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Endrik
02-27-2008, 10:58 AM
Given the plethora of theories we've put forth here, I see no reason not to try and help sort this out with a few spare brain cycles. The input given by everyone here crystallized when jperz made his summation post and resulted in the following conclusion.

My intent is as follows:
Create an imbued shard (elemental fire... arbitrary, to be honest)
Create two additional ingredients, Essence of Water and Gem of Opposition (Opposition = opposite, duh.)
Attempt to combine the already imbued shard, a "blank shard" with the two additional ingredients and a power cell (five total according to my math).

Odds are I won't have enough ingredients until this weekend... Here's hoping...

Big-Dex
02-27-2008, 11:30 AM
Heh, weird. I actually meant to say the Altar of Devestation. The theory being that maybe you can combine to two smaller shards into one bigger shard. If that is possible it seems likely that you'd have to do it at the altar for the bigger shard.

I did try to put two imbued shards of power into the Altar of Subjugation (Teir 2). It rejected them. So.. my hunch is that shards will only work on the altar they are recommended for, but this has not been confirmed on the Altar of Devestation. There is the slight possibility that the final altar acts a bit differently.

Wulf_Ratbane
02-27-2008, 11:30 AM
Given the dearth of theories we've put forth here, I've culled my own from the input given by everyone here, but it crystallized when jperz made his summation post.

Huh. That's twice today on these forums I've seen dearth misused.

Trust me, there's no dearth of theories in this thread. Myriad theories, a dearth of answers.

Endrik
02-27-2008, 11:40 AM
Trust me, there's no dearth of theories in this thread. Myriad theories, a dearth of answers.

Apologies, Wulf. I have allowed insufficient time for the coffee to settle in. In fact, I'm shocked that I spelled everything correctly. I don't typically post without carefully editing my material and it appears that I've lapsed in that...:eek:

MysticTheurge
02-27-2008, 12:15 PM
Huh. That's twice today on these forums I've seen dearth misused.

Trust me, there's no dearth of theories in this thread. Myriad theories, a dearth of answers.

Glut is always my favorite opposite for dearth.

So I'd say there is a glut of theories. :D

Wulf_Ratbane
02-27-2008, 12:39 PM
Apologies, Wulf.

I wasn't busting your balls but I had, literally, read the exact same thing only minutes before. It was odd.


Glut is always my favorite opposite for dearth.

So I'd say there is a glut of theories. :D

Oh, come on. It's plethora.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6E682C7Jj4

Big-Dex
02-27-2008, 01:30 PM
After some seriously intense interogation and much "Chocalate Cake" ... an informant ... who will remain unnamed to preserve his integrity and his ridiculous addiction to the sweet stuff ... has answered the following questions in the following ways.

Mind you, despite my best interogation methods, he remains infuratingly cryptic in his answers... too much time with Kobolds I think...


Q: Can a imbued shard of power be imbued further on the same altar by adding another set ingredients (gem/foci/essence) to it?
A: Cryptic carefully worded answer: gem/foci/essence? No. ;)
Q: Do all the altars act in the same way regarding ingredients or does teir 3 (Devestation) have special abilities (combining shards)?
A: All altars do not behave the same way. Maybe, to the last.
Q: Do soul gems have any special use yet outside of the adamantine ritual? Can weaker essences be combined create stronger essences? I have tried applying them to all but the altar of devestation with no luck.
A: Nothing yet. M7 and M8 will have more. I expect every soul gem to be of use by M8.
Q: (it is an intriguing grind I might add.)
A: I was hoping some people would find it intriguing. :)
Q: Perhaps you can tell us if we have finally discovered all that we need to know about the altars and recipes, we just have to add the correct Teir 3 (devestation) combo to score the special abilities that have been alluded to ... hence, that last discovery that we have been told that we have not made yet.
A: You're getting close.Okay... so there you have some more juicy tidbits. I will post separately with my suspicions momentarily. WE ARE GETTING CLOSE FOLKS! Keep it up!

~ Dex

PS - LET THE SPECULATING BEGIN! :eek: :D

Big-Dex
02-27-2008, 01:42 PM
I suspect, based on my informant's information, that TEIR 3 is the key to our success!

My hope is that some of you with TEIR 3 (large) ingredients will bow to the needs of all and work together to test a few things on the altar of devestation before upgrading your item/weapon. Yes it will mean a few more runs, a few more ingredients, but your patience and effort will garner you the appreciation of your piers and likely, a better item/weapon.

My suggestions for the Altar of Devestation in this order....

Try adding large core ingredients to an already imbued shard (one at a time and several at a time).
Try adding large manufactured ingredients to an already imbued shard (one at a time and several at a time).
Try combining imbued shards into an empty shard.

Perhaps someone might come up with a better list and order to try. If you are on ARGO and have large ingredients to use in this experiment, I will gladly help by donating what I get as soon as I gather some. PM me.

~ Dex

Boulderun
02-27-2008, 01:46 PM
You know, it might be as simple as combining two Superior Foci on the altar. High Energy Cell (optional?) + Superior Focus of Positive Energy + Superior Focus of Air = Superior Focus of Lightning?

Has anyone tried that? Again, we're concerned with the Altar of Devastation - not working on the other two is irrelevant.

Riggs
02-27-2008, 02:00 PM
But why would getting "Air in your lightning" be an upgrade when getting "Positive energy in your lightning" was confirmed by a dev as not being an upgrade?

We know that the upgrade path is more complex -- we know that we are missing something regarding the upgrade...following the standard path does nothing to allow it to be either complex or resolve the missing knowledge.

Granted anything someone tries that is new gives us more information...but we need to "think outside the box" a bit here regarding upgrading the special effects.

Couple reasons. First, I have an ac build, and wanted a good damaging weapon with an ac bonus. So even if there is no tier 3 effect I will have a shock, good burst, +4 ac weapon. Not shabby.

I have seen lots of mixes with pos/neg, but I havent seen a single Element a + b + element a. Everything seems to be a + a + b, or a + b + b, or mixing pos/neg - which doesnt make it a quasi element most likely.

People are looking for new options, and maybe the extra shard thing or extra foci will work. It seems pretty ingredient intensive, but if it works great. But it still seems no one has tried the first option of fire/earth/fire, or earth/fire/earth for example. It would seem that making sure that is NOT the upgrade path before trying more difficult paths would help narrow down the options a bit...

Riggs
02-27-2008, 02:09 PM
He said it in this post --

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1570260&postcount=899

I posited the same question adding air to lighting -- "Pos / air would make lighting, then upgrade it with more air" and he responded -- "You got air in my lightning!"

I then mused about making "big air" (i.e. air/air) and adding positive into that to attain a "bigger lightning" and he responded -- "You got positive energy in my (lots of) air!"

These two statements are why I feel very strongly about my hypothesis regarding the tier 3 upgrade.

Both statements are witty replies that dont specify a valid result either way. And if it is borrowing the phrase from the commercial "You got chocolate in my peanut butter!" then it in fact implies those are VALID upgrade paths.

Ruling out upgrade paths based on a flippant response is not valid until it is proven by an actual example of a successful/failed upgrade path. Both of those examples are of the a + b + b, or a + a + b - which seem to have been proven invalid, however both of those questions are not of the a + b + a path, which so far seem to still be a possibility until proven otherwise.

Boulderun
02-27-2008, 02:13 PM
Positive + Water + Positive is listed as a failure on the wiki. Assuming that is accurate, I think we can move on.

Riggs
02-27-2008, 02:35 PM
I have spent a lot of time experimenting with both types of crafting and I think the community is very close to cracking tier 3. Been checking this thread every morning over coffee and think we're almost there. Actually I'm feeling pretty good about my latest idea (had to scratch my soul gem hypothesis yesterday when essense of earth and strong essence of earth were rejected from all altars)

My new proposal, along with reasoning, follows.

To achieve a tier 3 quasi or para combo, when embuing your supreme shard omit the energy cell and include essences for both relevant elements.

Here are the supporting arguments:

Logically this makes the most sense to me, since it follows the model of embuing a single shard with selected magical energies which can then be applied to your item. (i.e. essence of lightning is not so different from essence of fire, and a single shard should be able to contain either)
The official crafting intro (http://www.ddo.com/articles/945) contains this sentence, which I cite as the best evidence for my proposal: In most recipes, you’ll usually need to include an Energy Cell to power the device, though some recipes contain enough magic on their own to power the altar. In the walkthrough the context for this statement was the blank creation (Eberron) process, but the wording seems significant to me. Note it pointedly does not say "for other recipes you will require", and so far we haven't seen any other occasions where power can be omitted.
From a cost perspective, this requires 4 additional large ingredients, which would be fair for items that "tend to be" a little more powerful than the straight elemental upgrades. I was not very convinced by suggestions that 2 fully charged shards would work, given how powerful the "straight" upgrades are. A recipe requiring 24 large ingredients would be either overpowered for the game or overpriced for the power IMO.


Fortunately, this can be tested without the extreme investment of collecting 24 large ingredients, and if the combination fails there should be nothing lost. If I am wrong I would expect the combination won't mix at all; no harm done. Finally, this is an experiment that some friends/guildies should be able to collaborate on, since a bound shard will only be produced on success (so maybe you can borrow the ingredients or the missing essence; if the combination fails it can be returned. If it succeeds then you have a bound shard, but hey, progress!)

I urge someone who is in a position to do this to please try this approach and publish your results. I only have 5 or so larges, but I'll be talking to guildies to see who is in the best position to try Tier3 on a quasi or para item. Might take a bit longer on my end...

Good mixing!

Halfpint / Saigo / MrTea / Coldpint / Ironpint of Eternal Wrath on Sarlona

This sounds highly possible. Multiple imbued shards would be very expensive, by an order of magnitude. Swapping a power cell for a second foci would be slightly more expensive, and in line for a 'somewhat more powerful effect'. And also not break the statements of not being able to put in multiple shards.

Big-Dex
02-27-2008, 02:39 PM
This sounds highly possible. Multiple imbued shards would be very expensive, by an order of magnitude. Swapping a power cell for a second foci would be slightly more expensive, and in line for a 'somewhat more powerful effect'. And also not break the statements of not being able to put in multiple shards.


Couple that with the statement by my informant ...


Q: Can a imbued shard of power be imbued further on the same altar by adding another set ingredients (gem/foci/essence) to it?
A: Cryptic carefully worded answer: gem/foci/essence? No. ;)

... and you have a high likelihood that this might work.

Hmmm....

Auran82
02-27-2008, 02:51 PM
Has anyone tried combining an imbues Shard of Power + the 4 base ingredients in the last altar?

For example, a Shard of Supreme power (imbued with fire) + 4 large ingredients to make an essence of earth to make an imbued shard of magma.

Riggs
02-27-2008, 02:52 PM
You know, it might be as simple as combining two Superior Foci on the altar. High Energy Cell (optional?) + Superior Focus of Positive Energy + Superior Focus of Air = Superior Focus of Lightning?

Has anyone tried that? Again, we're concerned with the Altar of Devastation - not working on the other two is irrelevant.

"I asked Eladrin the following...

Can more than one imbued shard of power be applied to a green steel blank at each altar? More specifically, can three shards of power be applied at each altar, since there are two additional empty slots in the device when you upgrade an item.
To which he replied...


Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power."

and
"Q: Do all the altars act in the same way regarding ingredients or does teir 3 (Devestation) have special abilities (combining shards)?
A: All altars do not behave the same way. Maybe, to the last."

It would be implied it seems that multiple shards is not the answer, but multiple foci in some way. Either as said just combining 2 foci and a cell to get a quasi/para foci, or skipping the cell in the shard recipe and putting 2 foci in to get 'Magma foci'. Or perhaps even a 3rd option, after a shard has been imbued, the extra spaces in the final recipe might be used for extra foci - but that seems an awkward path to follow.

We have seen failures in simple foci combinations, perhaps this is why, any 'mixed' elements have to be imbued with 2 foci at the 3rd altar or it will result in no tier 3 effect. And ONLY at the 3rd altar will someone be able to try mixing things in this special way, trying it at the first 2 will not have any extra effects.

LeLoric
02-27-2008, 03:09 PM
So someone ask Eladrin if there are any recipes that require multiple foci

gpk
02-27-2008, 03:47 PM
NOTE: The Pure Good 1d6 per hit has been fixed for pure good burst (tier2), the burst part is still pure good and hits all non-good mobs (better for us, but still a small bug).

Presumably Good Blast will now add 4d6 (on a khopesh, elemental blasts add 2d10 on khop) additional damage on a critical hit; can anyone with a tier3 good blast confirm description has been update to show this?

Aesop
02-27-2008, 03:56 PM
Don't you need a Gem of Cleansing or some such thing to use in the last alter to cleanse the taint from items?

I suppose there could be other things that you could get besides that... but wouldn't that be the last thing that Eladrin is implying for the Alter

Aesop

Borror0
02-27-2008, 03:59 PM
NOTE: The Pure Good 1d6 per hit has been fixed for pure good blast (tier2), the burst part is still prue good and hits all non-good mobs (better for us, but still a small bug).


You mean Good Burst?

As for the bug, I blame the lousy person in charge of item description. There is a lot of information lacking on lots of items. Shortly put, I say it's a description bug rather than a item bug.

Gol
02-27-2008, 04:05 PM
My bet is on combining 2 Foci with a power cell to make a "Focus of Mineral" (or the level 2 combo of your choice).

gpk
02-27-2008, 04:16 PM
You mean Good Burst?

As for the bug, I blame the lousy person in charge of item description. There is a lot of information lacking on lots of items. Shortly put, I say it's a description bug rather than a item bug.

D'oh yes I meant the 1d6 pure good dmg on Good Burst (tier2 effect), edited.

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-27-2008, 04:37 PM
I am left (in my mind) with two theories for how bonus effects from tier 3 quasi/para elemental combinations can be unlocked at tier 3.

Theory 1

If you've gone pos/earth already (e.g. my Khopesh (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%202/Weapon%20+DM%20EDM.png)):

Step 1. Create a pos shard e.g.

shard of supreme power + focus of positive energy + gem of opposition + ethereal essence + cell

Step 2. Then you would add earth to your shard:

imbued shard + focus of earth + cell

Step 3. then add double-imbued shard (of mineral) to weapon:

green steel weapon + Imbued shard of mineral/opp/eth + cell

...and get +4 AC. You could also get potentially e.g. +2 CON +2 WIS at 3rd tier if you put eth/esc in instead. Note: this explains why it's +4 AC and only +2 to stats (think about it).

Theory 2

Only other theory that matches the evidence (see below) is combining steps 2 and 3 into one step where you put the imbued shard + weapon + other focus + cell into the machine and skip the step of trying to create a mineral shard of power.

Now, my reasons for reducing to these two theories are:



Cryptic carefully worded answer: gem/foci/essence? No


This signifies it's probably not all three, maybe just one. I'm guessing just the focus since that's what's required from an elemental perspective. It also minimises grinding while also keeping the concept of 2 focus 3rd tier upgrades. It also matches with Eladrin's comments that it's a 'bit more tricky' not 'twice as hard'... on average, only 25% more grinding in fact.



Every elemental combination will do something neat at Tier Two, though none reach their full potential until Tier Three. A Tier Two recipe without a proper Tier Three addition will not unlock the full potential of the item. Saying the item is disappointing and needs to be remade from scratch may be a bit excessive - it's still a Tier Two item with an additional benefit from the Tier Three improvement

Implies that the weapon, once upgraded at tier 3, can't be 'fixed' - i.e. this discounts the theory of adding a pos/opp/eth shard then adding an earth/opp/eth shard to the already third tier weapon. I propose that once a weapon has had a shard added it can't have any more added. Eladrin would not have implied it was 'excessive' to call this weapon a 'failure' if there was a way of 'fixing' it.



Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power.


Discounts adding green steel item + shard + shard + cell



(all) Shavarath transformations however do require an energy cell.


So it can't be shard + focus + focus + gem + essence, because there's only space for five items in the Eldritch device (e.g. trying to make a shard of mineral/opposition/ethereal directly as above)

I propose that anyone wishing to test these theories try the first theory (two step process) before trying shard + weapon + focus + cell, since shard + weapon + focus + cell, if incorrect, will consume the shard, weapon and cell and leave you with a focus in the machine (if Shavarath transformations are coded the same as Stone of Change transformations, which I would suspect they are).

Maybe I can persuade the guild to pool our large ingredients to try this sometime soon. :)

Garth

Boulderun
02-27-2008, 04:55 PM
If you're going to try any of this anyway, you'll need at the very least the two foci - so try combining them already. :p

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-27-2008, 05:42 PM
If you're going to try any of this anyway, you'll need at the very least the two foci - so try combining them already. :p

Good point - I don't think that's going to work though - I have a feeling that shards are the only things that can 'contain' foci, but I will try that next time we run the raid for completion.

Garth

query
02-27-2008, 05:42 PM
All of you who have tried and succeeded or failed with your efforts. Winner or +5 save and nothing better mixed for your class/race is ALWAYS noted and appreciated for your efforts. Thank you for so many updates that paved the way for us...




Now, I'd like to go over some things either mentioned before or going with the concept of KISS. KISS is Keep It Simple.....Smartypants...yeah that's it!



Elements triple upgrade are the easiest confirmed but not as 'rewarding.'
Due to it being really simple to fgure out things like fire+more fire=better fire+more fire=best fire

Three of the same upgraded materials upgraded the same on all three altars=big upgrade.
So yeah, we know what my helm of EEP (escalation etherial positive...I originally had that reversed but it could have been flagged as offensive wordwise :o) is making if I go do it three times on each raid altar since I keep upgrading the same three things to their maximum not combining them into something quasi OR para elemental (of which the materials upgraded become EXTREMELY important as to decide what is upgraded on altars part 1 and 2...more on this later.)

If you already have something done twice in a row, don't try and make it a quasi or para and expect guaranteed results.
So if you went earth earth, going fire now is not as smart as doing earth fire before which gets you the magma. Best if you did go the same on both is to continue that and get the third upgrade reward of the same element/focus/energy and to focus on the different combinations of the other two upgrade ingredient items. So again, if you went earth earth, keep going earth for that nice earthgrab/evil ward and consider something like positive/negative/x or Neg/Neg/Neg and earth/fire/x. This also means please CONSIDER for now not doing anything either like X/same/same or fire/water/water and bemoaning no tier three celebrations. Then again, if you're just doing that for a certain character benefit or protection, that's fine, but this ain't necessarily the unlocked uber Uber Chocolte Peanut Butter cups, now with secret ingredient X either.
(Yes I *AM* old enough to remember that commerical, the argument over wether Certs is a breath or candy mint, and why sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't. Apologies, I should have done Reese's/Peter Paul's/Certs' since that combo causes breath of fressnes after the quasi-candy of Sugar Rush instead of no Breath of Freshness since the candy was mixed up. Yes that is a subtle hint about using different things and the order you do them is vitally important even if two of the combinations seem to make the same combined effect; the order of combination is critical.)

The order upgraded IS critical for things, so elemental FEE is not the same as EEF. Even FEW is different than EFW.
The methof of HOW you introduce elements, aspects, etc, is a key critical. That hint Eldarin gave about introducing positive FIRST means more potential combinations may be done if you introduced it say secondly or last possibly. Again, this has yet to be confirmed until every combination has been tested, but seems very minimal on any "between the lines" vs straight talk. But if that means (as long as you accept the second upgrade's result) there would be a difference for you/us prefered if you went Fire Earth Earth or Earth Fire Fire is up to the informed crafter and is not necesarily "wrong." Some people want that middle slot to have that benefit but still need that last slot for an improved x benefit. That said....

This also means, if you went for some balance, try not to knock it out of alignment.
Such as by going back to that same material and expect anything amazing either. You went positive and negative and got balanced? Great! Don't go positive again and think it will be a Tier 3 then. Same thing if you do something like fire-water-water, etc. This does not NECESSARILY mean if you go Fire-water-fire for a new para/quasi elemental you won't get something. This does not NECESSARILY mean you will either.

Remember: No quasi-para combinations are being done. You may get a nice effect but not a guaranteed effect. Sorry Fire-Water-Positive people who wanted both unlocks.

If the above tip wasn't enough to rememeber KISS: if it doesn't work in Merida's altar, don't expect it to likely work in the raid's altar either. Again, I use the word LIKELY, no dogma, but trying to determine what order you placed the ingredients for the upgrade or wether it was ABC or BCA placed in the altar is as likely to matter as it did when you made your wonderous item: that still makes a Z upgrade and it's what you combine that Z with that determines the final end result or at least the final end upgrade for that altar's upgrade. Adding multiple items that were not meant to go in the altar is an obvious no (like a shard of power or imbuded shard of power in the final [for those lucky enough to have won the raid] altar's slots which is made for SUPREME shards-imbuded or otherwise-period.) Adding multiple boring shards I could have told you was not going to work. And for those who wear shards, look I can wear a tome too! It's classified as jewelery so you can sell them; that doesn't mean you should put them in the trinket slot. Also, if adding multiple ores or tapers failed, don't expect it to work on the raid ones either in regards to raid ingredients raw, upgraded or otherwise. As for adding DIFFERENT raw/updated ingredients, that will be covered later, but stick to the SIZE or STRENGTH of the raw/upgraded ingredients to its respected altar until you have screenshots proving otherwise. It's your expierment, but try not to do a likely failure.

Again, if it worked in the Merida Alar, consider tryng it somewhere in the raid....
Now, we all knew how to make out updated ingredients once we got to Merida and were shown the wonder. But a lot of people also learned we needed to update something without power and completely different from an upgraded ingredient yet vital to its symbiosis: the Stone. Placing five of those stone shards in that altar made something new and NO power needed.
PERHAPS something can be done in one, some or ALL of the raid altars that do not take a power cell and/or a shard of power? Has anybody ever done [size] bones,scale,stone,arrowhead, scales before? Have we tried imbuing multiple shards yet at the appropriate altars? Not yet, but those seem much better likely whether my escalation gem is in slot two over slot three.....Thanks for Smithers for pointing the latter out BTW. I was focusing on the 5 item idea and he made me wonder if imbueds can be combined into a "super imbued" also.

Don't be afraid to ask. Not only us, but those answering our questions actually working for Turbine.
For instance:
Hey Eladrin! Can you combine multiple imbued shards of Power to make something else? What if they were all the same way crafted? What about if they were the same type but different types of materials? What about different types?

Expect sometimes there not to be a clear answer or no answer at all.
I hope this doesn't mean my above questions are ignored. We really would appreciate any answers on what could be given on the above questions as well as ANY thing I or we posted for clarification. After all, I wantred to use the rubber hose on informant X, but they talked me down into using sweets instead. We've been nice, but we're hoping for some positive clarification too between the riddles. That's the only thing keeping the aspect of ooze water drip torture item from being crafted by me :p

READ everything before posting or at least the first several often updated posts and the last few pages before commenting.
You're not asked to read all the pages (77 at my posting time and certainly more to come.) But don't bother to post basic questions that are answered on those first several how-to post if it's answered there. If it's posted there, that means it's been tested and confirmed allmost guaranteed. Sure, we post mistakes and are subsequently updated here, but those original posts are then edited to show said corrections which may not have been caught by the OP and are on those said last pages you just ignored and posted what was just posted there today....

Just because it's is/is not listed on the item doesn't mean it works/doesn't work this way.
Come on, if in the raid, you're at least L 12 and likely L 14 to 16 by now. Surely you have seen ONE DDO item that works differently than listed? Turbine makes mistakes, and this includes the raid-item description whether not listed or listed and performing differently. That Good may not good burst or there may BE shocking damage on a non crit, etc. Check your results logs (often combat) first before postintg the "concluded" result.
And on a disapproval note, If this was a keystone of the Mod 6 update right after raising the level cap, I think better proofing and QA could have been done on the item description/actual properties. Each segment of the raid has the potential of costing players tens of thousands of gold from repairs, comsumables/wands/spell components, etc. I'd expect a high level quality of care, not the same bugs as usual in item introduction. If I wanted a Troll Ring, I'd go to the desert, so how about clearly noting the SPEED of said regeneration and noting it is NOT functional in forged (and that item technically "works" as listed not lie the bursts or some of the invisible tier three benefits like evil protection against w third upgraded pure earth item.)

There are no guarantees.
Yes, cookbook person did it this way and it's not working. Maybe it doesn't work, maybe a mistake in posting/crafting was made, maybe it just doesn't work anymore. Things change in crafting, and that uber may become yesterday's batman build, so be warned it may never have or may not have worked as hoped (any more.)

Remember, I am not God (or technically yet, any diety of D&D or DDO either.)
I too make mistakes often and think my sayings here are just options you can use or ignore, but they are frequently backed from other players and my personal real life testings. This isn't about whether I'm right or wrong; this is about finding solutions for ALL players. Ego schmeego, I'm hoping the above means somebody didn't waste x time/ingredients/money trying obvious failure #34 and found a new success. That's all. I'm not in any way angry or mocking anybody's actions (just those who do the same thing over and over asking why nothing changes. ;) ) If you feel I trolled you in any way, that was not my intent and I apologize. This is not aimed at XY or Z person/group. This just is a compilation hoping to stop any failures and certainly any more DEDEDE's. So if I or we too make a mistake or...eek, heaven forbid, a DEDEDE, let me and/or us know and it will be corrected, no egg on face feelings needed.

Finally, [b]HAVE FUN!
Those who ask for that ingredient's formula will be on the receiving end of the +5 wet noodle of lashings [infinity charges] ;) No, you can't have THAT item's formula either :p

Wizzly_Bear
02-27-2008, 05:51 PM
what about (magma/etc) with (pos/neg) at tier 3? positive enhances right? enhance that magma i say, see if enhanced magma = magma 2

Coldin
02-27-2008, 06:00 PM
Anyone find out what exactly the "blasts" have been changed to yet?

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-27-2008, 06:09 PM
Positive + Water + Positive is listed as a failure on the wiki. Assuming that is accurate, I think we can move on.

I noticed this too, but don't recall seeing the screenshot. Page history shows that it was added by MT. MT - can you provide us with the screenshot please... pretty please?

Garth

mcik17
02-27-2008, 06:18 PM
Question...has anyone did the extra quest that u get inside Meridia up on the Pillars(The one that u turn in the dropped ags from the raid)? If so what do u get for the completion...is it an item that might be able to put in one of the altars? I havent done it yet and this might have already been touched on ...but this topic is so long i didnt feel like going back and looking! Just a thought though!

Erinyes
02-27-2008, 06:21 PM
what about (magma/etc) with (pos/neg) at tier 3? positive enhances right? enhance that magma i say, see if enhanced magma = magma 2

Wouldn't that classify as a para-quasi-elemental combination? If so, Eladrin has already ruled that out as an option.

Ilandrya
02-27-2008, 06:36 PM
I noticed this too, but don't recall seeing the screenshot. Page history shows that it was added by MT. MT - can you provide us with the screenshot please... pretty please?

Garth

Screenshots don't show the third focus used on failed attempts. Where third focus failures are concerned, we have to rely on word of mouth. Not as reliable as a screenshot unfortunately.

Borror0
02-27-2008, 06:55 PM
NOTE: The Pure Good 1d6 per hit has been fixed for pure good burst (tier2), the burst part is still pure good and hits all non-good mobs (better for us, but still a small bug).

Isn't it supposed to be Holy (as in 2d6)?

At least that is what Release Notes says..

Big-Dex
02-27-2008, 06:56 PM
Question...has anyone did the extra quest that u get inside Meridia up on the Pillars(The one that u turn in the dropped ags from the raid)? If so what do u get for the completion...is it an item that might be able to put in one of the altars? I havent done it yet and this might have already been touched on ...but this topic is so long i didnt feel like going back and looking! Just a thought though!


From what I understand, it is just XP. Look at your quest journal for those quests. For turning in 100, I think you get approx. 1500 XP. Not even worth the effort if that is all you get. I have not heard of anything else.

FWIW...

mcik17
02-27-2008, 06:57 PM
i guess no has done the quest in Meridia yet then....to see what end reward u get....I wonder if this is an item to put in the altar to get the mysterious special effect!

mcik17
02-27-2008, 07:03 PM
Yeah quest journal says only 1400 xp for a 100 of them. Thats not very much and they seem pretty rare.....at least ive never picked one up. I wonder if anyone has ever completed it....just to see?

Ilandrya
02-27-2008, 07:15 PM
Isn't it supposed to be Holy (as in 2d6)?

At least that is what Release Notes says..

Holy 2d6 (Evil Targets) was the first upgrade.

Good Burst is the second, does 1d6 Good (Non-Good Targets), and additional on a crit. Previous to 6.1 the crit portion was against evil targets. The change, as I understand it, is that the crit portion should now works against non-good targets instead of evil ones, in keeping with the title of "Good Burst", and now has the proper visual effect.

Blasts are the third upgrade. Before, they only did damage when you rolled a nat 20 and confirmed (vorpal rate). Now, they do damage on a critical, and additional damage on a nat 20.

Good burst, evil burst, good blast, evil blast were not passing alignment dr correcty.

query
02-27-2008, 07:36 PM
Yeah quest journal says only 1400 xp for a 100 of them. Thats not very much and they seem pretty rare.....at least ive never picked one up. I wonder if anyone has ever completed it....just to see?

They also bind and since I only got one I'm unsure but THINK they are non-stackable.

Boulderun
02-27-2008, 07:43 PM
They do stack, but they are still thoroughly broken.

Vesuvia
02-27-2008, 08:14 PM
They are VERY broken in fact. There is no quest it appears to pick up the orthon nail platings or the bearded devils items, but there are bladestorm fragments and another one I can't think off hand I have never seen. Either way I have some 24 portal fragments and another 18 healing totems the gnolls can drop in pt 4. If and when I get to 100 I'll confirm if it's just junk xp or worthwhile. If a DEV reads this I sure hope it's more worthwhile then 1400 xp, come on like anyone who actually gets 100 of these things isn't capped to begin with. Please also correct the 2 quests there is no item for and adjust them for the two you can get. Also, it'd be really nice since the counter of these doesnt work or only does have the time, that the count actually goes up as you turn them in.

Borror0
02-27-2008, 08:23 PM
Holy 2d6 (Evil Targets) was the first upgrade.

Good Burst is the second, does 1d6 Good (Non-Good Targets), and additional on a crit. Previous to 6.1 the crit portion was against evil targets. The change, as I understand it, is that the crit portion should now works against non-good targets instead of evil ones, in keeping with the title of "Good Burst", and now has the proper visual effect.

I'm talking about the Release notes that say:


Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

Which reads they have added a Holy portion to Blast and Burst... not saying they did, just saying it's how it sounds...

BlackPantha2
02-27-2008, 08:40 PM
We should all try to donate one large to the cause of trying to dual foci theory to prove once and for all if its possible to do it. I got a extra large twisted shrapnel. Anyone else?

Auran82
02-27-2008, 09:10 PM
They are VERY broken in fact. There is no quest it appears to pick up the orthon nail platings or the bearded devils items, but there are bladestorm fragments and another one I can't think off hand I have never seen. Either way I have some 24 portal fragments and another 18 healing totems the gnolls can drop in pt 4. If and when I get to 100 I'll confirm if it's just junk xp or worthwhile. If a DEV reads this I sure hope it's more worthwhile then 1400 xp, come on like anyone who actually gets 100 of these things isn't capped to begin with. Please also correct the 2 quests there is no item for and adjust them for the two you can get. Also, it'd be really nice since the counter of these doesnt work or only does have the time, that the count actually goes up as you turn them in.

I have 12 of the portal fragments on my fighter (they do stack) and my counter did increment when it picked one of them up (only one though) so when I'm in the shroud it shows as 1 of 100. It may have been the 10th one I picked up and it's counting them wrong, but I can't remember.

~sturm097
02-27-2008, 09:12 PM
I'm talking about the Release notes that say:



Which reads they have added a Holy portion to Blast and Burst... not saying they did, just saying it's how it sounds...

No, I think it means that the visual on the weapon is Holy or Unholy, or at least thats how I read it.

joeuhuh
02-27-2008, 09:28 PM
in my guild runs weve noticed u only get credit for pickin up portal frag if u pick up the frag and got the kill on portal-- not realy great testin for this but so far ive picked up 4 i got kils on and got cridit for all 4 and picked up 5 since started watching that i didnt get kil and i didnt get credit for those---- prety special ed way to do a collectible imo as it prety much makes suport toons unable to do this collectible cause tey never get kil on portal and also i think if only get crdit if u get kil they should only be able to be picked up by person who can gget credit for it kinda all assbackwards way for a collectible quest to be run

edit all is good in the Mark they fixed the collectibles in the shroud-- they now have a description the world is saved

query
02-28-2008, 12:57 AM
They do stack, but they are still thoroughly broken.
Oh good, 1 benefit for the inventory hogging crapapolooza. That's the ONLY thing that makes them more managable than shards.....yeah, I'll be getting 100 riiight after I get my tome pieces....for several books.

Raidon
02-28-2008, 03:09 AM
Keep up the good work all on the research.

My latest Complete item was a Khopesh:

1st Material / Dominion / Positive

2nd Material / Dominion / Earth

3rd Material / Dominion / Earth

So + E E on a khopesh produced NO Special. I really did think that the 3rd upgrade ( Earth ) would combine with the affinity (Positive), to double the aspect of Mineral. It didn't but felt it had to be tried before moving on with the double focus theory.

Next will be working on the double focus theory in 1 week, if it hasn't been tried by then.

Latest Recipes as always at http://stormlords.net/crafting

Big-Dex
02-28-2008, 03:12 AM
On the Altar of Invasion...


I attempted to combine 2 foci (eartha and fire) onto an empty power shard -- NO GO.
I attempted to combine a foci (fire) unto am earth imbued and then a fire imbued shard -- NO GO.Need to craft a green steel blank weapon before I can attempt to add an extra foci to a weapon in the place of a energy cell. Need one more shavarath stone and a few ingredients. Next day or two, I guess.

On the Altar of Devestation...


I attempted to combine 2 foci (earth and fire) onto an empty power shard -- NO GO.
I attempted to imbue a shard of great power with 2 foci (earth and fire) along with a gem of domination and a etherial essence (so I used a second foci in the place of an energy cell) -- NO GO.This seems to eliminate in my mind this altar from contention for imbuing shards of power with more than foci. Therefore, it seems that the Altar of Devestation is our ticket, as we have been told that all altars do not act the same, maybe to THE LAST.

I have started collecting large ingredients, but have a long way to go. Will update with any more information I acquire. Not too many more experiments left on the lower altar, so...

Until next time...
~ DEX

Sharzade
02-28-2008, 03:25 AM
Keep up the good work all on the research.

My latest Complete item was a Khopesh:

1st Material / Dominion / Positive

2nd Material / Dominion / Earth

3rd Material / Dominion / Earth

So + E E on a khopesh produced NO Special. I really did think that the 3rd upgrade ( Earth ) would combine with the affinity (Positive), to double the aspect of Mineral. It didn't but felt it had to be tried before moving on with the double focus theory.

Next will be working on the double focus theory in 1 week, if it hasn't been tried by then.

Latest Recipes as always at http://stormlords.net/crafting

Thanks for the great research. :) I've been collecting ingredients to try the same final step you've just done on the Altar of Devastation (Positive, Earth, Earth), though I was thinking of going Fire in the hopes of a Mineral/Radiance special effect. Now my thinking on how to get Mineral II or Radiance at the third Tier is upended. Maybe a mineral aspect is needed for the supreme shard. I like the idea of mingling aspects to make something new/remarkable.

Cheers,

Sharzade
:D :p

Riggs
02-28-2008, 03:30 AM
what about (magma/etc) with (pos/neg) at tier 3? positive enhances right? enhance that magma i say, see if enhanced magma = magma 2

Perhaps reading the post above yours. or any of the rest of the thread would answer many questions. Or answers already contained in developer posts. or ddo wiki, or one of several threads or links that have posted successful and failed attempts.

It has been tried and failed at least a half dozen times, and a developer post said there is no effect from that kind of combo.

Riggs
02-28-2008, 03:32 AM
Thanks for the great research. :) I've been collecting ingredients to try the same final step you've just done on the Altar of Devastation (Positive, Earth, Earth), though I was thinking of going Fire in the hopes of a Mineral/Radiance special effect. Now my thinking on how to get Mineral II or Radiance at the third Tier is upended. Maybe a mineral aspect is needed for the supreme shard. I like the idea of mingling aspects to make something new/remarkable.

Cheers,

Sharzade
:D :p

As above - you are certainly welcome to test yourself triple foci combos. However since a developer post has said that there is NO special effects from that kind of combo.....well they are your ingredients to spend.

Angelus_dead
02-28-2008, 04:42 AM
From anyone who has the items in question, can you answer:

1. How much damage does an effect like Acid Blast do on a natural 20? We know it does 4d6 on every crit, but what about 20s?

2. Does the Healing Amplification effect increase the healing you get? Or does it kill you?

maddmatt70
02-28-2008, 04:53 AM
From anyone who has the items in question, can you answer:

1. How much damage does an effect like Acid Blast do on a natural 20? We know it does 4d6 on every crit, but what about 20s?

2. Does the Healing Amplification effect increase the healing you get? Or does it kill you?

I read the release notes differently on a natural 20 it does 4d6 but on a crit it does less.. Only one way to find out that is for people that have them to test it out..

Ilandrya
02-28-2008, 05:19 AM
At this point, I don't have enough evidence about my previous theory to eliminate both possibilities in that theory, although I'm fairly certain at this point one possibility can be safely discounted. I have come up with another theory, which plays off of some information already suggested. Playing off the idea that each altar is slightly stronger than the last:

focus 1 = "1 point"
focus 2 = "2 points"
focus 3 = "3 points"

focus 1 + focus 2 = 3 points... "aspect 1"
focus 3 = 3 points... "aspect 2"

We know that it takes two focuses to create an aspect, and that its possible to have "magma I" and "magma II" on the same item. While it's true "Magma II" may not be created from another aspect but something else entirely, for the purpose of my theory I'm going to assume it is.

With that in mind, two focuses somehow need to be added at the third altar. This has been suggested previously, but as most things follow a pattern of some sort that we have seen thus far as crafting is concerned, I didn't see a pattern to this idea and was looking for one. (I tend to think along the lines of patterns and structure when problem solving anyway, so my theories tend to revolve around such.) Equating a numerical value to each altar of +1 over the previous one allows for 3 points per aspect, if you will, which establishes a point value necessary to create an aspect. If there are two aspects, their point value, if you will, should be equal to each other. In this case, that works.

Now following that, and using the same point value for focuses if we assume again that

an inferior focus has a value of 1 point
a focus (medium) has a value of 2 points
a superior focus has a value of 3 points

Now if we are going straight air, air, air you would use inferior air, focus air = 3 points air (focus 1), superior focus air = 3 points air (focus 2).
But, if we are going magma I and magma 2 you would use for example, inferior earth, focus fire = 3 points magma I (focus 1)
and inferior earth, focus fire again at the third altar for 3 points magma II (focus 2)

(It's possible also that since the first aspect use a smaller amount of earth than fire to create magma I to maintain the balance for magma II you would need to go inferior fire, focus earth for magma II, but I'm not sure if that would matter or not.)

So, it may be we have to use a inferior focus and a "medium" focus at the third altar somehow. As for how to combine them, your guess is as good as mine at this point.

Again, this is just a theory.

philo
02-28-2008, 05:29 AM
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii281/GnarlyGnome/watergreensteel.jpg

screenshot came out kind of dark...and pink:P

water/escalation/material all the way through

Dont think it was confirmed but as everyone suspected..crushing wave guard on clothing

Cashiry
02-28-2008, 05:30 AM
3 Tier Khopesh I made http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u163/cashiry/5SupremeTyrantGreenSteelKhopesh.jpg

1st Tier: Inferior Focus of Positive Energy, Cloudy Gem of Dominion, Diluted Material Essence
Effect: Holy

2nd Tier: Focus of Earth, Gem of Dominion, Material Essence,
Effect: Acid Burst, 2 charges 16 lvl Stoneskin

3rd Tier: Superior Focus of Positive Energy, Flawless Gem of Opposition, Pure Ethereal Essence
Effect: +4 AC(Insight Bonus)

Notthing Special for Positive/Positve/Earth

smithers
02-28-2008, 05:58 AM
At this point, I don't have enough evidence about my previous theory to eliminate both possibilities in that theory, although I'm fairly certain at this point one possibility can be safely discounted. I have come up with another theory, which plays off of some information already suggested. Playing off the idea that each altar is slightly stronger than the last:

focus 1 = "1 point"
focus 2 = "2 points"
focus 3 = "3 points"

focus 1 + focus 2 = 3 points... "aspect 1"
focus 3 = 3 points... "aspect 2"

We know that it takes two focuses to create an aspect, and that its possible to have "magma I" and "magma II" on the same item. While it's true "Magma II" may not be created from another aspect but something else entirely, for the purpose of my theory I'm going to assume it is.

With that in mind, two focuses somehow need to be added at the third altar. This has been suggested previously, but as most things follow a pattern of some sort that we have seen thus far as crafting is concerned, I didn't see a pattern to this idea and was looking for one. (I tend to think along the lines of patterns and structure when problem solving anyway, so my theories tend to revolve around such.) Equating a numerical value to each altar of +1 over the previous one allows for 3 points per aspect, if you will, which establishes a point value necessary to create an aspect. If there are two aspects, their point value, if you will, should be equal to each other. In this case, that works.

Now following that, and using the same point value for focuses if we assume again that

an inferior focus has a value of 1 point
a focus (medium) has a value of 2 points
a superior focus has a value of 3 points

Now if we are going straight air, air, air you would use inferior air, focus air = 3 points air (focus 1), superior focus air = 3 points air (focus 2).
But, if we are going magma I and magma 2 you would use for example, inferior earth, focus fire = 3 points magma I (focus 1)
and inferior earth, focus fire again at the third altar for 3 points magma II (focus 2)

(It's possible also that since the first aspect use a smaller amount of earth than fire to create magma I to maintain the balance for magma II you would need to go inferior fire, focus earth for magma II, but I'm not sure if that would matter or not.)

So, it may be we have to use a inferior focus and a "medium" focus at the third altar somehow. As for how to combine them, your guess is as good as mine at this point.

Again, this is just a theory.

I don't get it.

Despite all your linguistic flourishes I can't find any discoveries or even concrete suggestions in this.

I fear you could elaborate for four pages and together we would arrive back at 1+2+3 = 6, which I am willing to accept without any protest. :p

Aiyee this thread will never end!

Endrik
02-28-2008, 06:11 AM
On the Altar of Devestation...


I attempted to combine 2 foci (earth and fire) onto an empty power shard -- NO GO.
I attempted to imbue a shard of great power with 2 foci (earth and fire) along with a gem of domination and a etherial essence (so I used a second foci in the place of an energy cell) -- NO GO.This seems to eliminate in my mind this altar from contention for imbuing shards of power with more than foci. Therefore, it seems that the Altar of Devestation is our ticket, as we have been told that all altars do not act the same, maybe to THE LAST.

I have started collecting large ingredients, but have a long way to go. Will update with any more information I acquire. Not too many more experiments left on the lower altar, so...

Until next time...
~ DEX

jperz,
Did you happen to try adding an essence and gem to an already imbued shard? (empty shard and power cell representing the remaining two components)

Thanks,

Ilandrya
02-28-2008, 06:14 AM
I don't get it.

Despite all your linguistic flourishes I can't find any discoveries or even concrete suggestions in this.

I fear you could elaborate for four pages and together we would arrive back at 1+2+3 = 6, which I am willing to accept without any protest. :p

Aiyee this thread will never end!

My theory plays off of what others have already suggested recently. The purpose of my post was to establish a pattern behind the the recent suggestion, which when followed out futher, then suggests what size focuses we may need to use at the third altar. No discoveries, just a theory.

I'd rather prefer not to have to elaborate for four pages... reminds me too much of word count requirement essays... let's insert a bunch of garbage for "filler" content that basically doesn't say anthing other than we've already said. :p

As for this thread never ending, that's my fear as well... :rolleyes:

squiddaddy
02-28-2008, 07:57 AM
I don't get it.

Despite all your linguistic flourishes I can't find any discoveries or even concrete suggestions in this.

I fear you could elaborate for four pages and together we would arrive back at 1+2+3 = 6, which I am willing to accept without any protest. :p

Aiyee this thread will never end!

he's suggesting that you need an equal amount of foci juice to in the tier3 upgrade as you had in tier1+tier2

so using small and medium focus at the final altar instead of large.

hope that translated somewhat. to this end can someone simply try tighthole finger shoving all the various bits into all the various altars to confirm/deny whether this is even a possibility?

Myrdinn
02-28-2008, 08:03 AM
At this point, I don't have enough evidence about my previous theory to eliminate both possibilities in that theory, although I'm fairly certain at this point one possibility can be safely discounted. I have come up with another theory, which plays off of some information already suggested. Playing off the idea that each altar is slightly stronger than the last:

focus 1 = "1 point"
focus 2 = "2 points"
focus 3 = "3 points"

focus 1 + focus 2 = 3 points... "aspect 1"
focus 3 = 3 points... "aspect 2"

We know that it takes two focuses to create an aspect, and that its possible to have "magma I" and "magma II" on the same item. While it's true "Magma II" may not be created from another aspect but something else entirely, for the purpose of my theory I'm going to assume it is.

With that in mind, two focuses somehow need to be added at the third altar. This has been suggested previously, but as most things follow a pattern of some sort that we have seen thus far as crafting is concerned, I didn't see a pattern to this idea and was looking for one. (I tend to think along the lines of patterns and structure when problem solving anyway, so my theories tend to revolve around such.) Equating a numerical value to each altar of +1 over the previous one allows for 3 points per aspect, if you will, which establishes a point value necessary to create an aspect. If there are two aspects, their point value, if you will, should be equal to each other. In this case, that works.

Now following that, and using the same point value for focuses if we assume again that

an inferior focus has a value of 1 point
a focus (medium) has a value of 2 points
a superior focus has a value of 3 points

Now if we are going straight air, air, air you would use inferior air, focus air = 3 points air (focus 1), superior focus air = 3 points air (focus 2).
But, if we are going magma I and magma 2 you would use for example, inferior earth, focus fire = 3 points magma I (focus 1)
and inferior earth, focus fire again at the third altar for 3 points magma II (focus 2)

(It's possible also that since the first aspect use a smaller amount of earth than fire to create magma I to maintain the balance for magma II you would need to go inferior fire, focus earth for magma II, but I'm not sure if that would matter or not.)

So, it may be we have to use a inferior focus and a "medium" focus at the third altar somehow. As for how to combine them, your guess is as good as mine at this point.

Again, this is just a theory.

I get your point, but does the last altar accept the small and medium focus in the first place?

stockwizard5
02-28-2008, 08:09 AM
Note: Existential Stalemate is +4 WIS on Sceptor!

Question: Does 10% Fire Absorption and 15% Fire Absorption Stack?

Tier Three Bonuses: I have 73 Reported Tier 3 Upgrades and only 6 have bonuses (AAA, EEE, FFF, NNN, PPP, WWW). Starting to think we are missing something. What I have not seen is the catagory I labeled "Special" which includes:

AAE, AAW, AEA, AEE, AWA, AWW
EAA, EAE, EEA, EEF, EFE, EFF
FEE, FEF, FFE, FFW, FWF, FWW
WAA, WAW, WFF, WFW, WWA, WWF

If any of these does not work - we are missing something important.

Ilandrya
02-28-2008, 08:20 AM
he's suggesting that you need an equal amount of foci juice to in the tier3 upgrade as you had in tier1+tier2

Actually, I'm a she. :D


I get your point, but does the last altar accept the small and medium focus in the first place?

Directly, I don't believe so, but we are still looking into what is possible with power shards, and there may be a trick to it somewhere.

Shrazkil
02-28-2008, 08:58 AM
Has anyone tried Pos/Air/water?

perhaps lightning and water will create the elusive T3 effect.

Endrik
02-28-2008, 08:59 AM
...there may be a trick to it somewhere.

It is not lost on me that it is remarkably likely that the Devs are watching our efforts with pride and no small amount of amusement. Not that I'd have it any other way, mind you. I love a good challenge.

The "crafting riddle" has lasted FAR longer than any other puzzle (or raid challenge) they've created to date, so they are quite justified in their pride.

Boulderun
02-28-2008, 09:06 AM
I wasn't suggesting combining two Foci into a shard. I want to see combining just two foci alone (with an energy cell of course) to create a para or quasi focus which would then be used with a shard as normal.

And again, testing that on the first two altars means nothing. It would make no sense for this to function there, and we've heard from Eladrin that all the altars do not necessarily work the same.

I'm almost certain this is the right area to be investigating. Using a paraelemental or quasielemental focus is the least convoluted way to continue a nonlinear aspect path.

Focus A + Focus B = Focus X may not be the correct formula - it may require a gem and/or essence as well (Earth + Air + Opposition, or Fire + Positive + Dominion, etc) but I'm confident that we should be trying to figure how how to craft a para/quasi focus at the Altar of Devastation.

CaptGrim
02-28-2008, 09:18 AM
Note: Existential Stalemate is +4 WIS on Sceptor!



Just yesterday I saw a +6 wisdom from Existential Stalemate on goggles, So I think it has more to do with the way it is upgraded rather than the item it is crafted to.

Mad_Bombardier
02-28-2008, 09:25 AM
Note: Existential Stalemate is +4 WIS on Sceptor!


Just yesterday I saw a +6 wisdom from Existential Stalemate on goggles, So I think it has more to do with the way it is upgraded rather than the item it is crafted to.Screenshots for both of these claims, please. You are suggesting something contrary to what everyone else has generated. We like anomalies, but we need to see them to document them! :)

CaptGrim
02-28-2008, 09:32 AM
Focus A + Focus B = Focus X may not be the correct formula - it may require a gem and/or essence as well (Earth + Air + Opposition, or Fire + Positive + Dominion, etc) but I'm confident that we should be trying to figure how how to craft a para/quasi focus at the Altar of Devastation.

I agree with this line of thinking. Right now I have 2 toons with fire/water, and water/fire, in it would not hurt me(other than the wait) to build a 3rd tier water foci and a 3rd teir fire foci, in attempts to combine them to a tempered II foci. It may be awhile for me as I only have about 5 or 6 large ingreds ATM(damn horns).


@ Mad B, I will get a screenie when I get home from work, I know the drill but don't have the link on me :D


BTW my chart is still up and running and is fully updated with all 1st, 2nd and 1+2 combos.
Also have many/all known 3rd tier and 2nd combos.

link in sig.

Missing_Minds
02-28-2008, 09:51 AM
BTW all. (I'll try to post a screen cap later when I get home) but I made my goggles last night. EAE(1) and MEE(2) for the Balance of land and sky.

Sure, I got the +3 deflection and resistance, but my Balance value listed is 11 and not 10. Has the Wiki been wrong? Did they change this with the 6.1 update? Did it bug?

squiddaddy
02-28-2008, 10:03 AM
just a thought.
how about combining power shards themselves to create something new. capable of then containing two foci.

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-28-2008, 10:12 AM
After some very generous donations (in the interest of furthering research into quasielemental combinations) from guildies, I'm now ready to start testing Devastation theories this evening.

After consultation with my guild, I've decided to try and upgrade my Khopesh (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%202/Weapon%20+DM%20EDM.png) to Mineral II - I'm guessing the effect might be something like 'flesh to stone guard' or 'flesh to stone on hit' but it's going to be really hard to tell until I try. The other option was updating my goggles on Tinosa (currently Lightning I) but I felt the effect of Lightning II (maybe some kind of lightning guard?) probably wouldn't be as interesting as Mineral II.

I'm going to be running several tests in the altar of devestation to ensure that no ingredients are wasted and all the possibilities are tested. Here is what I'll be doing:

* Create Focus of Positive Energy (1 cell)
* Create Focus of Earth (1 cell)
* Create Gem of Opposition (1 cell)
* Create Essence of Ethereal (1 cell)
* Attempt combine two foci with 1 cell (1 cell) (I'm guessing this won't work but people on forums have suggested I try)
* Attempt combine empty shard, focus, focus, gem, essence (no cells) ('Anonymous Source' has confirmed by PM this shouldn't work, but it uses no cells so what-the-hell)
* Attempt Combine empty shard, pos focus, earth focus (1 cell) (again, I'd be surprised if this works, but it eliminates a theory)
* Combine empty shard, pos focus, gem, essence (1 cell) (this should succeeed - it's a normal upgrade)
* Combine pos/opp/eth shard, focus, cell (1 cell) - (this is the key to my theory - I hope this works!!!)
* Combine pos/opp/eth shard, focus, weapon, cell (1 cell) - this is the backup method but might just result in shard being eaten leaving focus remaining as spare.

Total: 9 cells required, but if all goes to plan, only 8.

If anyone has any other ideas to try while I'm experimenting then mail Large Power Cells to 'haeson' on Sarlona along with your suggestion and I can try them, I now have enough large ingredients to run some quite interesting experiments, but they cost large cells when they fail.

My only concern is that I'm mixing Dominion/Material with Opposition/Ethereal (because I want the +4 AC) - it this going to ruin the chances of getting a tier III upgrade...? This (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%203/Weapon%20EDM%20EDM%20EOE.jpg) Khopesh (EDM//EDM//EOE) suggests it shouldn't affect the experimentation so I'm willing to take that chance.

If it all fails then I'll have 1 earth focus left over for guildies to have, and a lot of explaining to do.

Either way, I'm going to owe a LOT of large ingredients to guildies, and I thank you all in advance!

Garth

Borror0
02-28-2008, 10:13 AM
Sure, I got the +3 deflection and resistance, but my Balance value listed is 11 and not 10. Has the Wiki been wrong? Did they change this with the 6.1 update? Did it bug?

Someone made that change overnight (10 to 11), I decided it let it go and see. It was +10 befiore the update, must have been changed to +11.

Oh well.:p

Missing_Minds
02-28-2008, 10:30 AM
Someone made that change overnight (10 to 11), I decided it let it go and see. It was +10 befiore the update, must have been changed to +11.

Oh well.:p

I made the change myself on the wiki. If you noticed, only one of the instances changed on the wiki page, not both.

Boulderun
02-28-2008, 10:33 AM
If anyone on Khyber is putting together multiple large manufactured components for testing, I can contribute some high energy cells.

stockwizard5
02-28-2008, 10:58 AM
Just yesterday I saw a +6 wisdom from Existential Stalemate on goggles, So I think it has more to do with the way it is upgraded rather than the item it is crafted to.


Screenshots for both of these claims, please. You are suggesting something contrary to what everyone else has generated. We like anomalies, but we need to see them to document them!

To be specific ... on Existiential Stalemate I have seen +6 WIS on multiple Weapons and I have seen +4 WIS on multiple items. The anomaly is specific to upgraded Sceptors that both had +4 rather than the expected +6. I don't have screenshots but it was two guildies the same night and I have no reason to doubt either of them. Since these are the first sceptors I have seen upgraded in this manor I am assuming that this is associated with Sceptors and not the way it was upgraded or mysterious circumstances.

CaptGrim
02-28-2008, 11:14 AM
To be specific ... on Existiential Stalemate I have seen +6 WIS on multiple Weapons and I have seen +4 WIS on multiple items. The only anomaly is specific to upgraded Sceptors that both had +4 rather than the expected +6. I don't have screenshots but it was two guildies the same night and I have no reason to doubt either of them. Since these are the first sceptors I have seen upgraded in this manor I am assuming that this is associated with Sceptors and not the way it was upgraded or mysterious circumstances.


http://tbhddo.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=3601#3601


rethinking yet?

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 11:19 AM
http://tbhddo.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=3601#3601

rethinking yet?

Nice!

So that's -OM/+EM?

I wonder if it has to do with an opposition gem being in there.

Edit -- I was going to go -EE/+EE/?EE on my goggles, but I can give up 50 SPs to see if doing -EE/+OM gives a +6 bonus. Hmm, or maybe I'll go +EE/-OM instead.

Mad_Bombardier
02-28-2008, 11:21 AM
http://tbhddo.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=3601#3601Woot, thanks CaptGrim! So, was this newly made since the 6.1 patch, or an old one that was changed?

Jaywade
02-28-2008, 11:21 AM
so a +6 stat on a item how do we do this?
do we know the recipe?

stockwizard5
02-28-2008, 11:23 AM
http://tbhddo.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=3601#3601rethinking yet?

Apparently - is this bugged, changed in 6.1, or is there a working theory? Can someone check an existing +4 Item?

Missing_Minds
02-28-2008, 11:26 AM
Apparently - is this bugged, changed in 6.1, or is there a working theory? Can someone check an existing +4 Item?

That is what I'm wondering myself. did they change the crafting?

Thanks for the screen, capt.

Borror0
02-28-2008, 11:36 AM
I made the change myself on the wiki. If you noticed, only one of the instances changed on the wiki page, not both.

I did, waited for a screenshot to change both.

Inkblack
02-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Something Smithers said on page 74 has me thinking:

Let's say you've done the following:

Tier 1: Positive
Tier 2: Air
Tier 3 (Imbued shard only): Air

Could you then take the Imbued shard and add the 4 ingredients for a Focus of Positive Energy on it without a power source?

THEN add it to the weapon or item?

That way you would not necessarily be getting "air in my lightning". You could potentially have a lot more combinations then (since you could choose from 2 different focus types for the effect, provided the order doesn't matter).

Has anyone tried this? I figure if worse comes to worse, nothing happens. You wouldn't even lose a power cell.

Ink

CaptGrim
02-28-2008, 11:54 AM
Apparently - is this bugged, changed in 6.1, or is there a working theory? Can someone check an existing +4 Item?

It may be a bug, but I doubt it.

Yes I have an ethereal/ethereal set of goggles that is +4wis, double checked them last night for changes.

The item in the SS I posted is material/material and is +6wis

The weapon in the SS posted on page 1 is material/material and is +6wis

Here is a theory...

Material=+6
Ethereal=+4
Mat/Eth=???

weapon or item makes no difference

Angelus_dead
02-28-2008, 12:14 PM
Here is a theory...
Material=+6
Ethereal=+4
Mat/Eth=???
That could be. Notice that the Ethereal effects are usually the ones more useful to spellcasters, so prehaps they compensated by putting the higher wisdom bonus on the Material effects. Material effects have a greater chance to be useful for noncasters too, so it might have been viewed that +6 wis is less valuable to a barb than a cleric.

stockwizard5
02-28-2008, 12:15 PM
Here is a theory...

Material=+6
Ethereal=+4
Mat/Eth=???

weapon or item makes no difference

Sweet Googly Moogly - This would open a HUGE can of crafting worms gadoliniuming the tier 3 possibilities.

Sharzade
02-28-2008, 12:20 PM
Perhaps reading the post above yours. or any of the rest of the thread would answer many questions. Or answers already contained in developer posts. or ddo wiki, or one of several threads or links that have posted successful and failed attempts.

It has been tried and failed at least a half dozen times, and a developer post said there is no effect from that kind of combo.

Ooops look like I've been misunderstood, lol. :D When I say I'd like to try mixing an aspect with an aspect, I'm thinking about whether it's poss to to merge 2 foci into a tier three supreme crystal (making an aspect crystal which can now maybe? react with my existing Mineral aspect). I'm just not giving enough detail in my response to Raidon's crafting to have made that clear for you. Sorry. :) It's fun that players are really trying to figure this out for themselves, I hope we don't get too much help/spoilers in working the crafting system out. The process of discovery is a good thing.

Cheers,

Sharzade
:D :p

Shima-ra
02-28-2008, 12:36 PM
Those +6 wisdom goggles are pretty Uber.

Grimshadow
02-28-2008, 12:41 PM
On goggles
1)Positive/Material/Escalation
2)Negative/Material/Escalation
= +4wisdom etc..

I think its what gem you add that makes it stronger. Maybe its as simple as using the correct the wording, Opposition is what we are doing with neg + pos. At which altar do we put on the opposition on, first or second? And has anyone tried 2 Oppositions? Could it possible get even better? Maybe we could make a 3D map of how correct effects cross planes, maybe there is a way to show them in a line or pattern. Could it be as simple as that... Eldarin or Tolero...little help?

Sharzade
02-28-2008, 12:45 PM
Yes, I also think the gems may be having an effect. Nice to get plus 6 wisdom on an item!

Cheers,

Sharzade
:)

Agarwaen
02-28-2008, 01:02 PM
Here is a theory...

Material=+6
Ethereal=+4
Mat/Eth=???

weapon or item makes no difference

Your theory could be solid, and if so you can mark Mat/Eth as +4. However, have we determined for sure that it isn't going positive before negative that gets you the +6? That is what I was thinking, but I'm starting to forget what I have seen and what I haven't. I really should have been writing all this stuff down. :( Nice that the goggles Capt posted got the "Commander" name as well. Maybe that set has a good shot at getting the Tier 3 bonus. I don't think I will be so lucky on mine considering they aren't even named. I'll be going air/Esc/Eth for the final upgrade (+3 to cha skills).

Just as an aside, if it does turn out to be that going Positive before Negative gets you the "better stalemate", I think its a good bet that going Positive at tier 3 is the way to get the final bonus effect.

Here are my goggles after the second upgrade:
Small: Neg/Esc/Mat
Medium: Pos/Esc/Eth

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6478/exisgogglesupg2mn0.jpg

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 01:04 PM
At which altar do we put on the opposition on, first or second?

The goggles in the screenshot have opposition at the first tier.

Turial
02-28-2008, 01:07 PM
Your theory could be solid, and if so you can mark Mat/Eth as +4. However, have we determined for sure that it isn't going positive before negative that gets you the +6? That is what I was thinking, but I'm starting to forget what I have seen and what I haven't. I really should have been writing all this stuff down. :( Nice that the goggles Capt posted got the "Commander" name as well. Maybe that set has a good shot at getting the Tier 3 bonus. I don't think I will be so lucky on mine considering they aren't even named. I'll be going air/Esc/Eth for the final upgrade (+3 to cha skills).

Just as an aside, if it does turn out to be that going Positive before Negative gets you the "better stalemate", I think its a good bet that going Positive at tier 3 is the way to get the final bonus effect.

Here are my goggles after the second upgrade:
Small: Neg/Esc/Mat
Medium: Pos/Esc/Eth

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6478/exisgogglesupg2mn0.jpg

I think Eladrin said somewhere that if someone went positive as a first upgrade they would have more open to them then say going air. This type of affect may be what we are seeing with the goggles.

Riggs
02-28-2008, 01:10 PM
I wasn't suggesting combining two Foci into a shard. I want to see combining just two foci alone (with an energy cell of course) to create a para or quasi focus which would then be used with a shard as normal.

And again, testing that on the first two altars means nothing. It would make no sense for this to function there, and we've heard from Eladrin that all the altars do not necessarily work the same.

I'm almost certain this is the right area to be investigating. Using a paraelemental or quasielemental focus is the least convoluted way to continue a nonlinear aspect path.

Focus A + Focus B = Focus X may not be the correct formula - it may require a gem and/or essence as well (Earth + Air + Opposition, or Fire + Positive + Dominion, etc) but I'm confident that we should be trying to figure how how to craft a para/quasi focus at the Altar of Devastation.

Indeed.

Cashiry posted a khopesh using a+ b+ a combo, which to date I dont believe had been tried, and no special effect occured. Which suggests the idea is going to involve somehow creating a 'Mineral foci, magma foci' etc. I belive Eladrin also posted, or replied to someone, that you cannot add further imbuments to an imbued shard. So no, 'adding extra foci after the first one' kind of recipes.

Riggs
02-28-2008, 01:29 PM
It seems that one limiting possibility is whether upgrades use all Ethereal or all Material.

The air guard weapon for example had all etherial, and usually people are going material for weapons. Some people are posting mixes of Mat/Eth and often getting lesser or no results, and some seem to get the 3rd tier regardless...

It may be false, as I seem to remember at least some combos with a mixed essence path...but I found it really an unusual pattern that the only weapon with a guard effect was all Eth. Maybe its best 2 out of three?

Just spitballing anyway. But it seems it would be a pretty limiting factor, as if you want a certain type of bonus that is Mat at tier 2 say, and another that is Eth...you are mixing yourself out of a tier 3 upgrade.

Riggs
02-28-2008, 01:35 PM
Ooops look like I've been misunderstood, lol. :D When I say I'd like to try mixing an aspect with an aspect, I'm thinking about whether it's poss to to merge 2 foci into a tier three supreme crystal (making an aspect crystal which can now maybe? react with my existing Mineral aspect). I'm just not giving enough detail in my response to Raidon's crafting to have made that clear for you. Sorry. :) It's fun that players are really trying to figure this out for themselves, I hope we don't get too much help/spoilers in working the crafting system out. The process of discovery is a good thing.

Cheers,

Sharzade
:D :p

Actually the quote above was in reply to a different poster just above yours.

Whether it is a spoiler or no, Eladrin has stated that there is no quasi + para upgrades. So mixing earth/fire/positive would be a quasi and a para mix. Quasi would be earth/positive at 1 and 2 then some kind of earth/pos at 3, and para would be earth/fire and some kind of earth/fire at tier 3.

Coldin
02-28-2008, 01:45 PM
It seems that one limiting possibility is whether upgrades use all Ethereal or all Material.

The air guard weapon for example had all etherial, and usually people are going material for weapons. Some people are posting mixes of Mat/Eth and often getting lesser or no results, and some seem to get the 3rd tier regardless...

It may be false, as I seem to remember at least some combos with a mixed essence path...but I found it really an unusual pattern that the only weapon with a guard effect was all Eth. Maybe its best 2 out of three?

Just spitballing anyway. But it seems it would be a pretty limiting factor, as if you want a certain type of bonus that is Mat at tier 2 say, and another that is Eth...you are mixing yourself out of a tier 3 upgrade.

Interesting thought. I already have a shortsword that I've put Material Dominion Air on at the first two altars. If I ever get all my large ingredients together for a Material+Dominion+Air upgrade, I'll post back my findings. But someone will probably beat me to that long before I'm even half-way done.

Avernus
02-28-2008, 01:46 PM
I went:

1st tier: Pos/Dom/Eth

2nd tier: Neg/Opp/Eth


my goggles are +4 wis. going pos before neg is not enough to make them +6 wis

stockwizard5
02-28-2008, 01:56 PM
Looking through some examples we have

Goggles: MEN/EEP -> +4 and MON/MEP -> +6 so not the Focus (i.e. order of Positive and Negative)
Goggles: MEP/MEN -> +4 and MON/MEP -> +6 so not the Essence

I really hope its not the Gem because that opens up a boatload of permutations.

MDP/MDN +6 (Khopesh)
DE
EDP/EON 4 (Goggles)
MEN/EEP +4 (Goggles), MEP/MEN +4 (Goggles), MEN/MEP +4 (Sceptor)
ED
MEP/MON +4 (Necklace)
MON/MOP +4 (Cloak)
OD
MON/MEP +6 (Goggles), MON/EEP +4 (Bracers)

(edited) Focus/Essence Zoikes ...

SneakThief
02-28-2008, 02:00 PM
Is there a compiled list of all the screen shot links?

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 02:04 PM
Looking through some examples we have

Goggles: MEN/EEP -> +4 and MON/MEP -> +6 so not the Essence (i.e. order of Positive and Negative)
Goggles: MEP/MEN -> +4 and MON/MEP -> +6 so not the Focus

I really hope its not the Gem because that opens up a boatload of permutations.

You've reversed the words "Focus" and "Essence" in your summary. (That is Neg/Pos is the Focus, Mat/Eth is the Essence.)

Grimshadow
02-28-2008, 02:09 PM
I think we have been making it more complicated than it is.

First check this out, http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1074/planesox7.png

This of it like this.
When we imbue a shard, the material or ethereal place it in one of those planes, the fire/earth/air/water place it in a specific spot in this 3D map, the Powering Effect we add, (ie. opposition, dominion or escalation) gives us the direction and purpose to our next location.



Overall Planes ----------------Material----------------------------Ethereal------------

Sub-Planes --------------------Positive----------------------------Positive------------
-------------------------Earth--Fire--Air--Water-------------Earth--Fire--Air--Water
--------------------------------Negative---------------------------Negative------------

Powering Effect -----Dominion-Opposition-Escalation------Dominion-Opposition-Escalation

With that being said, to achieve best effects maybe we have to plot out our path rather than bouncing around. Let me know what you think.

Agarwaen
02-28-2008, 02:10 PM
Well, I did a little digging because this existential stalemate issue is now driving me nuts. I was able to find screenie examples of 5 stalemate items. If anyone out there can dig up a few more, please do, because I think we are really close to figuring this out. Here are the ones I found (all upgrades are in order small, medium, large):

Kargon's Neckamerlace (Only +4 wis)
Pos/Mat/Esc
Neg/Mat/Opp
Fire/Mat/Esc

My goggles (only +4 wis)
Neg/Mat/Esc
Pos/Eth/Esc

GwenJynx's cloak (only +4 wis)
Pos/Mat/Esc
Neg/Mat/Esc

Andareal's goggles (great commander name and +6 wis)
Neg/Mat/Opp
Pos/Mat/Esc

Adrinor's Khopesh (+6 wis)
*****This may not be valid for comparison since it is a weapon. Weapons may always get +6 wis regardless of the ingredients used. Until someone finds an example of a weapon getting only +4 wisdom, we can't know.)*****
Pos/Mat/Dom
Neg/Mat/Dom

Please commence your logical deductions when ready :)

Raidon
02-28-2008, 02:13 PM
It seems that one limiting possibility is whether upgrades use all Ethereal or all Material.

The air guard weapon for example had all etherial, and usually people are going material for weapons. Some people are posting mixes of Mat/Eth and often getting lesser or no results, and some seem to get the 3rd tier regardless...

It may be false, as I seem to remember at least some combos with a mixed essence path...but I found it really an unusual pattern that the only weapon with a guard effect was all Eth. Maybe its best 2 out of three?

Just spitballing anyway. But it seems it would be a pretty limiting factor, as if you want a certain type of bonus that is Mat at tier 2 say, and another that is Eth...you are mixing yourself out of a tier 3 upgrade.


Trusted Friend Has Triple MDA Longsword , I was there when he put the final upgrade on. MDA+MDA+MDA = Air Guard. (Longsword)
No Love there im afraid :(

It would also be nice to get dev confirmation that this isnt a coding bug, because Air Guard on a weapon is totally against any logic....

Finally I would just like to remind people that the weaker upgrade are 3 of the same foci , implying that the para/quasi upgrades (stronger) would probably use more ingredients (16) at the final upgrade and 2 foci..... somehow....the only thing against this is what benefit would be applied? If a Fire and Earth foci were mixed with say Material/Dominion what would one get , the MDF bonus , the MDE bonus or a whole new chart?/

Still time before i can test, so please someone feel free ... we need this eliminated next before any speculations on gem combinations etc etc , imo :)

SneakThief
02-28-2008, 02:19 PM
To be specific ... on Existiential Stalemate I have seen +6 WIS on multiple Weapons and I have seen +4 WIS on multiple items. The anomaly is specific to upgraded Sceptors that both had +4 rather than the expected +6. I don't have screenshots but it was two guildies the same night and I have no reason to doubt either of them. Since these are the first sceptors I have seen upgraded in this manor I am assuming that this is associated with Sceptors and not the way it was upgraded or mysterious circumstances.

Can you get the recipies (or screen shots) from them for recipe comparisons?

Boulderun
02-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Trusted Friend Has Triple MDA Longsword , I was there when he put the final upgrade on. MDA+MDA+MDA = Air Guard. (Longsword)
No Love there im afraid :(

Air Guard on weapons is probably just a bug then. Surprise surprise.

push7
02-28-2008, 02:23 PM
Is improved regeneration items working at all? I made my Great Commander Green Steel Goggles of Wizardry VI with improved regeneration last night, and I have not gotten a single hp healed from it since. PEE/POM. The only thing I can think of why this isn't healing, is because my toon is true neutral and maybe, since the heal effect is good energy, it only heals good alignment? Can anyone confirm tis? The Gms were no help and said file a bug report. If I am right then it would be good for others to know. I play on Ghallanda, and my toon is named Nylrem, if anyone needs to contact me.

SneakThief
02-28-2008, 02:23 PM
Kargon's Neckamerlace (Only +4 wis)
Pos/Mat/Esc
Neg/Mat/Opp
Fire/Mat/Esc

Andareal's goggles (great commander name and +6 wis)
Neg/Mat/Opp
Pos/Mat/Esc


Ouch ... that makes it interesting ...

SneakThief
02-28-2008, 02:26 PM
I think we have been making it more complicated than it is.

First check this out, http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1074/planesox7.png

This of it like this.
When we imbue a shard, the material or ethereal place it in one of those planes, the fire/earth/air/water place it in a specific spot in this 3D map, the Powering Effect we add, (ie. opposition, dominion or escalation) gives us the direction and purpose to our next location.



Overall Planes ----------------Material----------------------------Ethereal------------

Sub-Planes --------------------Positive----------------------------Positive------------
-------------------------Earth--Fire--Air--Water-------------Earth--Fire--Air--Water
--------------------------------Negative---------------------------Negative------------

Powering Effect -----Dominion-Opposition-Escalation------Dominion-Opposition-Escalation

With that being said, to achieve best effects maybe we have to plot out our path rather than bouncing around. Let me know what you think.

Okay ... Opposition is easy to figure out, but which direction are you suggesting for Dom/Esc?

Coldin
02-28-2008, 02:27 PM
Air Guard on weapons is probably just a bug then. Surprise surprise.

Should probably bug report it then. It's kinda wierd that all the other weapons upgrades would have an on-hit effect, while the air one is a guard effect instead.

I wonder if Eladrin is still watching this thread...

Borror0
02-28-2008, 02:27 PM
Ouch ... that makes it interesting ...

Were they both made prepatch?

Big-Dex
02-28-2008, 02:28 PM
Well, I did a little digging because this existential stalemate issue is now driving me nuts. I was able to find screenie examples of 5 stalemate items. If anyone out there can dig up a few more, please do, because I think we are really close to figuring this out. Here are the ones I found (all upgrades are in order small, medium, large):

Kargon's Neckamerlace (Only +4 wis)
Pos/Mat/Esc
Neg/Mat/Opp
Fire/Mat/Esc

My goggles (only +4 wis)
Neg/Mat/Esc
Pos/Eth/Esc

GwenJynx's cloak (only +4 wis)
Pos/Mat/Esc
Neg/Mat/Esc

Andareal's goggles (great commander name and +6 wis)
Neg/Mat/Opp
Pos/Mat/Esc

Adrinor's Khopesh (+6 wis)
*****This may not be valid for comparison since it is a weapon. Weapons may always get +6 wis regardless of the ingredients used. Until someone finds an example of a weapon getting only +4 wisdom, we can't know.)*****
Pos/Mat/Dom
Neg/Mat/Dom

Please commence your logical deductions when ready :)

The only pattern I see is in the GEM - Andareal's goggles went OPP/ESC on the gem in the first two teirs. Kargon's went ESC/OPP. Perhaps the term Escalation needs to be considered literally? Just shooting from the hip here. I know Kargon went ESC on the third teir, but after a stalemate, it might not have the same effect.

~ DEX

SneakThief
02-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Is improved regeneration items working at all? I made my Great Commander Green Steel Goggles of Wizardry VI with improved regeneration last night, and I have not gotten a single hp healed from it since. PEE/POM. The only thing I can think of why this isn't healing, is because my toon is true neutral and maybe, since the heal effect is good energy, it only heals good alignment? Can anyone confirm tis? The Gms were no help and said file a bug report. If I am right then it would be good for others to know. I play on Ghallanda, and my toon is named Nylrem, if anyone needs to contact me.

ateknogod posted there were 2 problems with the regen. One, it didnt work on WF at all ... and two, you had to un-equip and re-equip them to get the regen icon to show up. Have you tried un/re-equip'ing after entering an instance? But yes, I would bug report it either way.

Agarwaen
02-28-2008, 02:38 PM
I think we have been making it more complicated than it is.

First check this out, http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1074/planesox7.png

This of it like this.
When we imbue a shard, the material or ethereal place it in one of those planes, the fire/earth/air/water place it in a specific spot in this 3D map, the Powering Effect we add, (ie. opposition, dominion or escalation) gives us the direction and purpose to our next location.

With that being said, to achieve best effects maybe we have to plot out our path rather than bouncing around. Let me know what you think.

I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying here, but it seems like you are indicating that the gem used determines what ingredients you will use in the next upgrade. I suppose that would mean, for example, if you were using opposition and positive for the first upgrade, you would switch to negative for the next upgrade? Or that if you used escalation and positive you would then use positive again? Is that what you are getting at? I'm still not sure how dominion would fit into the puzzle...would that indicate a switch in Essence (Material vs. Etherial)?

That does sound rather interesting though, and come to think of it, those goggles Andareal made seem to back it up: She used opposition for the first gem, and therefore switched from Negative to Positive. The big question would be what to mix next since she used the escalation gem at tier 2. Would it be Pos/Mat at that point, in order to "escalate" tier 2. Or would she need to "escalate" tier 1, and go Neg/Mat? And then there is the question of which gem to use...perhaps Dominion so that she will have used one of each?

Neat theory, Grim.

SneakThief
02-28-2008, 02:45 PM
Were they both made prepatch?

Well ... Kargon's were a while back. And the post time on the screenshot for the +6 was 9:05 am yesterday. Servers were back up around noon Eastern ... 9 am Pacific ... I would assume it would take at least 30 min or so to get to the end of pt 3 to craft ... 9:30. Im thinking unless it was Alaskan or Hawiian time, it was probably made pre-6.1

Borror0
02-28-2008, 02:50 PM
Well ... Kargon's were a while back. And the post time on the screenshot for the +6 was 9:05 am yesterday. Servers were back up around noon Eastern ... 9 am Pacific ... I would assume it would take at least 30 min or so to get to the end of pt 3 to craft ... 9:30. Im thinking unless it was Alaskan or Hawiian time, it was probably made pre-6.1

*Scratches head*

So I'd guess that Opposition and special mixes well together? In way it's logical since + and - are... well, opposites. The same mgith be observable with Tempered and Balance of Land and Sky?

Missing Minds... what combo you used on your Air/Earth item?

Hence
02-28-2008, 02:54 PM
Pre patch: NOM+POM on cloak = +4 Wisdom for the stalemate, it has nothing to do with Material...

Ill post a SS later tonight.

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 02:56 PM
Were they both made prepatch?

I asked Eladrin about this:


(My Question)

There's some speculation in the crafting thread that some recipes and/or combo-effects may have been altered or added with Module 6.1.

Can you verify whether this is true or false?

(His answer)

The only changes that should have occurred in M6.1 to any of the crafting recipes (other than the Tasty Ham addition to the Stone of Change) should be behind-the-scenes changes for tracking purposes.

Borror0
02-28-2008, 03:06 PM
I asked Eladrin about this:

Good to know.

Missing_Minds
02-28-2008, 03:11 PM
I asked Eladrin about this:

*scratches head* interesting... given that blance 10 was standard and I have balance 11.

Grimshadow
02-28-2008, 03:12 PM
I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying here, but it seems like you are indicating that the gem used determines what ingredients you will use in the next upgrade. I suppose that would mean, for example, if you were using opposition and positive for the first upgrade, you would switch to negative for the next upgrade? Or that if you used escalation and positive you would then use positive again? Is that what you are getting at? I'm still not sure how dominion would fit into the puzzle...would that indicate a switch in Essence (Material vs. Etherial)?

That does sound rather interesting though, and come to think of it, those goggles Andareal made seem to back it up: She used opposition for the first gem, and therefore switched from Negative to Positive. The big question would be what to mix next since she used the escalation gem at tier 2. Would it be Pos/Mat at that point, in order to "escalate" tier 2. Or would she need to "escalate" tier 1, and go Neg/Mat? And then there is the question of which gem to use...perhaps Dominion so that she will have used one of each?

Neat theory, Grim.

You basically got the gist of my theory. There is still alot of gray as to what and when pertaining to foci.
Hence wrote: "Pre patch: NOM+POM on cloak = +4 Wisdom for the stalemate, it has nothing to do with Material..."
If that was correct it would lead me to believe that escalation had something to do with the +6

Agarwaen
02-28-2008, 03:13 PM
Pre patch: NOM+POM on cloak = +4 Wisdom for the stalemate, it has nothing to do with Material...

Ill post a SS later tonight.

Edit: Cross post with Grim. lol

And that also means that +6 vs +4 has not one %$@# thing to do with using an opposition gem in the first upgrade. Man, I'm getting a headache. I would still like to see that screenie though...

I suppose we could still be looking at a requirement of Opposition gem at tier 1 and Escalation at tier 2 to get the +6 wisdom...although I'm beginning to think the bonus difference may well just be a programming snafu.

SneakThief
02-28-2008, 03:14 PM
Pre patch: NOM+POM on cloak = +4 Wisdom for the stalemate, it has nothing to do with Material...

Ill post a SS later tonight.

Double Ouch!

So ....

Kargon's Neckamerlace (Only +4 wis)
Pos/Mat/Esc
Neg/Mat/Opp

Andareal's goggles (great commander name and +6 wis)
Neg/Mat/Opp
Pos/Mat/Esc

Hence's Cloak (+4)
Neg/Mat/Opp
Pos/Mat/Opp

Wow ... So, it would have be specifially Opp then Esc???? Really?

Borror0
02-28-2008, 03:14 PM
If that was correct it would lead me to believe that escalation had something to do with the +6

It'd be logical that Escalation "raises" the bonus to +6.. but it'd be logical that Opposition serves as catalysis to the opposition between negative and positive... or the combo of the two of them at the same time.

Borror0
02-28-2008, 03:16 PM
*scratches head* interesting... given that blance 10 was standard and I have balance 11.

What was the recipe used for your item?

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 03:23 PM
Double Ouch!

So ....

Kargon's Neckamerlace (Only +4 wis)
Pos/Mat/Esc
Neg/Mat/Opp

Andareal's goggles (great commander name and +6 wis)
Neg/Mat/Opp
Pos/Mat/Esc

Hence's Cloak (+4)
Neg/Mat/Opp
Pos/Mat/Opp

Wow ... So, it would have be specifially Opp then Esc???? Really?

Things to check:

-OE/+EE (This would confirm whether Essence matters in this combination)

+OM/-EM (This would confirm whether the order of the focuses matters in this combination)

query
02-28-2008, 03:26 PM
So now we're going on stalemate needs opposition and balance needs escalation somewhere?

Dang it, this just SEEMS that they'd make it simpler after only going Para OR Quasi.

Speaking of simpler (assuming failure like Merida's) anybody try just 5 basic raid ingredients in a shrine for that item's size?

Couldn't hurt a non-entered power cell......

Shima-ra
02-28-2008, 03:31 PM
+6 wisdom is a good item.
Surely someone will try the same recipe again and we will know if it was a fluke.

Grimshadow
02-28-2008, 03:36 PM
Things to check:

-OE/+EE (This would confirm whether Essence matters in this combination)

+OM/-EM (This would confirm whether the order of the focuses matters in this combination)

Seems so.
If this is correct, then what, if anything, happens from having escalation on 2nd when you do 3rd upgrade.

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-28-2008, 03:42 PM
Is there a compiled list of all the screen shot links?

I keep my screenshot archive here (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items)

Garth

Delzon
02-28-2008, 04:16 PM
A guildy made some bracers last night and got the +6 wis on them, he did this.

Blindness Imm, disease Imm - N,O,M
50 spell points +2 cha skills - P,E,,E

I will see if I can get a SS.

Sharzade
02-28-2008, 04:17 PM
Actually the quote above was in reply to a different poster just above yours.

Whether it is a spoiler or no, Eladrin has stated that there is no quasi + para upgrades. So mixing earth/fire/positive would be a quasi and a para mix. Quasi would be earth/positive at 1 and 2 then some kind of earth/pos at 3, and para would be earth/fire and some kind of earth/fire at tier 3.

I'm such a dingaling; sorry about getting the two posts mixed up Riggs. /blush /forgive me ;)

I'm likely to try for the quasi option (earth/pos) at 3 (hoping for Mineral II). Though I wonder if it might be poss to go fire/pos at Tier 3 and have the preexisting mineral aspect combine with radiance to do something funky. I'm dying to hear feedback from anyone that succeeds in making Supreme shards with more than one focus or gem etc.

I'm liking the gradual buildup to whatever the devastation altar processes turn out to be. Plus I'm wondering about whether and under what situations the gem choices or sequence might have bearing on the final product.

For me, spoilers don't come from Devs who are careful in what they say, and are letting us figure raid crafting out for ourselves as a community. :) I'm more worried about secret sources, and wonder if their input is sanctioned by the Devs or whether they're breaking any trust in giving info or hints. Yay to all the great DDO players and guilds that cooperate to nail down the nuances of that last altar! :D

/bow

Sharzade
/hearts and flowers

Gormenghast
02-28-2008, 04:19 PM
I should be going into the shroud tonight and if the loot gods smile upon me and grant me a shard of power I'll be testing the 1:Neg/Mat/Opp, 2:Pos/Mat/Esc on a Necklace and will see if I get a +6 wisdom.

Kambuk
02-28-2008, 04:31 PM
If i can find a group that will let rangers in i will be trying

Neg/Mat/Esc
Pos/Mat/Esc

Have all the components just need to get to the altar...

On goggles.

Kambuk

(My ranger Magzar once managed 60 out of 142 kills by the end of stage 2 on hard and still gets regected for shroud PuG groups looking for 1 more fighter type..)

Aesop
02-28-2008, 04:53 PM
I should be going into the shroud tonight and if the loot gods smile upon me and grant me a shard of power I'll be testing the 1:Neg/Mat/Opp, 2:Pos/Mat/Esc on a Necklace and will see if I get a +6 wisdom.

/uncurse

may the loot be with you

Aesop

Gratch
02-28-2008, 04:53 PM
If i can find a group that will let rangers in i will be trying

Weird... most groups doing 4 (and esp 5) value rangers (or ranged spec toons) right after clerics. Ranging is much more resource efficient and in part 5 especially.... all about resources. With the penalty box removal in stage 2... group composition should really only consider parts 4 and 5.

Why is wisdom the only +6 tier 2 item'able effect. I don't need wisdom... that's what Force of Personality fixes. Quick... someone find out how to get +6 tier 2 of any other stat on items via essence and gem opposition.

Aesop
02-28-2008, 04:53 PM
If i can find a group that will let rangers in i will be trying

Neg/Mat/Esc
Pos/Mat/Esc

Have all the components just need to get to the altar...

On goggles.

Kambuk

(My ranger Magzar once managed 60 out of 142 kills by the end of stage 2 on hard and still gets regected for shroud PuG groups looking for 1 more fighter type..)



/uncurse

May the groups be with you

Aesop

Shade
02-28-2008, 05:02 PM
Here is my sorcerers bracers about the same as Mavnimos except air instead of positive. Airguard knocks down oponents taht attack me for roughly 6 seconds..Roughly 5% chance like other effects. Seems to work against pretty much anythings too, even scorpians and spiders. Or it gives me a 30 second haste - the dodge AC bonus from it stacks, but the attack speed/run speed buff does not. I like em, I prefer it to disruption guard.

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/4590/airguardbracersai5.jpg

Agarwaen
02-28-2008, 05:33 PM
If i can find a group that will let rangers in i will be trying
Neg/Mat/Esc
Pos/Mat/Esc


This may not be important to you at all, but I think it very likely you will only get +4 wisdom. I already tried Neg/Esc/Mat followed by Pos/Esc/Eth. So the only difference between our recipes is in the tier 2 essence. If Delzon's post is accurate (hurry up and post that screenie, will ya!!!), then the essence doesn't appear to be relevant.

For the Stalemate experimenters out there, at this point it looks like Opposition followed by Escalation is required. The only thing someone needs to try is the second combo which Mystic posted above (Pos/Opp/xxx : Neg/Esc/xxx) so that we can determine if the order of foci matters. I guess we also don't know if it is possible to get +6 while using some combination with dominion, unless someone out there can find additional screenshots.

As an aside, I find it very odd that the devs would code this stalemate stuff as: Stalemate weapons always get +6 wisdom, except for scepters of course. Items never get +6 wisdom unless, of course, you use a precise sequence of essences.

That seems awfully bizarre to me.

Ironwind
02-28-2008, 05:34 PM
Has anyone found a weapon combination that definitely provides +6 strength?
All the spreadsheets show +6 strength as unconfirmed.

Borror0
02-28-2008, 05:46 PM
Has anyone found a weapon combination that definitely provides +6 strength?
All the spreadsheets show +6 strength as unconfirmed.


-/E/M is confirmed, not W/E/M

Ironwind
02-28-2008, 06:21 PM
Thanks for the response. :)

Next question, does anyone know the DC for the various Tier 2 Bonus powers? I'm specifically interested in the DC on Destruction (Air/Negative) and Meteor Swarm (Fire/Earth).

Tanka
02-28-2008, 06:27 PM
Thanks for the response. :)

Next question, does anyone know the DC for the various Tier 2 Bonus powers? I'm specifically interested in the DC on Destruction (Air/Negative) and Meteor Swarm (Fire/Earth).

We know the Tier 3 Slay Living Guard (NOE/NOE/NOE) is DC30, and I'm guessing the Greater Disruption Guard is going to be around the same (because if it was the same as Disruption it wouldn't be worth calling it "Greater", now would it?) DC. My guess is that the Tier 2 effects are slightly lower, possibly in the 25-28 range.

Anyone with the Destruction one feel like testing it in PvP on a friend?

Missing_Minds
02-28-2008, 09:24 PM
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh50/missingminds/pn_goggle_p2_mee.jpg

here is the screen cap to show the balance 11 instead of the balance 10 I was expecting.

I did a EAE followed by MEE.

MysticTheurge
02-28-2008, 10:09 PM
A guildy made some bracers last night and got the +6 wis on them, he did this.

Blindness Imm, disease Imm - N,O,M
50 spell points +2 cha skills - P,E,,E

I will see if I can get a SS.

This would indicate that the essence is irrelevant and it's either the -OX/+EX combo or just the Opposition/Escalation combo that matters.

Missing_Minds
02-28-2008, 10:16 PM
This would indicate that the essence is irrelevant and it's either the -OX/+EX combo or just the Opposition/Escalation combo that matters.

I think it has to be material/etheral combo that is the kicker.

The_Cataclysm
02-28-2008, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the response. :)

Next question, does anyone know the DC for the various Tier 2 Bonus powers? I'm specifically interested in the DC on Destruction (Air/Negative) and Meteor Swarm (Fire/Earth).


They are most likely the standard DC for clickies, which would be 10 + spell level + stat bonus (min. stat bonus for casting that spell).

Boulderun
02-28-2008, 10:29 PM
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh50/missingminds/pn_goggle_p2_mee.jpg

here is the screen cap to show the balance 11 instead of the balance 10 I was expecting.

I did a EAE followed by MEE.

My prepatch goggles are EEE//AEE and balance 10.

I can only think that every possible permutation of the green steel items is defined as a unique item, and they just didn't check it for consistency thoroughly enough.

Missing_Minds
02-28-2008, 10:40 PM
My prepatch goggles are EEE//AEE and balance 10.

I can only think that every possible permutation of the green steel items is defined as a unique item, and they just didn't check it for consistency thoroughly enough.

you did etheral etheral on yours. I did etheral material on mine.

Boulderun
02-28-2008, 11:34 PM
It's one whole point of balance skill. If that's an intended divergence, then it is just silly beyond all comprehension.

Failure to QA is a far more reasonable assumption (and has an extremely long track record of accuracy).

Cambo
02-29-2008, 12:01 AM
This may not be important to you at all, but I think it very likely you will only get +4 wisdom. I already tried Neg/Esc/Mat followed by Pos/Esc/Eth. So the only difference between our recipes is in the tier 2 essence. If Delzon's post is accurate (hurry up and post that screenie, will ya!!!), then the essence doesn't appear to be relevant.

For the Stalemate experimenters out there, at this point it looks like Opposition followed by Escalation is required. The only thing someone needs to try is the second combo which Mystic posted above (Pos/Opp/xxx : Neg/Esc/xxx) so that we can determine if the order of foci matters. I guess we also don't know if it is possible to get +6 while using some combination with dominion, unless someone out there can find additional screenshots.

As an aside, I find it very odd that the devs would code this stalemate stuff as: Stalemate weapons always get +6 wisdom, except for scepters of course. Items never get +6 wisdom unless, of course, you use a precise sequence of essences.

That seems awfully bizarre to me.

Its got to be a mistake/code issue has anyone asked the questions of the devs right out ?
+4 vs +6 Wis= mistake IMO perhaps it is fixed and all new recipies are like that now
+10 vs +11 Balance = Mistake IMO
Has anyone asked if the Earth Earth Earth No description but good guard is a mistake ?

Borror0
02-29-2008, 12:06 AM
+4 vs +6 Wis= mistake IMO perhaps it is fixed and all new recipies are like that now.

I doubt it, wasn't mentioned in the WDAs, pre-patch weren't changed... odd.
Either there is a pattern... or it is random.:eek:


+10 vs +11 Balance = Mistake IMO

Possibly a bug, or either a result of using Material versus Ethereal?


Has anyone asked if the Earth Earth Earth No description but good guard is a mistake ?

Not to my knowledge.

Missing_Minds
02-29-2008, 12:20 AM
Its got to be a mistake/code issue has anyone asked the questions of the devs right out ?
+4 vs +6 Wis= mistake IMO perhaps it is fixed and all new recipies are like that now
+10 vs +11 Balance = Mistake IMO
Has anyone asked if the Earth Earth Earth No description but good guard is a mistake ?

If you noticed the +4 vs +6 was also an etheral material combo difference.

Could it be a mistake? maybe. Do we know for a fact? nope.

good guard of earth earth earth not showing up in the description is a goof. I think it was eladrin that stated as such.

*edit* found it. It was only stated 10 days ago. *wish my memory worked for school as well as it does this stuff.*
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1574379#post1574379

geoffhanna
02-29-2008, 01:07 AM
But I noted you do not have an example of my recipe in the image list (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/).

I used Material + Escalation + Air twice. I intend to do it again, unless Air/Air/Fire yields something better than Air Guard.

http://www.hannasolutions.com/DDO/tier2goggles.JPG

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-29-2008, 01:48 AM
I'm going to be running several tests in the altar of devestation to ensure that no ingredients are wasted and all the possibilities are tested. Here is what I'll be doing:

I ran all of these tests tonight. Here are the results:



* Create Superior Focus of Positive Energy (1 cell)
* Create Superior Focus of Earth (1 cell)
* Create Flawless Gem of Opposition (1 cell)
* Create Pure Essence of Ethereal (1 cell)


All as predicted.


focus of earth, focus of positive, cell (1 cell)
Did not work. Cell consumed.


empty shard, focus of earth, cell (1 cell)
(updated) Did not work. Cell consumed.


empty shard, focus of earth, focus of earth, gem, essence (no cells)
Did not work. As suspected, every shavarrath transformation needs a power cell, but it's good to eliminate this theory.


empty shard, pos focus, earth focus, cell(1 cell)
did not work, cell consumed.


empty shard, pos focus, earth focus, essence, cell (1 cell)
did not work, cell consumed.


empty shard, pos focus, earth focus, gem, cell (1 cell)
did not work, cell consumed.


empty shard, pos focus, gem, essence, cell(1 cell)
Worked as predicted: result imbued shard of power (pos/opp/eth)


imbued shard, focus of earth, cell (1 cell)
Did not work, cell consumed.

Kargon then offered up his gem of escalation and ethereal essence and I was able to try:


imbued shard, focus of earth, gem of escalation, ethereal essence, cell (1 cell)
did not work, cell consumed. Gave ingredients back to Kargon.


imbued shard, focus of earth, weapon, cell (1 cell)
did not work, cell consumed. Interestingly the machine didn't 'pick and chose' the right ingredients from this potentially valid recipe - it just rejected it.

This leaves only a few options I see:


Make another shard with the focus of earth, another gem and another essence. Combine this shard with the first shard to make a super-shard. Combine this super-shard with weapon.
Make another shard with the focus of earth, another gem and another essence. Combine green steel weapon with both shards to imbue both at the same time. However, Eladrin has said that this shouldn't work.
I'm totally barking up the wrong tree - I should have just put my imbued shard into my weapon and hoped pos/earth/pos would have worked, or perhaps the upgrade for mineral is just one of the other elements and we just need to guess it.
There is some interaction with gems and essences that we don't understand yet and that was making my combinations not work in the machine.


Eladrin - if you're reading this any help would be appreciated! :)

Anyway - I thank my guildies again for the donations of large ingredients and hope this helps the furthering of knowledge for everyone else.

Garth

Riggs
02-29-2008, 02:16 AM
I ran all of these tests tonight. Here are the results:

This leaves only a few options I see:


Make another shard with the focus of earth, another gem and another essence. Combine this shard with the first shard to make a super-shard. Combine this super-shard with weapon
Make another shard with the focus of earth, another gem and another essence. Combine green steel weapon with both shards to imbue both at the same time. However, Eladrin has said that this shouldn't work.
I'm totally barking up the wrong tree - I should have just put my imbued shard into my weapon and hoped pos/earth/pos would have worked, or perhaps the upgrade for mineral is just one of the other elements and we just need to guess it.
There is some interaction with gems and essences that we don't understand yet and that was making my combinations not work in the machine.


Garth

I noticed that you tried 2 foci with no cell, but that the 2 foci were both earth. Did you also try the same idea but with pos and earth and no cell?

Tomalon
02-29-2008, 02:24 AM
I ran all of these tests tonight. Here are the results:



All as predicted.


Did not work. Cell consumed.


Did not work. As suspected, every shavarrath transformation needs a power cell, but it's good to eliminate this theory.


did not work, cell consumed.


did not work, cell consumed.


did not work, cell consumed.


Worked as predicted: result imbued shard of power (pos/opp/eth)


Did not work, cell consumed.

Kargon then offered up his gem of escalation and ethereal essence and I was able to try:


did not work, cell consumed. Gave ingredients back to Kargon.


did not work, cell consumed. Interestingly the machine didn't 'pick and chose' the right ingredients from this potentially valid recipe - it just rejected it.

This leaves only a few options I see:


Make another shard with the focus of earth, another gem and another essence. Combine this shard with the first shard to make a super-shard. Combine this super-shard with weapon
Make another shard with the focus of earth, another gem and another essence. Combine green steel weapon with both shards to imbue both at the same time. However, Eladrin has said that this shouldn't work.
I'm totally barking up the wrong tree - I should have just put my imbued shard into my weapon and hoped pos/earth/pos would have worked, or perhaps the upgrade for mineral is just one of the other elements and we just need to guess it.
There is some interaction with gems and essences that we don't understand yet and that was making my combinations not work in the machine.


Eladrin - if you're reading this any help would be appreciated! :)

Anyway - I thank my guildies again for the donations of large ingredients and hope this helps the furthering of knowledge for everyone else.

Garth

I dont see anywhere where you try to imbue the shard with just a focus 1st. maybe you did and just forgot to post or i missed it. Anyway nice job in clearing some of this up. a step in the right direction. *cheers*

SneakThief
02-29-2008, 03:10 AM
n/m

Sharzade
02-29-2008, 03:41 AM
I suppose we could try adding only gems to firstly an unimbued shard, and then to an imbued shard. Then the same could be tried with essences only, and then for a combination of gems and essences. Perhaps thinking that foci are key in all steps is where this altar is different. Wow, things are looking confusing. I'm probably wrong, but what the hey :p

It's super that you did all those experiments tonight, Willphase! Way to go!!!! :D :D

Cheers,

Sharzade
;)

maddmatt70
02-29-2008, 04:32 AM
I made a khopesh

Phase 1: E + E + E
Phase 2: A + E + E
Phase 3: A + E + E

No special attribute...

We also tried a ton of different combination like willphase did above.. We made a superior focus of earth as well as the air and tried combining the Air and Earth in different combinations with the escalation, ethereal, the shard, and the weapon but nothing was discovered..

Also reporting a balance +11 with it as well instead of the +10..

Angelus_dead
02-29-2008, 04:40 AM
They are most likely the standard DC for clickies, which would be 10 + spell level + stat bonus (min. stat bonus for casting that spell).
Sadly no. It's a well-known bug that DDO doesn't obey the D&D rules for the DC of a magic item.

In DDO magic items have a DC of 10 + spell level, not 10 + spell level * 1.5 as mandated by the rule books. In the case of an 8th or 9th level spell such as Meteor, the DC is 4 less than it should be. That's like giving the monsters a free Greater Heroism for the purpose of resisting it.

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 06:47 AM
Sadly no. It's a well-known bug that DDO doesn't obey the D&D rules for the DC of a magic item.

In DDO magic items have a DC of 10 + spell level, not 10 + spell level * 1.5 as mandated by the rule books. In the case of an 8th or 9th level spell such as Meteor, the DC is 4 less than it should be. That's like giving the monsters a free Greater Heroism for the purpose of resisting it.

Wait, what?

Where do you get 10 + Spell Level * 1.5?

The DC is 10 + Spell Level + Min Stat Mod to cast that spell level

And I've seen this to be true of every spell I've seen used via item in this game. . .

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 07:19 AM
I think it has to be material/etheral combo that is the kicker.

The first set of goggles posted with +6 wis were material/material.


Its got to be a mistake/code issue has anyone asked the questions of the devs right out ?

I asked Eladrin, he said he'd forward the question to Piloto.


Make another shard with the focus of earth, another gem and another essence. Combine green steel weapon with both shards to imbue both at the same time. However, Eladrin has said that this shouldn't work.

Eladrin has said that there are no recipes that involved a green steel weapons and two or more shards.


Where do you get 10 + Spell Level * 1.5?

The DC is 10 + Spell Level + Min Stat Mod to cast that spell level

That's the same thing. The minimum stat modifier to cast a spell is 0.5*the spell level (rounded down). Therefore Spell Level + Min Stat Mod is equal to 1.5*Spell level.

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 07:24 AM
That's the same thing. The minimum stat modifier to cast a spell is 0.5*the spell level (rounded down). Therefore Spell Level + Min Stat Mod is equal to 1.5*Spell level.
Eh. My problem with that is the fact that it now seems like an entirely different mechanic for figuring out spell DC for items than it is for a spellcasters' own spells.

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 07:25 AM
Eh. My problem with that is the fact that it now seems like an entirely different mechanic for figuring out spell DC for items than it is for a spellcasters' own spells.

Yes, it's probably not the best way to describe the equation, but it still is accurate.

EspyLacopa
02-29-2008, 07:31 AM
Yes, it's probably not the best way to describe the equation, but it still is accurate.
Granted, I was taught not to think in Abbreviations. . .so that may have something do with it as well.

Missing_Minds
02-29-2008, 07:31 AM
The first set of goggles posted with +6 wis were material/material.


I must have missed that one completely. However, given the fact that that madmatt's post, yeah, I'm leaning towards they goofed in the tables.

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 08:02 AM
I have a theory on the +6 wisdom on items, and if someone wants to slog through old screenshots and disprove it, that's fine.

What if just having Opposition on the second tier of a Pos/Neg combo is what matters?

stockwizard5
02-29-2008, 08:05 AM
Compiled ...

MDP/MDN +6 (Khopesh)
DE
EDP/EON +4 (Goggles)
MEN/EEP +4 (Goggles), MEP/MEN +4 (Goggles), MEN/MEP +4 (Sceptor)
ED
MEP/MON +4 (Necklace), MEP/EON +6 (Morningstar)
MON/MOP +4 (Cloak)
OD
MON/MEP +6 (Goggles), MON/EEP +6 (Bracers)

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 08:10 AM
Compiled ...

MDP/MDN +6 (Khopesh)
DE
EDP/EON +4 (Goggles)
MEN/EEP +4 (Goggles), MEP/MEN +4 (Goggles), MEN/MEP +4 (Sceptor)
ED
MEP/MON +4 (Necklace)
MON/MOP +4 (Cloak)
OD
MON/MEP +6 (Goggles), MON/EEP +6 (Bracers)

You've got a +4 where you mean to have a +6.

(And, duh, ignore my last post. Too early in the morning.)

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-29-2008, 08:33 AM
I noticed that you tried 2 foci with no cell, but that the 2 foci were both earth. Did you also try the same idea but with pos and earth and no cell?

I did try this (shard + pos focus + earth focus + cell). This failed.


I dont see anywhere where you try to imbue the shard with just a focus 1st. maybe you did and just forgot to post or i missed it. Anyway nice job in clearing some of this up. a step in the right direction. *cheers*

Yes, I also tried Shard + 1 focus + cell and that didn't work either. It was up too late last night! :)

Garth

stockwizard5
02-29-2008, 09:31 AM
I made a khopesh

Phase 1: E + E + E
Phase 2: A + E + E
Phase 3: A + E + E

No special attribute...



This is very bad - we are running out of ideas for 3rd upgrade bonuses.

Between this and the +4/+6 WIS thing I think we are missing something important.

juniorpfactors
02-29-2008, 09:32 AM
[QUOTE=maddmatt70;1590149]I made a khopesh

Phase 1: E + E + E
Phase 2: A + E + E
Phase 3: A + E + E

No special attribute...

[QUOTE]

This is very bad - we are running out of ideas for 3rd upgrade bonuses.

Between this and the +4/+6 WIS thing I think we are missing somehtin gimportant.


maels your cleric is so ugly that you better find the answer so you can make a +6 wis helmet to cover her fire red dwarf head...get to work

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 09:34 AM
This is very bad - we are running out of ideas for 3rd upgrade bonuses.

Between this and the +4/+6 WIS thing I think we are missing something important.

My money's on the "Gems and/or Essences matter" theory.

Missing_Minds
02-29-2008, 09:40 AM
My money's on the "Gems and/or Essences matter" theory.

my bet is to actually make a globe/dice out of the planer map that was posted.

roll it around until we get fed up.

weight it decently and peg the local household animal with it in frustration when the animal is caught doing something wrong.

Watch as inspiration hits us as the map hits them during their yelp, meow, squawk, chirp of surprise/pain.

use said inspiration to get a new cup of coffee and start pondering again. ;)

squiddaddy
02-29-2008, 10:40 AM
There are screenshots of two items with the same recipe and different results. assuming there wasn't an update to it
there are a few things that may be affecting the crafting.

1) difficulty level
2) ingredients used in the greensteel creation
3) order ingredients are inserted

1) seems plausible, can anyone that has a +6 wisdom or 11 balance item confirm the difficulty they were created on?
3) not likely.
2) has some merit perhaps, seems pretty messy to use a mechanic that becomes 'invisible'

there are 6 foci and 6 ingredients at each stage, 6 locations for vale ingredients(5 quests+vale), each yielding 2 types.
12 total required at all stages. any numerologists about?
is it possible that ingredients are linked to foci?

for the record I don't like the way all this speulation is going. Would they really create a system where you get pigeonholed into 3 particular upgrades to get some later bonus? surely the point of a crafting system is to get to pick and mix. I personally still feel we are missing a special recipe.

edit:
oh yeah about the idea of the combinations somehow being positional.
domination = pure element
escalation = move from material to ethereal or vice versa
opposition = swap to opposite element (pos/neg, earth/air, fire/water, are the only opposites?)

tier 1 determines what you use at tier 2 to keep your item at maximum potential?

Boulderun
02-29-2008, 10:46 AM
I did try this (shard + pos focus + earth focus + cell). This failed.

Did you try pos focus + earth focus + cell with no shard?

Cowdenicus
02-29-2008, 10:52 AM
One of the uber recipes was discovered...... that is all the info I have for you at this time.

stockwizard5
02-29-2008, 11:13 AM
MEP/MON +4 (Necklace), MEP/EON +6 (Morningstar)

My head hurts :eek:

Borror0
02-29-2008, 11:20 AM
maels your cleric is so ugly that you better find the answer so you can make a +6 wis helmet to cover her fire red dwarf head...get to work

/signed

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-29-2008, 11:23 AM
Did you try pos focus + earth focus + cell with no shard?

Yes. That didn't work either :(

When I have more time (I'm at work at the moment) I'll update my original post to reflect the ones I forgot to put up.

Garth

Borror0
02-29-2008, 11:27 AM
My head hurts :eek:

Maybe the same recipe acts differently on accessories and on weapons...:confused:

Missing_Minds
02-29-2008, 12:02 PM
The shroud run was normal for my goggles with balance 11 on it. However, I will also state (and I doubt this matters) both upgrades to the blank happened in the same run.

RioRussell
02-29-2008, 12:03 PM
One of the uber recipes was discovered...... that is all the info I have for you at this time.

LOL no suspense allowed... after all this is what the 1600th post ? If you aren't careful this is going to turn into a long thread...

Spill the beans cow :D

Big-Dex
02-29-2008, 12:17 PM
Cmon Cow ... get the info PLZ... figuring this is out is getting as bad as running Coalescence on elite on my WF with a party of first timers!! I am starting to think the Coalescence option is lookin better and better the more time I spend on this thread...

/beg
/plead
/grovel

INFO now please!

jjflanigan
02-29-2008, 12:29 PM
I didn't see this on your list -- did you try making the two imbued shards (i.e. positive and earth) and combining those 2 shards + power cell + empty shard to make a new shard that combines the other two into it?

Eladrin
02-29-2008, 12:39 PM
Existential Stalemate should be granting a +6 enhancement bonus to Wisdom on both weapons and accessories now.

We'll be adding a new Stone of Change recipe in M7 that will upgrade currently existing items with the +4 Wisdom bonus and will convert it into a +6 bonus.

Mad_Bombardier
02-29-2008, 12:41 PM
Existential Stalemate should be granting a +6 enhancement bonus to Wisdom on both weapons and accessories now.

We'll be adding a new Stone of Change recipe in M7 that will upgrade currently existing items with the +4 Wisdom bonus and will convert it into a +6 bonus.Cool! :D WIS+6 goggles for my Cleric, here I come!

Now, what about Balance of Land and Sky now offering +11 instead of the old +10?

stockwizard5
02-29-2008, 12:42 PM
maels your cleric is so ugly that you better find the answer so you can make a +6 wis helmet to cover her fire red dwarf head...get to work

But my Mom tells me I'm pretty?

Borror0
02-29-2008, 12:44 PM
But my Mom tells me I'm pretty?

Lies!

stockwizard5
02-29-2008, 12:44 PM
Existential Stalemate should be granting a +6 enhancement bonus to Wisdom on both weapons and accessories now.

We'll be adding a new Stone of Change recipe in M7 that will upgrade currently existing items with the +4 Wisdom bonus and will convert it into a +6 bonus.

Holy permutations Batman - saved from expanding my spreadsheets to 46,000+ entries :eek:


Apparently - is this a) bugged, b) changed in 6.1, or c) is there a working theory? Can someone check an existing +4 Item?

Looks like a and b - I can get back to gaming now :D

Vhlad
02-29-2008, 12:50 PM
Single Foci Tier 3 Effects
Positive + Positive + Positive = Wpn: Greater Disruption (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1568874&postcount=803) -:- Item: Greater Disruption Guard (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1558476&postcount=489)
Air + Air + Air = Wpn: Air Guard (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1579381&postcount=1279) -:- Item:


Is there air + air + air on an item yet ?

I'm deciding between positive or air for the +sp, +cha skills equipment, and I'd really like to know what air + air + air on an item is.
I know it's air guard on a weapon...

stockwizard5
02-29-2008, 12:52 PM
Is there air + air + air on an item yet ?

I'm deciding between positive or air for the +sp, +cha skills equipment, and I'd really like to know what air + air + air on an item is.
I know it's air guard on a weapon...

yes - there is a confirmed Air Guard on an item EEA/EEA/EEA ...

Tallyn
02-29-2008, 12:54 PM
Is there air + air + air on an item yet ?

I'm deciding between positive or air for the +sp, +cha skills equipment, and I'd really like to know what air + air + air on an item is.
I know it's air guard on a weapon...

Almost certainly Air guard on an item as well....

Vhlad
02-29-2008, 12:57 PM
yes - there is a confirmed Air Guard on an item EEA/EEA/EEA ...

seems odd to have "air guard" on both weapon and item. Maybe they'll change that o_O.
I doubt air guard from 2 different slots will stack (i.e. make separate rolls).
I'll have to go scepter air and bracers positive to be optimal.

Missing_Minds
02-29-2008, 12:58 PM
Is there air + air + air on an item yet ?

I'm deciding between positive or air for the +sp, +cha skills equipment, and I'd really like to know what air + air + air on an item is.
I know it's air guard on a weapon...

yes, there has been. you have to go back several pages.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1581169&postcount=1342

Riggs
02-29-2008, 12:59 PM
I did try this (shard + pos focus + earth focus + cell). This failed.



Yes, I also tried Shard + 1 focus + cell and that didn't work either. It was up too late last night! :)

Garth

Well that sucks.

It seemed like it might be a logical route....

Cant do multiple shards, cant do multiple foci....so where is this Magma II coming from?

Riggs
02-29-2008, 01:00 PM
One of the uber recipes was discovered...... that is all the info I have for you at this time.

tease.

Tallyn
02-29-2008, 01:01 PM
Has anyone tried an Opposition(Tier 1), Escalation(Tier 2), Dominion(Tier 3) item yet?

Or some variant of that order including all three of the different types

Angelus_dead
02-29-2008, 01:09 PM
Has anyone tried an Opposition(Tier 1), Escalation(Tier 2), Dominion(Tier 3) item yet?
It's interesting to try finding a correspondence between the names of those gems and the names of the altars. In order, the altars are Invasion, Subjugation, and Devastation.

Subjugation and Dominion are very close to each other, while Invasion and Escalation have a vague similarity. Opposition and Devastation are the leftovers, but they're a longshot.

Sanadil
02-29-2008, 01:21 PM
I would think:

Invasion would be Opposition, polar opposites would be bitter enemies always fighting one another.
Subjugation would be Dominion, Dominating another into Subjugation.
Devastation would be Escalation, Escalating something to higher levels of power, making it more "Devastating"

Hence
02-29-2008, 01:23 PM
I think the items were just bugged, thats why we haven't seen anything good yet.
With the update, we should be seeing the effects that were missing. It probably is not as complicated as we thought, Gems probably don't mean anything in the upgrade process.

Cmon Cow... we need to know what crazy uber effects we can achieve!!

Tallyn
02-29-2008, 01:25 PM
Just a thought.... What if the other names have something to do with possible hidden recipes?

I.e. Elements are Fire/Water/Air/Earth.... these would be Material...
Positive/Negative are not Materials.... so these would be Ethereal...

If you are building something, maybe the interaction between the elements you are using has something to do with it as well....

Positive Opposes Negative... maybe Opposition needs to be in there either in between Pos and Neg, or with them... with the same going for opposing elements...

If you go straight three, maybe escalation, escalation, dominion? You are increasing the power x2, until you have dominion over the element?

Anyways, just some random thoughts that maybe someone will be able to make use of

Borror0
02-29-2008, 01:25 PM
Cmon Cow... we need to know what crazy uber effects we can achieve!!

It's probably something lame. Everything seems uber to Cow, 'cause Vanash is such a gimp.;)

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-29-2008, 01:27 PM
I didn't see this on your list -- did you try making the two imbued shards (i.e. positive and earth) and combining those 2 shards + power cell + empty shard to make a new shard that combines the other two into it?

No - and I think this is the way to go. I'm not sure I'm going to need a 3rd empty shard though - I think they will probably just 'combine' with the power cell.

I just need 4 more large ingredients to test this theory - hopefully they will materialise.

Garth

Mad_Bombardier
02-29-2008, 01:37 PM
I didn't see this on your list -- did you try making the two imbued shards (i.e. positive and earth) and combining those 2 shards + power cell + empty shard to make a new shard that combines the other two into it?I sure hope not. Or at least, if this is the case, those upgrades better be super über. You can use just one Shard of Supreme Power for a pretty useful "pure energy/element" effect. I can't see using 3 Shards of Supreme Power for the same types of effect (maybe 2 shards for similar effect). I dunno, maybe that's just me.

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 01:42 PM
I sure hope not. Or at least, if this is the case, those upgrades better be super über. You can use just one Shard of Supreme Power for a pretty useful "pure energy/element" effect. I can't see using 3 Shards of Supreme Power for the same types of effect (maybe 2 shards for similar effect). I dunno, maybe that's just me.

I'm still curious whether imbued Great Shards of Power fit in the Altar of Devestation.

If I was going to make people combine things, you'd have to take two smaller ones to make the bigger one. Not two bigger ones to make one of the same size as either of the two originals.

juniorpfactors
02-29-2008, 01:49 PM
so anyone have a reliable formula to build wiz 6/ spell+50 spell +100 with ex stalemate +6wis Item...if so...what are your suggestions

N esc ether
P esc ether ????

SneakThief
02-29-2008, 01:54 PM
I'm still curious whether imbued Great Shards of Power fit in the Altar of Devestation.

If I was going to make people combine things, you'd have to take two smaller ones to make the bigger one. Not two bigger ones to make one of the same size as either of the two originals.
Definatley much easier to test

Dane_McArdy
02-29-2008, 02:10 PM
But my Mom tells me I'm pretty?

Isn't your mom the one that drinks alot?

maddmatt70
02-29-2008, 02:11 PM
Did you try pos focus + earth focus + cell with no shard?

We tried an earth focus + air focus + cell with no shard and with a shard and with just the weapon and with and without a shard and or an energy cell and after we upgraded it with air then tried earth focus. We also tried combining earth and air with some of the other elements with and without energy cells, shards, well we tried nearly everything that we could think of...

Either you create a new shard upgrade it and combine it with the weapon that you already upgraded or with another upgraded shard or there is some combination type that works...

Thus far from what I can tell people have tried something like an air + air + positive or air + earth + positive, but nobody has tried something like an air + earth + fire and there are a few other combinations types that people haven't tried maybe one of them will work..

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 02:13 PM
so anyone have a reliable formula to build wiz 6/ spell+50 spell +100 with ex stalemate +6wis Item...if so...what are your suggestions

N esc ether
P esc ether ????

I'm probably going -EE/+EE/?EE (now that we know all existential stalemates are +6 wisdom).

The third tier will depend on what we find out about special combos.

This gives me:

300 spell points
+2 to charisma skills
+1 to intelligence skills
+6 wisdom
+10 haggle
+10 diplomacy

And whatever effects (other than SP) come from the third tier EE and whatever combo effect third tier Existential Stalemate gives.

juniorpfactors
02-29-2008, 03:32 PM
I'm probably going -EE/+EE/?EE (now that we know all existential stalemates are +6 wisdom).

The third tier will depend on what we find out about special combos.

This gives me:

300 spell points
+2 to charisma skills
+1 to intelligence skills
+6 wisdom
+10 haggle
+10 diplomacy

And whatever effects (other than SP) come from the third tier EE and whatever combo effect third tier Existential Stalemate gives.

agreed....but ofcourse this may not give us +6 now... we may have to wait till mod 7 which might be 2-3 months from now

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 03:43 PM
agreed....but ofcourse this may not give us +6 now... we may have to wait till mod 7 which might be 2-3 months from now

Eladrin made it sound like all Existential Stalemate items from now on will produce +6, but any that were made previously at +4 would eventually be upgradable to +6.

Since I haven't made mine yet, that would mean I'm in the clear.

Nataichal
02-29-2008, 04:01 PM
I remember reading something about the Blast effects being changed. That they were supposed to do damage on a natural 20 AND extra damage on criticals. Has this been implemented? Do we know the exact nature of what the damage is supposed to be?

Borror0
02-29-2008, 04:10 PM
Has this been implemented?

It's in the WDAs at least.


Do we know the exact nature of what the damage is supposed to be?

Never seen someone post what it is exactly.

woodspider
02-29-2008, 05:21 PM
Can we add that the regeneration effect do not effect WF unless they have 100%+ to healing, I.E. enhancments healers friend, finger necklace, that one docent.

Angelus_dead
02-29-2008, 05:39 PM
I remember reading something about the Blast effects being changed. That they were supposed to do damage on a natural 20 AND extra damage on criticals. Has this been implemented? Do we know the exact nature of what the damage is supposed to be?
I'm told the blast effects give you 4d6 on any crit, and another 20 damage on crits of natural 20. Not a highly reliable source though.

jjflanigan
02-29-2008, 05:40 PM
I sure hope not. Or at least, if this is the case, those upgrades better be super über. You can use just one Shard of Supreme Power for a pretty useful "pure energy/element" effect. I can't see using 3 Shards of Supreme Power for the same types of effect (maybe 2 shards for similar effect). I dunno, maybe that's just me.

Thinking more about it, I'd wager you just take the two fully imbued shards and stick them in the altar with a 3rd energy cell. Would be silly to require a 3rd shard when basically you just want to "fuse" the two together.

Kargon
02-29-2008, 06:05 PM
One of the uber recipes was discovered...... that is all the info I have for you at this time.

For the love of tasty ham, POST A SCREENMASHOT! Kargon going insane at kargon work and then kargon log onto forums and see somemabody claim figure at least one combinimatimion out, only to tease kargon, at this rate kargon going to claw own eyemaballs out!!!

(This freakout brought to silly forums by overmer 2 weeks of kargon spendaming 8 hours a day playing a horsemariding game on a handmaheld systamem geared towards 6 year old girls. no, kargon are not a 6 year old girl. please return to regulamar schedumuled craftaming discussimion.)

Raidon
02-29-2008, 06:09 PM
An acid Blast weapon is sheathed in corrosive acid. Critical hits with this weapon deal an additional 1d10 acid damage for weapons with a x2 critical multiplier, 2d10 for a x3 critical multiplier, and 3d10 for a x4 multiplier. Additionally, if you roll a natural 20 when attacking and confirm the critical hit, the weapon blasts your target, doing 4d6 more acid damage. :)

Ikuryo
02-29-2008, 07:11 PM
So a solid acid weapon with a x2 crit multiplier does +1d6 +1d6 + 1d10 + 1d10 + 4d6 on a confirmed natural 20? With higher crit multipliers increasing the 1d10s to 2d10 or 3d10?

Cowdenicus
02-29-2008, 08:09 PM
I will see if I can get more info about it....... but I have been accused of sniffing around for info too much as is.

binnsr
02-29-2008, 08:12 PM
I will see if I can get more info about it....... but I have been accused of sniffing around for info too much as is.

umm... if you don't 'sniff around' for info, how else are we supposed to get it? Or did you fly out to Boston and hang out in the Turbine parkinglot, pestering devs? that might be a bit overboard :D

Cowdenicus
02-29-2008, 08:14 PM
umm... if you don't 'sniff around' for info, how else are we supposed to get it? Or did you fly out to Boston and hang out in the Turbine parkinglot, pestering devs? that might be a bit overboard :D

I thought about waiting in the parking lot dressing like a hobo with a sign saying will work for crafting recipes....... but decided against it.

Naso24
02-29-2008, 09:15 PM
Whoever found the uber recipe should share it with the community, since so many have put great effort into putting together combination lists, which were surely relied upon to get to tier 3 special.

oronisi
02-29-2008, 09:48 PM
Whoever found the uber recipe should share it with the community, since so many have put great effort into putting together combination lists, which were surely relied upon to get to tier 3 special.

Instead, they are probably coveting the recipe keeping it only for themselves and thinking of how great they are. Of course since Cow confirmed that it isn't his own item or his own finding, I'm not inclined to believe it even exists.

Ilandrya
02-29-2008, 10:36 PM
Kargon, I remember awhile back you said you had died several times from the healing amplification... if memory serves me you said you were healing up with food at an inn at the time... is that correct? If so, that the problem is not a simple issue of a misplaced -/+ in the coding, because to die while being healed from food at an inn, the item would have to be damaging you at a rate higher than the healing you are receiving... that doesn't equate to the 10/20/30% amplification rate.

Also, someone else reported that regeneration items have to be unequpped and reequipped in each instance now in order for the icon to appear. Does the item still perform it's job without the icon (a display issue), or does the item not function at all unless you do this? Also, is this problem as of 6.1? To the WF who are having an issue with regen not functioning unless you have 100% or greater to incoming heals, is this as of 6.1, or before.. or is that unknown?

Ilandrya
02-29-2008, 10:45 PM
There is an individual on my server who claimed about a week back while I was in a party with him that he had broken the puzzle for third upgrade "bonuses". I didn't pressure him for info because I figure if he wished to share it, he would. Perhaps he's merely waiting until he's absolutely certain that he's solved it and it wasn't a fluke or bug before he shares it. I don't know him to know. He is a forum "regular" and aware of the crafting threads though. (It's likely Cow, that you and I speak of the same person.)

MysticTheurge
02-29-2008, 11:22 PM
Kargon, I remember awhile back you said you had died several times from the healing amplification... if memory serves me you said you were healing up with food at an inn at the time... is that correct? If so, that the problem is not a simple issue of a misplaced -/+ in the coding, because to die while being healed from food at an inn, the item would have to be damaging you at a rate higher than the healing you are receiving... that doesn't equate to the 10/20/30% amplification rate.

Instead of "NewHealing = Healing * 1.3" someone put "NewHealing = Healing * -1.3"

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-29-2008, 11:36 PM
Instead of "NewHealing = Healing * 1.3" someone put "NewHealing = Healing * -1.3"

This is now fixed, which is rather disappointing really, because now I can't kill Kargon in the tavern by casting cure critical wounds on him.

Garth

Ilandrya
03-01-2008, 12:22 AM
Instead of "NewHealing = Healing * 1.3" someone put "NewHealing = Healing * -1.3"

That formula would explain it. = )


Eladrin, I know you have commented previously about the confusion on Wis +4/+6 on an accessory, but can you confirm what was fixed/altered but not in the release notes in order to minimize confusion please? Just on green steel items/effects we are already aware of, not things that have not been reported yet. Thank you.

Kargon
03-01-2008, 01:26 AM
That formula would explain it. = )


Eladrin, I know you have commented previously about the confusion on Wis +4/+6 on an accessory, but can you confirm what was fixed/altered but not in the release notes in order to minimize confusion please? Just on green steel items/effects we are already aware of, not things that have not been reported yet. Thank you.

Kargon can personamally confirm that the 30% healamalling amplimification is fixed like garth say. and even seems to stack with kargon 30% human improved healamalling enhancemaments. kargon realamally like it so far :)

Now kargon considermering making greater regen item for that charactermeremer, see if it gets doubled by having more than 50% bonus to healamalling.

CaseStringer
03-01-2008, 02:21 AM
I agree that if someone has found a way to get one of the non-conventional tier3 upgrade paths figured out, they should surely post their findings here with the community that likely helped out in some point in their crafting process. Oh well... Keep up the good work people. We'll crack it pretty soon!...See everyone on Sunday @ the Par-Tay;)

Borror0
03-01-2008, 02:26 AM
For the love of tasty ham, POST A SCREENMASHOT! Kargon going insane at kargon work and then kargon log onto forums and see somemabody claim figure at least one combinimatimion out, only to tease kargon, at this rate kargon going to claw own eyemaballs out!!


Whoever found the uber recipe should share it with the community, since so many have put great effort into putting together combination lists, which were surely relied upon to get to tier 3 special.


I agree that if someone has found a way to get one of the non-conventional tier3 upgrade paths figured out, they should surely post their findings here with the community that likely helped out in some point in their crafting process.

You guys really think Cow is being serious?!:confused:

Raidon
03-01-2008, 03:52 AM
To save time going thru this monster thread , can someone remind me if all three tiers of soul gem essences have been tried at the final altar?
do they fit?

Cheers :)

Cambo
03-01-2008, 04:09 AM
He is serious someone is holding out for thier own reasons.
That is thier choice and I have no issue with it if they didnt use anything on this thread provided by others to help them

Shima-ra
03-01-2008, 04:30 AM
I dont think he's serious. His post only shows that he is either greedy or liar.

No one is holding out information, because to discover a tier3 effect you have to use all the information shared on this thread. So holding out would be pretty ungratefull.

Cowdenicus
03-01-2008, 07:01 AM
I am being serious and I will not out any information until a. I have the info, AND b. I have their permission.

For those that think I am lieing, or being greedy, or whatever, I am just going by the information that I have recieved BUT if this si the reaction I am going to get from people, maybe I should not even bother getting the info for general release, or even attempting it.

Some people are just showing alot of ungratefulness. Jeez.

jjflanigan
03-01-2008, 07:08 AM
I am being serious and I will not out any information until a. I have the info, AND b. I have their permission.

For those that think I am lieing, or being greedy, or whatever, I am just going by the information that I have recieved BUT if this si the reaction I am going to get from people, maybe I should not even bother getting the info for general release, or even attempting it.

Some people are just showing alot of ungratefulness. Jeez.

While that may be true...how ungrateful is it for the person who got the item to not be willing to post up the information here, knowing full well they took at least some information from this thread or from the people who helped with the thread?

*EDIT*

It was pointed out to me that it's entirely possible that the person who found the "holy grail" could have been either a main contributor to info in this thread or even possibly just someone that worked long and hard with his or her guild to track down info. I shouldn't assume they are taking from the community without giving back, so I apologize in that regard. I mainly just was trying to state that I could see why people would get frustrated when many of them have also spent large amounts of time and effort trying to track things down and now they feel that someone who may or may not have used their info has discovered something special and is unwilling to share it with the community for some reason....however, I cannot really understand any logic behind not sharing the info since this isn't a competitive gaming environment. All releasing the info would do would get the person praise and adulation. *shrug* Sorry if I came across as self-righteous, it's a big personality flaw of mine :(

EspyLacopa
03-01-2008, 07:09 AM
Some people are just showing alot of ungratefulness. Jeez.
How can there be ungratefulness if you haven't given them anything?

Gol
03-01-2008, 08:06 AM
I am being serious and I will not out any information until a. I have the info, AND b. I have their permission.

For those that think I am lieing, or being greedy, or whatever, I am just going by the information that I have recieved BUT if this si the reaction I am going to get from people, maybe I should not even bother getting the info for general release, or even attempting it.
Assuming that the mystery contact actually exists and isn't just you talking about yourself in third person, they're the real a-holes here.

CaseStringer
03-01-2008, 08:47 AM
Mr. Cow, I never meant to presume that you were witholding anything...I believe that you know some one who has created a new Tier3 special effect...My only 'beef',(no pun intended) is that said person(s) had used info from this thread to get this far...and is now holding back information to the very people who helped their crafting endevours...I appauld anyone who has figured out this cryptic puzzle...but to take input from this thread and not give back to it when a breakthrough is reached...Well, It's just not right! Too many people are putting alot of time and effort into it. If they do not wish to share with the community, that's OK...But spare us the melodrama of... someone found it but i know not what it is...:confused:

Durten
03-01-2008, 09:15 AM
I am being serious and I will not out any information until a. I have the info, AND b. I have their permission.

For those that think I am lieing, or being greedy, or whatever, I am just going by the information that I have recieved BUT if this si the reaction I am going to get from people, maybe I should not even bother getting the info for general release, or even attempting it.

Some people are just showing alot of ungratefulness. Jeez.

Well, Cow doesn't even know the info so no need to beat up on Cow.

But the dude that supposedly figured it out...If someone got to tier 3 super bonus without ever reading this forum or getting any information from this forum directly or indirectly (via getting advice from someone that had) then they don't have to share. If they did use any info directly or indirectly then they are damaging their repuation.

apious1
03-01-2008, 09:37 AM
I am being serious and I will not out any information until a. I have the info, AND b. I have their permission.

For those that think I am lieing, or being greedy, or whatever, I am just going by the information that I have recieved BUT if this si the reaction I am going to get from people, maybe I should not even bother getting the info for general release, or even attempting it.

Some people are just showing alot of ungratefulness. Jeez.

Dude, are you serious? I am going to assume you are messing around. Besides, I have a funny feeling that I know who you might be talking about, or at least which guild. It really makes me laugh when guilds try to say, "Hey, this is a guild secret (exploit) don't tell anyone outside the guild or the Devs will find out and nerf it."

I am not going to mention any specific names/guild names but it was very interesting seeing a certain group of individuals consistently running this raid WITH pugs until about three weeks ago and suddenly...poof...no more LFM's. However, if you check the WHO panel you will see that those same people are still running it. Either, 1. their guild population increased enough to accomodate not having to pug, 2. they found a way to do it with smaller groups (which really is quite possible, just not as easy or fast), or 3. they found an exploit and are not opening groups up to unknown puggers to try to keep it a secret. Trust me, I don't care either way but it always makes me laugh.

Seriously, do you guys that know about exploits and try to keep them a "guild secret" REALLY think that the Devs don't know? Let's pretend I am a Dev. I build a brand new raid that I know everyone is going to play the hell out of. Then what? You think I am going to sit of the forums and search for your feedback or watch you first-hand? I am not a video game designer so I don't know the logistics, but I don't imagine it is hard to watch or go back and read the code to see how parties are running this raid.

BTW, there are a couple exploits I know of in this raid so far. I can't really post them here because I am actually enjoying this game lately and prefer not to get banned. However, what makes me laugh is that they are common knowledge amongst anyone that runs this raid more than once a week. My point is, too many people try to keep too many secrets in this game when the reality is that everyone already knows.

One more thing while I am at it, what about the uber loot syndrome. I/we want to be the only ones on the server/game with this uber loot for as long as possible. Dude, I'll whoop your *** in any quest regardless of your uber loot. And, like several people have said so far in this thread which really extends beyond just these new recipe options...chances are you were not the FIRST one to discover it and if you were chances are someone helped you in some way to get to the point where you could get it and/or knew about it. So, stop acting self-righteous and share the info that was so freely shared with you.

Edit: LOL, I reread my post and realized I kind of went off on a non-related tangent. BTW, Cow...other than my first paragraph all of my other comments are referring to people other than you unless you fit that profile. I used to be a guild that this was their policy. I actually remember getting yelled at one night for pugging a raid b/c they didn't want to disclose guild secrets. This type of behavior just makes me laugh at how childish some people can be in this game.

Aesop
03-01-2008, 09:43 AM
Guys lay off my Cow. If he has some info he'll share when he can. He's just as excited about it as you are and the possibilities. He doesn't hold out unless he has to.


And Cow... MMMOOOOOOOOO!!!1!!!!!!!!1


Aesop

joeuhuh
03-01-2008, 10:17 AM
my moms got a uber tier three recipe she used focus of chocolate focus of wallnuts and fouces of brownsugar to make some uber tier 3 cookies for me and brought them over last night i updated my greensteel tastebuds last night on the alter of satisfaction

but i wil not tell u the uberlicious bonus effect these cookies had on my girlfriend

Hendrik
03-01-2008, 11:15 AM
No - and I think this is the way to go. I'm not sure I'm going to need a 3rd empty shard though - I think they will probably just 'combine' with the power cell.

I just need 4 more large ingredients to test this theory - hopefully they will materialise.

Garth

On Sarlona Garth?

If so, what four do you need?

Might be able to help you out with this test, sounds like you are closer then we are testing it. Let me know pal!

:cool:

Hendrik
03-01-2008, 11:21 AM
Get off Cow's back people. He IS a stand up guy and if he can share he will.

Now if the person that made the item will share, who knows. Hope they did not use the info here and hold out on everyone to stroke the small e-peen.

Hope you can get it Cow. Gonna answer a lot of questions.

:D