it will make the quest easier and sometimes quicker, now there is just no point when people rarely die at higher levels from traps.

We should be able to set our own traps just like casters can. See NWN for an excellent trap setting mechanism

Jebise
01-17-2008, 02:41 PM
The disabling of traps should be streamlined, search should only have to be active if you score is not 5 above the dc, in other words if the search dc is 30 and you search score is 36 the box should pop when you get the spot warning or when you set off the trap if you didn't spot it. There should be an enhancement line to speed up the disable action just like sneaking.


Absolutely agreed on that point. Secret doors should be the same way too.




We should be heading in the direction of parties wanting to stop to have rogues disable traps because it will make the quest easier and sometimes quicker, now there is just no point when people rarely die at higher levels from traps.

I dunno... I'm thinking that traps should be damned near deadly... usually with some sort of lasting effect. maybe make you fight with a cap of 1/4 of your normal HP and 1/2 your AC for the duration of the quest, and reduce you to 1hp until you get healed. You know, give you some reason NOT to just run through them. As it stands, the only real reason to wait for traps to be disabled is if you wanted the extra (up to) 10% exp, and really, that's not enough, when you can speed run through them and get that quest plus another done in the same amount of time.

Not to derail, but I'd like to see there be a reason for groups to get the trap bonus, door bonus, and ransack bonus in all the dungeons. As it stands now, there are few groups that are looking to go ahead and smash every box, search out every door, kill every mob, and disarm every trap in a dungeon, just cause the bonuses for doing so aren't good enough, when compared to the fact that you can do 2 more quests in the same time it takes to completely do 1.

winsom
01-17-2008, 02:48 PM
this sounds like it is going to make disabling traps an even longer process, another reason for people to not wait for traps to be disabled.

Not at all. In fact, it can be faster. I'm proposing that the rogue needs to stand in a certain spot (and it doesn't have to be an exact spot) before his Disable Device button would become active. For static trap content the knowledgable player would no longer need to Search at all. He knows where to stand and press Disable. I would like to have some random-locations too, so Search is just as useful, and so knowing-the-dungeon will not always provide a speedy loot-run, unless people want to rush past the active trap..

Turbine could also require a successful Search check in order to enable the Disable, but I don't think that should always be the case. In D&D if a rogue knows where the trap is (he has the plans, or someone triggered it already) then he does not have to Search for it.

Coldin
01-17-2008, 02:51 PM
Jebise and ArkoHighstar, I think you'll be happy to know a couple things. First, some things from the WDA.


[U][B]

Traps are nastier on Hard and Elite, and more forgiving on Solo difficulty. Detection and disable difficulties are unchanged.
In some situations, an unlabeled XP bonus was erroneously applied to quest XP. This has been removed. To compensate for the possible loss of XP, the minimum and maximum bonus for disabling traps, finding secret doors, and smashing breakables has been increased. [from max 10] to 15 percent.


Second, regarding my suggestion for implementing trap setting from Codog's thread the Dog House.


Coldin,

Very well stated. Eladrin and I have discussed this many, many times. Take heart in knowing that we both really like this concept and hope to do it sometime.

--Codog

BlueLightBandit
01-17-2008, 03:32 PM
Not at all. In fact, it can be faster. I'm proposing that the rogue needs to stand in a certain spot (and it doesn't have to be an exact spot) before his Disable Device button would become active. For static trap content the knowledgable player would no longer need to Search at all. He knows where to stand and press Disable. I would like to have some random-locations too, so Search is just as useful, and so knowing-the-dungeon will not always provide a speedy loot-run, unless people want to rush past the active trap..

Turbine could also require a successful Search check in order to enable the Disable, but I don't think that should always be the case. In D&D if a rogue knows where the trap is (he has the plans, or someone triggered it already) then he does not have to Search for it.

Um... you lost me until this post right here. And with this, I disagree. I don't care how many times I've run this quest on another character, if I didn't put enough points into search on THIS character, I can't find the trap box to disable it.

And just so you know... the rogue already has to stand in a certain spot in order to disable a trap... if the rogue is not within the correct range of the trap box or chest/door and have the aforementioned targeted, then the disarm/unlock button is not "active". That's how the game works right now, I don't really see what you're trying to ADD to the game with these changes.

Traps consist of three mechanisms currently. The trap itself, the area that activates the trap, and the trap box (if applicable). The devs can make a trap across the room activate when you first enter the dungeon, or when you kill a mob, or whatever... so the feature of "standing in the trap to disarm it" is already feasible. They just haven't, which leads many to assume that they don't want the game to work that way.

Changing the game to make search less meaningful, then changing it again to add meaning to the skill you just made less meaningful... Ockham would shoot you... then drown your body, cut off your head, freeze your heart, burn your eyes and nail your feet to the ceiling before poisoning you and ruining your credit by stealing your identity and cashing in your 401(k).

Jebise
01-17-2008, 03:38 PM
Ockham would shoot you... then drown your body, cut off your head, freeze your heart, burn your eyes and nail your feet to the ceiling before poisoning you and ruining your credit by stealing your identity and cashing in your 401(k).

What if I already cashed in my 401k on a new house?

MysticTheurge
01-17-2008, 06:24 PM
Your system relies on the Rogue being able to stand in the trap without it going off in order to disable the trap.

But with a very few exceptions, traps in DDO go off when you stand in them. How do you solve this problem without making it so rogues can just pass by all the traps in the game without ever setting them off?

ArkoHighStar
01-17-2008, 06:32 PM
Not at all. In fact, it can be faster. I'm proposing that the rogue needs to stand in a certain spot (and it doesn't have to be an exact spot) before his Disable Device button would become active. For static trap content the knowledgable player would no longer need to Search at all. He knows where to stand and press Disable. I would like to have some random-locations too, so Search is just as useful, and so knowing-the-dungeon will not always provide a speedy loot-run, unless people want to rush past the active trap..

Turbine could also require a successful Search check in order to enable the Disable, but I don't think that should always be the case. In D&D if a rogue knows where the trap is (he has the plans, or someone triggered it already) then he does not have to Search for it.


having to stand in a particular spot means time wasted trying to find that spot. I will guarantee that most parties will run by you while you look for the spot even if the trap is nasty, it will be fasterto have the cleric throw a quick heal

ArkoHighStar
01-17-2008, 06:33 PM
Jebise and ArkoHighstar, I think you'll be happy to know a couple things. First, some things from the WDA.



Second, regarding my suggestion for implementing trap setting from Codog's thread the Dog House.


I saw that, and it will be interesting to see just how much more damage they do

Hambo
01-17-2008, 06:37 PM
Your system relies on the Rogue being able to stand in the trap without it going off in order to disable the trap.

But with a very few exceptions, traps in DDO go off when you stand in them. How do you solve this problem without making it so rogues can just pass by all the traps in the game without ever setting them off?

Unless already functioning my lvl 10 and higher Rogues very rarely set off traps... they tend not to trigger ambushes for that matter, unless I get stupid and bump into one of the mobs.

As far as standing in an operational trap, I do that all the time now, generally without hazard.

MysticTheurge
01-17-2008, 06:43 PM
Unless already functioning my lvl 10 and higher Rogues very rarely set off traps... they tend not to trigger ambushes for that matter, unless I get stupid and bump into one of the mobs.

Are you saying that sneaking through a trap's "detection box" doesn't set the trap off?

winsom
01-17-2008, 11:33 PM
The system currently in place isn't bad. Placing the control box inside of the trap more often would partly-accomplish what I want, but the problem with this is there is no "safe time window" to start disabling the trap before it starts doing its effect. That is why I proposed a very short trap-immunity buff that only lasts long enough for the rogue to walk in, or leap in, then hit the Disable skill icon. I personally think that would be more interesting than first Searching for a box then moving to it then hitting Disable.

This trap-immune buff would give the rogue a single attempt to disarm before worrying about the trap. Some traps should not have this luxury, but most should, if the devs one day wish to make DDO traps more D&D-like. The D&D rogue typically gets a chance to disable before he has to worry about the trap, but failing that badly enough, he risks taking the trap's damage every time.

Still, I don't think the trap-immunity buff idea is vital to the game. I wanted to illustrate how a trapsmith's job in D&D is more perilous than it is in DDO, and how control boxes should never blow up.. In D&D the rogue can not succeed 100% as easily as in DDO. I think DDO needs to raise Trap DCs, but then allow for re-try on critcal fails (with damage-effect to the rogue).

Even without this type of modification, there are things the devs can do to make the trapsmith's job more dangerous. Getting turned to stone, enervated, charmed (to attack the party, for once), teleported away, or dropped into a closing pit, or trapped behind a falling wall are good examples of adding tension to traps so a critical failure takes more than a cleric with a cure wounds wand to fix.

MrCow
01-18-2008, 12:24 AM
it will be interesting to see just how much more damage they do

From what I can gather, it looks like trap damage on hard and elite are double that of what they currently are (or x1.5 on hard, x2 on elite).

I went running my favorite "use the trap" quest to test it (Purge the Heretics on elite) and on the live servers it did 40ish damage and on Risia it was doing around 80ish. I'd hate to say this, but this is one quest where the higher trap damage just made the quest easier for me. :p

Also, I did Foundation of Discord and the traps in there on hard did around 100 per hit, on Risia. I don't remember what they do on the live servers.

Also, for The Pit on Elite I think I remember the electric traps doing around 90 damage per hit, on Risia. They do around 40-50 on the live servers, if I remember.

CDevil
01-18-2008, 04:27 AM
The disabling of traps should be streamlined, search should only have to be active if you score is not 5 above the dc, in other words if the search dc is 30 and you search score is 36 the box should pop when you get the spot warning or when you set off the trap if you didn't spot it. There should be an enhancement line to speed up the disable action just like sneaking.

We shoudl be heading in the direction of parties wanting to stop to have rogues disable traps because it will make the quest easier and sometimes quicker, now there is just no point when people rarely die at higher levels from traps.

We should be able to set our own traps just like casters can. See NWN for an excellent trap setting mechanism

I agree that trap disabling should be streamlined, but I think it should be tied to skill vs. DC to be more realistic.
(Yes, I know, "realistic" is an oxymoron when talking about the DDO world. Bear with me.)

I think there should be a two-tiered system to making trap disabling faster:

1. (Automatic) Disabling should get a little faster whenever a character levels up as a Rogue. More Rogue levels = more Rogue experience = naturally better/faster ability to disarm.

2. (Situational) Disabling speed should be further modified on the basis of Disable skill vs. DC of the trap. A Disable 30 vs. a trap DC of 10 should be very quick to accomplish. Likewise, a Disable of 20 vs. a trap DC of 30 (where the disabler is hoping for a lucky die roll) should be longer as the character would be expected to be careful with such a difficult trap.

This would also give a visual warning to the party as to what they're facing. ("Keyhole's got a Disable of 40, and it's taking forever to disarm that trap he found! Must be something REALLY bad ahead of us!")


Having said that, I think there should be some more inventive traps added to future quests, just to keep people on their toes.
For instance:

1. The "CHICKEN LITTLE" trap: This "trap" is a fake set up to look like the real thing. Often used to slow a party down or give them a false sense of security. ("A trap!" "Pish! The last two were duds!" BOOM!)

2. The "TWO-STAGE" trap: I had a DM in PnP who loved using these things. This is when you have two traps linked together, but only the first one can initially be found. The trick is that DISARMING the first trap ARMS the second one. (Trap A is active, trap B is not. Disarming (but NOT setting off) trap A arms trap B.) A second check is needed to find the second trap. (Or, you'll find out it's there when the barbarian sets it off...)

3. The "INTERCONNECTED" trap: A variation of the two-stage trap. The catch? Disarming one rearms the other. This can cause a big surprise for the party who thinks the way behind them is clear. (Traps A and B are active. Trap A is disarmed, trap B stays active. Trap B is later disarmed, trap A rearms.)

4. The "MARCO-POLO" trap: You notice how all the traps have the boxes nearby? This devious little setup involves two or more traps with transposed boxes. A search (or a high enough spot check) will reveal a box and a trap, but they aren't together. Disarming the box disarms A trap, just not the one in front of it.

5. The "WHERE'S WALDO?" trap: A simpler version of the Marco-Polo, this trap has a box somewhere a long ways away from it, usually farther into the dungeon. (A party that doesn't pay attention might think the box is a Chicken Little, since disarming it would have no visible effect.)

6. The "INVERTED" trap: Rogue does a search and finds a trap and a box. (Oh! I'll disarm it!) The catch? The trap wasn't armed in the first place! Attempting to disarm it actually activates it! (Of course, once the mistake is discovered, another check can be made to "properly" disarm the trap.)

7. The "DOUBLE-WHAMMY" TRAP: Depending on your defenses, this one can be really easy, or it can really hurt. This trap does two or more different kinds of damage (for example, a poison/acid sprayer), but only one kind at a time. This trap cannot actually be turned off. "Disarming" this trap simply changes the kind of damage it does. The upside? Most mobs don't have multiple immunities, so it's likely at least one damage type in this trap will hurt them. Those who use pulling tactics to eliminate mobs might find this little annoyance to be a blessing in disguise if they're inventive.

Anyhow, just some ideas. (Devs take note! :D )

BlueLightBandit
01-18-2008, 09:05 AM
Your system relies on the Rogue being able to stand in the trap without it going off in order to disable the trap.

But with a very few exceptions, traps in DDO go off when you stand in them. How do you solve this problem without making it so rogues can just pass by all the traps in the game without ever setting them off?

Lemme repeat myself.

Currently, in DDO, a trap consists of three parts. 1. The damaging mechanism, i.e. blades, acid, falling floor, etc. 2. The activation mechanism, i.e. a spot on the floor, rune, button, switch, etc. 3. The disabling mechanism, i.e. the "box".

That's how it works now, so the devs have the ability to set #2 (the activation mechanism) wherever they want. So in any given quest the activation mechanism for a specific trap could be across the room, it could be when you kill a mob, it could be when you use a shrine or open a door. It doesn't HAVE to be IN the damaging mechanism. The simple fact that no dungeon designer has implemented a quest like the OP suggest would infer that either A. the devs don't WANT traps like this in game, or B. the design team has a rule governing what traps can and cannot do, i.e. no nuclear explosions, no traps that fail the quest on a failed disable, etc.

So, like I said before, this "feature" is already in game, the devs haven't used it, so I don't think they are going to change any time soon.

Talcyndl
01-18-2008, 09:15 AM
The disabling of traps should be streamlined, search should only have to be active if you score is not 5 above the dc, in other words if the search dc is 30 and you search score is 36 the box should pop when you get the spot warning or when you set off the trap if you didn't spot it. There should be an enhancement line to speed up the disable action just like sneaking.

We shoudl be heading in the direction of parties wanting to stop to have rogues disable traps because it will make the quest easier and sometimes quicker, now there is just no point when people rarely die at higher levels from traps.

We should be able to set our own traps just like casters can. See NWN for an excellent trap setting mechanism


Agreed as to all points.

Having played a now-capped pure rogue I can say I rarely was given the chance to disable traps in the vast majority of quests. The process is simply too time consuming for most groups. The only exceptions are in the quests with truly deadly traps - think the blow you into spikes traps in GH or the fire room in STK. Otherwise, run, run, run.

bnrilfun
01-18-2008, 09:36 AM
I like the idea that if your spot is high enough that trap boxes automatically appear, the same with secret doors. That makes total sense. As for standing in a trap with at timer to disarm, I dont think that is the right approach. Instead put another trap on the trap box or even a chest that only affects the rogue.

This will put the burden on the rogue to ensure he disarms it successfuly. If he fails the small trap goes off making the rogue suffer in whatever way the Dev's wanted.

Oh one other thing they should just add the ability for us to double click the item and it will start the disarm or pick lock process instead of us having to click on the skill first then the item in question. This would also speed things up.

Tarackian
01-18-2008, 11:30 AM
Traps should be made deadly or debilatating to stop people from zerg though them. Think about it....are you building a trap to capture something or kill it? Why else build one? Maybe as a warning bell but never seen that implemented in DDO. if the devs read this, start making the traps DEADLY....you fail your save (I believe everything should have a saving through, although DDO doesn't) YOUR DEAD...easy enough.



this sounds like it is going to make disabling traps an even longer process, another reason for people to not wait for traps to be disabled.

The disabling of traps should be streamlined, search should only have to be active if you score is not 5 above the dc, in other words if the search dc is 30 and you search score is 36 the box should pop when you get the spot warning or when you set off the trap if you didn't spot it. There should be an enhancement line to speed up the disable action just like sneaking.

We shoudl be heading in the direction of parties wanting to stop to have rogues disable traps because it will make the quest easier and sometimes quicker, now there is just no point when people rarely die at higher levels from traps.

We should be able to set our own traps just like casters can. See NWN for an excellent trap setting mechanism

Ghost_Aeon
01-18-2008, 11:48 AM
In PnP D&D the Disable Device skill can be re-used on most traps if the rogue fails to disable it. However, failing at the Disable will typically result in that trap affecting the rogue!

The D&D penalty for failure is the trap itself and not a blown control box as we have in DDO. This is what I would like changed.

I suggest that :

DDO changes the Disable Device mechanic such that the rogue needs to stand in the active trap before clicking the Disable Device skill button. DDO control boxes would now only serve as warning (when found) that a trap is nearby. They would no longer disable the traps. Standing anywhere inside of the trap will be the new way of accessing the "control box" functionality.

When standing inside of the trap, the rogue would receive fraction-of-a-second-long buff that gives trap-immunity. This buff is just long enough for the very-attentive rogue to step back out of harms-way or to activate his Disable Device skill. This trap-immunity buff lasts for the duration of the Disable Device animation. It would not last long enough for a super-speedy rogue to run through the trap, unless that design is intentional.

If the rogue is successful at Disable Device then he has nothing to worry about, but if he fails he suffers the trap because his immunity-buff now vanishes.

The Disable device skill could be re-activated to try again, just as the skill works in real D&D. There is no blown control box feature. In DDO this re-use could give the trap-immunity buff (again), or perhaps no trap-immunity buff for some particularly nasty traps.

Turbine could reduce this unseen control-box-like area for extremely deadly traps.. Trial-and-error (and Reflex saves) would be required to find the hidden control box-like area to stand in. Perhaps the Disable Device button could grey-out until the rogue is standing in the correct place. If Turbine could randomize the location of these hidden control-box areas then a re-run of the same dungeon would have some uncertainty in it.

DDO traps using this new system could have their DCs increased such that disarming is no longer essentially a PASS/FAIL test. Because re-tries are possible the DCs could be quite high. The PnP D&D rogue can not typically auto-disable traps in a CR-appropriate dungeon.

DDO traps using this modified system will test more than a player's rogue skill build. His real-time reflexes and character Reflex (or other) save will frequently be put to the test.

The problem with this is rogues don't actually stand blindly in the middle of a trap to disarm it, they stand just outside the trap and effect it's reachable components (i.e. the control box). What they get is, the DM is supposed to roll the Disable Device check, so the rogue doesn't know wether it passed or failed until he actually steps into the trap (at which point some traps can no longer be disarmed). One thing I think Turbine needs to do is instead of hiding the Search roll, hide the disable roll, and instead of showing the disable roll, show the search roll. To add to the problem, while it's relatively cruel to have traps be impossible to disable after they're set off, I'd say it's fully alright to have them impossible to disable while active. Step in most traps, they go off. Step out of them and they reset after their current cycle. Certain missable traps (since they run out of fuel as opposed to shutting off) would be the traps in Waterworks part 1. Other traps that may never shut off should be optional chests (preferably with good loot or named items) such as the trap in Cabal of One.

Ghost_Aeon
01-18-2008, 11:54 AM
Traps should be made deadly or debilatating to stop people from zerg though them. Think about it....are you building a trap to capture something or kill it? Why else build one? Maybe as a warning bell but never seen that implemented in DDO. if the devs read this, start making the traps DEADLY....you fail your save (I believe everything should have a saving through, although DDO doesn't) YOUR DEAD...easy enough.

To comment, sometimes traps are made to capture instead of kill, and some are actually made to do both. An element that may help stop the zerging is to add a possible gate to trap the unfortunate sod in the trap. It may fall, it may not, but you won't know until the trap is triggered. Even in real life many traps probably weren't that deadly, I mean the trapper could walk through it, unless the trap was in a seldom-used area. The treasure vault is going to have a VERY nasty trap and possibly a falling gate to ensure any would-be thieves are killed, however the standard hallway trap is probably going to be less deadly (and almost never in a frequented hallway).

Mercules
01-18-2008, 12:49 PM
It doesn't even HAVE to be traps.

Disable Device is just that. It's used to somehow disable something so that it doesn't function. It could be of various natures. Say disable device shuts down a bunch of turbines opening up an alternate route. First you have to discover the box, but once you do you can then shut them down so people can go down that tube for an optional(chest or good sized XP bonus) or to shortcut past part of the quest.

BlueLightBandit
01-18-2008, 03:16 PM
Traps should be made deadly or debilatating to stop people from zerg though them.

Unfortunately, the devs have pretty much disagreed with this concept so far. So any conclusions based on this premise are simply meaningless because the people that change the game don't subscribe to this basic presumption.

Now if someone could come out and provide a reasoning for changing traps without using this concept, I'd be all for it. As it stands though, this goes entirely against the concept of not requiring any specific character classes in a quest, which has been a mentioned several times throughout the history of this game.

boldarblood
01-18-2008, 03:30 PM
Making traps more deadly will not slow the zerg.

Ghost_Aeon
01-19-2008, 09:01 AM
Unfortunately, the devs have pretty much disagreed with this concept so far. So any conclusions based on this premise are simply meaningless because the people that change the game don't subscribe to this basic presumption.

Now if someone could come out and provide a reasoning for changing traps without using this concept, I'd be all for it. As it stands though, this goes entirely against the concept of not requiring any specific character classes in a quest, which has been a mentioned several times throughout the history of this game.

Back when Cabal of One was new, there was that one trap in it that was pretty deadly and the box near impossible to find. The chest was also purely optional and wasn't shut down like the rest of them because there was no reason for you to ever go there.

Lair of summoning has a trap that, if you aren't prepaired for, locks you inwith fire and cold traps as it summons mephits to attack. Not so bad at higher levels, but if you're the recommended level 5, you're probably dying alone in the cage.

Both of these traps guard a chest that has absolutely no required items in them to beat the quest, they're optional areas you can skip over (and the second one is crappy enough that you might as well). Both are locked, too, so need a rogue to open them after, too. These are the areas traps should be the deadliest (for their level). These are the traps that should be the hardest to disable. These are the traps the zergers and loot mongers would say, "Let's get a rogue for this quest."

As was also said that I meant to state in one of my previous posts, Disable Device should disable more "devices." Perhaps in the next big quest/raid there can be a wagon at the beginning where, if you "disable" the wheels, the needed supplies can't be recoveed thus weakening the boss's overall power, or you can venture up an optional side passage to disable another wagon already recovered thus sending it off the cliff to damage the boss preemptively or smash it on the rocks below, openng up another well-stocked treasur chest. Perhaps the waring bells kobolds love to use can be disabled, leaving the sentry's high and dry when they try to call for help.

BlueLightBandit
01-19-2008, 10:13 AM
Back when Cabal of One was new, there was that one trap in it that was pretty deadly and the box near impossible to find. The chest was also purely optional and wasn't shut down like the rest of them because there was no reason for you to ever go there.

Lair of summoning has a trap that, if you aren't prepaired for, locks you inwith fire and cold traps as it summons mephits to attack. Not so bad at higher levels, but if you're the recommended level 5, you're probably dying alone in the cage.

Both of these traps guard a chest that has absolutely no required items in them to beat the quest, they're optional areas you can skip over (and the second one is crappy enough that you might as well). Both are locked, too, so need a rogue to open them after, too. These are the areas traps should be the deadliest (for their level). These are the traps that should be the hardest to disable. These are the traps the zergers and loot mongers would say, "Let's get a rogue for this quest."

Perfect examples of how the devs have instituted a reason to bring a rogue, but not as a necessity. Zerging groups simply skip over these things. If I understand you correctly, you want these traps to be necessities... which is why I said the devs disagree with this concept. Making an area more worthwhile in visiting increases the number of people who will visit it, and conversely, making an area more dangerous decreases the number of visitors. Making a place both dangerous and worthwhile to visit is simply the definition of "higher level content".

But again, you're not mentioning a slight change to the game. You're talking about bringing a change to the whole mechanics of being a rogue, which I simply disagree with the concept of, regardless of whether it makes it "better" or "more D&D-like". Besides, you're not just talking about changing a few stat points and skills, you're talking about going directly against the intentions of the devs when you mention things like making quests that require a rogue. I kinda like the concept of quests not requiring a specific class for completion, so I disagree with you there as well.


As was also said that I meant to state in one of my previous posts, Disable Device should disable more "devices." Perhaps in the next big quest/raid there can be a wagon at the beginning where, if you "disable" the wheels, the needed supplies can't be recoveed thus weakening the boss's overall power, or you can venture up an optional side passage to disable another wagon already recovered thus sending it off the cliff to damage the boss preemptively or smash it on the rocks below, openng up another well-stocked treasur chest. Perhaps the waring bells kobolds love to use can be disabled, leaving the sentry's high and dry when they try to call for help.

Now this idea I can't agree with more. Adding to the game... increasing the usefulness of a class. A wonderful idea.

Other ideas would be something like the puzzle in the reaver raid... instead of automatically going to the puzzle, how about giving a rogue a chance at disabling the device and the self destruct timer only starts if the rogue fails his disable check and blows the trap. If no rogue, then you hit the "big red button" marked "disable" on the wall and the counter starts, thus you'd need to complete the puzzle. So here you'd have a benefit to bringing a rogue, but not a necessity. Once we get the AI issue straightened out, and mobs are able to open doors on their own (instead of standing there swinging at walls) maybe rogues could go so far as to LOCK doors, or SET traps.

redoubt
01-19-2008, 12:57 PM
I agree that trap disabling should be streamlined, but I think it should be tied to skill vs. DC to be more realistic.
(Yes, I know, "realistic" is an oxymoron when talking about the DDO world. Bear with me.)

I think there should be a two-tiered system to making trap disabling faster:

1. (Automatic) Disabling should get a little faster whenever a character levels up as a Rogue. More Rogue levels = more Rogue experience = naturally better/faster ability to disarm.

2. (Situational) Disabling speed should be further modified on the basis of Disable skill vs. DC of the trap. A Disable 30 vs. a trap DC of 10 should be very quick to accomplish. Likewise, a Disable of 20 vs. a trap DC of 30 (where the disabler is hoping for a lucky die roll) should be longer as the character would be expected to be careful with such a difficult trap.

This would also give a visual warning to the party as to what they're facing. ("Keyhole's got a Disable of 40, and it's taking forever to disarm that trap he found! Must be something REALLY bad ahead of us!")

I like these ideas. As a MC with only 1 level of rogue, I still have the potential to unlock or disable what a pure rogue can, but the pure rogue gets the bonus of being faster. The speed vs difficulty is also cool.

Having said that, I think there should be some more inventive traps added to future quests, just to keep people on their toes.
For instance:

1. The "CHICKEN LITTLE" trap: This "trap" is a fake set up to look like the real thing. Often used to slow a party down or give them a false sense of security. ("A trap!" "Pish! The last two were duds!" BOOM!)

2. The "TWO-STAGE" trap: I had a DM in PnP who loved using these things. This is when you have two traps linked together, but only the first one can initially be found. The trick is that DISARMING the first trap ARMS the second one. (Trap A is active, trap B is not. Disarming (but NOT setting off) trap A arms trap B.) A second check is needed to find the second trap. (Or, you'll find out it's there when the barbarian sets it off...)

3. The "INTERCONNECTED" trap: A variation of the two-stage trap. The catch? Disarming one rearms the other. This can cause a big surprise for the party who thinks the way behind them is clear. (Traps A and B are active. Trap A is disarmed, trap B stays active. Trap B is later disarmed, trap A rearms.)

4. The "MARCO-POLO" trap: You notice how all the traps have the boxes nearby? This devious little setup involves two or more traps with transposed boxes. A search (or a high enough spot check) will reveal a box and a trap, but they aren't together. Disarming the box disarms A trap, just not the one in front of it.

5. The "WHERE'S WALDO?" trap: A simpler version of the Marco-Polo, this trap has a box somewhere a long ways away from it, usually farther into the dungeon. (A party that doesn't pay attention might think the box is a Chicken Little, since disarming it would have no visible effect.)

6. The "INVERTED" trap: Rogue does a search and finds a trap and a box. (Oh! I'll disarm it!) The catch? The trap wasn't armed in the first place! Attempting to disarm it actually activates it! (Of course, once the mistake is discovered, another check can be made to "properly" disarm the trap.)

7. The "DOUBLE-WHAMMY" TRAP: Depending on your defenses, this one can be really easy, or it can really hurt. This trap does two or more different kinds of damage (for example, a poison/acid sprayer), but only one kind at a time. This trap cannot actually be turned off. "Disarming" this trap simply changes the kind of damage it does. The upside? Most mobs don't have multiple immunities, so it's likely at least one damage type in this trap will hurt them. Those who use pulling tactics to eliminate mobs might find this little annoyance to be a blessing in disguise if they're inventive.

Anyhow, just some ideas. (Devs take note! :D )

I've seen some of these, but I like the ideas. Then again, I like the cabal trap. No idea if I can open it on elite, but its a bonus if you have a rogue who can do it OR you can still complete if you don't.

redoubt
01-19-2008, 01:03 PM
It doesn't even HAVE to be traps.

Disable Device is just that. It's used to somehow disable something so that it doesn't function. It could be of various natures. Say disable device shuts down a bunch of turbines opening up an alternate route. First you have to discover the box, but once you do you can then shut them down so people can go down that tube for an optional(chest or good sized XP bonus) or to shortcut past part of the quest.

I like this. Imagine being able to turn off the turbines that create the current in the crucible... (the underwater swim part.)

Again, it would not be required to complete the quest, but could make it much easier/faster.