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Ciaran
01-17-2008, 10:24 AM
In the last paragraph (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/845978p3.html) of the article on GameSpy they mention Tieflings as monsters in the new MOD. If true that is really sweet!

What are the chances Tieflings could be added as a playable race? I'm sure it'd be pretty simple to do - Give them an innate resistance to cold, electricty and fire (maybe 3 instead of 5) and rehash some of the barbarian elemental damage reductions ("Fiendish Resistance" enhancements, maybe?) and add the Darkness spell for flavor. I don't think the +2 to Bluff and Hide would be game-breaking either.

As for appearance, using the human models as a base, maybe a few new eye choices as well as a few new eye colors (orange, yellow, etc) and some facial features to choose from (horns, facial markings, etc) could be added? If they wanted to go crazy they could throw in a tail too. Doubt we would see that or cloven feet, as that probably requires more intensive coding changes.

I know people are really clamoring for Half-Orcs and Gnomes to be added and I agree that they should be - it just seems like making something into a player race that's already in the game (again, if Tieflings are already present i nMOD6) and wouldn't require (from what I see, anyway) a lot of development time would be simpler and give the playerbase more options, which can't be a bad thing.

Now, before anybody says "Oh, they're not a core race, so they should be added after all the core races have been addeed" I will note that, somewhere, in another thread (I think about Paladin love) people were quoting changes in 4th Edition that could be considered for helping out Paladins (smite evil being oncer per encounter, rather than limited to per day). Well, in 4th Edition I believe Tieflings are a core race, so why not?

For myself, I know that I'd retire my main fighter and roll up a new Tiefling fighter the day Tieflings are released.

Bekki
01-17-2008, 10:32 AM
In the last paragraph (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/845978p3.html) of the article on GameSpy they mention Tieflings as monsters in the new MOD. If true that is really sweet!

What are the chances Tieflings could be added as a playable race? I'm sure it'd be pretty simple to do - Give them an innate resistance to cold, electricty and fire (maybe 3 instead of 5) and rehash some of the barbarian elemental damage reductions ("Fiendish Resistance" enhancements, maybe?) and add the Darkness spell for flavor. I don't think the +2 to Bluff and Hide would be game-breaking either.

As for appearance, using the human models as a base, maybe a few new eye choices as well as a few new eye colors (orange, yellow, etc) and some facial features to choose from (horns, facial markings, etc) could be added? If they wanted to go crazy they could throw in a tail too. Doubt we would see that or cloven feet, as that probably requires more intensive coding changes.

I know people are really clamoring for Half-Orcs and Gnomes to be added and I agree that they should be - it just seems like making something into a player race that's already in the game (again, if Tieflings are already present i nMOD6) and wouldn't require (from what I see, anyway) a lot of development time would be simpler and give the playerbase more options, which can't be a bad thing.

Now, before anybody says "Oh, they're not a core race, so they should be added after all the core races have been addeed" I will note that, somewhere, in another thread (I think about Paladin love) people were quoting changes in 4th Edition that could be considered for helping out Paladins (smite evil being oncer per encounter, rather than limited to per day). Well, in 4th Edition I believe Tieflings are a core race, so why not?

For myself, I know that I'd retire my main fighter and roll up a new Tiefling fighter the day Tieflings are released.

True they would be Cool!

Maybe they could Add Aasimaars as well!

But what you may want to look at is that they would be similar to Drow.
No 32 point build.

because they have a + 1 or +2 I believe, level Rating.

But I still think they would be a cool addition.

Impaqt
01-17-2008, 10:35 AM
I'm much rather have the COre races and classes before they start working on other Races. The mob may be in the game, but Making a playabe character is a significant coding change.

Bekki
01-17-2008, 10:37 AM
I'm much rather have the COre races and classes before they start working on other Races. The mob may be in the game, but Making a playabe character is a significant coding change.

That is a very good point.

Will all of their respective resistances
that could require quite a bit of code change.

Ciaran
01-17-2008, 10:38 AM
True they would be Cool!

Maybe they could Add Aasimaars as well!

But what you may want to look at is that they would be similar to Drow.
No 32 point build.

because they have a + 1 or +2 I believe, level Rating.

But I still think they would be a cool addition.

Oh yeah, that was a given. +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CHA. They're a +1 ECL whereas Drow are +2 though, so maybe, just maybe they could be 32 point builds? Or heck, maybe 30 point builds (which would have to be added, maybe just unique for Tielfings/Aasimars).

Aasimars would be cool too - They'd more or less rule the roost for Clerics/Paladins.

Bekki
01-17-2008, 10:40 AM
Oh yeah, that was a given. +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CHA. They're a +1 ECL whereas Drow are +2 though, so maybe, just maybe they could be 32 point builds? Or heck, maybe 30 point builds (which would have to be added, maybe just unique for Tielfings/Aasimars).

Aasimars would be cool too - They'd more or less rule the roost for Clerics/Paladins.

I have an Aasimaar in P&P as a paladin.

He is just too cool!

I am grooming him to be a Divine Champion.

Ciaran
01-17-2008, 10:46 AM
I'm much rather have the COre races and classes before they start working on other Races. The mob may be in the game, but Making a playabe character is a significant coding change.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I can't speak to how difficult it would be with any kind of authority. All I can do is speculate that it doesn't seem like it'd be as complicated as say, Half-Orcs or Gnomes. Planetouched, especially Tieflings and Aasimar are humans with fiendish/celestial blood. Wouldn't it be a relatively simple matter of using the base human skin, adding things like elemental damage reduction and then adding new graphics for facial features? I'd think the latter would be the most significant change of code.

As I already stated in the OP, in 4th Edition Tieflings are a core race, and if we're going to borrow from 4th edition to justify suggested changes for Paladins, why not for adding a new race.

Do you mean to tell me that if a new playable race was added (which hasn't happened since Drow, and those had to have been relatively easy to do since they were already in game and were added during a monthly update, not a MOD) you'd pitch a fit because it wasn't 3.5 core? I have a hard time believing that. New content is new content and a new playable race would make a lot of people excited. Gnomes and Half-Orcs aren't even in game yet, I think it's more reasonable to add something that is in game, as they did with drow as they continue to work on races that haven't even appeared as monsters yet.

Keep in mind throughout all of this I'm biased towards Tieflings :)

GeneralDiomedes
01-17-2008, 10:48 AM
I'm much rather have the COre races and classes before they start working on other Races. The mob may be in the game, but Making a playabe character is a significant coding change.

Personally, I'd rather have a race that adds something unique to the player experience.

Warforged were an _excellent_ choice. Half-Orcs offer something unique (+2 STR) but Half-Elves and Gnomes do not appear to add anything to DDO based on their PHB description.

flynnsane
01-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Heck, let's put in Illumians (Races of Destiny), too! Power Sigil: Aeshkrau let's them use Strength as their casting ability.

I've got a Favored Soul 7/Ftr 1 Illumian in PnP who wears full plate, wields an Ogre's Blood Axe, and throws buff, holds, and heals. Good times.

Think of the possibilities for a battle cleric, Tensor's Wizzy, battle bard, etc....

Ciaran
01-17-2008, 10:53 AM
Personally, I'd rather have a race that adds something unique to the player experience.

Warforged were an _excellent_ choice. Half-Orcs offer something unique (+2 STR) but Half-Elves and Gnomes do not appear to add anything to DDO based on their PHB description.

I think what they add that is unique is appearances and options. Even if there isn't necessarily a compelling reason to make a half-elf (not saying there is or isn't) I think people would do so just because they could and/or because they like the race. Options and variety really go a long way in making a game enjoyable.

Vorn
01-17-2008, 11:18 AM
"It doesn't take a Kalashtar..."
:D

Bekki
01-17-2008, 11:33 AM
I think what they add that is unique is appearances and options. Even if there isn't necessarily a compelling reason to make a half-elf (not saying there is or isn't) I think people would do so just because they could and/or because they like the race. Options and variety really go a long way in making a game enjoyable.

I agree,

But,

Based on that your first choice, the addition
of Tieflings and Aasimaars would fit that bill better.

As would Gnomes since they are in essance, their own Race.

But sadly;
(and don't get me wrong I like half-elves, some of my favorite characters
have been half-elves! I have one I have re-rolled in a new Pen&paper game
Because I liked him so much, he was the epitome of a scoundrel)!

But that being said;
Most people would look at half elves as a "Lame duck".
Sadly, they are considered an alternate race that doesn't
really bring a whole lot to the table.

They are not as versitile as a Human. (Race restrictions)
They are not as resistant to spells as elves.
They get no inate powers (see Drow)
Not bonus weapon feats like Dwarves, Halflings, Elves, Drow...need I go on?

Not stat bonuses like every other race!

So Hmmm.... What does that leave?

Uhhh.... they look different.....?
Umm.... they aren't Dwarves.....?

Like I said, I like 1/2 Elves, but with so few character slots,
and so many options right now... If you are going to add another race.
let's make it really different.
like half Orcs, Tieflings and Aasimaars.

Illumians may fall in to the category of too code in tensive also.

just my 2Cp's.

Ciaran
01-17-2008, 11:39 AM
I agree,

But,

Based on that your first choice, the addition
of Tieflings and Aasimaars would fit that bill better.

As would Gnomes since they are in essance, their own Race.

But sadly;
(and don't get me wrong I like half-elves, some of my favorite characters
have been half-elves! I have one I have re-rolled in a new Pen&paper game
Because I liked him so much, he was the epitome of a scoundrel)!

But that being said;
Most people would look at half elves as a "Lame duck".
Sadly, they are considered an alternate race that doesn't
really bring a whole lot to the table.

They are not as versitile as a Human. (Race restrictions)
They are not as resistant to spells as elves.
They get no inate powers (see Drow)
Not bonus weapon feats like Dwarves, Halflings, Elves, Drow...need I go on?

Not stat bonuses like every other race!

So Hmmm.... What does that leave?

Uhhh.... they look different.....?
Umm.... they aren't Dwarves.....?

Like I said, I like 1/2 Elves, but with so few character slots,
and so many options right now... If you are going to add another race.
let's make it really different.
like half Orcs, Tieflings and Aasimaars.

Illumians may fall in to the category of too code in tensive also.

just my 2Cp's.

Well, MT has brought up some great suggestions for possible enhancement lines by pulling from the Eberron Lore for half elves that could make them quite interesting.

But yeah, as far as I'm concerned Tieflings and Aasimars > Half Elves. But as I said, I'm biased. :D

Bekki
01-17-2008, 12:04 PM
Well, MT has brought up some great suggestions for possible enhancement lines by pulling from the Eberron Lore for half elves that could make them quite interesting.

But yeah, as far as I'm concerned Tieflings and Aasimars > Half Elves. But as I said, I'm biased. :D

I would take either of them in a heartbeat!

But I would not be Heartbroken to see Half-Elves either!

That said.

But I truly believe we will see Half-Elves, and Orcs
Long before we see Tieflings and Aasimars.

Take it easy.

BlueLightBandit
01-17-2008, 03:53 PM
I'm actually to the point that I'd settle for 24 point build kobolds and hobgoblins as playable races, just to have something different.

Heck, I'd role play the heck out of a 22 point worg build if I could... but I can't, and that's frustrating. Anything new would be good right about now, to heck with better, I just want new.

MysticTheurge
01-17-2008, 06:39 PM
I think there's a significant danger adding LA +1 or higher races into a game that doesn't have LA.

The drow were a mistake, and continuing that would lead to an end result that's just silly. I mean no one would be playing the core (LA +0) races any more.

That said, if they can adjust races so they're more like LA +0, I'd love to see them added.

SteeleTrueheart
01-18-2008, 06:32 AM
Yes I agree that Drow were a problem and that LA races should be adjusted to LA+0 with their innate abilities moved into enhancement lines. And/or again they could be restricted to 28 point builds.

EinarMal
01-18-2008, 06:47 AM
I think there's a significant danger adding LA +1 or higher races into a game that doesn't have LA.

The drow were a mistake, and continuing that would lead to an end result that's just silly. I mean no one would be playing the core (LA +0) races any more.

That said, if they can adjust races so they're more like LA +0, I'd love to see them added.

I often hear you say this but Drow, really are not as overpowered as Dwarfs in the current game. They took a way a lot of the things that made them LA +2, so they didn't really implement Drow fully. Really the only benefit is they are easier to get than 32 point builds, once you unlock those the stat differences are pretty minor. The way the game is now the -2 to Con pentalty is huge, to the point where a warforged wizard is probably better than a 20 Int Drow. Drow enhancememnts are pretty weak, which I think was intentional to balance them out. If you consider enhancements and 32 point builds Drow really are not overpowered, and only the "best" choice for far fewer builds than Dwarfs.

The reason you see so many Drow is because they tied 32 pt. builds to favor, and Drow are easier to get. So new players, or those that do not favor grind build Drow so they won't be "forced" to re-roll to make a more optimal character later on. The big thing you are not considering is the enhancement system, which greatly affects how powerful a race is.

EinarMal
01-18-2008, 07:00 AM
I am all for whatever races/classes they can add to the game it drastically increases replay for me. I would love to see more classes/prestige classes more than races personally. A different race really doesn't change the available options as much as new class/prestige class would.

My vote for dev resources would be:
1. Level 20
2. New Base Classes (Monks, Druids, Duskblade,Warlock etc....)
3. Real Prestige Classes (MT, Arcane Trickster, etc...)
4. New Races

But that is just me....

Emili
01-18-2008, 07:27 AM
I often hear you say this but Drow, really are not as overpowered as Dwarfs in the current game. They took a way a lot of the things that made them LA +2, so they didn't really implement Drow fully. Really the only benefit is they are easier to get than 32 point builds, once you unlock those the stat differences are pretty minor. The way the game is now the -2 to Con pentalty is huge, to the point where a warforged wizard is probably better than a 20 Int Drow. Drow enhancememnts are pretty weak, which I think was intentional to balance them out. If you consider enhancements and 32 point builds Drow really are not overpowered, and only the "best" choice for far fewer builds than Dwarfs.

The reason you see so many Drow is because they tied 32 pt. builds to favor, and Drow are easier to get. So new players, or those that do not favor grind build Drow so they won't be "forced" to re-roll to make a more optimal character later on. The big thing you are not considering is the enhancement system, which greatly affects how powerful a race is.

Actually... drow are equal in point spread to a 32 point build, plus thier easier to get. What you see though in the power curve to dwarf is the dwarf have a killer set of enhancements to shore them up past most races in particular the melee classes (turbine went way overboard in the versitility of a dwarf in that area)... plus the fact that thier stat enhancement is con allows people to use that to equal things out among all classes since con is actually an important stat for every class....

Anyway should you count the total points of Drow +28 it is equal to anyrace +32 ie.) base points + build points. Thus drow have the same number of points as a 32 point build so any character where dex, int and/or cha have importance drow make an pretty good race. What they lack are a decent set of enhancements...in some areas, Turbine actually had cut them back last year. They still have a few ie.) the rapier and shortsword lines put them in line to make very good twf based builds and of course decent pallys, good rogues and extremely high DC arcane casters or bards.

EinarMal
01-18-2008, 07:32 AM
Actually... drow are equal in point spread to a 32 point build, plus thier easier to get. What you see though in the power curve to dwarf is the dwarf have a killer set of enhancements to shore them up past most races in particular the melee classes ... plus the fact that thier stat enhancement is con allows people to use that to equal things out among all classes since con is actually an important stat for every class....

Anyway should you count the total points of Drow +28 it is equal to anyrace +32 ie.) base points + build points. Thus drow have the same number of points as a 32 point build so any character where dex, int and/or cha have importance drow make an pretty good race. What they lack are a decent set of enhancements...in some areas, Turbine actually had cut them back last year. They still have a few ie.) the rapier and shortsword lines put them in line to make very good twf based builds and of course decent pallys, good rogues and extremely high DC arcane casters or bards.

Yeah I agree Drow = easy 32 pt. build, that is what I was trying to say. I also agree with enhancements with Dwarfs, you are essentially repeating what I said. They are not really more powerful than the base races as 32 pt. builds, and their enhancements outside of rapier/shortsword and perhaps dex are weak. So they are not overpowered.

EspyLacopa
01-18-2008, 07:42 AM
In the last paragraph (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/845978p3.html) of the article on GameSpy they mention Tieflings as monsters in the new MOD. If true that is really sweet!

What are the chances Tieflings could be added as a playable race? I'm sure it'd be pretty simple to do - Give them an innate resistance to cold, electricty and fire (maybe 3 instead of 5) and rehash some of the barbarian elemental damage reductions ("Fiendish Resistance" enhancements, maybe?) and add the Darkness spell for flavor. I don't think the +2 to Bluff and Hide would be game-breaking either.

As for appearance, using the human models as a base, maybe a few new eye choices as well as a few new eye colors (orange, yellow, etc) and some facial features to choose from (horns, facial markings, etc) could be added? If they wanted to go crazy they could throw in a tail too. Doubt we would see that or cloven feet, as that probably requires more intensive coding changes.

I know people are really clamoring for Half-Orcs and Gnomes to be added and I agree that they should be - it just seems like making something into a player race that's already in the game (again, if Tieflings are already present i nMOD6) and wouldn't require (from what I see, anyway) a lot of development time would be simpler and give the playerbase more options, which can't be a bad thing.

Now, before anybody says "Oh, they're not a core race, so they should be added after all the core races have been addeed" I will note that, somewhere, in another thread (I think about Paladin love) people were quoting changes in 4th Edition that could be considered for helping out Paladins (smite evil being oncer per encounter, rather than limited to per day). Well, in 4th Edition I believe Tieflings are a core race, so why not?

For myself, I know that I'd retire my main fighter and roll up a new Tiefling fighter the day Tieflings are released.
Adding a new race isn't that simple.

If it's in as a monster, then each instance of the monster is an entire model, weapon included. To be made a race, they must design art graphics for *every* weapon and *every* armor as well as casting animations for *every* spell. Then there's the tumbling animations, jumping animations. . .

MysticTheurge
01-18-2008, 08:26 AM
Drow enhancememnts are pretty weak, which I think was intentional to balance them out.

I don't think it was intentional, but that's kind of aside from the point.


If you consider enhancements and 32 point builds Drow really are not overpowered, and only the "best" choice for far fewer builds than Dwarfs.

I also think 32 point builds and most dwarven enhancements are overpowered too. So saying drow aren't overpowered in comparison to those is kind of silly.

If you recall, the only reason we got 32 point builds was because we got Drow first. It was a band-aid attempt to patch up the sheer imbalance that Drow created. And honestly, aside from Dwarves (who have the aforementioned overpowered enhancements) it's not even really sufficient to outweigh the benefits of being a drow. Plus it causes a bunch of other problems of its own (such as the fact that experienced players running their 32-point alts with a bunch of twinked gear are playing right next to actual newbs). Thus I'm going to put it in with the other "problems that Drow caused."


Actually... drow are equal in point spread to a 32 point build, plus thier easier to get.

Drow can be, depending on the build, as much as a 38 point build.

It really boils down to this. Unless you're very careful balancing the races, the entire game is going to gravitate towards one or two that really stand head and shoulders above the rest (as dwarves and drow do now), with a few expections. This isn't, honestly, good for the game because at that point why should you even have the other races. And so, I reiterate my concerns about adding LA +1 or higher races into DDO without careful consideration as to how it affects the balance of everything else.

honkuimushi
01-18-2008, 08:26 AM
I would include Tieflings in my "great for an expansion" pile. If we get it sooner, cool. But looking at recent dev responses, I wouldn't hold my breath for any races after half-elves and half-orcs. It looks like their plates are pretty full. As for the LA, I don't think it would matter for Teiflings. It's only +1, and it's generally considered a fairly weak +1. Yes, they have a net +2 to stats(+2 dex, +2 int, -2 chr) , darkvision, a +2 to bluff and Hide and an inate spell(darkness). No racial weapons or anything like that. That's very close to a +0. And most of that wouldn't apply to DDO. Where most of the +1 comes from is the native outsider subtype. That makes them immune to person spells, and grants them martial weapon proficiency. However they are vulnerable to spells that affect outsiders, like banishment. The was a +0 LA version published in the Players' Guide to Faerun. The only change was to change their subtype to humanoid and make them vulnerable to both spells that affect humanoids and those that affect outsiders. They also lose automatic proficiency with martial weapons. If they were implemented like that, there would be no problem including them as a basic race.

Aasimar are a whole different issue. They are considered a very strong +1 LA race. It starts with the +4 to stats(+2 wis, +2 chr), then you add darkvision, energy resistance of acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5, +2 to listen and spot, and an inate spell(daylight). Then you add the outsider traits. A suppose the limits of having Paladin as a favored class is supposed to balance them out, but that doesn't apply in DDO.

I kind of miss the old Planescape charts for rolling up Tieflings. I feel like making another Tiefling Bleaker.

BlueLightBandit
01-18-2008, 08:44 AM
Adding a new race isn't that simple.

If it's in as a monster, then each instance of the monster is an entire model, weapon included. To be made a race, they must design art graphics for *every* weapon and *every* armor as well as casting animations for *every* spell. Then there's the tumbling animations, jumping animations. . .

Um... I couldn't disagree more.

If they have the "base skin" for the monster (which includes basically the body, the skin/hair colors/designs, and an equation for resizing weapons) then really they have everything they need to introduce the character class. Weapons already exist, they just need to implement the sizing scale (like how a greatsword on a halfling is smaller than a greatsword on a warforged, it's not a different weapon animation, it's just scaled down to be smaller), and since Tieflings are human sized that mathematical computation has already been done. The spells are already in game, as they wouldn't be adding a new CLASS, simply a new RACE that would work with the existing classes and skills/abilities/enhancements that are already in the game.

Since they're implementing them as mobs in the game, one could assume that the base skin has already been created, and the rest is a piece of cake. So personally, I think it would be very easy to add Tieflings as a character class.

Whether Turbine actually does this... well that's a whole different discussion.

MysticTheurge
01-18-2008, 08:56 AM
Um... I couldn't disagree more.

If they have the "base skin" for the monster (which includes basically the body, the skin/hair colors/designs, and an equation for resizing weapons) then really they have everything they need to introduce the character class.

This is incorrect, in general. We don't, for example, have everything we'd need to have kobold PCs because kobolds don't have the animations required to act as PCs.


since Tieflings are human sized that mathematical computation has already been done.

But with specific regard to Tiefling (and Aasimar, and Genasi, etc.) this is probably true.

Of course, like I said last time we had this discussion, while they could use the human models for Planetouched, I personally would find that a bit disappointing. I want Tieflings to be a bit smaller and more slender than humans and Aasimar to be a bit bigger. But of course, that adds a bunch of work that needs to be done for them, so I guess I could accept Planetouched that use the human models.

Provided they can be scaled back to LA +0.

EinarMal
01-18-2008, 08:57 AM
It really boils down to this. Unless you're very careful balancing the races, the entire game is going to gravitate towards one or two that really stand head and shoulders above the rest (as dwarves and drow do now), with a few expections. This isn't, honestly, good for the game because at that point why should you even have the other races. And so, I reiterate my concerns about adding LA +1 or higher races into DDO without careful consideration as to how it affects the balance of everything else.

Well I reiterate that I disagree, and that if you really want to balance the races that can easily be accomplished by adjusting the racial enhancements. Turbine has just not done so currently with Dwarfs but it can be done easily enough.

Combine that with removing some of the innate abilities, like Drow SR, you can easily add +1 races with no imbalance.

MysticTheurge
01-18-2008, 09:02 AM
...and that if you really want to balance the races that can easily be accomplished by adjusting the racial enhancements.

I think we actually agree, we're just voicing it differently.

I'd consider the above part of "being careful when adding new races" and "toning them down to be closer to LA +0."

EinarMal
01-18-2008, 09:05 AM
I think we actually agree, we're just voicing it differently.

I'd consider the above part of "being careful when adding new races" and "toning them down to be closer to LA +0."

Yeah sure you have to be careful and balance them, and honestly there isn't a good track record for that currently. I have no idea why Dwarfs get so many good enhancements compared to say Elf or Halfling.

I would say though to me adding races is less valuable than adding new classes/prestige classes. You are still stuck leveling the same characters that now just look slightly different. Races to me are only marginally exciting compared to adding something like a Warmage, Warlock, or Eldritch Knight prestige class (but that is just what I would like).

MysticTheurge
01-18-2008, 09:09 AM
Yeah sure you have to be careful and balance them, and honestly there isn't a good track record for that currently.

Yeah, and I think that's what worries me the most when the discussion starts turning towards races which are more powerful to start with.

Ciaran
01-18-2008, 09:58 AM
Interesting ideas being tossed out here.

I'm not necessarily opposed to Tieflings being made around a LA +0 class, but I don't think it's necessary. I have to disagree that if they were implemented as a LA +1 race that "everybody would gravitate to that race". I don't have hard data to speak authoritatively about what classes people are playing, and certainly drow are a popular choice for certain classes, but here's what I observed in my close to two years playing.

- Drow were introduced
- Drow became popular for the +4 net stat gain they offered AND (and this is no small consideration) because they were something new to the game. One can merely take a perfunctory look at D&D fantasy and see that drow are wildly popular and it's not just because of the benefits they offer, either.
- As 32 point builds were introduced, it leveled the playing field in a lot of ways.

Back when drow were introduced, the forum was absolutely filled with people doom saying that "people won't play any other class". This didn't happen. Sure, for a time there was a rather large influx of drow characters in the game, but this is to be expected...after all they were something new. People continued playing the other races too. Dwarves are probably a little overpowered (stacking Armor Mastery and Dwarven Tactics, Axe Damage and Axe Attack, etc, etc) and they remained a popular choice for fighters (and, surprisingly, clerics). Still, people continued to play humans, halflings, warforged and elves; they didn't become obsolete or a minority at all in the way people were claiming would happen. This especially was true when 32 point builds were introduced. This is what I've experienced and observed.

Tieflings are a LA +1 class and receive the following:
+2 Int
+2 Dex
-2 Cha
Darkvision - Doesn't exist in game, so it can be dropped from the list.
Darkness Spell 1/day - Hardly overpowering and highly annoying spell in DDO. I doubt people would even use it, really. Would exist for flavor, nothing more.
5 Cold Resist
5 Fire Resist
5 Electrical Resist
+2 Racial Bonus to Bluff and Hide - Mariginally useful in DDO at present and very low-powered.
Native Outsider subtype - This is an important note because as Native Outsiders, they can't be banished to their originating plane as somebody else said; they are in fact of the material plane with strong ties to it - hence they need to sleep, rest, eat, drink and be raised/resurrected. They are plane TOUCHED not of another plane per se. Not sure if outsider bane would work or not. Still, this would really only apply to PvP, so it’s irrelevant.

So we’re left with a net +2 stat increase, +2 to two marginally usefull skills and minor energy resistances. Heck, cut those back to 3’s and the race is good to go as is. That hardly makes them overpowered, MT and I can’t see what basis you have for claiming that people would gravitate towards this race over the others. A 32 point build has an extra +2 edge in stats over a Tiefling, and even though you feel 32 point builds are “overpowered” they aren’t going away and they actually level the playing field so that exactly what you fear happening is much less likely to happen.

As for implementing Tieflings as a race and the difficulty (not) of doing so, Drow were added to the game rather quickly – no idea how long they’d been working on them prior to them being released, but they were already in game and they had elves to work on as a base type – no extra coding for movements or interaction with the game. Since Planetouched are simply humans that have been touched by another plane somewhere in their ancestry (and it’s in the distant past, not recent generations, else they’d be half-fiends or half-celestials) I see no reason why they wouldn’t use humans as the base type – it just makes sense to do so, less coding for movements and how the race interacts with the game world. “Tieflings are indistinguishable from humans” – why would they need to be shorter and thinner, MT? All the races in the game are the same height and same weight, respectively; no one human male is taller or thinner than another human male, not female elf is shorter or thicker than another female elf.

About the only real changes they’d need to add are facial features, as I’ve said. Make them look somewhat catlike (being descended from Rakshasa) or give them different sets of horns, eye markings (something akin to the face models for Tieflings in NWN2), etc. Enhancement lines would have to be added as well. These two things I agree would be more intensive changes, but about the only intensive changes in terms of “adding” anything new to the game that isn’t already in it in some shape or form. That’s my take on it, anyway.

I don’t think you can say they’d be more difficult to add to the game then say, Half-Orcs or Gnomes. They’re working on Half-Orcs , and it’s taking a lot of time, which is understandable; they have to start from the ground up since Half-Orcs aren’t in game yet at all. They are something that should come with another MOD, certainly, given the amount of work that has to go into making them. Tieflings, to me, seem to be something that can be added during a Monthly Update rather than a MOD.

Ciaran
01-18-2008, 10:07 AM
This is incorrect, in general. We don't, for example, have everything we'd need to have kobold PCs because kobolds don't have the animations required to act as PCs.

Apples and Oranges, my friend. There's no existing class with which to base kobold pc interactions off of - not even halflings. Kobolds have a distinctly monstrous look to them whereas Tieflings/Aasmiars, not so much.

Being that we already have humans to base the Tiefling class off of, we already have the animations required to act as PC's.


I would say though to me adding races is less valuable than adding new classes/prestige classes. You are still stuck leveling the same characters that now just look slightly different. Races to me are only marginally exciting compared to adding something like a Warmage, Warlock, or Eldritch Knight prestige class (but that is just what I would like).

I think it would be kind of haphazard to implement new, non-core classes (the PrC's) as other classes when they already seem to be doing that as enhancements. Besides, these classes wouldn't be available from the start to begin with. Give us Monks and Druids, give us Half-Orcs, Half-Elves and Tieflings and this game will explode with the different options it offers.

You're right though - implementing new classes > implementing new races. However, new classes, according to the devs is trickier to do, and I bring up Tieflings because to my mind, of all the races they could add, they seem to be easiest to add in terms of development time and far from being overpowering - in DDO at least. PnP is another story and LA +1 makes sense there.

I'd love to see Warlocks, Hexblades, Duskblades, etc - but I haven't started thinking about how those would fit into the game and how their class features would be implemented. Suffice to say, it'd be tricky as H - E double hockey sticks.

EspyLacopa
01-18-2008, 11:20 AM
Darkness Spell 1/day - Hardly overpowering and highly annoying spell in DDO. I doubt people would even use it, really. Would exist for flavor, nothing more.

Errr, We don't *have* the spell Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm). What we have is Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm).

Note the differences between them.

EinarMal
01-18-2008, 11:24 AM
I'd love to see Warlocks, Hexblades, Duskblades, etc - but I haven't started thinking about how those would fit into the game and how their class features would be implemented. Suffice to say, it'd be tricky as H - E double hockey sticks.

It really just depends many of them have almost all mechanics already in the game. There is a thread somewhere with lots of relatively easy classes to implement. Druids are far harder than many of them. Who really cares if they are core or not? We just need some new classes to play with, and they should put the ones that are the easiest to program in (fastest) first. If we wait for Druids well....my bet is you will never see them.

Ciaran
01-18-2008, 11:34 AM
Errr, We don't *have* the spell Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm). What we have is Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm).

Note the differences between them.

My bad. Either way, the point still stands that those spells are highly annoying and very rarely used by PC's (in my experience). They're also not particularly overpowering. Lowlight/Darkvision isn't implemented in game so that aspect of the different spells doesn't matter, and we don't have spells that create wind and neither do we have wind in game, so that part also doesn't matter. The biggest difference seems to be the ability to get rid of Obscuring Mist by casting a fire spell in the vicinity.

I don't think they should add the spell just for the class. It'd wind up being for flavor and nothing more, I think.


It really just depends many of them have almost all mechanics already in the game. There is a thread somewhere with lots of relatively easy classes to implement. Druids are far harder than many of them. Who really cares if they are core or not?

Yeah, I'm sure there are several other classes, core or not, that would be easier than others to implement. I'd love to see this.


We just need some new classes to play with, and they should put the ones that are the easiest to program in (fastest) first.

I think the same applies for certain races too. Certainly people want Half-Orcs because of their bonus to Strength. They're also harder to program. Okay, so you can't give us Half-Orcs anytime relatively soon, same with Monks and that goes double for Druids. Why not give us extra races/classes that are easier to program in the meantime? I'd love to know how much effort went into adding Drow as a playable race. I think it's beyond time we got some kind of new playable race, and way beyond time we got a new playable class.


If we wait for Druids well....my bet is you will never see them.

No offense, but I hope you're wrong. Still, this is very true because of coding Wild Shape and the feat that allows you to cast spells in animal form. It might cheapen the ability, but what if there was no physical change but the druid received the appropriate stat, HP and skills benefit?

MysticTheurge
01-18-2008, 11:47 AM
My bad. Either way, the point still stands that those spells are highly annoying and very rarely used by PC's (in my experience).

You're a little behind the times. "Friendly" cloud spells no longer obscure your vision and so they make great ways to get concealment early in the game.

Ciaran
01-18-2008, 11:53 AM
You're a little behind the times. "Friendly" cloud spells no longer obscure your vision and so they make great ways to get concealment early in the game.

Ah, you're right about that - I had forgotten that they changed that. I guess I'm just used to thinking "Obscuring Mist" = Annoying and I rarely see it used. I still don't see it used very often and by the time an arcane caster is capable of casting Solid Fog it tends to become obsolete.

The point still stands though that it's not quite overpowering. If they implement Darkness, I guess they'd have to do the same thing. It should obscure vision, even if it's friendly, but I understand why it doesn't.

EspyLacopa
01-18-2008, 12:44 PM
Ah, you're right about that - I had forgotten that they changed that. I guess I'm just used to thinking "Obscuring Mist" = Annoying and I rarely see it used. I still don't see it used very often and by the time an arcane caster is capable of casting Solid Fog it tends to become obsolete.

The point still stands though that it's not quite overpowering. If they implement Darkness, I guess they'd have to do the same thing. It should obscure vision, even if it's friendly, but I understand why it doesn't.
Fireball is supposed to roast team-mates as well as the enemies too.

Mad_Bombardier
01-18-2008, 12:45 PM
You're a little behind the times. "Friendly" cloud spells no longer obscure your vision and so they make great ways to get concealment early in the game.Sort of. If you stack multiple spells (same or different), they overlap; obscuring vision. For example, 2 Solid Fogs in the same spot make an opaque grey sphere (well, it gets small gaps as the cloud effect swirls, but it's pretty much opaque).

Ciaran
01-18-2008, 02:23 PM
Fireball is supposed to roast team-mates as well as the enemies too.

Uh...right. But it doesn't in DDO and it make sense why it doesn't.

Not sure what your point is, sorry.

Swordalot
01-18-2008, 02:31 PM
I'm in full support of the addition of Tieflings and Aasimar, so long as they are either 28 point buy only (Aasimar) or 30-point (Tiefling, if not only 28). I'd love to be able to make a Tiefling rogue, though I'm sure everyone else would, too. And, of course, Aasimar make excellent paladins and clerics.

But, as [somebody] already said, I think it'd be sweet if, through some sweet chance of luck and money influx, they could give us kobolds, hobgoblins (or regular goblins) and, why not, a worg. How fun would it be to play a Worg with fighter levels? Weapon specialization: Natural, anyone? And talk about awesome trips!

EspyLacopa
01-18-2008, 02:41 PM
Uh...right. But it doesn't in DDO and it make sense why it doesn't.

Not sure what your point is, sorry.

Friendly Fire doesn't exist in DDO, it doesn't make sense to have some spells to have it and others to not have it. It's best to be consistent. The Dev's decided to not have Friendly Fire.

BlueLightBandit
01-18-2008, 03:18 PM
Friendly Fire doesn't exist in DDO, it doesn't make sense to have some spells to have it and others to not have it. It's best to be consistent. The Dev's decided to not have Friendly Fire.

Lots of things about this game have been inconsistent... how does that apply to the discussion of implementing Tieflings into the game?

Unless you're intentionally introducing the concept of a rogue dev that goes against the grain to actually implement something in the game that would benefit the customer base... then I'd agree with you.

EspyLacopa
01-18-2008, 04:03 PM
Lots of things about this game have been inconsistent... how does that apply to the discussion of implementing Tieflings into the game?

Unless you're intentionally introducing the concept of a rogue dev that goes against the grain to actually implement something in the game that would benefit the customer base... then I'd agree with you.

We were talking about the idea that stuff like Obscuring Mist should affect friendlies, and I pointed out that the game doesn't have Friendly Fire. . .

Ciaran
01-18-2008, 04:07 PM
We were talking about the idea that stuff like Obscuring Mist should affect friendlies, and I pointed out that the game doesn't have Friendly Fire. . .

Actually I think you misunderstood what I meant, or I might not have articulated it well. What I mean is that, according to PnP it should affect friendlies, but I understand why, in DDO, it doesn't and it shouldn't.

Sorry if I sounded inconsistent.

EspyLacopa
01-18-2008, 04:28 PM
Actually I think you misunderstood what I meant, or I might not have articulated it well. What I mean is that, according to PnP it should affect friendlies, but I understand why, in DDO, it doesn't and it shouldn't.

Sorry if I sounded inconsistent.

Fair enough.

salmag
01-18-2008, 08:19 PM
I think Tieflings would be an excellent player race, as would Aasimar, Kalashtar, and I would even like to see Yuan-ti. Implement them AFTER gnomes.:D

Cold_Stele
01-19-2008, 05:33 AM
Dunno if this has been mentioned - in 4.0 Tieflings, Dragonborn, Eladrin (High Elves) and Drow are new core CR0 classes (this is according to my sneak preview 'Races and Classes' btw).

It looks like Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and Gnomes have been dropped altogether.

I dare say that for Turbine it makes absolutely no sense putting any further time into developing Half-Elves and Half-Orcs for DDO, especially if there's a long term plan of moving to 4.0...

MysticTheurge
01-19-2008, 07:39 AM
Dunno if this has been mentioned - in 4.0 Tieflings, Dragonborn, Eladrin (High Elves) and Drow are new core CR0 classes (this is according to my sneak preview 'Races and Classes' btw).

Drow are?

I didn't get that impression.

honkuimushi
01-19-2008, 08:08 AM
Drow are?

I didn't get that impression.

In FR.

MysticTheurge
01-19-2008, 08:13 AM
In FR.

Oh. Right.

Well... we're not in FR. ;)

Kire
01-19-2008, 11:39 AM
I was going to read all of this but eh,

There is atleast one Tiefling in the new mod. He's one of the end guys in Eladrin's Stronghold. He is very easy to kill. His friends, However, are not quite as easy. Eladrin's Stronghold is the only quest ive beated on risia, though i almost beat the Underwater quest but lost it due to a badly place firewall, and would of beat the temple quest but my whole party was booted from risia shortly before completion. Eladrin's Stronghold is probably the shortest, yet hardest out of all of these being ml 16. It also throws in a new race not seen in the vale.

~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-19-2008, 11:56 AM
It also throws in a new race not seen in the vale.

It actually has two new monsters. Three if you count the tiefling.

Kire
01-19-2008, 12:03 PM
It actually has two new monsters. Three if you count the tiefling.

Three? I would agree with the Tiefling and the Eladrin but whats the third?

~Kire

Ciaran
01-19-2008, 12:07 PM
Dunno if this has been mentioned - in 4.0 Tieflings, Dragonborn, Eladrin (High Elves) and Drow are new core CR0 classes (this is according to my sneak preview 'Races and Classes' btw).

It looks like Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and Gnomes have been dropped altogether.

I dare say that for Turbine it makes absolutely no sense putting any further time into developing Half-Elves and Half-Orcs for DDO, especially if there's a long term plan of moving to 4.0...

I couldn't disagree more. They've already started working on them, so I would hope they finish them. I'm not gung-ho on them myself, but plenty of players are. More options = better product. That's a bit of an oversimplification, of course, but I think the point still stands.

4.0 isn't even fully released, and this is a 3.5 game. I don't see them reworking the entire game system to introduce paths ala Diablo II (which is what I understand 4.0 is going to be similar to), so I don't think it would be justified to stop working on half-elves, half-orcs and maybe even gnomes. Maybe for DDO2? *shrugs*

Also, there's more than one 4.0 PHB, as I understand it, so the other races might be in those.

Besides, Tieflings in 4.0 are distinctly more monstrous looking - something I'm not all that thrilled about. If I wanted to play The Lord of Darkness from Legend, I'd play half-fiends. :mad:

MysticTheurge
01-19-2008, 12:12 PM
Three? I would agree with the Tiefling and the Eladrin but whats the third?

There's two kinds of Eladrin in there.

Drider
01-19-2008, 02:30 PM
I'm much rather have the COre races and classes before they start working on other Races. The mob may be in the game, but Making a playabe character is a significant coding change.

At this stage of the game, I'd rather have anything they can give us. If they could give us Tieflings because thy would take less time then Gnomes.. then I'll take it for sure.

Kire
01-19-2008, 02:34 PM
There's two kinds of Eladrin in there.

Oh well now your just being picky =P

~Kire

Cold_Stele
01-19-2008, 07:01 PM
I couldn't disagree more. They've already started working on them, so I would hope they finish them.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm only guessing what Turbine will do.

Put it this way though - if I was the boss, and I heard a current project I was sinking money into was going to be dropped completely by the people who owned the intellectual property, I wouldn't spend one single cent anymore on it - I'd close it down so fast you couldn't even blink.

I wonder to what extent DDO is tied in with WotC? Are Turbine even allowed to continue indefinitely with their 3.5 licence when 4.0 comes along? Or are they obliged to upgrade to the new product? Again - put it this way - if I was the boss of WotC, I'd contractually oblige anyone who bought my product to keep on paying for any upgrades to it - they were working on the prototypes for 4.0 when DDO was in production...

Ciaran
01-20-2008, 09:44 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm only guessing what Turbine will do.

Put it this way though - if I was the boss, and I heard a current project I was sinking money into was going to be dropped completely by the people who owned the intellectual property, I wouldn't spend one single cent anymore on it - I'd close it down so fast you couldn't even blink.

I wonder to what extent DDO is tied in with WotC? Are Turbine even allowed to continue indefinitely with their 3.5 licence when 4.0 comes along? Or are they obliged to upgrade to the new product? Again - put it this way - if I was the boss of WotC, I'd contractually oblige anyone who bought my product to keep on paying for any upgrades to it - they were working on the prototypes for 4.0 when DDO was in production...

Here's the thing though - I thought I remembered reading something from the devs regarding 4th Edition that they were interested to see what 4th Edition was going to bring, but overall I got the impression that it was a far distant concern to them as far as implementing it into DDO went. As I understand it they've made no definitive plans to implement 4th Edition. So as far as any project being dropped completely, I don't see it happening at all - especially not with Kate Paiz telling us that Half-Orcs and Monks are still being worked on.

So I could be wrong, but my overall impression is 4th Edition, as yet, has little to no bearing on what DDO will or will not develop.

MysticTheurge
01-20-2008, 10:49 AM
Put it this way though - if I was the boss, and I heard a current project I was sinking money into was going to be dropped completely by the people who owned the intellectual property, I wouldn't spend one single cent anymore on it - I'd close it down so fast you couldn't even blink.

Ah, well there's your problem. These races aren't being "dropped completely" from D&D 4.0, they're just not going to be in the first PHB.

Cold_Stele
01-20-2008, 11:09 AM
Ah, my bad, just knew they weren't gonna be in the PHB - any idea when/where they're going to release them?

Also, I've not read anything about Eberron and 4.0 - will Tieflings and Dragonborn be playable races in 4.0? How is their sudden appearance going to be explained?

MysticTheurge
01-20-2008, 11:26 AM
Ah, my bad, just knew they weren't gonna be in the PHB - any idea when/where they're going to release them?

They haven't really given details that I know of, but it's been suggested that Gnomes will be in PHBII I think (scheduled for about a year after PHBI, again, I think). I wouldn't be surprised to see Half-orcs and Half-elves in there too.


Also, I've not read anything about Eberron and 4.0 - will Tieflings and Dragonborn be playable races in 4.0? How is their sudden appearance going to be explained?

Honestly, I haven't either. I haven't been reading the WotC Eberron forums a lot lately, but I'm sure there's a lot of discussion on the topic going on over there.

To my knowledge, they haven't even really announced what Eberron books will be coming out after the switch to 4E. FR is getting a new campaign guide (FRCS) but I have yet to hear word on whether there will be a new ECS.