PDA

View Full Version : A request for UMD



CDevil
01-15-2008, 05:07 AM
I don't know if this has been brought up before in discussion, but there's an issue with UMD I was hoping could be explained.

Why doesn't UMD work on level restrictions?

Now, those who've played PnP know that UMD can be used to bypass alignment, race, and class restrictions. However, in PnP, items have no restrictions on level. Technically, you could have a lvl 1 fighter wielding a +5 sword* or a lvl 1 wizzy running around with a Staff of the Magi**.

UMD is, admittedly, a very powerful skill. In DDO it also allows players to bypass alignment, race, and class restrictions (which allows my rogue to be the backup medic in many cases). However, since DDO has also added level restrictions to equipment, it seems reasonable that UMD should apply to this, as well. I'm NOT suggesting something that would allow lvl 1's to run around with Vorpal weapons***, but allowing a high UMD character to overcome level restrictions wouldn't be too imbalancing, considering everything that's out there.

For example, a drow rogue with maxed charisma, maxed UMD skill, and skill focus UMD feat would have a UMD skill of 12 at level 1.
CHA 20 (+5)
Skill lvl 1 (+4)
Focus feat (+3)
Total: +12
(Note: I'm not including the Rogue skill boost since it's temporary.)

Allowing this first level character to use weapons or items with a level restriction of 2nd level (a 1 level difference) would not seem outrageous to me. Taking this further, you could allow a further 1 level difference every 5 ranks (2 levels at 15, 3 levels at 20, etc.) without severely overpowering a character. At the very least, it would make some characters (rogues and Bards being the most obvious, but not the only ones) more versatile and give a party more potential options.

Anyhow, if the Devs are reading, it's something to consider.



* Admittedly, this would be unlikely unless your DM were running a "Monty Hall" style adventure.

** For the unfamiliar, a SotM in PnP is VERY different from the version in DDO. The closest DDO approximation would be the Staff of Arcane Power from the Zawabi's Revenge raid.

*** It's not reasonable, but it IS technically possible in PnP for low level characters to get their hands on such powerful items (Frodo and the One Ring, anyone?).

Grimdiegn
01-15-2008, 07:03 AM
The level restriction is taking the place of the DM who should rarely (or never) give low level chars access to high end items. And I'm fairly sure the One Rring would be classified as a cursed relic and has no place in the argument.

Very bad idea in my opinion.

/not signed

Jebise
01-15-2008, 07:06 AM
The level restriction is taking the place of the DM who should rarely (or never) give low level chars access to high end items. And I'm fairly sure the One Rring would be classified as a cursed relic and has no place in the argument.

Very bad idea in my opinion.

/not signed

absolutely agreed... for what it's worth.

UMD is already an overpowered skill.... not that it stops me from using it to its fullest on my bard.

GlassCannon
01-15-2008, 07:14 AM
What skill would allow my Monk 1 to wield the Gauntlets of Isaac's Missile Storm(On-Hit, Infinite cast, at caster level 40)?

Sure, it would be a bit overpowered but by golly I earned those and if I want to ruin my experience in DDO or just plain DESTROY a dungeon that is my-level-equivalent, I rightly should have that option.

Hvymetal
01-15-2008, 07:34 AM
The level restriction is taking the place of the DM who should rarely (or never) give low level chars access to high end items. And I'm fairly sure the One Rring would be classified as a cursed relic and has no place in the argument.

Very bad idea in my opinion.

/not signedYea agreed, if people think the twinking is already bad, UMD'ed race required equipment WOOT!!!!

CDevil
01-15-2008, 08:15 AM
The level restriction is taking the place of the DM who should rarely (or never) give low level chars access to high end items. And I'm fairly sure the One Rring would be classified as a cursed relic and has no place in the argument.

Very bad idea in my opinion.

/not signed

Do tell, how many items do your first level characters walk around with that grant invisibility?

The fact that the One Ring was a relic makes it a PERFECT example, but if that's too much for you, would you care for another example? How about young Arthur and the sword in the stone? Aladdin and the magic lamp?

Considering this idea only gives you a level use boost every 3 levels or so hardly makes "high end items" available. I fail to see how a first level character using second level items (How powerful was 2nd level stuff, again? Thought so.), or a fourth level character using sixth level items (+3 vice +2 weapons), could "destroy" a dungeon.
((Contrary to your unreasonably extreme example, GlassCannon. "Gauntlets of Isaac's Missile Storm(On-Hit, Infinite cast, at caster level 40)," indeed.))

Still, if that's what you think, why not take out UMD all together?

Race restricted, and you're not that race? SOL, pal.
(UMD can already be used to overcome race requirements, Hvymetal.)
Need healing and there's no cleric or bard? Pots or nothing.
Restricted alignment and you're not it? <BUZZ> Try again.
Need a spell cast and there's no caster? Might as well throw those wands/scrolls at the mob and hope for the best.

By the way, Jebsie, lovely bit of hypocricy there. "UMD is already an overpowered skill.... not that it stops me from using it to its fullest on my bard." So you think it's wrong, but you have no problem using it to benefit yourself. How quaint.

Jhoran
01-15-2008, 08:26 AM
i think you lost me when you wanted to base your argument on D&D pen and paper...and proceeded to use Frodo and the 1 Ring, King Arthur and Excalibur and Aladdin and the magic lamp as your examples of why it should be fine.

Memnir
01-15-2008, 08:26 AM
It's there for game balance, and thats where the story ends.
You can get as snarky with me as you like, C, but that does not change the fact that the skill needs some limits. Just because it is a very potent skill does not mean that all the limits should be taken off.

By this logic - I should be able to take Inproved Critical at level one, right? I mean - it's a very potent Feat - so why can't I take it at level one on my Fighter if I want to? Or how about a Barbarian taking Critical Rage... whenever? I know - let's give Wizards and Sorcerers a choice between Burning Hands and Finger of Death at creation. Hey, both spells are handy but why should we hold back the really cool ones till later, yeah?


Balance.

Jebise
01-15-2008, 08:43 AM
Race restricted, and you're not that race? SOL, pal.
(UMD can already be used to overcome race requirements, Hvymetal.)
Need healing and there's no cleric or bard? Pots or nothing.
Restricted alignment and you're not it? <BUZZ> Try again.
Need a spell cast and there's no caster? Might as well throw those wands/scrolls at the mob and hope for the best.

You forgot Rangers and Paladins can also heal. Wizards and Sorcs can heal WF as well, so there's plenty of classes that could whip a wand for healing. Although the fact that my level 3 pally/2 fighter can whip out a CSW wand (No UMD Check) may still be overpowered.
Worried about alignment? go True Neutral.
Wands/scrolls can be used by the classes that get the spell, and again, if my level 3 wizzie can use a level MM wand with a caster level of 7, that's overpowered.



By the way, Jebsie, lovely bit of hypocricy there. "UMD is already an overpowered skill.... not that it stops me from using it to its fullest on my bard." So you think it's wrong, but you have no problem using it to benefit yourself. How quaint.

I never said it wasn't hypocritical. I'm not a Dev. I didn't design the game. I play by the rules that are set forth to me. This isn't an acknowledged exploit, so therefore I am within the rules of the game. I personally believe that it's overpowered, but admit freely to using it, as will most anyone that sees fit to sink points into the skill. I don't have to pretend that it's consistent. Consistency is the defense of the small mind, as they say. If there was a huge nerf to how UMD worked, I'd just learn the way to use it to its fullest in its new form.

binnsr
01-15-2008, 08:44 AM
Need healing and there's no cleric or bard? Pots or nothing.

Or Rangers or Paladins.
Or Wizards or Sorcerers (for our WarForged Brethren)


I like it the way it is now .. the current system already follows what you're outlining - in your example, you say that a l1 character can hit a 12 UMD (if he tries hard enough). well.. a RR +1 flaming burst sword has a UMD of 12 and is usable at lvl2 - rather than the lvl4 it would normally be.

so /notsigned!

Raithe
01-15-2008, 09:08 AM
This suggestion would become completely pointless at end game, unless loot table problems reappear. You can't get minimum level 15 and 16 items in the game right now, so there would be no point in being able to UMD them.

Oreg
01-15-2008, 09:15 AM
I am pretty sure the One Ring drops when you leave the instance so it can't really be used as an example.:p

Yshkabibble
01-15-2008, 10:04 AM
I think most can agree that its just a bad idea.


The community in general is already nasty enough to newer players. Let's not make it worse by allowing a level 2 fighter/bard to run around with a +5 holy long sword of pure good while the average new player is doing good to get a +2 longsword.

Laith
01-15-2008, 10:06 AM
The community in general is already nasty enough to newer players. Let's not make it worse by allowing a level 2 fighter/bard to run around with a +5 holy long sword of pure good while the average new player is doing good to get a +2 longsword.agreed... twinking is already prevalent enough.

Westerner
01-15-2008, 10:17 AM
Agree with what was said before about level limits being needed to maintain game balance.

I think what UMD does need is higher caster level versions of existing scrolls/wands in the shops, with appropriate minimum level requirements. Currently, UMD is useful, but it doesn't scale.

DSL
01-15-2008, 10:45 AM
Agree with what was said before about level limits being needed to maintain game balance.

I think what UMD does need is higher caster level versions of existing scrolls/wands in the shops, with appropriate minimum level requirements. Currently, UMD is useful, but it doesn't scale.

Many would say that the ready availability of wands and scrolls is already overpowering. Higher level versions do exist as random drops (and consequently can be found on the AH), but making them available for general vendor purchase is too much. Possibly some favor reward that would let you buy limited quantitites would be acceptable, but I doubt if we'll see this in any form anytime soon.

Getting back to the OP, as Binnsr pointed out, UMD already lets you bypass level restrictions in a limited, indirect way, but otherwise the level minimums are an important part of game balance that should be left as is (though many players I know feel they're too low already).

Tarnoc
01-15-2008, 10:53 AM
keep in mind op that if they made lvl req bypassable they would respectively make the umd higher thus
making most batman styles un able to easily swap out weapons without the extra umd items and buffs

Vizzini
01-15-2008, 11:31 AM
My opinion on this swings both ways...

Firstly - I should point out that I always put UMD on my builds if they have a decent Charisma. However if they are not spec'd to be a Full UMD build I typically will cut off the skill when I can use Cure Mod wands.

I do have a UMD Batman - He can reach a max UMD of 38 Boosted, and I love playing him! Nice to be able to bypass most any item in the game, alignment or not. Not to mention using scrolls that he really shouldn't be able to.. that being said ***IF they did implement the OP's idea, it would make no difference for my build as I've already hit lvl 14. It's not going to add more UMD to my skill, it's only going to let me use them a little sooner***

Here lies the problem.. The majority of people implementing the UMD skill (as has been pointed out - are already overpowered - I was at level 4 soloing STK with my Batman build).. Imagine how disgusting it would be too drop the level requirement for using such items as raise dead scrolls etc... Even if just by 1 level, now your UMD'r becomes a better cleric at level 6 than a full blown cleric!

Imagine a fighter running around with rr Vorpals, Smiters, and Disrupters at level 8! Most people at that point are running things like Threnal etc.. How fun would it be, that everytime you approach a reaver in Thernal, some UMD build comes by with his Banishing Rapier at level 8, and **poof** the reaver is gone is 2 hits :x I can tell you that from anyone who's not the person doing the banishing it's going to suck!

Point is - as fun as it would be, and yes it would hypothetically make sense.. Turbine should NOT implement this idea, as it would only serve to aggravate the community further, and likely bring around the end of the game for yet more players.

Mercules
01-15-2008, 11:32 AM
Why doesn't UMD work on level restrictions?

Now, those who've played PnP know that UMD can be used to bypass alignment, race, and class restrictions. However, in PnP, items have no restrictions on level. Technically, you could have a lvl 1 fighter wielding a +5 sword* or a lvl 1 wizzy running around with a Staff of the Magi**.

If anything... the ML on items should be higher, not lowered in any way. A +1 Elemental PG RR weapon makes a character a god in the quests a level 2 would be doing. Heck a +1 Less Reptilian Bane weapon makes them dang powerful in any of those lower quests that include Kobolds... which is what? Over half the low level content? Now give them a PG weapon and they walk through everything.

Mad_Bombardier
01-15-2008, 11:37 AM
I would like to see UMD checks to emulate an ability score (stat). I know it's supposed to be just for scroll/wand activation. But, if they could apply it to runes too, that'd be pretty handy. :) d20 + UMD - 15 = emulated ability score. Heck, they could take the d20 out and have it just be UMD-15.

Beherit_Baphomar
01-15-2008, 11:46 AM
Doesnt really matter now, does it?

A level 1 character isn't going to have the UMD to bypass a UMD check of 22 anyways.

Mercules
01-15-2008, 11:54 AM
Doesnt really matter now, does it?

A level 1 character isn't going to have the UMD to bypass a UMD check of 22 anyways.

Sure he will... He can UMD things that will boost his UMD like Eagle's Splendor potions and such. ;) It's a spiral...

Kerr
01-15-2008, 12:31 PM
Denied.

binnsr
01-15-2008, 01:11 PM
Sure he will... He can UMD things that will boost his UMD like Eagle's Splendor potions and such. ;) It's a spiral...
The highest UMD you can get at lvl1 is... <drumroll>

4 Ranks (1 rogue)
5 Cha Modifier (20 base)
2 Eagles splendor Potion
3 SF: UMD
3 Alchemical Bonus from collectables
2 Rogue Action Boost I
19 on a lvl1 Drow Rogue
+2 Inspire Competence
= 21 with outside help from a lvl3 bard
+4 Greater Heroism (obviously would only be around town)
= 23

captain1z
01-15-2008, 10:36 PM
The highest UMD you can get at lvl1 is... <drumroll>

4 Ranks (1 rogue)
5 Cha Modifier (20 base)
2 Eagles splendor Potion
3 SF: UMD
2 Heroism Potion
3 Alchemical Bonus from collectables
2 Rogue Action Boost I
21 on a lvl1 Drow Rogue
+2 Inspire Competence
= 23 with outside help from a lvl3 bard
+2 Greater Heroism (obviously would only be around town)
= 25



Im pretty sure you cant drink a hero pot at level 1




anyways.... IN PNP UMD lets you mimick a casters level for purposes of item activation and such.............

the roll is vs. 20 every +1 over 20 represents a false caster level. so an item is level 5 only.... then u need to roll a 25 to use it.

TechNoFear
01-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Can anyone explain why UMD allows my neutral Bard to use alignment weps (pure good etc) but Stability items can not be UMD'ed?

Invalid_86
01-15-2008, 11:57 PM
Wow. Just...no. Be glad that you can use the level inappropriate items that we can use now.

UMD isn't really an overpowered skill unto itself, it just gets overpowered when you Monty Haul a campaign, plus let people buy scrolls and wand without any real restrictions, and let characters get stat and skill bonus up the wazoo. Yep I said wazoo!

Frodo is nice and all but he would have had a GM looking over the game to keep things in line. We don't have that here.

binnsr
01-16-2008, 12:44 AM
Im pretty sure you cant drink a hero pot at level 1

yep .. those are lvl4 .. i'll adjust the numbers

ChaelaAnne
01-16-2008, 12:57 AM
I think that the biggest thing that we all agree on is that the UMD restrictions in this game are to help make up for the human aspect of PnP. I mean, a DM can control what they put into your hands. The game doesn't really have an AI that can make up for that.

Frankly, there is such a big gap between spellcasters and players with no UMD. (Fighters, and what not). Allowing them the chance to use level 14 items when someone who doesn't have a UMD that would allow for that isn't really fair. I mean, I'm a straight up beat the **** outta things fighter, I have no UMD, and are better off using my skill points for other things. I'm sometimes treated like a second class citizan by spellcasters and clerics as is, without giving them the huge advantage of having better gear and being able to use class and race specific stuff.

Just my two cents.

Westerner
01-16-2008, 04:55 PM
Many would say that the ready availability of wands and scrolls is already overpowering. Higher level versions do exist as random drops (and consequently can be found on the AH), but making them available for general vendor purchase is too much. Possibly some favor reward that would let you buy limited quantitites would be acceptable, but I doubt if we'll see this in any form anytime soon.
Since offensive UMD is not effective b/c of low save DC's, we're mainly talking improved duration of buff spells.

If I can scroll a greater heroism at caster level 11, it's not unbalancing to also be able to scroll a 5-minute shield. And in Mod6, with casters getting 8th level spells, a 100-point stoneskin UMD doesn't seem out of whack either. With scrolls limited to minimum caster level only in the shops, you cap the effectiveness of UMD. To maintain balance, this cap should be revised upwards as level cap increases.

For example, make 10th caster level versions available of existing level 1-4 scrolls. UMD DC would be based on caster level 10 and these items would be ML 10 as well.

Kire
01-16-2008, 05:14 PM
Snip
Imagine a fighter running around with rr Vorpals, Smiters, and Disrupters at level 8! Most people at that point are running things like Threnal etc.. How fun would it be, that everytime you approach a reaver in Thernal, some UMD build comes by with his Banishing Rapier at level 8, and **poof** the reaver is gone is 2 hits :x I can tell you that from anyone who's not the person doing the banishing it's going to suck!

Uhm you do know that a rr epic is lvl 8? so a evasion tank can use a Banishing Rapier at lvl 8. My tank could of (if he would of had one =P) He used a rr vorp greatsword at 8.

~Kire

Vizzini
01-16-2008, 05:55 PM
Ok, so that would put rr epics at being useable at what.. Level 6?


Uhm you do know that a rr epic is lvl 8? so a evasion tank can use a Banishing Rapier at lvl 8. My tank could of (if he would of had one =P) He used a rr vorp greatsword at 8.

~Kire

Emili
01-17-2008, 07:04 AM
THis is silly... the ml is to keep the game level balanced - that's it. UMD is an overpowered skill... and they really should make the other skills or lack of both viable or detrimental given the case. As it is we're stuck with a handfull of skills and only a few are worth anything - they all should be worth something on an equal level and the lack of a skill should be a detriment to some.

In DnD umd has some very very tight restrictions... ie.) you cannot mimic two races or alignments at the same time, meaning you can put on a barcers rr dwarf, but to use that helm rr elf those bracers would have to come off, put on those chaos guards but to umd the +5 true chaos greataxe they'd have to come off, etc...

Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only)
Use this skill to activate magic

Check
You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

Use Magic Device DCs Task Use Magic Device DC
Activate blindly 25
Decipher a written spell 25 + spell level
Use a scroll 20 + caster level
Use a wand 20
Emulate a class feature 20
Emulate an ability score See text
Emulate a race 25
Emulate an alignment 30
Activate Blindly
Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.

Decipher a Written Spell
This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration.

Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

Emulate an Alignment
Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.

Emulate a Class Feature
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Emulate a Race
Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time.

Use a Scroll
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Use a Wand
Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

Action
None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

Try Again
Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

Special
You cannot take 10 with this skill.

You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks made to decipher spells on scrolls.

Attomic
01-20-2008, 09:36 AM
Sorry, but I shiver to think of the outcries of "Unbalanced!" if level restrictions were susceptible to UMD. Bad enough people want all other classes to be nerfed "for their own good" as things stand now; the screeching would rise to Ringwraith levels if this were to happen. ;)

Emili
01-20-2008, 09:27 PM
Ok, so that would put rr epics at being useable at what.. Level 6?

Aye... a +1 banishier rr halfling is a ML 8 ... with the op's rule becomes a ML 6. A +1 vorp a ml 10 bout an rr version is ml 8. So then a bards and rogues at lvl 2-4 would be able to use these should they make the changes the op requests... I'd be able to put a +5 resist item, +5 protect, +5 mith chain shirt and use near every armour/weapon/item in the game on a level 4-6 bard or boosted rogue? Does he forget the umd items have a ml? cartouch for another +3 umd for example ;-)