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Assio
03-06-2008, 11:38 PM
Another Neoskullriders Victory: 2 more recipes. Good times!

ghale
03-06-2008, 11:38 PM
YOu can find it here: DDO Crafting Helper Page (http://www.randojones.com/miscellany/ddocrafting.aspx)

Very nice! Thanks :).

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-06-2008, 11:41 PM
Come get your Lightning Strike and Freezing Ice in the pvp pit!

Garth

Tanka
03-06-2008, 11:42 PM
So Lightning Strike is basically just Incinerate (Fire/Fire/Fire) but with lightning damage? Spiffy, considering not too many opponents resist shocking damage. :D

What's the Ice 2 ability?

Kargon
03-06-2008, 11:43 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/FusionBlast/LightningIIhammer.jpg

Took two shards of powermer, and 24 ingredimients, and seems... the same as going say fire/fire/fire for incineratimion. it better do twice as much damanage or somemathing to be worth it, grrr....

oh well, are VERY nice dps weapamon any way.

Pos/Dominion/Material
Air/Dominion/Material
Air/Dominion/Material + Pos/Dominion/Material (Air shard in first for sure into crafting device, got lightnaming instead of holy blast as hoping)

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-06-2008, 11:44 PM
Now I get to hassle Kargon for taking too long to upload screenshots!!! Ice II is 'freezing ice'.

Garth

Boulderun
03-06-2008, 11:45 PM
I sure hope Lightning Strike is worth actually putting on a raid weapon, as opposed to Cloudburst...

Tanka
03-06-2008, 11:47 PM
Considering that all the demons and devils (save the DQ) are not resistant/immune to holy or shock damage, yeah, that thing's gonna rip them a new one.

Looks like that's my first greatsword, and the Holy/Holy/Holy is gonna have to wait a few runs through. :D

Thanks Kargon!

Borror0
03-06-2008, 11:51 PM
oh well, are VERY nice dps weapamon any way.

I guess you're already in PvP trying it, right?

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-06-2008, 11:57 PM
I guess you're already in PvP trying it, right?

(Combat): Kargona's weapon's lightning strike effect hit you for 631 points of electric damage.
(Combat): You were killed by Kargona.

Ok - maybe not weaksauce after all!

Garth

Tanka
03-06-2008, 11:58 PM
...Damn.

ME WANT!

TKnor
03-06-2008, 11:59 PM
Oh, and before I forget to mention it for too long, I originally was using DDOWiki as my source of information, but they're wanting to show the effects as they are now and not intended, so I decided I'll use Inkblack's sheet as it is also likely to be the most recent and authoritative source on the subject.

More about projected improvements later.

Thanks for your (future) support, everyone!

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:00 AM
(Combat): Kargona's weapon's lightning strike effect hit you for 631 points of electric damage.
(Combat): You were killed by Kargona.

Gah!

Note to self: Holy, Shocking burst, +4 AC and Lightning Strike.

ghale
03-07-2008, 12:01 AM
(Combat): Kargona's weapon's lightning strike effect hit you for 631 points of electric damage.
(Combat): You were killed by Kargona.

Ok - maybe not weaksauce after all!

Garth

lol that is a pretty pimp effect! I think that was worth it Kargon :).

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:01 AM
Oh, and before I forget to mention it for too long, I originally was using DDOWiki as my source of information, but they're wanting to show the effects as they are now and not intended, so I decided I'll use Inkblack's sheet as it is also likely to be the most recent and authoritative source on the subject.

Actually, we are showing as they are now and explaining in the footer how they should be.:D;)

Tanka
03-07-2008, 12:02 AM
Gah!

Note to self: Holy, Shocking burst, +4 AC and Lightning Strike.
Of course, the Strike ability is probably going to fire off pretty rarely. But still. That's a ton of damage in one swing and will be all kinds of exciting to see at any time (and may even turn the tide of battle in some instances).

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 12:02 AM
lol that is a pretty pimp effect! I think that was worth it Kargon :).

Yeah - it's not procing very often though - it looks like less than 5%. It's not on a crit.

But, on the plus side - there's no save, and I was wearing heavy fort and it went straight through that. The visual effect is cool as well, we'll be posting a screenshot soon.

Garth

Kargon
03-07-2008, 12:04 AM
Willphase Vs Kargon Hammermer: This for those post mocking kargon about pos/neg!!!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/FusionBlast/WillphaseVsKargonHammer.jpg

(Combat): Your weapon's lightning strike effect hit Haeson for 643 points of electric damage.

Lebrac
03-07-2008, 12:07 AM
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x125/Lebby2/ScreenShot00036.jpg

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:09 AM
Willphase Vs Kargon Hammermer: This for those post mocking kargon about pos/neg!!!

Is it AoE?

mudfud
03-07-2008, 12:10 AM
looks like it did get joe, unless he swung and hit joe cause he was near and haeson was dead.

Pecky
03-07-2008, 12:12 AM
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3513/twoshardspv9vc2.jpg



http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8620/combinedshardto9vo4.jpg



http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9822/preupgradecd3gu8.jpg


http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/6660/postupgradeuw3kb8.jpg

Kargon
03-07-2008, 12:12 AM
looks like it did get joe, unless he swung and hit joe cause he was near and haeson was dead.

that damage are just from extrama swing, doesnt look AoE so far.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:13 AM
Nice! Freezing Ice!

Can't wait for ya to test it.:)

Kargon
03-07-2008, 12:14 AM
Nice! Freezing Ice!

Can't wait for ya to test it.:)

Looks like has a fort save, and freeze just like early ice flensers somematimes do. Kargon guessaming 35 dc on save, but we not sure yet. Yes, the party made TWO new weapamons (only the hammer are kargons, not silly ice weapamon) on one silly raid.

Speakaming of which, kargon would like to thank NSR for the approximimate 5 or so large ingredimients got donatamed (not counting keensly theft).

p.s. kargon hammermer makes a crazy lightning strike sound effect too while big lightnaming graphamic are displaying, crazy fun times.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 12:16 AM
looks like it did get joe, unless he swung and hit joe cause he was near and haeson was dead.

It's a conspiracy I say! Eladrin and the devs are out to get me. This big lightning bolt came down from the heavens and struck me down!

A conspiracy I say!

Garth

p.s. what's with the facination of posts showing me dying... :eek: anyone else would be getting slighly paranoid.

mudfud
03-07-2008, 12:16 AM
Nice! Freezing Ice!

Can't wait for ya to test it.:)

It froze opponent solid.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:16 AM
Looks like has a fort save, and freeze just like early ice flensers somematimes do. Kargon guessaming 35 dc on save, but we not sure yet.

Like Ice Flensers do? (Sorry to sound like a noob but I don't get it.. xD)

How often does it happen? More then 5%, I hope.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:18 AM
It's a conspiracy I say! Eladrin and the devs are out to get me. This big lightning bolt came down from the heavens and struck me down!

It was meant for Kargon, but it hit his head and bounced back on the nearest target (you).

Tanka
03-07-2008, 12:19 AM
Autocrits while frozen or just makes target immobile?

Kargon: Looks like you made Thor's hammer. :D

Lebrac
03-07-2008, 12:20 AM
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x125/Lebby2/ScreenShot00037.jpg

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 12:21 AM
Autocrits while frozen or just makes target immobile?

Just immobile:

http://photos.phase.net/albums/ddo/frozenbrood.jpg

Garth

Kargon
03-07-2008, 12:21 AM
Like Ice Flensers do?

very rarelamally ice flensers do some close range melee attack that can freeze target in block of ice. kargon only ever see in tempest spine ice flensermer twice and once on othermer ice flensamer cant remembamer where.

Tanka
03-07-2008, 12:23 AM
Just immobile:
Mmmm, Broodcicle.

No autocrits, but still pretty nice, considering.

Unfortunately, it'll have very limited use versus red/purples.

I wonder though, does FoM protect against the frozen status?

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:24 AM
No autocrits, but still pretty nice, considering.

Not really, Earthgrab seems better...

nbhs275
03-07-2008, 12:24 AM
IF its just any combinations of positive/lightning, then my clerics greatsword is going to be killer. holy shocking burst sup devotion 6 of crazy lightning woopass.

Tanka
03-07-2008, 12:26 AM
Not really, Earthgrab seems better...
Good point, I'd forgotten on that one. Plus Acid/Acid gets you a nifty pet to play around with.

Cambo
03-07-2008, 12:27 AM
Hrmmm the last 2 items created got damage strike type effects and thier upgrade Tier 3 was a damage Tier.

Is it possible that there are more than 1 effect possible eg. if you put acid blast (in mineral II shard) on a mineral 1 weaon you would get a special acid effect or still the transmuting / keen / slicing ?

(Overall I would think breaking DR each swing on DR mobs would average out to similar damage to the lighning effect but no chance of 1 bit damage hit.)

Lets hope it is still the transmuting effect.......otherwise things will get too complex.

Kargon
03-07-2008, 12:27 AM
IF its just any combinations of positive/lightning, then my clerics greatsword is going to be killer. holy shocking burst sup devotion 6 of crazy lightning woopass.

we beginnaming to suspect the air going to override the posimitive on the final tier upgramade, since the weapamon lists 'air and posimitive' (air first) in the 'aspect of' descriptimion. so would not be able to put lightnaming II on a weapamon with superior devotimion at same time if this turn out be true.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 12:27 AM
I wonder though, does FoM protect against the frozen status?

Yes - it would appear FOM protects you against it.

Garth

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:29 AM
we beginnaming to suspect the air going to override the posimitive on the final tier upgramade, since the weapamon lists 'air and posimitive' (air first) in the 'aspect of' descriptimion. so would not be able to put lightnaming II on a weapamon with superior devotimion at same time if this turn out be true.
(Party): [Party] Kargona: combining two shards, putting air first

As a result, maybe order matters.

EDIT: Pecky also put air first and got Shocking Blast.

Tanka
03-07-2008, 12:30 AM
Yes - it would appear FOM protects you against it.

Garth
Hm. So less useful than Acid/Acid/Acid in many instances. That seems kind of... disappointing, really.

Maybe if they had made the ability more like the white dragon's freezing aura instead?

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:32 AM
So less useful than Acid/Acid/Acid in many instances.

Depends on how often both occur. If Freezing Ice happens much more often then Earthgrab...

Tanka
03-07-2008, 12:34 AM
Depends on how often both occur. If Freezing Ice happens much more often then Earthgrab...
But doesn't give autocrits, both have saves and can be protected against with FoM...

Acid seems to be universally less resisted against as well, and takes only 12 larges instead of 24.

Testing seems to be in order!

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:36 AM
Depends on how often both occur. If Freezing Ice happens much more often then Earthgrab...
But doesn't give autocrits, both have saves and can be protected against with FoM...

Better now?:D


Depends on how often both occur. If Freezing Ice happens much more often then Earthgrab...

Tanka
03-07-2008, 12:37 AM
Better now?:D
Nope. ;)

nbhs275
03-07-2008, 12:52 AM
we beginnaming to suspect the air going to override the posimitive on the final tier upgramade, since the weapamon lists 'air and posimitive' (air first) in the 'aspect of' descriptimion. so would not be able to put lightnaming II on a weapamon with superior devotimion at same time if this turn out be true.

hmm, now the question that we have to find an answer for is if there is a dominant element scheme, or if order matters. That will make a big difference.

I gotta say the chances of the tier 3 bonus effecting the tier 3 effect is slim. That would mean that there is 5+ abilities for each quasi-elemental combination.

Keneith
03-07-2008, 01:17 AM
Autocrits while frozen or just makes target immobile?

Kargon: Looks like you made Thor's hammer. :D

Well....if only Kargon makes a returning Throwing Hammer, that will b a real Thor's hammer :D
It will b really cool if u throw the hammer n Kaboom! Lightning strike! that will b way too cool.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 01:30 AM
hmm, now the question that we have to find an answer for is if there is a dominant element scheme, or if order matters. That will make a big difference.

I gotta say the chances of the tier 3 bonus effecting the tier 3 effect is slim. That would mean that there is 5+ abilities for each quasi-elemental combination.

Just try it, put Positive first in the Altar and see what it gives.;)

Mavnimo
03-07-2008, 06:18 AM
I recently tried -OM/+EE/(+EE/-OM). i was able to make the Supreme +EE and the Supreme -OM. I tried to combine the 2 with an energy cell and it failed. My next attempt will be to make a -EE supreme shard, which i know will combine into the final Shard but im not sure whether the final combination will result in concordant opposotion. Just to add more information, i tried it twice swapping the order pos/neg/cell then neg/pos/cell.

Missing_Minds
03-07-2008, 07:22 AM
very rarelamally ice flensers do some close range melee attack that can freeze target in block of ice. kargon only ever see in tempest spine ice flensermer twice and once on othermer ice flensamer cant remembamer where.

Tempest Spine, Prison of the Planes, Invaders, Threnal... those are where I can remember ice flensers off the top of my head.

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 07:29 AM
i was able to make the Supreme +EE and the Supreme -OM. I tried to combine the 2 with an energy cell and it failed.

Good to know! Thanks for testing.

Gol
03-07-2008, 08:01 AM
I recently tried -OM/+EE/(+EE/-OM). i was able to make the Supreme +EE and the Supreme -OM. I tried to combine the 2 with an energy cell and it failed. My next attempt will be to make a -EE supreme shard, which i know will combine into the final Shard but im not sure whether the final combination will result in concordant opposotion. Just to add more information, i tried it twice swapping the order pos/neg/cell then neg/pos/cell.
Wow... Perhaps the 2 shards must have at least 1 component in common?

Missing_Minds
03-07-2008, 08:11 AM
Wow... Perhaps the 2 shards must have at least 1 component in common?

I'm guessing the non elemental foci must be the same.

Inkblack
03-07-2008, 08:49 AM
Extending Gol's post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1602336&postcount=2152), with his original text in white:

UPGRADED FULLY:

Weapon
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

Item
1 negative escalation ethereal (negative affinity)
2 positive escalation ethereal (existential stalemate)
3 positive escalation ethereal + negative escalation ethereal = positive escalation ethereal / Existential Stalemate

Weapon
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Air Dominion Material (aspect of lightning)
3 Air Dominion Material + Positive Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Lightning

Weapon
1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice


DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:

Item
1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 air ethereal escalation + earth ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

So why did four of these combinations work and one did not?

Preliminary pass at elemental dominance (if it exists):
Earth
Air
Water (below air, possibly below positive and/or negative)
Positive (below air)
Negative (below positive)


Fire's order is unknown

Ink

Edit 1: Added weapon/item types
Edit 2: Reformatted to make it quotable

Falcion
03-07-2008, 09:08 AM
Well Congrats guys on the 2 new items. Looks like my theory is blown thou... thanks to that Freezing Ice Short Sword.
Short sword had Air Affinity/Ice plus Shard with Air Affinity/Ice = Freezing Ice -->2 airs put together Blows Falcion's Theory ;)

Oh well back to the drawing board. Hopefully in about 7 more large components I can add to the knowledge base as well but I'm on timer now :( my plan is going after some +45 HP gloves w/ Concordant Opposition.

Still curios why we have failures on the land and sky thing. Do we have screen shots of this failed attempt? I've seen screen shots of the passed attempts but don't recall if I had seen shots of the land and sky attempt.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 09:17 AM
2 airs put together Blows Falcion's Theory ;)

Not totally, remember that Eladrin said "speical" upgrades were harder? Your theory might still apply to "special" upgrades.

That would explain the failure of the Balance of Earth and Sky.

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 09:25 AM
Not totally, remember that Eladrin said "speical" upgrades were harder? Your theory might still apply to "special" upgrades.

That would explain the failure of the Balance of Earth and Sky.

Yeah, but Eladrin also said that everything you can make at second tier has an upgrade path to third tier.

If there's a dominant focus (which is seeming more and more likely) and if the dominant focus has to combine with the first tier "Affinity" then you've created a situation where some items can't be upgraded to Tier III.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 09:55 AM
Yeah, but Eladrin also said that everything you can make at second tier has an upgrade path to third tier.

If there's a dominant focus (which is seeming more and more likely) and if the dominant focus has to combine with the first tier "Affinity" then you've created a situation where some items can't be upgraded to Tier III.

The idea are that these "special" upgrades (Stalemate, Balance of E&S and Tempered) are themed around a balance. Maybe that depending on the focus you used at first altar (the one giving "Affinty") taints the weapon of that focus and the dominant focus on the Shard of Supreme Power stabilises the item's balance even more. However, if the dominant focus on the shard is the same as the Affinity of the item well it breaks the very thin balance present on the capricious item.

Now, like you said, Eladrin said all item made at tier two had an upgrade at tier three. But again, he said they (Stalemate, Balance of E&S and Tempered) were special. so maybe that in one case the upgrade is the coresponding focus (Stalemate II, Balance of E&S II and Tempered II) and in the other case it's something else, making the order you took the foci matter.

EspyLacopa
03-07-2008, 10:00 AM
The idea are that these "special" upgrades (Stalemate, Balance of E&S and Tempered) are themed around a balance. Maybe that depending on the focus you used at first altar (the one giving "Affinty") taints the weapon of that focus and the dominant focus on the Shard of Supreme Power stabilises the item's balance even more. However, if the dominant focus on the shard is the same as the Affinity of the item well it breaks the very thin balance present on the capricious item.

Now, like you said, Eladrin said all item made at tier two had an upgrade at tier three. But again, he said they (Stalemate, Balance of E&S and Tempered) were special. so maybe that in one case the upgrade is the coresponding focus (Stalemate II, Balance of E&S II and Tempered II) and in the other case it's something else, making the order you took the foci matter.
hmm.

Taken from Gol's Post:


DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:
Item
1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 air ethereal escalation + earth ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

So, for that theory to work, it means there is no such thing as a Dominant Focus. That would imply that this person actually put the two initial foci in as Earth / Air / Cell instead of the listed Air / Earth / Cell

If Dominant Foci are how it decides, then that still means that your theory is false due to the result: Half of the Land and Sky Combos cannot be upgraded to reach their full potential. (due to the revealed Earth dominance over Air). And Eladrin mentioned that they are all capable of reaching their full potential. (in this case, Balance of Land and Sky II)

Borror0
03-07-2008, 10:14 AM
hmm.

Taken from Gol's Post:


DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:
Item
1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 air ethereal escalation + earth ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

That actually proves my point. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough, sorry about that.

Here it failed as it had Earth Affinity and Earth Shard, it would have worked with Air Affinity and Earth focus from the Shard of Supreme Power. From my point of view, it's like there is a little more air in the item then there is of earth. By adding the little more Earth on the shard you would create a total and perfect balance.

However, if there is Earth Affinity on the item and you add Earth focus from the Shard then it breaks the Balance and you don't get acess to Balance of L&S II.

However, like I said, Eladrin only said that "An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged." and "All of them can be successfully upgraded." He never said that Balance of Land and Sky would upgrade into Balance of Land and Sky II, only "does possess an upgrade". So, in that optic, you could have one partern for Earth/Air and one for Air/Earth.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 10:17 AM
Preliminary pass at elemental dominance (if it exists):
Earth
Air
Water (below air, possibly below positive and/or negative)
Positive (below air)
Negative (below positive)


Fire's order is unknown



I went through all of my screenshots and arranged all the elements in the order they appeared in the description (someone suggested this, not my idea) e.g. for Ice (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%202/Item%20WEE%20AEE.JPG) the description is always:

Aspect of Ice: This item has accumulated enough of the power of Air and Water to take on some of the special characteristics of elemental Ice.

Then set up a series of rules that enforced elemental ordering:

fire > neg
air > pos
air > fire
earth > pos
earth > fire
earth > water
air > water
earth > neg
water > pos
water > neg
(fire > water)

This gives the following order of elemental dominance:

Earth
Air
Fire
Water
Pos
Neg

(Note: Fire trumping Water is not confirmed since Tempered doesn't explicitly mention the elements, we will only know this for sure when someone puts Tempered on at tier 3)

This appears to match all of the results so far: Kargon's warhammer got Shocking Blast (Air beat Pos), the Concordant Opposition goggles got CHA skills (Pos beat Neg), Atanas' Icy shortsword got Shocking Blast (Air beat Water).

This does limit the combinations a bit - e.g. a Mineral II weapon can never have Good Blast, always Acid Blast.

We really need a few more tier 3 combinations, and for people to try different shard order, before we're sure though.

Garth

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 10:34 AM
Here it failed as it had Earth Affinity and Earth Shard, it would have worked with Air Affinity and Earth focus from the Shard of Supreme Power. From my point of view, it's like there is a little more air in the item then there is of earth. By adding the little more Earth on the shard you would create a total and perfect balance.

However, if there is Earth Affinity on the item and you add Earth focus from the Shard then it breaks the Balance and you don't get acess to Balance of L&S II.


I still don't think order for Tier 1 and Tier 2 affects the Tier 3 effect. Also I now don't believe you can control the element in the tier 3 combined shard.



However, like I said, Eladrin only said that "An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged." and "All of them can be successfully upgraded." He never said that Balance of Land and Sky would upgrade into Balance of Land and Sky II, only "does possess an upgrade". So, in that optic, you could have one partern for Earth/Air and one for Air/Earth.

Yes, I think the secret to unlocking Balance of Earth and Sky tier 3 is to add something else. My current guess is Tempered (to give all four material elements in one item), and a distant second place is Existential Stalemate.

Someone needs to try EDM//ADM//(FDM+WDM). :)

Garth

Inkblack
03-07-2008, 10:35 AM
Earth
Air
Fire
Water
Pos
Neg


Earth, Wind, and Fire ... that must be it :D

Ink

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Mavnimo
i was able to make the Supreme Pos/Eth/Esc and the Supreme Neg/Opp/Mat. I tried to combine the 2 with an energy cell and it failed.


Hmmmm....
Can't combine Eth+Mat on Tier 3.

Furthermore:

Got Super Power:
=============
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

Focus: Pos/Earth/(Earth+Pos)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Opp+Opp)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Eth+Eth)

1 negative escalation ethereal (negative affinity)
2 positive escalation ethereal (existential stalemate)
3 positive escalation ethereal + negative escalation ethereal = positive escalation ethereal / Existential Stalemate

Focus: Neg/Pos/(Pos+Neg)
Gems: Esc/Esc/(Esc+Esc)
Essence: Eth/Eth/(Eth+Eth)

1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Air Dominion Material (aspect of lightning)
3 Air Dominion Material + Positive Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Lightning

Focus: Pos/Air/(Air+Pos)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Dom+Dom)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Mat+Mat)

1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice

Focus: Air/Water/(Air+Water)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Dom+Dom)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Mat+Mat)


DID NOT Get Super Power:
====================
1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 earth ethereal escalation + air ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

Focus: Earth/Air/(Earth+Air)
Gems: Esc/Esc/(Esc+Esc)
Essence: Mat/Eth/(Eth+Eth)

====================

Result:
The one that failed, crossed Material and Ethereal in Tiers 1 + 2. Ethereal + Material mixing seems to be the key.

Keep same = get super tier 3 power.
Different = no super tier 3 power.

So, good combos are:
================
Mat+Mat+(Mat+Mat)
Mat+Mat+(Eth+Eth)
Eth+Eth+(Mat+Mat)
Eth+Eth+(Eth+Eth)

Borror0
03-07-2008, 10:38 AM
I still don't think order for Tier 1 and Tier 2 affects the Tier 3 effect. Also I now don't believe you can control the element in the tier 3 combined shard.

In my theory, it doesn't matter as long as there is another way to upgrade it, say adding Tempered to BoLS like you pointed out.

Turial
03-07-2008, 10:43 AM
That actually proves my point. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough, sorry about that.

Here it failed as it had Earth Affinity and Earth Shard, it would have worked with Air Affinity and Earth focus from the Shard of Supreme Power. From my point of view, it's like there is a little more air in the item then there is of earth. By adding the little more Earth on the shard you would create a total and perfect balance.

However, if there is Earth Affinity on the item and you add Earth focus from the Shard then it breaks the Balance and you don't get acess to Balance of L&S II.

However, like I said, Eladrin only said that "An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged." and "All of them can be successfully upgraded." He never said that Balance of Land and Sky would upgrade into Balance of Land and Sky II, only "does possess an upgrade". So, in that optic, you could have one partern for Earth/Air and one for Air/Earth.

The other thing to note is that if you must balance the first foci with the one listed on the final shard you are infact making 3 combinations of a aspect. In the case of this below:

Earth
Pos + mineral
Mineral shard with pos listed

You have 3 mineral combinations; 1) from foci 1 and 2, 2) from the foci combining on the mineral shard, and 3) from the first foci and the listed foci on the mineral shard

This means you have actually have 2 energy paths with 3 upgrades. 1 positive path and 1 earth path which combine to make a mineral path. This would explain why combination paths can be more powerful the a pure 3 tier path.

Only thing I don't like about that idea is it does restrict the items one can make when trying for a tier 3 mixed energy item. Granted its less restrictive then a dominate focus would be.

Mad_Bombardier
03-07-2008, 10:45 AM
I went through all of my screenshots and arranged all the elements in the order they appeared in the description (someone suggested this, not my idea) e.g. for Ice (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%202/Item%20WEE%20AEE.JPG) the description is always:

Aspect of Ice: This item has accumulated enough of the power of Air and Water to take on some of the special characteristics of elemental Ice.Nice one, Garth. That also explains why the Air + Earth shard was EEE/Balance and not dominant Air (like the others created so far). I think you're on to something. :)

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 10:48 AM
Result:
The one that failed, crossed Material and Ethereal in Tiers 1 + 2. Ethereal + Material mixing seems to be the key.

Keep same = get super tier 3 power.
Different = no super tier 3 power.

So, good combos are:
================
Mat+Mat+(Mat+Mat)
Mat+Mat+(Eth+Eth)
Eth+Eth+(Mat+Mat)
Eth+Eth+(Eth+Eth)

I don't think it's as complicated as this. I still think you have to make sure both the gem and essence are the same. It's not as if you're going to get the effect of both shards anyway so you might as well pick what you want for your tier 3 effect (bearing in mind it's suspected some elements trump others) and then just add the other element to unlock your bonus effect, keeping the same gem/essence.

Garth

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 10:52 AM
Extending Gol's post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1602336&postcount=2152), with his original text in white:
DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:

Item
1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 air ethereal escalation + earth ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

So why did four of these combinations work and one did not?



As I explained yesterday, the dominate focus on the dual shard is paired with the first focus to create the second aspect a THIRD time. In the case of the other examples, this resulted in successfully repeating the original aspect/balance. In the example that failed, it did not. Instead of creating balance of land and sky I and II, it created balance of land and sky and earth aspect, because although while the shard was appropriately named and made, the combination of the dominate focus of the shard with the first focus at the altar of invasion resulted in aspect of earth, not balance of land and sky.

It's not just the dual shard that has to be named in such a way as to mirror the name of the first aspect/balance, it's ALSO that the dominate focus on the dual shard when paired with the first focus has to mirror the aspect/balance.

In other words:

focus 1 + focus 2 = apsect I
dual shard focus 3 + 4 = aspect I repeated AND dominate dual shard focus + focus 1 = apect I repeated = aspect II

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 10:52 AM
I don't think it's as complicated as this. I still think you have to make sure both the gem and essence are the same. It's not as if you're going to get the effect of both shards anyway so you might as well pick what you want for your tier 3 effect (bearing in mind it's suspected some elements trump others) and then just add the other element to unlock your bonus effect, keeping the same gem/essence.

Garth

Here is the failure, once again. Look closely:

DID NOT Get Super Power:
====================
1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 earth ethereal escalation + air ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

Focus: Earth/Air/(Earth+Air)
Gems: Esc/Esc/(Esc+Esc)
Essence: Mat/Eth/(Eth+Eth)

The failure was (X+Ethereal + Escalation) + (Y+Ethereal + Escalation) on the tier 3 shard. That means the above cannot be true, or else it would have worked.

The only difference was that he mixed Mat+Eth for tiers 1+2.

Also, note this SUCCESS:
==================
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

Focus: Pos/Earth/(Earth+Pos)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Opp+Opp)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Eth+Eth)

Mat 1+2, Eth 3.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 10:57 AM
As I explained yesterday, the dominate focus on the dual shard is paired with the first focus to create the second aspect a THIRD time. In the case of the other examples, this resulted in successfully repeating the original aspect/balance. In the example that failed, it did not. Instead of creating balance of land and sky I and II, it created balance of land and sky and earth aspect, because although while the shard was appropriately named and made, the combination of the dominate focus of the shard with the first focus at the altar of invasion resulted in aspect of earth, not balance of land and sky.

It's not just the dual shard that has to be named in such a way as to mirror the name of the first aspect/balance, it's ALSO that the dominate focus on the dual shard when paired with the first focus has to mirror the aspect/balance also.

(sorry but) I'm not sure this theory holds any more. If you examine Kargon's Warhammer, he put positive on at first tier, so he got 'aspect of positive energy' and Holy. Then, when he put the two supremes in at devastation, they combined (in the order I posted above, air trumped positive) to create an Air shard. When he combined this with his weapon he still got the tier 3 special bonus effect, even though it 'contradicted' with the positive aspect in first tier.

(I know I keep saying this but..) I still don't think order of 1st and 2nd tier elements has any effect on third tier bonus effects. The only reason why Balance of Land and Sky didn't upgrade was that it's probably not BoLaS that needs to be put on at tier 3, I still suspect Tempered is the correct upgrade.

Garth

Borror0
03-07-2008, 11:05 AM
If you examine Kargon's Warhammer, he put positive on at first tier, so he got 'aspect of positive energy' and Holy. Then, when he put the two supremes in at devastation, they combined (in the order I posted above, air trumped positive) to create an Air shard. When he combined this with his weapon he still got the tier 3 special bonus effect, even though it 'contradicted' with the positive aspect in first tier.

Kargon's wasn't a special update, it was a quasi-elemental. Not the same.

No balance to keep.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 11:06 AM
My theory:

Para/Quasi Upgrades:
==============
* Create a Tier 3 supershard with the same two elements from first two upgrades. Focii order doesn't matter. Gem/Essence doesn't matter.

Examples:
Air . . . Fire. . . Smoke
Air . . . Water . . Ice
Earth . . Fire. . . Magma
Earth . . Water . . Ooze

Air . . . Positive. Lightning
Air . . . Negative. Vacuum
Earth . . Positive. Mineral
Earth . . Negative. Dust
Fire. . . Positive. Radiance
Fire. . . Negative. Ash
Water . . Positive. Steam
Water . . Negative. Salt

Special Upgrades: (Special means OPPOSITE - don't normally exist in D&D)
================================================== ==
* Create a Tier 3 supershard with the OPPOSITE two elements from first two upgrades. Focii order doesn't matter. Gem/Essence doesn't matter.

Examples:

Air . . . Earth . . the opposite of (Air+Earth) = (Fire+Water) = Tempered
Fire. . . Water . . the opposite of (Fire+Water) = (Air+Earth) = Balance of Land+Sky
Positive. Negative. the opposite of (Pos+Neg) = (Pos+Neg) = Existential Stalemate

EspyLacopa
03-07-2008, 11:06 AM
That actually proves my point. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough, sorry about that.

Here it failed as it had Earth Affinity and Earth Shard, it would have worked with Air Affinity and Earth focus from the Shard of Supreme Power. From my point of view, it's like there is a little more air in the item then there is of earth. By adding the little more Earth on the shard you would create a total and perfect balance.

However, if there is Earth Affinity on the item and you add Earth focus from the Shard then it breaks the Balance and you don't get acess to Balance of L&S II.

However, like I said, Eladrin only said that "An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged." and "All of them can be successfully upgraded." He never said that Balance of Land and Sky would upgrade into Balance of Land and Sky II, only "does possess an upgrade". So, in that optic, you could have one partern for Earth/Air and one for Air/Earth.

Did you miss the second part of my post? Here it is again:

So, for that theory to work, it means there is no such thing as a Dominant Focus. That would imply that this person actually put the two initial foci in as Earth / Air / Cell instead of the listed Air / Earth / Cell

If Dominant Foci are how it decides, then that still means that your theory is false due to the result: Half of the Land and Sky Combos cannot be upgraded to reach their full potential. (due to the revealed Earth dominance over Air). And Eladrin mentioned that they are all capable of reaching their full potential. (in this case, Balance of Land and Sky II)

Again, for your theory to work based on the givens from Eladrin (that all items will have that upgrade path), then there must be a way to get a combined Imbued Shard with the Land and Sky bit, as well as either Air, or Earth. If there are Dominant Foci, this is impossible. As such, for your theory to work, one of the following must be true:

Eladrin was wrong. . .not all versions of an Aspect are upgradeable to their final bit.
There are no dominant foci. (this would imply that whoever had made that combined shard of Balance/Earth listed the ingredients wrong, and had put the Earth shard in first)
There's a mystery imbued shard that will upgrade Balance I items without using a Balance/Earth Shard.

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 11:07 AM
(sorry but) I'm not sure this theory holds any more. If you examine Kargon's Warhammer, he put positive on at first tier, so he got 'aspect of positive energy' and Holy. Then, when he put the two supremes in at devastation, they combined (in the order I posted above, air trumped positive) to create an Air shard. When he combined this with his weapon he still got the tier 3 special bonus effect, even though it 'contradicted' with the positive aspect in first tier.

(I know I keep saying this but..) I still don't think order of 1st and 2nd tier elements has any effect on third tier bonus effects. The only reason why Balance of Land and Sky didn't upgrade was that it's probably not BoLaS that needs to be put on at tier 3, I still suspect Tempered is the correct upgrade.

Garth


postive = focus 1
air = focus 2

positive + air = lightning

AIR is the dominate focus for the shard as it should be... if you read the description on the item for aspect of lighting air comes first. The element/energy listed first is the dominate focus on the shard.

Now, with that in mind

focus 1 = positive
focus 2 = air

shard focus 3 + 4 = lightning aspect shard with dominate focus of air

dominate focus of air on the shard when paired with the first focus of positive results in lightning again

The theory works if you read carefully

the reason why the attempt with land and sky did not work is because the dominate focus of earth on the shard when paired with the first focus of earth resulted in aspect of earth, not aspect of land and sky.

The dominate focus of the shard is supposed to contradict the first focus. If it matched the first focus, it wouldn't recreate the aspect.

Wulf_Ratbane
03-07-2008, 11:10 AM
I'd just like to say, that although this is obviously a huge end game grind, it's at least a very well done one. Good job, Devs.

By comparison, grinding for dragon scales sucked hard.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 11:14 AM
the reason why the attempt with land and sky did not work is because the dominate focus of earth on the shard when paired with the first focus of earth resulted in aspect of earth, not aspect of land and sky.

That was disproven with this SUCCESS:
============================
1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice

Focus: Air/Water/(Air+Water)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Dom+Dom)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Mat+Mat)

Freezing Ice

Borror0
03-07-2008, 11:17 AM
If Dominant Foci are how it decides, then that still means that your theory is false due to the result: Half of the Land and Sky Combos cannot be upgraded to reach their full potential. (due to the revealed Earth dominance over Air). And Eladrin mentioned that they are all capable of reaching their full potential. (in this case, Balance of Land and Sky II)

I already adressed this. He never said that a BoL&S I would reach BoL&S II, he said that every item could gain a tier three special a way or another, period. That is all he said. So, it doesn't mean that BoL&S II will be used to upgrade both BoL&S, that only means that there is a way to upgrade it.


As such, for your theory to work, one of the following must be true:

Eladrin was wrong. . .not all versions of an Aspect are upgradeable to their final bit.
There are no dominant foci. (this would imply that whoever had made that combined shard of Balance/Earth listed the ingredients wrong, and had put the Earth shard in first)
There's a mystery imbued shard that will upgrade Balance I items without using a Balance/Earth Shard.


Eladrin wasn't wrong, I think he would have corrected himself already by now. I'm sure he enjoys reading our posts, reading our crazy theories and laughing of us missing somethnig so obvious to him. At least, that's I'd do.

Possible, but I'll doubt it for now.

Exactly.

Tallyn
03-07-2008, 11:17 AM
Extending Gol's post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1602336&postcount=2152), with his original text in white:

UPGRADED FULLY:

Weapon
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

Item
1 negative escalation ethereal (negative affinity)
2 positive escalation ethereal (existential stalemate)
3 positive escalation ethereal + negative escalation ethereal = positive escalation ethereal / Existential Stalemate

Weapon
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Air Dominion Material (aspect of lightning)
3 Air Dominion Material + Positive Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Lightning

Weapon
1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice


DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:

Item
1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 air ethereal escalation + earth ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

So why did four of these combinations work and one did not?

Preliminary pass at elemental dominance (if it exists):
Earth
Air
Water (below air, possibly below positive and/or negative)
Positive (below air)
Negative (below positive)


Fire's order is unknown

Ink

Edit 1: Added weapon/item types
Edit 2: Reformatted to make it quotable

One thing, although I lack the ingredients to try, to note is that the other upgrades that were successful had something in common. Tier 1 and Tier 2 the essence/gem were the same. The Balance of land and sky that did not upgrade successfully had a different essence/gem at Tier 1 and Tier 2.

I.e.:
Mineral (success)
Tier 1 = Positive + Material + Dominion
Tier 2 = Earth + Material + Dominion
Tier 3 = (Combination) Positive + Ethereal + Escalation and Earth + Ethereal + Escalation

Balance of Land and Sky (failed)
Tier 1 = Earth + Material + Escalation
Tier 2 = Air + Ethereal + Escalation
Tier 3 = (Combination) Air + Ethereal + Escalation and Earth + Ethereal + Escalation


Just something to note.

Boulderun
03-07-2008, 11:20 AM
the reason why the attempt with land and sky did not work is because the dominate focus of earth on the shard when paired with the first focus of earth resulted in aspect of earth, not aspect of land and sky.

The dominate focus of the shard is supposed to contradict the first focus. If it matched the first focus, it wouldn't recreate the aspect.


He's saying that this theory is incompatible with the "dominant focus" theory. Either one or both are incorrect.

If they are both correct, than a Balance item that starts with Earth affinity can never be upgraded to Balance II, because the supreme shard will always be Earth-dominant.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 11:22 AM
That was disproven with this SUCCESS

I'll say:


Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier.

I don't see why "specials" wouldn't be the trickiest. After all they rely on balance, balance is more complex. They are the wild cards... they aren't even id D&D lore!!:eek: And, after how complex this crafting system is, I'd not be surprised to see one or two more tricks from the Devs 'till the end.

UtherSRG
03-07-2008, 11:27 AM
I already adressed this. He never said that a BoL&S I would reach BoL&S II, he said that every item could gain a tier three special a way or another, period. That is all he said. So, it doesn't mean that BoL&S II will be used to upgrade both BoL&S, that only means that there is a way to upgrade it.




Eladrin wasn't wrong, I think he would have corrected himself already by now. I'm sure he enjoys reading our posts, reading our crazy theories and laughing of us missing somethnig so obvious to him. At least, that's I'd do.

Possible, but I'll doubt it for now.

Exactly.



I agree with you 100%, but I'd expand "At least, that's I'd do." to be "That's what I'd do, plus those who guess correctly might find some extra ingredients in their inventory the next time they log in." 'Cos that's the kind of dev I'd want to be.... someone who gives a very small push to someone who is vocal about a guess that is correct, in order to have the correct answer come out sooner.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 11:29 AM
I agree with you 100%

Cool, support.:D


I'd expand "At least, that's I'd do." to be "That's what I'd do, plus those who guess correctly might find some extra ingredients in their inventory the next time they log in." 'Cos that's the kind of dev I'd want to be.... someone who gives a very small push to someone who is vocal about a guess that is correct, in order to have the correct answer come out sooner.

Why not? ;) Not holding my breath for it though, just having fun speculating. :)

UtherSRG
03-07-2008, 11:41 AM
I agree with you 100%, but I'd expand "At least, that's I'd do." to be "That's what I'd do, plus those who guess correctly might find some extra ingredients in their inventory the next time they log in." 'Cos that's the kind of dev I'd want to be.... someone who gives a very small push to someone who is vocal about a guess that is correct, in order to have the correct answer come out sooner.

Why not? ;) Not holding my breath for it though, just having fun speculating. :)[/QUOTE]

Actually, now that I think of it... I'd probably give some ingredients to vocal pronouncers of both correct and incorrect guessers, as this would speed the process from both ends: swifter ability to test both right and wrong hypothesis.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Actually, now that I think of it... I'd probably give some ingredients to vocal pronouncers of both correct and incorrect guessers, as this would speed the process from both ends: swifter ability to test both right and wrong hypothesis.

That would make it too easy to figure things out.

Vienemen
03-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Not sure if everyone knows it but the marketplace event drops include large ingredients. Guildy got 3 from one spawn night before last. Hopefully we can all gather a bunch this weekend for some more tests.

UtherSRG
03-07-2008, 11:47 AM
That would make it too easy to figure things out.

On the contrary, it would mean folks wouldn't be able to figure out if they are on the right path or not when extra ingredients appear in their inventory.


Not sure if everyone knows it but the marketplace event drops include large ingredients. Guildy got 3 from one spawn night before last. Hopefully we can all gather a bunch this weekend for some more tests.

Bah.... too spammy, and way to may ninjas grabbing the loot.

Vienemen
03-07-2008, 11:49 AM
Bah.... too spammy, and way to may ninjas grabbing the loot.

Not spammy enough and far too few ninjas to keep me out from looking for them.

Snoggy
03-07-2008, 11:58 AM
Tempest Spine, Prison of the Planes, Invaders, Threnal... those are where I can remember ice flensers off the top of my head.


IIRC, some ice flensers show up in Ghosts of Perdition too at some point don't they?

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 12:00 PM
Tier 2 upgrades make 21 combos: 6 pure, 12 para/quasi, and 3 special.

Pure = Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Pos, Neg
Para/Quasi = Smoke, Ash, Magma, etc.
Special = BoLaS, Tempered, Existential Stalemate

Using those descriptions, here is a basic formulae for Tier 3: (Tier 2 Combo) + ? = (Tier 3).

So, draw this table:

Pure
====
* Use a simple shard with the same element from first two upgrades.

Fire I + Fire = Fire II
Water I +Water = Water II
Earth I + Earth = Earth II
Air I + Air = Air II
Pos I + Pos = Pos II
Neg I + Neg = Neg II

Para/Quasi Upgrades:
================
* Create a Tier 3 supershard with the same two elements from first two upgrades. Focii order doesn't matter. Gem/Essence doesn't matter.

Smoke I + Smoke = Smoke II
Ice I + Ice = Ice II
Magma I + Magma = Magma II
Ooze I + Ooze = Ooze II

Lightning I + Lightning = Lightning II
Vacuum I + Vacuum = Vacuum II
Mineral I + Mineral = Mineral II
Dust I + Dust = Dust II
Radiance I + Radiance = Radiance II
Ash I + Ash = Ash II
Steam I + Steam = Steam II
Salt I + Salt = Salt II

Special Upgrades: (Special means OPPOSITE - don't normally exist in D&D)
================================================== ====
* Create a Tier 3 supershard with the OPPOSITE two elements from first two upgrades. Focii order doesn't matter. Gem/Essence doesn't matter.

Balance of Land and Sky + Tempered = (?)
Tempered + Balance of Land and Sky = (?)
Existential Stalemate + Existential Stalemate = Concordant Opposition

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 12:05 PM
Not sure if everyone knows it but the marketplace event drops include large ingredients. Guildy got 3 from one spawn night before last. Hopefully we can all gather a bunch this weekend for some more tests.

Ingredients drop on sets of the same type: one large, one medium and one small, but always the same type at once. I picked up three ingredients a few nights ago (and no, it wasn't ninja lootz, I was standing in the marketplace on my own and two devils spawned and luckily both my destructions hit).

Garth

Missing_Minds
03-07-2008, 12:05 PM
IIRC, some ice flensers show up in Ghosts of Perdition too at some point don't they?

You are correct, and by the same turn about, LotD on Chothulotoungegonebeholdereyedude side as well. I knew I was forgetting where. Emm... there is a quest in the 3rd litany set that has them as well, but I forget which as that set of quests is hardly ever run save for the last.

Omni
03-07-2008, 12:14 PM
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7056/bracerspi0.png

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:14 PM
On the contrary, it would mean folks wouldn't be able to figure out if they are on the right path or not when extra ingredients appear in their inventory.

Makes much more ingrediants though. ;)

jakeelala
03-07-2008, 12:20 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/FusionBlast/LightningIIhammer.jpg

Took two shards of powermer, and 24 ingredimients, and seems... the same as going say fire/fire/fire for incineratimion. it better do twice as much damanage or somemathing to be worth it, grrr....

oh well, are VERY nice dps weapamon any way.

Pos/Dominion/Material
Air/Dominion/Material
Air/Dominion/Material + Pos/Dominion/Material (Air shard in first for sure into crafting device, got lightnaming instead of holy blast as hoping)

Can you combine 2 teir 3 shards ie pos/dom/mat + pos/dom/mat to get a holy blast like you were looking for?

Jaywade
03-07-2008, 12:21 PM
very rarelamally ice flensers do some close range melee attack that can freeze target in block of ice. kargon only ever see in tempest spine ice flensermer twice and once on othermer ice flensamer cant remembamer where.

seen it happen in invaders...and in thrneal .....

Borror0
03-07-2008, 12:21 PM
Can you combine 2 teir 3 shards ie pos/dom/mat + pos/dom/mat to get a holy blast like you were looking for?

You would only need one +/D/M Shard of Supreme Power to do that, but you'd not get Lightning Strike.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 12:24 PM
You would only need one +/D/M Shard of Supreme Power to do that, but you'd not get Lightning Strike.


But you can do:
(+/D/M) + (A/D/M), get Good Burst, and Lightning Strike.

jakeelala
03-07-2008, 12:31 PM
anyone tried combining 3 supreme power shards yet?

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 12:31 PM
The dominate focus of the shard is supposed to contradict the first focus. If it matched the first focus, it wouldn't recreate the aspect.

Indeed, after giving it a lot of thought and (re)checking all the upgrades we've seen - this idea has a lot going for it.

As a crafter, I gotta say I don't like it though, because it means that in order to get 3rd tier bonus effects you are restricted in putting the 1st and 2nd upgrade in 'reverse order' of dominance e.g. my khopesh I luckily put Pos/Earth/Pos+Earth and it worked because Earth trumped Pos on 3rd tier and Pos+Earth combined. If I had put Earth/Pos/Pos+Earth then it might not have worked if your theory holds. I do not believe the devs would have wanted to restrict our options this way, but you never know.

I do prefer the theory that 1st and 2nd tier upgrades do not affect 3rd tier bonus effects, and we just haven't yet discovered which upgrade to put on (again, Tempered is my favorite at the moment) but, at the moment, both ideas are consistent with the evidence so neither cannot be ruled out.

We will not determine which is correct until someone tries another upgrade that contradicts one - so, in the meantime, carry on speculating... :sigh:

Garth

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 12:34 PM
Indeed, after giving it a lot of thought and (re)checking all the upgrades we've seen - this idea has a lot going for it.

As a crafter, I gotta say I don't like it though, because it means that in order to get 3rd tier bonus effects you are restricted in putting the 1st and 2nd upgrade in 'reverse order' of dominance e.g. my khopesh I luckily put Pos/Earth/Pos+Earth and it worked because Earth trumped Pos on 3rd tier and Pos+Earth combined. If I had put Earth/Pos/Pos+Earth then it might not have worked if your theory holds. I do not believe the devs would have wanted to restrict our options this way, but you never know.

I do prefer the theory that 1st and 2nd tier upgrades do not affect 3rd tier bonus effects, and we just haven't yet discovered which upgrade to put on (again, Tempered is my favorite at the moment) but, at the moment, both ideas are consistent with the evidence so neither cannot be ruled out.

We will not determine which is correct until someone tries another upgrade that contradicts one - so, in the meantime, carry on speculating... :sigh:

Garth


ARGH!

That was disproven with this SUCCESS:
============================
1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice

Focus: Air/Water/(Air+Water)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Dom+Dom)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Mat+Mat)

Result = Freezing Ice


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c53/RPGamerd00d/combinedshard.jpg

Eladrin
03-07-2008, 12:48 PM
anyone tried combining 3 supreme power shards yet?
No recipes require more than two supreme power shards to be combined.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 12:50 PM
Eldarin,
Any comment on this post: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1604813&postcount=2341

Feel free to be as cryptic as you want. :)

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 12:56 PM
ARGH!

LOL OK calm down! :) Forgot about that one.

I'm more than happy to go back to what I thought a few days ago (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1597713#post1597713) which you appear to agree with. :) Was just trying to keep an open mind, especially considering the number of times I've been wrong...

Edit: I re-read your picture - I don't agree that shard order matters. I'm far more inclined to go with the dominant shard (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1604521#post1604521) theory.

Garth

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 01:02 PM
LOL OK calm down! :) Forgot about that one.

I'm more than happy to go back to what I thought a few days ago (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1597713#post1597713) which you appear to agree with. :) Was just trying to keep an open mind, especially considering the number of times I've been wrong...

Edit: I re-read your picture - I don't agree that shard order matters. I'm far more inclined to go with the dominant shard (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1604521#post1604521) theory.

Garth

So far, order has determined which Essense/Focii/Gem appears as the descriptor of the combined shard - it has always inherited it from the first shard in the combination.

I'm willing to change my mind if an exception arises, but so far, first shard = what Essence/Focii/Gem is lised on supershard.

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 01:03 PM
That was disproven with this SUCCESS:
============================
1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice

Focus: Air/Water/(Air+Water)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Dom+Dom)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Mat+Mat)

Freezing Ice


Hmmm... ok. I'll buy that. I'll have to admit though, given that some things have have been buggy, it is hard to know if when a theory fails, if it's due to a bug or not, which has me second guessing whether a single fail invalidates any theory. Eladrin stepped up and said in the case of land and sky, that wasn't a bug, which means that the upgrade path was in fact done incorrectly and the earlier theory wasn't correct. What about this one? Everything else has fit into my theory so it's hard to know if this single fail for my theory is a bug, or does it in fact completely invalidate the theory? I think unless a dev steps up on every failed theory and says it isn't a bug that caused the theory to fail, without several fails of any given theory, it's difficult to rely on a single fail as proof that any theory is incorrect.

Grrrrrrr.......... I am frustrated... which is probably bringing a smile to the dev's faces atm. D&D players tend to be creative thinkers who often think outside the box, and this puzzle is testing us well. A little more challenging than we are used to from DDO thus far, but for those who enjoy a good mental challenge, a very nice thing to see indeed. Complicated by the difficulty in obtaining large ingredients to test with furthers this.



Thus far it does seem that the "dominate focus" of any dual imbued shard can be safely assumed by reading the aspect/balance description ... the first one listed has consistantly been the "dominant" focus listed on the shard. However, not sure at this point if a "dominate" focus has a bearing, but if it does, at least we know how it's determined on the shard. I would assume though it has some kind of bearing, or there would be no purpose to listing a "dominate" instead of just listing the aspect/balance created.

Hmmm... for those that have a successful "four focus enchantment" item, do you recall whether you put your item or the dual shard into the altar first?

Maybe the dominate focus of the dual shard has to be put in to the altar in a certain order with the item dependant upon the way the focuses appear on the item. For example if your item has earth then fire = magma maybe putting your earth dominate shard after the item would make it magma II, but if you had say done fire then earth on your item, you'd need to put your earth dominate shard before the item in the altar so that it always comes out either a + b + a or b + a + b where the middle focus is paired with the two end focuses to create the two aspects.

This would be less limiting and would be in keeping with ANY "I" being possible to be upgraded to a "II"... could it be that simple? They do list the element/energy "dominate" focus in the middle of the name on the shard... maybe that is a hint just as the order the focuses were listed in aspect/balance descriptions were a hint as to the focus that would end up being listed on the dual imbued shard.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Hmmm... for those that have a successful "four focus enchantment" item, do you recall whether you put your item or the dual shard into the altar first?


Think about that for a minute.

Has the order of ingredients in the altar made a difference anywhere yet? Would that make things nearly impossible to figure out? Would a developer really code that?

I'd play the Lotto before I'd bet on that. :)

(No offense intended to any Lotto players out there... :) )

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 01:09 PM
So far, order has determined which Essense/Focii/Gem appears as the descriptor of the combined shard - it has always inherited it from the first shard in the combination.

I'm willing to change my mind if an exception arises, but so far, first shard = what Essence/Focii/Gem is lised on supershard.

Raidon posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602378#post1602378) and here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602177#post1602177) that the 2nd shard (Earth) was picked and not the first (Air). This supports the dominant focus theory.

I can attest, from witnessing two multi-shard tier 3 upgrades, and doing one myself, that you don't make mistakes when putting shards in the altar - you double/triple check each step. If Raidon said he put the shards in that order, then he put them in that order.

Garth

jakeelala
03-07-2008, 01:15 PM
No recipes require more than two supreme power shards to be combined.

ok, has anyone tried combining 2 imbued shards or 2 imbued great shards for better effects?

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 01:15 PM
So far, order has determined which Essense/Focii/Gem appears as the descriptor of the combined shard - it has always inherited it from the first shard in the combination.

I'm willing to change my mind if an exception arises, but so far, first shard = what Essence/Focii/Gem is lised on supershard.

The order the two shards were put into the altar when combining them into a single shard was tested. It was previously suspected as you suggest that the first shard placed into the altar was the one that imparted the "dominate" focus. This was later dismissed when someone made a dual shard that ended up having the focus of the shard that was put in second as the "dominate" focus of the dual imbued shard.

What we have thus far seen to be true and yet to be disproven is that in the description of an apsect/balance, the focus listed first ends up being the "dominate focus".

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 01:16 PM
Raidon posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602378#post1602378) and here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602177#post1602177) that the 2nd shard (Earth) was picked and not the first (Air). This supports the dominant focus theory.

I can attest, from witnessing two multi-shard tier 3 upgrades, and doing one myself, that you don't make mistakes when putting shards in the altar - you double/triple check each step. If Raidon said he put the shards in that order, then he put them in that order.

Garth

Meaning absolutely no disrespect to Raidon, as long as he is a human being and not a divine being, he could have made a mistake. :)
However, I will take your info into consideration.

To confirm: Does the item have +3 Cha skills (Air), or +3 Wis skills (Earth)?

Note, in D&D, there is no dominance. Not only that, but "specials" don't exist. I could see that rules for specials ignore the otherwise "standard" rule that first shard = dominant shard.

AquilaNav
03-07-2008, 01:17 PM
Just a thought, if there is an elemental dominance as has been suggested with Neg at the bottom, this would mean that it would be impossible to get an third tier neg effect on an item using two different foci. This would be incredibly foolish of the dev's to do. I suspect that it is the simpler route of the first place shard determining the dominant effect granted by the third altar. (meaning that Raidon, as cool of a guy as he is, made a mistake.)

Just my 2 cents.

removed some unecessary stuff.

Shima-ra
03-07-2008, 01:33 PM
We appreciate the last comment Eladrin, it would be tragic to waste 36 large for something that is bound to fail.

Inkblack
03-07-2008, 01:34 PM
OK, I've tried to look at all the different theories, and I suspect that they can be boiled down to these:

The Dominant Focus Theory:
When combining two Imbued Shards, the dominant focus' shard will be applied to the third upgrade.
Implications: Final choices of third tier upgrades with bonus abilities is limited. The order of placing shards in the altar is not important.
Arguments for: The earth/air combination reported earlier.
Arguments against: The lack of a screenshot, and the fact that the order hasn't mattered anywhere else.

The Focus Order Theory:
When combining two Imbued Shards, the first shard placed in the altar becomes dominant.
Implications: Final choices of third tier upgrades with bonus abilities includes both focuses.
Arguments for: Order hasn't mattered, and there is no screenshot.
Arguments against: The earth/air combination reported earlier.

The Balance Theory:
The three balanced aspects (Balance of Land and Sky, Tempered, and Existential Stalemate) follow a different upgrade path than the other non-pure upgrades. A combination of the other two elements not used must be applied.
Implications: We can't apply what works for the other combinations to them.
Arguments for: The one combination didn't work, when other theories say it should have.
Arguments against:
If the Dominant Focus theory holds, then some combinations cannot be upgraded? (not sure this is a valid argument)
Existential Stalemate did follow the other rules, if only because it is one dimensional (pos-neg vs. air-earth and fire-water).

All we need is for someone to:
Prove/Disprove the Focus Order/Dominant Focus theories by reversing the order of Imbued Shards that were already tested -- just not the Earth-Air one. Don't forget to take screenshots!
Test the Balance Theory by upgrading a Tempered item with a BoLaS Shard, or a BoLaS item with a Tempered shard.

Did I miss any theories?

Ink

PS -- I see you guys are way ahead of me while I spent my time typing and reading...

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 01:34 PM
We appreciate the last comment Eladrin, it would be tragic to waste 36 large for something that is bound to fail.

Actually all you'd lose is the power cell. When gems fail to combine, you don't lose them, your power cell just gets depleted.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 01:44 PM
This is a great thread.

In fact, I'd even say its a ...

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c53/RPGamerd00d/legendarythread-2.jpg

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 01:48 PM
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7056/bracerspi0.png


Hey Omni... have you tested this to see if the guards stack or not? Since they are all good, I suspect not, but I'm curious to know for certain.

Boulderun
03-07-2008, 01:49 PM
Actually all you'd lose is the power cell. When gems fail to combine, you don't lose them, your power cell just gets depleted.

They'd probably be stuck with a bound, imbued supreme shard containing a recipe they have no other use for.

I think the question of "how do you make A go into B instead of B into A" deserves a straight answer.

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 02:05 PM
The Dominant Focus Theory vs. The Focus Order Theory

I'm going to consider the Focus Order Theory disproven until someone can prove otherwise.

I find no reason to disregard someone's reported findings. So until then, I'm going to work under the assumption that the order you place Shards in the altar has no bearing on the final outcome.

I'm going to suggest we take this as a failed theory, save for those people who feel like corroborating the previous evidence against it.


If the Dominant Focus theory holds, then some combinations cannot be upgraded? (not sure this is a valid argument)

How is this not a valid agument:

1) Eladrin says all items at Tier II can be upgraded to provide a Tier III bonus.
2) Dominant Shard Theory states one of the two Foci in a combine shard is going to count and it's always going to be the same one.
3) Balance Theory states that you have to have a certain Tier I <--> Combined Shard Focus combination to get a Tier III bonus.

Since the Combined Shard Focus is fixed for all combinations, this means that you have to have a specific Tier I ability in order to get a Tier III bonus. This directly contradicts what Eladrin said, because it means that certain items (the ones with the wrong Tier I ability) cannot be upgraded.

Mad_Bombardier
03-07-2008, 02:13 PM
Hey Omni... have you tested this to see if the guards stack or not? Since they are all good, I suspect not, but I'm curious to know for certain.An EXCELLENT question. :) They probably don't stack. But, seeing as 50% for 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d8 are hardly overpowering, I kinda hope the do stack. :)

Desteria
03-07-2008, 02:13 PM
now the question i'd really like to know is...
What happens if you have more then one cocordent oppisition, (Existential Stalemate II), item is equiped, do they both function ie fiering twice as often, or do they not stack.... saying this because could picture my sorc/cleric with a SP item, an HP item, an imunity item, and if it is the same on weapons 2 weapons, 5 x C.O. should mean one fieres every second hit on average temp hp every 4 sp every 4, that would make you a very durable nerly botomless SP killing/healign machine add in the torc and DQ bracers for even more insanity and fun times.
Devs dont seem to beabel to answere this one wich is kind of frustrating as for a DnD based game you should beable to look up stacking rules in the books :( anoying because to test it you need to make what if it fails is basicaly a waste item sicne all your bonus abilities will be identical, and 24 larges ingredants suks to waste on testing, I also fell the same way about the poor guy who failed the BoLaS upgrade :(

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 02:19 PM
What happens if you have more then one Concordant Opposition item equipped. Do they both work? i.e. fire twice as often? Or do they not stack? If I had multiple items and (if it is the same on weapons) 2 weapons, upwards of 5 x C.O. That should mean one fires every second hit on average. Temp hp + SPs every 4th hit, that would make you a very durable nearly bottomless SP killing/healing machine. Add in the torc and DQ bracers for even more insanity and fun times.


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c53/RPGamerd00d/Funny_baby_ORly.gif

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 02:21 PM
1) Eladrin says all items at Tier II can be upgraded to provide a Tier III bonus.
2) Dominant Shard Theory states one of the two Foci in a combine shard is going to count and it's always going to be the same one.
3) Balance Theory states that you have to have a certain Tier I <--> Combined Shard Focus combination to get a Tier III bonus.

Since the Combined Shard Focus is fixed for all combinations, this means that you have to have a specific Tier I ability in order to get a Tier III bonus. This directly contradicts what Eladrin said, because it means that certain items (the ones with the wrong Tier I ability) cannot be upgraded.

1, 2, 3 agreed.

Your last comment, not necessarily.

The combined shard "dominate focus" is "fixed" from what we have seen thus far, but that does not mean you have to have a specific tier I upgrade.

Example: If the dominate focus shard is place on one side of the item you are upgrading or the other in the altar, the "middle" focus could either become focus 1 or focus 2. If the middle focus is the one the "dominate" focus is paired with to create the aspects, any aspect "I" could be upgraded successfully into a "II" as Eladrin has stated.

We've tried altar order when combining the shards, but not when combining the combined shard with the item. Just a theory, but it would imply there are possiblities of all "I"'s becoming "II"'s, even with the dual shard having a "dominate focus".

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 02:22 PM
What happens if you have more then one cocordent oppisition ... 2 weapons

I'm actually kind of skeptical that Tier Three Bonuses are the same on items and weapons.

We've already seen that Mineral is Transmuting/Keen/Slicing which just doesn't make sense on items. Nor do the Lightning and Ice ones (though they'd be easier to make into "guards").

It could be that Concordant Opposition on a weapon does something completely different.

(Meaning, we're going to have to wait til people start finding Essences of cleansing to know what the answer to your question is.)

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 02:24 PM
1, 2, 3 true.

Your last comment, not necessarily.

The only way it's not true is if you do away with the "Every aspect has one and only one third tier bonus effect it can be upgraded to."

Which is possible, I suppose. But I'm not going to be the one to test it out. I'm having enough trouble gathering ingredients for my one item.

oronisi
03-07-2008, 02:26 PM
Raidon posted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602378#post1602378) and here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602177#post1602177) that the 2nd shard (Earth) was picked and not the first (Air). This supports the dominant focus theory.

I can attest, from witnessing two multi-shard tier 3 upgrades, and doing one myself, that you don't make mistakes when putting shards in the altar - you double/triple check each step. If Raidon said he put the shards in that order, then he put them in that order.

Garth


I'd have to disagree. The sheer number of wrongly crafted items proves that people do make mistakes. I know some people that have made at least 2 mistakes on the greensteel recipes alone. Not to mention the person that posted here on this thread that messed up the tier 1 upgrade and then proceeded to mess up the tier 2 upgrade. Using your logic, that person would have checked 2 or 3 times on the tier 3 upgrade since they already knew you could mess up....but that person still messed up.

SneakThief
03-07-2008, 02:29 PM
Ok ... I have enough larges now for a 2nd level upgrade (on timer till Sunday though)... Would people rather see Ash II, or Test the Dominant Focus theory? I guess I could do both, but if the Dominant focus isnt true, I really dont want Deathblock ... though, there are wose things.

Ash II ... or ... Test Dominant Focus?

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 02:35 PM
Ok ... I have enough larges now for a 2nd level upgrade (on timer till Sunday though)... Would people rather see Ash II, or Test the Dominant Focus theory? I guess I could do both, but if the Dominant focus isnt true, I really dont want Deathblock ... though, there are wose things.

Ash II ... or ... Test Dominant Focus?


My belief is that Ash II is a "given", since the discovery of Freezing Ice.

So, go for Test Dominant Focus.

Tallyn
03-07-2008, 02:37 PM
Hmm, my vote would be for Ash II :)

Jaywade
03-07-2008, 02:39 PM
yeah like to see what ASH II is

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 02:41 PM
Hmm, my vote would be for Ash II :)


yeah like to see what ASH II is

I concur. I'd rather see what all the abilities are first.

Given the options.

If someone's making another item that matches something we've already got anyway, then yeah, test the theory.

UtherSRG
03-07-2008, 02:44 PM
Ok ... I have enough larges now for a 2nd level upgrade (on timer till Sunday though)... Would people rather see Ash II, or Test the Dominant Focus theory? I guess I could do both, but if the Dominant focus isnt true, I really dont want Deathblock ... though, there are wose things.

Ash II ... or ... Test Dominant Focus?


My belief is that Ash II is a "given", since the discovery of Freezing Ice.

So, go for Test Dominant Focus.

I was going to give the same answer, but for a different reason: I am in the process of creating Ash II on a weapon, and then on an item.

Donations of large ingredients welcome.... and taken in trade for items from my sales list: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=127481

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 03:01 PM
Ok ... I have enough larges now for a 2nd level upgrade (on timer till Sunday though)... Would people rather see Ash II, or Test the Dominant Focus theory? I guess I could do both, but if the Dominant focus isnt true, I really dont want Deathblock ... though, there are wose things.

Ash II ... or ... Test Dominant Focus?

Do both (and more). Create two shards, one FOM and one -OM. Combine them to form your FOM/Ash supershard, but put the -OM on the left and the FOM on the right, thus proving whether the dominant shard theory is correct or not. Combine your FOM with your existing item and get your +? Fire Resistance.

This way you add three new things to the Global Knowledge:

1. Whther dominant focus theory is correct
2. What ASH II is
3. What FOM Tier 3 is (+? Inherent Fire Resistance?)

Garth

p.s. Out of interest why are you going FOM and not FEM - I would probably say +20 HP is better than inherent fire resistance, unless you like taking swims in lava.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 03:10 PM
p.s. Out of interest why are you going FOM and not FEM - I would probably say +20 HP is better than inherent fire resistance, unless you like taking swims in lava.

Abott Inferno maybe?
Part 4+5 of Shroud? He might not like all those fireballs to the face!
:)

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 03:11 PM
My goggles are currently:

material, opposition, negative
ethereal, escalation, positive

as far as the attributes bestowed by the altar of devastation are concerned independant of everything else, I'd like to go:

ethereal, escalation, positive


It is going to be some time before I have the ingredients necessary to do a third tier upgrade... I currently have six large ingredients and two supreme shards. I simply don't know enough about three and four focus enchantments to decide for certain yet what to do. If I have to do something besides ethereal, escalation, positive to get concordant opposition, even with 100&#37; chance I would end up with concordant opposition, I'm not sure I'd sacrifice one for the other... even though it may end up that I get no further enchantments beyond the two focus one.

I suppose I could go for ethereal, dominion, negative instead for the superior void lore, since I already have superior healing lore on my gloves from the Reaver. That would give me a chance at concordant opposition, which would be nice for me as a Cleric. Or, I could just go for the sup healing lore on the goggles and get rid of my gloves entirely since that is the only thing I use them for... I have improved spell pen VII and improved potency VII on my belt of the seven ideals, which is 10% more effective on heals than the gloves, and has spell pen to boot. Hmmm... too many decisions. I'm a Libra... I'm not good with making decisions when there are many good choices to be had. = P

I could go fire (greater fire resist), pos (improved regen to get me out of incap situations when no one in the pug can heal the cleric) resulting in radiance I, then pos again for the +3 cha and other 100 sp on something else. As a Cleric who has a real beef with undead in particular, I'd like to see radiance II. Provided I can get a cleansing essence, I may go that route with a second accessory...

SneakThief
03-07-2008, 03:24 PM
My belief is that Ash II is a "given", since the discovery of Freezing Ice.

So, go for Test Dominant Focus.

Um ... if its a "given" then what do you think it is? Because the clickie on it is a debuff ... not a damage spell. I really at this point cant even start to speculate what Ash II on either a weapon or item will do.


Do both (and more).
<clip>
p.s. Out of interest why are you going FOM and not FEM - I would probably say +20 HP is better than inherent fire resistance, unless you like taking swims in lava.

The character its on already has 450 HP ... 20 more really isnt going to help that much ... and the character has been plagued by fire since level 1 ... so 10 more fire resist will save MUCH more than 20 hitpoints (stupid repeating delayed blast fire balls). I really dont want to end up with Deathblock. It wouldnt be the end of the world, but I have plenty of deathblock items and there are ZERO 40 fire resist items. If I was going to test the Dominant Focus theory it would be on my cleric/rog with the Concordant opposition, because I actually WANT the INT skills from Neg. I only have enough large to do one upgrade right now ... need about 16 more for the 2nd.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 03:29 PM
If I was going to test the Dominant Focus theory it would be on my cleric/rog with the Concordant opposition, because I actually WANT the INT skills from Neg. I only have enough large to do one upgrade right now ... need about 16 more for the 2nd.

As I'm sure you're aware, if dominant shard theory is true, then you can't get INT skills from your +/- combination, because positive will trump negative and you'll end up with CHA skills :( Still useful for UMD though if your cleric/rog has that.

Garth

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 03:31 PM
Um ... if its a "given" then what do you think it is?

What I meant by "given" is that we can do the upgrade without failure because we now know for sure the formula.

But, since people are curious, go for it! :)

TKnor
03-07-2008, 03:31 PM
I'm going to be working on adding the synergistic effects of Invasion/Subjugation and Invasion/Subjugation/Devastation+Devastation to the DDO Crafting Helper Page (http://www.randojones.com/miscellany/ddocrafting.aspx) (working on building the XML now) and I was curious if the crafting "leaders" have come up with a name for them yet?

Right now I'm calling them "Lieutenant Synergies" and "Tyrant Synergies" based off the first two screenshots I saw of a Subjugation and a Devastation upgraded item's names.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 03:32 PM
I'm going to be working on adding the synergistic effects of Invasion/Subjugation and Invasion/Subjugation/Devastation+Devastation to the DDO Crafting Helper Page (http://www.randojones.com/miscellany/ddocrafting.aspx) (working on building the XML now) and I was curious if the crafting "leaders" have come up with a name for them yet?

Right now I'm calling them "Lieutenant Synergies" and "Tyrant Synergies" based off the first two screenshots I saw of a Subjugation and a Devastation upgraded item's names.

Not bad.

I'd go with calling them Powers, though. "Lieutenant Powers" and "Tyrant Powers".

Borror0
03-07-2008, 03:35 PM
I was curious if the crafting "leaders" have come up with a name for them yet?

Welcome to the wonderful world of fan-sites where naming is a PAIN!

Inkblack
03-07-2008, 03:36 PM
How is this not a valid agument:

1) Eladrin says all items at Tier II can be upgraded to provide a Tier III bonus.
2) Dominant Shard Theory states one of the two Foci in a combine shard is going to count and it's always going to be the same one.
3) Balance Theory states that you have to have a certain Tier I <--> Combined Shard Focus combination to get a Tier III bonus.

Since the Combined Shard Focus is fixed for all combinations, this means that you have to have a specific Tier I ability in order to get a Tier III bonus. This directly contradicts what Eladrin said, because it means that certain items (the ones with the wrong Tier I ability) cannot be upgraded.

The Balance Theory seems to mean slightly different things to the two of us. Here's what I said before:

The three balanced aspects (Balance of Land and Sky, Tempered, and Existential Stalemate) follow a different upgrade path than the other non-pure upgrades. A combination of the other two elements not used must be applied.
I probably should have said that BoLaS requires Tempered in Tier 3 for a bonus, and Tempered requires BoLaS for an upgrade. That is a much simpler way to illustrate it.

The argument I said might not be valid (I just haven't followed it through) is that:

If the Dominant Focus theory holds, then some combinations cannot be upgraded?
I would say that it isn't necessarily valid because there is always a way to upgrade based on the definition I posted (paraphrasing others work). I think previous arguments were basically differences in terminology, which I was trying to address.

The argument that the Tier 1 upgrade drives the availability of the Tier 3 upgrade, Eladrin's post, and the successful Air/Water/Air upgrade indeed disproves your definition, as noted by the person that proposed it.

Ink

Dworkin_of_Amber
03-07-2008, 03:41 PM
One other question, have any Sorcs verified if the Elemental Spell Power (+50 or +100) are doubled for a Sorc?
We know that Wizardry VI = 300 SP for a Sorc... so would +EE // +EE // +EE or AEE // AEE // AEE give 450 or 600 SP for a Sorcerer?

Desteria
03-07-2008, 03:45 PM
I'm actually kind of skeptical that Tier Three Bonuses are the same on items and weapons.

We've already seen that Mineral is Transmuting/Keen/Slicing which just doesn't make sense on items. Nor do the Lightning and Ice ones (though they'd be easier to make into "guards").

It could be that Concordant Opposition on a weapon does something completely different.

(Meaning, we're going to have to wait til people start finding Essences of cleansing to know what the answer to your question is.)

I kind of agree it is very possibel weapons and items area difrent though for stalment thay area the same on both, and in the PM i sent trying to find out from a dev the answere was 'I cant tell you' BUT some of the text did seam to indicate that it migth be the same for weapons.

TKnor
03-07-2008, 03:47 PM
Not bad.

I'd go with calling them Powers, though. "Lieutenant Powers" and "Tyrant Powers".

Powers vs. Synergies?

What about Lieutenant & Tyrant vs. something else?

I know my Subjugation upgrade named my longbow "Great Commander". Are all the Devastation upgrades named "Tyrant" or do they vary as well?

Thoughts?

Desteria
03-07-2008, 03:52 PM
One other question, have any Sorcs verified if the Elemental Spell Power (+50 or +100) are doubled for a Sorc?
We know that Wizardry VI = 300 SP for a Sorc... so would +EE // +EE // +EE or AEE // AEE // AEE give 450 or 600 SP for a Sorcerer?

I can varifie my sorc gains 300 SP from taking her bracers on and off
They have both Elemetal spell powers on them for 150 base and NO Wiz, (I have skiver so I grabed hp at level 1).
SO yes they 100% dubble for a sroc.

Boulderun
03-07-2008, 03:52 PM
One other question, have any Sorcs verified if the Elemental Spell Power (+50 or +100) are doubled for a Sorc?

Yes.

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 03:53 PM
I'm going to be working on adding the synergistic effects of Invasion/Subjugation and Invasion/Subjugation/Devastation+Devastation to the DDO Crafting Helper Page (http://www.randojones.com/miscellany/ddocrafting.aspx) (working on building the XML now) and I was curious if the crafting "leaders" have come up with a name for them yet?

Right now I'm calling them "Lieutenant Synergies" and "Tyrant Synergies" based off the first two screenshots I saw of a Subjugation and a Devastation upgraded item's names.

I asked Eladrin a question awhile back in a pm and in his response he referred to the aspect "I" and "II" as "enchantments", so that's what I've been running with. Since there are two, three, and four focus ones, I've steered away from calling them "aspect" enchantments, because although two focuses/an aspect do seem to form both "I" and "II", there are also three focus enchantments and the term "aspect" isn't inclusive of that. I have steered away from calling them by altar name or titles associated with altars because both the three and four focus enchantments are formed at the altar of devastation, and something in the title needs to set them apart from each other because they are different from one another. Given all of that, I've settled on referring to them as 2,3, and 4 focus enchantments.

Inkblack
03-07-2008, 03:54 PM
I'm going to be working on adding the synergistic effects of Invasion/Subjugation and Invasion/Subjugation/Devastation+Devastation to the DDO Crafting Helper Page (http://www.randojones.com/miscellany/ddocrafting.aspx) (working on building the XML now) and I was curious if the crafting "leaders" have come up with a name for them yet?

Right now I'm calling them "Lieutenant Synergies" and "Tyrant Synergies" based off the first two screenshots I saw of a Subjugation and a Devastation upgraded item's names.

I would name them after the altar that they are generated. It doesn't exactly roll off of the tongue, but it is descriptive.

Altar of Subjugation Bonus Effects
Altar of Devastation Bonus Effects

Ink

Ironwind
03-07-2008, 03:54 PM
UPGRADED FULLY:

Weapon
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

Item
1 negative Escalation Ethereal (negative affinity)
2 positive Escalation Ethereal(existential stalemate)
3 positive Escalation Ethereal + negative Escalation Ethereal = positive escalation ethereal / Existential Stalemate

Weapon
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Air Dominion Material (aspect of lightning)
3 Air Dominion Material + Positive Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Lightning

Weapon
1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice


DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:

Item
1 earth escalation Material (earth affinity)
2 air escalation Ethereal (balance of land and sky)
3 air escalation Ethereal + earth escalation Ethereal = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky


So I think I have the answer (but doesn't everyone). :rolleyes:

Take a look at the Quote Box above and pay particular attention to the color coded text.

Notice the only thing in red?
Notice the break in the pattern from all the green and yellow?
---------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that the very unfortunate failure of the double combine lies in the fact that ESSENCES in tier 1 and tier 2 do not match.

I do not think that the two Tier 3 Essences have to match 1 & 2 but they have to match *each other*
I also think that the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Essences must match to achieve a successful Tier 3 super effect.

ps. forgive me if this has been said already. it was 4 hours between when i started typing this and finished typing this. damn real life office job!!!


EDIT:
oops. corrected my language usage.
gems, essences, aspects. so many words! brain so small.

maddmatt70
03-07-2008, 03:57 PM
Do both (and more). Create two shards, one FOM and one -OM. Combine them to form your FOM/Ash supershard, but put the -OM on the left and the FOM on the right, thus proving whether the dominant shard theory is correct or not. Combine your FOM with your existing item and get your +? Fire Resistance.

This way you add three new things to the Global Knowledge:

1. Whther dominant focus theory is correct
2. What ASH II is
3. What FOM Tier 3 is (+? Inherent Fire Resistance?)

Garth

p.s. Out of interest why are you going FOM and not FEM - I would probably say +20 HP is better than inherent fire resistance, unless you like taking swims in lava.


I recently tried -OM/+EE/(+EE/-OM). i was able to make the Supreme +EE and the Supreme -OM. I tried to combine the 2 with an energy cell and it failed. My next attempt will be to make a -EE supreme shard, which i know will combine into the final Shard but im not sure whether the final combination will result in concordant opposotion. Just to add more information, i tried it twice swapping the order pos/neg/cell then neg/pos/cell.

Should he still do that after this finding?

SneakThief
03-07-2008, 03:58 PM
As I'm sure you're aware, if dominant shard theory is true, then you can't get INT skills from your +/- combination, because positive will trump negative and you'll end up with CHA skills :( Still useful for UMD though if your cleric/rog has that.

Garth
Yeah ... thats why I would be testing the theory on that item ... INT skills would be the ideal result ... CHA is fine if I cant get INT ... either way the SP are the real point :D

EspyLacopa
03-07-2008, 03:59 PM
Which is Dominant: Air or Negative?

Thinking about going for -MO // AEE // (AEE/-EE) on my goggles, get the extra 300 SP, blindness immunity, disease immunity, as well as whatever the Vacuum II bonus is. Just wondering which is Dominant now.

Ironwind
03-07-2008, 04:01 PM
I recently tried -OM/+EE/(+EE/-OM). i was able to make the Supreme +EE and the Supreme -OM. I tried to combine the 2 with an energy cell and it failed. My next attempt will be to make a -EE supreme shard, which i know will combine into the final Shard but im not sure whether the final combination will result in concordant opposotion. Just to add more information, i tried it twice swapping the order pos/neg/cell then neg/pos/cell.

This only confirms my hypothesis in my previous post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1605415&postcount=2401)
Notice that the shards he attempted to combine had different ESSENCE. (look at the quote above in red)
Luckily for him the Altar wouldn't even combine the shards and he didn't lose any ingredients.

Inkblack
03-07-2008, 04:03 PM
Which is Dominant: Air or Negative?

Thinking about going for -MO // AEE // (AEE/-EE) on my goggles, get the extra 300 SP, blindness immunity, disease immunity, as well as whatever the Vacuum II bonus is. Just wondering which is Dominant now.

If it is strictly hierarchical, then air is dominant over negative.

Past examples show air is dominant over positive, and positive is dominant over negative.

Ink

SneakThief
03-07-2008, 04:08 PM
Should he still do that after this finding?

The third tier gems/essences will still be identical on mine. Just the foci will be different. That has seemed to work in each case. I didnt plan it that way, but if Im gambling between 2 effects, it just happened that the effects I would chose are the same Gem/Essence.

Zaodon
03-07-2008, 04:25 PM
So I think I have the answer (but doesn't everyone). :rolleyes:

Take a look at the Quote Box above and pay particular attention to the color coded text.

Notice the only thing in red?
Notice the break in the pattern from all the green and yellow?
---------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that the very unfortunate failure of the double combine lies in the fact that ESSENCES in tier 1 and tier 2 do not match.

I do not think that the two Tier 3 Essences have to match 1 & 2 but they have to match *each other*
I also think that the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Essences must match to achieve a successful Tier 3 super effect.

ps. forgive me if this has been said already. it was 4 hours between when i started typing this and finished typing this. damn real life office job!!!


EDIT:
oops. corrected my language usage.
gems, essences, aspects. so many words! brain so small.


Beat ya to it !
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1604565&postcount=2315

Neener neener!
:D

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 04:47 PM
I have come up with a new theory as well - and I'm pretty sure I'm right. Ignore all my other posts.

I represented the upgrades as four sequences of three letter strings and then converted each character to it's ASCII equivalent and summed them then averaged them:

e.g.

Successful Weapon:
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

becomes

PDM + EDM + EOE + POE

which is

P 80 + E 68 + M 77
E 69 + D 68 + M 77
E 69 + O 79 + E 69
P 80 + O 79 + E 69

which comes to an average of 221 in total!

Now - taking this for each of the upgrades in turn:

PDM + EDM + EOE + POE = 221 (success)
NEE + PEE + PEE + NEE = 217 (success)
PDM + ADM + ADM + PDM = 217.5 (success)
ADM + WDM + ADM + WDM = 221 (success)
EEM + AEE + AEE + EEE = 207 (failure)

As you can see, there is a clear correlation between the sum of the ASCII values of the shards - it would appear that as long as you keep your 'ASCII count' above 210 then you are guaranteed success.

I recommend that before anyone proceeds with any more supreme tyrant upgrades, they check that it's going to work by following this procedure I can't beleive the devs didn't think we would spot this! Ha - score one for the players!!! :)

Regards,

Garth

p.s. the endless stream of theories based on FOUR results is getting amusing... how about we just wait for a few more upgrades and then work it out then! :)

Borror0
03-07-2008, 05:01 PM
it would appear that as long as you keep your 'ASCII count' above 210 then you are guaranteed success.

Er... not sure abotu the whole theory... but 210, why 210?

maddmatt70
03-07-2008, 05:02 PM
p.s. the endless stream of theories based on FOUR results is getting amusing... how about we just wait for a few more upgrades and then work it out then! :)

Well there was a 5th result which was posted which hopefully cleared up some of the theories. Phase 1: -om Phase 2: +EE. Phase 3: supreme Shard +EE + Supreme Shard -OM resulted in failure to combine the shards.. Undoubtably it will become more obvious with more successes and failures.. It sucks for the people who had to use ingredients for this though..

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 05:07 PM
Er... not sure abotu the whole theory... but 210, why 210?

Doh it's OBVIOUS!

Take the name of the Dev responsible for the design:

ELADRIN

Convert his characters to ascii and average them:

average ( 101 + 108 + 97 + 100 + 114 + 105 + 110 ) = 105

Then, because you have to use TWO shards in the Altar of Devastation, you multiply this by 2 - to give 210.

I can't believe you missed that Borror0...

Garth

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 05:12 PM
Well there was a 5th result which was posted which hopefully cleared up some of the theories. Phase 1: -om Phase 2: +EE. Phase 3: supreme Shard +EE + Supreme Shard -OM resulted in failure to combine the shards.. Undoubtably it will become more obvious with more successes and failures.. It sucks for the people who had to use ingredients for this though..

Ok I carried out my theory on this result:

N (78) O (79) M (77)
P (80) E (69) E (69)
P (80) E (69) E (69)
N (78) O (79) M (77)

Unfortunately the 'ASCII index' for this combination is 226 - which is above the magic 'ELADRIN Theshold' of 210, which kinda upsets the theory... :( Unless there is a maximum threshold... perhaps about 225????!???

Anyway, I'm sticking with my theory anyway - because I suspect that whoever did that upgrade must have just remembered what they put in incorrectly, because it's really easy to make a mistake like that when combining ingredients. :)

Garth

Borror0
03-07-2008, 05:16 PM
I can't believe you missed that Borror0...

Yeah, because it is that obvious.:rolleyes:

Eladrin
03-07-2008, 05:18 PM
piloto = 110.5
eladrin = 105
-----
215.5

Borror0
03-07-2008, 05:22 PM
Anyway, I'm sticking with my theory anyway - because I suspect that whoever did that upgrade must have just remembered what they put in incorrectly, because it's really easy to make a mistake like that when combining ingredients.

The only reason it failed was the usage of two non-identical shard (I mean that they differ of more than the focus).

Borror0
03-07-2008, 05:23 PM
115.5

You mean 225,5?:D

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 05:34 PM
Not a theory... just an observation

When we combine two shards into one, two titles are created. The first title gives the name of the essence and gem common to both shards, and picks a focus to list. How does it pick that focus? We know that the shard does not pick which focus is listed based on the order the shards are put into the altar, so how do we determine what focus will end up being listed? This focus the shard picks appears to be the one it uses for determining what is imparted to it at the altar of devastation, so a clue has to be somewhere to help us discern this so we don't end up with a combined shard with a focus other than we intended to be dominate.

The only visable clue I have seen thus far to determine what focus the shard picks to favor is in the description on the aspects/balances. Without fail, thus far the focus listed first on the description for the aspect/balance we are creating when combining the shards ends up being the focus the shard "favors" in the first title.

Now when making a list of all these descriptions and noting which focus was listed first in each case, a heirarcy of elements/energies can be found:

earth when present in one of the two shards always results in being the dominate one listed
air when present in one of the two shards is dominate to everything but earth
fire when present in one of the two shards is dominate to everything but earth and air
water when present in one of the two shards is dominate to everything but earth, air, and fire
positive when present in one of the two shards is dominate only to negative
negative when present in one of the two shards has no dominance at all over any other element/energy

I don't know if this has any bearing, but it may help when formulating theories.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 05:36 PM
piloto = 110.5
eladrin = 105
-----
215.5

Ah it makes even more sense now:

the average of Eladrin and Pilato is:

Eladrin - Average(101 + 108 + 97 + 100 + 114 + 105 + 110) = 105
Piloto - Average(112 + 105 + 108 + 111 + 116 + 111) = 110.5

Sum = 215.5 so as long as you stay above this number you're fine. (Phew - Kargon cut it fine with his warhammer!)

Garth

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 05:39 PM
Not a theory... just an observation

...

Now when making a list of all these descriptions and noting which focus was listed first in each case, a heirarcy of elements/energies can be found:

This has already been discussed here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1604521#post1604521) and is the crux of the 'dominant focus' theory that we are hoping can be tested next time someone performs a mixed focus supreme tyrant upgrade.

Garth

p.s. We back to real discussion now? :)

oronisi
03-07-2008, 05:39 PM
So I think I have the answer (but doesn't everyone). :rolleyes:

Take a look at the Quote Box above and pay particular attention to the color coded text.

Notice the only thing in red?
Notice the break in the pattern from all the green and yellow?
---------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that the very unfortunate failure of the double combine lies in the fact that ESSENCES in tier 1 and tier 2 do not match.

I do not think that the two Tier 3 Essences have to match 1 & 2 but they have to match *each other*
I also think that the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Essences must match to achieve a successful Tier 3 super effect.

ps. forgive me if this has been said already. it was 4 hours between when i started typing this and finished typing this. damn real life office job!!!


EDIT:
oops. corrected my language usage.
gems, essences, aspects. so many words! brain so small.


That would go against what Eladarin's post that every 'magma I' can be successfully upgraded to 'magma II'.

Ironwind
03-07-2008, 05:58 PM
That would go against what Eladarin's post that every 'magma I' can be successfully upgraded to 'magma II'.

How do you figure that?

I currently have a sword that is:
Altar of Invasion :: Fire Escalation Material
Altar of Subjugation :: Earth Dominion Material
Magma I
When I make the next upgrade with:
Altar of Devastation :: Fire Escalation Material & Earth Dominion Material
I will get Magma II

As long as everything is Material, I should be golden.
That's the hypothesis.
I'll let you know when I finish collection large ingredients.

Jaywade
03-07-2008, 06:05 PM
How do you figure that?

I currently have a sword that is:
Altar of Invasion :: Fire Escalation Material
Altar of Subjugation :: Earth Dominion Material
Magma I
When I make the next upgrade with:
Altar of Devastation :: Fire Escalation Material & Earth Dominion Material
I will get Magma II

As long as everything is Material, I should be golden.
That's the hypothesis.
I'll let you know when I finish collection large ingredients.
I bet that doesn't work.... I think they have to be dominion / material for both shards and the same as alter 1 and 2 for it to work......this is a only my guess but wait and see

adamkatt
03-07-2008, 06:10 PM
Lets see a few pics of these new super crafted weapons!

Raidon
03-07-2008, 06:13 PM
1. Every combined imbued supreme shard i have seen on the forums or in the game has resulted in the dominant focus being on the final shard , irrespective of shard order in the altar. The dominant focus is listed FIRST in the aspect description.

2. All para-quasi FULL upgrades are done by combining two supreme shards each with one of the foci for the para/quasi aspect.

3. "Special" mixes , air/earth, pos/neg , fire/water are a little trickier and do not necessarily follow the para- quasi- elemental rules.

It's all fairly simple. For a list of the dominant foci already done;
www.stormlords.net/crafting/crafting_aspects.html

Let's all fill in the blanks :)

P.S TYVM to NEO"S once again - great work grinding the shroud for large ingredients, and filling in 2 more blanks on the tables :)
P.P.S Still working on cracking the "specials"...

Ironwind
03-07-2008, 06:18 PM
I bet that doesn't work.... I think they have to be dominion / material for both shards and the same as alter 1 and 2 for it to work......this is a only my guess but wait and see

Honestly I am somewhat concerned about the fact that I used different GEMS in Tier 1 and Tier 2.
Having different GEMS in Tier 3 is fine, as proven by this successful combination:
Weapon
1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

My eventual combination will give us an indication about whether or not ESSENCES *and* GEMS have to be the same in Tier 1 and Tier 2 to get the Tier 3 Super Effect. So far we only have evidence to support the claim that Essences must be identical.

Ironwind
03-07-2008, 06:19 PM
1. Every combined imbued supreme shard i have seen on the forums or in the game has resulted in the dominant focus being on the final shard , irrespective of shard order in the altar. The dominant focus is listed FIRST in the aspect description.

2. All para-quasi FULL upgrades are done by combining two supreme shards each with one of the foci for the para/quasi aspect.

3. "Special" mixes , air/earth, pos/neg , fire/water are a little trickier and do not necessarily follow the para- quasi- elemental rules.

It's all fairly simple. For a list of the dominant foci already done;
www.stormlords.net/crafting/crafting_aspects.html (http://www.stormlords.net/crafting/crafting_aspects.html)

Let's all fill in the blanks :)

P.S TYVM to NEO"S once again - great work grinding the shroud for large ingredients, and filling in 2 more blanks on the tables :)
P.P.S Still working on cracking the "specials"...

Raidon,
You state in your Glossary that insight bonuses stack.
Have you personally confirmed this? Is it possible to get +7 AC from one item?

Raidon
03-07-2008, 06:29 PM
Raidon,
You state in your Glossary that insight bonuses stack.
Have you personally confirmed this? Is it possible to get +7 AC from one item?

My Bad early typo , was pointed out forgot to remove it , updated now. ty :)

Still just wireframe , will finish all when tables are near completion.

Raidon
03-07-2008, 06:46 PM
How do you figure that?

I currently have a sword that is:
Altar of Invasion :: Fire Escalation Material
Altar of Subjugation :: Earth Dominion Material
Magma I
When I make the next upgrade with:
Altar of Devastation :: Fire Escalation Material & Earth Dominion Material
I will get Magma II

As long as everything is Material, I should be golden.
That's the hypothesis.
I'll let you know when I finish collection large ingredients.

By my understanding,
the correct tier 3 shard mix would be Fire/Dominion/material & Earth Dominion Material
= Earth Dominion Material / Magma

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 07:09 PM
This has already been discussed here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1604521#post1604521) and is the crux of the 'dominant focus' theory that we are hoping can be tested next time someone performs a mixed focus supreme tyrant upgrade.

Garth



The thread has been quite busy of late and as a result of that I haven't been keeping up with it as thoroughly because I've been looking at too many theories... mine, as well as those of others, on thread and off... some of which are also labeled "dominate focus theory" but are not the same theory. Obviously I missed that one.


Examining it, if ice, which was:

air,water,air with air being the dominate to water worked, how do we explain the failure of land and sky which was:

earth,air,earth with earth being the dominate to air?

Its the same pattern of dominate, submissive, dominate in both cases... one failed

Unless I'm missing something other than what I'm getting from the post you reference, I'm not seeing it with regard to this particular "dominate focus theory".

I do agree with you in the ordering of the dominance of the elements/energies when looked at in that context though. I'm just not seeing how that dominance fits into anything successfully at this point.



p.s. We back to real discussion now? :)

I'm not sure if I should take that as an honest mistake in your choice of words or not... are you implying that my post amounts to something less than a "real" discussion? To me personally, respect is a two way street, and I'm less inclined to value the opinions of someone who feels the need to be unnecessarily rude to others, if that was your intent.

Boulderun
03-07-2008, 07:47 PM
He's talking about the ascii-numerology "theory." Untwist your panties.

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 07:51 PM
Think about that for a minute.

Has the order of ingredients in the altar made a difference anywhere yet? Would that make things nearly impossible to figure out? Would a developer really code that?

I'd play the Lotto before I'd bet on that. :)

(No offense intended to any Lotto players out there... :) )

1) No not yet, but we didn't combine two shards into one until the altar of devastation either. Just because something hasn't been done yet doesn't necessarily mean it won't be done at a later stage. 2) IMHO, it would make them quite easy to figure out if you understand the theory 3) Outside of html (circa W3C mid 1990's standards), I don't have any knowledge of coding. Since I don't have a knowledge of coding to provide me with the insight into the point of view a developer would have taken, I can't answer that question.

ColsonJade
03-07-2008, 08:05 PM
Mineral 2 on an item.

Heavy Fort

+5 protection.


http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5027/gsitemet6.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9840/sharddd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Thanks to my guild Soulless on Sarlona for the many fun runs in the shroud.

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 08:27 PM
He's talking about the ascii-numerology "theory." Untwist your panties.

LOL. I assure you my "panties" aren't "twisted"... in a purely platonic sense, you'd have to know me much better to know that though. LOL. There is a difference between questioning the intent of a statement that was questionably worded, and assuming a "worst case scenario" that what he meant by it was negative, and subsequently getting upset over it. I'm not upset or worked up in the least because I had/have a neutral view on the intent behind it.

Ilandrya
03-07-2008, 08:31 PM
re: mineral II on accessory

wow that's nice... I want one :o

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 08:39 PM
Mineral 2 on an item.

Heavy Fort

+5 protection.



Nice item, and congratulations!

Can you remember which order you put your Shards in the Altar of devastation?

Garth

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 08:43 PM
air,water,air with air being the dominate to water worked, how do we explain the failure of land and sky which was:


The upgrade for Land and Sky failed because to upgrade to the tier III special because probably one doesn't just add another Land and Sky, one probably adds something else. Potentially Tempered (Water and Fire). Eladrin has said that 'special' tier 2 combinations are slightly more complicated than quasi and para combinations, so that seems to fit.

Regards,

Garth

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 09:09 PM
Mineral 2 on an item.

Heavy Fort

+5 protection.

Nice!

ColsonJade
03-07-2008, 09:21 PM
Nice item, and congratulations!

Can you remember which order you put your Shards in the Altar of devastation?

Garth


Positive then earth. I don't believe order matters. Nothing in crafting has had order of ingredence matter for an out come. I can't see them doing that. Everything has buildt on patterns.

I believe Mineral is just like earth and that you will always get earth for your upgrade.

Though I wouldn't be surprised that there would be a way to reverse the main element in an aspect. Probably some essense of reversal like the essense of cleansing.

MysticTheurge
03-07-2008, 09:32 PM
Though I wouldn't be surprised that there would be a way to reverse the main element in an aspect. Probably some essense of reversal like the essense of cleansing.

Perhaps it's actually possible to attune your combined shard somehow when you make it.

Like an extra focus or something.

ColsonJade
03-07-2008, 10:29 PM
Just think if you go the HP line with mineral.

+45 hps, Heavy fort, +5 protection +6 con skills.

Say bye bye to Minos Legens.

Inkblack
03-07-2008, 11:05 PM
Positive then earth. I don't believe order matters. Nothing in crafting has had order of ingredence matter for an out come. I can't see them doing that. Everything has buildt on patterns.

I believe Mineral is just like earth and that you will always get earth for your upgrade.

Though I wouldn't be surprised that there would be a way to reverse the main element in an aspect. Probably some essense of reversal like the essense of cleansing.

So the Dominant Focus theory is confirmed.

Proposed Order, Dominant to Submissive: Earth, Air, Water?, Fire?, Positive, Negative

To err on the side of caution, I'm going to put question marks on Water and Fire until we see combined shards. I understand that the description suggests this order since dominant focuses seem to be listed first, I'm just looking for proof.

Ink

jakeelala
03-07-2008, 11:40 PM
why bye to minos legens it still gives stacking toughness.

Borror0
03-07-2008, 11:41 PM
why bye to minos legens it still gives stacking toughness.

Because you might get better out of that slot.

SneakThief
03-07-2008, 11:43 PM
So the Dominant Focus theory is confirmed.

Where?

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 11:45 PM
I currently have a sword that is:

Altar of Invasion :: Fire Escalation Material
Altar of Subjugation :: Earth Dominion Material
Magma I

When I make the next upgrade with:
Altar of Devastation :: Fire Escalation Material & Earth Dominion Material
I will get Magma II

I'll let you know when I finish collection large ingredients.

Just a quick note because I'm worried you might be about to waste some ingredients... The FEE and EDM supreme shards will not combine on the altar of devastation - I strongly advise against chosing this ingredient combination.

Since Earth will trump Fire when the shards are combined - chose which tier 3 effect you want from the list of six Earth weapon effects (Acid Blast, +4 AC, +2 WIS, +2 CON, Acid Absorption etc...) then make sure you create a corresponding Fire shard with the same gem and essences (e.g. if you chose to add Acid Blast, create an EDM and a FDM) . I do not believe the gems and essences you used in tier 1 and 2 play a part in the tier 3 effect or tier 3 bonus effect.

Good luck, and be sure to post the results here - Magma II on a weapon should be fun!

Garth

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-07-2008, 11:50 PM
Where?

In this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1605814#post1605814) post CoisonJade describes how he put Positive leftmost in the altar then Earth (then power cell), and still got an Earth imbued supershard. This shows that shard order in the altar doesn't matter and instead it's determined by elemental dominance.

See Ink's post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1605863#post1605863) or my post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1604521#post1604521) for more details on this theory (maybe I should say axiom now)

Garth

SneakThief
03-08-2008, 12:28 AM
In this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1605814#post1605814) post CoisonJade describes how he put Positive leftmost in the altar then Earth (then power cell), and still got an Earth imbued supershard. This shows that shard order in the altar doesn't matter and instead it's determined by elemental dominance.

See Ink's post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1605863#post1605863) or my post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1604521#post1604521) for more details on this theory (maybe I should say axiom now)

Garth

Apparently I missed the CoisonJade post ... I saw someone ask, but never saw the response. I would still be pretty disgusted if they are limiting you to half the possible 3rd tier effects if you want the combo. Im going to keep looking.

AEschyl
03-08-2008, 01:50 AM
random off-topic question..

but if you craft an existential stalemate ITEM (not weapon) do you still get the +6 wisdom?

Mhykke
03-08-2008, 01:55 AM
random off-topic question..

but if you craft an existential stalemate ITEM (not weapon) do you still get the +6 wisdom?

Yes, see pg 102 of this thread for a pic.

Sharzade
03-08-2008, 05:33 AM
Here's a Tier 2 Aspect of Vacuum khopesh I made tonight. The screenshot is just for fun :) for anyone who wants to see it. I went Material Negative Dominion at Tier 1, and Material Air Dominion at Tier 2.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/Sharzade/AspectOfVacuum.jpg

I'm about 2 ingredients away from having enough large ingredients to upgrade one of my Tier 2 items/weapons. The biggie is deciding what to upgrade first, lol! :D

It would be great if more screenshots could be put up of the various aspects. Has anyone upgraded either Aspect of Steam, or Aspect of Vacuum yet? I'm curious about the results.

Cheers,

Sharzade
;) :p

Ilandrya
03-08-2008, 06:00 AM
With at least two tests of this that have now failed, I think we can assume at this point that the order in which the two shards are placed into the altar when they are combined has no bearing on what is listed as the "dominate" focus on the dual imbued shard.

I concur about the "dominate" order of the focuses, but I'm not certain if the "dominate" focus has a bearing on "four focus enchantments". I wouldn't agree the "dominate" focus theory has been confirmed because we don't know for certain about why land and sky I failed to upgrade to land and sky II. Until we know what caused it to fail for a certainty, because it followed the pattern of "dominate" order focus yet failed, we can't assume the theory is correct when there is a fail to that theory that Eladrin stated outright wasn't due to a bug, but an error in the upgrade. The fail could be, as Willphase suggested previously, due to it being a little trickier, which keeps the theory of "dominate" focus alive, but without knowing specifically why land and sky failed to upgrade, we can't conclude at this point that the "dominate" focus theory is confirmed.

I'm interested in playing off the idea of the "dominate" focus and seeing what ideas we can come up with because I find it interesting that the developers gave us a visable clue in the descriptions of the aspects/balances as to what focus would end up dominating in the dual shard. I can't dismiss this as coincidental that this works. But, I'm not ready to state that the reason they listed a "dominate" focus on the dual shard was for anything beyond letting us know what focus would dominate in the effects we receive from the Altar of Devastation. This clue/listing of a "dominate focus" may not have anything to do with the "4 focus enchantments" at all. It may simply be for the purpose of letting us know which focus the dual shard was going to use for the third level upgrade effects prior to combining it with our item. It could have a bearing on the "4 focus enchantments" but I wouldn't assume at this point that is the case... listing a "dominate" focus on the dual shard lets people know which one would take precedent at the Altar of Devastation for the effects imparted at that altar.

That said, I'm wondering about something. At the Altar of Devastation your item thus far has "focus a" and "focus a or b" on it. If we run with the idea that the "dominate focus" of the dual shard is "a or b" also, could the order in which we place the item and the dual shard into the altar matter? Example:

dual focus shard.. magma with dominate focus of earth
item with magma I

earth, fire (earth dominate magma shard)
(earth dominate magma shard) fire, earth

This would allow for all magma I to be upgraded to magma II. Eladrin has stated that all I's can be upgraded to a II, so the order in which the first two focuses appear would have to not matter in order for this to be possible.

It also might explain why land and sky failed to upgrade.

Borror0
03-08-2008, 06:21 AM
I'm about 2 ingredients away from having enough large ingredients to upgrade one of my Tier 2 items/weapons. The biggie is deciding what to upgrade first, lol! :D

It would be great if more screenshots could be put up of the various aspects. Has anyone upgraded either Aspect of Steam, or Aspect of Vacuum yet? I'm curious about the results.

I'd go for Ashin's Vacuum as it'll be a path very few will take, unless the reward is really neat. That's the one you should take, if you ask me.

Ilandrya
03-08-2008, 06:35 AM
Sharzade, when you use your weapon, do you suffer a negative level? I've been curious about unholy damage typing on green steel weapons because at one point we had unholy weapons dropping in game, and they always resulted in a neg level penalty when weilded because we can't take an evil alignment.

I noticed that green steel blanks are "evil, magic" but didn't get a neg level from eq'ing it.

I assume the "vampiric" hp sapping effect of wearing more than one green steel accessory was done for this purpose, but if they aren't going to go with the same penalty, they should retroactively change the old unholy weapons to not give a neg level to be consistant... not sure how many people still have these items hidden away somewhere in their inventory/banks though to make this a worthwhile consideration, but we've made retroactive changes to other weapons in game before to make them in keeping with effects that came out later... The Star of Irian for example.

Ilandrya
03-08-2008, 07:00 AM
Quotes from developers about "Concordant Opposition" found elsewhere:

When someone asked about why it was worded hp and sp when it only was giving them one or the other:


It's a 1% chance to gain HP, and a separate roll for a 1% chance to gain SP.
So, you do have a 1 in ten thousand chance to get HP+SP on the same hit :)

When someone asked about why such a low % and suggested perhaps 3-5:


A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

The response seems to me to imply that multiple "Concordant Oppositions" stack with each other in some way.

jjflanigan
03-08-2008, 07:10 AM
I may have missed it -- Why is the dominant focus proven? Why have we decided that it cannot be controlled based upon a specific essence / gem combination?

winsom
03-08-2008, 07:14 AM
Am I correct to conclude that the combination of two supreme shards will only produce the bonuses from just 1 of the supreme shards, and then a bonus power (or set bonuses) is added ?

I'm planning to make Ice Goggles

Altar 1: Focus Air, Escalation, Ethereal = Air [Wizardry VI, +1 Cha skills]

Altar 2: Focus Water, Dominion, Ethereal = Water [Greater Frost Lore], together is Ice [Polar Ray x2]

Altar 3: (Focus Air, Escalation, Ethereal) [Air +100 SP, +3 CHA skills] plus second shard

(Focus Water, Dominion, Ethereal) Water) [Water unknown on equipment], together is Ice II [unknown special power]

Altar 3 will only give me one of Air +100 SP & +3 CHA skills OR the unknown Water benefit? I want to get the +100 SP addition.

Regardless, I should still get the unknown power of Ice II ? Im guessing a Freezing Ice Guard.

EspyLacopa
03-08-2008, 07:19 AM
why bye to minos legens it still gives stacking toughness.

Minos Legens, lv20:
Stacking 22 HP
Heavy Fortification
Mineral II Helmet, lv16:
Stacking 45 HP
Heavy Fortification
+5 Deflection AC
+6 Exceptional Con Skills
2x Stoneskin Clickie
Draw your own conclusions on which is better.

jjflanigan
03-08-2008, 07:33 AM
Why not:



Minos Legens, lv20:
Stacking 22 HP
Heavy Fortification

AND

Mineral II Goggles (or other item), lv16:
Stacking 45 HP
Heavy Fortification
+5 Deflection AC
+6 Exceptional Con Skills
2x Stoneskin Clickie
Draw your own conclusions on which is better.

Borror0
03-08-2008, 07:43 AM
Why not:

Because that is only 18 HP and you probably got better to put in that slot than 22 HP...

Angelus_dead
03-08-2008, 07:43 AM
I'd go for Ashin's Vacuum as it'll be a path very few will take, unless the reward is really neat. That's the one you should take, if you ask me.
Right, it looks like the negative quasielemental combos will be inherently weaker, or at least fundamentally less popular, because from a gameplay perspective negative is the worst energy you can put on a weapon.

Positive means holy, which is fine, because it gives +2d6 against the roughly 50% of monsters who are evil.
Other elements mean +1d6 against monsters of any alignment.
Negative means unholy, which is bad because it only really works against monsters in one high level quest.

Also there's no other good weapon choice you could make with negative on tier 1 or 2. Strength 6, neg absorption, +2 ac... none of that is nearly as good as +2d6 vs evil monsters.

So the two possiblities are:
1. Either the negative quasielemental effects are doomed to barely ever be used in DDO.
2. The devs planned for this, and made the negative effects so good they'll compensate for the weak bonuses at tier 1 and 2.

jjflanigan
03-08-2008, 07:47 AM
Because that is only 18 HP and you probably got better to put in that slot than 22 HP...

umm....what is only 18HP? One is 22...the other is 45? And since a majority of players wear minos legens, I don't think most have better to put in that slot, do they?

Angelus_dead
03-08-2008, 07:49 AM
umm....what is only 18HP? One is 22...the other is 45? And since a majority of players wear minos legens, I don't think most have better to put in that slot, do they?
It's not a question of Minos Legens vs Green Steel Helmet, but Minos Legens vs Green Steel Helm/Cloak/Bracer/Goggles/Boots.

Possibly there are some players who would make goggles of Mineral II, and sometimes keep wearing Minos Legens for an additional 19 hp. You need to judge it against all the different item slots Mineral II could be placed in.

Sharzade
03-08-2008, 09:13 AM
Hiya,

Aye, my character suffers a negative level while the Aspect of Vacuum Khopesh is equipped. But it makes sense because the description of Unholy in the weapon spec box states that a good-aligned character will suffer that side-effect (Ashin is Chaotic Good). However, I was a bit surprised that this happened. I was under the impression that Greensteel weapons wouldn't cause negative levels for anyone, and in this case the penalty is there. At the mo' it seems unclear whether this is a bug or not.

Borror0, ;) I've got three items I'll choose amongst for the Tier 3 upgrade. They are my cleric's Aspect of Steam Goggles, my bardbarian's Aspect of Mineral Greatsword, and Ashin's Aspect of Vacuum Khopesh. The cleric and bardbarian have got the two supreme shards they need for a Tier 3 upgrade, but Ashin doesn't. So to upgrade to Vacuum 2 would take longer while she looks for supreme shards. I don't know if I can wait that long!!! :eek:

This new raid crafting is superfun to puzzle out! :p

Cheers,

Sharzade
:D

Inkblack
03-08-2008, 10:13 AM
I may have missed it -- Why is the dominant focus proven? Why have we decided that it cannot be controlled based upon a specific essence / gem combination?

Because every example so far has followed a basic set of rules that says when two imbued shards are combined, then one of the focuses will be selected for the final upgrade based on a hierarchical dominance. Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Positive, Negative -- with Fire and Water's exact position unverified. Are there other combinations to be tried? Sure.

It's the old joke. An engineer, mathematician, and scientist are placed in a room with a beautiful woman. They are told every minute they can cover half of the remaining distance to the woman, and the first to reach her can go on a date with her (I'll clean it up a bit). The mathematician and scientist promptly give up, because they know that they will never truly cover the entire difference. The engineer is all excited because he knows he can always round up.

My proof might not measure up to the standards of science, I've just rounded up. Prove me wrong, please! I like more options.

By the way, in stating that the Dominant Focus theory is confirmed, all it means is that a combined imbued shard will have a predictable focus based on dominance. I am limiting the theory to just that -- not determining bonus effect presence based on the third tier upgrade. I believe that aspect of it has been disproven by the Air/Water/Air upgrade.

Ink

Mad_Bombardier
03-08-2008, 10:26 AM
umm....what is only 18HP? One is 22...the other is 45? And since a majority of players wear minos legens, I don't think most have better to put in that slot, do they?@ L16, Minos Legens grants 18 HP. @ L20, it will grant 22 HP.

Borror0
03-08-2008, 11:01 AM
umm....what is only 18HP? One is 22...the other is 45? And since a majority of players wear minos legens, I don't think most have better to put in that slot, do they?

Yes, people still wear Minos Legend right now and will keep wearing it, but ont because it's better.

Heavy Frtotification, +45 HP and +6 to Concentration is brilliant for a caster, it'll be a must have for anyone getting a Stone of Cleansing, as the +150 SP, Wiz VI and +6 Cha skills (UMD) or +6 Int skills (DD, Search) will be more popular. But were we not be limit to one Green Steel item... also, saying Minos is still wore means that it's as good doesn't work. This has been found out a few hours ago, Minos months ago.

Minos, at level 16, is only 18 HP and 18 HP from one item slot isn't worth it... that's what it meant.


Aye, my character suffers a negative level while the Aspect of Vacuum Khopesh is equipped. But it makes sense because the description of Unholy in the weapon spec box states that a good-aligned character will suffer that side-effect (Ashin is Chaotic Good). However, I was a bit surprised that this happened. I was under the impression that Greensteel weapons wouldn't cause negative levels for anyone, and in this case the penalty is there. At the mo' it seems unclear whether this is a bug or not.

It's a bug! You shouldn't get any penalty... with that Evil accent of ours!!:eek:;)


Borror0, ;) I've got three items I'll choose amongst for the Tier 3 upgrade. They are my cleric's Aspect of Steam Goggles, my bardbarian's Aspect of Mineral Greatsword, and Ashin's Aspect of Vacuum Khopesh. The cleric and bardbarian have got the two supreme shards they need for a Tier 3 upgrade, but Ashin doesn't. So to upgrade to Vacuum 2 would take longer while she looks for supreme shards. I don't know if I can wait that long!!! :eek:

Well, hopefuly the party will loot Supreme Shards and will pas them to you next time Ashin gets off timer, I know I would. But if Steam is on goggles, then it matters less. I thought it was on a weapon... and Steam on a weapon will be tested out very soon. (Anything that can have Holy/Element will be figured out in a matter of days, hehe)

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-08-2008, 11:39 AM
Am I correct to conclude that the combination of two supreme shards will only produce the bonuses from just 1 of the supreme shards, and then a bonus power (or set bonuses) is added ?


Yes. It will take the third tier bonus from the more dominant element in the combination (in your case, air)




I'm planning to make Ice Goggles

AEE//WDM//(AEE//WDE) (edited for brevity)

Altar 3 will only give me one of Air +100 SP & +3 CHA skills OR the unknown Water benefit? I want to get the +100 SP addition.


The two shards you are proposing to create will not combine. All the evidence so far suggests that you need to match the gems and essences. In addition, because air trumps water you will not get the water effect anyway - you will get the AEE (+100 SP, +3 CHA skills) effect (which is what you want anyway).



Regardless, I should still get the unknown power of Ice II ? Im guessing a Freezing Ice Guard.


Yes, as long as you combine the two shards, which can only happen if you match gems and essences.

I recommend going:

AEE//WDM//(AEE+WEE)

to get the item you want

Garth

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-08-2008, 11:42 AM
Right, it looks like the negative quasielemental combos will be inherently weaker, or at least fundamentally less popular, because from a gameplay perspective negative is the worst energy you can put on a weapon.


Not for PVP. I know someone who went -DM//-DM//-OE just to make a good PVP weapon.

Garth

Zaodon
03-08-2008, 11:46 AM
Just to summarize:

Got Super Power:

1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Earth Dominion Material (aspect of mineral)
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

Focus: Pos/Earth/(Earth+Pos)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Opp+Opp)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Eth+Eth)

1 negative escalation ethereal (negative affinity)
2 positive escalation ethereal (existential stalemate)
3 positive escalation ethereal + negative escalation ethereal = positive escalation ethereal / Existential Stalemate

Focus: Neg/Pos/(Pos+Neg)
Gems: Esc/Esc/(Esc+Esc)
Essence: Eth/Eth(Eth+Eth)

1 Positive Dominion Material (positive affinity)
2 Air Dominion Material (aspect of lightning)
3 Air Dominion Material + Positive Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Lightning

Focus: Pos/Air/(Air+Pos)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Dom+Dom)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Mat+Mat)

1 Air Dominion Material (air affinity)
2 Water Dominion Material (aspect of ice)
3 Air Dominion Material + Water Dominion Material = Air Dominion Material / Ice

Focus: Air/Water/(Air+Water)
Gems: Dom/Dom/(Dom+Dom)
Essence: Mat/Mat/(Mat+Mat)

1 Material Earth Escalation
2 Ethereal Positive Escalation
3 Ethereal Positive Escalation + Ethereal Earth Escalation = Ethereal Earth Escalation / Mineral

Focus: Earth/Pos/(Pos+Earth)
Gems: Esc/Esc/(Esc+Esc)
Essence: Mat/Eth/(Eth+Eth)


DID NOT Get Super Power:

1 earth material escalation (earth affinity)
2 air ethereal escalation (balance of land and sky)
3 earth ethereal escalation + air ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

Focus: Earth/Air/(Earth+Air)
Gems: Esc/Esc/(Esc+Esc)
Essence: Mat/Eth/(Eth+Eth)


Result:
The one that failed was a "Special" that was not Pos/Neg, and it tried to upgrade itself with itself (BoLas + BoLaS)

I reiterate my theory:

Tier 2 upgrades make 21 combos: 6 pure, 12 para/quasi, and 3 special.

Pure = Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Pos, Neg
Para/Quasi = Smoke, Ash, Magma, etc.
Special = BoLaS, Tempered, Existential Stalemate

Using those descriptions, here is a basic formulae for Tier 3: (Tier 2 Combo) + ? = (Tier 3).

So, draw this table:

Pure
====
* Use a simple shard with the same element from first two upgrades.

Fire I + Fire = Fire II
Water I +Water = Water II
Earth I + Earth = Earth II
Air I + Air = Air II
Pos I + Pos = Pos II
Neg I + Neg = Neg II

Para/Quasi Upgrades:
================
* Create a Tier 3 supershard with the same two elements from first two upgrades. Focii order doesn't matter. Gem/Essence doesn't matter.

Smoke I + Smoke = Smoke II
Ice I + Ice = Ice II
Magma I + Magma = Magma II
Ooze I + Ooze = Ooze II

Lightning I + Lightning = Lightning II
Vacuum I + Vacuum = Vacuum II
Mineral I + Mineral = Mineral II
Dust I + Dust = Dust II
Radiance I + Radiance = Radiance II
Ash I + Ash = Ash II
Steam I + Steam = Steam II
Salt I + Salt = Salt II

Special Upgrades: (Special means OPPOSITE - don't normally exist in D&D)
================================================== ====
* Create a Tier 3 supershard with the OPPOSITE two elements from first two upgrades. Focii order doesn't matter. Gem/Essence doesn't matter.

Balance of Land and Sky + Tempered = (?)
Tempered + Balance of Land and Sky = (?)
Existential Stalemate + Existential Stalemate = Concordant Opposition

Angelus_dead
03-08-2008, 11:54 AM
Special Upgrades: (Special means OPPOSITE - don't normally exist in D&D)
================================================== ====
* Create a Tier 3 supershard with the OPPOSITE two elements from first two upgrades. Focii order doesn't matter. Gem/Essence doesn't matter.

Balance of Land and Sky + Tempered = (?)
Tempered + Balance of Land and Sky = (?)
Existential Stalemate + Existential Stalemate = Concordant Opposition
You are confused somehow. The "OPPOSITE" two elements from earth-air are air-earth, not fire-water.

Angelus_dead
03-08-2008, 11:57 AM
Not for PVP. I know someone who went -DM//-DM//-OE just to make a good PVP weapon.
One, pvp is a marginal and unimportant part of DDO's gameplay. Two, -DM is a horrid way to make a PVP weapon. The only good PVP weapons you can craft are the +9 int/wis/cha items.

Kargon
03-08-2008, 12:33 PM
One, pvp is a marginal and unimportant part of DDO's gameplay. Two, -DM is a horrid way to make a PVP weapon. The only good PVP weapons you can craft are the +9 int/wis/cha items.

Or Kargon lightnaming hammermer... BOOM! 650 damage! Sure not happen very oftamen, but are a random 'kargon win' buttomon pretty much ;)

CaptGrim
03-08-2008, 01:18 PM
Minos Legens, lv20:
Stacking 22 HP
Heavy Fortification
30-40k plat
Mineral II Helmet, lv16:
Stacking 45 HP
Heavy Fortification
+5 Deflection AC
+6 Exceptional Con Skills
2x Stoneskin Clickie
2-4 weeks of hvy grinding
Draw your own conclusions on which is better.

fixed it for ya ;)

Inkblack
03-08-2008, 01:23 PM
I took Zaodan's suggestion (somewhat) and changed my Tier 3 Bonus tab to include a balanced aspect section.

It's been a while since I've done this, so:
/plug
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pLaIqDL_IzJRx5CcCEpCaYg

Ink

Sharzade
03-08-2008, 01:51 PM
I'll see how the supreme shard hunt pans out on Ashin. I'm guessing that the Tier 3 Aspect of Vacuum 2 weapon bonus could be a chance of unleashing Destruction (lowering opponent AC) for a short time. I'm basing that solely on the two Destruction clickies lol. :D Good guess?

Cheers,

Sharzade :p

EspyLacopa
03-08-2008, 02:17 PM
I'll see how the supreme shard hunt pans out on Ashin. I'm guessing that the Tier 3 Aspect of Vacuum 2 weapon bonus could be a chance of unleashing Destruction (lowering opponent AC) for a short time. I'm basing that solely on the two Destruction clickies lol. :D Good guess?

Cheers,

Sharzade :p

How about chance to activate Implosion on a Vacuum II weapon?

Sharzade
03-08-2008, 02:28 PM
Espy, Implosion sounds Super!! I'd also like some kind of sucking the life out of the enemy effect or delevelling. But I'm not gonna get too hopeful lol. ;) :p

Cheers,

Sharzade
:)

Borror0
03-08-2008, 02:32 PM
Espy, Implosion sounds Super!! I'd also like some kind of sucking the life out of the enemy effect or delevelling. But I'm not gonna get too hopeful lol. ;) :p

I can see that from here already:

<funny british accent>Look! I sucked the life out of this little suckers! Hahahahaha!!! You guys think I could suck the life out of the tavern?</funny british accent>

EspyLacopa
03-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Espy, Implosion sounds Super!! I'd also like some kind of sucking the life out of the enemy effect or delevelling. But I'm not gonna get too hopeful lol. ;) :p

Cheers,

Sharzade
:)

Fun fact about Implosion: instantly kills stuff, but is neither Necromancy, nor a Death effect. As such, Undead still get destroyed, and it ignores Deathblock.

Sharzade
03-08-2008, 03:05 PM
I can see that from here already:

<funny british accent>Look! I sucked the life out of this little suckers! Hahahahaha!!! You guys think I could suck the life out of the tavern?</funny british accent>

Aye, reckon I could be very impressed by the instakill of implosion. The occasional one time vacuum cleaner effect. It would be such fun to suck the life out of unfortunate blighters who dare cross my path! :p Perhaps I could even take out the Ward of Kundarak, pubs and all! True happiness is in the eye of the beholder, don't y'see? :D

Cheers,

Sharzade
:)

Wulf_Ratbane
03-08-2008, 03:20 PM
Has anyone upgraded either Aspect of Steam, or Aspect of Vacuum yet? I'm curious about the results.

I wouldn't try for Vacuum II.

Rumor has it it totally sucks.

Zaodon
03-08-2008, 04:21 PM
You are confused somehow. The "OPPOSITE" two elements from earth-air are air-earth, not fire-water.

No, the Opposite of Air is Earth. The Opposite of Earth is Air.

But.

What is the opposite of BoLaS (Air+Earth) ?

Think hard on this: Fire+Earth = Magma. Does Magma have an opposite? Yes. Is it Magma? Of course not. Its Ice.

Look at this diagram.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Innerplanes.jpg

You can clearly see Ice is the opposite of Magma.

So, we have "special" combos. Hmm, what does "Special" mean?
It means they are Opposites, that don't normally exist in regular D&D, but do in DDO.

So, logically, if they are opposites, then the combo for an opposite, is an OPPOSITE.

Hence:
BoLaS + Tempered
Tempered + BoLaS
Ex. Stale + Ex. Stale (because pos/neg is the opposite of pos/neg).

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-08-2008, 04:42 PM
So, we have "special" combos. Hmm, what does "Special" mean?
It means they are Opposites, that don't normally exist in regular D&D, but do in DDO.

The term 'special' is one coined by the DDO designers to refer to the three extra 2nd tier combinations they placed in the game which are not 'traditional' DDO lore. These are fire/water (tempered) earth/air (Balance of Land and Sky) and pos/neg (existential stalemate)

Eladrin has said that these 'special' upgrades sometimes require more than just adding the same two elements you already added. 'Sometimes' because we've seen that Existential Stalemate worked. I still suspect adding Tempered to BoLaS and seeing what happens - in fact, a guildy is already preparing for this but is quite a few ingredients away so happy for someone else to try it :)

Regards,

Garth

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-08-2008, 04:47 PM
I wouldn't try for Vacuum II.

Rumor has it it totally sucks.

Vacuum 2: item does the vacuuming for you
Dust 2: item does the dusting for you
Steam 2: item does the ironing for you

If only there was a way to get all three at once.

Garth

sirgog
03-08-2008, 05:01 PM
I wouldn't try for Vacuum II.

Rumor has it it totally sucks.

Please, leave the Dad jokes off the forums :D

EspyLacopa
03-08-2008, 05:24 PM
No, the Opposite of Air is Earth. The Opposite of Earth is Air.

But.

What is the opposite of BoLaS (Air+Earth) ?

Think hard on this: Fire+Earth = Magma. Does Magma have an opposite? Yes. Is it Magma? Of course not. Its Ice.

</snip>

So, we have "special" combos. Hmm, what does "Special" mean?
It means they are Opposites, that don't normally exist in regular D&D, but do in DDO.

So, logically, if they are opposites, then the combo for an opposite, is an OPPOSITE.

Hence:
BoLaS + Tempered
Tempered + BoLaS
Ex. Stale + Ex. Stale (because pos/neg is the opposite of pos/neg).

Magma: Earth/Fire
Ice: Air/Water

Air: Opposite of Earth
Water: Opposite of Fire

Thus, Ice is Opposite of Magma.

Balance of Land and Sky: Earth/Air
Air: Opposite of Earth
Earth: Opposite of Air

Thus, opposite of Balance of Land and Sky. . .is itself. It has no opposite. At the same time, it's its own opposite. And thus, a paradox. The same applies to the Tempered and Existential Stalemate combos.

jjflanigan
03-08-2008, 05:32 PM
Vacuum 2: item does the vacuuming for you
Dust 2: item does the dusting for you
Steam 2: item does the ironing for you

If only there was a way to get all three at once.

Garth

There is...it's called a wife....

(totally joking, please don't kill me!)

Zaodon
03-08-2008, 06:05 PM
Magma: Earth/Fire
Ice: Air/Water

Air: Opposite of Earth
Water: Opposite of Fire

Thus, Ice is Opposite of Magma.

Balance of Land and Sky: Earth/Air
Air: Opposite of Earth
Earth: Opposite of Air

Thus, opposite of Balance of Land and Sky. . .is itself. It has no opposite. At the same time, it's its own opposite. And thus, a paradox. The same applies to the Tempered and Existential Stalemate combos.

You aren't getting it, at all.

Try this picture.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c53/RPGamerd00d/Innerplanes.jpg

Point to the Opposite of BoLaS on the picture.

Clearly, its Tempered.

Zaodon
03-08-2008, 06:09 PM
There is...it's called a wife....

(totally joking, please don't kill me!)

(cue the dramatic music)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c53/RPGamerd00d/dramaticprairiedog.gif

Ooooooo! You in trouuuuubleeeeeee !

:D

Eudimio
03-08-2008, 06:36 PM
Not too impressive. 20% always-active blur. Screenshots will follow.

EspyLacopa
03-08-2008, 06:42 PM
You aren't getting it, at all.

Try this picture.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c53/RPGamerd00d/Innerplanes.jpg

Point to the Opposite of BoLaS on the picture.

Clearly, its Tempered.
Actually, if you open your mind a bit more to the fact that it is, in fact, three dimensional. . .It could also be Existential Stalemate ^_^
It also runs perpendicular to BoLaS.

HOWEVER

Opposites in that picture are not those that are perpendicular. . .they are those that are flipped. Scross the center.(Such as your Magma/Ice bit, another example would be Salt and Radiance.) Flip BoLaS over center. . .and you get BoLaS.

sirgog
03-08-2008, 06:50 PM
Not too impressive. 20% always-active blur. Screenshots will follow.

Is this an item or a weapon?

Borror0
03-08-2008, 06:52 PM
There is...it's called a wife....

Thought the same.:D


Is this an item or a weapon?

I'd guess on an accessory.

Angelus_dead
03-08-2008, 07:04 PM
You aren't getting it, at all.
We all get it just fine. It's you who have the problem.... what you're writing now is not what you wrote before. Apparently English is not your main language. You contradict yourself at various times, and don't even know it.

You're using the word "opposite" to mean something besides what it really means.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-08-2008, 07:09 PM
Actually, if you open your mind a bit more to the fact that it is, in fact, three dimensional. . .It could also be Existential Stalemate ^_^
It also runs perpendicular to BoLaS.

HOWEVER

Opposites in that picture are not those that are perpendicular. . .they are those that are flipped. Scross the center.(Such as your Magma/Ice bit, another example would be Salt and Radiance.) Flip BoLaS over center. . .and you get BoLaS.

I think in this discussion it's important we take into account Fleming's Left Hand Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming's_left_hand_rule).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cb/Left_hand_rule.png/300px-Left_hand_rule.png

Garth

Eudimio
03-08-2008, 07:17 PM
Well, here it is. I was hoping for a blinding effect. Looks like I gotta try Dust 2 next!

Aspect of Smoke Longsword

http://imageduck.com/v/screenshot00070505.jpg

Taco Supreme Shard

http://imageduck.com/v/screenshot00069.jpg

+5 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Longsword of Smoke

http://imageduck.com/v/screenshot00075f9a.jpg

A couple of things: Displacement is only 2x per day, listed in Ink's chart as 3x. The fire shard was dominant over air. I placed the fire shard in first. I'll leave that one to you guys!

Thanks to everyone that helped me craft this. My guildies helped out a lot, especially Toro, Grizzzz, and Piro. And Ink traded me a few right before the raid, and Halspex made an emergency trade at the altar, lol. And thanks to the Free Companions for putting up with my slow crafting. Oh, and thanks to whomever put that battleaxe in the auction house (see first screenshot).

Happy Hunting.

The_Cataclysm
03-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Well, here it is. I was hoping for a blinding effect. Looks like I gotta try Dust 2 next!


I think Radiance is the more likely upgrade path to feature a blinding effect.

Xaxx
03-08-2008, 07:39 PM
so if i went

air/dom/mat
air/dom/mat
for the first 2 and tried kargons
air/dom/mat+pos/dom/mat

any ideas what would happen, would it screw u p and give me the haste gaurd and be air 2, would it give me the lightning strike or would it give me something different

The_Cataclysm
03-08-2008, 07:51 PM
so if i went

air/dom/mat
air/dom/mat
for the first 2 and tried kargons
air/dom/mat+pos/dom/mat

any ideas what would happen, would it screw u p and give me the haste gaurd and be air 2, would it give me the lightning strike or would it give me something different

My guess is either nothing or air 2.